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[theory]

Share your adventures in constructed ranked, or casual!

[ashersky]

Anyone have suggestions for great rankings of cards for constructed?  I use some Arena rankings, which are greatly helpful.  I feel like someone must have done a full list of all cards and ranked them by cost, like "Here are all 0-1 mana cost neutral commons, in rank order" and posted them somewhere.

[blueblimp]

Anyone have suggestions for great rankings of cards for constructed?  I use some Arena rankings, which are greatly helpful.  I feel like someone must have done a full list of all cards and ranked them by cost, like "Here are all 0-1 mana cost neutral commons, in rank order" and posted them somewhere.

That doesn't really make sense for constructed because the goodness of cards depends more on how well they fit into the deck than in arena. For example, Shieldbearer is a terrible arena card, and in most constructed decks it's really bad too, but in zoo it's good.

[Grujah]

Here is a quick rundown of what's played right now, if that helps. Neutral cards:

Edit: wait, I forgot souldbond stuff, I'll put it on bottom.

Other cards than these are rarely/never seen. Murlocks are only seen in dedicated deck, which ain't all that great.

1 drops
Argent Squire - 1 drop of choice of most decks, as it trades good with two 2/1s, and if you buff it it makes even better trades.
Leper Gnome - It's basically 2-4 damage for 1 mana, sometimes a lil more, usually aggressive deck run it.
Young Priestess - Zoo staple, any other agro deck that benefits from the effect.
Abusive Sargent - Zoo and similar very agressive deck that like good trades.
Shieldbearer - Zoo Staple.
Southsee Deckhand - Tempo Rogue.
Worgen Inflatrator - rarely seen, some players prefer this drop to other ones in agro decks. Like I saw some Shockadins that play it.
Elven Archer - anti-aggro tech.
Stonetusk - Hunter only.

2 Drops -
Thalnos - Anyone who can use +1 spellpower, which is many decks.
Ancent Watcher - Control decks, it comes in package with Defenders of Argust and..
Sunfury Protector - Control, see above.
Knife Juggler - Staple, any decks that can put out a lot of minions. Bonus points when it kills Leeroy before he attacks.
Dire Wolf Alpha - Aggro staple.
Wild Pyro - any deck that can cheat with it, i.e. Paladin/Druid/Priest control.
Loot Hoarder - Value creature, anybody who needs early body and draw power.
Faerie Dragon - when you need a 2 drop that doesn't die to early removal. Quite Decent.
Amani Berserker - Usually 1 of in Agro decks, it an be awkward to play against.
Ironbeak Owl - chapest neutral silence + trades. Played usually in deck that have to remove taunters.
Doomsayer - Freeze Mage/other low creature count controls.
Acidic - rarely, only those decks that get totally ripped by weaposn.
Bluegill - Aggro
Kobold Geomancer - if you see somebody play it, it's budget replacement for Thalnos.
Crocolisk - Midrange hunters. Trades favorable with 2/1s.

3 Drops
Harvest Golem - Super-value, anybody who can fit it.
Acoyle of Pain - those who can abuse it and need draw, i.e. Mage/Warrior Control.
Earthen Farseer - any deck that needs to surive a bit more, control and such. Mircle Rogue too.
Big Game Hunter - deck that don't have real removal (like druids) and need to get rid of big guys.
Arcane Golem - Finisher, if Leeroy is not nuff.
Injured Blademaster - Priests. Control ones.
Blood Knight - Meta-card, used when you think he has a lot of shields to steal.
Scarlet Crusader - Zoo, aggro.
Coldlight - some tempo Rogues, burn Mages, etc..
Mukla - some Hunters, some tempo Rogues..
Demolisher - Incrisingly popular in Druids.
Wolf Rider - aggro.
Shattered Sun - Zoo and zoo like.


4 Drops:
Leeroy - #1 favourite finisher, aggro, but basically anyone. Rogue cheats with it.
Defender of Argus - anybody who can fit it in, actually.
Twilight Drake - Handlock.
Dark Iron Dwarf - Zoo, aggro.
Violet Teacher - tokens.
Yeti - Those than need solid mid-game drops. Druid sometimes.
Sen'jin - same, but you also want to slow down aggro.


5 Drops -
Azure Drake - Everybody can use spell damage, good body and +1 card. Elite drop. Everybody play it.
Faceless - Usually control and other decks that can make huge minions and than copy them.
Gadgetan - Role player, Rogues mostly.
Harrison Jones - Control Warrior, I guess.
Kodo/Tiger - few midrange hunters, but those are dying out.

6 Drops -
Cairne - Elite drop. Midrange mostly.
Argent Commander - If you need to utility/burst.
Black Knight - see Big game hunter.
Sylvanas - some still run it, control decks.
Sunwalker - Hard to remove so he is played occasionally in slower decks, Midrange/control.

7+ Drops -
Geddon - control warrior.
Rag/Ysera - control finisher, Rag is more popular.
Alextrasza - Control. Freeze Mage/Warrior mostly.
Mountain/Molten Giant - Handlock.

Somebody else can do class cards.

[ashersky]

Thanks Grujah!

[Grujah]

I missed Sunwalker, I see him from time to time as he is hard to remove.

[Lekkit]

Two minor clarifications.

Farseer - any deck that needs to surive a bit more, control and such.

Earthen Ring, not Thrallmar.

Sunfury - Zoo and zoo like.

I think this is suposed to be Shattered Sun Cleric.

[Grujah]

Yup on both.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Minor additions/clarifications/disagreements:

2-drops:
Bloodsail Raider - More aggressive Warriors
Alchemist - Priest, to mess with attack power, and counter Shaman totems.
Mana Addict - some (weaker) versions of Miracle Rogue

3-drops:
MC tech - anti-zoo/shaman tech.
Imp Master - occassionally used in token Druid
Raging Worgen - some combo Warriors and Mages
Harvest Golem is only used as anti-aggro or if you need something sticky for buffs. Otherwise it's not that useful.
Coldlight is any "solitaire" decks where you don't really care about your opponent having cards. This is big combo like Miracle Rogue/Burn Mage, or all-out aggro.
Mukla is a risky but powerful play in tempo decks, so it shows up in some Warlocks as well.

4-drops:
Inventor - deck thinning with a body, sometimes in Miracle
Spellbreaker - sometimes in Watcher decks for more activators. Rarely in control decks as anti-Cairne

5-drops:
Nightblade - face Warrior
Abomination - rare anti-aggro
Venture Co. Mercenary - mostly only used by me, but it's great for control decks that don't hate the turn-after tempo loss. It serves as an extra threat in the control matchups, giving you an edge in the threats vs removals battle, while still being cheap enough to not waste hand space vs more aggresive decks.

6-drops:
Sylvanas - usually only if you have some combo with it, like Shield Slam or SW:Death

7+-drops:
Malygos - Spell Power Rogue
Giants are also used in other control decks

Oh and Murlocs:
The main ones used that haven't been mentioned are Murk-eye, Warleader, Seer, Tidecaller, and Tidehunter.

[Grujah]

Alchemist all sometimes with Mana Addict, as you can cheat and set Mana Addict's buffs to be permanent.

I skipped some of those on purpose, but sure.

[KingZog3]

I use Venture Co. as well, but in my Priest deck that I don't play in ranked.

[Obi Wan Bonogi]

The decklists from last weekend's Dreamhack tournament are out: http://ihearthu.com/dreamhack-summer-group-stage-decklists/

[Grujah]

Hmm... some standard stuff, but there are a few interesting lists that I might try out.

Amaz actually played Facehunter, fun

[Obi Wan Bonogi]

Yeah, it was cool to see that a couple of the guys who went against the grain were the ones that ended up in the finals, AMAZ with the only priest and RDU with the only top 8 mage.

[ashersky]

Just played a level 17 Hunter in Ranked who dropped a Baron Geddon, Illidan, Alexstraza, and Cairne.

I beat him with my no legendary, mostly commons Control Pally deck.

That was nice.

[KingZog3]

Just played a level 17 Hunter in Ranked who dropped a Baron Geddon, Illidan, Alexstraza, and Cairne.

I beat him with my no legendary, mostly commons Control Pally deck.

That was nice.

Just goes to show that you can have tons of legendaries, but without actually thinking about your deck they are just as dead as anything else.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Kodo/Tiger - few midrange hunters, but those are dying out.

I missed this one, but Kodos also show up a bunch of other places as anti-zoo/shaman tech.

[KingZog3]

I just played a Priest vs. Priest where I had a Northshire on the board, and all my minions were damaged from my Wild Pyromancer. I have full hand and my opponent play Circle of Healing to burn through like, 8 cards of mine. It gave me a 29-2 Light Wardern, which he had to Shadow Word: Death. Still won easily, but it was pretty interesting.

[KingZog3]

Another Priest laugh, I just thoughtstole two Thouthsteals.

[Grujah]

Another Priest laugh, I just thoughtstole two Thouthsteals.

Amaz would be overjoyed.

I mean, TS is the best card in the game

[KingZog3]

Another Priest laugh, I just thoughtstole two Thouthsteals.

Amaz would be overjoyed.

I mean, TS is the best card in the game

It has it's moments, that's for sure.

EDIT: Like the Golden Alakir I just stole.

[Obi Wan Bonogi]

Woo, I made legend! 

I had made it up to mid rank 1 three times with my goofy mage deck but couldn't break through the last few games.  So after falling back to rank 3 I loaded up my fairly standard Shaman deck and went on a hot streak. 

I haven't been running Unbound Elementals.  The borderline cards I was running were 2x Harvest Golem, 1x Chilwind, 1x Senjin, 1x Defender of Arg, 1x Argent Commander.    I feel like Shaman is where Druid used to be in that it has mostly solid mathups but is slightly under the radar.  It helps Shaman that Miracle Rogue is losing popularity.  Druid is the deck to beat right now.  I'm not sure that Shaman is the answer to druid but it's certainly not the worst choice. 

[Grujah]

Congrats!!! Rank 2* is the best I've managed so far.

 Yeah, I agree on your definition of shaman.

[KingZog3]

My current ranked deck is a Shaman deck and it's pretty solid. With the right opening cards you get get passed Innervated stuff, and Hex is good for large drops that Druid can put out. I'm pretty sure the worst matchup is against Hunter, but they lost a lot of popularity after the UTH nerf.

[ashersky]

My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

[KingZog3]

My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

[Grujah]

My current ranked deck is a Shaman deck and it's pretty solid. With the right opening cards you get get passed Innervated stuff, and Hex is good for large drops that Druid can put out. I'm pretty sure the worst matchup is against Hunter, but they lost a lot of popularity after the UTH nerf.

Hunters are quite rare now.

My currently "main" deck is, I've just realized, the same one that ek0p played on DH.
Rogue one: http://ihearthu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/EKOP.png

Deck needs a bit play to get used to, but is much fun, and more consistant than I expected. I believe that the worst matchup is Warlock as feeding him cards is a way bigger liability than usual.

[ashersky]

My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.

[markusin]

My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.

Yeah I wasn't completely sold on tracking until I appreciated its deck thinning/sifting. That's something Hunter can really use. Even Flare is essentially a 1-mana cantrip. One less stop card to get in the way of your combo cards. If Flare's other effects come into play, all the better.

[KingZog3]

My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.

Yeah I wasn't completely sold on tracking until I appreciated its deck thinning/sifting. That's something Hunter can really use. Even Flare is essentially a 1-mana cantrip. One less stop card to get in the way of your combo cards. If Flare's other effects come into play, all the better.

If Flare destroys a secret you're in the money. Like, wow it's good. but otherwise I'm not convinced it's much good in a deck, even for the deck thinning.

[ashersky]

My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.

Yeah I wasn't completely sold on tracking until I appreciated its deck thinning/sifting. That's something Hunter can really use. Even Flare is essentially a 1-mana cantrip. One less stop card to get in the way of your combo cards. If Flare's other effects come into play, all the better.

If Flare destroys a secret you're in the money. Like, wow it's good. but otherwise I'm not convinced it's much good in a deck, even for the deck thinning.

I don't run it, but I've seen a lot of Hunters with it.  Seems situational, like Ooze, except not as awesome as Oozing a huge weapon.

[KingZog3]

My current, most successful Ranked deck is 3-Mana UTH Trap Hunter.  With the right draw, it's pretty amazing.  It struggles against control decks or other decks with very few minions, since it really depends on Starving Buzzard + UTH to go off.

You can tell when you are playing someone who isn't super familiar with Hunter decks, though.  Dropping four minions with 2 or less life right before attacking me and I have a trap set?  Shoulda tested for Explosive Trap.

Yeah it's pretty brutal the first few times until you learn to check for secrets. the best is opponent plays Buzzard and secret, and I use a spell to kill the Buzzard. Yay, 3 1/1's at the wrong time.

One of the best lessons I've learned in playing HS is when not to play your cards.  Sometimes you just have to use your UTH to clear the board, but if you build a deck around combos, wait for the combos.  Mulligan hard, don't be afraid.  I thought Tracking was always a sort of crappy card, but when you just need one card to make things happen, go for it.

Yeah I wasn't completely sold on tracking until I appreciated its deck thinning/sifting. That's something Hunter can really use. Even Flare is essentially a 1-mana cantrip. One less stop card to get in the way of your combo cards. If Flare's other effects come into play, all the better.

If Flare destroys a secret you're in the money. Like, wow it's good. but otherwise I'm not convinced it's much good in a deck, even for the deck thinning.

I don't run it, but I've seen a lot of Hunters with it.  Seems situational, like Ooze, except not as awesome as Oozing a huge weapon.

Except there is always the chance to get 2 secrets. It's fun . And unstealthing things too. Conceal mrs Rogue? I don't think so.

[Grujah]

You play Flare as a one-of. You usually do not have A T1 play in hunter decks so you just play it out against most matchups.

Against Hunter or Mage (esp. Freeze Mage with Ice Blocks) it is difference between victory or defeat.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't run [Flare], but I've seen a lot of Hunters with it.  Seems situational, like Ooze, except not as awesome as Oozing a huge weapon.

It's not really like Ooze, because there is very little risk/variance. Ooze either is a huge blowout vs a weapon, or just a 3/2, which is pretty useless in a lot of decks. Flare almost always just purely thins the deck. You have 1 spare mana at some point, and you cycle it. And then when you see a deck where you can get value, you can save it instead. But even then, you probably just cycle it if you get the chance, since whatever you would save it for is usually not that big of a deal (except Ice Block).

[Grujah]

Jeez, I have to share this match!

Playing as Coldlight Rogue. I go first, vs a Rogue (Miracle), keeping Mukla and Leper Gnome, mulling into Sap.
His life in brackets, my life is irrelevant.

T1. Me - Leper Gnome, He -  Backstab. (28).
T2. Me - Weapon, attack, He - the same (27).
T3. Me - Mukla, attack for 1, He - Preparation, Fan of Knives, Sap (26)
T4. Me - Mukla! He -Gnomish Inventor, Coin, Banana (He's hands are full and needs to get rid of stuff)
T5. Me - Sap, Arcane Golem, Attack for 9, Shadowstep, He - Auctioneer, Banana, maybe some irrelevant stuff. (17)
T6  Me - Golem (for 1), Coldlight, Kill his actioneer with Sap as his hand is full, attack for 9. He - I GIVE UP. (9)

Such a priceless game. 

[chairs]

I'd love to have one of you guys look over my cards and tell me what I can do to not be shite at this game.

[KingZog3]

I'd love to have one of you guys look over my cards and tell me what I can do to not be shite at this game.

What's you username and #? I'll add you and we can play a game or two and I can tell you what's up. Easy things you might be doing wrong are things like hitting the other person's hero instead of killing minions, or picking too many high cost cards for your decks. I have no idea otherwise what you maybe doing wrong.

[Drab Emordnilap]

I'd love to have one of you guys look over my cards and tell me what I can do to not be shite at this game.

I wish there was game logs that could be output. The only way to really get a full idea is to have someone watch over your shoulder, either by having someone literally there, or capturing screen output.

[ashersky]

Is "Playing Your Opponent's Cards Priest" a thing?  I've faced multiple priests in constructed running the cardstealing cards and using my cards against me.  There's the "random card from hand," "two random cards from deck," and "one random minion directly into play" cards for a total of 8 of my cards played against me.

It seems inconsistent at best to base a deck around, though.

[Grujah]

No it is not. Mind Vision and Mind Games aren't really played. (Outside of fun decks such as "Randuin" ).

Now, Thoughtsteal is. It is actually good. Watch some Amaz's videos to see it at it's best.
It IS a quirky card, though.
It's basically Arcane Intellect with pros and cons.
Sure, it's "less consistent" and can whiff completely by drawing unplayables, but it's rare.

OTOH..
There is a strategic advantage in knowing that certain cads are still in opponent's deck and not in hand. Especially when they have one big finisher that you need to worry about (Grommash, Force of Nature).
Drawing from their deck usually gives you decent stuff that you actually need. For example, if you are playing against a control, you are more likely to get lategame stuff, value stuff against midrange, cheap bodies for trade vs aggro (though it's at it's worst against aggro decks).
Having cards in your deck that aren't in your class is beneficial. It gives you more potential outs (before and after you cast TS). It makes people play around more stuff than usual, or get punished for it. Gives you access to things that you really need but cant have (weapons, for example), thus making you somewhat more versatile.
In lategame, versus slower decks, it virtually increases your decksize (cuz you draw two but do not lose cards from deck), which means that fatigue hits you later (you get to see/play 34 cards before fatigue hits, your opponent 30), which can be important.


It's not like "leagues better than Arcane Intellect" but it has its advantages.

[Grujah]

Ended up Rank 3. Not completely satisfied, but not bad at all.

[blueblimp]

Ended up Rank 3. Not completely satisfied, but not bad at all.

I dug in and zoo'd to legend just to see whether I could do it. Took 81 games to get there from high rank 7.

[Grujah]

Great job!

I cant stand playing Zoo, though I do have it. I also need a better build.
I played, from most to least:
Coldlight Rogue
Token Shaman
Paladin Weenies (Zoo/Aggro)

Though I pretty much benched shaman now.

(And very little of Aggro Mage, Midrange Hunter and Zoolock).

[ycz6]

Well, it took me four tries, but I finally won a game in Casual with this deck:

2x Deadly Poison
2x Grimscale Oracle
2x Murloc Tidecaller
2x Southsea Deckhand
1x Blade Flurry
2x Bloodsail Raider
2x Bluegill Warrior
2x Captain's Parrot
2x Murloc Tidehunter
2x Coldlight Oracle
2x Coldlight Seer
1x Murloc Warleader (I only have one )
2x Southsea Captain
1x Leeroy Jenkins
1x Old Murk-Eye
1x Assassin's Blade
1x Captain Greenskin
2x Sprint

I should clarify that the game I won was because my opponent disconnected and forfeited before the mulligan.

---

Edit: Okay, just won a game legit with that deck, against a Hunter. I think the pivotal moment was when I played Murloc Tidecaller + Murloc Tidehunter + Murloc Tidehunter on turn 5 and he didn't play UTH.

[Grujah]

Why Rogue with Murlocks?

[HiveMindEmulator]

Ended up Rank 3. Not completely satisfied, but not bad at all.

I dug in and zoo'd to legend just to see whether I could do it. Took 81 games to get there from high rank 7.

That's pretty impressive. You must have gone something like 55-26?

[blueblimp]

Ended up Rank 3. Not completely satisfied, but not bad at all.

I dug in and zoo'd to legend just to see whether I could do it. Took 81 games to get there from high rank 7.

That's pretty impressive. You must have gone something like 55-26?

Here are the per-rank stats from when I started tracking. (Once or twice I forgot to immediately notate down when I advanced rank, so they might be slightly off due to guessing when it switched over.) Looks like it was actually 80 games. Otherwise, your estimated record would be dead on. Nice.

Rank 7: 3-2
Rank 6: 3-0
Rank 5: 4-0
Rank 4: 7-2
Rank 3 (first session): 13-11
Rank 3 (second session): 4-1
Rank 2: 7-2
Rank 1 (first session): 10-8
Rank 1 (second session): 3-0

Total: 54-26

At rank 3 and rank 1, when I sensed that the competition was getting tougher, I took a break and tried again at a different time of day, which seemed to help a lot.

The deck is exactly Kolento's last published zoo: http://imgur.com/a/zDZCM#5. That's from April, so I don't know whether it's considered a good list anymore.

[Obi Wan Bonogi]

Finally broke down, cleaned out the binder, and dropped 4k dust to build Miracle Rogue!   AhhhhHHhhH

If you can't beat 'em join 'em, right?  (I hate myself)

[Grujah]

Finally broke down, cleaned out the binder, and dropped 4k dust to build Miracle Rogue!   AhhhhHHhhH

If you can't beat 'em join 'em, right?  (I hate myself)

I'll have to do this sooner or later, as I've opened two golden Gadgetan Engineers that I don't want to go to waste

[blueblimp]

Anyone know how ranked matchmaking works between legend and non-legend? For non-legend, I've read that they just try to match similarly-ranked players together, and I assume it's the same for legend (except using some kind of MMR instead of the star-and-rank system). But what are they doing when pairing legend and non-legend?

[KingZog3]

Anyone know how ranked matchmaking works between legend and non-legend? For non-legend, I've read that they just try to match similarly-ranked players together, and I assume it's the same for legend (except using some kind of MMR instead of the star-and-rank system). But what are they doing when pairing legend and non-legend?

My guess is that there is also a wait time factor, where they want to reduce waiting time to play. So they pair you a legend player.

[Grujah]

Is it just me or do these Control Paladins have no ways to beat Zoo whatsoever?

[KingZog3]

Is it just me or do these Control Paladins have no ways to beat Zoo whatsoever?

Consecration? Lot's of 1/1 minoins? Other than that I don't know.

[Grujah]

I've been steamrolling them.

Consecration is easiest Wrath to play around (much easier than anything that Freeze Mage or Handlock have). 1/1s never trade up.

[KingZog3]

I've been steamrolling them.

Consecration is easiest Wrath to play around (much easier than anything that Freeze Mage or Handlock have). 1/1s never trade up.

I know they won't trade up. Did you first sentence mean Consecration is easier to play around? or that Wrath is easier to play around?

[HiveMindEmulator]

I've been steamrolling them.

Consecration is easiest Wrath to play around (much easier than anything that Freeze Mage or Handlock have). 1/1s never trade up.

I know they won't trade up. Did you first sentence mean Consecration is easier to play around? or that Wrath is easier to play around?

I think by Wrath he meant mass removal.

And I think the main anti-zoo tools Paladin runs are Pyro, Equality, a lot of heal (including Truesilver) and often Kodo. But it's uphill, because Paladin isn't good at establishing an early board presence.

[KingZog3]

How do the aggro Paladins compare to Zoo? I feel like it's silly to rely on Divine Favour for draw when you could just be a Warlock and have it all the time.

[HiveMindEmulator]

How do the aggro Paladins compare to Zoo? I feel like it's silly to rely on Divine Favour for draw when you could just be a Warlock and have it all the time.

It's a totally different kind of deck. It's pure aggro, like face hunter or rogue. As a result, it's much better against things like miracle rogue. People also play aggro warlock, but that's a little worse, as it has no good way of dealing with taunt.

[blueblimp]

How do the aggro Paladins compare to Zoo? I feel like it's silly to rely on Divine Favour for draw when you could just be a Warlock and have it all the time.

It's a totally different kind of deck. It's pure aggro, like face hunter or rogue. As a result, it's much better against things like miracle rogue. People also play aggro warlock, but that's a little worse, as it has no good way of dealing with taunt.

When playing Miracle Rogue, I feel like aggro Paladin is usually an easy win, provided that you keep in mind to be wasteful with your cards so that the Paladin can't play a huge Divine Favour. The Rogue hero power easily keeps the 1/1s from getting out of control, and without a big Divine Favour, they run out of cards. Warlock zoo (the board control version) is a harder matchup, although I think still favoured for the Rogue.

[ycz6]

I've been steamrolling them.

Consecration is easiest Wrath to play around (much easier than anything that Freeze Mage or Handlock have). 1/1s never trade up.

I know they won't trade up. Did you first sentence mean Consecration is easier to play around? or that Wrath is easier to play around?

I think by Wrath he meant mass removal.

That is a confusing term to use in the context of HS.

[Grujah]

Yeah, Hivemind is probably right, he has trouble having early presence so you can just hit face.

If he hits 5/6 guy that restores health that can be a problem, but other heals are not that bad.
Pyro/Equi hits hard but it's not like you cannot get back, getting back is what you are good at.

@ycz6 - Well, Wrath or Verdict as a word for mass removal is so rooted now that I cannot help it


In other news,
A zoo list just played Siphon Soul on me.
What the hell?
And it's rank 4.

[KingZog3]

In other news,
A zoo list just played Siphon Soul on me.
What the hell?
And it's rank 4.

Bahahaha. Did you lose because of it?

[Grujah]

No, I did not.

I mean, he did go for face instead of trade and did play Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players) but when turn 6 he Life Taped and ended his turn with 3 cards in hand (and against a board of a few creatures) I was.. surprised, to say at least. But than Siphon Soul next turn was even more surprising.

I've seen Argent Commanders and Black Knights, but Siphon Soul? Wow.

[KingZog3]

No, I did not.

I mean, he did go for face instead of trade and did play Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players) but when turn 6 he Life Taped and ended his turn with 3 cards in hand (and against a board of a few creatures) I was.. surprised, to say at least. But than Siphon Soul next turn was even more surprising.

I've seen Argent Commanders and Black Knights, but Siphon Soul? Wow.

I guess argent is used as a replacement for doomguard. Never seen black knight in a zoo deck.

[HiveMindEmulator]

At some point it stops being zoo, and starts being mid-range...

[KingZog3]

At some point it stops being zoo, and starts being mid-range...

Except there aren't really any mid range warlocks

[Grujah]

No, I did not.

I mean, he did go for face instead of trade and did play Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players) but when turn 6 he Life Taped and ended his turn with 3 cards in hand (and against a board of a few creatures) I was.. surprised, to say at least. But than Siphon Soul next turn was even more surprising.

I've seen Argent Commanders and Black Knights, but Siphon Soul? Wow.

I guess argent is used as a replacement for doomguard. Never seen black knight in a zoo deck.

Nah, I've seen Argent in adition to doomguard. I mean, sure, it trades very well, but 6 mana is very high for that deck. Not too thrilled.

I've seen TBK in the most recent tournament, one that was hosted by Bob (Numbericable Cup or something like that).

[blueblimp]

Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players)

Isn't Leper Gnome just a sign of a more face-oriented zoo as opposed to the standard board control-oriented zoo? Board control must be a stronger approach since that's how top players focus their zoo decks, but it seems to me that in certain matchups face zoo might do better. e.g. Against Rogue, maybe putting the additional pressure on their life total is a good thing.

[Grujah]

Yeah, I guess you do have a better matchup against zoo, but Leper Gnome goes against the philosophy of Zoo (and I've made Leper Gnome mistake before).

I mean, sure, you can play it if you want more damage to the face, but like any other one drop provides way better value.

And FWIW, I see much less rogues on EU recently.

30/17/13/10 for Lock/Druid/Rogue/Warrior according to my stats. (this season).

[theory]

No, I did not.

I mean, he did go for face instead of trade and did play Leper Gnome (and those are signs of bad decks/players) but when turn 6 he Life Taped and ended his turn with 3 cards in hand (and against a board of a few creatures) I was.. surprised, to say at least. But than Siphon Soul next turn was even more surprising.

I've seen Argent Commanders and Black Knights, but Siphon Soul? Wow.

I guess argent is used as a replacement for doomguard. Never seen black knight in a zoo deck.

Nah, I've seen Argent in adition to doomguard. I mean, sure, it trades very well, but 6 mana is very high for that deck. Not too thrilled.

I really don't like it.  Drawing it with your Doomguard really stinks.

[HiveMindEmulator]

At some point it stops being zoo, and starts being mid-range...

Except there aren't really any mid range warlocks

Not if you insist of calling them all "zoo". But if the deck curve is really going all the way to 6, with 3+ cards up there, it's not really zoo anymore...

[Grujah]

I never understood why is it called Zoo anyway.

It has no cats, apes or lions. Not even elephants or boars.

[Titandrake]

I used to run 1x Siphon Soul in my board control Warlock, because there weren't that many ways to deal with big taunts in the way. In retrospect, Power Overwhelming is probably good enough, and Doomguard can break through a lot of stuff.

[Grujah]

Thing is you can almost all the time trade with anything efficiently. Occasionally Sunwalker or 5/10 Tree will be a problem where you have to trade badly. I do not think that varants Siphon Soul.

[blueblimp]

Any 5+ mana card is going to get discarded by Soulfire or Doomguard too much to really be useful, I think.

[blueblimp]

Yeah, I guess you do have a better matchup against zoo, but Leper Gnome goes against the philosophy of Zoo (and I've made Leper Gnome mistake before).

What I mean is, while yes standard zoo is focused on board control and Leper Gnome does not help much with that (apart from being a 1-drop), with some changes the deck can increase its focus on face damage, and there Leper Gnome fits well, such as this: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/458017-eroms-16hp-lock-guide. (I haven't tried it, so I can't say whether it's any good.) Maybe such a deck wouldn't correctly be called "zoo".

[Grujah]

Yeah, when you have DG in hand, you pretty much want to draw something that you can play so that you can slam DG (like, 2 drop if you have 7 mana).

[ashersky]

Yeah, I guess you do have a better matchup against zoo, but Leper Gnome goes against the philosophy of Zoo (and I've made Leper Gnome mistake before).

What I mean is, while yes standard zoo is focused on board control and Leper Gnome does not help much with that (apart from being a 1-drop), with some changes the deck can increase its focus on face damage, and there Leper Gnome fits well, such as this: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/458017-eroms-16hp-lock-guide. (I haven't tried it, so I can't say whether it's any good.) Maybe such a deck wouldn't correctly be called "zoo".

Just tried it out, had to replace Leeroy with DG and one juggler.  Went 4-1 so far.

[KingZog3]

Yeah, I guess you do have a better matchup against zoo, but Leper Gnome goes against the philosophy of Zoo (and I've made Leper Gnome mistake before).

What I mean is, while yes standard zoo is focused on board control and Leper Gnome does not help much with that (apart from being a 1-drop), with some changes the deck can increase its focus on face damage, and there Leper Gnome fits well, such as this: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/458017-eroms-16hp-lock-guide. (I haven't tried it, so I can't say whether it's any good.) Maybe such a deck wouldn't correctly be called "zoo".

I've been playing some casual where I've seen tons of zoo decks. I'm playing Priest in casual, and I always beat "zoo" decks that go for the face, while zoo decks that go for control are like playing a normal game.

[blueblimp]

An interested constructed trend in zoo is the replacement of Mortal Coil by Elven Archer. I say "trend" because if you look at older zoo decks, they would typically run Mortal Coil, such as in Reynad's original popularization from February and the zoo Kolento was playing in April, whereas Kolento's recent deck runs Archer instead.

I didn't realize before how similar these two cards are, but if you think of them as both doing 1 targeted damage, then it makes sense. Here's a comparison.

Legal targets for 1 damage
Mortal Coil: Minions only.
Archer: Any character.
Note: 1 face damage is only rarely useful, but it does sometimes win games.
Edge: Archer slightly.

Bonus (beyond doing 1 damage)
Mortal Coil: Draw a card.
Elven Archer: Put a 1/1 on the board.
Note: Coil's bonus is basically Warlock's hero power, and Archer's bonus basically Paladin's hero power. Warlock's hero power is better, but since you're playing Warlock, you already have access to it.
Edge: About even.

Bonus condition
Mortal Coil: Must kill the target minion.
Elven Archer: Unconditional.
Note: There are two important cases where you may not be able to kill the minion with the damage: popping Divine Shield on 2+ health minions and activating your own Amani Berserkers. Otherwise, you can order the damage so that the Coil kills the minion. Divine Shield on 2+ health minions is relevant in the mirror (because of buffs) and against decks running Sunwalkers. (Against an empty board is also a case but you usually don't want to play Archer in that situation unless you're trying to clear your hand for Doomguard/Soulfire.)
Edge: Archer easily.

[KingZog3]

I don't think Coil is good in Zoo decks, or at least it doesn't really help keep control of the board. You aren't searching for cards like in a handlock deck, you just need minion presence, so I agree that Archer easily beats Coil for typical zoo decks.

[blueblimp]

As I understand it, Coil is mostly in zoo to help with the mirror.

[Grujah]

Is control Rogue a thing?

Cuz a guy just assassinated my Doom Guard.
Nearly costed me the game.

[KingZog3]

Is control Rogue a thing?

Cuz a guy just assassinated my Doom Guard.
Nearly costed me the game.

My Rogue for doing quests is control ish. It does pretty well against Zoo with all the early Si;agent and backstab stuff +hero power. Plus yeah, killing those Zoomguards is fun.

[Grujah]

I've just hit


Playing zoolock, here's the list:


89-59 zoolock stats. (quite worse if I include other things I've played before zoolock this month).

[blueblimp]

Nice. Since you're running Amani Berserker, I propose replacing the coils with archers, since they can activate the berserker to trade with 5 health minions, but also based off the analysis in my earlier post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11325.msg399021#msg399021 that archer may be better in general.

[Grujah]

I didn't try it, so I'm just speculating, but Archer seems worse to me than Coil.

Ok, I mean, if you go with things that "one can do and other cant":

Archer:
Can pop shield and leave 1/1 body. (best vs Sunwalker)
Can activate Amani and leave 1/1 body. (though I only play 1 Amani)
Can shoot face.
Sometimes you have Coil and Doomguard/0 mana burn in hand and you don't really want to draw as you are going to discard that card anyway.

Coil:
Efficiently makes your deck 2 cards thinner (Flare effect) and can more  dig for that one card that you need (Doomguard/burn/Wolf/Sargent usualy). With hero power, you can dig for 3.
Can kill your own creature when you know your enemy is going to board-clear you to draw and card and get rid of what is usually a bad card in such matchups.


So, Archer seems to have a bit of a edge, but..
If you ignore these edge cases, and go for the primary use of the card (finish 1 hp enemies) which you do 90% of the time.. Coil wins hands down IMO.
I mean, Archer seems to be like a Coil that always draws WISP. And I don't want to draw wisp almost ever. You want to draw your strong cards.
Your comparison with Paladin/Lock powers is wrong -this doesn't cost you life, and Lock power IS WAY better in your deck, as your deck is made to abuse that power and to be able to put 2 strong cheap bodies each and every turn. Coil allows that. 1/1 is not a strong body.
And this is way more important that the little bit of versatility that Archer gives, I think.

As I said, this is without playing the card. I might try to to play it and prove myself wrong, but not sure. (I also didn't like Mukla in Zoo, FWIW).

[markusin]

Does anyone feel like you find harder opponents in Casual mode than in Ranked Mode? Ranked mode has a steadily increasing strength of players as you go up the ladder, but at Level 15 or so on ladder I find all sorts of crazy legendary decks in Casual, or at least decks that are no less standard-good than what you find on ladder.

Also, I finally got around to building a basic Mage deck to complete my quests. It ended up looking like this:


I'm quite surprised at how well it's done so far. I won 5 games in a row with it, bringing me from rank 14 to rank 11. 2-3 of those games were against Handlock. I'm guessing burn Mage plays favourably against Handlock?

I have no Idea why I didn't throw in an Azure Drake in there, but I'll add one somehow next time I play this deck. One thing I noticed is how good it feels to NOT go nuts powering the wyrm. There really is no need going Wyrm->Coin->Image on turn 1. If you need the extra attack, you can do Coin-Image next turn, but more likely the wyrm dies to frostbolt or wrath or something.

[Grujah]

I'd say that Burn Mage has favorable matchup against Handlock. Handlock's main thing is that he can get low HP and than put giants and taunt up, winning soonafter; Freeze Mage punishes that cuz his spells can finish up even through taunts.

[Drab Emordnilap]

I didn't try it, so I'm just speculating, but Archer seems worse to me than Coil.

Ok, I mean, if you go with things that "one can do and other cant":

Archer:
Can pop shield and leave 1/1 body. (best vs Sunwalker)
Can activate Amani and leave 1/1 body. (though I only play 1 Amani)
Can shoot face.
Sometimes you have Coil and Doomguard/0 mana burn in hand and you don't really want to draw as you are going to discard that card anyway.

Coil:
Efficiently makes your deck 2 cards thinner (Flare effect) and can more  dig for that one card that you need (Doomguard/burn/Wolf/Sargent usualy). With hero power, you can dig for 3.
Can kill your own creature when you know your enemy is going to board-clear you to draw and card and get rid of what is usually a bad card in such matchups.


So, Archer seems to have a bit of a edge, but..
If you ignore these edge cases, and go for the primary use of the card (finish 1 hp enemies) which you do 90% of the time.. Coil wins hands down IMO.
I mean, Archer seems to be like a Coil that always draws WISP. And I don't want to draw wisp almost ever. You want to draw your strong cards.
Your comparison with Paladin/Lock powers is wrong -this doesn't cost you life, and Lock power IS WAY better in your deck, as your deck is made to abuse that power and to be able to put 2 strong cheap bodies each and every turn. Coil allows that. 1/1 is not a strong body.
And this is way more important that the little bit of versatility that Archer gives, I think.

As I said, this is without playing the card. I might try to to play it and prove myself wrong, but not sure. (I also didn't like Mukla in Zoo, FWIW).

An activated Mortal Coil is better than Elvish Archer, but obviously an unactivated one is worse. Elvish Archer gets stuck in your hand less often.

Not to say it's always better. It depends on the deck and matchup. Honestly I would probably play one of each so that if you draw both you have more flexibility.

[markusin]

I'd say that Burn Mage has favorable matchup against Handlock. Handlock's main thing is that he can get low HP and than put giants and taunt up, winning soonafter; Freeze Mage punishes that cuz his spells can finish up even through taunts.

I was noticing that my wins vs. Handlock happened really quickly, like turn 6 or 7 (before even the possibility of Jaraxxus). My deck has more early game aggression (patially because I don't have many good late-game minions in my collection). The Warlock's own hero ability helps in getting the Warlock down to the dangerous HP<15 state. At that point, I can use Polymorph to get through 1 round of taunts and then next turn I can Freball/Frostbolt/HeroPower for the finish. The Faceless also finds lots of good targets against Handlock.

[blueblimp]

I mean, Archer seems to be like a Coil that always draws WISP. And I don't want to draw wisp almost ever. You want to draw your strong cards.

Very nice analysis. OK, this definitely convinces me that activated coil is better than archer.

About Mukla, even though I kinda like him in zoo, he's pretty marginal. There are a significant number of situations where I don't want to play him. The reason I keep him in is: he's great when played on curve except in the mirror, and he's great to drop when your opponent just wiped everything off the board, because he immediately re-establishes a hard-to-remove board presence.

[Grujah]

I agree with mostly everyhing about Mukla (on curve he is a monster, esp as you use other minions to trade with anything he puts, even buffed), but later in game there are too many situations when I find myself unwilling to play him, so I dropped him.

[ashersky]

Faced my very first Golden Hero today.  Golden Mage...rank 16?  How do you win 500 ranked and sit at 16?

[HiveMindEmulator]

Does anyone feel like you find harder opponents in Casual mode than in Ranked Mode? Ranked mode has a steadily increasing strength of players as you go up the ladder, but at Level 15 or so on ladder I find all sorts of crazy legendary decks in Casual, or at least decks that are no less standard-good than what you find on ladder.

Casual is much more unpredictable because high ranked players don't want to lose their stars playing crazy decks in ranked, but will play them in casual instead. ranked is a bunch of similar decks mostly.

Faced my very first Golden Hero today.  Golden Mage...rank 16?  How do you win 500 ranked and sit at 16?

Ranks reset every month. He probably played a lot in previous months but not that much yet this month.

[ashersky]

Faced my very first Golden Hero today.  Golden Mage...rank 16?  How do you win 500 ranked and sit at 16?

Ranks reset every month. He probably played a lot in previous months but not that much yet this month.

I thought that at first, but the month is 2/3 gone.  Maybe he was VLA.

[Grujah]

Does anyone feel like you find harder opponents in Casual mode than in Ranked Mode? Ranked mode has a steadily increasing strength of players as you go up the ladder, but at Level 15 or so on ladder I find all sorts of crazy legendary decks in Casual, or at least decks that are no less standard-good than what you find on ladder.

Casual is much more unpredictable because high ranked players don't want to lose their stars playing crazy decks in ranked, but will play them in casual instead. ranked is a bunch of similar decks mostly.

True this.
I use casual to test out new decks/play out decks that I like but are not as good/do quests with random decks.
(though now in legend I can do these things in ladder too )

[blueblimp]

To give some idea what the classes at NA high ranks look like this season, here are the stats from the games I played:

Code: [Select]

=== July 2014 Ranks 1-5 Class Distribution

Class Count Percent
Druid 48 25.5%
Hunter 5 2.7%
Mage 13 6.9%
Paladin 5 2.7%
Priest 1 0.5%
Rogue 53 28.2%
Shaman 12 6.4%
Warlock 38 20.2%
Warrior 13 6.9%

Total 188


[ashersky]

Is Coldlight Oracle for draw a thing?  Just had a Druid not otherwise using murlocs go Coldlight-Panda-Coldlight to draw 4 cards...for me too.

Drew lethal and killed him.

[ycz6]

I think there are some Druid decks which use Coldlight and Naturalize to try to get you to mill (discard) due to handsize. Not particularly common or good, AFAIK.

Edit:

[blueblimp]

Coldlight Oracle is a staple of the Backspace Rogue deck, which is ultra-aggressive and low-curve, relying on the Oracle to draw cards when it runs out. Oracle sometimes shows up in Miracle too to help vs Handlock.

The thing about Oracle is that it's only good if your deck spends cards much faster than your opponent's. If your deck and your opponent's deck spend cards at similar speeds, then the draw helps you both about equally, and meanwhile you spent 3 mana on a 2/2, so you're behind. For example, in a Backspace mirror, you really don't want to be the first to play Oracle if you can avoid it.

[ashersky]

I feel like defender of argus is a key card I don't have...

[theory]

Bonus (beyond doing 1 damage)
Mortal Coil: Draw a card.
Elven Archer: Put a 1/1 on the board.
Note: Coil's bonus is basically Warlock's hero power, and Archer's bonus basically Paladin's hero power. Warlock's hero power is better, but since you're playing Warlock, you already have access to it.
Edge: About even.

I feel like this is hugely advantageous in Coil's favor.  For example, Murloc Tidehunter is a 2/1 but if you swapped its power from "Summon a 1/1" to "Battlecry: draw a card" it loses an attack and turns into Novice Engineer.

[theory]

I feel like defender of argus is a key card I don't have...

If you plan on playing zoo, yeah, you need Defender of Argus.

[blueblimp]

Bonus (beyond doing 1 damage)
Mortal Coil: Draw a card.
Elven Archer: Put a 1/1 on the board.
Note: Coil's bonus is basically Warlock's hero power, and Archer's bonus basically Paladin's hero power. Warlock's hero power is better, but since you're playing Warlock, you already have access to it.
Edge: About even.

I feel like this is hugely advantageous in Coil's favor.  For example, Murloc Tidehunter is a 2/1 but if you swapped its power from "Summon a 1/1" to "Battlecry: draw a card" it loses an attack and turns into Novice Engineer.

I agree that in general drawing a card is much better than summoning a 1/1, but for Warlock specifically, there's an argument that the edge isn't as much (although I've come around to agreeing that drawing is still a bit better), for two reasons: one is that you can already draw cards using your hero power, so you're not as card-limited as other classes; the other is that you may want to clear cards from your hand to play Doomguard or Soulfire.

[ashersky]

I feel like defender of argus is a key card I don't have...

If you plan on playing zoo, yeah, you need Defender of Argus.

I'm playing a variation of the 16hp lock from liquidhearth.  In mirrors or against Zoo, I lose because of the dang taunts.

[ashersky]

Also opened Doomhammer recently.  My shammy skills are lacking.

[Titandrake]

Also opened Doomhammer recently.  My shammy skills are lacking.

Doomhammer's a fun card, especially with Rockbiter, but it's hard to see a Shaman deck working without Lightning Storm.

[KingZog3]

Also opened Doomhammer recently.  My shammy skills are lacking.

Doomhammer's a fun card, especially with Rockbiter, but it's hard to see a Shaman deck working without Lightning Storm.

I used Doomhammer for a while in my shaman deck, but I found it underwhelming. It's good with rockbiter, but otherwise you can't really hit minions because Shaman has no healing, and 4 face damage a turn isn't the best for a 5 drop with overload. I have Al'Akir which fills that spot well, and does many more things for his cost, and I've been doing a lot better with him then with Doomhammer.

[Kirian]

Well that was odd.

I just took out an Ice Queen mage--golden Alex, multiple golden cards and it looked like the standard build that Trump has used--with an aggro mage.

Is that just a bad matchup for freeze mage, or did I get insanely lucky?

[popsofctown]

Aggro Mage is a classical counter to freeze mage

[KingZog3]

I just had an 11 game win streak that brought me up to rank 11. I feel legend rank is coming this month.

[Grujah]

Backlight Rogue. Going vs Warlock.

T1 He passes. I play Leper Gnome
T2. He Life Taps. I assume Handlock, so I play Sinister Strike + Cold Blood. Unless he has Mortal Coil, he cannot remove it till turn 4, and even if he has, 4 damage is not that bad for 1 mana. I attack for 6.
T3. He plays Knife Juggler (obv not Handlock) + Void Walker. Misses my Leper. I Sap the Juggler and Eviscerate the Walker, going for 6 more (Walker is a bigger problem, I have to sack Leper if he replays it).
T4. He replays Knife Juggler, along with 2 Abusive Sargeants - both miss my Gnome. I feel sorry as he concedes after I dagger up, hit the Juggler and Bladeflurry. 

[Grujah]

Also I love this new tech of Lock playing Void Terrors, it's so satisfying to Sap those guys.

[KingZog3]

Also I love this new tech of Lock playing Void Terrors, it's so satisfying to Sap those guys.

It's annoying, but I'm ok with keeping my nerubian.

[Twistedarcher]

I've now played 9 zoo decks in a row on ladder.

[nkirbit]

So the card I was most excited about from Naxx finally came out... Reincarnate!  Here's the list I'm starting with, it's doing okay so far, although it certainly needs some more tweaks (I'm thinking about throwing Ragnaros in.  I also don't own Al'akir, although he'd probably have a place here.)  :

2x Earth Shock
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Rockbiter Weapon
2x Reincarnate
1x Bloodmage Thalnos
2x Flametongue Totem
2x Nerubian Egg
2x Feral Spirit
2x Hex
2x Lightning Storm
2x Unbound Elemental
1x Leeroy Jenkins
1x Senjin Shieldmasta
1x Doomhammer
2x Azure Drake
1x Cairne Bloodhoof
2x Fire Elemental
1x Sylvanas Windrunner

[Grujah]

I've now played 9 zoo decks in a row on ladder.

I feel for you. Samesies here.

[Grujah]

Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  )

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

[ashersky]

Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  )

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

Do you have Angry Chicken?  If not, you should craft 32 Angry Chickens.

[theory]

Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  )

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

Do you have Angry Chicken?  If not, you should craft 32 Angry Chickens.

That sounds like either a movie about a very large, very squawky jury OR a Zoo deck made by someone with a fundamental misunderstanding about what Zoo decks are.

[Twistedarcher]

Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  )

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

Alex + Thalnos, then you can play freeze mage!

[Grujah]

I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

[Twistedarcher]

I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

Are you supposed to play giants in freeze mage? I don't have them in the deck I built.

[Grujah]

Oh, you are right, rarely they are played. My bad.
I do lack 1 Doomsayer, but that's actually not a bad idea as those legendaries are playable in other decks too. Not as wide as Rag or Cairne, but .. fine.

[ashersky]

I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

I've opened 3 Ancients of Lore but zero War.

[Titandrake]

I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

I've opened 3 Ancients of Lore but zero War.

I mean, that's good - you can substitute Ironbark Protector for War if you need a fat taunt.

My epic luck is weird, but I've mostly gotten good ones - 2 Blood Knights, 1 Shadowform, Sea Giant. I'm still missing Wild Pyromancer though...

[HiveMindEmulator]

I only have 1/4 giants, unforunately.
I also really rally want to get Ancient of Lores. And I have such bad luck with epics, I opened only 1 of 4 giants and 0 of 4 Ancients, but I believe 4 or 5 freaking Spellbenders.

I've opened 3 Ancients of Lore but zero War.

Lore >> War. Basically every Druid deck uses 2x Lore. War is only if you're playing a high curve ramp deck.

[ashersky]

Bonus (beyond doing 1 damage)
Mortal Coil: Draw a card.
Elven Archer: Put a 1/1 on the board.
Note: Coil's bonus is basically Warlock's hero power, and Archer's bonus basically Paladin's hero power. Warlock's hero power is better, but since you're playing Warlock, you already have access to it.
Edge: About even.

I feel like this is hugely advantageous in Coil's favor.  For example, Murloc Tidehunter is a 2/1 but if you swapped its power from "Summon a 1/1" to "Battlecry: draw a card" it loses an attack and turns into Novice Engineer.

I agree that in general drawing a card is much better than summoning a 1/1, but for Warlock specifically, there's an argument that the edge isn't as much (although I've come around to agreeing that drawing is still a bit better), for two reasons: one is that you can already draw cards using your hero power, so you're not as card-limited as other classes; the other is that you may want to clear cards from your hand to play Doomguard or Soulfire.

I was thinking about this today on the bus.  It seems to me that Elven Archer is basically

Mage Hero Power + Paladin Hero Power for 1 mana.  Put that way, it seems very strong.

I know the argument between EA and MC is draw a card vs. token, but there are other ways to frame it, I think.

If you view MC is a minion-only limited mage power + Warlock Hero Power, it looks arguable either way.

[HiveMindEmulator]

^Well Coil is more like Mage Power + Warlock Power + Warrior Power...

[ashersky]

^Well Coil is more like Mage Power + Warlock Power + Warrior Power...

How is Coil like +2 armor?

[HiveMindEmulator]

Warlock Power + Warrior Power = net no health change and draw a card.

[Jorbles]

I just played a game against a control Warlock deck and it was really strange. I thought he had a Zoo deck with a bad mulligan when he opened with a solo Void Walker with no followup, but then he transitioned into neutral control cards. (Yeti, SSC, Senjin Shieldmaster, Gnomish Inventors)

The game itself ended up going really long with our minions just smashing into each other trying to eke out a small advantage. We were both drawing plenty of cards, him through his ability and me through a protected Mana Tide Totem and a Gadgetzan. We just kept trading cards without ever getting an advantage (at one point in the early game I would have probably lost if I hadn't summoned a lucky +1 Spellpower Totem before a Lightning Storm) until he made a mistake and left a Flame Elemental that he could have killed on the board. I followed it up with another creature and a Defender of Argus. He wiped the board with two Hellfires (who plays two Hellfires!?), but it also wiped his board presence and I was able to quickly take board control then.

Has anyone ever seen a Warlock deck like this? It gave my Shaman tempo/control deck a run for its money, but that was at least partially card draw luck.

Edit: I should add, I constantly had no idea what he was going to play next which made the game require significantly more grey matter than usual.

[KingZog3]

I just played a game against a control Warlock deck and it was really strange. I thought he had a Zoo deck with a bad mulligan when he opened with a solo Void Walker with no followup, but then he transitioned into neutral control cards. (Yeti, SSC, Senjin Shieldmaster, Gnomish Inventors)

The game itself ended up going really long with our minions just smashing into each other trying to eke out a small advantage. We were both drawing plenty of cards, him through his ability and me through a protected Mana Tide Totem and a Gadgetzan. We just kept trading cards without ever getting an advantage (at one point in the early game I would have probably lost if I hadn't summoned a lucky +1 Spellpower Totem before a Lightning Storm) until he made a mistake and left a Flame Elemental that he could have killed on the board. I followed it up with another creature and a Defender of Argus. He wiped the board with two Hellfires (who plays two Hellfires!?), but it also wiped his board presence and I was able to quickly take board control then.

Has anyone ever seen a Warlock deck like this? It gave my Shaman tempo/control deck a run for its money, but that was at least partially card draw luck.

Edit: I should add, I constantly had no idea what he was going to play next which made the game require significantly more grey matter than usual.

I've lost to decks that to completely defy all normal standards. There was a warrior deck that played Goldshire Footman, along with all kinds of weird low cards that no one uses, then two Brawls (what?) and some big minions, I think a Ragnaros. My Shaman deck, that has taken me to rank 8 one season, just couldn't handle it. I couldn't take into account a second brawl because I've never seen someone run two, especially when they start spamming crappy small minions at the beginning.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I just played a game against a control Warlock deck and it was really strange. I thought he had a Zoo deck with a bad mulligan when he opened with a solo Void Walker with no followup, but then he transitioned into neutral control cards. (Yeti, SSC, Senjin Shieldmaster, Gnomish Inventors)

Maybe he was playing the best Warlock deck he could make with all free cards.

(who plays two Hellfires!?)

A lot of people...

[Grujah]

Got ~3200 dust. (Can get aditional 1200 by disenchanting Nozdromu, Beast and Millhouse, but I dont wanna  )

What to get?
I lean towards Cairne and Ragnaros.

Here is what I am missing:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQ-8hbo9DEUUEoASZI-ccuTCTUajWiplrgqCuO1Dy2A/edit#gid=0

I think I'll just wait until Naxx ends, for meta to stabilize and than see what I like the most. Seems most reasonable.

[ycz6]

His board: Northshire Cleric, Nerubian Egg, Defender of Argus (2/2)
My board: Sylvanas (4 health and Ancestral Spirit)

His previous turn: Heal my Sylvanas from 2 to 4 to prevent me from suiciding it into his Argus.
My turn: Play Leeroy and Baron Rivendare. Kill the Egg with Leeroy so he summons a 4/4 Nerubian, suicide my Sylvanas into the Nerubian to steal his Cleric and Defender and summon two Sylvanases. Add insult to injury by getting a Healing Totem and drawing a card via his Cleric.

[Grujah]

I recently switched from midrange Hunter to something akin to Amaz's Control Paladin list:
http://i.imgur.com/yr3cY3Q.png

I don't have Harrison nor any Naxx cards so I replaced them with other stuff.
I also consider putting in second Acolyte of Pain as he proves himself to be fine, and crafting Ragnaros just so that can get games ended faster, as it can sometimes be such a bore to finish your opponent once you get in control.

[Jorbles]

Soooo this just happened:
http://i.imgur.com/Onl4Aw5.jpg?1?6454

The -6 is Baine #1 exploding to a Fireball. 5 Cairne's played in 1 game. "The eye's of the Earth Mother are upon us... all of us."

(No Bloodhoof's survived this bloody brawl, the last was turned into a sheep.)

[KingZog3]

Reincarnate+Kelthuzad. Why didn't I think of that...

[KingZog3]

How do I make it smaller?

[Awaclus]

How do I make it smaller?

Like this.

[KingZog3]

yay. Now I know

[KingZog3]

I did it!!!! Legend! Gaaah! So excited. All look at my amazing card back.

[Awaclus]

My aggro Paladin deck looks like this now, but I'm not sure about the 30th card. It's the second Bluegill Warrior right now, but I'm also considering a second Loot Hoarder or a Kobold Geomancer. What I'd really want in that slot is another Ironbeak Owl, but I don't have two, and crafting a common just feels wrong.

What should I do?

[Grujah]

Only 1 Divine Favor? I cannot justitify that!

[Titandrake]

I think Paladin aggro doesn't want to run Hammer of Wrath - it's not great tempo wise, and I'd think you wouldn't be able to use the extra card from it well enough, and it's not the best finisher.

You also really want the 2nd Divine Favor. If you have Coldlight, you may want to consider that over Hammer, but I could be wrong about the usefulness of 3 damage that goes over taunts.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think Paladin aggro doesn't want to run Hammer of Wrath - it's not great tempo wise, and I'd think you wouldn't be able to use the extra card from it well enough, and it's not the best finisher.

Why won't you be able to use the extra card well enough? The point of the deck is that most of the cards are low mana cost... Yes +card is not a great effect when you have Divine Favor, but you don't always have it. That's why stuff like Hammer and Coldlight are important -- you need to thin the deck enough that you can draw your important cards, like your Divine Favor and your finisher(s).

[Awaclus]

I also don't have a second Divine Favor.

Hammer is so versatile I'm rarely displeased when I topdeck one, and sometimes it's exactly what I need. I don't know though, it's certainly possible that it's less useful in the meta of the higher ranks, but here at rank 11 it has been great so far.

[ashersky]

Now that I have Capt. Greenskin, parrots, etc., I'm testing the weapons-based warrior pirate deck, which is fun and sometimes strong.  Does anyone see a deck like this, or other "themed"decks (murloc, dragon, charge, etc.) having success in ranked play?

[ycz6]

Well, a variety of Deathrattle-themed decks are pretty popular in Ranked, with a Zoo variant and midrange/control Shaman being the most popular. I hear Beast-based Hunter decks are pretty good too.

I suppose you knew about those already, though.

[Awaclus]

I've seen some Murloc aggro decks, mostly Warlock, although the fact that I've seen them doesn't necessarily mean that they are good.

[ashersky]

Yeah, I feel like "beast hunter" is a bit bigger than a theme, and I've see the murlocs on occasion.  Clearly there are flavor purposes to some of these cards, and some of them have built in synergy, but I'm not sure how great they are.

My take on the Warrior Pirate is currently:

1 Drops:
Upgrade! x2
Southsea Deckhand x2 (charge if weapon equipped)

2 Drops:
Fiery War Axe x2
Bloodsail Raider x2 (gain attack equal to weapon's attack)
Captain's Parrot x2

3 Drops:
Shield Block x2 (for draw)
Deathlord x2
King Mukla
Shade of Naxx
Southsea Captain x2 (+1/+1 to all Pirates)

4 Drops:
Death's Bite x2
Arathi Weaponsmith
Dread Corsair x2 (minus mana cost for weapon attack)
Kor'kron Elite x2

5 Drops:
Arcanite Reaper
Brawl
Captain Greenskin (+1/+1 to weapon)

6+ Drops:
Gorehowl
Alexstrasza


It's...okay...I feel like Mukla's a distraction, Shade of Naxx is lamish, and I'm not sold on my 5 drop choices.  I just find it hard to get finish opponents (and I don't own Leeroy).

[Titandrake]

For deathrattle-themed decks, there's a deck called Undertaker Priest that has been going around. See Kibler's decklists at http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearthstone/465636-impact-defeats-kibler-in-sunshine-open for a sample version.

One nice thing about it is that many of the cards are either common or come from Naxxramus, so if you've finished Naxxramus you don't actually need much dust. Unfortunately, the 6-cost and above cards start getting a little pricy, and I don't think there's great replacements for Cairne or Sylvanas.

[KingZog3]

Pirate decks are pretty gimmicky. Cap. Greenskin has terrible stats, and you can't play him usually till much too late in the game. Raider is good, but most of the other pirates  are justn ot good enough.

[Kirian]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like 6 weapons plus a Weaponsmith is going a tad overboard.

[HiveMindEmulator]

A Pirate Warrior is probably just a weaker version of face Warrior. It's not good for control because none of the Pirates really generate card advantage, and you're forcing yourself to play a lot of low mana minions. The strategy would be to use the weapons to kill off their stuff while you populate with Pirates to hit them in the face with. You have plenty of weapon charges, so in most cases you don't hold back on using them for face damage. The epic Pirate is pretty terrible (you're not likely to have multiple Pirates out when you play him, and even if you do, it's just +1 damage before they kill your Captain, but I guess you have to have it for theme. You probably don't want Gorehowl or Alex or Brawl, as those are control cards. You might want an Execute or 2 to deal with a big taunt or something (though maybe Owl is better since it also handles deathrattle things), and you probably want Heroic Strike and Mortal Strike for more damage. Argent Commander is nice if you have space. I'm also not sold on Deathlord, since you don't have that many low cost minions to protect. If you had more 1-drops, it would make sense, but it's not doing much currently.

I'd say from your current deck, remove:
Shade, Brawl, Gorehowl, Alex, 2x Deathlord and one Death's Bite
add:
2x Heroic, 1x Mortal, 2x Commander, 1x Owl, and a 2nd Reaper and start working from there.

[Grujah]

I've actually made 9 decks, one for each class (also I got first Wing Nax):
Paladin Control (Might switch to some weenie strat)
Hunter Midrange
Backlight Rogue
Egg/Void Zoo
Burn Mage
Shaman Control
Face Warrior
Control Priest
Whatever-I-have-brew Token/Midrange Druid

So I picked one at random, and play that one until I lose, and than I switch to the class that I lost to. Just for funsies and seeing which gets most play that way. Also if I lose to mirror I re-random. 

[theory]

Here's the Warrior deck I'm running now.  I haven't found a similar analog online though I'm sure someone has come up with the same basic concept previously.



Cards that I've found vital to this deck:

* Dread Corsair
* The Black Knight

Cards I'm considering replacing:

* Commanding Shout
* Arathi Weaponsmith

I think Grommash would be a solid addition but I don't own him.

[ashersky]

My first warrior deck was based around the damage your own minions for enrage and other benefits concept.  Feels strong.

[KingZog3]

Commanding shout is just not that playable. You leave your minims wry vulnerable, and you already need a bunch front to be worth it, AND they need to be attacking things that would otherwise kill them. I suspect you mostly want to show off the golden card

[Titandrake]

I personally like Weaponsmith, but it's not the most incredible card.

I'd say...

- Cut out Commanding Shout, it's nice when it works and not that useful when it doesn't.
- Cut Unstable Ghouls, since I think it's more of a delaying card. My feeling is that they can be good, but Enrage Warrior is a more aggressive deck and Unstable Ghouls tend to be used to buy early time.
- Add second Whirlwind - 2x Whirlwind + Death's Bite seems like enough enablers.
- If you wanted a more combo-y deck, add second Warsong and Inner Rages - you can get the charge before using Inner Rage to deal lots of damage from the hand. Warsong is really nice since it gives charge to practically everything in your deck - the only downside is that you almost always have to hold it in hand because it's a top priority removal target, so it's not really a turn 3 play and it drives your curve up a bit. I still think it's worth it though.

[KingZog3]

Weaponsmith is really a value card. It's a 3/3 drop for 4 mana that deals 4dmg over 2 turns. It's a lot in one card, but it's not fast. I think it's much better in arena.

[theory]

ADWCTA also suggested cutting Unstable Ghoul, but maybe I am just too enamored with the Unstable Ghoul -> Raging Worgen play.  It serves a double role of protector + trigger for my important minions, so I am loath to remove it.

I don't particularly like Arathi Weaponsmith because I rarely have that much trouble removing small minions.  I often just wish I had a Death's Bite / Arcanite Reaper instead.  Of course, those don't give me 3/3 bodies or aren't playable on 4 mana, but it does feel like an Arena hero instead of what this deck needs.

Inner Rage / more Warsong is a good idea.  My deck right now doesn't have a ton of "combo-from-hand" potential (it's mostly about keeping a Raging Worgen / Frothing Berserker alive for a turn) but perhaps another Warsong will open up more opportunities.

Also, guys, I'm serious about the Dread Corsair thing.  It really is the most crucial non-win condition card in my deck (maybe second after TBK) -- squeezing out a free 3/3 taunt is pretty gamechanging.

[Grujah]

No 2/3 Pirates that get bigger with weapons?

[Jorbles]

I'd definitely cut the Weaponsmith in this deck. There's problems with the card in a deck that has 5 better weapons in it. I run a similar Warrior deck and cut the Weaponsmith from it because there were numerous times that I would be unable to play the Weaponsmith because I either already had a better weapon equipped or wanted to equip a better weapon that turn and didn't want to waste the 2/2.

I would also cut the Ghouls, they synergize with your minions to enrage them, but they're not aggressive enough.

Cards I would consider adding:
Kor'Kron Elite: It's just a really good card even if it doesn't synergize.
Bloodsail Raider: Weapons make this card worth playing.
Grommosh: It sucks you don't have it, but it really would work very well here as a finisher.
Mortal Strike: One of the few Warrior cards with the ability to ignore Taunts.
Another Whirlwind: A good cheap card in this style of deck.
Earthenring Farseer: Yeah, there will be situations where you don't want to turn off a creatures enrage, but considering the amounts of ways to enrage cards you should get value out of the healing whether by keeping a creature alive to do more damage (Frothing, Gurubashi), healing a creature that's about to be reenraged anyways (through Whirlwind, Frost's Bite, etc) or just healing yourself (you do tend to take damage with all the weapons smashing into creatures). Plus it synergizes with Warsong.
Slam: If you have trouble with card draw this is a good value card for cycling.

[Jorbles]

Also another Warsong would be good too.

[ashersky]

I'm running a fun Secret Mage deck now -- I think Jorbles has one?  Anyway, I'm wondering on some card choices...

1 Mana:

Mirror Image x2
Mana Wyrm x2
Secretkeeper x2

2 Mana:

Frostbolt x2
Mad Scientist x2

3 Mana:

Arcane Intellect x2
Duplicate x2
Ice Barrier
Mirror Entity x2
Spellbender
Kirin Tor Mage x2

4 Mana:

Polymorph x2
Ethereal Arcanist x2

5 Mana:

Feugen
Stalagg

6+ Mana:

Blizzard
Flamestrike x2
Alexstrasza



I'm wondering if I need a second Blizzard (in place of a Flamestrike?  Instead of something else?) and if there are better options for 5 Mana instead of Feugen/Stalagg (I have a Faceless...Sea Giant?).

I'd like one Ice Block, but don't have it.  I have no Vaporize, either.  I have one Counterspell, but don't find it useful.

It's basically a control style deck, just biding my time while I whittle away at minions and keep getting free stuff from secret shenanigans.  But if I don't get a super big Ethereal Arcanist or Mana Wyrm, I'm a bit weak on the killing (no Pyro, no Fireballs, nothing).

Like, if I had a Leeroy or a Cairne or a Sylvanus, sure.  Or a Rag.  But I don't...I have 1 Sea Giant, 1 Molten Giant, all the Naxx legendaries, 2x Argent Commander, the aforementioned Faceless, 2x Abomination...

Any suggestions?  I have enough dust to craft an epic or 6 or so rares at this point.

[Jorbles]

I've been waiting for someone to talk about this with! This is what I run:
1s:
2 x Arcane Missiles
2 x Mana Wyrms

2s:
2 x Frostbolt
2 x Mad Scientist
2 x Ooze (I would swap these for Amanis if the meta didn't seem to be loaded with Warriors and Hunters with Eaglesongs right now)

3s:
1 x Arcane Intellect
1 x Acolyte (I've been thinking of replacing this with a second Arcane Intellect, but I like the versatility)
2 x Kirin Tor
1 x Counterspell
1 x Vapourize (I've had good results from this as a delayed removal spell, but it relies on you playing from ahead and leaving something behind that you think they'll attack face with. A lot of mind games involved. I'll probably replace this with Counterspell when I have dust to craft a second one.)
1 x Mirror Entity (edit: I only have 1.)
2 x Duplicate

4s:
2 x Water Elemental
1 x Ethereal Arcanist
2 x Fireball
2 x Polymorph

5+s:
2 x Azure Drakes
1 x Loatheb (edit: forgot I'd traded Loatheb in.)
1 x Flamestrike

It's fun I don't know how legit it will be at higher ranks, but it's climbing steadily since the last ladder reset.

I used to run Spellbender in this deck, but it really just seems like a terrible secret since it only activates when someone casts a spell targeting a creature. You'd be better off with a Counterspell. Counterspell can counter any spell, not just ones that target individual minions. Spellbender actually plays terribly if you have a Duplicate out (you don't want two Spellbenders you want two Kirin Tors or two Water Elementals or two Azure Drakes).

I used to run Cairne in this deck, but found he was usually too slow. This deck builds all it's momentum in the midgame with 3 and 4 drops. I was usually wanting to play multiple midrange threats instead of a big Cairne who is really just a midrange threat and another delayed midrange threat. I also tried running Veonidas as a finisher, but found he was too slow as well.

I don't own any Secret Keepers, but I don't think I'd run them if I did. If you play a Secretkeeper turn 1 you're not going to see a secret to buff it until turn 3 unless you coin or mad scientist one out. It doesn't seem strong enough to me, but let me know how they go.

I used to run two Arcanists, but found if I drew both of them one of them would have trouble matching up with secrets at some point.

I try to play the deck by never casting a secret for full price. Always try to bring them out with Mad Scientists or KT Mages. I use momentum gained from free secrets to take control of the mid game, gain a card advantage and try to win around the time I've drawn about 20 cards from the deck. Duplicate is a really key card for building hand advantage. I want to duplicate cards that I can cast both of immediately after the thing is killed. Any of the 3, 4 or 5 drops are good for this, Mad Scientist is okay if it's still early in the game. Ooze is okay to Duplicate if it's against a Warrior. Otherwise I try to trade off weak minions on my turn to force the Duplicate of a 3+ drop on theirs. This deck can win in the late game, but legendary heavy decks often outlast it if the game goes that long.

[markusin]

Yeah I agree that Counterspell is just better than Spellbender. There are a bunch of cards that are draw+other effect, like Slam, Hammer of Wrath, and Wrath. Spellbender still lets them draw.

[ashersky]

I've been waiting for someone to talk about this with!

I used to run Spellbender in this deck, but it really just seems like a terrible secret since it only activates when someone casts a spell targeting a creature. You'd be better off with a Counterspell. Counterspell can counter any spell, not just ones that target individual minions. Spellbender actually plays terribly if you have a Duplicate out (you don't want two Spellbenders you want two Kirin Tors or two Water Elementals or two Azure Drakes).

I used to run Cairne in this deck, but found he was usually too slow. This deck builds all it's momentum in the midgame with 3 and 4 drops. I was usually wanting to play multiple midrange threats instead of a big Cairne who is really just a midrange threat and another delayed midrange threat. I also tried running Veonidas as a finisher, but found he was too slow as well.

I don't own any Secret Keepers, but I don't think I'd run them if I did. If you play a Secretkeeper turn 1 you're not going to see a secret to buff it until turn 3 unless you coin or mad scientist one out. It doesn't seem strong enough to me, but let me know how they go.

I used to run two Arcanists, but found if I drew both of them one of them would have trouble matching up with secrets at some point.

I try to play the deck by never casting a secret for full price. Always try to bring them out with Mad Scientists or KT Mages. I use momentum gained from free secrets to take control of the mid game, gain a card advantage and try to win around the time I've drawn about 20 cards from the deck. Duplicate is a really key card for building hand advantage. I want to duplicate cards that I can cast both of immediately after the thing is killed. Any of the 3, 4 or 5 drops are good for this, Mad Scientist is okay if it's still early in the game. Ooze is okay to Duplicate if it's against a Warrior. Otherwise I try to trade off weak minions on my turn to force the Duplicate of a 3+ drop on theirs. This deck can win in the late game, but legendary heavy decks often outlast it if the game goes that long.

I've found that the Secret Keepers have been a net positive since I've started playing this deck -- I usually don't drop them T1 (that's the normal Mirror Image/Mana Wrym/Coin combos), but will if I need to have presence on T1/T2.  Generally they're a 2/3, which trades well enough, and often they'll draw the Wrath/Frostbolt/etc. out early, which I think is a good use of a 1 Drop.

I'm 50/50 on Spellbender, but when it works, it is spectacular.  I mean, it's nice when it steals a buff like MotW or something, but it seems like eating the assassinate is it's main role.  I get that Counterspell does the same thing, but I don't think you're meant to think of them as the same.  Spellbender is a minion protector, like a spell taunt.  It's the spell version of the Paladin one, but better.

I love Arcanists, and I think I'd give 2 another shot.  If I had Ice Block, it'd be even better, since that secret sticks until the very end.  They are often my big mid-range threats even though they aren't that big.

I play the deck basically with the intent of irritating the opponent into submission (not really).  Unlike common sense would dictate, I actually like Duplicating my Mirror Images -- general, barring Consecrate/Holy Nova/etc., dropping free taunts all day really slows down the opponent.  I haven't thought about using a Knife Juggler in this, but maybe with all the extra small minions from Duplicate, it's worth it?  I'm generally trying to keep board control until I can get the big guns out, and Alex is always a useful game changer late.

My big issue is I don't really have big guns that are great -- I rarely get Thaddius to work out, and I just don't have much else.  I could sub in a Faceless and an Azure Drake, maybe.

Jorbles -- how are you killing folks?  Elementals?  Spells?  Drakes are 4/4 and Loatheb is one 5/5.

[ycz6]

The win condition in my Secret Mage deck is mainly getting huge Arcanists, with Duplicate giving me a few extra chances. I also have a Pyroblast in there. The only problem is that I don't own any Ice Blocks, though, which makes the deck much worse.

[ashersky]

The win condition in my Secret Mage deck is mainly getting huge Arcanists, with Duplicate giving me a few extra chances. I also have a Pyroblast in there. The only problem is that I don't own any Ice Blocks, though, which makes the deck much worse.

I'm really tempted to spend the 400 dust to craft an Ice Block for that reason.  I'd only want the one anyway.

Would giants make any sense?  I often get up to 5 minions on the board just from the multiple Mirror Images, Secret Keepers, etc.

[Jorbles]

Jorbles -- how are you killing folks?  Elementals?  Spells?  Drakes are 4/4 and Loatheb is one 5/5.

I would say that occasionally I'll kill them in a lucky initial rush (25% of the time) by bursting them down at the end with a big arcanist and a spell, but most often I win by getting 3-4 mid size minions out and hammering them down once they're top decking. This usually involves some combo of Water Elementals, KT Mages and Drakes.

[Jorbles]

Would giants make any sense?  I often get up to 5 minions on the board just from the multiple Mirror Images, Secret Keepers, etc.

I briefly ran a Mountain Giant in the deck because I often had a card advantage in my deck (I bumped it out because it was usually not great to duplicate, the first was often cheap, but the second and third were often not). A Sea Giant might work in yours, or Frostwolf Warlords if you've got lots of little critters?

[ashersky]

Would giants make any sense?  I often get up to 5 minions on the board just from the multiple Mirror Images, Secret Keepers, etc.

I briefly ran a Mountain Giant in the deck because I often had a card advantage in my deck (I bumped it out because it was usually not great to duplicate, the first was often cheap, but the second and third were often not). A Sea Giant might work in yours, or Frostwolf Warlords if you've got lots of little critters?

Generally, a great board for me has 3-4 Mirror Images, a Mana Wyrm, 1/2 Secret Keepers, and a growing Arcanist.  I could try the giant and azure drake instead of feugen/stalagg.

[Jorbles]

If I had an Ice Block (I don't) I might consider a second Arcanist, but right now I just can't see what it's good enough to replace. Drakes are too important for card draw and spell power, Water Elementals are too good against Warriors and Hunters, which is like 25-35% of what I'm facing right now, Loatheb's too good against everyone, and everything else that costs 4+ is minion removal which the deck needs. If Warriors and Hunters became less dominant I might put a second one back in instead of a Water Elemental, but right now I'd rather have the ability to freeze my opponent than a big threat. (3+ medium sized threats is harder for people to deal with I find, especially when they're out before flamestrike is castable.)

If you are finding that Feugen and Stalagg aren't doing it for you Azure might be good. It's a really good card in mage, but then I say that as someone who runs Arcane Missiles and Fireballs. Loatheb is an amazing 5 drop, and opponents really hate it when you duplicate him (3 turns of no spells). Loatheb would probably be my top recommendation for a 5 drop in a secret deck. If you end up with 3-4 cheap minions on your board often, a Sea Giant or a Frostwolf Warlord would both be great. (Frostwolf's are maybe not as big as Giants, but they are more reliable to get out earlier so it's a trade off.)

[ashersky]

If I had an Ice Block (I don't) I might consider a second Arcanist, but right now I just can't see what it's good enough to replace. Drakes are too important for card draw and spell power, Water Elementals are too good against Warriors and Hunters, which is like 25-35% of what I'm facing right now, Loatheb's too good against everyone, and everything else that costs 4+ is minion removal which the deck needs. If Warriors and Hunters became less dominant I might put a second one back in instead of a Water Elemental, but right now I'd rather have the ability to freeze my opponent than a big threat. (3+ medium sized threats is harder for people to deal with I find, especially when they're out before flamestrike is castable.)

If you are finding that Feugen and Stalagg aren't doing it for you Azure might be good. It's a really good card in mage, but then I say that as someone who runs Arcane Missiles and Fireballs. Loatheb is an amazing 5 drop, and opponents really hate it when you duplicate him (3 turns of no spells). Loatheb would probably be my top recommendation for a 5 drop in a secret deck. If you end up with 3-4 cheap minions on your board often, a Sea Giant or a Frostwolf Warlord would both be great. (Frostwolf's are maybe not as big as Giants, but they are more reliable to get out earlier so it's a trade off.)

Yeah, no Fireballs in my deck really changes the playstyle.  I have little use for spell power, really.

I can easily swap in an Azure Drake and Loatheb for the twins.

Any thoughts on Blizzard vs. Flamestrike?  I have three slots for them, and right now I have 1 Blizzard and 2 FS.

[Jorbles]

Any thoughts on Blizzard vs. Flamestrike?  I have three slots for them, and right now I have 1 Blizzard and 2 FS.

Sorry I don't have much experience with Blizzard, I've never owned it. It seems generally useful for clearing Zoo/Paladin boards and against aggro decks. It's more versatile than flamestrike as it is also capable of allowing you to ignore minions for a turn while you hit the face. I'd probably have to see how it plays honestly. It seems to lack oomph for it's cost, but it might not matter if you can burst someone down while the blizzard freezes everything. I like that it costs 6 so you can play it earlier against aggro decks. Flamestrike is too slow against them.

[theory]

One Blizzard + two Flamestrike seems overkill...I don't know how your deck plays but I can't imagine that any Mage deck wouldn't want to run Fireball.  It's just such a powerful spell.

[blueblimp]

WRT secrets Mages, I quite like Ostkaka's mage list presented by Xixo in his Liquidhearth Open victory article. It did pretty well for me in the dying days of last season, going 25-11 at ranks 5-2, and certainly would have put me in legend with a few more hours of play. It doesn't commit overly much to secrets, just putting in enough to reliably get value from Mad Scientist's deathrattle (5), then throwing in Kirin Tor Mages so that you can play them from your hand for cheap, which makes sense to me since IMO the biggest weakness of Mad Scientist is that it forces you to put secrets in your deck that you're pretty unhappy to draw into your hand.

[Jorbles]

WRT secrets Mages, I quite like Ostkaka's mage list presented by Xixo in his Liquidhearth Open victory article. It did pretty well for me in the dying days of last season, going 25-11 at ranks 5-2, and certainly would have put me in legend with a few more hours of play. It doesn't commit overly much to secrets, just putting in enough to reliably get value from Mad Scientist's deathrattle (5), then throwing in Kirin Tor Mages so that you can play them from your hand for cheap, which makes sense to me since IMO the biggest weakness of Mad Scientist is that it forces you to put secrets in your deck that you're pretty unhappy to draw into your hand.

Thanks for this!

The comments are worth reading, where they discuss secrets mage. I think what Ostkaka says regarding how many secrets should be in the deck is worth reading. 5 is a nice sweet spot for getting value out of them. I think you could maybe make 6 work, but any more than that would be overkill and less than 4 would make it difficult to get value out of KT Mage.

He also talks about Arcanist. He used to run 1 in it, but cut it to add a Gnomish Inventor because it didn't fit the curve of the deck with the amount of card draw he needed. I don't love Arcane Intellect, but it fits the curve of how I like to play the deck. (I always always mulligan it and only plan on playing it around turn 7+.) Plus I run Azures and an Acolyte for extra draw, which he doesn't have space for because he wants to have additional death rattles.

(Disclaimer: His deck is probably better than mine, and he's definitely a better player than me, but Secrets Mage is one of the few styles of deck I play a lot so I have opinions on it.)

[ashersky]

One Blizzard + two Flamestrike seems overkill...I don't know how your deck plays but I can't imagine that any Mage deck wouldn't want to run Fireball.  It's just such a powerful spell.

I'm definitely not using the three for full board clears, but since more than three quarters of my games last well past ten turns, they become versatile removal spells.

You are right that I miss the Fireballs, though.

[ashersky]

One Blizzard + two Flamestrike seems overkill...I don't know how your deck plays but I can't imagine that any Mage deck wouldn't want to run Fireball.  It's just such a powerful spell.

I'm definitely not using the three for full board clears, but since more than three quarters of my games last well past ten turns, they become versatile removal spells.

You are right that I miss the Fireballs, though.

Okay, I crafted the epic Ice Block.  We'll see how that goes.  I traded it out for the single Ice Barrier I was running.

[Jorbles]

That will probably improve things. Ice Barrier is a pretty meh spell. It's biggest effect on the game is that people have to play like it might be a better secret, only to be relieved to trigger Ice Barrier after possibly (but not necessarily) some sub-optimal play. It has no effect on the board and is basically just a delayed heal. Useful in Freeze mage where your win condition is just to outlast someone until you have the cards and mana to burst them down, but I don't think it's very useful in more typical mage decks.

[Kirian]

So I've decided to try more constructed.  I'm running with the following:  http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=71620/ramp-watcher

2x Innervate

2x Wrath
1x Mark of the Wild
1x Wild Growth
2x Ancient Watcher
2x Sunfury Protector

1x Harvest Golem
2x Savage Roar

2x Keeper of the Grove
2x Defender of Argus
1x Spellbreaker
1x Chillwind Yeti

2x Druid of the Claw
1x Stampeding Kodo
1x Harrison Jones
1x Loatheb

1x Force of Nature
1x Sunwalker

2x Ancient of Lore

Any thoughts/suggestions for substitutions?  My collection includes a second Sunwalker, an Ancient of War, a pair of Faceless Manipulators, and a pair of BGHs.  Sludge Belcher instead of Yeti or maybe one Defender?  An extra silence?

Obviously the deck is short on 2-drops.  Put in a couple good 3/2s instead of Wild Growth and perhaps Kodo?

[ashersky]

I would definitely drop the Wild Growth -- it never seems to be worth it.

You could go Faerie Dragon or Ooze.

[Titandrake]

It's okay to have a deck with a weak turn 2, but you need the late game to back it up. Not sure if you want the 2nd Savage Roar, seems like you only use it for the FoN + Savage Roar combo most of the time.

If you're seeing lots of Hunters, Harrison is okay, but otherwise I'd replace it for something else.

Definitely try to fit in a 1x BGH somewhere, your deck feels more controllish/late game and you don't have good answers for big threats. Drop Harvest/Kodo for it? Leaning more towards Kodo, your 3 mana spot is already a little lacking and BGH is not a card you play turn 3.

[Jorbles]

Definitely try to fit in a 1x BGH somewhere, your deck feels more controllish/late game and you don't have good answers for big threats. Drop Harvest/Kodo for it? Leaning more towards Kodo, your 3 mana spot is already a little lacking and BGH is not a card you play turn 3.

I was actually thinking the same thing. Druid suffers from a lack of creature removal and BGH helps out a lot in that area. (Plus it can combo with Mark of Nature if you need to remove something with 5/6 health.)

[HiveMindEmulator]

You're not actually short on 2-drops. You have Innervate to play bigger stuff on turn 2, Wrath to remove their stuff, and Watchers and Sunfuries. And with all the taunt in the deck, you can give up a bit of tempo on turn 2 and still come out fine.
I'm not sold on Wild Growth in this deck since you don't really have anything to ramp into. The high end seems kind of lacking.
Harrison Jones is a meta card. If you're not seeing so many weapons, you can probably put something better here.
I also don't think Watcher decks need Kodo, since you deal with the aggro by taunting.

[KingZog3]

Kelthuzad is just so much fun. It seems people still haven't figured out how to play against him, and sometimes it's just game over if your opponent has minions he can kill. Plus double Kethuzad is just so awesome, I can't begin to express how enjoyable it is to see minions smash yours, and then yours rise back form the dead in doubles.

[Kirian]

You're not actually short on 2-drops. You have Innervate to play bigger stuff on turn 2, Wrath to remove their stuff, and Watchers and Sunfuries. And with all the taunt in the deck, you can give up a bit of tempo on turn 2 and still come out fine.
I'm not sold on Wild Growth in this deck since you don't really have anything to ramp into. The high end seems kind of lacking.
Harrison Jones is a meta card. If you're not seeing so many weapons, you can probably put something better here.
I also don't think Watcher decks need Kodo, since you deal with the aggro by taunting.

So I switched out Kodo for Faceless and Wild Growth for a BGH.  So far I'm... 4-8 with this deck, down near Rank 18.  Which doesn't bode too well.  Harrison right now is a liability though, I'm only rarely facing weapon classes.  A second Faceless, Azure Drake, maybe something else at 3?  Even a Loot Hoarder for the extra card...

I find my early game truly lacking; if I don't draw Watcher + something to activate it, or I draw Sunfury/Defender without any minions to turn... I end up dying to early aggro.

I wonder if it would be better to try to rank up with an aggro deck (or Zoolock because hey, it works and the game's over in 5-8 minutes) and then try this deck out at higher ranks against the meta, as opposed to spending 15 minutes per fight (where I am with this deck) and losing to crazy weird basic cards because I'm relying too much on good draws.

Or maybe I should just go back to Arena and working on getting better than 5 average over there.

[Titandrake]

If you're feeling like the early game is bad, and Harrison isn't great, then drop Harrison for a 3 drop. Second Harvest or Earthen Ring Farseer, maybe? Healing Touch isn't bad either, but I think I prefer Earthen Ring Farseer to Healing Touch.

Sen'jin is good if you want more early taunt. Wild Pyromancer is more potential board clear, Pyro + Wrath = Swipe and Pyro + Swipe will kill most boards.

Just noticed you don't list Swipe in the list, I'm assuming that's a typo because it's in the linked deck and it adds up to 28 cards. - Sunwalker, + Starfall? Sunwalker comes out a bit too late to save you against aggro IMO, it feels better against midrange decks. Whereas Starfall can wreck aggro and is just another board clear to have.

[ashersky]

You could run Power of the Wild x2.  A 3/2 or minion buff for a 2 drop that is almost always good.

[Jorbles]

I wonder if it would be better to try to rank up with an aggro deck (or Zoolock because hey, it works and the game's over in 5-8 minutes) and then try this deck out at higher ranks against the meta, as opposed to spending 15 minutes per fight (where I am with this deck) and losing to crazy weird basic cards because I'm relying too much on good draws.

If you're having trouble with relying on good draws at rank 18 it probably won't do any better at higher ranks. Many of the decks you play there are decks that have churned their way through the lower ranks already with only minor tweaks. I'd suggest keep tweaking the deck you want until you find the right makeup to win consistently. Maybe try Senjins? Or Sludge Belchers? They're really good at slowing aggro decks down. Eggs are a possibility too as they combo nicely with most of the cards that you use to activate Ancient Watchers giving you more combo possibilities.

[Jorbles]

Just had some great value Counterspells against a Freeze mage deck. Counterspell #1 eats a Pyroblast, Counterspell #2 eats a Blizzard.

[HiveMindEmulator]

You're not actually short on 2-drops. You have Innervate to play bigger stuff on turn 2, Wrath to remove their stuff, and Watchers and Sunfuries. And with all the taunt in the deck, you can give up a bit of tempo on turn 2 and still come out fine.
I'm not sold on Wild Growth in this deck since you don't really have anything to ramp into. The high end seems kind of lacking.
Harrison Jones is a meta card. If you're not seeing so many weapons, you can probably put something better here.
I also don't think Watcher decks need Kodo, since you deal with the aggro by taunting.

So I switched out Kodo for Faceless and Wild Growth for a BGH.  So far I'm... 4-8 with this deck, down near Rank 18.  Which doesn't bode too well.  Harrison right now is a liability though, I'm only rarely facing weapon classes.  A second Faceless, Azure Drake, maybe something else at 3?  Even a Loot Hoarder for the extra card...

I find my early game truly lacking; if I don't draw Watcher + something to activate it, or I draw Sunfury/Defender without any minions to turn... I end up dying to early aggro.

I wonder if it would be better to try to rank up with an aggro deck (or Zoolock because hey, it works and the game's over in 5-8 minutes) and then try this deck out at higher ranks against the meta, as opposed to spending 15 minutes per fight (where I am with this deck) and losing to crazy weird basic cards because I'm relying too much on good draws.

Or maybe I should just go back to Arena and working on getting better than 5 average over there.

If you want more targets for the taunt-givers, Eggs could be nice. But yeah, your early game is lacking mostly in the turn 3-4 department. Defender and Spellbreaker need a Watcher to be useful, so you really only have 1 3-drop and 3 4-drops that you can play consistently. I would strive to add in another Yeti/Sen'jin and another 3-drop (Harvest/Farseer) somehow.

[Jorbles]

I have lived the dream Warlock opening and that opening is this:
1: Coin-> Egg
2: Egg
3: Void Terror->"Your Soul Shall Suffer"

(It's worth the 8-10 damage you take setting it up, I did this against an aggro deck and was a little nervous, but it's big enough that it turns everything around.)

[ashersky]

Can someone tell me how to beat Ysera?

Seems like without a 12 damage Snipe, it's autowin, since they get the dream card the turn they summon.

I survived awhile, but man, not much I can do.  I got mirror entity emerald drake, then he killed it so it duplicated.  Then I play them and he just does the kill everything but Ysera spell.  Then I cast a strong minion and he saps.  Ysera counters everything.  And with 4 attack, he's immune to shadow words.  Hex and Poly are the only two single card removals, I think.  Or silence, I guess.

But what's the secret?  Is there a card you need to run solely for Ysera possibilities?

[Drab Emordnilap]

Generally you beat Ysera by not giving them a turn they can afford to spend 9 mana to play her. She affects the board not at all the turn you play her, so they basically skip a turn. If your board is threatening enough, then she never gets played because then you'll just win. It's not like they can play Flamestrike and Ysera in the same turn.

[Titandrake]

Generally you beat Ysera by not giving them a turn they can afford to spend 9 mana to play her. She affects the board not at all the turn you play her, so they basically skip a turn. If your board is threatening enough, then she never gets played because then you'll just win. It's not like they can play Flamestrike and Ysera in the same turn.

Put another way, if your opponent is in a position where they can play Ysera without losing in the next 1 or 2 turns, the game was over anyways. Ysera's a card you only put in control decks, if they managed to not die until then you're either running a control deck yourself or you failed to get through their defense.

[Kirian]

So I just went 5-0 in unrated using the following plain ridiculous Shaman deck:  http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=72631/ridiculous-deathrattles

Is unrated easier than ladder in general?  Did I get a lucky streak?  Did I find some untapped gem of potential?  Thoughts?

[Grujah]

So I just went 5-0 in unrated using the following plain ridiculous Shaman deck:  http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=72631/ridiculous-deathrattles

Is unrated easier than ladder in general?  Did I get a lucky streak?  Did I find some untapped gem of potential?  Thoughts?

Unrated is quite easier in my experience.

[Jorbles]

So I just went 5-0 in unrated using the following plain ridiculous Shaman deck:  http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=72631/ridiculous-deathrattles

Is unrated easier than ladder in general?  Did I get a lucky streak?  Did I find some untapped gem of potential?  Thoughts?

Unrated is quite easier in my experience.

Yeah, a lot of people try out weird/new deck ideas in unrated, and people who are nervous about losing rank play weak decks there to grind quests. So the quality of the decks are not as solid, but there are good decks there, just not as regularly as in ranked.

[blueblimp]

I don't know if there's actual official info confirming it, but: I believe that unranked uses its own MMR, so the quality of opponents you get matched against depends on how well you've performed in unranked in the past.

The best way to judge the quality of a deck (short of something elaborate like, say, having dedicated practice partners), IMO, is to play it in ranked play until you stabilize at roughly 50% winrate. If all you want to know is whether it's better than the previous deck you were playing in ranked, and you had stabilized with that deck, then you can just play a few games and see whether your winrate is well over 50% (good sign), well under 50% (bad sign), or somewhere near 50% (inconclusive). Of course this doesn't account for strength in different matchups, but you need literally hundreds of games to get statistically useful results in even the common matchups.

[Kirian]

Of course this doesn't account for strength in different matchups, but you need literally hundreds of games to get statistically useful results in even the common matchups.

I think this is really the main trouble with testing a deck by playing it on the ladder--you do need literally hundreds of games to say "yeah, this is better than 50/50."

[Titandrake]

Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

[blueblimp]

Of course this doesn't account for strength in different matchups, but you need literally hundreds of games to get statistically useful results in even the common matchups.

I think this is really the main trouble with testing a deck by playing it on the ladder--you do need literally hundreds of games to say "yeah, this is better than 50/50."

Decks that are both fundamentally good and well positioned in the ladder meta can get 70%+ winrates, so it doesn't take all that many games to observe that. It's just when you want to know specific matchup strengths and weaknesses that it becomes hard to judge, especially for archetypes that you don't face very often on ladder.

[Kirian]

Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

That would certainly make things more ridiculous.  Oh, you let Cairne stay on the board?  Ancestral Spirit, Reincarnation... yeah.

[KingZog3]

Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

That would certainly make things more ridiculous.  Oh, you let Cairne stay on the board?  Ancestral Spirit, Reincarnation... yeah.

I'm using a shaman death deck, but I don t run ancestral spirit. It's too slow. Reincarnate is just a tool to activate egg, sylvannas and kelthuzad.

[Kirian]

Meanwhile, in Constructed, I just got to pull off the Auchenai Soulpriest/Baron Rivendare/2xZombie Chow/CoH combo...

[KingZog3]

Meanwhile, in Constructed, I just got to pull off the Auchenai Soulpriest/Baron Rivendare/2xZombie Chow/CoH combo...

Your life is complete. You can stop playing hearthstone now.

[Jorbles]

Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

That would certainly make things more ridiculous.  Oh, you let Cairne stay on the board?  Ancestral Spirit, Reincarnation... yeah.

I'm using a shaman death deck, but I don t run ancestral spirit. It's too slow. Reincarnate is just a tool to activate egg, sylvannas and kelthuzad.

I just finished Naxx so I could attempt something similar. I wanted Kel before I built it. I don't have Sylvanas, but I do have Cairne. Do you mind if I ask what you run? I can't decide whether Chargers and Shielders are good enough to replace some Deathrattlers in this type of deck.

[Jorbles]

Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:

2 x Earthshock
1 x Lightning Bolt
2 x Rockbiter
2 x Undertaker
1 x Ancestral Spirit
2 x Reincarnate
2 x Flametongue Totem
2 x Haunted Creeper
2 x Nerubian Egg
2 x Lightning Storm
2 x Harvest Golem
1 x Mana Tide Totem
1 x Baron Rivendare
1 x Bloodlust
2 x Sludge Belcher
1 x Argent Commander
1 x Cairne Bloodhoof
2 x Fire Elemental
1 x Kel'Thuzad

So far it's having good results, better than my Secrets deck anyways (for whatever that's worth). It's got a couple different viable win conditions.
1) Using deathrattlers, eggs and totems establish early board control. Get 4-6 small minions out before opponents have had a chance to draw into AoE and wipe them out with a well timed BLARGLEGARGLE (Bloodlust). (I wasn't sure this was viable when I started the deck, but I've pulled it off 3 times now and almost had lethal in a couple other games unbeknownst to my opponents.)
2) Have Mid-range threats (Rivendare/Sludge Belchers/Cairne/Fire Elementals) eat minion removal spells and then drop Kel'Thuzad to have a turn of trading while I've got a death rattler or two out building on that momentum to a win (this has been less relevant, but has been effective once or twice.)

This deck has lost when opponents have had heavy amounts of Silence in their deck or drawn board clear when I'm out of 1-3 drop minions in hand. For instance, once I got out late-gamed by a Priest who got both his Auchenai, CoH combos off, had a Rag I had to throw my Bloodlust at to remove, and had a Mass Dispel and a Silence to play. He also stole a copy of my K'T which I killed with the Argent+something. I got him to start fatiguing, but couldn't draw enough to clear his board.

Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

[KingZog3]

Deathrattle Shaman is actually not that crazy of a deck. It does get so much better if you have Cairne + Sylvanas though.

That would certainly make things more ridiculous.  Oh, you let Cairne stay on the board?  Ancestral Spirit, Reincarnation... yeah.

I'm using a shaman death deck, but I don t run ancestral spirit. It's too slow. Reincarnate is just a tool to activate egg, sylvannas and kelthuzad.

I just finished Naxx so I could attempt something similar. I wanted Kel before I built it. I don't have Sylvanas, but I do have Cairne. Do you mind if I ask what you run? I can't decide whether Chargers and Shielders are good enough to replace some Deathrattlers in this type of deck.

I'm not on my laptop which has Hearthstone installed, but off the top of my head:

1mana:
Earthshockx2
Rockbiter Weaponx2
Lightning Boltx2

2mana:
Nerubian Eggx2
Haunted Creeperx2 (This is questionable but hey, I don't know what is better)
Reincarnatex2
Flametonguex2

3mana:
Lightning Storm x2
Harvest Golemx2
Hex2

4mana:
Gnomish Inventor x2

5mana:
Azure Drakex2
Sludge Belcherx2

6mana:
Fire elementalx2
Sylvannas Windrunner (you can use Cairne. I don't have him)

8mana:
Kel Thuzad

Actually that's it, all 30 cards. Changes can be made if this doesnt work for you. Maybe you think haunted Creeper would be better as Undertakers, or ancestral spirit is good. They never came in handy for me, and Creeper works really well with Flametongue. Gnomish Inventor is for card draw. It's decent at 4, but this deck needs to draw to not go into top decking too fast.

[KingZog3]

Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:
...
Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

I didn't put Rivandare in my deck simply because I don't like his stats, and he's yet another card that is dependent on other minions being out. I also don't run Bloodlust for this reason, as very often it can end up not being very helpful. I also don't run mana tide though, but I feel that your deck may run into top decking issues. Perhaps not, but I've found Shaman to need Drakes or something giving +card to keep up hand size for most of the game.

[Jorbles]

Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:
...
Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

I didn't put Rivandare in my deck simply because I don't like his stats, and he's yet another card that is dependent on other minions being out. I also don't run Bloodlust for this reason, as very often it can end up not being very helpful. I also don't run mana tide though, but I feel that your deck may run into top decking issues. Perhaps not, but I've found Shaman to need Drakes or something giving +card to keep up hand size for most of the game.

I'm still not sure about him, as you say his stats are terrible. I always hold onto him in hopes of comboing him with something, which has mixed results. Some games I've had to toss him out for no purpose other than to draw out a spell or used him for a play involving 4 Spectral Spiders that immediately get destroyed with a single card and I've wondered what use he is.

But when he's good man is he good. He can make up for his lacklustre stats in weird combos involving Eggs or Ancestral Spirit or both! One game Rivendare got me a board that was Egg, Egg, Nerubian, Nerubian, Rivendare, which was so satisfying that I immediately forgave him previous games that he was not particularly useful in.

[Jorbles]

Mana Tide Totem is one of my favourite card drawers. I like drakes, but I wanted something that could be played at the same time as something else so opponents have to pick between removing the card drawer or something else. They're both good though. Reincarnate and Ancestral Spirit are actually filling the role of pseudo card draw in this deck. Reincarnate can generate a copy of a death rattlers token which on the strong ones is like getting a great deal on a card (2 mana for a 4/4 is pretty common).

Ancestral Spirit is pretty strong to play on key cards. If you can get it on any of the 5+ drops (not always possible) it's a huge advantage. If you can't you can still probably get it on a strong card that usually attracts removal like Mana Tide or Flame Tongue this often forces people to try and get rid of smaller threats they can actually deal with entirely first ignoring the big totems entirely letting you get a lot more value out of them. This is probably because they're misplaying, but it's such an unfamiliar situation that people don't always know how to handle it.

I have no regrets running a single Bloodlust in this deck. I'd actually recommend you try it. Deathrattlers + Totems can be really annoying to remove. Giving you more opportunities to burst someone down with Bloodlust than is common in more traditional shaman decks run. People aren't running Hunter much anymore so the biggest counter to having a big board of weak minions is less common.

[ashersky]

Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:
...
Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

I didn't put Rivandare in my deck simply because I don't like his stats, and he's yet another card that is dependent on other minions being out. I also don't run Bloodlust for this reason, as very often it can end up not being very helpful. I also don't run mana tide though, but I feel that your deck may run into top decking issues. Perhaps not, but I've found Shaman to need Drakes or something giving +card to keep up hand size for most of the game.

I'm still not sure about him, as you say his stats are terrible. I always hold onto him in hopes of comboing him with something, which has mixed results. Some games I've had to toss him out for no purpose other than to draw out a spell or used him for a play involving 4 Spectral Spiders that immediately get destroyed with a single card and I've wondered what use he is.

But when he's good man is he good. He can make up for his lacklustre stats in weird combos involving Eggs or Ancestral Spirit or both! One game Rivendare got me a board that was Egg, Egg, Nerubian, Nerubian, Rivendare, which was so satisfying that I immediately forgave him previous games that he was not particularly useful in.

I use Rivendare in my Naxx zoo, and I don't have that many deathrattle minions.  He's mainly a cheap combo piece for the eggs, of course, but I find he also serves as a quasi-taunt since opponents usually want to remove him right away.  So I use him as a delay tactic where my opponent has to skip a turn to remove him.  I rarely save him for combos anymore.

[Jorbles]

Okay here's my shot at a Shaman Deathrattler deck:
...
Anyhow thoughts? I'm not sure exactly what to do with Rivendare when I have him in hand, but he just seems like a good idea in this deck.

I didn't put Rivandare in my deck simply because I don't like his stats, and he's yet another card that is dependent on other minions being out. I also don't run Bloodlust for this reason, as very often it can end up not being very helpful. I also don't run mana tide though, but I feel that your deck may run into top decking issues. Perhaps not, but I've found Shaman to need Drakes or something giving +card to keep up hand size for most of the game.

I'm still not sure about him, as you say his stats are terrible. I always hold onto him in hopes of comboing him with something, which has mixed results. Some games I've had to toss him out for no purpose other than to draw out a spell or used him for a play involving 4 Spectral Spiders that immediately get destroyed with a single card and I've wondered what use he is.

But when he's good man is he good. He can make up for his lacklustre stats in weird combos involving Eggs or Ancestral Spirit or both! One game Rivendare got me a board that was Egg, Egg, Nerubian, Nerubian, Rivendare, which was so satisfying that I immediately forgave him previous games that he was not particularly useful in.

I use Rivendare in my Naxx zoo, and I don't have that many deathrattle minions.  He's mainly a cheap combo piece for the eggs, of course, but I find he also serves as a quasi-taunt since opponents usually want to remove him right away.  So I use him as a delay tactic where my opponent has to skip a turn to remove him.  I rarely save him for combos anymore.

Which is kindof the same as a Mogadishu Warden then and that's a card I think is pretty bad. I don't think he's worth it unless you're getting some value out of Deathrattles.

[ashersky]

I use Rivendare in my Naxx zoo, and I don't have that many deathrattle minions.  He's mainly a cheap combo piece for the eggs, of course, but I find he also serves as a quasi-taunt since opponents usually want to remove him right away.  So I use him as a delay tactic where my opponent has to skip a turn to remove him.  I rarely save him for combos anymore.

Which is kindof the same as a Mogadishu Warden then and that's a card I think is pretty bad. I don't think he's worth it unless you're getting some value out of Deathrattles.

It's exactly the same as a Warden.  I actually Sunfury Protector'd him when he got silenced in a recent game, so he was an actual Warden.

I mean, when I pull off the Egg/Egg/Pit Terror Combo for a 3/7 Terror and 4 4/4 nerubians, that's amazing.  But the cards don't always line up that way.

[Jorbles]

I mean, when I pull off the Egg/Egg/Pit Terror Combo for a 3/7 Terror and 4 4/4 nerubians, that's amazing.  But the cards don't always line up that way.

Yeah, but worst case scenario your Void Terror is a 3/3 for 3 mana. Still a decent card. The fact that it can eat your eggs, spiders or whatever minion you cast Power Overwhelming on is a bonus.

I'd way rather have a naked Void Terror than a Baron Rivendare with nothing to deathrattle (A 4-drop card that I should note would trade evenly or unfavourably with many 3 drops). If you're not getting something out of his deathrattle bonus consistently, you'd probably be better served by a stronger 4 drop. Playing him for nothing but his stats is an unfortunate necessity sometimes, I think he needs to be kept for some sort of deathrattle bonus combo if he's going to pull his weight in the deck.

[Awaclus]

So, I have a question about this deck again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

[KingZog3]

So, I have a question about this deck again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

I think you generally want to run 2 wilfriders, as well as the Arcane Golems. Maybe replace 1 arcane with Leeroy if you want, but this deck doesn't feel aggressive enough. Worgen infiltrator isn't super aggressive, and harvest Golem is value, not aggression. SSC is ok I guess, I'm not too sure what else to put the spot though.

[Awaclus]

So, I have a question about this deck again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

I think you generally want to run 2 wilfriders, as well as the Arcane Golems. Maybe replace 1 arcane with Leeroy if you want, but this deck doesn't feel aggressive enough. Worgen infiltrator isn't super aggressive, and harvest Golem is value, not aggression. SSC is ok I guess, I'm not too sure what else to put the spot though.

I don't run the Golem anymore. What would you play instead of Infiltrator?

[KingZog3]

So, I have a question about this deck again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

I think you generally want to run 2 wilfriders, as well as the Arcane Golems. Maybe replace 1 arcane with Leeroy if you want, but this deck doesn't feel aggressive enough. Worgen infiltrator isn't super aggressive, and harvest Golem is value, not aggression. SSC is ok I guess, I'm not too sure what else to put the spot though.

I don't run the Golem anymore. What would you play instead of Infiltrator?

Why don't you run golem? And I don't know what to run instead, I guess you want the 2 drops, but I never considered it a very amazing card.

[Jorbles]

So, I have a question about this deck again. The list is slightly different now, I have a second Divine Favor instead of the Harvest Golem and a second Owl instead of the Bluegill, but mostly similar. I've been thinking of crafting a Leeroy for the deck, but since they gave him the nerf, I guess he's still pretty good? Or not worth it? Can the $3 4/2 Charge guy that gives the opponent a mana crystal replace Leeroy?

I think you generally want to run 2 wilfriders, as well as the Arcane Golems. Maybe replace 1 arcane with Leeroy if you want, but this deck doesn't feel aggressive enough. Worgen infiltrator isn't super aggressive, and harvest Golem is value, not aggression. SSC is ok I guess, I'm not too sure what else to put the spot though.

I don't run the Golem anymore. What would you play instead of Infiltrator?

Wargen seems to be in the deck because there aren't really any other good 1-drops to fit the decks style left? You might want to focus a little bit less on making sure you have a strong start (you have lots of 1s and 2s to choose from already) and work on strong cards for your 3rd and 4th turns. Defender of Argus, Dark Iron Dwarf, or another Wolfrider all seem like they'd help in that regard. (I'd probably go with the DoA or Wolfrider since you're a Paladin deck and those cards work better with Equality).

[Jorbles]

Scarlet Crusaders and a single Sword of Justice seem like they'd work well here also.

[KingZog3]

Scarlet Crusaders and a single Sword of Justice seem like they'd work well here also.

Yeah true, lots of aggro Paladin's run Sword of Justice.

[Jorbles]

I just looked it up because I couldn't remember it's mana cost and got a good look at it's artwork. I usually don't comment on this sort of thing, but what a frigging dumb looking sword. IT'S GOT TWO BLADES MAN! IT'S SO BADASS! TWICE THE BLADE=====FIVE TIMES THE CUTTING!

Edit: http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/567-sword-of-justice

[blueblimp]

Odd thing about Wild Growth as P2: if you coin Wild Growth, it's like exchanging player seat except that: your opponent doesn't have a coin and you skipped your 1 and 2 mana turns. As P2, averaged over both turns, you're 1/2 mana behind, 1/2 card ahead, and have a coin. After coining Wild Growth, you're 1/2 mana ahead and 1/2 card behind, like as if you were P1 to begin with, except your opponent doesn't get a coin in return, and your next turn is with 3 mana, like P1's turn 3.

I suppose it's true that the coin is significant enough, and P1's first two turns useless enough (if not playing Wild Growth), that this is still an advantage for P2.

[Titandrake]

I played in a mini-Hearthstone tourney today! It was only 8 people, so we did 4 rounds of Swiss, best of 3, where I went 2-2.

One of my losses was pretty funny though. My opponent's playing Control Warrior, I'm playing some janky Undertaker Priest, and he's just played Loatheb. I drop Deathload + Unstable Ghoul + Injured Blademaster and heal Blademaster, so now I have 4 minions to his 1.

His turn: Brawl, he rolls the 1/5 and Loatheb lives...and pulls out Grommash from Deathlord, which comes into play before Unstable Ghoul trigger, so it got activated as well. Needless to say, I lost that game pretty badly.

[ashersky]

Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

[Grujah]

Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

Thats how the deck works. Also he had Gromash and probably Harrison, Enranged Gromash (it usually follows an Alex turn) is his main win condition, you always have to lookout for that thing.

[Jorbles]

Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

I hear you, that deck is super annoying to play against, you need so much removal in your deck to outlast it. Usually it's better to just try and out aggro it because it's a huge late-game deck. You need to play more aggressively and win before he can do more than play a Cairne or Sylvanas or you've already lost.

[Jorbles]

Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

Thats how the deck works. Also he had Gromash and probably Harrison, Enranged Gromash (it usually follows an Alex turn) is his main win condition, you always have to lookout for that thing.

Ysera and Loatheb are often in that deck too. It's pretty ridiculous.

[ashersky]

Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

Thats how the deck works. Also he had Gromash and probably Harrison, Enranged Gromash (it usually follows an Alex turn) is his main win condition, you always have to lookout for that thing.

Ysera and Loatheb are often in that deck too. It's pretty ridiculous.

He played Loatheb early.  I feel like a Kel'thuzad was there, too.

[KingZog3]

Just lost to a warrior in ranked...I know it's lame to complain about being Legendary'ed to death, but man...

Rag, Geddon, Sylvanas, Cairne, Alex...I only have 2 polymorphs.

In the end, I died to fatigue, and not him, though.  That's something.

Thats how the deck works. Also he had Gromash and probably Harrison, Enranged Gromash (it usually follows an Alex turn) is his main win condition, you always have to lookout for that thing.

Ysera and Loatheb are often in that deck too. It's pretty ridiculous.

He played Loatheb early.  I feel like a Kel'thuzad was there, too.

Kel'thuzad is really only good if you have enough little minions to take advantage of his ability. Shaman is really good for him, probably Paladin is not bad. But he really is a midrange deck kind of card, not for a deck that plays tons of huge minions.

[Titandrake]

How important are Thalnos and Edwin to Miracle Rogue these days? I was looking through my collections, and discovered I actually have 2 Preps, plus 2 copies of all the other important spells, and a Malygos if I wanted to run the Malygos variation. I'm giving some pretty serious thought to building the deck, but I'm not sure if I want to spend the dust on the legendaries or not.

[Jorbles]

How important are Thalnos and Edwin to Miracle Rogue these days? I was looking through my collections, and discovered I actually have 2 Preps, plus 2 copies of all the other important spells, and a Malygos if I wanted to run the Malygos variation. I'm giving some pretty serious thought to building the deck, but I'm not sure if I want to spend the dust on the legendaries or not.

I gave it a shot last week in casual with 2 preps and all the spells, but no Edwin/Thalnos/Leeroy and I can say that was definitely not good enough.

[Titandrake]

How important are Thalnos and Edwin to Miracle Rogue these days? I was looking through my collections, and discovered I actually have 2 Preps, plus 2 copies of all the other important spells, and a Malygos if I wanted to run the Malygos variation. I'm giving some pretty serious thought to building the deck, but I'm not sure if I want to spend the dust on the legendaries or not.

I gave it a shot last week in casual with 2 preps and all the spells, but no Edwin/Thalnos/Leeroy and I can say that was definitely not good enough.

I have both Malygos + Leeroy - it might be decent enough. I'm busy for the next couple of days so I can't go try it out right now.

[EgorK]

Maly rogue is quite good in current meta. Edwin is not cornerstone of this deck

[markusin]

I just opened a Leeroy the other day. Is Leeroy still good in Miracle Rogue after the erf?

[Jorbles]

I just opened a Leeroy the other day. Is Leeroy still good in Miracle Rogue after the erf?

Yeah, I think he's still pretty good in Miracle, you can't get off quite the really crazy combos you could previously (Leeroy, Shadowstep, Leeroy, Shadowstep, Leeroy, Cold Blood, Cold Blood for 26 damage for instance), but you can still Leeroy, Shadowstep, Leeroy, Cold Blood x 2, for a slightly less crazy combo of 20 damage and still very scary.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I'm not so sure how I feel about Cold Blood in Miracle. It's a very all-in kind of card. 4 damage for 1 mana is really good, but the card can end up dead in your hand a lot. Running 2x seems like you're pushing it. It used to be common to see 2, but I think 0-1 was more common last I had seen. Anyway, I don't know about giving credit to Leeroy for the Cold Blood damage. Leeroy is a 5 mana Fireball that turns Shadowsteps into 3 mana Fireballs. Leeroy+Shadowstep is like 2x Fireball, so that's still quite a fine finisher.

[Titandrake]

I've been looking at the deck from

For Cold Blood, I think the key thing is that on the turn you go off, you have an Auctioneer in play already. So, you're very likely to have Cold Blood not be a dead card, since you can just put it on Auctioneer and attack with that.

The deck in the video has some interesting choices - no SI:7, Perdition's Blade is 4 damage on the turn you play it + gives you a Deadly Poison target for cheap, Arcane Golem for Shadowstep target instead. No Malygos because it seems like it plans to win before 9 mana can even happen.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Cold blood is kind of "win more". So is Conceal. If you have an Auctioneer out, you're in great shape no matter what. If you don't have an Auctioneer out, the cards are terrible. So running 2 of each makes your deck really "coin-flippy". If you happen to draw Auctioneer, you can't lose; if you don't, you can't win. Day9's deck is really all-in on getting lucky and drawing an Auctioneer. The better Miracle decks, imo, run more minions to hold up the midgame until you draw that Auctioneer, and then single Conceal, 0-1 Cold Blood. With no Auctioneer yet, I'd much rather be able to play Farseer/SI:7/Azure/etc. than to stare at a hand full of unplayable 1 mana spells.

[Jorbles]

I've been on a hot streak with what I'm calling Yeti Watcher. It's a variant of Ancient Watcher bolstered by a whole bunch of Yeti size minions. It lacked some removal so I added a BGH.

0s:
2 x Innervate
2s:
2 x Watcher
2 x Egg
2 x Protector
1 x Mark
2 x Wrath
1 x Wild Growth
3s:
1 x SSC
1 x BGH
4s:
2 x Yeti
2 x Keeper
2 x Spellbreaker
2 x Swipe
2 x Defenders
5s:
2 x Druid
1 x Loatheb
6s:
1 x Cairne
7s:
1 x AoL
9s:
1 x Cenarius

The goal of the deck is to protect your hero with Watchers and Eggs while threats that are difficult to remove with AoE smacks your opponent or his minions around. Ideal opening combo when you are Control is Watcher or Egg+Activation (silences can buff Watcher, but not Eggs, buffers can buff eggs, taunters activate both though are not ideal for Watcher). Ideal opening when you are the aggro/beatdown is Turn 2 Innervate into Yeti (though a turn 2 watcher/protector is also really strong) It's a little tricky to get a feel for when you are the control and when you are the beatdown, as this changes depending on the deck you're up against, but it's a fun, flexible deck and very effective against a lot of decks, especially ones that are vulnerable to Silence (you have 4 silences, and don't need them for the Watchers, though they are sometimes preferable to Taunt).

Room for improvement:
I'd sub out Cenarius for Rag or Ysera if I had either of them. I'd also sub out the SSC for another BGH if I had a second one to improve this deck against late game decks and probably something for a second AoL if I had one. This deck could probably use the FoN/SR combo to good effect as well. I don't have FoN so I'm playing without it, but if you have them that might make this deck better. The Black Knight would work really well and combos with Mark.

Notable matchups:
This deck struggles against Paladin Weeny decks as Equality is really strong against it. Try to trade before the Equality combos go off.
This deck is pretty great against aggro if you get a Watcher or Egg combo, but can have a rough time if you don't have a Watcher or Egg in play by turn 2, it's worth Mulliganing pretty aggressively to get one.
This deck is really strong against Priest who can't use Shadow Words against a lot of the threats in this deck (careful not to buff cards to be above 4 against Priest).

[ashersky]

So I started running this hunter deck recently, and it's a lot of fun:

http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/468923-jbfletchers-hunter-sligh-1-legendary-deck

Only changes I've made is dropping a Belcher for Leeroy and two Explosive Traps and one Snake Trap instead of the other way around (I had to craft the one Snake Trap).

It's been working really well so far and it's a lot of fun.  The hyenas are the surprising strengths.

[Jorbles]

So I started running this hunter deck recently, and it's a lot of fun:

http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/468923-jbfletchers-hunter-sligh-1-legendary-deck

Only changes I've made is dropping a Belcher for Leeroy and two Explosive Traps and one Snake Trap instead of the other way around (I had to craft the one Snake Trap).

It's been working really well so far and it's a lot of fun.  The hyenas are the surprising strengths.

That's a fun looking deck. I might try it, I'm only missing 1 Snake Trap and 1 Eaglehorn to do this. I'll sub in an Explosive Trap and a Flare probably. Seen a lot of Secrets recently.

[markusin]

I just remembered that I can now pull off the Leeroy+UtH combo now that I have Leeroy.

[ashersky]

How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

[EgorK]

How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

[ashersky]

How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

Really?  Every game is lost when he triple Giants, argus two of them and shadowflame the third...

He can't cast Giants at 21 health, but below that, as he approaches killable levels, the Giants destroy me.

[EgorK]

How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

Really?  Every game is lost when he triple Giants, argus two of them and shadowflame the third...

He can't cast Giants at 21 health, but below that, as he approaches killable levels, the Giants destroy me.

But really, he can't do that realistically at over 10 health. And at 10 he still need dream hand to do it. And you can still win by double KC

[KingZog3]

How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

Really?  Every game is lost when he triple Giants, argus two of them and shadowflame the third...

He can't cast Giants at 21 health, but below that, as he approaches killable levels, the Giants destroy me.

But really, he can't do that realistically at over 10 health. And at 10 he still need dream hand to do it. And you can still win by double KC

Yeah I've found beating Handlock pretty easy recently. I'm playing a reincarnate Shaman and there are a lot of ways to deal with giants if you have a couple minion on the board. And Shaman, my deck in particular, generally has a lot of minions out. And with all the deathrattles even if he board clears there are generally some little guys left over.

[markusin]

How do I beat handlock?  It feels like if I can't burst from 21 life to zero in one turn, I can't win.

And I just don't have much capability for a 21 attack turn...

You do not need to burst him in one turn. Playing hunter you do not care about overdamaging handlock, just save kill comands for last push to face

Really?  Every game is lost when he triple Giants, argus two of them and shadowflame the third...

He can't cast Giants at 21 health, but below that, as he approaches killable levels, the Giants destroy me.

But really, he can't do that realistically at over 10 health. And at 10 he still need dream hand to do it. And you can still win by double KC

Yeah I've found beating Handlock pretty easy recently. I'm playing a reincarnate Shaman and there are a lot of ways to deal with giants if you have a couple minion on the board. And Shaman, my deck in particular, generally has a lot of minions out. And with all the deathrattles even if he board clears there are generally some little guys left over.

Shaman tends to have the edge against handlock, especially if they run Bloodlust. I've noticed it's really effective to deliberately keep handlocks at high health until you have near-lethal.

[Awaclus]

I'm playing Paladin aggro and I think the Handlock matchup is slightly favorable for me. Divine Favor is super useful, Equality deals with the Giants and I can also deal a lot of damage pretty fast. The problematic games are when I'm forced to play an Equality at a suboptimal time or when I don't have it.

[blueblimp]

When playing against Handlock, keep in mind that they won't always have two Molten Giants in hand, or even one, and in the cases where they do, they might not have any taunt-givers in hand. If you don't ever play around Molten Giants, you will still win some games. If you can play around Molten Giants, you either want to put them low enough that you can finish with spells to face, or hold back a bit of damage to put them at a total where you can kill in one turn using a burst combo. Priest isn't very good at either of these, which is one reason they struggle vs Handlock.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think a lot of people try too hard to play around Molten Giants. If you don't have a burst combo to kill from over half health, then keeping your opponent over half health doesn't really do any good. Waiting just gives him more time to draw the Giants.

[markusin]

I think a lot of people try too hard to play around Molten Giants. If you don't have a burst combo to kill from over half health, then keeping your opponent over half health doesn't really do any good. Waiting just gives him more time to draw the Giants.

Pretty much this if you're a Priest. I can't see Priest outliving handlock in the long term.

[nkirbit]

I just opened a Grom, which gives me enough incentive to try and finally try out control warrior.  Anyone have a list they particularly like or would recommend?  Just looking around I see quite a variety of different lists, so if anyone has any lists they like that would be as good of a place as anywhere to start.

[HiveMindEmulator]

^I'm currently playing control Warrior at rank 2, and my list is:
2x Execute
2x Shield Slam
2x Slam
2x Axe
2x Armorsmith
2x Taskmaster
2x Shield Block
2x Acolyte
2x Death's Bite
2x Korkron
1x Spellbreaker
1x Brawl
1x Faceless
2x Belcher
1x Sylvanas
1x Geddon
1x Grom
1x Rag
1x Alex

More "standard" control Warriors don't run Slam or Korkron or Geddon, and have Unstable Ghoul, BGH, Loatheb, Cairne and/or Ysera. My version is a little meta-specific. I see mostly a lot of decks based on overwhelming the board with small minions (Hunter, Shaman, Zoo), and I think Slam, Korkorn, and Geddon are all very good vs this without giving up too much vs slower decks. Unstable can potentially 2-for-1 or better when Slam won't, but if gives them some initiative to decide what hits the Ghoul. With Slam, you make sure the Knife Juggler (or whatever other priority target) is dead asap. Korkron is great vs stuff with 2 attack or less, since vs them it's nearly an Argent Commander for 2 mana less. And Geddon is a board clear that transitions into a threat, while vs control, it eats a BGH that would otherwise go to Rag or Alex. Slam is also fine vs control as you can cantrip it, and Korkron can sometimes give Priests a bit of trouble (though this deck is still a big underdog to control Priest).

EDIT: I should mention, a big selling point of this deck is that nearly 2/3 of the cards can affect the opponent's board the turn I play them, which makes it much harder for them to establish a board to overwhelm me with. This makes it not too much trouble to survive and then win when the big cards come out.

[ashersky]

So I've risen higher than ever before in ranked (9 + 5 stars, which isn't much, but much better than before for me) using the sligh hunter deck, slightly modified:

1x Hunter's Mark
2x Undertaker
2x Webspinner
2x Explosive Trap
1x Snake Trap
2x Haunted Creeper
2x Knife Juggler
2x Mad Scientist
2x Scavenging Hyena
2x Eaglehorn Bow
2x Animal Companion
2x Kill Command
2x Unleash the Hounds
2x Houndmaster
1x Sludge Belcher
1x Leeroy Jenkins
2x Savannah Highmane

I'm finding the trouble I run into is Handlock, Priests, and Warriors built to outlast opponents.  They're generally removing my big threats (pumped up hyenas) and my usual removal doesn't work on giant minions (traps, lots of trading, juggled knives, etc.).

Should I think about adding some removal?  A second Hunter's Mark?  Explosive Shot?  I mean, Hunter's Mark + Snake Trap/Unleash gets rid of one big minion.  One or two Kill Commands can get another.  Leeroy can maybe take out another...but that's it.  But if I'm adding things in, what am I removing?

I've thought about trading out a Bow for a Hunter's Mark.  Or a Houndmaster for Deadly Shot?  Gladiator's Longbow?

[HiveMindEmulator]

^That deck is just a super-aggro deck. You're never going to get above 50% vs Control Warrior or Priest, though you should be fast enough to give Handlock trouble, and should get some wins vs the super-control decks when you draw well. I don't think you can get enough from adding more removal compared to what you lose in aggression. If the game goes past turn 8, you're in bad shape either way.

[KingZog3]

I've been seeing hunters with similar decks run Leper Gnomes. I haven't been too impressed by them yet, but they do ok. Sludge belcher seems out of place though. It's a slow card isn't it? Or is the value too good not have at least one in your deck?

[HiveMindEmulator]

Sludge Belcher is in like every deck. It's just too good. In a control deck, it soaks up a bunch of damage from a more aggressive deck, and in the aggressive deck, it protects your other threats from being efficiently removed while sticking to the board to provide more damage itself (and also buffs undertaker).

[ashersky]

Sludge Belcher is in like every deck. It's just too good. In a control deck, it soaks up a bunch of damage from a more aggressive deck, and in the aggressive deck, it protects your other threats from being efficiently removed while sticking to the board to provide more damage itself (and also buffs undertaker).

This.  It can keep an undertaker alive for a highmane, for example.  The original ran two, I traded one out for Leeroy.

[ashersky]

Sludge Belcher is in like every deck. It's just too good. In a control deck, it soaks up a bunch of damage from a more aggressive deck, and in the aggressive deck, it protects your other threats from being efficiently removed while sticking to the board to provide more damage itself (and also buffs undertaker).

This.  It can keep an undertaker alive for a highmane, for example.  The original ran two, I traded one out for Leeroy.

You also need some taunts or they just play around Snake Trap.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I finally made Legend, with the Control Warrior deck I posted a few posts back. The matchup stats are pretty interesting. From rank 4 to legend, the deck went 42-22 breaking down as:
12-8 hunter
10-0 shaman
1-8 control warrior
5-1 zoolock
4-2 priest
2-2 handlock
2-1 miracle
5-0 other

Basically the deck did it's job of stomping down Hunter, Shaman, and Zoo (27-9, 75%) while being horrible vs more greedy Control Warrior decks (1-8, 11%). I think it should also be an underdog to Priest (though less so than other Control Warriors would be) and slightly to Handlock, but I was fortunate enough to be able to go 50%+ in those matchups.

[blueblimp]

How many of those Shamans were bots?

[HiveMindEmulator]

3 or 4. The deck is actually really good vs Shaman.

[ashersky]

How can you tell the bots from the humans?

[HiveMindEmulator]

They don't hover over cards in their hand before playing them and all moves have the same amount of time between them.

[ashersky]

They don't hover over cards in their hand before playing them and all moves have the same amount of time between them.

Do they have usernames that seem randomized and/or in Chinese characters?

[HiveMindEmulator]

No there is no point having a pure bot since you can't trade anything. People have to have the bot grind in their actual account.

[Jorbles]

I finally made Legend, with the Control Warrior deck I posted a few posts back. The matchup stats are pretty interesting. From rank 4 to legend, the deck went 42-22 breaking down as:
12-8 hunter
10-0 shaman
1-8 control warrior
5-1 zoolock
4-2 priest
2-2 handlock
2-1 miracle
5-0 other

Basically the deck did it's job of stomping down Hunter, Shaman, and Zoo (27-9, 75%) while being horrible vs more greedy Control Warrior decks (1-8, 11%). I think it should also be an underdog to Priest (though less so than other Control Warriors would be) and slightly to Handlock, but I was fortunate enough to be able to go 50%+ in those matchups.

I'm shocked at how under represented Mage and Druid are here. I don't play them exclusively, but my Watcher Druid and Secret Mage decks are my favourites. I still see a lot of Secret Mage at my level and some Token/Ramp Druid, are these not played at high level any more?

[blueblimp]

They don't hover over cards in their hand before playing them and all moves have the same amount of time between them.

This, weird arrows (pointing their arrow at hero power is common), no emotes, and golden shaman or warlock zoo, are all indicators. I've played vs bots that hover cards in their hand, but in such a bizarre un-human-like way that it's obvious they are bots.

[shraeye]

wait, there are bots that play hearthstone?

[HiveMindEmulator]

I'm shocked at how under represented Mage and Druid are here. I don't play them exclusively, but my Watcher Druid and Secret Mage decks are my favourites. I still see a lot of Secret Mage at my level and some Token/Ramp Druid, are these not played at high level any more?

There is an article on LiquidHearth using data from hearthstats.net users with breakdown of the percentage of each class played at various level tiers (among heathstats users). Mage and Druid are more common at lower levels and Hunter is more common at higher levels. Note of course that this is not a random sample.

[Kirian]

OK, so playing this hunter deck, in the space of about 15 games my Webspinners have given me Krush 3 times and Mukla once.  I think I have used up all my luck for the month.

[Jorbles]

OK, so playing this hunter deck, in the space of about 15 games my Webspinners have given me Krush 3 times and Mukla once.  I think I have used up all my luck for the month.

But have they given you The Beast yet? (I've gotten all three, but I'm always disappointed I didn't get a third Highmane, which has only happened once.)

[ashersky]

OK, so playing this hunter deck, in the space of about 15 games my Webspinners have given me Krush 3 times and Mukla once.  I think I have used up all my luck for the month.

But have they given you The Beast yet? (I've gotten all three, but I'm always disappointed I didn't get a third Highmane, which has only happened once.)

I get Mukla the most, the Krush, and The Beast just once.  I got a third Highmane once as well.  I feel like Hungry Crab is too often the prize.

The worst is another web spinner, though.

[HiveMindEmulator]

The worst is another web spinner, though.

How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

[ashersky]

The worst is another web spinner, though.

How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

Not literally, obviously.  But it's annoying.  You want something better, and on curve.  Another 1 mana lottery ticket token is a delay I don't need.

[Kirian]

The worst is another web spinner, though.

How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

Not literally, obviously.  But it's annoying.  You want something better, and on curve.  Another 1 mana lottery ticket token is a delay I don't need.

Sure, but it's also better than Chicken, Crab, Dragonhawk, Boar, or Parrot.

[HiveMindEmulator]

The worst is another web spinner, though.

How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

Not literally, obviously.  But it's annoying.  You want something better, and on curve.  Another 1 mana lottery ticket token is a delay I don't need.

Sure, but it's also better than Chicken, Crab, Dragonhawk, Boar, or Parrot.

as well as The Beast, Core Hound, Silverback, Timberwolf, Pather, Rhino, Grizzly, King Krush...

[markusin]

The worst is another web spinner, though.

How is that the worst? Any card that you would willingly put into your deck is good.

Not literally, obviously.  But it's annoying.  You want something better, and on curve.  Another 1 mana lottery ticket token is a delay I don't need.

Sure, but it's also better than Chicken, Crab, Dragonhawk, Boar, or Parrot.

as well as The Beast, Core Hound, Silverback, Timberwolf, Pather, Rhino, Grizzly, King Krush...

Timberwolf should be okay in a deck that runs Snake Trap. Grizzly isn't great, but can help boost Scavenging Hyena. But yeah another Webspinner can boost Undertaker or something.

[ashersky]

So, I'm considering dusting all my spare golden cards to craft a Legendary.  Question is, which one?  My playstyle is to have fast games, lots of aggro/face.  I'm not patient enough for control, plus my time to play is limited and I prefer quantity when I can get it. 

List of choices:
Cenarius
Archmage Antonidas
Tirion Fordring
Prophet Velen
Edwin Van Cleef
Al'Akir
Lord Jaraxxus
Grommash
Bloodmage Thalnos
Lorewalker Cho
Millhouse Manastorm
Nat Pagle
Tinkmaster Overspark
Elite Tauren Chieftain
Harrison Jones
Gelbin Mekkatorque
Hogger
Illidan Stormrage
Sylvanas Windrunner
The Beast
The Black Knight
Baron Geddon
Gruul
Ragnaros the Firelord
Malygos
Nozdormu
Onyxia
Ysera
Deathwing

[KingZog3]

So, I'm considering dusting all my spare golden cards to craft a Legendary.  Question is, which one?  My playstyle is to have fast games, lots of aggro/face.  I'm not patient enough for control, plus my time to play is limited and I prefer quantity when I can get it. 

If you want fast games, legendaries, or at least most of them, don't help. Most are control cards.

This would be my list of your actual choices.

List of choices:
Grommash
Bloodmage Thalnos
The Black Knight

I took out the silly ones, but of course you can carft the silly ones if you want to have some fun.

EDIT: Even Thalnos isn't great in aggro. Really aggro doesn't need legendaries. Zoo doesn't run any, aggro Paladin doesn't (and it kind of sucks), aggro wairrior could run Grommash, but also not a great deck. TBK is really good now because of all the sludge belchers.

[Titandrake]

For an aggro deck, none of those legendaries really helps you. If you're interested in Token Druid I'd pick Cenarius or Black Knight, otherwise I'd save your dust for new expansion.

[blueblimp]

The top aggro-y decks currently (zoo and hunter) tend not to run craftable legendaries, as stated. If Backspace Rogue ever makes a comeback, King Mukla is important there, but Mukla is not on your list so I assume you have it already. Leeroy is still good for face decks but also not on your list.

[ashersky]

Thanks for all the advice.  Makes sense.  Maybe an expansion legendary or many other cards will be worth the dust.

[KingZog3]

Thanks for all the advice.  Makes sense.  Maybe an expansion legendary or many other cards will be worth the dust.

I realise you want to play more games, but control decks are where it's at. Sure aggro is ok, Hunter does well, but I haven't seen much zoo lately and even Hunter isn't super popular.

[HiveMindEmulator]

There's also midrange/tempo decks. You don't have to play facerush to play fast.

[Jorbles]

Jorbles

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