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EFHW, for the subject.

3 (30%)

Andrew, against the subject.

7 (70%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: June 01, 2014, 11:42:12 pm

[ashersky]

As part of a forum mafia game, we are having a debate!

EFHW will argue for the subject.
Andrew will argue against the subject.

Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument.  Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.

Thanks!


P.S. - this was going to be in RSP, but I expect howls of indignation.  Bonus argument: RSP posters are way too sensitive.  Both players may argue for the subject.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Rebuild is Not Overpowered

Rebuild is one of those cards that nobody seems to like. It’s one of those cards that when seen on the board, an instinctive groan is uttered followed by a disgusted “Rebuild!” as the player sinks back into the couch and shakes his head in a disapproving manner. Is this because Rebuild is overpowered? No, I don’t think so.

There a number of reasons why Rebuild has gotten the reputation that it has. One is the fact that a number of people simply ignore other strategies when Rebuild is on the board. A Rebuild “tunnel vision” is employed in which the only cards that matter are Rebuild, Duchy, Province, and maybe Estate. Another reason Rebuild has been looked down upon is that everyone has had the experience of trying what they presumed to be a legitimate strategy only to be beaten by Rebuild. What I intend to prove to you is that these and other scenarios are a farce. A fabrication and misrepresentation of the usefulness and misuse of Rebuild to the point that it has been put on display as a blasphemous card that is too powerful for the game of Dominion. Most people would put Rebuild at the top of their “most powerful cards” list. Most people would be wrong.

   Let’s start with some discussion of Rebuild from the top Dominion players and strategists. The only appropriate person to start with would be Donald X. Vaccarino; the creator of Dominion himself. Here’s part of what he has to say about Rebuild:

In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.

   Most people when reading this nod their head in agreement, but I will offer an argument to this. First, Donald mentions Chapel. Chapel is a very strong card but most players wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s too strong. I agree, however I implore you to think about how the presence of Chapel affects any particular game. Chapel is a $2 card and it can trash four cards from your hand at once. No other card comes close to that kind of trashing power. With Chapel, Mountebank isn’t a problem, Ambassador is no big deal, and Cultist is but a minor nuisance. Maybe the biggest benefit of Chapel is accelerating engines at an astronomical rate. But has anybody spoken up to claim that Chapel is too powerful? Maybe, but you wont hear anybody seriously complain about it. Ill-Gotten Gains is the same way. If there is way to deny or get rid of curses, Ill-Gotten Gains is too powerful to ignore. Very quickly, the only cards that are bought are Ill-Gotten Gains and Duchy. But has anybody complained that Ill-Gotten Gains is too powerful? I haven’t heard anything. The difference is that Chapel and Ill-Gotten Gains for whatever reason have not garnered the negative feedback that Rebuild has, and thus players are programmed to groan when they see Rebuild on the board but not when they see Chapel or Ill-Gotten Gains.

   One major misconception of Rebuild is that one either buys Rebuild and pursues a strict Rebuild strategy, or one ignores Rebuild entirely. This, in my opinion, is poor play. In general, one must never fully ignore a card solely based on its purported lack of benefit outside of one or two specific strategies. Pirate Ship is a great example of this. Although there isn’t one specific “Pirate Ship strategy”, the card is generally thought of as being a weak big money enabler.  But I’m also sure we’ve all had at least one game where our opponent has used Pirate Ship effectively to win the game in convincing fashion. What does this say about Pirate Ship? That it’s a bad card unless used correctly? This is the wrong attitude. The correct way to view Pirate Ship, Rebuild, and any card is that it can be used in a variety of settings depending on the other cards and strategies available in a given kingdom. But don’t take my word for it, you can read this article written by Andrew Iannaconne and SheCantSayNo:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8398.0

As Andrew says, “This article isn't an introduction to Rebuild or a comprehensive treatment of the card. It focuses on two player games with Provinces and Estates where both players pursue a Rebuild strategy.” Andrew implies here that this is a more advanced and focused article on Rebuild and by no means an introduction of comprehensive discussion of the card. This clearly implies that there is much more to Rebuild than what this specific article explains. If we dissect this specific article, which is all about Rebuild mirrors, we will see that there are a number of different likely scenarios that could affect the power of Rebuild which are dependent on the different cards in the kingdom. AI outlines three distinct strategies one could pursue after “the Duchy race” has finished. He also mentions the importance of cards such as Rogue or Graverobber and alt-vp cards. All of this points to a number of complex strategies and a multi-dimensional card otherwise thought to be pretty straightforward.

   Right now you may be saying “well that’s all fine and good but if Rebuild is on the board, I’m going to buy it and I’m going to win and that makes it too powerful”. To that point I would simply say you are wrong. Let’s examine cases where Rebuild is not a valid strategy.

Here are a few kingdoms in which Rebuild almost certainly would not win:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10449.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10034.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11026.0

In each of these cases, the engines were just too fast and too powerful. Another important factor is that games with Colonies and/or Shelters are pretty good indicators that Rebuild might not be that important. AI explains why here:

Colonies weaken Rebuild. It takes several extra turns to go from 4-5 Provinces to 4-5 Colonies, and it's a whole lot easier for an engine to grab 4 Colonies in 19 turns than 4 Provinces in 14 turns. With 4 VP cards instead of 3, you also have a lot less control over what your Rebuilds hit.

Shelters weaken Rebuild because you no longer get a free Duchy with every early-game Rebuild you play. I'd estimate that Rebuild with Shelters is effectively 2-3 turns behind Rebuild with Estates. In the mirror, you should buy fewer early-game Rebuilds and buy more of your Duchies directly.

To build on this point consider cards that are bought every single game regardless of the other kingdom cards or starting cards. The card that immediately comes to mind is Goons. I have a hard time thinking of a situation in which I wouldn’t want multiple Goons in my deck, but I can give plenty of examples in which I wouldn’t buy Rebuild at all. But like Chapel and Ill-Gotten Gains, I rarely hear players complain about the power of Goons.

I’ve debunked the myth that Rebuild is more powerful than cards such as Chapel, Ill-Gotten Gains, and Goons, I’ve refuted the theory that Rebuild is an easy card to play and win with, and finally I’ve given plenty of evidence to suggest that Rebuild is just like other power cards in the sense that it has its time and place and there are cards that weaken its effectiveness. After seeing the evidence and considering the power of other cards that are often not considered as being as powerful as Rebuild, I am confident you will agree with me when I say that Rebuild is powerful, but is certainly not "overpowered".

[shraeye]

tig

[Voltaire]

/tag

[shraeye]

you can't tag on a tig.

[Davio]

Can we join in?

I don't think "overpowered" is the right word here. Overpowered makes more sense if there is an inherent imbalance and, like in LCGs/CCGs where one player has access to the card and the other doesn't. In Dominion, you can both buy it. Sure, you can start 5/2, but then the other guy gets some extra economy.

I think Dominating is a better term, it dominates too many boards it's on, even more so than Chapel or Goons. It's mostly unignorable, which makes it less fun.

[ashersky]

Can we join in?

Not until after the poll, please.

[EFHW]

Why is Dominion such a fun game?  Because with its base set, expansions and promo cards there are a total of 205 different kingdom cards, and each game is a new strategic challenge, inevitably based on combinations of cards with different properties.  Unless Rebuild is in the kingdom.  sudgy puts it well:

I was looking at a kingdom, and the first thing I noticed was Rats.  I was seeing if there was support for it, and noticed the Develop.  Develop a Rats and get a Silver and a $5 Action, not bad.  And there were five $5 Actions as well.  I was wondering if it would work well, and started looking at the $5 Actions.

Rebuild.

Well, I guess I'll have to try Rats/Develop another day.  My opponent went for it however.  (I still won though.  It's Rebuild.)

As does Asper:

My problem with Rebuild isn't that it wouldn't allow decisions or optimizations. My problem, personally, is that i don't want to be forced to build a strategy around a certain card as soon as it is on the board. Sure, most cards will be included in a board's best strategy sometimes. But it can't be that some cards are always included in it. I don't draw 10 kingdom cards to decide which of them supports Rebuild best. I draw 10 to decide which combination of any of them i'll try. Rebuild kills what makes Dominion awesome for me.

Let’s compare Rebuild to other 5 cost cards.  Witch is good because it gives out curses, but once they run out, it is a terminal draw 2 card.  Like Moat without the protection.  Junk Dealer can be a great card, but if you run out of things to trash, you can’t use it unless it’s the last card in your hand.  Tactician is awesome.  It gives you a 10 card turn with 2 actions and 2 buys.  But it’s a terminal action and you can’t play any treasures on the turn you activate it.  Knights are pretty good attackers, but with one exception they are all terminal actions, and they will be trashed if they encounter an opponent’s knight.  Other cards like Tournament or Cultist depend on your getting another card in your hand at the same time (Province for Tournament, another Cultist for Cultist).  This isn’t an exhaustive survey, of course, but basically most 5 cost cards give you a really good action and then have some limiting factor or drawback.  Rebuild is +1 action and on its own gives you 2-4 points each time you play it, without clogging up your deck with new green cards, though to take full advantage of it you may choose to buy estates and duchies.  It also cycles your deck, making clogging much less of a problem.  You don’t need to worry about shuffle luck, because with Rebuild, you can go through your entire deck and discard pile to get the Victory card if you need to.   

Looking at cards costing more, Expand is a very slow trasher.  Hunting Grounds is a terminal that gives you 4 cards.  Helpful, yes.  Game changing, no.  Forge and Kings Court can be really powerful, which is why they cost 7.  Rebuild, in my opinion, is more powerful than Kings Court, and only costs 5.  Also, you have to draw Kings Court with an action and preferably another Kings Court and some draw cards for it to be useful, making it a valuable part of combinations of cards, and requiring strategy to be used successfully.

There are cards you can combine with Rebuild to make it even stronger.  Count, for instance, supplies you with duchies to promote to provinces.   But combining Rebuild with other cards can slow it down, so that it can actually be stronger on its own than when paired with powerful other cards. 

For these reasons I think Rebuild is both too inexpensive for what it does, and too dominating a strategy that can easily take the challenge out of a game.

[ashersky]

Thanks to the debaters.  The thread will lock for 24 hours and a poll will go up.

After the voting period ends, the thread will reopen for discussion as desired.

[ashersky]

Open for discussion, thanks.

[sudgy]

I almost wanted to vote for EFHW just for quoting me.  I refrained from doing so, however.