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[eHalcyon]

I am going to appropriate this thread.

What are your thoughts on Love Letter?  Is it worth buying, or would it perhaps be better just to make my own PnP version?  How does it compare to other micro games like Coup or Mascarade, or a game I haven't heard of?

[Teproc]

I like Coup better than Love Letter (haven't played Masquerade), but you really should just try it out to know which one you prefer I think. And for the price, they are worth buying, they'll look much better than PnP (admittedly this is more true of Love Letter than Coup).

[Ozle]

I own citadels which I believe is of that ilk.

As long as your playing with strategic players its great. If you are playing with people who just focus on thier own stuff and the pretty colours then its rubbish

[Watno]

Love Letter is a nice filler, but not really more than that. It works with 2-4 players (but I guess you could squeeze some more in without much (or is it many? Much sounds nicer in my head, but logic tells me it should be many) problems).

Mascarade I played twice. The first time we had like 11 players and it was totally awesome. The second time we were 6 and it was much more meh. If you regularely have huge groups of players (like 8+), I'd absolutely recommend going for this.

I haven't played Coup.

Citadels is quite cool, but it can really drag and have a lot of downtime. I wouldn't really recommend it anymore, there are just other games with the same feel that go much more smoothly.

[eHalcyon]

Citadels seems different to me, in that it felt like a longer kind of game. What games fill the same niche (ultra portable, works for many players)?

[Ozle]

Citadels seems different to me, in that it felt like a longer kind of game. What games fill the same niche (ultra portable, works for many players)?

Incan Gold
Sabouteur?

[Grujah]

Love Letter is a nice filler, but not really more than that. It works with 2-4 players (but I guess you could squeeze some more in without much (or is it many? Much sounds nicer in my head, but logic tells me it should be many) problems).

Much problem. Many problems.

Either is right. I think.

[Watno]

Citadels seems different to me, in that it felt like a longer kind of game. What games fill the same niche (ultra portable, works for many players)?

Definitely Mascarade imo.

[Teproc]

Citadels is definitely a "heavier" game, and it's really not the same kind of game for me. Coup and Love Letter are bluffing games, Citadels is more of a double-guessing (also known as WIFOM) game, if that difference makes sense. It's also much longer (that's the only problem with that game, I highly recommand playing with 7 buildings instead of 8 in Citadels, and even then the game can get up to an hour with 7 or 8 players).

[Tables]

Much problem. Many problems.

Much problem. Many problems. So grammar. Very wow.

[Kirian]

Much problem. Many problems.

Much problem. Many problems. So grammar. Very wow.

Be nice, Tables, or I'll photoshop you onto a Shiba Inu.

Watno, Grujah:  In English the modifiers much and many apply only to collective nouns (mass nouns) and countable nouns (count nouns) respectively.  Since problems are countable, you would say "many problems."  Problem, singular, is never used as a mass noun, so even "much problem" would be wrong.  However, both "much difficulty" and "many difficulties" are allowable because difficulty, singular, is often used as a mass noun.

As far as I can tell, there is no distinction int he Romance languages, but in German this is the different between viel (much) and viele (many).

Similarly, little is the opposite of much, while few is the opposite of many.  Meanwhile, the opposite of both fewer and less is more; more can refer to either type of noun.

[Awaclus]

Citadels seems different to me, in that it felt like a longer kind of game. What games fill the same niche (ultra portable, works for many players)?

The Great Dalmuti.

[Watno]

Watno, Grujah:  In English the modifiers much and many apply only to collective nouns (mass nouns) and countable nouns (count nouns) respectively.  Since problems are countable, you would say "many problems."  Problem, singular, is never used as a mass noun, so even "much problem" would be wrong.  However, both "much difficulty" and "many difficulties" are allowable because difficulty, singular, is often used as a mass noun.

I thought that as well, but it somehow sounded wrong. I'll justv go with "much of a problem" next time.

[blueblimp]

Watno, Grujah:  In English the modifiers much and many apply only to collective nouns (mass nouns) and countable nouns (count nouns) respectively.  Since problems are countable, you would say "many problems."  Problem, singular, is never used as a mass noun, so even "much problem" would be wrong.  However, both "much difficulty" and "many difficulties" are allowable because difficulty, singular, is often used as a mass noun.

I'm not sure I believe that "much problem" is wrong. I'm a native English speaker and I feel like I've heard it somewhere before.

Although internet grammar is often not good, it's interesting to consult Google.
"without much problem": 10,700,000 results
"without many problems": 7,650,000 results
"without much difficulty": 5,920,000 results
"without many difficulties": 502,000 results
So at least on the internet, "without much problem" is actually the most common form by a significant margin.

In books, "without much difficulty" is a clear winner. The others barely register:
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=without+much+problem%2Cwithout+many+problems%2Cwithout+much+difficulty%2Cwithout+many+difficulties&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cwithout%20much%20problem%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwithout%20many%20problems%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwithout%20much%20difficulty%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwithout%20many%20difficulties%3B%2Cc0
If we delete "without much difficulty" though, "without much problem" wins over the rest since 1974.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=without+much+problem%2Cwithout+many+problems%2Cwithout+many+difficulties&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cwithout%20much%20problem%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwithout%20many%20problems%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwithout%20many%20difficulties%3B%2Cc0

So my guess would be that "without much difficulty" is the preferred form if you're writing, but "without much problem" is okay colloquially and it may be gradually making its way into writing too.

[Twistedarcher]

"Without" much problem sounds horrendous to me -- I'd much rather saying "without much difficulty", followed by "without many problems"

[Ozle]

Just use 'No Problemmo'

Sorted

[Kirian]

Internet grammar is wrong.

Also, the trouble with Google ngram is that the corpus isn't as large as you might like; the corpus contains exactly one instance of "without much problem."  Same for the others except "without much difficulty."

[eHalcyon]

So what kind of game is Mascarade?  I had thought it was a light filler micro game like Love Letter and Coup, but it fits more into the same (slightly heavier) niche as Citadels?

Incan Gold has been on my list for a while too, but I think it might also be a bit lighter than my preference.  Not sure.  Not sure if I ever looked into Saboteur.

The Great Dalmuti is just a climbing game.  Is there anything that really sets it apart from Big Two or President?

[Watno]

To me Mascarade feels like it expands on the fun parts of citadels (the roles) while dropping the stuff that makes it drag (building stuff).
It takes longer longer than Love Letter, about 20-30 minutes I think.
Also as said, you really need a lot more people for it than for Love Letter.

[blueblimp]

Internet grammar is wrong.

I'm more of a descriptivist, so since we're writing on the internet, I consider it okay to use the most common form found on the internet. I understand that is just an opinion, though.

Also, the trouble with Google ngram is that the corpus isn't as large as you might like; the corpus contains exactly one instance of "without much problem."  Same for the others except "without much difficulty."

I don't know if it's showing you different results or what, but for me it shows tons of examples (many pages worth) if I ask it to run the search.

[Donald X.]

"without much problem": 10,700,000 results
"without many problems": 7,650,000 results
"without much difficulty": 5,920,000 results
"without many difficulties": 502,000 results
So at least on the internet, "without much problem" is actually the most common form by a significant margin.

My google is not as generous to "without much problem," whether I click on your link or type it in myself.

"without much problem" -> 1,370,000
"without many problems" -> 7,650,000
"without much difficulty" -> 5,920,000
"without many difficulties" -> 502,000

However! "Without much problem" is actually shorthand for "without much of a problem."

"without much of a problem" -> 62,300,000

[I am, as you may know, a hardcore descriptivist, and no it isn't just an opinion.]

[Kirian]

Also, the trouble with Google ngram is that the corpus isn't as large as you might like; the corpus contains exactly one instance of "without much problem."  Same for the others except "without much difficulty."

I don't know if it's showing you different results or what, but for me it shows tons of examples (many pages worth) if I ask it to run the search.

Hmm... suddenly it does the same for me now too.  However:

My google is not as generous to "without much problem," whether I click on your link or type it in myself.

"without much problem" -> 1,370,000
"without many problems" -> 7,650,000
"without much difficulty" -> 5,920,000
"without many difficulties" -> 502,000

I get numbers exactly in line with Donald's.

However! "Without much problem" is actually shorthand for "without much of a problem."

"without much of a problem" -> 62,300,000

Also, I should have thought of that.

[WanderingWinder]

"without much problem": 10,700,000 results
"without many problems": 7,650,000 results
"without much difficulty": 5,920,000 results
"without many difficulties": 502,000 results
So at least on the internet, "without much problem" is actually the most common form by a significant margin.

My google is not as generous to "without much problem," whether I click on your link or type it in myself.

"without much problem" -> 1,370,000
"without many problems" -> 7,650,000
"without much difficulty" -> 5,920,000
"without many difficulties" -> 502,000

However! "Without much problem" is actually shorthand for "without much of a problem."

"without much of a problem" -> 62,300,000

I get
10,600,000
7,630,000
5,880,000
501,000

which isn't terribly surprising, given that google personalizes search results. Popping it into a second browser gives me the same results, whilst a third gives me results matching blueblimp's. I've really never thought 'number of google results' was a terribly accurate measure of... most anything of note, really.

[I am, as you may know, a hardcore descriptivist, and no it isn't just an opinion.]

See, now I find this interesting. Specifically, what does "no it isn't just an opinion" mean (particularly "it" and "opinion", which is a word in general I've found to not be well-defined or agreed-upon)?

[popsofctown]

Intense f.ds level nitpicking and semantics is goin down.

[Kirian]

Intense f.ds-level nitpicking and semantics is goin' down.

Related but separate adjectives require a hyphen, and elisions require an apostrophe.