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[LastFootnote]

Emptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal cards from your deck until the total cost in coins of the revealed cards is $5 or more. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

My never-ending search for a $5 card to fill a terminal draw slot in Enterprise has now brought me here. Although this card doesn't fit the one-shot theme, it does work with the set's "cares about Copper" sub-theme.

I would like it to cost $5, but I have no idea what the cost threshold for the effect should be in order to justify that cost. Right now it stops once the total cost of the revealed cards is $5, but that could easily be too low or too high. Any thoughts on this, or on whether the concept is good in general?

[RTT]

i somehow dont like that concept... sorry LF

in an engine you want to draw good cards and have probably trashed down a little to get a lot of 5$ cost cards. this can just draw one 5$ cost at a time. Also it is very swingy and can stop on a duchy allready. 
then again its very powerfull on only a few boards with highwaychains it draws your deck or were getting a lot of coppers is good.

I think the card would be unused to often.

How about a farming Smithy that has +3 cards and cant draw victory cards.

[LastFootnote]

i somehow dont like that concept... sorry LF

in an engine you want to draw good cards and have probably trashed down a little to get a lot of 5$ cost cards. this can just draw one 5$ cost at a time. Also it is very swingy and can stop on a duchy allready. 
then again its very powerfull on only a few boards with highwaychains it draws your deck or were getting a lot of coppers is good.

I think the card would be unused to often.

Could be you're right, although it is definitely good to have cards that make you want to build your deck in a different way than normal. So I don't really see "bad in the kind of deck you usually build" as a deal breaker.

As for stopping on a Duchy, the threshold could be increased. If it were $6 or $7, perhaps that would be more enticing.

How about a farming Smithy that has +3 cards and cant draw victory cards.

That's probably a lot better than Journeyman, but maybe not.

[GeoLib]

I like the concept!

It seems pretty weak with a $5 threshold. You can think of it as drawing ~5/(your average card cost). Say in a trashed down engine that's about $3, then this is only +2 cards +buy, which isn't great. For BM it's pretty good until you start greening. In a copper/curse/ruins-filled deck though it's nice.

OTOH, it's pretty good as an opener because it's almost draw-your deck. You could perhaps make an engine that relied exclusively on copper for economy. Great counter to Mountebank Crazy with cost reducers too. Hmmm...

I think it's worth playtesting, but it might actually be Terribroken :-(

[soulnet]

So I don't really see "bad in the kind of deck you usually build" to be a deal breaker.

I felt similarly to RTT, but did not post because I was not sure. However, the problem I see is that the kind of deck this seems to work best with is a boring one (full of Coppers and possibly Curses). However, I cannot tell how useful it is for trashless engines that do not need/want Gold. Maybe having draw+"sifting"+money (from Coppers) is good enough.

BTW, The farming Smitty that cannot draw Victory or Curses is way OP for $5, probably also good for $6.  It is not strictly better, but feels better than Journeyman to me.

[soulnet]

A way to make it more centered and less swingy is to do something like:

Reveal the top X cards of your deck. Discard cards from it until the total cost of the remaining cards is less than Y. Draw the remaining cards.

This makes it less terrible once you start greening, but more similar to Apothecary. But, being terminal and expensive, while also able to draw one or two good cards, may make it worthy.

[LastFootnote]

A way to make it more centered and less swingy is to do something like:

Reveal the top X cards of your deck. Discard cards from it until the total cost of the remaining cards is less than Y. Draw the remaining cards.

This makes it less terrible once you start greening, but more similar to Apothecary. But, being terminal and expensive, while also able to draw one or two good cards, may make it worthy.

This would indeed make it less swingy, and I like the idea in general. However, I think it's not ideal logistically. The wording is similar to my old Convocation wording (reveal X cards, discard revealed cards until Y, draw the rest). It seemed simple to me but confused all my playtesters. I'm also a bit worried that it would cause a lot of AP, since you potentially have many options when it comes to which combination of pricey cards to put into your hand. Still, it's an option worth considering.

[RTT]

BTW, The farming Smitty that cannot draw Victory or Curses is way OP for $5, probably also good for $6.  It is not strictly better, but feels better than Journeyman to me.

Well with journeyman i often also name copper especially in the early game when there are 7 coppers to skip so i see all my good cards (and maybe some estates)

[Fragasnap]

Emptor's concept is cool, but doesn't it have a lot of the same problems as Counting House? Powering it up is easy, but you still need to draw Emptor-- but this time with the right stuff on top of your deck in the right order.

How about a farming Smithy that has +3 cards and cant draw victory cards.

That's probably a lot better than Journeyman, but maybe not.

Though the utility is less than Journeyman's, I'd imagine it would be the best card draw in the entire game. Might you consider working that into a one-shot?

[mustang255]

I have actually been experimenting with a similar concept.

This is my current take on it:





I find that the +1 action is pretty important; as with Emptor as it is, one Emptor will stop on another, and end your chain (barring villages, which are hard to connect in a heavy copper deck). It doesn't feel right when you are building a deck around such a card to be punished for having too many of them.

As the card currently stands, Squire is probably its best friend; providing action splitting to chain them together, +buys to mass up copper, and with a low enough cost to get 3 of them with every Emptor. Mind you, Fool's Gold is pretty OP with it as well; as it can grab 3 FG, and gives +buy to get more of them. Finally, as RTT mentioned, Highway completely breaks this card. Once you get a little bit of cost reduction in play, it becomes ridiculously strong, potentially drawing most or all of your deck with a single Emptor.

[LastFootnote]

I guess I'm not too worried about this making you want a boring deck. No more than any other terminal draw card, anyhow. Even if you were to build a deck with 1 or 2 Emptors and enough Copper such that you draw a bunch and buy a Province, your Emptors now stop on that Province every time. I think you're much better off with maybe not trashing all your Copper, but still building a deck with a lot of Actions. You might reveal [Copper, Village, Copper, Smithy], for instance. That's a pretty good pull (assuming you have Actions left).

I think when I start playtesting, I'll begin with the threshold at $6. That way it encourages you to buy $5 cards over Gold and to remove your starting Estates. Like Sage, it gets a lot worse once you start greening. That might be fine, though.

[LastFootnote]

I find that the +1 action is pretty important; as with Emptor as it is, one Emptor will stop on another, and end your chain (barring villages, which are hard to connect in a heavy copper deck). It doesn't feel right when you are building a deck around such a card to be punished for having too many of them.

As the card currently stands, Squire is probably its best friend; providing action splitting to chain them together, +buys to mass up copper, and with a low enough cost to get 3 of them with every Emptor. Mind you, Fool's Gold is pretty OP with it as well; as it can grab 3 FG, and gives +buy to get more of them. Finally, as RTT mentioned, Highway completely breaks this card. Once you get a little bit of cost reduction in play, it becomes ridiculously strong, potentially drawing most or all of your deck with a single Emptor.

I am tentatively cool with the Highway combo. It's made up of a bunch of $5 cost cards, and while those become much easier to amass once you start buying Highways and Emptors, it's slow to start and potentially quite susceptible to most attacks. It doesn't sound worse than Scrying Pool to me, let's put it that way. Likewise with Fool's Gold. Lots of cards combo with Fool's Gold and combos are a cool part of Dominion.

Again, it would be nice if Emptor didn't just stop at one $5 card, so I think $6 is a better cutoff.

[soulnet]

You can always remove the +Buy. If you want to boring Copper-bloated deck, go find your +Buy somewhere else. I think without it, it will really be difficult to make it the center of a sloggy deck.

BTW, Hamlet+Emptor seems awesome.

About Emptor vs Journeyman: Journeyman is stronger because you can name Curse or a Victory card instead of Copper, so it combos better with trashing. And if there is trashing, is much better to have something that combo with it than to have something that does not.

[Jimmmmm]

This would be awesome with cost reduction.

[markusin]

Emptor seems like it can be very swingy. Imagine a two player mirror where both players go for Emptor and they both reach a point where they have the same deck composition and hand. However, one player might have a Province on top of the deck and the other might have it near the bottom. The player with the Province on top draws 1 card, but the other might draw 7 coppers, a $5, and then a Province.

Sure, the strength of all draw cards depends on what's on top of the deck, but the swinginess of this particular card greatly overshadows the swinginess of other draw cards. At least Scrying Pool can be loaded up on to improve reliability, but you can't stock up on this card for the same effect because it's terminal.

[markusin]

But hey, at least it combos with Scout.

[KingZog3]

Wouldn't this be crazy with cost reduction? Like play 5 highways, draw your deck. Or just 2 and pick up all the fools gold and Hamlet's in your deck.

[Awaclus]

Wouldn't this be crazy with cost reduction? Like play 5 highways, draw your deck. Or just 2 and pick up all the fools gold and Hamlet's in your deck.

A lot of things are crazy with 5 Highways.

[KingZog3]

Wouldn't this be crazy with cost reduction? Like play 5 highways, draw your deck. Or just 2 and pick up all the fools gold and Hamlet's in your deck.

A lot of things are crazy with 5 Highways.

I suppose. Still feels like it's too good with Highway. Even just 3 highways you'll pick up a lot of cards. All your $0-3 cards, plus some $4 and $5 cards if they're in the right order of course.

[Kirian]

I think I'd certainly... beware this card.

[LibraryAdventurer]

Emptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal cards from your deck until the total cost in coins of the revealed cards is $5 or more. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

I like this with the cutoff at $6. I think it'd be great except I think there should be something tweaked to prevent people going for a deck of 16 coppers an an emptor.
maybe this:

Emptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal up to 6 cards from your deck until the total cost in coins of the revealed cards is $6 or more. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

or possibly this:

Emptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal cards from your deck until the total cost in coins of the revealed cards is $6 or more. Cards costing $0 are considered to cost $0.5 for this purpose. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

EDIT: Either of these suggestions would also make the combo with highway not quite as overpowered. Personally, I think Highway is kinda broken anyway.

[Archetype]

I think you're good with costing it at $6, LFN. Forces the player to buy a Silver or something so that they can get at least $6 in there hand, which in turn makes the Emptor more likely to stop not draw the whole deck.

[popsofctown]

Emptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal cards from your deck until the total cost in coins of the revealed cards is $5 or more. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

My never-ending search for a $5 card to fill a terminal draw slot in Enterprise has now brought me here. Although this card doesn't fit the one-shot theme, it does work with the set's "cares about Copper" sub-theme.

I would like it to cost $5, but I have no idea what the cost threshold for the effect should be in order to justify that cost. Right now it stops once the total cost of the revealed cards is $5, but that could easily be too low or too high. Any thoughts on this, or on whether the concept is good in general?

Not the hero NV Bridge needs, the hero it wants!

[silverspawn]

Emptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal cards from your deck until the total cost in coins of the revealed cards is $5 or more. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

I like this with the cutoff at $6. I think it'd be great except I think there should be something tweaked to prevent people going for a deck of 16 coppers an an emptor.
maybe this:

Emptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal up to 6 cards from your deck until the total cost in coins of the revealed cards is $6 or more. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

or possibly this:

Emptor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal cards from your deck until the total cost in coins of the revealed cards is $6 or more. Cards costing $0 are considered to cost $0.5 for this purpose. Put the revealed cards into your hand.

EDIT: Either of these suggestions would also make the combo with highway not quite as overpowered. Personally, I think Highway is kinda broken anyway.

I don't think it should have a restriction. Look at KC, a valid restriction for that card would've been "You may choose an action card in your hand that is not another KC...". That would've been reasonable, KC would still be pretty good. But as we all know, KC-KC is, although slightly ridiculous, really fun. The same goes for this card, sometimes you'll draw 15 junk cards and a forge and get rid of everything, but that's fine. You don't have to nuke power combos.

And if you have a deck full of copper and an Emptor, it's smiliar to Counting House, which isn't broken either. Granted, you don't have to have the coppers in your discard pile for it to work, but it's also harder to set up, because you have to get rid of almost everything else. Even another Emptor puts a stop to it, since it's terminal, you can't play it. And once you start greening you quickly lose steam.

Highway is a different story, but again, it's fun to have ridiculous combos, as long as they don't appear too often. Apprentice/Market Square is an equally strong 2-card combo, and noone complains about it.

[markusin]

On the Highway/Emptor combo:

I don't even think it's all that broken. You'd have to be really lucky to line up 5 or so Highways and then your Emptor in a large deck. If your deck is small or can already draw most of itself, the Emptor doesn't do all that much for you that Scrying Pool doesn't do.

You can do better with Highway anyway. Highway + Market (Square) + good trasher can already lead to a megaturn. with Emptor, whether or not the Highway interaction, if pulled off, leads to a megaturn depends on the rest of your deck.

[NoMoreFun]

The ideal strategy with this card seems to be to buy lots of silvers and coppers, and nothing else. Other action cards (which cost a fair bit of money) really gum up the deck. Also duchies are probably a bad move. I can't really see this idea gelling well with any other kingdom card.

If you're looking for a terminal drawer, you could bring your old "surveyor" idea back.

Surveyor
Action - $6
+3 Cards
(You may?) discard a card from your hand. If it isn't a Victory card, gain a copy of it.

Discarding treasures has an opportunity cost, and cloning actions is all well and good but as a terminal drawer you need to know what you're doing, because it may end up just being more actions you can draw dead.

Why $6? Well being able to discard a Gold to gain another is quite good, so this card is in direct competition with Gold itself. It also means that when you buy it you're more likely to have some cards that it can work with. Plus it seems kind of strong - the problem with the original Surveyor is that it never seemed worth buying, but being a Smithy with a pretty good gaining option seems like a "power" card. It's worth trying at $5 as well.

If you're short a +buy this card, as a gainer, will probably make up for it, or you could even give it a +buy, but it will seem tacked on.