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Author Topic: Infinite throne room  (Read 26387 times)

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NoMoreFun

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Infinite throne room
« on: February 14, 2014, 08:06:25 am »
+1

Infinite Room
Action - $10
You may reveal an action card from your hand. Play it until remaining plays have no effect on the rest of your turn.

Now questions:

1) Given the following conditions below, are there any cards where you will be stuck playing the card forever

  • +Action=Unlimited actions
  • +Buy=Unlimited buys
  • +$=Unlimited Money
  • +VP=You have infinite VP, and are guaranteed to win (although you can share your victory with other players who have played infinite room)
  • Take a coin token=You have unlimited coin tokens (ie unlimited money for every remaining turn in the game)
  • If a deck searcher (or even a card like Thief) will never find any more cards of the type it's searching for, then the end result is all the remaining cards in the discard pile (since that's where all the cards ultimately end up, and the shuffle it ends up as won't be determined by your playing of that card
  • If nothing changes between decisions, then making additional decisions doesn't count (eg if you play it with chapel and have 2 cards left in your hand, neither of which you want to trash, that's not going to change no matter how many times you say no)

1b) If that isn't a comprehensive enough set of rules, then what need to be added so that it will work with every dominion card?

2) Without VP chip cards in the Kingdom, are there any cards that guarantee 1st place (shared or otherwise) when played with this card? There is at least one (I think).

3) Can you design a Kingdom where the card is worthwhile, but not broken?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 08:12:59 am »
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My answer to 2)

Swindler, if you play it infinitely many times, can empty 3 piles with its gains (unless your opponents deck doesn't have sufficient different costs in his deck for the kingdom, but Copper and Estate are enough. Then their decks are trashed. It's then up to you to beat what they have left in their hand for total VP. You have infinite money.

Possible problem for 1)
Masquerade gets you into an oscillation, but you can escape it as long as you choose the trashing option to trash your deck (and then everyone else's hand)
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soulnet

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 08:20:04 am »
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Infinite coin tokens cause problems with Possession. Can you spend your opponent's infinite coin tokens when possessing them? Can they spend them all before you possessed them?

In any case, with any card that gives money and buys, playing this is game over in almost every case. Spy is strange, you can basically see and then rearrange the entire deck/discard of each opponent to any configuration with probability 1.

Your limiting behavior for Thief is wrong. Playing Thief (or Pirate Ship) multiple times with an opponent with a treasureless deck with more than 2 cards in it will never lead to a limiting behavior, because it will continue to flip and reshuffle their deck. Each subsequent play leaves the game in a state different than what it was before the play.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 08:29:46 am »
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Your limiting behavior for Thief is wrong. Playing Thief (or Pirate Ship) multiple times with an opponent with a treasureless deck with more than 2 cards in it will never lead to a limiting behavior, because it will continue to flip and reshuffle their deck. Each subsequent play leaves the game in a state different than what it was before the play.

Unless they have 2 or fewer cards in their deck :P

I put Thief in the same category as Adventurer etc. as a made up rule. It would also apply to draw and discards like Warehouse and Margrave's reaction. Is there one that would be more fitting so the card is playable?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 08:35:05 am »
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Infinite coin tokens cause problems with Possession. Can you spend your opponent's infinite coin tokens when possessing them? Can they spend them all before you possessed them?

Your opponent has unlimited money for the rest of the game, but while you're possessing them it can be used to gain cards for you.

Also playing unlimited possessions means you can more than likely end the game (unless the remaining state of the kingdom and their deck means that you can never afford $2, which is extremely rare but possible), but you still might not win if they have too much of a lead. However if ambassador or masquerade is in the supply you can guarantee a win. You are in an oscillating game state but one that you can end by ending the game. It's not quite as good as playing it with Woodcutter.

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KingZog3

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 08:36:33 am »
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For 1) Conspirator, unactivated makes infinite money. Cellar will go forever as long as you have a card in your hand. Monument for infinite VP. Goons is infinite $$ and buys, but not infinite VP. Plaza as long as you have 1 treasure card in hand it can be infinite. Possession gives infinite extra turns. Herbalist... the list is really long.

For 2) Monument is infinite points. Goons I think, because you just buy out the supply at the end of your turn.

3) This is hard

Counterfeit, Fools Gold, Philosopher's Stone, Warehouse, Treasure map, Quarry, Loan, Bank, Stash, Infinite Throne room. I would say it's useful to guarantee Treasure map collision with Warehouse.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 08:38:26 am by KingZog3 »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 08:43:56 am »
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Quote
For 2) Monument is infinite points. Goons I think, because you just buy out the supply at the end of your turn.

I specified without VP chip cards, but

Monument and Bishop guarantee a win. Goons almost certainly does but not necessarily (if your opponent has all of the Duchies, Estates and an Alt VP card, and all but one of every other card in the supply including Colony/Platinum, then even buying the rest of the supply won't help you, since Goons' VP chip gaining is a "while in play" effect
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 08:47:25 am »
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For 1) Conspirator, unactivated makes infinite money. Cellar will go forever as long as you have a card in your hand. Monument for infinite VP. Goons is infinite $$ and buys, but not infinite VP. Plaza as long as you have 1 treasure card in hand it can be infinite. Possession gives infinite extra turns. Herbalist... the list is really long.


Infinite money, infinite VP, infinite +buys and infinite coin tokens have been dealt with
With Cellar, you can make a decision that doesn't change the game state, which means it's fine under the Chapel rule. However Warehouse is problematic and therefore dealt with under the rule that covers Thief.
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KingZog3

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 09:24:39 am »
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For 1) Conspirator, unactivated makes infinite money. Cellar will go forever as long as you have a card in your hand. Monument for infinite VP. Goons is infinite $$ and buys, but not infinite VP. Plaza as long as you have 1 treasure card in hand it can be infinite. Possession gives infinite extra turns. Herbalist... the list is really long.


Infinite money, infinite VP, infinite +buys and infinite coin tokens have been dealt with
With Cellar, you can make a decision that doesn't change the game state, which means it's fine under the Chapel rule. However Warehouse is problematic and therefore dealt with under the rule that covers Thief.

What about Mystic? It's infinite, but only if I don't name the card that I know is on top of my deck. So it can be, but only if you want it to be.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2014, 09:27:26 am »
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For (2), couldn't you continually Masquerade to trash everything but one Victory card?  This may require you tracking their Victory cards.  Of course, it doesn't empty the supply, so you may not be able to end the game that turn.  On the other hand, all they could do the next turn is buy a Copper, so maybe you can eventually manage them to a point where they would be emptying the last supply pile by buying something.

Edit: Well, actually, that only gets rid of his current hand.  So you need something else to establish a pin, since you're not guaranteed his next draw can't end the game on a win...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 09:32:27 am by Witherweaver »
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Awaclus

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2014, 09:53:18 am »
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Do the last two points deal with Sir Michael when your opponent has Fortresses in his deck? There could be a situation in which your opponent would actually want to trash a card only if his deck is in a specific order.

Also, Courtyard and putting a different card on top each time is pointless, but if you do that, then you'll end up playing it forever. Something changes between the decisions!
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Davio

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2014, 10:14:54 am »
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I don't really understand the question.

If you play a simple Village with this card, you can play it for an infinite amount of actions.
And if you're planning to play a Diadem, well, the amount of actions does matter (even if you're just going to buy 1 card).

But let's say you play this-Worker Village-Diadem then you can easily buy out the supply.

Simply this-Bridge will do it as well or any other card that just gives buys and some money, like Market, Woodcutter, Grand Market, Squire, Candlestick Maker, Merchant Guild and some others.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2014, 10:22:36 am »
+1

I don't really understand the question.

If you play a simple Village with this card, you can play it for an infinite amount of actions.
And if you're planning to play a Diadem, well, the amount of actions does matter (even if you're just going to buy 1 card).

But let's say you play this-Worker Village-Diadem then you can easily buy out the supply.

Simply this-Bridge will do it as well or any other card that just gives buys and some money, like Market, Woodcutter, Grand Market, Squire, Candlestick Maker, Merchant Guild and some others.

But the opponent could have more than half the available VP cards before this point.  So you have to have a way to trash their deck to guarantee a win in general.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2014, 11:36:47 am »
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What about Mystic? It's infinite, but only if I don't name the card that I know is on top of my deck. So it can be, but only if you want it to be.

You can either draw your whole deck or deliberately misname when you've had enough of drawing; either way it will stop helping.

Wishing Well on the other hand will draw your whole deck whether you want it to or not.



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Witherweaver

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2014, 11:59:30 am »
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My answer to 2)

Swindler, if you play it infinitely many times, can empty 3 piles with its gains (unless your opponents deck doesn't have sufficient different costs in his deck for the kingdom, but Copper and Estate are enough. Then their decks are trashed. It's then up to you to beat what they have left in their hand for total VP. You have infinite money.


But what if they have 2 Provinces in their hand, and there is 1 Province left on the board, 0 Duchies, 0 Estates (no third pile empty and no alternate VP) when you start this?  Or even 2 Provinces left; you can only buy one with Swindler.  And you have no VP cards in your deck (because of various trashing attacks up to this point, say).

I think you need to trash their hand and deck together, and end the game on the same turn.
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Holger

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2014, 12:45:37 pm »
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Also, Courtyard and putting a different card on top each time is pointless, but if you do that, then you'll end up playing it forever. Something changes between the decisions!

Nothing changes after Courtyard has drawn your entire deck for the first time. I think this is accounted for by the "Chapel rule".
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Awaclus

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2014, 02:13:32 pm »
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Also, Courtyard and putting a different card on top each time is pointless, but if you do that, then you'll end up playing it forever. Something changes between the decisions!

Nothing changes after Courtyard has drawn your entire deck for the first time. I think this is accounted for by the "Chapel rule".
No, something changes. Say, you've drawn your entire deck for the first time and you topdeck a Smithy. Then you draw the Smithy and topdeck a Copper.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2014, 02:16:41 pm »
+2

Also, Courtyard and putting a different card on top each time is pointless, but if you do that, then you'll end up playing it forever. Something changes between the decisions!

Nothing changes after Courtyard has drawn your entire deck for the first time. I think this is accounted for by the "Chapel rule".
No, something changes. Say, you've drawn your entire deck for the first time and you topdeck a Smithy. Then you draw the Smithy and topdeck a Copper.

But ultimately you only have to make one choice: which card you want to leave on top of your deck, which you can consider to resolve the infinite Courtyard play.
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Holger

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2014, 04:09:00 pm »
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2) Without VP chip cards in the Kingdom, are there any cards that guarantee 1st place (shared or otherwise) when played with this card? There is at least one (I think).

I don't think so, if you make no other assumptions on the kingdom or the game state. You'd need a trashing attack that can reliably trash almost all the opponents' green cards, and (if any remain) gain you enough points to equalize. But Swindler can't trash hand cards, Masq. can only trash hand cards, Saboteur can't trash Estates and can't gain you a VP card, Knights and Rogue can't trash Provinces without cost reducers. Rogue can always gain all Duchies and one Province, but that's not enough against an opponent having all the remaining Provinces (e.g. in 2p, you only get 30 points, out of 80 available points).

Actually, if your opponent (in 2p) has more than half the available VPs +10VP (to account for potential incoming curses) safe on his Island mat, he is unbeatable by any means, even infinite extra turns for you.
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Davio

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2014, 04:37:07 pm »
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Yeah, the only way to win is if your opponent does not yet have the mathematical win (on his Island mat).
But if your opponent doesn't, it's trivial, you can just buy the remaining points.
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Holger

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 05:23:12 pm »
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Yeah, the only way to win is if your opponent does not yet have the mathematical win (on his Island mat).
But if your opponent doesn't, it's trivial, you can just buy the remaining points.

It's not quite trivial: the opponent may have more than half the VPs in his deck where the VP cards could still be trashed. In this case, you still have a chance to win, but can't guarantee a win by playing "Infinite Throne Room-X".

But even when you ignore the trivial case of an already decided game, and ban Island (and Native Village, Haven...), no card (other than Monument and Bishop) fulfills the "guaranteed win" condition, by my above post. (Unless I missed something...)
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achmed_sender

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2014, 03:45:30 am »
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I would play ITR-ITR-Burocrat-Rogue after 2 Highways or a Princess
Yeah, thats two cards throned, but the otherway I can't see any way.

Rogue trashes and gains the Duchies and Provinces of the opponents' deck, even all the alt VPs which costs $5 or more (problem aganist a Garden player, then you just don't play the cost reducer)
Burocrat is for removing VP cards from the opponents hands, not even Torturer can guarantee that.
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Asper

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2014, 07:42:28 am »
+1

3) Any combination of the following that has at least one of the "limited use" cards in it.

Limited use
Action cards that trash cards from your hand to work: Moneylender, Remodel, Expand, Remake, Treasure Map, Develop, Stonemason, Transmute, Trader, Taxman, Mine, Trading Post and Procession
Action cards that remove cards from you hand other ways: Island


No use
Actions that ITR has no effect on: Secret Chamber, Tactician, Outpost, Library, Watchtower, Chapel, Counting House
Non-Actions: All


Depends
Multipliers limited by your hand: Throne Room, King's Court
(Allow playing more than one different card in a turn, which is only relevant if you play with Shelters OR there is a card that does not require you to lower your handsize to do something. Those cards include "no use cards" that still don't get additional benefit from being played by ITR)


Honorable mention:
Rats (which gives actions and cards but doesn't make the card "broken" for obvious reasons)

Edit: Forgot that Procession is a tfb itself and should be in the "limited use" category rather than "no use". Probably the effect isn't really useful most of the time, but nonetheless.
Edit:Removed Forge, Salvager and Altar due to Holger's remark.
Edit: Made a category for TR and KC that can add flexibility (in some cases)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 05:15:24 pm by Asper »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2014, 10:04:01 am »
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Infinite money may not necessarily be broken as long as there aren't easy +buys, and vice versa.

Infinite actions may not be a big deal, but most non terminals do something else that's broken if done infinitely.
Scout is an exception. Cellar is too. Shanty town may be as if you can set it up to draw your deck then you probably deserve to.

Rats (which gives actions and cards but doesn't make the card "broken" for obvious reasons)

Lookout will destroy your deck, but not your hand. Apprentice may very well destroy everything, but it may not. Junk Dealer will destroy everything, but you will have infinite money to show for it (hopefully some +buys too). Upgrade will destroy your deck and wreak havoc on the supply.

Spice Merchant is one of the more interesting cards, and while it will definitely have an "infinite" vibe, it probably isn't broken or even overpowered with this.

Advisor and Envoy are interesting because while they will draw your whole deck, the player to your left can still veto one card.
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florrat

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Re: Infinite throne room
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2014, 11:23:15 am »
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Most remodelers do not fall in the "limited use" category, because of Fortress   .

Also Procession does not fall in the "limited use" category, you can easily make infinite chains with Graverobber/Rogue, and do something useful. For example you can repeat X-X-X-Rogue-Rogue-Rogue-Rogue-Hunting Grounds (or 19*X-10*Rogue-10*Graverobber-Scrying Pool).
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