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[SanChristo]

I really love the idea of knights but I haven't been able to figure out how to use them. My wife, on the other hand, has no interest in them. I've gone so far as to try to pick starting ten specifically so that knights are desirable. I get them, she doesn't, and I still lose.

Can anyone suggest starting ten in which knights are awesome?

[-Stef-]

Knights is a tricky card, and not easy to formulate generic rules about it.
I'll try some, but do know that every rule here has its exceptions.

0. In general, Knights aren't a great card. Start with 'no' until you find reasons to go 'yes'.
1. Knights trash cards from your opponent. If it's hard for your opponent to get cards, they're good (say a kingdom with an engine but no +buy)
2. Knights can trash cards where the split is very important (say, a game with Duke where trashing a few Duchies makes a huge difference)
3. Knights can be the only card that provides something the kingdom is lacking. Again, think about a strong engine without +buy (Sir Martin), or without trashing (Dame Anna), or villages+coucilroom finished off by Sir Michael.
4. Knights can be really good if you can select what you trash (scrying pool, oracle, spy, ...)
5. If both players go Knights, it's usually good to get as many as you can get. However, if you're the only one buying them, you should probably stop after getting 3-4.

You asked for a kingdom so here is one:
Village, Smithy, Farming Village, Rabble, Trading Post, Border Village, Knights, Harem, Duke, Silk Road.

Here is a game that shows what can happen if you ignore knights where you shouldn't.

[Awaclus]

I see Stef already said pretty much everything I was going to say and more while I was typing, but it's worth noting that Fairgrounds also works very well with Knights.

[dominion123]

I also think knights work much better when both have thin decks, you play them more often and is more likely to hit something valuable.

[SirPeebles]

I see Stef already said pretty much everything I was going to say and more while I was typing, but it's worth noting that Fairgrounds also works very well with Knights.

Does it really?  Seems like a nombo to me.  In a Fairgrounds game, you often pick up one copy of lots of cards, and with Knights trashing your cards is can be difficult to keep up your diversity and keep track of your numbers.  Sure, having multiple Knights helps, but probably your opponent is buying Knights which trash yours.

[SirPeebles]

I also think knights work much better when both have thin decks, you play them more often and is more likely to hit something valuable.

Isn't this true of many (most?) cards?

[hsiale]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1394545184981.txt

In this game my opponent ignored Knights and I managed to use them to trash all of his cost 3-6 cards. He had to resort to a few Coppers and aim to 3-pile on Steward/Estate (I emptied the Wandering Mistrel pile). He had 7 Provinces but no chance to buy the last one, unfortunately he managed to get last Estate a turn before I could buy my 7th Fairgrounds and move into the lead. I think I could win if I really took time to think on Wandering Minstrel reorderings or figured a way to get my Fairgrounds up to 8 points which was definitely possible.

[dominion123]

I also think knights work much better when both have thin decks, you play them more often and is more likely to hit something valuable.

Isn't this true of many (most?) cards?

Yes, but it seems much more impactful than usual to me for knights since you're actually trashing your opponents good cards. In any case, the point is that knights often become indispensable in these situations. You might just lose all your cards unless you go for them.

[Co0kieL0rd]

I see Stef already said pretty much everything I was going to say and more while I was typing, but it's worth noting that Fairgrounds also works very well with Knights.

Does it really?  Seems like a nombo to me.  In a Fairgrounds game, you often pick up one copy of lots of cards, and with Knights trashing your cards is can be difficult to keep up your diversity and keep track of your numbers.  Sure, having multiple Knights helps, but probably your opponent is buying Knights which trash yours.

I also think knights work much better when both have thin decks, you play them more often and is more likely to hit something valuable.

Isn't this true of many (most?) cards?

This is both correct but in a Fairgrounds-Knights game, a slightly bigger deck with duplicates of most cards might help keeping enemy Knights from trashing single or key cards. Wouldn't it be worth it?

[SanChristo]

Knights is a tricky card, and not easy to formulate generic rules about it.
I'll try some, but do know that every rule here has its exceptions...

These rules are crazy helpful thanks.

The problems I've run into with knights are:
1) Their "bonus" feature makes them unpredictable. I don't know what's going to come up and can't build a deck around them.
2) They often fail as attacks because the top two cards on my opponents deck aren't between 3 and 6. Early in the game, they're too low. Late in the game, they're either high (provinces) or irrelevant.

You asked for a kingdom so here is one:
Village, Smithy, Farming Village, Rabble, Trading Post, Border Village, Knights, Harem, Duke, Silk Road.

This is way helpful too. I don't yet have Hinterlands or Cornucopia, so I'll have to find some replacements for the Border Village, Farming Village, and Silk Road.

I've got the original, Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, and Dark Ages.

Thanks again for all the help.

[markusin]

I see Stef already said pretty much everything I was going to say and more while I was typing, but it's worth noting that Fairgrounds also works very well with Knights.

I think Menagerie is the real power synergy.

[Polk5440]

I see Stef already said pretty much everything I was going to say and more while I was typing, but it's worth noting that Fairgrounds also works very well with Knights.

Does it really?  Seems like a nombo to me.  In a Fairgrounds game, you often pick up one copy of lots of cards, and with Knights trashing your cards is can be difficult to keep up your diversity and keep track of your numbers.  Sure, having multiple Knights helps, but probably your opponent is buying Knights which trash yours.

I think Knights and Fairgrounds can be interesting -- not always a combo or nombo.

For example, I found this game very interesting. Knights were pretty clearly important and there was lots of good stuff for Fairgrounds. The biggest difference in our play was that I bought a Jack. This gave me the needed Silvers for buying power and decoys for his Knights to hit.

Knights, like Pirate Ship, Embargo, and Possession can often affect what strategy you adopt without anyone ever buying one. So that's important to keep in mind, too.

Speaking of interesting kingdoms, you are submitting to the Kingdom Design Challenge, right?

[Asper]

I had a nasty Rebuild game once (not the usual way). I was behind, because i somehow skipped Rebuild, but i managed to grab a few Alchemists. My first Knight was Dame Molly, and using my Alchemists i played her, at least one other Knight and a Saboteur every turn. It was ugly, but i actually won. Sadly it was a game against bots, so i'm not sure how much it proves, but i'm pretty sure no real human would have sat through that anyhow...

[DG]

What more is there to say about knights? In multiplayer they can become a very difficult cards as not all players are affected equally when knights trash each other. If you let other players fight over knights they might all come off worse. On the other hand they might put all your deck into the graveyard and it isn't always obvious which will happen.

Trashing out coppers and estates from your deck will make knight attacks on your deck hit more often. This includes your knights getting hit more often in multiplayer too. Your hands are likely to stay strong since they are without junk but your deck might lose time buying enough assets to sustain province buying later.

I think the individual qualities of the knights are really important. Really, really important. Taking a poor knight into your deck and revealing a good knight to your opponents is often a mistake. As usual though there's another side to that. If you put a bad knight into your deck for a chance to trash a good knight of your opponent, is that worth it?

[Awaclus]

I see Stef already said pretty much everything I was going to say and more while I was typing, but it's worth noting that Fairgrounds also works very well with Knights.

Does it really?  Seems like a nombo to me.  In a Fairgrounds game, you often pick up one copy of lots of cards, and with Knights trashing your cards is can be difficult to keep up your diversity and keep track of your numbers.  Sure, having multiple Knights helps, but probably your opponent is buying Knights which trash yours.

And that's why you win the Knights split, trash his Knights and still have a couple of Knights left. If you're on the receiving end of this, then it doesn't work too well with Fairgrounds.

[BraveBear]

There a many cards that are must buys when Kings Court is on the board.  Knights is close to the top of that list.

[SanChristo]

Speaking of interesting kingdoms, you are submitting to the Kingdom Design Challenge, right?

Well, I am now! Thanks for the heads up.

I'm fairly new to the game (six months and five expansions) and very very new to the forum. I have, however, posted three of my favorite setups on dominiondeck.com. They all have intense themes that I'm wagering are old hat for experienced folks. Still, check them out if you:

http://www.dominiondeck.com/users/sanchristo

[SanChristo]

There a many cards that are must buys when Kings Court is on the board.  Knights is close to the top of that list.

I'd never thought of that. I was pondering on why to buy Knights (which often fail) as opposed to a militia which is cheaper and has an attack which--while less powerful--has a way higher success rate. But you've answered my question before I could ask it. King's Court (and Throneroom) would improve the knight tremendously and the militia negligibly.

[sudgy]

I think Knights+Fairgrounds is a nombo, I tried it once, but my opponent got a bunch too and we ended up trashing them all.  I had nothing special then, and a not-too-great deck.

[soulnet]

I think Knights+Fairgrounds is a nombo, I tried it once, but my opponent got a bunch too and we ended up trashing them all.  I had nothing special then, and a not-too-great deck.

Your evidence does not support your hypothesis. On the contrary, the fact that you both felt like going for them could mean there was a reason, and Fairgrounds was probably it. If you get all 10 Knights in a Fairgrounds game your Fairgrounds are worth 4 VP more AND you will be trashing some of your opponent's Fairgrounds. Knights+Fairgrounds slog can be really powerful in a non-mirror. You do need something to sustain your economy when trying to slog a game and buy $5s and $6s, but Silver gainers will do. Knights will drag the game out for you (usually), so you do not need to pound on Fairgrounds early, as it is the case with other games when Fairground is good and winning the split is critical.

[Beyond Awesome]

Knights don't do much against BM, but against engines, they can really wreak havoc on the opposing player if they ignore knights. They might get lucky but chances are you will knock out  a few key cards which will put them behind.

[sudgy]

I think Knights+Fairgrounds is a nombo, I tried it once, but my opponent got a bunch too and we ended up trashing them all.  I had nothing special then, and a not-too-great deck.

Your evidence does not support your hypothesis. On the contrary, the fact that you both felt like going for them could mean there was a reason, and Fairgrounds was probably it. If you get all 10 Knights in a Fairgrounds game your Fairgrounds are worth 4 VP more AND you will be trashing some of your opponent's Fairgrounds. Knights+Fairgrounds slog can be really powerful in a non-mirror. You do need something to sustain your economy when trying to slog a game and buy $5s and $6s, but Silver gainers will do. Knights will drag the game out for you (usually), so you do not need to pound on Fairgrounds early, as it is the case with other games when Fairground is good and winning the split is critical.

He started getting Knights because I was getting them, not because of Fairgrounds.

[Awaclus]

I think Knights+Fairgrounds is a nombo, I tried it once, but my opponent got a bunch too and we ended up trashing them all.  I had nothing special then, and a not-too-great deck.

Your evidence does not support your hypothesis. On the contrary, the fact that you both felt like going for them could mean there was a reason, and Fairgrounds was probably it. If you get all 10 Knights in a Fairgrounds game your Fairgrounds are worth 4 VP more AND you will be trashing some of your opponent's Fairgrounds. Knights+Fairgrounds slog can be really powerful in a non-mirror. You do need something to sustain your economy when trying to slog a game and buy $5s and $6s, but Silver gainers will do. Knights will drag the game out for you (usually), so you do not need to pound on Fairgrounds early, as it is the case with other games when Fairground is good and winning the split is critical.

He started getting Knights because I was getting them, not because of Fairgrounds.

And you were getting them because of Fairgrounds. That still means that Knights are very powerful because of Fairgrounds.

[eHalcyon]

You can think of it another way -- what would happen if you opponent didn't stop you?  If they didn't get Knights themselves, you would end up with huge Fairgrounds and probably a decisive victory.  I think Knights + Fairgrounds is certainly a combo, just one that is also its own counter.  To me, nombos are cards that you think would work well together when they actually don't.  Knights do work well with Fairgrounds.  It's just that they also work well against your opponent's Fairgrounds as well.

[yed]

Knights don't do much against BM, but against engines, they can really wreak havoc on the opposing player if they ignore knights. They might get lucky but chances are you will knock out  a few key cards which will put them behind.

I think Knights are strong against big money if you can set them to a reliable engine and play them each turn.