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[WNxTyr4el]

So I'm new here for those of you who haven't posted to my thread yet .  I thought it'd be a good idea to post some of my wins/losses and see what I could have done better to win or done better to be more efficient at winning. 

Fortunately my first game I'm going to post is a win.  I just did this one against the AI and was wondering if there's anything I could have or should have done differently.  Just let me know!  Thanks!

(If anyone knows how to do an EXPAND box, that would help too).

------------ Game Setup ------------
Supply cards: Cellar, Moat, Village, Bridge, Smithy, Throne Room, Laboratory, Saboteur, Trading Post, Adventurer, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse
Rating system: adventure
WNxTyr4el - starting cards: Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Silver, Silver, Estate, Estate, Estate
Squire Sedgewick - starting cards: Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Estate, Estate
WNxTyr4el - shuffles deck
Squire Sedgewick - shuffles deck
WNxTyr4el - draws Silver, Estate, Copper, Estate, Copper
Squire Sedgewick - draws Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 1 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 3 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Silver
Squire Sedgewick - gains Silver
Squire Sedgewick - draws Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate, Copper
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 1 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Silver
WNxTyr4el - gains Silver
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Silver, Copper, Estate, Copper
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 2 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 4 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Silver
Squire Sedgewick - gains Silver
Squire Sedgewick - shuffles deck
Squire Sedgewick - draws Silver, Copper, Estate, Estate, Copper
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 2 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 3 Copper, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Silver
WNxTyr4el - gains Silver
WNxTyr4el - shuffles deck
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Copper, Silver, Copper, Copper
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 3 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
Squire Sedgewick - buys Silver
Squire Sedgewick - gains Silver
Squire Sedgewick - draws Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 3 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 4 Copper, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Gold
WNxTyr4el - gains Gold
WNxTyr4el - draws Estate, Silver, Copper, Silver, Silver
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 4 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 4 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Silver
Squire Sedgewick - gains Silver
Squire Sedgewick - draws Silver, Copper
Squire Sedgewick - shuffles deck
Squire Sedgewick - draws Estate, Copper, Silver
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 4 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 3 Silver, 1 Copper
WNxTyr4el - buys Gold
WNxTyr4el - gains Gold
WNxTyr4el - draws Estate, Estate
WNxTyr4el - shuffles deck
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Silver, Gold
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 5 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 2 Silver, 2 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Gold
Squire Sedgewick - gains Gold
Squire Sedgewick - draws Copper, Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 5 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 1 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Gold
WNxTyr4el - buys Laboratory
WNxTyr4el - gains Laboratory
WNxTyr4el - draws Silver, Estate, Silver, Silver, Copper
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 6 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 4 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Silver
Squire Sedgewick - gains Silver
Squire Sedgewick - draws Copper, Silver, Silver, Estate
Squire Sedgewick - shuffles deck
Squire Sedgewick - draws Silver
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 6 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 3 Silver, 1 Copper
WNxTyr4el - buys Smithy
WNxTyr4el - gains Smithy
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Gold, Copper, Copper
WNxTyr4el - shuffles deck
WNxTyr4el - draws Silver
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 7 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 3 Silver, 1 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Gold
Squire Sedgewick - gains Gold
Squire Sedgewick - draws Silver, Silver, Copper, Estate, Gold
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 7 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 3 Copper, 1 Gold, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Province
WNxTyr4el - gains Province
WNxTyr4el - draws Estate, Gold, Silver, Silver, Silver
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 8 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 2 Silver, 1 Copper, 1 Gold
Squire Sedgewick - buys Province
Squire Sedgewick - gains Province
Squire Sedgewick - draws Copper, Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 8 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 3 Silver, 1 Gold
WNxTyr4el - buys Province
WNxTyr4el - gains Province
WNxTyr4el - draws Smithy, Estate, Laboratory, Copper, Estate
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 9 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 4 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Silver
Squire Sedgewick - gains Silver
Squire Sedgewick - draws Copper
Squire Sedgewick - shuffles deck
Squire Sedgewick - draws Copper, Silver, Copper, Silver
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 9 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays Laboratory
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper
WNxTyr4el - shuffles deck
WNxTyr4el - draws Province
WNxTyr4el - plays Smithy
WNxTyr4el - draws Province, Copper, Silver
WNxTyr4el - plays 3 Copper, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Laboratory
WNxTyr4el - gains Laboratory
WNxTyr4el - draws Gold, Estate, Gold, Copper, Silver
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 10 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 3 Copper, 2 Silver
Squire Sedgewick - buys Adventurer
Squire Sedgewick - gains Adventurer
Squire Sedgewick - draws Estate, Gold, Silver, Copper, Silver
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 10 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 2 Gold, 1 Copper, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Province
WNxTyr4el - gains Province
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Silver, Silver
WNxTyr4el - shuffles deck
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Province
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 11 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 2 Silver, 1 Gold, 1 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Province
Squire Sedgewick - gains Province
Squire Sedgewick - draws Copper, Estate, Silver, Copper, Silver
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 11 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 2 Copper, 2 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Duchy
WNxTyr4el - gains Duchy
WNxTyr4el - draws Silver, Silver, Copper, Smithy, Gold
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 12 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 2 Copper, 2 Silver
Squire Sedgewick - buys Duchy
Squire Sedgewick - gains Duchy
Squire Sedgewick - draws Province, Estate, Copper, Gold
Squire Sedgewick - shuffles deck
Squire Sedgewick - draws Silver
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 12 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays Smithy
WNxTyr4el - draws Province, Copper, Estate
WNxTyr4el - plays 2 Silver, 2 Copper, 1 Gold
WNxTyr4el - buys Province
WNxTyr4el - gains Province
WNxTyr4el - draws Estate, Estate, Province, Gold, Copper
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 13 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 1 Copper, 1 Gold, 1 Silver
Squire Sedgewick - buys Duchy
Squire Sedgewick - gains Duchy
Squire Sedgewick - draws Copper, Copper, Province, Estate, Copper
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 13 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 1 Gold, 1 Copper
WNxTyr4el - buys Smithy
WNxTyr4el - gains Smithy
WNxTyr4el - draws Laboratory, Laboratory
WNxTyr4el - shuffles deck
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Estate, Gold
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 14 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 3 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Silver
Squire Sedgewick - gains Silver
Squire Sedgewick - draws Adventurer, Silver, Copper, Duchy, Copper
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 14 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays Laboratory
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Silver
WNxTyr4el - plays Laboratory
WNxTyr4el - draws Estate, Silver
WNxTyr4el - plays 2 Copper, 2 Silver, 1 Gold
WNxTyr4el - buys Province
WNxTyr4el - gains Province
WNxTyr4el - draws Estate, Province, Smithy, Silver, Silver
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 15 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays Adventurer
Squire Sedgewick - reveals Silver, Gold
Squire Sedgewick - places cards in hand:  Silver, Gold
Squire Sedgewick - plays 2 Silver, 2 Copper, 1 Gold
Squire Sedgewick - buys Duchy
Squire Sedgewick - gains Duchy
Squire Sedgewick - draws Estate, Silver, Silver, Copper, Silver
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 15 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays Smithy
WNxTyr4el - draws Province, Duchy, Province
WNxTyr4el - plays 2 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Throne Room
WNxTyr4el - gains Throne Room
WNxTyr4el - draws Gold, Copper, Copper, Province, Smithy
 
---------- Squire Sedgewick: turn 16 ----------
Squire Sedgewick - plays 3 Silver, 1 Copper
Squire Sedgewick - buys Duchy
Squire Sedgewick - gains Duchy
Squire Sedgewick - shuffles deck
Squire Sedgewick - draws Silver, Estate, Duchy, Duchy, Copper
 
---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 16 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays Smithy
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper
WNxTyr4el - shuffles deck
WNxTyr4el - draws Silver, Gold
WNxTyr4el - plays 3 Copper, 2 Gold, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Province
WNxTyr4el - gains Province
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Province, Throne Room, Province, Province
 
------------ Game Over ------------
WNxTyr4el - cards: 2 Smithy, 2 Laboratory, 1 Throne Room, 5 Copper, 4 Silver, 2 Gold, 6 Province, 3 Estate, 1 Duchy
WNxTyr4el - total victory points: 42
WNxTyr4el - turns: 16
 
Squire Sedgewick - cards: 1 Adventurer, 7 Silver, 7 Copper, 2 Gold, 4 Duchy, 3 Estate, 2 Province
Squire Sedgewick - total victory points: 27
Squire Sedgewick - turns: 16
 
1st place: WNxTyr4el
2nd place: Squire Sedgewick

[2.71828.....]

---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 1 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Silver
WNxTyr4el - gains Silver
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Silver, Copper, Estate, Copper

The first way to improve your game: DONT USE ZAPS!

I see here that you start with two silvers+5 coppers+3 estates.  Of course you will win this game.  Now, if you are just trying to get through adventures, zaps are totally acceptable.  However, if you are trying to improve your play, it is best to use what you should have: 7 coppers 3 estates.  (if you have to zap curses into estates that is fine).  I understand that it just feels impossible to beat the adventure without zaps, especially when the computer gets an advantage with the starting hand.  What I would say to that is the adventures are adventures.  Dominion is Dominion.  If you want to improve your game the best way is probably not the adventures, but to play real players.  Go online and play multiplayer.  If you want to beat adventures, do that, use your zaps, and win.  But it will not improve your dominion skills because you can do impossible things.  (like buy gold t3 and t4)

Actual game commentary:  you want an engine with this board.  What that means is you want bridge as early as possible.  You want laboratory for draw.  You should be careful about buying too many bridges and smithies because they are both terminals.  If you play a bridge and have only 5 coin or something, a good purchase would be smithy/village over gold.  You also probably want trading post for the trashing.  Cards you can ignore: cellar, moat, saboteur, adventurer.  Cards to focus on: Lab, throne room, bridge. 

[WNxTyr4el]

---------- WNxTyr4el: turn 1 ----------
WNxTyr4el - plays 2 Copper, 1 Silver
WNxTyr4el - buys Silver
WNxTyr4el - gains Silver
WNxTyr4el - draws Copper, Silver, Copper, Estate, Copper

The first way to improve your game: DONT USE ZAPS!

I see here that you start with two silvers+5 coppers+3 estates.  Of course you will win this game.  Now, if you are just trying to get through adventures, zaps are totally acceptable.  However, if you are trying to improve your play, it is best to use what you should have: 7 coppers 3 estates.  (if you have to zap curses into estates that is fine).  I understand that it just feels impossible to beat the adventure without zaps, especially when the computer gets an advantage with the starting hand.  What I would say to that is the adventures are adventures.  Dominion is Dominion.  If you want to improve your game the best way is probably not the adventures, but to play real players.  Go online and play multiplayer.  If you want to beat adventures, do that, use your zaps, and win.  But it will not improve your dominion skills because you can do impossible things.  (like buy gold t3 and t4)

Actual game commentary:  you want an engine with this board.  What that means is you want bridge as early as possible.  You want laboratory for draw.  You should be careful about buying too many bridges and smithies because they are both terminals.  If you play a bridge and have only 5 coin or something, a good purchase would be smithy/village over gold.  You also probably want trading post for the trashing.  Cards you can ignore: cellar, moat, saboteur, adventurer.  Cards to focus on: Lab, throne room, bridge.

Yeah that's a good point.  This was just a quick game when I got into work this morning .  I'll post up a live game against someone probably sometime today or tonight.  Would bots even be an acceptable way of improving?  Or is that just too similar to the adventures?  My schedule doesn't allow me much play time so bots and the adventures are best for now.  But I definitely see your point. 

I didn't even notice the bridges in this.  I just wanted to end it as quick as possible but are you saying that when bridge is up, to take that with a "village" or Throne Room?

[Destierro]

One of the best ways to improve your game is to play against other people. The Goko AI is subpar at best, and on the more complex boards will often lose simply because some cards are nigh-impossible to simulate. Playing against people helps in many different ways. It raises the bar, so you're no longer trying to beat a rote AI that will do the same thing every game, but you have to compete with a much better opponent. It forces you to challenge yourself, setting the bar much higher than you would get with the computer.

On your gameplay, I would suggest getting a Trading Post early on, and going for some sort of Throne Room / Bridge engine with Laboratory and Village/Smithy for draw. Possibly throw a Saboteur in the mix. On turn 15 you bought a Throne Room, an Estate would have been better as the game was almost over. If you're going for a Smithy BM strategy, then Laboratory is better suited as a Silver.

I'm not sure if there is an expand option, but you can forward a link from Goko, where it saves all the logs. (http://i.imgur.com/dlwjiAZ.png)

Welcome to Dominion! I hope you enjoy the game as much as we all do!

[2.71828.....]

Would bots even be an acceptable way of improving? 

I would say bots are an acceptable way of improving certain aspects of your game.  For example, if there is a certain combo you want to practice, you might play that combo a bunch against a bot.  In the long run, as Destierro mentions, bots are not an adequate replacement for people.  Bots may be better than people at first though, because they have one thing going for them:  They pick a strategy and stick with it (they are programmed to).  Young players often "strategy jump" and just buy cards that look cool without a specific end in mind.  In that case, bots might provide better competition.

[WNxTyr4el]

Would bots even be an acceptable way of improving? 

I would say bots are an acceptable way of improving certain aspects of your game.  For example, if there is a certain combo you want to practice, you might play that combo a bunch against a bot.  In the long run, as Destierro mentions, bots are not an adequate replacement for people.  Bots may be better than people at first though, because they have one thing going for them:  They pick a strategy and stick with it (they are programmed to).  Young players often "strategy jump" and just buy cards that look cool without a specific end in mind.  In that case, bots might provide better competition.

Yeah I definitely think I'm at least better than a "young player."  I've done enough research to know what some certain good cards are, what to play when and what helps certain types of strategies.  So I do sort of know what is good and what is not.  It's really the implementation of that and learning ALL the different possibilities with what I could hope to learn.  I'm definitely going to play against a real player though.  I at least have a friend who is also new I can test out new strategies on lol.  He isn't playing as much as I am so maybe I can teach him a thing or two

One of the best ways to improve your game is to play against other people. The Goko AI is subpar at best, and on the more complex boards will often lose simply because some cards are nigh-impossible to simulate. Playing against people helps in many different ways. It raises the bar, so you're no longer trying to beat a rote AI that will do the same thing every game, but you have to compete with a much better opponent. It forces you to challenge yourself, setting the bar much higher than you would get with the computer.

On your gameplay, I would suggest getting a Trading Post early on, and going for some sort of Throne Room / Bridge engine with Laboratory and Village/Smithy for draw. Possibly throw a Saboteur in the mix. On turn 15 you bought a Throne Room, an Estate would have been better as the game was almost over. If you're going for a Smithy BM strategy, then Laboratory is better suited as a Silver.

I'm not sure if there is an expand option, but you can forward a link from Goko, where it saves all the logs. (http://i.imgur.com/dlwjiAZ.png)

Welcome to Dominion! I hope you enjoy the game as much as we all do!

Oh okay, so I can forward the link, awesome!  I bought the Throne Room because even though I knew the game was ending soon I was going to try to end it sooner lol.  Though, I guess it was a bad pick and could have just picked an Estate like you recommended lol.

What does BM stand for though?  I keep reading it in articles.  Also, is Saboteur a good card?  I was reading on the main website that it's kind of, mostly situational but mostly a bad attack card if not the worst.  I'm taking it with a grain of salt and will learn to use it my own way but can't help but not ignore that bit of info

[Destierro]

The best part of this website is its guides and articles! Read these, the top ones will be most pertinent. http://dominionstrategy.com/category/general-strategy/articles/ They outline general strategies, and common dominion lingo. BM is short for Big Money, a strategy in which the player buys very few actions, generally one or two, and only treasure and victory cards. It is usually a strategy that works on very "weak" boards, or where there are lots of attacks that ruin decks.

If you ever are wondering about a particular card, chances are someone has already written a comprehensive guide on it.

[WNxTyr4el]

The best part of this website is its guides and articles! Read these, the top ones will be most pertinent. http://dominionstrategy.com/category/general-strategy/articles/ They outline general strategies, and common dominion lingo. BM is short for Big Money, a strategy in which the player buys very few actions, generally one or two, and only treasure and victory cards. It is usually a strategy that works on very "weak" boards, or where there are lots of attacks that ruin decks.

If you ever are wondering about a particular card, chances are someone has already written a comprehensive guide on it.

I've already read the card lists and the links for base and Intrigue along with each available linked card lol.  Really good info on the individual card articles.

[Destierro]

Also, if you learn better from watching someone else, there are several channels on youtube dedicated to dominion. To name a few:

https://www.youtube.com/user/WanderingWinder
https://www.youtube.com/user/AdamHorton01
https://www.youtube.com/user/davqvist
https://www.youtube.com/user/werothegreat

[WNxTyr4el]

Also, if you learn better from watching someone else, there are several channels on youtube dedicated to dominion. To name a few:

https://www.youtube.com/user/WanderingWinder
https://www.youtube.com/user/AdamHorton01
https://www.youtube.com/user/davqvist
https://www.youtube.com/user/werothegreat

+1 for those, thanks!  Those will help!  Now to just find the time to watch them lol.

[WNxTyr4el]

Here's one I just played.  Base set only.  I think the guy was pretty new but I feel I did pretty well.  Any suggestions for improvement?

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20140113/log.516d5351e4b082c74d7ba2e5.1389622385650.txt

[shark_bait]

Despite your opponent having no real cohesive strategy you manage to win albeit only by 10 points.  In a 29 Turn game where your opponent does nothing to attack you that is too long of a game.  In this game I would recommend going for Workshop/Gardens.  This strategy focuses on emptying 3-piles (Gardens, Workshop and Estate).  It is a bit more immune to Cursing because extra cards make Gardens worth more and you can always gain cards up to $4 with Workshop.  But Workshop/Gardens aside, I'll next comment on your play assuming that rush strategy is not available.

Analyzing the Board:

Chapel is present - this makes engine building much much more viable

Attacks - Witch is the only attack.  Cursing is usually a good way to hinder your opponent.  Additionally, Witch is the only form of net hand-size increase.

Woodcutter is present for the plus buy.

Workshop allows for gaining of Villages and Throne Rooms.

Mine can upgrade Silver's into Gold for more high quality treasure. 

This is a really tough engine to run effectively.  You'd need to trash your entire starting deck and then build it up again while being Cursed.  Your payload has to come from Gold/Silver as no action cards can effectively do this.  There is also no sifting cards like Cellar making this deck choke harder when it picks up some victory.  All that being said, I think Witch/Big Money is the way to go.

So how to play Witch/BM?  Open Silver/Silver.  I'd recommend getting 2-3 Witches and then Silver at $3/4 and Gold at $6/7.  So for your gameplay.

Turn 3 - This should be Silver and not Village.  You will not have enough action density to require needing a Village.

Turn 4 - This should be a Witch.  The Gold is nice but you want to start Cursing as soon as possible.  In games with Cursing cards priced at $5 it is common to have to purchase them with $6 which is almost always the correct play.

Turn 5 - Another Witch here.  Cursing is like old chicago voting.  You want to do it early and often.

Turn 9 - Another Silver you want money not action density.

Turn 10 - You don't have enough money to start greening.  You have 3 Gold and 1 Silver.  If you start greening here you will never empty the Province pile especially with your opponent going for a Gardens based strategy.

I'm gonna stop there but I think you'll get the idea.  Your strategy is not focused.  You get some village that are not needed.  You decide to go for Gardens when your deck is not equipped for doing well in a Gardens game.  You do not prepare your deck (in terms of money) for purchasing Provinces.  That's why the game went 29 turns.  You started greening really really early for what your deck was capable of. 

tl.dr.  If you want a Garden based strategy, purchase about 3 Workshop and then pile-drive the Garden and Estate piles followed by the remaining Workshop.

If you want a Big Money strategy, purchase 2-3 Witches and all Silver/Gold.

Hope that helps.

[WNxTyr4el]

That did help actually.  Quite a bit.  I was trying to go for BM but also Gardens, but I guess from reading your post that those two strategies don't work well together.  I should have picked one or the other.

So for BM, had he gone curses, would I have ignored the curses and just kept going for money?  Or would I throw in a few Chapels to trash the curses, estates and coppers?

I read the engine article, but I'm still confused as to how they really work.  Anyone have a different explanation or a "simpler" explanation?

[DG]

In this game you and your opponent overcomplicated some basic strategies. The first strategy is to play with witches and treasure, nothing else, aiming to start buying provinces but finish with gardens and duchies. If you buy villages and throne rooms then there isn't enough treasure in the deck to sustain it once you compete for green cards. The second strategy is to play with workshops only, aiming to gain gardens and win quickly on garden points. You can try using woodcutters instead of workshops but it just isn't as strong.

Another strategy is to use a chapel to strip down the deck early and that becomes much more complicated when you restock the deck. The chapel will work well against witches but could be too slow against workshop/gardens.

[WNxTyr4el]

In this game you and your opponent overcomplicated some basic strategies. The first strategy is to play with witches and treasure, nothing else, aiming to start buying provinces but finish with gardens and duchies. If you buy villages and throne rooms then there isn't enough treasure in the deck to sustain it once you compete for green cards. The second strategy is to play with workshops only, aiming to gain gardens and win quickly on garden points. You can try using woodcutters instead of workshops but it just isn't as strong.

Another strategy is to use a chapel to strip down the deck early and that becomes much more complicated when you restock the deck. The chapel will work well against witches but could be too slow against workshop/gardens.

So I should have just gone with Witches and money (if we're going by my first few buys)?

[shark_bait]

I'm inclined to say skip chapel and focus on Witches/Money.  Others may disagree with my assessment and I'd love to hear opposing views.  Chapel is an interesting thing here.  Chapel/BM (where you trash your starting cards and then play BM) is extremely bad.  Like really bad.  You end of being unable effectively green due to having such low money density.  Opening Chapel/Silver also decreases your probability of hitting $5 for a Witch on turns 3 and 4.  Even if you just use the Chapel to trash Estates and Curses you have to collide them you may wish that you had played a Witch Instead.  The thing about going Silver/Silver into Witch is that you will both Curse you opponent at a faster rate and have a greater money density mid/late game which transitions into better ability to handle victory cards.  This is especially true for Duchy Dancing (where players purposefully ignore the penultimate province instead opting to buy Duchies).

I don't have time to comment on Engines at the moment.  Base set engines are in general weaker than with expansions and more challenging to set up.

[WNxTyr4el]

I'm inclined to say skip chapel and focus on Witches/Money.  Others may disagree with my assessment and I'd love to hear opposing views.  Chapel is an interesting thing here.  Chapel/BM (where you trash your starting cards and then play BM) is extremely bad.  Like really bad.  You end of being unable effectively green due to having such low money density.  Opening Chapel/Silver also decreases your probability of hitting $5 for a Witch on turns 3 and 4.  Even if you just use the Chapel to trash Estates and Curses you have to collide them you may wish that you had played a Witch Instead.  The thing about going Silver/Silver into Witch is that you will both Curse you opponent at a faster rate and have a greater money density mid/late game which transitions into better ability to handle victory cards.  This is especially true for Duchy Dancing (where players purposefully ignore the penultimate province instead opting to buy Duchies).

I don't have time to comment on Engines at the moment.  Base set engines are in general weaker than with expansions and more challenging to set up.

And as that was solely base set, the engines would have been harder and thus I probably didn't recognize them lol.  But that's some good advice.  Next time if there's a witch up I'll try going for Witch/BM

[jsh357]

Re: BM/Gardens
Just generally speaking, a Big Money strategy is aiming to win the game on an average or low amount of turns (usually only has one buy, so that means buying big cards like Provinces) OR at least wants to mirror the opponent in to a Duchy war when the Provinces are low.

However, a Gardens player usually benefits from games running longer and wants cards that gain extra cards.  For BM, Gardens is usually better than Estate, so it's not a bad late game (as in 3 or fewer Provinces left) buy at $4, but other than that you probably want to stick to the Big Money algorithm.

[WNxTyr4el]

Re: BM/Gardens
Just generally speaking, a Big Money strategy is aiming to win the game on an average or low amount of turns (usually only has one buy, so that means buying big cards like Provinces) OR at least wants to mirror the opponent in to a Duchy war when the Provinces are low.

However, a Gardens player usually benefits from games running longer and wants cards that gain extra cards.  For BM, Gardens is usually better than Estate, so it's not a bad late game (as in 3 or fewer Provinces left) buy at $4, but other than that you probably want to stick to the Big Money algorithm.

Ah okay.  So no Witches then if I'm going Gardens?  But if no Gardens then just Witch/BM?  Or are you saying for this game you suggest that I had gone with Gardens/BM?

[shark_bait]

With Workshop:

Workshop/Gardens is superior to Witch/BM

Without Workshop:

Witch/BM is superior to any Garden based strategy (in set given)

However, without Workshop, Gardens are still viable to gain when you are at the point where you would buy Duchies (approximately 4 Provinces gone) and you get a hand of $4. You don't want to be buying Gardens too early because most often you would rather that Garden be a Silver.

[WNxTyr4el]

With Workshop:

Workshop/Gardens is superior to Witch/BM

Without Workshop:

Witch/BM is superior to any Garden based strategy (in set given)

However, without Workshop, Gardens are still viable to gain when you are at the point where you would buy Duchies (approximately 4 Provinces gone) and you get a hand of $4. You don't want to be buying Gardens too early because most often you would rather that Garden be a Silver.

Got it!  Thanks!  My next game will have to be one I make with Base+Intrigue.  Prosperity is next for me but that's still some time away I think.  Unless I just really crave it lol.

[WNxTyr4el]

One more before I head off to bed.  Didn't really know which cards to pick for this engine (Bridge Mega-Turn?) but here it is:

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20140113/log.516f1b58e4b082c74d7dd36d.1389670249594.txt

[KingZog3]

One more before I head off to bed.  Didn't really know which cards to pick for this engine (Bridge Mega-Turn?) but here it is:

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20140113/log.516f1b58e4b082c74d7dd36d.1389670249594.txt

It may not be a mega turn (bridge doesn't always have to be mega) but yes, bridge for sure, especially because there is throne room. Firstly, that Sivler turn 1 should have been Steward. You want to trash fast, and use bridge for money. So I might open Bridge+Steward.  Lots of Labs for sure, and maybe 1-2 Festivals. A lot of Throne rooms too, and a lot of your actions will come from Throne a Throne a Lab a something else. That's why you only need maybe 1-2 Festivals. You should be buying lots of cards a turn because of Bridges, and at least a couple turn of double or triple Provinces.

[2.71828.....]

One more before I head off to bed.  Didn't really know which cards to pick for this engine (Bridge Mega-Turn?) but here it is:

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20140113/log.516f1b58e4b082c74d7dd36d.1389670249594.txt

you mention a bridge mega-turn, which is a great thought for these cards.  However, to have that turn, you need to draw all those bridges into your hand AND have the actions to play them. 

As KingZog mentions, step 1 is trashing.  Never ignore trashing.  steward/silver or steward/bridge are both better options because you will likely be able to trash on either t3 or t4.  I would recommend steward/bridge here, and even if the terminals collide, you still want to trash instead of buying a different card.  The goal is to play bridge(s) every hand.  You don't do that by buying a bunch of bridges, but by trashing into a small deck so that you can play that single bridge every time, and eventually (once you get to step 3) play multiple bridges.

Step 2 is draw.  And for that you need laboratory.  t3 should have been a lab and not a throne room.  Laboratories should be the first pile to be emptied this game.  You want to play bridge as much as possible.  That does not mean buy a bunch of bridges, it means draw your whole deck into your hand.  So you need +cards.  You need laboratory.  (and you need to trash)

Step 3 is actions.  And for that you need a combo of villages and throne rooms.  I say village and throne room because those are components that you can most easily purchase together after playing a bridge.  t4 you could have bought village AND throne room.  Once your draw is firmly established you might get a festival, but festival is a distraction in this game.  Bridge is your +buy and it is better for buying power (money-wise) than festival and is what you really should be buying.

hope that helps a bit

[KingZog3]

I missed Village. Yeah in that case go with what 2.71828 said, and use Village not Festival.

[WNxTyr4el]

So should I always trash when there's a bridge setup?

What if there's no form of trashing?  My big question is how you all pick the same thing consistently with each other but there could be multiple ways to win lol. Unless in the games I've posted there hasn't really been more than one way

[Warfreak2]

You should usually trash when setting up any sort of engine - any strategy which aims to play a lot of action cards every turn. Your deck starts with 10 cards which actively stop you from playing more action cards - they aren't action cards themselves, and whenever you might draw more action cards to play, you might instead draw one of those 10 cards and your chain ends. If you get as many of those 10 cards out of your deck, then you'll find your action cards chaining together a lot more often.

Other times you won't play for an engine, but some trashing can still assist the strategy.

[WNxTyr4el]

You should usually trash when setting up any sort of engine - any strategy which aims to play a lot of action cards every turn. Your deck starts with 10 cards which actively stop you from playing more action cards - they aren't action cards themselves, and whenever you might draw more action cards to play, you might instead draw one of those 10 cards and your chain ends. If you get as many of those 10 cards out of your deck, then you'll find your action cards chaining together a lot more often.

Other times you won't play for an engine, but some trashing can still assist the strategy.

So when is something considered an engine?  That would be my next question lol. I read the article on it but I don't understand when something is considered an engine. Maybe I didn't read well enough though lol

[yed]

So when is something considered an engine?  That would be my next question lol. I read the article on it but I don't understand when something is considered an engine. Maybe I didn't read well enough though lol

When you are building deck which aims to draw large part of itself or even the whole deck.

EDIT: Or shifts through it (for example with Warehouse).

[WNxTyr4el]

So when is something considered an engine?  That would be my next question lol. I read the article on it but I don't understand when something is considered an engine. Maybe I didn't read well enough though lol

When you are building deck which aims to draw large part of itself or even the whole deck.

Very simple, thank you.  That will help me know when to trash then from now on.

In terms of trashing, I know you said that when playing an engine, trashing is generally the way to go.  But what about when not playing an engine.  When will trashing help you out?  Or will it just always be helpful in some form or another?

EDIT: I know adventures aren't really that great but there's Bridge, Village, Workshop, Festival, Conspirator, Witch, Adventurer, Pawn, Steward, and Library and I really wanted to try the Bridge engine here but got beaten pretty badly by the computer lol.  I really want to get off the engine successfully and learn how to do it but with all the different combos I never really know if it's the best idea or not.  Would it not be a good idea here due to not having Throne Room or King's Court?  Does the Bridge engine pretty much require one of those two cards?

I'm also having a hard time getting the right amount of terminals and non-terminals with money.  Is there some kind of "rule" for that?  Or is it kinda just that you gotta' feel it out?

[markusin]

Can trashing be useful when you're not going engine? The short answer is yes. Even Big Money decks like having a little bit of trashing , particularly to trash Estates. What cards provide "a little bit of trashing?" In Base+Intrigue you have Masquerade, Upgrade, and possibly Steward and Moneylender.

You know, Bridge is not a key card in every game it's in. Sometimes, it's not worth getting at all. In the board you provided above though, it can be used to support a Festival/Library/Conspirator deck that uses Steward for trashing and Village and Pawn for  additional reliability.

[WNxTyr4el]

Can trashing be useful when you're not going engine? The short answer is yes. Even Big Money decks like having a little bit of trashing , particularly to trash Estates. What cards provide "a little bit of trashing?" In Base+Intrigue you have Masquerade, Upgrade, and possibly Steward and Moneylender.

You know, Bridge is not a key card in every game it's in. Sometimes, it's not worth getting at all. In the board you provided above though, it can be used to support a Festival/Library/Conspirator deck that uses Steward for trashing and Village and Pawn for  additional reliability.

Awesome answer!  Thank you!  That really helps.  Is there a method to analyzing the board and seeing which strategy would be most beneficial?  So far I've been going with what I know and what makes sense to me or is easiest to pull off.  But I'd like to pull off some harder strategies that require more cards or something.  Thoughts on this?

[jsh357]

Can trashing be useful when you're not going engine? The short answer is yes. Even Big Money decks like having a little bit of trashing , particularly to trash Estates. What cards provide "a little bit of trashing?" In Base+Intrigue you have Masquerade, Upgrade, and possibly Steward and Moneylender.

You know, Bridge is not a key card in every game it's in. Sometimes, it's not worth getting at all. In the board you provided above though, it can be used to support a Festival/Library/Conspirator deck that uses Steward for trashing and Village and Pawn for  additional reliability.

Awesome answer!  Thank you!  That really helps.  Is there a method to analyzing the board and seeing which strategy would be most beneficial?  So far I've been going with what I know and what makes sense to me or is easiest to pull off.  But I'd like to pull off some harder strategies that require more cards or something.  Thoughts on this?

It comes with experience.  When I'm thinking about an engine I usually look for a few things: 1. Cursing (or Looting or Ambassador) attacks 2. Trashing options, 3. +Buy or a card that gains other cards, 4. Some form of card draw, 5. How I'm going to afford Provinces/Colonies/goal cards.  You can make engines that work without these parts, but they tend to have weaknesses and will rely more on money than actions in some cases. The cursing attacks are often crucial to take note of, as they can potentially ruin an engine or require that you get certain card to counter them. They also allow you to stop an opponent's deck from improving. Having card draw is something you really don't want to overlook (I used to all the time).  You can't make a deck that consistently plays the cards it needs to unless you draw them. The most helpful tool for me learning how to recognize good engines was watching WanderingWinder's videos back when he started, though that might not help everyone.

I guess the way I like to think of engines in general is: Remember when you started playing Dominion and were fascinated by all the ways cards could interact and wanted to try everything in a kingdom?  Engines are like doing that, but with a clear plan. As a man with an English degree, it reminds me a lot of William Blake's cycle of innocence and experience...

[shark_bait]

You've just asked to be able to do something that even the best players have difficulty doing at times.

The biggest answer to you question is experience.  Play some Dominion and lose a lot of games against better players.  You need to understand the limits and capabilities of each card which means you need to play numerous games with the different cards.  By playing against better players and analyzing their play you will begin to see faster for yourself what certain cards are capable of.

There are multiple levels of playing a game of dominion correctly. 

First, you need to be able to look at the board and determine the optimal strategy.  This requires an intimate knowledge of each card. 

Second, you need to understand how to implement your strategy.  In engine games this often requires knowing the correct order to buy cards. 

Thirdly, you need to know how to win.  This means a deep understanding of the end-game conditions, both Province/Colony and 3-Pile.  You need to take your implemented strategy and find a way to win.  Understanding the mirror match-up (where your opponent plays the same strategy) is crucial as they are more likely to end in 3-Pile with few VP bought.  Know when to start greening and when to break the Penultimate Province Rule are crucial for BM match-ups.

You've just asked for a lot that no amount of text can provide.  Go out and play some Dominion.  Lose and then figure out why you lost.  That's honestly the best thing you can do to improve your play.

[WNxTyr4el]

You've just asked to be able to do something that even the best players have difficulty doing at times.

The biggest answer to you question is experience.  Play some Dominion and lose a lot of games against better players.  You need to understand the limits and capabilities of each card which means you need to play numerous games with the different cards.  By playing against better players and analyzing their play you will begin to see faster for yourself what certain cards are capable of.

There are multiple levels of playing a game of dominion correctly. 

First, you need to be able to look at the board and determine the optimal strategy.  This requires an intimate knowledge of each card. 

Second, you need to understand how to implement your strategy.  In engine games this often requires knowing the correct order to buy cards. 

Thirdly, you need to know how to win.  This means a deep understanding of the end-game conditions, both Province/Colony and 3-Pile.  You need to take your implemented strategy and find a way to win.  Understanding the mirror match-up (where your opponent plays the same strategy) is crucial as they are more likely to end in 3-Pile with few VP bought.  Know when to start greening and when to break the Penultimate Province Rule are crucial for BM match-ups.

You've just asked for a lot that no amount of text can provide.  Go out and play some Dominion.  Lose and then figure out why you lost.  That's honestly the best thing you can do to improve your play.

That's totally acceptable.  I had to ask though to see if there was an answer that could be written with text.  It appears that there is not.  That's totally fine .  I'm all for playing games against better players.  If you all see me online sometime @ WNxTyr4el, feel free to message or type in chat to me or something.  Make a game with my name in it and I'll join lol. 

Can trashing be useful when you're not going engine? The short answer is yes. Even Big Money decks like having a little bit of trashing , particularly to trash Estates. What cards provide "a little bit of trashing?" In Base+Intrigue you have Masquerade, Upgrade, and possibly Steward and Moneylender.

You know, Bridge is not a key card in every game it's in. Sometimes, it's not worth getting at all. In the board you provided above though, it can be used to support a Festival/Library/Conspirator deck that uses Steward for trashing and Village and Pawn for  additional reliability.

Awesome answer!  Thank you!  That really helps.  Is there a method to analyzing the board and seeing which strategy would be most beneficial?  So far I've been going with what I know and what makes sense to me or is easiest to pull off.  But I'd like to pull off some harder strategies that require more cards or something.  Thoughts on this?

It comes with experience.  When I'm thinking about an engine I usually look for a few things: 1. Cursing (or Looting or Ambassador) attacks 2. Trashing options, 3. +Buy or a card that gains other cards, 4. Some form of card draw, 5. How I'm going to afford Provinces/Colonies/goal cards.  You can make engines that work without these parts, but they tend to have weaknesses and will rely more on money than actions in some cases. The cursing attacks are often crucial to take note of, as they can potentially ruin an engine or require that you get certain card to counter them. They also allow you to stop an opponent's deck from improving. Having card draw is something you really don't want to overlook (I used to all the time).  You can't make a deck that consistently plays the cards it needs to unless you draw them. The most helpful tool for me learning how to recognize good engines was watching WanderingWinder's videos back when he started, though that might not help everyone.

I guess the way I like to think of engines in general is: Remember when you started playing Dominion and were fascinated by all the ways cards could interact and wanted to try everything in a kingdom?  Engines are like doing that, but with a clear plan. As a man with an English degree, it reminds me a lot of William Blake's cycle of innocence and experience...

Lots of good things to look for.  Thanks for bringing those to my attention.  I'll try looking for those from now on. 

Again - WNxTyr4el on Goko.

[Mic Qsenoch]

An important thing to see on both this board and the other Bridge game you posted is that treasures are actively bad for the best strategy. Yes, even Gold(!) is an awful card on both of these boards, which is a little strange, but it's true. Adding treasures to your deck will make it much harder to play your action cards.

Since treasures are bad you want to: trash as many Coppers as you can with Steward, buy no more than one Silver (the Silver is only to help you buy your first couple $5 action cards), and don't buy Gold at all. The rest of your purchases should be action cards.

Note on Library - one of the main reasons to avoid treasures. Library can refill your hand with cards after you've played action cards, but you can't get rid of treasure from your hand on this board, so every treasure you draw makes it harder to play more actions and draw more cards.

[WNxTyr4el]

An important thing to see on both this board and the other Bridge game you posted is that treasures are actively bad for the best strategy. Yes, even Gold(!) is an awful card on both of these boards, which is a little strange, but it's true. Adding treasures to your deck will make it much harder to play your action cards.

Since treasures are bad you want to: trash as many Coppers as you can with Steward, buy no more than one Silver (the Silver is only to help you buy your first couple $5 action cards), and don't buy Gold at all. The rest of your purchases should be action cards.

Note on Library - one of the main reasons to avoid treasures. Library can refill your hand with cards after you've played action cards, but you can't get rid of treasure from your hand on this board, so every treasure you draw makes it harder to play more actions and draw more cards.

Lol, whoops.  Messed up on that just now.  I bought Silver and Gold and ended up with -6 due to curses, lol.  Horrible.  I'll try adding in Library and at least 1 Witch to throw off the AI.  I'm terribad haha.

[flies]

Here are my thoughts on what an "engine" is.

Slogs aim to draw the game out and play few actions per turn.  rushes aim to get the cards they need quick and then pile out.  Big Money (BM) buys few actions, mostly money, and aims for provinces, then duchies. 

Combos and Engines are what remain.  Combos are basically each in their own category, so we'll ignore them. (A learning player like yourself needn't concern yourself with these relatively exotic decks, but if you enjoy just reading about the game, you can look up chancellor/stash, hermit/market square (especially challenging to pull off), native village/bridge, native village/apothecary, to see what I'm talking about.)

Basically, an engine is a deck where you play a lot of actions that work together to become more than the sum of the parts. 

A draw-to-X engine (library or watchtower) is a good example of how deck synergy works.  Festival is good but lacks draw.  Library is good, but playing several in a row doesn't help you.  However, if you can play lots of festivals (and/or other cards that produce $$ and reduce hand size, e.g. bridge, oasis) in between libraries, then the library draws a crap ton.  When you play a lot of actions that synergize, that's an engine.  (Drawing your deck is kind of a side-effect in my view.)

I guess a village and smithy don't really "synergize" particularly by themselves, but then by themselves they make for an "engine" that will consistently lose.  You need other cards (generally some combination of attacks, trashing, +buy, and alt-vp) that make the village/smithy interaction worth setting up, and that's synergy.


A beginning player like yourself can learn a lot by mastering the basics of big money.  Once you get a feel for the strength of big money (that is, when you look at a board, you should have a feel for how strong BM will be on that board), you can begin to get a sense of where engines are worth building.  Note that really weak Big Money support is another reason to go engine.

[WNxTyr4el]

Holy wall of text, Batman!

That was a good read. Thanks for that. That really helped actually. I actually played a quick adventure earlier of Prosperity and won by a landslide due to the engine I had going. Labs/Village/Market/Witch/Monument (the board was shit for anything else). Took all the colonies I think lol. But that made me think of some questions.

1.) when there aren't any +money cards in play, is an engine still viable and would that mean you take more money from the piles?
2.) if trashing is available do you only trash estates or coppers too?  Or do you only trash coppers if you have a way of recovering that with a silver or better?

[flies]

Holy wall of text, Batman!

That was a good read. Thanks for that. That really helped actually. I actually played a quick adventure earlier of Prosperity and won by a landslide due to the engine I had going. Labs/Village/Market/Witch/Monument (the board was shit for anything else). Took all the colonies I think lol. But that made me think of some questions.

1.) when there aren't any +money cards in play, is an engine still viable and would that mean you take more money from the piles?
2.) if trashing is available do you only trash estates or coppers too?  Or do you only trash coppers if you have a way of recovering that with a silver or better?

pardon my pontification.  procrastination is my god.

2 is easy.  Trashing copper is nearly always good, the main exception being the opportunity cost of getting a trasher instead of treasure (e.g. sometimes you'd rather have a silver than the steward you'd be getting to trash copper and estates). 

regarding 1, actions that directly provide money are not necessary to an engine.  They are nice, especially when they're doing more than just giving $$.  it's hard to make treasure synergize with your actions, hence the preference for actions, but gold and platinum have their uses.  The "what's good for engines?" section of WW's article on the engine ( http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/01/23/the-five-fundamental-deck-types-the-engine/ ).  I'd add "some form of draw" to his list: you'll note that five of the six types of engines he lists are defined by the kind of draw they use (I'm including double-tactician, which is debatable, but close enough for these purposes), while a mega-turn engine also needs some sort of draw. 

None of these "what's good" items is necessary by itself (engines lacking some gainer/+buy can be viable), but you'll almost always need many of them. 

It's worth noting that most kingdoms will have at least a few items off the list, so building some kind of engine is usually possible, but often the engine is hard to see and hard to build; plus once you see the possibility, you have to assess whether it's the best thing going.

[WNxTyr4el]

Holy wall of text, Batman!

That was a good read. Thanks for that. That really helped actually. I actually played a quick adventure earlier of Prosperity and won by a landslide due to the engine I had going. Labs/Village/Market/Witch/Monument (the board was shit for anything else). Took all the colonies I think lol. But that made me think of some questions.

1.) when there aren't any +money cards in play, is an engine still viable and would that mean you take more money from the piles?
2.) if trashing is available do you only trash estates or coppers too?  Or do you only trash coppers if you have a way of recovering that with a silver or better?

pardon my pontification.  procrastination is my god.

2 is easy.  Trashing copper is nearly always good, the main exception being the opportunity cost of getting a trasher instead of treasure (e.g. sometimes you'd rather have a silver than the steward you'd be getting to trash copper and estates). 

regarding 1, actions that directly provide money are not necessary to an engine.  They are nice, especially when they're doing more than just giving $$.  it's hard to make treasure synergize with your actions, hence the preference for actions, but gold and platinum have their uses.  The "what's good for engines?" section of WW's article on the engine ( http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/01/23/the-five-fundamental-deck-types-the-engine/ ).  I'd add "some form of draw" to his list: you'll note that five of the six types of engines he lists are defined by the kind of draw they use (I'm including double-tactician, which is debatable, but close enough for these purposes), while a mega-turn engine also needs some sort of draw. 

None of these "what's good" items is necessary by itself (engines lacking some gainer/+buy can be viable), but you'll almost always need many of them. 

It's worth noting that most kingdoms will have at least a few items off the list, so building some kind of engine is usually possible, but often the engine is hard to see and hard to build; plus once you see the possibility, you have to assess whether it's the best thing going.

That helps a lot, thank you.  Just played a game and lost .  It's really hard to know what to pick against actual players.  I need more practice.  Here's the game for comments:

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20140115/log.516f1b58e4b082c74d7dd36d.1389829219644.txt

[jsh357]

Don't have time to read the whole log right now, but: when you're being attacked by Saboteur, it's typically better to take nothing instead of gaining Copper (I noticed you had 20 Copper at endgame and was trying to see why) unless you are running Counting House or something.  The extra copper will prevent you from drawing other more useful cards.  That board looks fairly challenging and a bit swingy too. 

[WNxTyr4el]

Don't have time to read the whole log right now, but: when you're being attacked by Saboteur, it's typically better to take nothing instead of gaining Copper (I noticed you had 20 Copper at endgame and was trying to see why) unless you are running Counting House or something.  The extra copper will prevent you from drawing other more useful cards.  That board looks fairly challenging and a bit swingy too.

It was.  I didn't know you could take nothing.  How do you take nothing?  I thought you had to lol.

Here's another: http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20140115/log.516fdd73e4b082c74d7e3400.1389830058939.txt - I wanna post this one because it makes use of cellar which I just do not understand the use of or when to use it or what to discard when you do use it

Lol my FIRST win against someone!  Woo - http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20140115/log.50d378d7e4b0b3b44c66f2bb.1389830817319.txt - I figured out how Cellar works but still could use some examples/clarity on my questions above.

[flies]

Re saboteur: At right below the kingdom cards is a "take nothing" button.

Just wanted to add that the bots play money strategies much more competently than they do anything else, so if you can beat them at this then you're doing pretty well.

[WNxTyr4el]

Re saboteur: At right below the kingdom cards is a "take nothing" button.

Just wanted to add that the bots play money strategies much more competently than they do anything else, so if you can beat them at this then you're doing pretty well.

Thanks!

Those were real people lol. Or are u just saying that I can play bots to get better?

[ConMan]

The main things to consider when playing with Cellar are:

1. It reduces your hand size by 1
2. It works best when you've got something in hand you want to discard, and something in your deck you want to draw

Both of these together mean that it does its best work when you can increase your handsize a little, but still need to filter through your deck to find key cards - so it's not great at the start of the game (where you don't really have many key cards and are likely to see them regularly enough anyway), and often still not fantastic mid-game (unless there's no good trashing, so you need to sift through your deck to find the good cards). It can be good late-game, when you've started to green and may need to filter through those to get to the good cards, and especially if you've been faced with a junking attack and can't trash all the junk away. It's also a middling-good Tunnel enabler, and definitely one of the cheapest.

[jsh357]

If you are playing a deck that draws a bunch of cards but has junk in it (like estates, coppers, curses, etc) it's handy to have a Cellar so you can discard those and draw more.  That said, Cellar is usually a pretty weak card that you should probably only buy when you would see yourself benefiting from it.  It's especially poor against handsize attacks like Militia or Torturer, since Cellar does you a lot less good when you have 2 cards left in your hand.  It tends to be better late in the game after you start buying victory cards.

[WNxTyr4el]

If you are playing a deck that draws a bunch of cards but has junk in it (like estates, coppers, curses, etc) it's handy to have a Cellar so you can discard those and draw more.  That said, Cellar is usually a pretty weak card that you should probably only buy when you would see yourself benefiting from it.  It's especially poor against handsize attacks like Militia or Torturer, since Cellar does you a lot less good when you have 2 cards left in your hand.  It tends to be better late in the game after you start buying victory cards.

The main things to consider when playing with Cellar are:

1. It reduces your hand size by 1
2. It works best when you've got something in hand you want to discard, and something in your deck you want to draw

Both of these together mean that it does its best work when you can increase your handsize a little, but still need to filter through your deck to find key cards - so it's not great at the start of the game (where you don't really have many key cards and are likely to see them regularly enough anyway), and often still not fantastic mid-game (unless there's no good trashing, so you need to sift through your deck to find the good cards). It can be good late-game, when you've started to green and may need to filter through those to get to the good cards, and especially if you've been faced with a junking attack and can't trash all the junk away. It's also a middling-good Tunnel enabler, and definitely one of the cheapest.

Thank you both for your responses.  I'm hoping to play more games and learn more as I go on.  I have Prosperity, Intrigue, Alchemy and Hinterlands now so that's a good list of expansions to play with.  Lots of learning to do. 

Any tips for those expansions?  Just general ones, not really card related.  Or do those general tips sort of stay the same throughout?

[shark_bait]

For Prosperity:  Colonies add a total of 80 VP Points to the game.  In a two-player game with solely Provinces there are 84 total points.  The presence of Colonies almost doubles the amount of points available.  This gives more credence to engines that take longer to build up but that have a greater payload later in the game.

[WNxTyr4el]

For Prosperity:  Colonies add a total of 80 VP Points to the game.  In a two-player game with solely Provinces there are 84 total points.  The presence of Colonies almost doubles the amount of points available.  This gives more credence to engines that take longer to build up but that have a greater payload later in the game.

Good tip, thank you.  So basically that means engines that take longer are more viable when colonies are out on the board?

[KingZog3]

For Prosperity:  Colonies add a total of 80 VP Points to the game.  In a two-player game with solely Provinces there are 84 total points.  The presence of Colonies almost doubles the amount of points available.  This gives more credence to engines that take longer to build up but that have a greater payload later in the game.

Good tip, thank you.  So basically that means engines that take longer are more viable when colonies are out on the board?

Yeah. Also some of the Prosperity cards can get a little crazy, like King's Court and Goons specifically.

[WNxTyr4el]

For Prosperity:  Colonies add a total of 80 VP Points to the game.  In a two-player game with solely Provinces there are 84 total points.  The presence of Colonies almost doubles the amount of points available.  This gives more credence to engines that take longer to build up but that have a greater payload later in the game.

Good tip, thank you.  So basically that means engines that take longer are more viable when colonies are out on the board?

Yeah. Also some of the Prosperity cards can get a little crazy, like King's Court and Goons specifically.

Ha, I saw Kings Court.  It's Throne Room x3 lol.

[KingZog3]

For Prosperity:  Colonies add a total of 80 VP Points to the game.  In a two-player game with solely Provinces there are 84 total points.  The presence of Colonies almost doubles the amount of points available.  This gives more credence to engines that take longer to build up but that have a greater payload later in the game.

Good tip, thank you.  So basically that means engines that take longer are more viable when colonies are out on the board?

Yeah. Also some of the Prosperity cards can get a little crazy, like King's Court and Goons specifically.

Ha, I saw Kings Court.  It's Throne Room x3 lol.

yeah but it's way more than x3 the fun.

[flies]

the big difference between KC and TR is that if chaining throne rooms isn't a big deal.  tr-tr-tr-market-market-market isn't much better than tr-market x 3 (all you get is extra actions).  However, KC-KC-X enables you to play 3 tripled actions (as opposed to the two if you played the KC's separately) with additional KC's in the chain adding 2 tripled actions each.  This leads to insanity 

You can do wacky things like having deck engine consisting solely of KC, terminal actions, and VP, provided some of your terminal actions provide draw and others provide money.  e.g. KC-KC-smithy-KC-Mountebank-etc-etc. 

[WNxTyr4el]

That just sounds insane lol.

Would anyone be up for a few practice games using the expansions I have sometime?

[flies]

sure.  meet in outpost?

[WNxTyr4el]

sure.  meet in outpost?

Ha yeah I'll hang out there from now on. Sorry if that post wasn't clear lol. I work full time and have little time to play. I travel for business Monday though. Wifi should be good enough for me to get on. That's where I'll be though. I may have time tomorrow or Saturday though. Depends on when the gf goes out lol

[WNxTyr4el]

Decided to play a match against the bots real quick. Didn't finish but it had some alchemy cards in it. I must say I actually enjoy the mechanics of Alchemy.  I heard that it wasn't well received. Why is that?

And on that note...how do you know how many potions to buy?  Lol. I was trying to balance that with treasure and kingdom cards and it was hard!

[yed]

Decided to play a match against the bots real quick. Didn't finish but it had some alchemy cards in it. I must say I actually enjoy the mechanics of Alchemy.  I heard that it wasn't well received. Why is that?

A lot of people hate Possession. Some don't like the concept of potion as second currency. But I love Alchemy and I'm sure I'm not alone.

And on that note...how do you know how many potions to buy?  Lol. I was trying to balance that with treasure and kingdom cards and it was hard!

Usually only one. Two for Alchemists when there is no trashing. And 2 to 4 when you are trying to win the Vineyards split.

[WNxTyr4el]

Decided to play a match against the bots real quick. Didn't finish but it had some alchemy cards in it. I must say I actually enjoy the mechanics of Alchemy.  I heard that it wasn't well received. Why is that?

A lot of people hate Possession. Some don't like the concept of potion as second currency. But I love Alchemy and I'm sure I'm not alone.

And on that note...how do you know how many potions to buy?  Lol. I was trying to balance that with treasure and kingdom cards and it was hard!

Usually only one. Two for Alchemists when there is no trashing. And 2 to 4 when you are trying to win the Vineyards split.

Makes sense.  I think thats how many the bot got.  There was trashing with Steward though, so how many would be optimal then?

[Davio]

Generally you only get more than one Potion for Alchemists and Vineyards.

If there were Alchemists and trashing, one would suffice.

[yed]

Makes sense.  I think thats how many the bot got.  There was trashing with Steward though, so how many would be optimal then?

Depends on the Kingdom. What was in it?

[WNxTyr4el]

Makes sense.  I think thats how many the bot got.  There was trashing with Steward though, so how many would be optimal then?

Depends on the Kingdom. What was in it?

Let me think.  Alchemist, Secret Chamber, Vineyard (I think), another Treasure kingdom card, and uhhhh I can't remember the rest xD

[jsh357]

Decided to play a match against the bots real quick. Didn't finish but it had some alchemy cards in it. I must say I actually enjoy the mechanics of Alchemy.  I heard that it wasn't well received. Why is that?

And on that note...how do you know how many potions to buy?  Lol. I was trying to balance that with treasure and kingdom cards and it was hard!

Whatever you do, don't pay attention to how many Potions the AI buys.  Sometimes it will buy 5 or 6 of them for seemingly no reason.  You probably want at MOST three, and that's only for Vineyards pretty much.  In 90% of cases where you want Potions, one Potion is fine. Oftentimes you can ignore Potion cards too. It all depends on what's in the kingdom.

As for why people dislike Alchemy, I think a lot of it's because IRL several of the cards are obnoxious to play (Golem, Philosopher's Stone, Possession...) for various reasons, and adding Potion costs to things complicates how some cards work unnecessarily.  Personally, Alchemy is one of my favorite expansions, though.  It and Guilds are the most 'out there.'

[WNxTyr4el]

Decided to play a match against the bots real quick. Didn't finish but it had some alchemy cards in it. I must say I actually enjoy the mechanics of Alchemy.  I heard that it wasn't well received. Why is that?

And on that note...how do you know how many potions to buy?  Lol. I was trying to balance that with treasure and kingdom cards and it was hard!

Whatever you do, don't pay attention to how many Potions the AI buys.  Sometimes it will buy 5 or 6 of them for seemingly no reason.  You probably want at MOST three, and that's only for Vineyards pretty much.  In 90% of cases where you want Potions, one Potion is fine. Oftentimes you can ignore Potion cards too. It all depends on what's in the kingdom.

These were pretty good potion cards.  I mean Alchemist's action is ridiculous.  Hard to ignore that.  I remember Bridge was in the set too...can't remember what else.

[jsh357]

Decided to play a match against the bots real quick. Didn't finish but it had some alchemy cards in it. I must say I actually enjoy the mechanics of Alchemy.  I heard that it wasn't well received. Why is that?

And on that note...how do you know how many potions to buy?  Lol. I was trying to balance that with treasure and kingdom cards and it was hard!

Whatever you do, don't pay attention to how many Potions the AI buys.  Sometimes it will buy 5 or 6 of them for seemingly no reason.  You probably want at MOST three, and that's only for Vineyards pretty much.  In 90% of cases where you want Potions, one Potion is fine. Oftentimes you can ignore Potion cards too. It all depends on what's in the kingdom.

These were pretty good potion cards.  I mean Alchemist's action is ridiculous.  Hard to ignore that.  I remember Bridge was in the set too...can't remember what else.

Well, even if they are good Potion cards, usually just one will buy you what you need, though there are certainly exceptions.  Yeah, Alchemist is one of those cards that just seems crazy good when you first play with it.  You'll come to realize it has its weaknesses, but building a deck that uses an Alchemist stack is always fun.

[WNxTyr4el]

Decided to play a match against the bots real quick. Didn't finish but it had some alchemy cards in it. I must say I actually enjoy the mechanics of Alchemy.  I heard that it wasn't well received. Why is that?

And on that note...how do you know how many potions to buy?  Lol. I was trying to balance that with treasure and kingdom cards and it was hard!

Whatever you do, don't pay attention to how many Potions the AI buys.  Sometimes it will buy 5 or 6 of them for seemingly no reason.  You probably want at MOST three, and that's only for Vineyards pretty much.  In 90% of cases where you want Potions, one Potion is fine. Oftentimes you can ignore Potion cards too. It all depends on what's in the kingdom.

These were pretty good potion cards.  I mean Alchemist's action is ridiculous.  Hard to ignore that.  I remember Bridge was in the set too...can't remember what else.

Well, even if they are good Potion cards, usually just one will buy you what you need, though there are certainly exceptions.  Yeah, Alchemist is one of those cards that just seems crazy good when you first play with it.  You'll come to realize it has its weaknesses, but building a deck that uses an Alchemist stack is always fun.

I'll try just one next time.  There were too many new cards I hadn't played with yet in this one bot match and I couldn't take the time to check them all out, lol.  Was gonna try Alchemist/Bridge haha

[WanderingWinder]

People are talking about getting more than one potion for alchemist. Usually you only want one even with alchemist, even without trashing (though usually you don't want alchemist at all).

[WNxTyr4el]

People are talking about getting more than one potion for alchemist. Usually you only want one even with alchemist, even without trashing (though usually you don't want alchemist at all).

I found it to be one of the better villages (right term) on the board and I wanted to try out it's mechanics lol

[WanderingWinder]

People are talking about getting more than one potion for alchemist. Usually you only want one even with alchemist, even without trashing (though usually you don't want alchemist at all).

I found it to be one of the better villages (right term) on the board and I wanted to try out it's mechanics lol

Alchemist isn't a village - villages give +2 actions. Alchemist gives only one.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think the term you want is "non-terminal" (meaning it gives at least +1 action).  "Village" implies +2 or more actions.

[WNxTyr4el]

I think the term you want is "non-terminal" (meaning it gives at least +1 action).  "Village" implies +2 or more actions.

Yes that's the one lol

[SCSN]

People are talking about getting more than one potion for alchemist. Usually you only want one even with alchemist, even without trashing (though usually you don't want alchemist at all).

If Alchemists are worth going for at all, you usually want a 2nd Potion pretty soon (2nd/3rd $4, depending on other cards), and consider trashing it only once you can reliably draw your deck each turn and there are no other uses for it. With two Potions you not only amass Alchemists quicker, but you also play them more often, which really speeds up deck-building and gives you a sizable advantage in the mirror.

[DG]

I wouldn't lay down a rule for the number of potions. The ideal situation has the alchemists drawing the whole deck so you only need one potion, but if you're in a messier situation or using other potion cost cards as well then two potions can be better.

Alchemists are a slightly slow card to get going in many decks. This seems fine to many players since the engines they make can be slow to develop anyway, however better players can often find faster strategies without alchemists.

[WNxTyr4el]

I wouldn't lay down a rule for the number of potions. The ideal situation has the alchemists drawing the whole deck so you only need one potion, but if you're in a messier situation or using other potion cost cards as well then two potions can be better.

Alchemists are a slightly slow card to get going in many decks. This seems fine to many players since the engines they make can be slow to develop anyway, however better players can often find faster strategies without alchemists.

That's fair enough .  Lol SCSN, I was in Outpost trying to get a game with you but you were with WanderingWinder.  Anyway, here's an adventure match I played with Hinterlands cards and I REALLY liked the setup.  I know it's not much to make myself better but I like playing adventures to get used to the cards.  I can take time to read them and not piss off the other player cuz it's just a stupid computer

http://dominionlogs.goko.com//20140118/log.516f1b58e4b082c74d7dd36d.1390066362564.txt

[amalloy]

Check out http://dom.retrobox.eu/ - it makes Goko's logs much prettier. If you use the Salvager extension you automatically get those logs; otherwise, you can go to the site and paste the URL of your Goko log into the box at the top. Then you'll have a page like http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140118/log.516f1b58e4b082c74d7dd36d.1390066362564.txt, which is easier for everyone to read.

[WNxTyr4el]

Check out http://dom.retrobox.eu/ - it makes Goko's logs much prettier. If you use the Salvager extension you automatically get those logs; otherwise, you can go to the site and paste the URL of your Goko log into the box at the top. Then you'll have a page like http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140118/log.516f1b58e4b082c74d7dd36d.1390066362564.txt, which is easier for everyone to read.

Woah that's really neat!  Thank you!

[flies]

here's an example of how I'd play that adventures game  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140122/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1390401727186.txt

I think you want to open lab/chapel to both maximize the chance of hitting the chapel and to help it find ideal targets (remember you've got 2 silvers so this opening is almost assuredly possible).  Once you're trashed down reasonably (two chapel plays or so), get a haggler and start massing labs so you can draw your deck every turn.  you want to play a militia every turn as well to hurt your opponent, although greta is basically cake.  you want fool's gold as your primary source of $$, but get just enough to hit $16.  So you need a market, a bunch of labs (as many as possible as high density prevents dud hands), enough villages to play two hagglers and a militia, and no more FG than necessary.  All of your starting cards are junk including the silver.  Note the late remodel/gold pickups as a help toward ending the game. 

I'm pretty sure it ought to be possible to empty the provinces in less than 13 turns reliably, but I wasn't able to get there myself.  Against a human opponent, there would be competition for labs and other components, with haggler providing pile pressure*, so the tactics become very different and much trickier.

* pile pressure meaning that haggler makes it a lot easier to empty 3 piles and end it.  pile pressure makes it so you need to green earlier than you might otherwise to prevent your opponent from piling out on a win.  this is a sort of "advanced tactics" issue.

[flies]

the salvager extension is recommended! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9198.msg283465#msg283465

[WNxTyr4el]

here's an example of how I'd play that adventures game  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140122/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1390401727186.txt

I think you want to open lab/chapel to both maximize the chance of hitting the chapel and to help it find ideal targets (remember you've got 2 silvers so this opening is almost assuredly possible).  Once you're trashed down reasonably (two chapel plays or so), get a haggler and start massing labs so you can draw your deck every turn.  you want to play a militia every turn as well to hurt your opponent, although greta is basically cake.  you want fool's gold as your primary source of $$, but get just enough to hit $16.  So you need a market, a bunch of labs (as many as possible as high density prevents dud hands), enough villages to play two hagglers and a militia, and no more FG than necessary.  All of your starting cards are junk including the silver.  Note the late remodel/gold pickups as a help toward ending the game. 

I'm pretty sure it ought to be possible to empty the provinces in less than 13 turns reliably, but I wasn't able to get there myself.  Against a human opponent, there would be competition for labs and other components, with haggler providing pile pressure*, so the tactics become very different and much trickier.

* pile pressure meaning that haggler makes it a lot easier to empty 3 piles and end it.  pile pressure makes it so you need to green earlier than you might otherwise to prevent your opponent from piling out on a win.  this is a sort of "advanced tactics" issue.

Pretty detailed play, lol.  Thanks!  I've been playing against friends lately who just started the game and having fun and working on my strategy that way.  But it's helping out quite a bit.

And I got the extension!  It's really helpful!  Shows a log on the side in-game which is really helpful