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[brokoli]

Torturer really surprises me, I don't see how it could be higher than IGG or Minion

[Moneymodel]

Mrr, didn't get any of the places right, go figure. I got the HP-Witch-Cultist sequence, but one place too low...darn Wharf, stayin' so strong and bein' in 3rd place.

I think Butcher will rise in the coming lists, as will Merchant Guild.

[Blueswan]

For a while there I actually thought that Rebuild might take #1.

[Blueswan]

In a weak kingdom with say cards like Pearldiver, Duchess, Workshop, Woodcutter, Fortune Teller, Scout, Talisman, Harvest, Rebuild and Mountebank, do you go for a Rebuild strategy or a Mountebank strategy?

Instinctively, I would probably just go Rebuild, but I'm far from an expert.

[terminalCopper]

In a weak kingdom with say cards like Pearldiver, Duchess, Workshop, Woodcutter, Fortune Teller, Scout, Talisman, Harvest, Rebuild and Mountebank, do you go for a Rebuild strategy or a Mountebank strategy?

Instinctively, I would probably just go Rebuild, but I'm far from an expert.

.

I'd get one Mountebank and then switch to Rebuilds.

[ChocophileBenj]

Rebuild your strategies ! Wharf is above witch ! (Oarf is above Nihal) And Cultist, too !

Of course, I was wondering where Rebuild would end. I think #2 is fine, even if it means Mountebank and Witch are now split... but I didn't think Witch, witch which was here since the beginning, would drop so easily !

And I hope there'll be a favourite card list... and I hope Rebuild won't be so high because... well, even if I didn't play with, I can understand people who find it boring !

[Awaclus]

Well, at least I predicted Mountebank being overrated and Cultist being underrated correctly.

[shark_bait]

Junk Dealer is too low.  I would move it up to 6 at a minimum.  It really is that good.  It allows you to both trash your deck and build up your engine at the same time.  No card can do that as well as Junk Dealer can.

Upgrade is restricted to price points
Counterfeit doesn't cycle and only does treasure
Steward trashes first and then can build up (assuming no other terminals)
Remake is restricted to price points
Trading Post doesn't cycle and fills you up with Silver
Salvager is slow and is really bad at Copper
Remodel is slow and requires something you want at $4 and/or $2

So the point is.... Junk Dealer has no limitations that other trashers have with the slight exception that it costs $5 so unless you start $5/$2 you need to wait until turns 3/4 to get it.  But even then as soon as you have a couple of them, some sort of sifting or draw, your engine will be up in no time with the bonus of becoming functional a midst the trashing.

I've learned the hard way that Junk Dealer is that good.  I can think of a couple games where I ignored it to my peril.  One of HP/X where my opponent used JD to trash Estates and then Coppers.  He crushed me.  The other was an engine where my opponent went JD for trashing while I went Counterfeit.  His engine got going much better than mine and I lost convincingly. 

[silverspawn]

let's count points!

terminalCopper:

1.) Rebuild
2.) Cultist
3.) Mountebank
4.) Wharf
5.) Witch

that's 1+2+2+1=6

assembleMe

1) Mountebank
2) Witch
3) Rebuild
4) Wharf
5) Cultist

that's 0+3+1+1+1=6

silver:

swap witch and rebuild and i guess the exact same thing.

so that's 0+0+2+1+1 = 4

soulnet:

1. Rebuild
2. Mountebank
3. Witch
4. Cultist
5. Wharf

that's 1+1+2+0+2 = 6

hvb:

1.) Cultist
2.) Mountebank
3.) Rebuild
4.) Wharf
5.) Witch

3+1+1+1+0 = 6

CB:

Mountebank
Witch
Rebuild
Wharf
Cultist

that's 0+3+1+1+2 = 7

Awaclus:

1.) Rebuild
2.) Mountebank
3.) Cultist
4.) Witch
5.) Junk Dealer

that's 1+1+1+1+6 = 11

BraveBear:

1. Rebuild
2. Cultist
3. Mountebank
4. Wharf
5. Junk Dealer

that's 1+2+2+1+6 = 12

and i think SCSN and beyond awesome weren't predictions but their own rankings

um...   

[terminalCopper]

Junk Dealer is too low.  I would move it up to 6 at a minimum.  It really is that good.  It allows you to both trash your deck and build up your engine at the same time.  No card can do that as well as Junk Dealer can.

Upgrade is restricted to price points
Counterfeit doesn't cycle and only does treasure
Steward trashes first and then can build up (assuming no other terminals)
Remake is restricted to price points
Trading Post doesn't cycle and fills you up with Silver
Salvager is slow and is really bad at Copper
Remodel is slow and requires something you want at $4 and/or $2

So the point is.... Junk Dealer has no limitations that other trashers have with the slight exception that it costs $5 so unless you start $5/$2 you need to wait until turns 3/4 to get it.  But even then as soon as you have a couple of them, some sort of sifting or draw, your engine will be up in no time with the bonus of becoming functional a midst the trashing.

I've learned the hard way that Junk Dealer is that good.  I can think of a couple games where I ignored it to my peril.  One of HP/X where my opponent used JD to trash Estates and then Coppers.  He crushed me.  The other was an engine where my opponent went JD for trashing while I went Counterfeit.  His engine got going much better than mine and I lost convincingly.

Yeah, Junk Dealer is an excellent trasher. And I agree that it's more impactful than all the other trashers you've mentioned. But, none of them is ahead of JD in this ranking; the Top10 cards are excellent gamechangers themselves, and it's always hard to  compare them.

[florrat]

Note that the top 5 cards are very close together. The difference between Mountebank and Witch is 4.1pp, which is hardly significant, so it will probably change a bit next year. However, the difference between #5 and #6 is a whopping 6.1pp, which is definitely significant.

[LastFootnote]

Maybe this has been noted before, but I find it amusing that the community's lowest-ranked $5 card is a counter to its highest-ranked $5 card.

Not saying it's a problem. It's just funny.

[jaybeez]

Cultist and Witch below Wharf??

[silverspawn]

Cultist and Witch below Wharf??

yes and they belong there. wharf is super extra amazing, maybe the least often skippable card in the game

[Awaclus]

Cultist and Witch below Wharf??

yes and they belong there. wharf is super extra amazing, maybe the least often skippable card in the game

This is a list of situations where you can ignore Cultist:
 -
 -
 -
 -
Oh, and I almost forgot this one:
 -

[silverspawn]

Cultist and Witch below Wharf??

yes and they belong there. wharf is super extra amazing, maybe the least often skippable card in the game

This is a list of situations where you can ignore Cultist:
 -
 -
 -
 -
Oh, and I almost forgot this one:
 -

i remember a bunch of games where i ignored cultist and won. vineyards and JoaT are possible reasons, but also stronger junkers (i.e. Mountebank). lighthouse may be enough of a reason too, when combined with a strong trasher. stonemaison + scrying pool + trasher is probably enough

[Holger]

In a weak kingdom with say cards like Pearldiver, Duchess, Workshop, Woodcutter, Fortune Teller, Scout, Talisman, Harvest, Rebuild and Mountebank, do you go for a Rebuild strategy or a Mountebank strategy?

Instinctively, I would probably just go Rebuild, but I'm far from an expert.

.

I'd get one Mountebank and then switch to Rebuilds.

This seems to be the optimal strategy on this board, according to Dominiate. Rebuild beats Mountebank among the one-card strategies, but combining them as you say beats either. Rebuild-Duchess bridges more than half the gap from pure Rebuild to Mount.-Rebuild, but it's not quite enough (45:55).
But e.g. Rebuild-Militia beats Mountebank-Rebuild.

This is a list of situations where you can ignore Cultist:
 - almost any Rebuild board
 -
 -
 -
Oh, and I almost forgot this one:
 -

FTFY  (Maybe not in Colony games...)

[silverspawn]

But e.g. Rebuild-Militia beats Mountebank-Rebuild.

that comparison doesn't make sense. it's never mountebank or militia. you have to choose between militia and silver, because both are t1/2 options, and between rebuild and mount likewise. if all three are present, you open militia/silver, get one early mount and then go into rebuild

to put it differently, not opening militia or cutpurse on a rebuild board is just silly (most of the time), and that goes regardless of whether or not you add mountebank later

[Holger]

But e.g. Rebuild-Militia beats Mountebank-Rebuild.

that comparison doesn't make sense. it's never mountebank or militia. you have to choose between militia and silver, because both are t1/2 options, and between rebuild and mount likewise. if all three are present, you open militia/silver, get one early mount and then go into rebuild

It's not that simple because Militia and Mountebank are both terminals which you don't want to collide (and of course there's 2/5 starts to consider). So you might not want to gain both even if either one helps Rebuild, or you may prefer a second Militia to sacrificing a $5 buy on a (potentially colliding) Mountebank.

[silverspawn]

But e.g. Rebuild-Militia beats Mountebank-Rebuild.

that comparison doesn't make sense. it's never mountebank or militia. you have to choose between militia and silver, because both are t1/2 options, and between rebuild and mount likewise. if all three are present, you open militia/silver, get one early mount and then go into rebuild

It's not that simple because Militia and Mountebank are both terminals which you don't want to collide (and of course there's 2/5 starts to consider). So you might not want to gain both even if either one helps Rebuild, or you may prefer a second Militia to sacrificing a $5 buy on a (potentially colliding) Mountebank.

yes, but the question is not "do i get militia or not", you're always going to get militia, it's just too important. the question is: "do i still get mountebank", and i'm pretty sure that you do. 2 terminals in a deck without draw or trashing isn't the end of the world, and if your opponent doesn't get a mount on his own, you can always change plans, ignore rebuild and play a BM strategy. my game sense tells me that BM-Mount > Rebuild >? Rebuild/Mount > BM-Mount, if all strategies use militia. mb i'm wrong here, but I'll have a very hard time believing that militia is enough of a reason not to get mount

second militia is a nombo, it's important early on. 5/2 is a different story, but I'm pretty sure you go mount there.

[ehunt]

Cultist and Witch below Wharf??

yes and they belong there. wharf is super extra amazing, maybe the least often skippable card in the game

This is a list of situations where you can ignore Cultist:
 -
 -
 -
 -
Oh, and I almost forgot this one:
 -

In this game I ignore it against a good player and eke out a win. I think it's a mite overrated although still a top ten card.
https://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20131116/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1384623109713.txt

Torturer otoh is like criminally overrated, probably bc it sucks so much to be on the losing end. The problem is that there are so many boards where it's skippable.

[ehunt]

Cultist and Witch below Wharf??

yes and they belong there. wharf is super extra amazing, maybe the least often skippable card in the game

This is a list of situations where you can ignore Cultist:
 -
 -
 -
 -
Oh, and I almost forgot this one:
 -

In this game I ignore it against a good player and eke out a win. I think it's a mite overrated although still a top ten card.
https://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20131116/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1384623109713.txt

Torturer otoh is like criminally overrated, probably bc it sucks so much to be on the losing end. The problem is that there are so many boards where it's skippable.

Aand... I bought a cultist that game after all. This argument used to seem more compelling.

[Beyond Awesome]

Part 6

Regarding Rebuild:

I'm interested to hear your opinions on this card. I don't want to say to much personal opinions in this series, but I expect it to be much higher the next time because it's a card which seems not so strong at first glance, but honestly is.

But, I still had it way too low. Big shout-out for Wandering Winder and Beyond Awesome who had it highest at #5 last year.

The funny thing is that when I ranked it #5 last year, I was playing on Goko but almost no one from iso had come over yet. I knew Rebuild was strong but neither SCSN's article (or was it AI's article) existed. It was a strong card, but I did not know how to properly use it at the time.
 
Anyway, the biggest surprise for me is seeing Wharf at #3. However, for the top 5, all of these cards are powerful. It is hard to say which of these are truly the strongest. I imagine opinions will continue to change for these cards as time goes on, although, they will continue to be the top 5 cards.

[awildnoobappeared]

Cultist and Witch below Wharf??

yes and they belong there. wharf is super extra amazing, maybe the least often skippable card in the game

This is a list of situations where you can ignore Cultist:
 -
 -
 -
 -
Oh, and I almost forgot this one:
 -

i remember a bunch of games where i ignored cultist and won. vineyards and JoaT are possible reasons, but also stronger junkers (i.e. Mountebank). lighthouse may be enough of a reason too, when combined with a strong trasher. stonemaison + scrying pool + trasher is probably enough

I remember a game where I beat Cultist with PStone+Storeroom (which is known to be a strong combo, made even stronger by all those Ruins) - it was close though, and I have no idea what its win rate is like against it.

[Awaclus]

I remember a game where I beat Cultist with PStone+Storeroom (which is known to be a strong combo, made even stronger by all those Ruins) - it was close though, and I have no idea what its win rate is like against it.

Even then, you had to pick a strategy that works well specifically against Cultist -> you didn't ignore Cultist.