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[Tables]

Last night I dreamed that the new promo card was this:

(I don't remember name/cost)
Action
Play an action card from your hand.  If you have 6 or more copies of that card in play, play it another 6 times.

Pretty similar to this but what if it were something like, play an action card from your hand. Then play every copy of it currently in play. Possibly then, trash all copies of it. So um yeah quadratic throne room/king's court, why not?

[Kirian]

So having two young girls, Frozen is of course "the thing".

The song Let it Go is written in Ab major, with the intro in F minor.  Now five flats is pretty exotic to start.  But then you get to the end of the chorus and it's suddenly a bit dissonant, and that dissonance then continues into the bridge.  If you look at the notes out of context, it looks like a B major chord.  But no: the song has modulated down a double dominant to Gb, and that is a Cb major (IV) chord.

As far as I can tell, the entire point of the Cb major chords earlier than the bridge is to anticipate the modulation down, just for the purpose of a double dominant modulation halfway through the bridge.

and... is that brilliant use of chord technics or is it bad songwriting or is it just an analysis without any quality evaluation?

I'm going to vote for clever musical trick. Like the pun in Canterlot Wedding.

Which was...?

[silverspawn]

So having two young girls, Frozen is of course "the thing".

The song Let it Go is written in Ab major, with the intro in F minor.  Now five flats is pretty exotic to start.  But then you get to the end of the chorus and it's suddenly a bit dissonant, and that dissonance then continues into the bridge.  If you look at the notes out of context, it looks like a B major chord.  But no: the song has modulated down a double dominant to Gb, and that is a Cb major (IV) chord.

As far as I can tell, the entire point of the Cb major chords earlier than the bridge is to anticipate the modulation down, just for the purpose of a double dominant modulation halfway through the bridge.

and... is that brilliant use of chord technics or is it bad songwriting or is it just an analysis without any quality evaluation?

I'm going to vote for clever musical trick. Like the pun in Canterlot Wedding.

Which was...?

they played some sort of chord progression which is called a deceptive cadence

[ConMan]

I'm going to vote for clever musical trick. Like the pun in Canterlot Wedding.

Which was...?

they played some sort of chord progression which is called a deceptive cadence

Specifically, the reprise of BBBFF ends with a deceptive cadence, where the main version of it uses an authentic cadence. And apparently this was entirely intentional.

[Kirian]

and... is that brilliant use of chord technics or is it bad songwriting or is it just an analysis without any quality evaluation?

I'm going to vote for clever musical trick. Like the pun in Canterlot Wedding.

Which was...?

they played some sort of chord progression which is called a deceptive cadence

*googles*
*reads wikia*
*reads reddit*

That... is really, really awesome on the part of the composer.

[eHalcyon]

and... is that brilliant use of chord technics or is it bad songwriting or is it just an analysis without any quality evaluation?

I'm going to vote for clever musical trick. Like the pun in Canterlot Wedding.

Which was...?

they played some sort of chord progression which is called a deceptive cadence

*googles*
*reads wikia*
*reads reddit*

That... is really, really awesome on the part of the composer.

Links for the lazy?

[silverspawn]

and... is that brilliant use of chord technics or is it bad songwriting or is it just an analysis without any quality evaluation?

I'm going to vote for clever musical trick. Like the pun in Canterlot Wedding.

Which was...?

they played some sort of chord progression which is called a deceptive cadence

*googles*
*reads wikia*
*reads reddit*

That... is really, really awesome on the part of the composer.

Links for the lazy?

http://www.reddit.com/r/mylittlepony/comments/sm22p/a_spoiler_in_the_song/
https://twitter.com/dannyimusic/status/193926339043147777

[Tables]

(this stream of thought process actually happened)

I was watching a Dominion stream where the streamer had $6 in a Platinum game and 3 coin tokens, and went for Gold instead of Platinum. It made me think. What if there was a card that could let you spend coin tokens to permanently improve treasures? It would even put them back into your hand to spend at +1 this turn! Okay... not a very strong effect on it's own, so maybe it should be a cantrip. Let's go with: cost $2, cantrip, you may trash a treasure and pay 3 coin tokens to upgrade it into hand. Hm. Well it should really generate some coin tokens, that's awful. And what about kingdom treasures? Okay, maybe 2 coin tokens instead of cantrip. Let's see. Cost $2, +2 coin tokens, you may trash a treasure and pay any number of coin tokens, gain a treasure costing that much more into hand. Hm, seems okay, but 2 coin tokens is really good, and gaining to hand could make this strong. Probably bump this straight up to $5. What else? Hm, actually... why even limit it to treasures? So now we have...

It was at this point I stopped and realised I was about to create Butcher. But for a second, I thought I had an interesting coin token using mechanic. Ah well...

[markusin]

^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

[Minotaur]

^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.

[markusin]

^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.

I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

[Minotaur]

^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.

I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

Hmmm, Colony games are probably the reason it costs $7 in the first place...  Maybe that's the real problem with the card - it can come up in Province games.  :-/

[KingZog3]

^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.

I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

Hmmm, Colony games are probably the reason it costs $7 in the first place...  Maybe that's the real problem with the card - it can come up in Province games.  :-/

Cursing can come up in games with strong trashing. Or in games with Ambassador. That's not a point against them. Besides the fact that KC, Bank and Forge are still good in Province games.

[sudgy]

Cursing can come up in games with strong trashing. Or in games with Ambassador. That's not a point against them. Besides the fact that KC, Bank and Forge are still good in Province games. cards like Torturer, Ghost Ship, etc. that make people really mad

FTFY

[Minotaur]

^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.

I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

Hmmm, Colony games are probably the reason it costs $7 in the first place...  Maybe that's the real problem with the card - it can come up in Province games.  :-/

Cursing can come up in games with strong trashing. Or in games with Ambassador. That's not a point against them. Besides the fact that KC, Bank and Forge are still good in Province games.

Forge is a *lot* better than Expand at dealing with junk, and it's also better at turning mediocre cards into Provinces.  It whiffs as much as Expand does, in my experience, but at least its "successes" aren't just a Remodel you overpaid for half the time.  I might be able to Expand a $5 action into a Province, but then I might as well have the Gold I could've bought in my hand instead and play that action... And if I'm Expanding a Silver, Mine would be better... and if I'm expanding a Duchy, Rebuild is better... And if I want to clean up junk one piece per action, Altar is a lot better.  It's like the dim-witted big brother of Band of Misfits with a limp.  You'd probably have to be very careful with your deck composition not to walk into tons of hands where Expand is just a Remodel or a gimped $5 card.  Both Expand and Gold add $3 of value to your deck, but for me Expand is a lot more likely to whiff than a Gold - I need a big money hand with no +buy for that to happen, usually.

Really the main circumstance for Expand to be an automatic must-buy is if either Peddler or cost reduction engines are on the board.  (Or if it's the only trasher and I'm desperate)

I don't know if I'd ever get Bank in a Province game unless I could reasonably expect to draw $13 or more with a +buy.  At least that's sometimes doable.  If there's no +Buy or no way to build a big hand, I'm skipping it for Gold.

[LibraryAdventurer]

Poor Boy
$1 - Action
Nobody loves me. Do whatever. Nothing really matters to me.
-
If someone thinks they can love you and leave you to die, get out of here. If you do, headbang.



Po' Boy
$5 - Treasure
Worth 1 sandwhich.



Ex-Panda
$7 - Action
Trash a panda. Gain something else.

[pacovf]

Poor Boy
$1 - Action
Nobody loves me. Do whatever. Nothing really matters to me.
-
If someone thinks they can love you can leave you to die, get out of here. If you do, headbang.

Back in Black Market
4$ - Action
I'm just making my play. Don't try to push your luck, just get out of my way.


Man this is hard (as a rock).

[Tables]

Awarehouse
Action - $3
+3 cards
+1 action
Discard 3 cards. If you do, install two security cameras on the side of your house.

[navical]

GCHQ/NSA
Action $6
+1 Action
Look through your opponents' deck and discard pile. You may not reorder them unless you decide you may.

[Flip5ide]

Glowworms
Action $5
+1 Action
Reveal your hand, if there are no more Glowworms in your hand, +4 cards and gain a Glowworms.

[eHalcyon]

^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.

I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

Hmmm, Colony games are probably the reason it costs $7 in the first place...  Maybe that's the real problem with the card - it can come up in Province games.  :-/

Cursing can come up in games with strong trashing. Or in games with Ambassador. That's not a point against them. Besides the fact that KC, Bank and Forge are still good in Province games.

Forge is a *lot* better than Expand at dealing with junk, and it's also better at turning mediocre cards into Provinces.  It whiffs as much as Expand does, in my experience, but at least its "successes" aren't just a Remodel you overpaid for half the time.  I might be able to Expand a $5 action into a Province, but then I might as well have the Gold I could've bought in my hand instead and play that action... And if I'm Expanding a Silver, Mine would be better... and if I'm expanding a Duchy, Rebuild is better... And if I want to clean up junk one piece per action, Altar is a lot better.  It's like the dim-witted big brother of Band of Misfits with a limp.  You'd probably have to be very careful with your deck composition not to walk into tons of hands where Expand is just a Remodel or a gimped $5 card.  Both Expand and Gold add $3 of value to your deck, but for me Expand is a lot more likely to whiff than a Gold - I need a big money hand with no +buy for that to happen, usually.

Really the main circumstance for Expand to be an automatic must-buy is if either Peddler or cost reduction engines are on the board.  (Or if it's the only trasher and I'm desperate)

I don't know if I'd ever get Bank in a Province game unless I could reasonably expect to draw $13 or more with a +buy.  At least that's sometimes doable.  If there's no +Buy or no way to build a big hand, I'm skipping it for Gold.

Seriously, I linked logs to you a while back.  Expand is better than you think and it's clear that you just don't know how to play with it.

[Minotaur]

^ I think the Butcher mechanic is interesting and fun. The only problem is that it's already been done.

Edit: That kinda rhymes.

The funny thing is that if I had $7, I'd probably rather buy Butcher than Expand.  The $7 trashers are both really clumsy and often non-usable, and of the two, I tend to have better luck with Forge, though that's probably because $4 actions are less valuable than $4 actions, and because it's worth picking up in the absence of any other Chapel-like card.  It just feels really bad to draw a $7 card dead half the time, or at best in a situation where a Gold would do as much or more 2/3 of the time.  :-/

EDIT: Whoops, this isn't the Homage thread.  Anyway, I guess it's relevant here, because Butcher came up, and Butcher is a neat and flexible card.

I'd go for Forge over Butcher if I want mass trashing as I draw.

Expand? I like it in Colony games.

Hmmm, Colony games are probably the reason it costs $7 in the first place...  Maybe that's the real problem with the card - it can come up in Province games.  :-/

Cursing can come up in games with strong trashing. Or in games with Ambassador. That's not a point against them. Besides the fact that KC, Bank and Forge are still good in Province games.

Forge is a *lot* better than Expand at dealing with junk, and it's also better at turning mediocre cards into Provinces.  It whiffs as much as Expand does, in my experience, but at least its "successes" aren't just a Remodel you overpaid for half the time.  I might be able to Expand a $5 action into a Province, but then I might as well have the Gold I could've bought in my hand instead and play that action... And if I'm Expanding a Silver, Mine would be better... and if I'm expanding a Duchy, Rebuild is better... And if I want to clean up junk one piece per action, Altar is a lot better.  It's like the dim-witted big brother of Band of Misfits with a limp.  You'd probably have to be very careful with your deck composition not to walk into tons of hands where Expand is just a Remodel or a gimped $5 card.  Both Expand and Gold add $3 of value to your deck, but for me Expand is a lot more likely to whiff than a Gold - I need a big money hand with no +buy for that to happen, usually.

Really the main circumstance for Expand to be an automatic must-buy is if either Peddler or cost reduction engines are on the board.  (Or if it's the only trasher and I'm desperate)

I don't know if I'd ever get Bank in a Province game unless I could reasonably expect to draw $13 or more with a +buy.  At least that's sometimes doable.  If there's no +Buy or no way to build a big hand, I'm skipping it for Gold.

Seriously, I linked logs to you a while back.  Expand is better than you think and it's clear that you just don't know how to play with it.

Here, have another log where Stef uses Expand and Remodel.  Note that he uses Expand for the following:

Estate->Duchy
Watchtower->Gold
Saboteur->Province

No other card could have done all of those -- flexibility helps.

Mercenary and Mint were the two trashers in game one... One player used it as a Graverobber, and the other player could've done as well or better with a Gold and an Upgrade instead of two Expands.

Game 2 I guess is legitimate, but you could also probably find games where Stef won buying Scout, but no one comes running in to defend Scout, either.  In the second game, Stef had a Native Village megaturn with no +buy on the board, or else I doubt Expand would've been worth it.  A single +buy on the whole board probably would have made Gold better than Expand.

I just don't see how the wiki can say that Expand is usually bad, and you can agree that it's a sub-par card, and it's ok for everyone to bash on Scout all day, but when I post one meme about Expand, suddenly I'm confronted with three pages of Captain Edge Case.  So the wiki writer claims Expand is bad 2/3 of the time, and Scout is probably bad 80-90% of the time... What's the cutoff for being allowed to make a joke?

[eHalcyon]

Mercenary and Mint were the two trashers in game one... One player used it as a Graverobber, and the other player could've done as well or better with a Gold and an Upgrade instead of two Expands.

That's because Expand isn't a mass trasher nor an early-game card... SCSN also used Expand to trash Gold->Province, which can't be done with Graverobber.  Neither Upgrade nor Graverobber are on the board.  Even if Upgrade was around, Expand has a niche because of its price point.

Game 2 I guess is legitimate, but you could also probably find games where Stef won buying Scout, but no one comes running in to defend Scout, either.  In the second game, Stef had a Native Village megaturn with no +buy on the board, or else I doubt Expand would've been worth it.  A single +buy on the whole board probably would have made Gold better than Expand.

I invite you to look for logs with Scout wins.  I doubt you'll find many where Scout was important, whereas there are plenty where Expand is key.

I don't see where Stef has anything I'd call a megaturn, but sure -- lack of +Buy is a situation where Expand can be very important, to enable a multi-Province turn.  Maybe if there were +Buy then Expand would be less important (but note, you can't just assume that +Buy would automatically make Gold better than Expand).  So what?  The point is that Expand was good on this board, and it's good in other situations too.

I just don't see how the wiki can say that Expand is usually bad, and you can agree that it's a sub-par card, and it's ok for everyone to bash on Scout all day, but when I post one meme about Expand, suddenly I'm confronted with three pages of Captain Edge Case.  So the wiki writer claims Expand is bad 2/3 of the time, and Scout is probably bad 80-90% of the time... What's the cutoff for being allowed to make a joke?

Keep in mind that the wiki is based off of a pretty old article and that the wiki isn't definitive anyway.  Also note that it does say that Expand can be of value sometimes.

Your one meme was fine.  You got a bunch of edge cases and counter-examples because that is simply what happens on f.ds with anything that has even a bit of an edge case (and with a claim like yours, there were a lot of edge cases and a few regular cases as well).  But the discussion wouldn't have continued as it did if you were just joking.  You made statements about strategy beyond the initial joke, and you kept repeatedly bashing Expand as worthless in every game, even after Donald X chimed in that Expand has a strong effect.

Expand is weak-to-mediocre much of the time but is sometimes pretty good and occasionally game-winning.  On the other hand, Scout is worthless most of the time (much more than 90%) and it's game-winning pretty much never.  The Scout jokes are well deserved (and more f.ds meta jokes at this point than anything else).

Anyway, I apologize for beating this dead horse.  It's just maddening to me that people keep giving you examples and counter examples, yet I still see you dumping on Expand and ignoring everything that others are saying about it.

[KingZog3]

Ambasquerade-action- $3

Reveal a card from your hand. Each player may pass up to 2 copies of the revealed card to the player to their left. You may trash a card from your hand.

[silverspawn]

in my experience, expand is nowhere near as bad as scout, or saboteur. it's more a below average card, maybe somewhere near the top of the lowest quarter