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[eHalcyon]

Might be a 1/10 chance for hitting two copper, but there's also the chance of hitting one copper which also isn't that great.  You have 24% chance of hitting two Estates.  But hey, this is assuming you open 5/2.  What if you open 2/5?  You'll be an additional turn behind if you skip the $2 hand, or you'll drop the percentages for a good Doctor overpay if you buy something.

I would rarely open doctor with 2/5, and certainly not if there's chapel. 5/2 doctor is extremely strong, but man, one turn difference is huge.

Again, Doctor is a good opening.  I am not arguing against that.  But silerspawn said that $5 Doctor is the BEST opening, better than any Chapel opening and "as good as it gets".  I am saying that it isn't at all clear that Doctor is the very best, and that there are certainly boards where Chapel would be the better choice.

Well, it's only the best if you want to trash down quickly. If you go for a garden rush, it's a terrible opening. You can compare it to chapel because you generally want to do the same thing with both. Are there boards where chapel is better? Yea, every shelter board. Trashing shelters with doctor is such a pain. Aside from that though, I don't think it really depends on the board. Maybe the importance of hitting 5$ is a factor, but generally they will behave similar on most boards, since you want to do the same thing with both of them. I just feel like 5$ doctor kills junk faster than chapel and has more buying power, so it's just better no matter what the rest of the board looks like. I'm not certain, even though I've played quite a lot of games with both, it's possible that I was lucky with doctor in most of them. This is actually something simulations could give answers to.

Can't believe this is the second time I'm defending a $3 trasher. Uh, but overall chapel is defintely better. 5$ doctor opening is great, but you only open with 5$ in... *doing maths* 8,3% of all games. Doctor is like trading post, very good early but loses strength really fast.

It seems you are backing off of your earlier claims, so I'm not so much in disagreement.  Again, all I was saying is that $5 Doctor opening is not always the best, and that Chapel can win out sometimes and it isn't always clear which one has the adantage.  You say that the two can be fairly similar, and I can agree with that.

On a specific points, you say that Doctor trashes faster and has more buying power.  I don't think this is completely accurate.  Doctor is initially faster, whereas Chapel is faster overall.  That initial speed can be very important, but Chapel is more reliable against junking attacks as well as against bad shuffle luck, while still being almost as fast.  In the specific case of 5/2 opening hands, Chapel has much higher initial buying power (since you get to use that $5 hand to buy something awesome) while Doctor allows for more buying power on the hands when it is played.

[markusin]

Might be a 1/10 chance for hitting two copper, but there's also the chance of hitting one copper which also isn't that great.  You have 24% chance of hitting two Estates.  But hey, this is assuming you open 5/2.  What if you open 2/5?  You'll be an additional turn behind if you skip the $2 hand, or you'll drop the percentages for a good Doctor overpay if you buy something.

I would rarely open doctor with 2/5, and certainly not if there's chapel. 5/2 doctor is extremely strong, but man, one turn difference is huge.

Again, Doctor is a good opening.  I am not arguing against that.  But silerspawn said that $5 Doctor is the BEST opening, better than any Chapel opening and "as good as it gets".  I am saying that it isn't at all clear that Doctor is the very best, and that there are certainly boards where Chapel would be the better choice.

Well, it's only the best if you want to trash down quickly. If you go for a garden rush, it's a terrible opening. You can compare it to chapel because you generally want to do the same thing with both. Are there boards where chapel is better? Yea, every shelter board. Trashing shelters with doctor is such a pain. Aside from that though, I don't think it really depends on the board. Maybe the importance of hitting 5$ is a factor, but generally they will behave similar on most boards, since you want to do the same thing with both of them. I just feel like 5$ doctor kills junk faster than chapel and has more buying power, so it's just better no matter what the rest of the board looks like. I'm not certain, even though I've played quite a lot of games with both, it's possible that I was lucky with doctor in most of them. This is actually something simulations could give answers to.

Can't believe this is the second time I'm defending a $3 trasher. Uh, but overall chapel is defintely better. 5$ doctor opening is great, but you only open with 5$ in... *doing maths* 8,3% of all games. Doctor is like trading post, very good early but loses strength really fast.

You know what, 5/2 opening with doctor (or 6/2 or 5/3) really does sound good for trashing, especially if you hit Estates with the overpay. You just need good cards to get at low costs.

[shark_bait]

The thing with Doctor is that you just have to name the right card.  Assuming your deck isn't too large, with some knowledge of your deck state you can name the right card which probability says is the best card to name.  Just like chapel gets behind with a T5 draw, Doctor can get behind with only trashing 1-Card.  That really sets you back immensely as your deck doesn't get any smaller and you then have a harder time of knowing exactly what card to name.  Doctor games can swing quickly to one players favor based on differences in the opening hands and subsequent naming of cards. 

[Joseph2302]

Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

[KingZog3]

Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

I think a lot of people had this phase. I ceratinly thought Tunnel was one of the best until I realized it's not.

[silverspawn]

Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

double market square opening will beat double amb almost 1 of 10000000000000 times

[LastFootnote]

Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

double market square opening will beat double amb almost 1 of 10000000000000 times

Ha! My phone thinks "10000000000000" is a phone number and creates a link for it.

[Tables]

Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

Wait, Tunnel isn't your favourite card any more? I remember the days of you always trying to include Tunnel in the kingdom...

[KingZog3]

Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

Wait, Tunnel isn't your favourite card any more? I remember the days of you always trying to include Tunnel in the kingdom...

Well Market Square can get the Golds while keeping a smaller deck. It's more engine friendly that's for sure. Plus it's a cantrip.

[markusin]

I'm more or less fine with this list, except I can't understand how Storeroom DROPPED in points. C'mon guys, most draw engines love Storeroom. Sifting, discarding green for coin, and even +buy. Storeroom's also great when it comes to getting potion cards.

[Awaclus]

I'm more or less fine with this list, except I can't understand how Storeroom DROPPED in points. C'mon guys, most draw engines love Storeroom. Sifting, discarding green for coin, and even +buy. Storeroom's also great when it comes to getting potion cards.

Terminal sifting isn't that great, and you don't want to have a lot of green to discard for coin usually. The +buy part is useful, though. It's mostly good for getting potion cards, double Tactician and draw-to-X and Scrying Pool engines, as well as getting early $5s if those are important, but other than that, it's usually skippable.

EDIT: Ah, I see now that this is pretty much exactly what Qvist said about it too. Well, at least I said one thing that wasn't in the Part 2/3 post!

[Joseph2302]

Tunnel should be 2, and market square 1, they're just both amazing- my favourite 2 cards!!

Wait, Tunnel isn't your favourite card any more? I remember the days of you always trying to include Tunnel in the kingdom...

Nah market square is much more fun, more golds more easily etc. Also, now is a good time to point out my avatar is market square, so i obviously like it more.

[silverspawn]

you know there's a diffenrece between liking a card and estimating its power level?

[Joseph2302]

you know there's a diffenrece between liking a card and estimating its power level?

Yes, however I do tend to think cards I like are strong. Although, obviously I know Ambassador/Masquerade/Rebuild etc.. are strong, despite not particularly liking any of these.

[markusin]

I'm more or less fine with this list, except I can't understand how Storeroom DROPPED in points. C'mon guys, most draw engines love Storeroom. Sifting, discarding green for coin, and even +buy. Storeroom's also great when it comes to getting potion cards.

Terminal sifting isn't that great, and you don't want to have a lot of green to discard for coin usually. The +buy part is useful, though. It's mostly good for getting potion cards, double Tactician and draw-to-X and Scrying Pool engines, as well as getting early $5s if those are important, but other than that, it's usually skippable.

EDIT: Ah, I see now that this is pretty much exactly what Qvist said about it too. Well, at least I said one thing that wasn't in the Part 2/3 post!

Storeroom works well in any Village-Smithy variant deck. Not sure how common those are anymore. So far, I've been pretty satisfied with Storeroom's performance to rate it higher. I'll see if I keep it there for the next card ranking.

[HiveMindEmulator]

^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.

[Awaclus]

^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.

This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I am glad Masq. is number 1. I think prior to DA that Amb. was probably deserving of the number one spot but shelters, ruins and other strategies are causing me to buy Amb. less often, and I now find myself buying Masq. more often.

[KingZog3]

^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.

This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.

[Mic Qsenoch]

^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.

This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.

inb4 Storeroom is worse because Cellar joke.

[GeoLib]

^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.

This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.

inb4 Storeroom is worse because Cellar joke.

Storeroom is worse because cellar and Cellar is worse because warehouse
∴ Storeroom is worse because warehouse

[WanderingWinder]

^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.

This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.

inb4 Storeroom is worse because Cellar joke.

Storeroom is worse because cellar and Cellar is worse because warehouse
∴ Storeroom is worse because warehouse

+1 for the therefore

[markusin]

^It seems like you need a lot of spare actions to get use from the sifting. I feel like in the late game in a big engine it's mostly just Secret Chamber with a buy.

This. I'd rather just have another Smithy instead. Maybe if you hit $3 and there are no other engine parts at $3 it can be worth it.

I find Storeroom is best for BM or Alt-VP games. Cellar does much better job in an engine for sifting.

The Storeroom also provides +buy, a key component for engines. Otherwise yeah, I guess I'd prefer Cellar for the non-terminal-ness

[DG]

Storeroom is a top quality action when it is useful. Absolutely excellent when you want to pick out key cards and specific price points, such as 3 coins+potion. How do you balance that against general utility though?

[Beyond Awesome]

On most boards Storeroom is a weak card. On the boards it is useful, it is usually just average. So, that does not make it a strong card. I mean, sure there are some boards where it shines, but those are super rare and just about any card shines on the right board.