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[A Drowned Kernel]

My original vote was not on a strong suspicion of her being scum, it was because she had her vote on shraeye and I was looking for an explanation.

[raerae]

My original vote was not on a strong suspicion of her being scum, it was because she had her vote on shraeye and I was looking for an explanation.

Beyond RVS?  I clearly answered that question, why didn't you unvote when your question was answered.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I was still worried about the shraeye wagon and your vote was still on it. When that discussion was going I didn't think there was any danger of raerae getting lynched. When there was I unvoted.

[yuma]

Playing the why is everyone ganging up on me/tunneling me card is an emotional ploy regardless of alignment.

It isn't always a ploy though. Perhaps people perceive it as such, but it isn't. I can tell you that I am not so full in control of my emotions that I can use them exclusively as "ploys." Sometimes my emotions come out--regardless of alignment--with no ulterior motive other than me being a human.

I do think that people calling out someone as scummy for having emotion is far and away scummier than someone being emotional. It is too hard to tell if emotions are feigned or real in this setting. And far too often I think they are real.

Notice that yuma is simultaneously attacking raerae in his surrounding posts, and in THIS post is give pps a reason to step off of his suspicion of raerae.

vote: yuma

this is absurd... I am not speaking about raerae's alignment at all in those posts--which as I am still voting for her, I still think she is scummy--but instead speaking specifically about emotional reactions and how responding negatively to them is scummy and in my opinion poor play.

To me emotional reactions have far and away been used against players, which is just silly... people are human and have emotions! They are rarely feigned or faked. And someone calling them feigned or fake is 1. scummy because it places suspicion on someone for being human and on something that can't be substantiated at all and 2. just makes the original player more emotional and becomes a distraction from the game!

I don't see how you see me as scum for calling out PPS for finding an emotion in an emotional game to be scummy... regardless of what my feelings about said player are...

[yuma]

what I see about yuma is that he's worried your comments on raerae will build to something, and is quickly trying to prevent other players from latching onto that.

What I am worried about is people putting stock in emotional tells when they lynching because of emotions has proven in the past to be unsubstantiated and led to far too many mislynches and just make people dislike the game of mafia...

[yuma]

This push/pull is a classic mafia tactic, and can be used regardless of raerae's alignment.  I've definitely used it before as a way to give myself an out if popular opinion goes against my case on a towny.

But I did come at this from the perspective of being suspicious of raerae and looking for her partners.  So I think this connection is also of significance.

And now you have changed your mind about what my posts mean now that PPS has commented?

First you say that I am worried that PPS will encourage others to vote for the very player I am voting for...

But now you are saying that I am worried that I won't have a way to get off the wagon?

I don't really understand what you think about me at all at this point... Can you clarify because these posts in succession don't make sense next to each other to me...

[pingpongsam]

A wagon formed very quickly on a premise that I didn't find particularly sound. I didn't want a mislynch so I unvoted.

You had a vote on raerae which means you suspected she was scum. Why then does it matter what the premise is?

Begging the question. Votes do not necessitate suspicion of scum.

[yuma]

I meant I agree with willingness to lynch raerae, and non willingness to lynch yuma, I thin Yuma is too helpful to lynch day 1

I don't believe any person is "too helpful" to lynch day 1.

I agree with this premise and don't understand it for me or for others. Yes there are certain people that I think require an extra level of scumminess to lynch (but in general that is because I feel that I can read them better on later days, not helpfulness) but even that isn't very much. I do think that there is some merit to being a little cautious when considering lynching your highest posters because a game that lags is a game that favors scum, but that should be slight an apply to a handful of people... not just me.

But more importantly I fear that it gives people an opportunity to avoid taking a solid stand on me.... For example look at what a handful of people said: "I won't be lynching yuma because he shouldn't be lynched day1." Not... I think yuma is town or I think yuma is scum.

[Robz888]

I think yuma is town, like a lot. But I don't know if I can explain this feeling with like words.

[Robz888]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

[Robz888]

Everyone join. Do it now.

[mcmcsalot]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

why random lynch over raerae?

[yuma]

A wagon formed very quickly on a premise that I didn't find particularly sound. I didn't want a mislynch so I unvoted.

I guess I find this statement somewhat strange partially because I am the one who came up with the premise and I find it to be sound... but it is certainly more sound than your vote on her in the first place.

What makes it unsound would you say?

[Axxle]

Vote: scotty
It's not too random, he hasn't said anything accept "null" "claiming is bad" and "lets hop on raerae and say the incorrect lynch count."

I'd hammer raerae, she reads to me as angry, useless town, I'd rather her not get to Lylo.

[yuma]

But ultimately his method is impartial and non-committal avoiding getting cornered into any solid position.

WHAT? Impartial I try to be... but non-committal? No having a solid position? It is obviously apparent that you have only played one game with me--and apparently payed no attention to my play style that game--for you to have formed this meta on me...

[Axxle]

A wagon formed very quickly on a premise that I didn't find particularly sound. I didn't want a mislynch so I unvoted.

I guess I find this statement somewhat strange partially because I am the one who came up with the premise and I find it to be sound... but it is certainly more sound than your vote on her in the first place.

What makes it unsound would you say?

It's called second guessing yourself.

[yuma]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

Robz the last time you proposed a random lynch like this we were scum together...

So for me to join you on this lynch in such a random way you are either going to have to show me why I should vote for scotty or show me why I should believe you are town and aren't starting up another random wagon as scum on a townie like in DW2

[scott_pilgrim]

This:

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

why random lynch over raerae?

I'm a lot more okay with Axxle's vote, because he at least gives some reasons why I would be a good lynch.  But the only reason a random lynch makes sense as town is if you have null reads on everyone (or maybe more generally, you have equally scummy reads on a group of people, so you pick whom you vote randomly from that group).  Of course if you're scum, random lynch makes a lot of sense, because if you can't guess PR's, you might as well just pick randomly among those who are known town.  OTOH, if you're just going for a lynch, raerae was right there at L-2 (I think it's L-3 now), so for scum!you to prefer my lynch to hers would imply she is also scum (unless for some reason you think I have a PR and she doesn't).  I also find it odd how readily Axxle jumped in with that, but again, he at least gave some reasons.

Of course that's all speculation, I'm not saying that if you're scum raerae is definitely scum.  It's also possible that you would indirectly use your vote for me as a way of trying to get people to conclude in the way I just did that raerae is scum, when she is actually town, though that would be a really weird way of doing that.  So anyway, I think random voting in general like that without any explanation is scummy, but the fact that you did it on someone that I know is town is enough to make me vote you.

vote: Robz

Also another possibility I just thought of, Robz and raerae are masons.  I still don't really feel like that justifies a random vote though.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.12:

raerae (3): yuma, AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi
yuma (1): shraeye
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
mail-mi (1): A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, Robz888, Axxle
Eevee (1): pingpongsam
Robz888 (1): scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (1): mcmcsalot

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[Axxle]

I don't see robz as doing anything other than "trying to get a rise out of people" like he did earlier in the game.  Pretty null to me.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I was still worried about the shraeye wagon and your vote was still on it. When that discussion was going I didn't think there was any danger of raerae getting lynched. When there was I unvoted.

So we've got a pretty decent wagon on Shraeye, but it seems to have a pretty flimsy basis to me. Axxle originally voted because Shraeye's posts were supposedly just fluff, which isn't isn't that unusual at the beginning of the game, then confirmed it because Shraeye gave a newbie a little bit of a hard time. Then mail-mi and yuma basically jumped on the wagon without a contribution to the discussion beyond "yeah, what Axxle said!" And raerae's vote is a RVS holdover (I'm assuming that was RVS), so I'm just gonna put my vote on her until she changes hers or justifies it.

Vote: raerae

Wait, wait, wait...you're trying to force me to change an RVS vote to...what?  Do we have an actual case on anybody right now?  Not that I've seen so exactly what is my incentive to change my vote?  Just cuz you say so?  raerae don't play that game, sweetie.

So your vote was to pressure raerae into changing her vote... why? You thought everyone's vote was nonsense (Axxle, mail-mi, yuma, raerae) and then vote for raerae for even less of a reason as everyone else did for shraeye. Then you back off because you're not impressed with anyone's reasons for voting for raerae. This is my impression of it.

[Robz888]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

Robz the last time you proposed a random lynch like this we were scum together...

So for me to join you on this lynch in such a random way you are either going to have to show me why I should vote for scotty or show me why I should believe you are town and aren't starting up another random wagon as scum on a townie like in DW2

Yeah, that's fair. I don't really have a reason to go with Scotty though... he's just a true null person.

I do find his OMGUS interesting though.

[A Drowned Kernel]

What makes it unsound would you say?

I guess I would say your vote was understandable from the position that her "trap" was automatically scummy, but it never seemed to me like something that a town wouldn't do. I was (and am) more concerned with the fact that people jumped on the wagon so quickly (or at least I got that impression, it all happened in between two log-ins for me), and my unvote was certainly an emotional response to what I thought was an imminent lynching and what was quite possibly a mislynch. I realize my original vote was a somewhat clumsy tactic but it was based on what was going on in the game at the time.

@ FTTW My pressure vote on raerae was for a similar reason for my quick unvote later, I disliked that a wagon was forming quickly and for reasons that I thought weren't very justified. I didn't like people who were honestly voting for shraeye's reasons, but raerae wasn't honestly voting for him, she was sitting on a RVS vote, so I decided to vote for her and explicitly say I was doing it to get a response for her in the post that she quotes. Maybe using my vote as a pressure tactic wasn't the smartest move but it's what I did, and then when an honest wagon formed on her I pulled it.

[Robz888]

I'm also okay with raerae getting lynched. Shraeye or PPS would be okay, too.

[AndrewisFTTW]

What makes it unsound would you say?

I guess I would say your vote was understandable from the position that her "trap" was automatically scummy, but it never seemed to me like something that a town wouldn't do. I was (and am) more concerned with the fact that people jumped on the wagon so quickly (or at least I got that impression, it all happened in between two log-ins for me), and my unvote was certainly an emotional response to what I thought was an imminent lynching and what was quite possibly a mislynch. I realize my original vote was a somewhat clumsy tactic but it was based on what was going on in the game at the time.

@ FTTW My pressure vote on raerae was for a similar reason for my quick unvote later, I disliked that a wagon was forming quickly and for reasons that I thought weren't very justified. I didn't like people who were honestly voting for shraeye's reasons, but raerae wasn't honestly voting for him, she was sitting on a RVS vote, so I decided to vote for her and explicitly say I was doing it to get a response for her in the post that she quotes. Maybe using my vote as a pressure tactic wasn't the smartest move but it's what I did, and then when an honest wagon formed on her I pulled it.

Cool thanks. One more thing:

My best scum bet right now is mail-mi, who just sort of jumped on not one but two wagons as soon as they got started.

Vote: mail-mi

Just FYI mail-mi only voted for raerae after you and Axxle unvoted.