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26
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 23, 2017, 12:24:42 am »
P.S: If people think that Adam's list is more correct than mine, don't forget that his list is like 9 months newer. So it is just obvious that especially Empire cards are probably better ranked.

I haven't yet compared your two lists together, but I would bet that the top 25% and bottom 25% of both your lists are very similar. I think the middle 50% would show wide differences. It truly is hard to justify that Remodel is better than Poacher, or vice versa. But if they were both in the same tier, it's a lot easier to justify. This is especially true with comparing a card that is near the upper 75th percentile of the list with another that is near the 50th percentile of the list.

The biggest problem with Adam's list is that the participants were offered too many options to rate a card. 1-10. I would only really offer 3 well-defined options, and separate them on percentages voted for each category. If Remodel is deemed A by 25% of the community, and B by 75% of the community, it would probably end up with a B+ rating.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 23, 2017, 12:14:18 am »
I like ehunt's approach and would like to see it updated. I like the idea of "key" card for the following reason: these are the cards you look for first around which to build your deck. Cost/benefit puts the focus on the wrong place: on the turn to turn buying decision at the expense of the overarching strategy decision.

Yeah, ehunt's method and mine would actually be very similar. At least as far as letter rantings go. Basically it would assign cards into one of 3 groups, A, B, and C, with a select few power cards that would qualify for an S tier. These are the strong outliers. With enough poll participants, it could even be separated into A, A-, B+, etc, as many cards would be voted as both A and B if they are on the cusp of both.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 23, 2017, 12:09:54 am »
As you can see, according my criteria for each tier, you have far too many "S" cards.
This is reality-defying. It could be that half the cards were "S" cards; the power-level curve can look like anything. You can't simultaneously say "these are cards you want 95% of the time" and "it's 3-7% of the cards." Combined they are data you don't have, that you are trying to find even.

Huh? I could want Chapel 95% of the time. But if Masquerade were in the kingdom, I may choose it instead of Chapel, making up the 5% that I don't want Chapel in my deck. That doesn't take away, nor even interact with the 3-7% that are "S" cards. It just means that even for an "S" card, there may be a better option, which is probably taken by another "S" card. Plus, 95% was just an arbitrary number; something to get discussion going. It could be even higher. 98%? 99%?

By the way, I love the game.

29
Introductions / Back from a long hiatus
« on: September 22, 2017, 07:41:02 pm »
I started playing Dominion back when if first came out. 2008? I was hooked. Purchased Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Alchemy, and Hinterlands as they each came out. Then, life happened. Three boys. Lots of sports. My gaming group moved away.

Anyway, I'm back for more Dominion fun. Trying to learn all the new cards that have been released since my absence. Love events and landmarks. Anxiously awaiting for Nocturne.

30
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 07:26:47 pm »
Cellar - C
Chapel - S
Moat - B
Harbinger - B
Merchant - B
Vassal - C
Village - A
Workshop - B
Bureaucrat - D
Gardens - D
Militia - A
Moneylender - A
Poacher - B
Remodel - B
Smithy - A
Throne Room – S
Bandit - B
Council Room - B
Festival - A
Laboratory - A
Library - B
Market - B
Mine - D
Sentry - S
Witch - S
Artisan - S

Thanks. As you can see, according my criteria for each tier, you have far too many "S" cards. "S" should be saved for only the best of the best. This is what I need help with. Creating a set of criteria that produces an even distribution for A, B, and C, with few cards ever reaching the "S" tier.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 06:32:24 pm »
These are the tier ranking qualifiers I came up. I would like some critique. Also the Dominion: Base cards as I would order them according to the qualifiers.

S – This card is good in 95% of decks. This card makes 95% of decks better. This card synergizes well with most other cards. This card cannot be ignored when in any given kingdom. If my opponent gets this card and I don’t, there is a good chance he will win. If I get this card and my opponent doesn’t, there is a good chance I will win. This card is the focal point of a major strategy.

A – This card is good in 75% or more of decks. This card makes 95% of decks better. This card synergizes well with most other cards. This card should not be ignored when in any given kingdom. If my opponent gets this card, and I don’t, he is likely to win, but other strategies may be just as good. This card can be a focal point of a major strategy OR this card is a good support card for major strategy.

B – This card is good in 50% or more of decks. This card makes 75% of decks better. This card synergizes well with about 50% of other cards. This card can be ignored when in any given kingdom. If my opponent gets this card, and I don’t, the outcome is still based on who plays better and not on card interaction.  This card is rarely a focal point of a major strategy, but often a good support card for a major strategy.

C – This card is good in less than 50% of decks. This card makes 50% or decks better. It is difficult at times to get good use from this card. This card often is ignored when in any given kingdom. If my opponent gets this card, and I don’t, the outcome is still based on who plays better and not on card interaction. This card is never a focal point of a major strategy, and rarely a good support card. However, this card may have amazing synergy with another, specific card.

Celler - B
Chapel - S
Moat - B
Harbinger - C
Merchant - B
Vassal - C
Village - B
Workshop - C
Bureaucrat - B
Gardens - C
Militia - A
Moneylender - B
Poacher - A
Remodel - B
Smithy - A
Throne Room – A
Bandit - B
Council Room - A
Festival - B
Laboratory - A
Library - C
Market - A
Mine - C
Sentry - A
Witch - S
Artisan - B

32
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 06:26:51 pm »
I don't understand how that would be better. The lists are not for telling you what you should buy if you have X coins in hand. You should buy what is best for your deck. If you need a Counting House, come and buy one. There is Chapel, better get all of them if it is the best card in Dominion. It doesn't tell you how many of each card you should get and in which order. That is not the purpose. It's just how impactful and relevant those cards are on the board. I think you are approaching those lists incorrectly.

Btw, I posted the rest of this year's list in the forum and it is on the wiki as well.

I never implied that it would tell you which card to buy. It would only give an indication of the relative power and usefulness of the card. Nor did I imply that it would mean to purchase all ten Chapels because it is a good card. My poor wording probably led to your misunderstanding.

What I would like, is a quick system where a player such as me, who has no experience with Empires, Cornucopia, Guilds, or Dark Ages, can evaluate quickly the given cards in a kingdom and what the community thinks of their usefulness. Is Chariot Race good in most decks? I don't have the foggiest idea. I think this idea could help out those casual players as well.

Of course it will have no usefulness for those experienced competitive players. But then again, neither do the Qvist rankings or Adam's rankings.

So as a returning player to Dominion, this is what I would like to see.

And Qvist, truly I like your ranking system. It is very informative. Sorry if I came across as completely dismissive to it.

33
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 06:15:30 pm »
This is a terrible idea, just drop it altogether. Ratio of cost to effectiveness doesn't help anyone play any board better. We have Qvist rankings and now Adam rankings, do we need a third list? Just take Adam's rankings and tier those.

Thanks for your opinion. I tend to think that the Adam rankings are probably a little more accurate than the Qvist rankings, but the problem that keeps coming back is that it is based on 1 person's assessment of each individual card, as opposed to a community poll. The Qvist rankings can be a better indication of community assessment IF a sample size were larger and ranking guidelines were given OR if the poll was only given to a select few who are considered the "best" at the game. This would alleviate the high standard deviations that some cards received.

I think I will still try to create a poll. I will probably put it on boardgamegeek, just because the polling system is much more advanced on that site than this site. Am I allowed to create a thread with a link to that site? If there is poor turnout or as much kickback there as here, I can eventually scrap the whole concept.

34
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 12:58:28 pm »
xkcd

I understand what you're getting at. But most competitive games, esports, etc. are using this type of system to rank power levels. I don't find it crazy that Dominion could follow suit. It's already tried and true in other venues.

But the thing is Dominion doesn't have a metagame the same way CCGs do.  Everything is dependent on what you're actually given.  Sure, Mountebank might be rated higher than Witch, but it doesn't matter if they're not both in the Kingdom.  We're never going to see something like "well I'll only ever put Mountebank in my deck, never Witch" because of the nature of the game.

But it doesn't matter. Both would be probably be "A" tier cards. Then it's comparing the two within the other kingdom cards. But what about Junk Dealer compared to Festival? Both will probably have different tiers. Now the comparison would be valid. I also disagree that their is no META game in Dominion. Most Effective Tactic Available does show up in this game. Knowing Ill Gotten Gains is a strong META card, and Rabble not as much is part of Dominion's overall META. Whether they show up together in a kingdom or not, it is still worth while to know relative power.

35
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 12:51:39 pm »
I can tell you the same thing that I told Adam and many other people. I am not sure why a broader rating/ranking system is better than a more in depth one. You would lose so much info.
Also btw, I allow comparing a $2 card to a $4 card. Many just don't do that as it is both tedious and way less relevant. I have a list for all the cards, I just didn't post it yet because I did got burned out and had another project going on. You could just take all the lists and put 80%+ cards in tier 1, 60-80% cards in tier 2, ... 0-20% in tier 5 and done. That is the big upside of using percentages and doing it the way I do it.

Thanks for responding Qvist. I have watched all your YouTube videos on your 2016 ranking (you never completed the 5-cost or 6+cost cards). Your ranking system does offer a lot of good information. However, a few statistical items arise in your system of ranking. Firstly, the sample size is relatively small to get a truly representation of what the community thinks. With your system is would be tough to get a truly representative rank. Those that take your poll need to be very familiar with every card in the game and make non-arbitrary comparisons. The causal player with less understanding of each card will greatly skew your results. Second, there's bound to be some very high standard deviations for given cards because it is a mix of highly competitive and casual players, which would make too hard to put any credit in their ranking.

If I have a kingdom with Hamlet (ranked 5th for two cost cards), Wishing Well (ranked 26 for three cost cards), and Trader (ranked 54 for four cost cards), and have 4 coins in hand, which would be my best cost to benefit ratio? Hamlet would probably be "A" tier, Wishing Well "B" tier, and Trader "C" tier. Would I want to overpay for Hamlet? Overpay for Wishing Well? Or get a Trader? Obviously it may depend on the kingdom, but Hamlet may be the best option overall. It is tough to make those comparisons with such a stringent ranking system and not knowing where the 2-costers rank according to the higher costing other cards.

A 4 tier system would help alleviate the confusion.

36
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 12:02:42 pm »


I understand what you're getting at. But most competitive games, esports, etc. are using this type of system to rank power levels. I don't find it crazy that Dominion could follow suit. It's already tried and true in other venues.

37
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 11:56:39 am »
I don't think "cost to effect" is a very good system for rating differently priced cards. What does it even mean? Is a $4 as good as a $2 in this system if it gives the benefit of 2 $2? If we do it like that, I can tell you right now that almost all $2s will be ranked C. Effect does not scale linearly with price.

You are correct. I would foresee that a lot of lower cost cards do indeed fall into the "C" category. In games like this, benefit should be increasing at a slightly faster rate than cost. This is what makes the higher costing cards worth it to spend coins on. However, I also foresee than many $2 cards do indeed fall in the "B" and "A" categories, with Chapel probably even falling into the "S" category.

38
Dominion General Discussion / Need Help Developing a Ranking System
« on: September 22, 2017, 11:21:31 am »
I would like to put together a project that creates a tiered list of all the Dominion kingdom cards. This would be different than anything done in the past when considering card ranking.

It would be similar to list created by ehunt found here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13822.0, but with key difference. In ehunt’s list, he focused on “key cards”. I would rather have a focus more on the perceived cost to benefit ratio.

A few of problems with ehunt’s list. First, it was created in August, 2015, so it doesn’t incorporate Adventures, Empires, the new cards added to Dominion: Base and Intrigue, a couple of Promos, nor the soon to be released Nocturne set. Second, it was created by one user, and adjusted by responses made in that specific thread, so it didn’t incorporate a lot of community input. Third, it has three of the tiers in the common tiered system for ranking, but it is missing the crucial “S” tier.

This would also offer better card power understanding than currently found in the Qvist ranking system found here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16373.0. Although the Qvist ranking system is very thorough and informative, it too is missing some key aspects.

First, it does compare cards to each other that are of the same cost, but has no way of comparing cards to each other if they have different costs. So a Remodel can be ranked against Smithy, both of which are 4 cost cards, but cannot be ranked against Cellar, which is a 2 cost card. Second, it is very arbitrary. Is Smithy actually a better card overall than Remodel, or Poacher, or some other 4 cost card. In a recent article written by Adam Horton found here: http://adamhorton.com/flog/?p=538, his view of the card ranks differed by around 30% from the communities ranking. His point was that “A bunch of different people rated Dominion cards using whatever criteria they felt was appropriate.” I agree; this is a problem. Third, it is very hard to maintain. With each new expansion, a whole new poll needs to be completed incorporating new cards. This is both time consuming and tedious.

I would like to take a different approach than both ehunt’s and Qvist’s approach. I would like to create a tiered system that has 4 tiers. Each card would be assigned a tier, as voted on by the community. The 4 tiers would include an “S” tier, an “A” tier, a “B”, tier and a “C” tier.

The “S” tier would include those cards that are clearly overpowered. The ones whose cost to benefit ratio is very good. It would probably include ~3-7% of the cards overall. These would be the cards that cannot be ignored in any given kingdom. A prime example would be Chapel.

The “A” tier would be those cards that offer better than average cost to benefit ratio. It would probably consist of the upper 30% of total cards. Cards that fit well in most decks and synergize with many cards. I would rate Sentry as an “A” tier card.

The “B” tier would include those cards whose cost to benefit ratio of pretty accurate. It would probably consist of the middle 30% of total cards. Those cards that can fit well in a lot of decks, but may not be the main players all the time. They synergize well with some cards, but fall flat with others. Festival would be a prime example in my opinion.

The “C” tier would include those cards that are underperformers. It would probably include the bottom 30% of total cards. Those cards that may well synergize really well some few specific cards, but otherwise can usually be ignored in most kingdoms. Scout would easily fit in this category.

What I need is help defining the 4 groups. What is the wording to use in each of the four groups to most represent the cards found within each group? After the groups are defined, I would like to create a poll that the community can participate in that gives each card a tier designation. If we have enough participants, the cards can even be given a (-) or (+) to the tier they belong to.

39
It's a little frustrating as I would like to play random games incorporating only one set.

If you create a table and choose the kingdom cards, there are checkboxes next to each expansion. That allows you to create random kingdoms from only the expansions you have selected.

This is exactly what I was looking for. I was trying to go the "familiar cards" tab and it just wasn't working out. Thanks!!!

40
Found a glitch. I can't change the "you're allowing (number) familiar cards". I select Intrigue only, yet it always defaults to 36 familiar cards, therefore incorporating base set cards as well. Same happens with each expansion by itself. Always defaults to 36, except for the base set alone.

It's a little frustrating as I would like to play random games incorporating only one set.

41
Dominion Articles / Re: Poacher
« on: September 19, 2017, 07:39:12 pm »
Ditch the thing about Peddler Variants because that has nothing much to do with Poacher, include Stonemason and Magpie and other cards like that as quick pile emptiers, and I don't see the reason to include what the community thinks a stock Peddler variant would cost. In all honesty, Poacher is hard to write an article on. There's really not much to say.

I disagree. I like the list of Peddler variants as it shows that many of the Poacher tactics would apply equally well to other, similar cards. But I do agree that stock variant cost is a fun fact, but probably has no bearing on a Poacher strategy article.

42
Dominion Articles / Re: key cards in Dominion: a report card.
« on: September 13, 2017, 06:43:48 pm »
Reviving this thread for empires.

To me it seems like
A = Always consider
B = Depends on the Board
C = Situational, like specific Combos

Of course it may not be worth putting them on a hierarchy. It's hard to say whether "may as well" cards (like Vagrant and Pearl Diver) are better or worse than situationally strong but often useless cards.

I wish the OP put in an "S" tier. Cards that will always be "A" tier no matter what and will never hurt the deck. I am not familiar with all the cards throughout all the expansions, but cards like Chapel or Fishing Village would probably fall into this category.

43
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Strategy Blog Returns!
« on: September 12, 2017, 10:39:19 pm »
I know I'm new here, but I've been looking on YouTube for strategies on specific cards. How they work best, how to get maximum use from them, what types of cards they combo with, as well as specific interactions with other cards. Not much exists, especially for expansions.

A pairing of the blog and YouTube could help a 101 type article. Being able to read a write up and then a link to a YouTube video would help a lot.

44
Dominion General Discussion / Re: When did you start playing?
« on: September 12, 2017, 06:37:57 pm »
I pre-ordered Dominion when it first started making news on BGG in 2008. Played the hard copies of it, Intrigue, Seaside, and Prosperity regularly with my gaming buddies until they all moved away. Played fairly often on BSW and iso, even (and still have) Androminion. Then took a long hiatus as kids and family events took all my time. Just now getting back into it. My kids are now old enough to play it and enjoy it, though still a little young to understand all the nuances.

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Dominion General Discussion / Re: Which Removed Cards Do You Use IRL?
« on: September 12, 2017, 01:33:41 am »
Great Hall was always a good acquisition near end game with an extra buy and three coins left. I still keep it in.

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