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Author Topic: How similar is too similar?  (Read 2795 times)

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NoMoreFun

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How similar is too similar?
« on: January 30, 2014, 07:16:49 am »
0

Say the following card came out (note: this thread isn't about this card specifically, just an example)

Junk Dealerette
Action - $5
Choose 3 (you may not choose the same option twice):
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
Trash a card from your hand.

It plays differently to junk dealer, but it's so similar.

Would you resent its existence?

The only real cards that I thought were too similar to real cards were fixed versions of other cards (Thief/NB, Chancellor/Scavenger, WW/Mystic), which if anything makes me annoyed the original went to print over good out takes.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 07:47:17 am by NoMoreFun »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 07:25:59 am »
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Presumably you can choose the same option twice? In that case it's strictly better than Lab so would have to cost at least $6. In terms of the card I think it's quite different to Junk Dealer and would have no problem with it at a balanced price.

In terms of similar cards, we already have cards that are similar to one another (different Villages, Moneylender/Spice Merchant, Woodcutter/Nomad Camp, Thief/Noble Brigand etc). I wouldn't in principal have a problem with new cards that are similar to old cards, although if there was a new expansion or promos I'd probably expect something more interesting than that.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 08:01:01 am »
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Presumably you can choose the same option twice? In that case it's strictly better than Lab so would have to cost at least $6. In terms of the card I think it's quite different to Junk Dealer and would have no problem with it at a balanced price.

Wasn't the intention. I've edited the OP. Maybe "all but one" is better wording.

I see moneylender and spice merchant as very different but maybe that's because I pick the lab almost every time. There are enough woodcutter variants that make it pretty much need to exist, but then again no vanilla "peddler" (peddler itself has the weird cost) exists. I don't have that issue with most other "base cards with a bonus" though unless that base card is bad and not that simple.
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GendoIkari

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2014, 11:39:27 am »
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I like this card a lot. It's like at first glance, I say "wait, this is strictly worse than Junk Dealer, because Junk Dealer gives you all 4". And then I was like "oh, it's strictly better than Junk Dealer because the trashing is optional." But of course it's not because you can't do all 4. It's good for a card to make you think things like that.

It might be too weak though. Early on, you would never want this over Junk Dealer, because you always want all 4 options. It might be to long until you start wanting this over Junk Dealer. Ok, obviously you aren't usually going to be actually choosing between the 2. I wonder if it did cost $6 and let you choose the same thing more than once? Probably too powerful then...
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Awaclus

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2014, 12:09:56 pm »
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I wonder if it did cost $6 and let you choose the same thing more than once? Probably too powerful then...
I don't think it would be too powerful at $6.
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manthos88

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2014, 05:39:12 pm »
+2

Quote
The only real cards that I thought were too similar to real cards were fixed versions of other cards (Thief/NB, Chancellor/Scavenger, WW/Mystic), which if anything makes me annoyed the original went to print over good out takes.

Why do you people keep saying these cards are "fixes"?? They certainly aren't!!

Thief can trash any treasure, while Noble Brigand can only trash Silvers and Golds.

Wishing Well is a potential Lab, while Mystic is a potential Conspirator.

And even though Scavenger is better than Chancellor about 90% of the times, it may force you to put a bad card on top of Deck if you don't want to discard your Deck.
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Asper

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2014, 06:14:24 pm »
+2

Quote
The only real cards that I thought were too similar to real cards were fixed versions of other cards (Thief/NB, Chancellor/Scavenger, WW/Mystic), which if anything makes me annoyed the original went to print over good out takes.

Why do you people keep saying these cards are "fixes"?? They certainly aren't!!

Thief can trash any treasure, while Noble Brigand can only trash Silvers and Golds.

Wishing Well is a potential Lab, while Mystic is a potential Conspirator.

And even though Scavenger is better than Chancellor about 90% of the times, it may force you to put a bad card on top of Deck if you don't want to discard your Deck.

Yes, that's true. Chancellor might be a better opening option than scavanger on some boards with relevant 4$ cards (possibly Potion to get Familiars early, though i don't know if Scavanger's topdecking doesn't make up for the lost turns). And even Thief is not as bad at multiplayer games as it is often considered here.

But Rebuild made me see, that while we might want to see Dominion as a perfectly balanced game where every card has a reason to be, there are just cards which are worse than others. And it's only natural, because it's impossible for them all to be the same. Thief is worse than Noble Brigand. It is not strictly worse, but no card is. In some situations even a 5$ Wishing Well would be better than Laboratory (no unintentional reshuffle trigger), but that doesn't say much. It's still worse.

Consider a world where Donald made Noble Brigand first. Would you consider Thief worthwile after that? No +1$, no on-gain attack, trashing Coppers for opponents... Uh, what...? And wouldn't you have wondered why Donald gave us this new "Woodcutter" when we allready have Nomad Camp? What could be so good about the lower price it's worth a card slot? And as we allready have Scavanger, why in the world would we need a weaker version?

You see if you think about it that way, it's pretty obvious that they are worse cards. The thing is just that they allready exist, and having ideas to "fix" them doesn't change that. So in a way you are right, they cannot be fixed. At least they won't. Anyhow, i still play Chancellor from time to time, and sometimes it's a good thing i do. I just like the card, it might be my favourite card even. Game-warping power cards are much worse.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 06:15:53 pm by Asper »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2014, 10:50:08 pm »
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Why do you people keep saying these cards are "fixes"?? They certainly aren't!!

Thief can trash any treasure, while Noble Brigand can only trash Silvers and Golds.

Wishing Well is a potential Lab, while Mystic is a potential Conspirator.

And even though Scavenger is better than Chancellor about 90% of the times, it may force you to put a bad card on top of Deck if you don't want to discard your Deck.

Thief can trash any treasure, including Copper, which makes it a horrible card that you almost never want to buy. Noble Brigand takes the interesting aspects of the card and makes the mechanic actually work for you in a card that is less of a waste of space when it's not doing that rare mechanic. I'm sure if Thief didn't exist or the wording wasn't easily misunderstood Noble Brigand would be able to steal other non-copper Treasures too.

I've said a lot in other threads about my distaste for Wishing Well, suffice to say that Mystic does the same thing with the mechanic but better and far less frustratingly.

Chancellor is actually I card I like, but it's mechanic doesn't really do anything much. There are games where managing reshuffles matters quite a lot, but that's high level strategy that can't really be appreciated by a lot of players, and even then Chancellor isn't very good at it. Scavenger has a very good reason for it's Chancellor effect, and if Scavenger had come out first Chancellor would look like a waste of a card. It's not even a vanilla or simple card.

EDIT/PS:
I'm glad Donald X was honest about Rebuild because I think it made people exalt official cards a little less, which meant more love for fan cards and the idea that people other than Donald X could make a good card, and more support for making new expansions to Dominion.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 10:52:52 pm by NoMoreFun »
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GendoIkari

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2014, 11:44:43 pm »
+2

In some situations even a 5$ Wishing Well would be better than Laboratory (no unintentional reshuffle trigger), but that doesn't say much. It's still worse.

Actually no, even if you don't draw the card, you have to reveal it, which would cause a shuffle just the same as Lab would. But there are other edge cases, of course.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How similar is too similar?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2014, 12:06:25 am »
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Consider a world where Donald made Noble Brigand first. Would you consider Thief worthwile after that? No +1$, no on-gain attack, trashing Coppers for opponents... Uh, what...? And wouldn't you have wondered why Donald gave us this new "Woodcutter" when we allready have Nomad Camp? What could be so good about the lower price it's worth a card slot? And as we allready have Scavanger, why in the world would we need a weaker version?

Those examples are all probably right, but I'd probably say the same thing about vanilla Workshop and Village, even though they're cards that most definitely deserve to exist.
On the other hand, Smithy and Militia would probably have been interesting for their prices, as I think the consensus would have been that those effects were too good for $4, and nobody has a problem with very simple cards introduced later in the picture like Worker's Village and Oasis and Junk Dealer.
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