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1126

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 03:30:17 pm »

Better?

1127

Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Treasure Chest Compilation - Art/Name Suggestions

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:43:35 pm »

I could really use some art suggestions so I could finalize this.

1128

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:32:08 pm »

Okay, I'm a little confused on what you are trying to prove. I think we can both agree that this isn't strictly worse, but it could be worse. And yes, at the start of your next turn: 1 Card, +2 Actions is probably better than village.

By your weird logic Fishing Village would be better than Bazaar as it is a Bazaar next turn and something now. Obviously this is preposterous.
By your logic Swamp Hag would be WORSE if it provided the 3 coins right now because IT IS A TRIPLE PEDDLER NEXT TURN !!!.

This is not a matter of opinion. A delayed effect is simply worse than the immediate effect. I want my stuff now, not next year when I am dead or next turn when the game might be already over.

Hmm, my logic could be wrong. Whether or not it was, (which it could easily be), the conclusion was right. This is probably a fine card for 3, if on the weaker side. I suggest you re-read the whole thread.

Lab is better than Caravan and Caravan is better than a card which says "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards +1 Action. That's not my opinion but hyperobvious and reflected by the cost of Caravan and Lab.
Same with Market Square and Dingy. The former beats the latter in every respect (no delay, plus the Reaction).

Of course there are rare circumstances in which you might prefer delaying. Suppose there is an Action card which provides 4 coins. Obviously it is better than Merchant Ship but in a particular situation in which you have 6 Coins and no extra buy you would prefer playing a Merchant Ship over the hypothetical "+4 Coins".
The cases in which this happens are trivial compared to the number of cases in which the immediate 4 Coins are far better. Oh, and obviously such a card would probably be balanced around 6$.

Wait, a lab next turn is 'obviously' better than a terminal now-lab+lost village next turn? I don't think that's so obviously true.

Dingy is a terminal-next turn lab+market square. This is, again, not obviously that much worse than a market square now. In games with sufficient actions but no trashing, I might prefer dingy to make sure my engine can go off again next turn.

You are aware that Dingy is *not* a delayed market square, right? A delayed market square would be: 'at the start of your next turn: +1 Buy'. That's a delayed market square.

Yeah, it is dead card now and a Market Square sans reaction next turn, making it worse in every way than a Market Square
Surely I don't have to explain to an economist that you gotta discount the future, especially in a game which runs around 15-30 turns, do I?

IT"S NOT A MARKET SQUARE NEXT TURN, IT'S A LOST CITY + MARKET SQUARE

sorry for the caps, just trying to make a point.

Yep and it is a dead card this turn.
Anything non-terminal that is dead this turn and does the stuff which card XYZ does on turn 1 instead on turn 2 is worse than card XYZ.

By your weird logic Fishing Village is better than Bazaar. It is a Bazaar next turn which makes it in your opinion better than Bazaar but instead of being a deed card it even does something this turn. Hell, Fishing Village should cost 6!

No it's not. You can't just say that. Didn't you read what LFN posted?

Whether an effect is better now or at the start of your next turn depends on what the effect is, and also on the situation. I believe that most effects are better if you get them now. Terminal draw is often better later because it doesn't draw cards dead. Some simulations were done for Adventures which show that [+3 Cards next turn]-BM slightly edges out Smithy-BM. That doesn't mean that it's always better than Smithy, but certainly situations exist where it is.

Effects that want a larger hand size (like Warehouse/Dungeon) are better now if you have a good way to non-terminally increase your hand size, but are better at the start of your next turn otherwise.

I can understand Dinghy being weak, rinworks said it was.

1129

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:28:16 pm »

Okay, I'm a little confused on what you are trying to prove. I think we can both agree that this isn't strictly worse, but it could be worse. And yes, at the start of your next turn: 1 Card, +2 Actions is probably better than village.

By your weird logic Fishing Village would be better than Bazaar as it is a Bazaar next turn and something now. Obviously this is preposterous.
By your logic Swamp Hag would be WORSE if it provided the 3 coins right now because IT IS A TRIPLE PEDDLER NEXT TURN !!!.

This is not a matter of opinion. A delayed effect is simply worse than the immediate effect. I want my stuff now, not next year when I am dead or next turn when the game might be already over.

Hmm, my logic could be wrong. Whether or not it was, (which it could easily be), the conclusion was right. This is probably a fine card for 3, if on the weaker side. I suggest you re-read the whole thread.

Lab is better than Caravan and Caravan is better than a card which says "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards +1 Action. That's not my opinion but hyperobvious and reflected by the cost of Caravan and Lab.
Same with Market Square and Dingy. The former beats the latter in every respect (no delay, plus the Reaction).

Of course there are rare circumstances in which you might prefer delaying. Suppose there is an Action card which provides 4 coins. Obviously it is better than Merchant Ship but in a particular situation in which you have 6 Coins and no extra buy you would prefer playing a Merchant Ship over the hypothetical "+4 Coins".
The cases in which this happens are trivial compared to the number of cases in which the immediate 4 Coins are far better. Oh, and obviously such a card would probably be balanced around 6$.

Wait, a lab next turn is 'obviously' better than a terminal now-lab+lost village next turn? I don't think that's so obviously true.

Dingy is a terminal-next turn lab+market square. This is, again, not obviously that much worse than a market square now. In games with sufficient actions but no trashing, I might prefer dingy to make sure my engine can go off again next turn.

You are aware that Dingy is *not* a delayed market square, right? A delayed market square would be: 'at the start of your next turn: +1 Buy'. That's a delayed market square.

Yeah, it is dead card now and a Market Square sans reaction next turn, making it worse in every way than a Market Square
Surely I don't have to explain to an economist that you gotta discount the future, especially in a game which runs around 15-30 turns, do I?

IT"S NOT A MARKET SQUARE NEXT TURN, IT'S A LOST CITY + MARKET SQUARE

sorry for the caps, just trying to make a point.

1130

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Is there a thread were you can find all Dominion Fan Cards?

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:02:50 pm »

Is there a thread were you can find all Dominion fan cards? You can find all the real Dominion cards in quite a few places. With so many cool ideas, it seems like there should be.

I currently have about 250 cards in my collection. I'm working on mocking them all up to be the same, then I'll post the album. I also wanted to start a fan-card wiki, but I didn't have the skills for that so I ditched the idea.

EDIT: You can just search the forum for words like Image and see all that comes up.

Very excited to see your finished work Theta   It would be cool if you were willing to make it into a file that could be used for Tabletop Simulator too if you're down

Yes.

I'm starting with the Mini-Set as you may have seen, and when that is done I'll redo Adversity and then Ben's Cards. They will all have TS templates.

1131

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:45:21 am »

Okay, I'm a little confused on what you are trying to prove. I think we can both agree that this isn't strictly worse, but it could be worse. And yes, at the start of your next turn: 1 Card, +2 Actions is probably better than village.

By your weird logic Fishing Village would be better than Bazaar as it is a Bazaar next turn and something now. Obviously this is preposterous.
By your logic Swamp Hag would be WORSE if it provided the 3 coins right now because IT IS A TRIPLE PEDDLER NEXT TURN !!!.

This is not a matter of opinion. A delayed effect is simply worse than the immediate effect. I want my stuff now, not next year when I am dead or next turn when the game might be already over.

Hmm, my logic could be wrong. Whether or not it was, (which it could easily be), the conclusion was right. This is probably a fine card for 3, if on the weaker side. I suggest you re-read the whole thread.

1132

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:36:15 am »

I think I might be winning the Necro Wars:

This has to cost 2 as it is strictly weaker than Market Square.

No it's not. Next turn it's a super-lost-city. Remember that duration effects on your next turn have a +1 Card +1 Action built in. That's why caravan is considered a lab variant.

Yes it is. Anything now is better than anything latter.
This why a delayed Lab like Caravan costs 4 instead of 5 and why a delayed Peddler (with a bonus!) like Caravan Guard costs 3 instead of 4.

By your logic "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards" is superstrong as it is a Double Lab next turn, ignoring that now it is a dead card and worse than Moat sans reaction.
Your card is a delayed Market Square sans reaction so it is worse in every aspect. Now if it provided something on the current turn it would be a different thing.

No, next turn it's a Lost City AND a Market Square.

You are right, a delayed Market Square would be +1 Card, +1 Action and the +1 Buy in the next turn.
Your card is even worse than that as it doesn't just postpone the extra buy but even the cantrip; in the current turn it is dead and you have a much harder time playing Dinghies consistenly than with Market Square.

By your logic At the start of your next turn: +1 Card, +2 Actions would be far better than Village as it is TWO VILLAGES AND A LAB next turn, again ignoring that it is a dead card in the current turn.

If by now you still don't see that anything latter is strictly worse than anything now I cannot help you.

Okay, I'm a little confused on what you are trying to prove. I think we can both agree that this isn't strictly worse, but it could be worse. And yes, at the start of your next turn: 1 Card, +2 Actions is probably better than village. I think tactician demonstrates pretty clearly that even if it's horrible now, being good later can make it up. Also, I was going off of rinworks' quote here:

I revised Dinghy to only offering +1 Card, +1 Action on the next turn.  This turned out to be too weak at the $4-cost level, as, using Caravan as the point of comparison, the extra second-turn Village effect was not nearly enough compensation for the loss of first-turn cantripness.  Mostly this is because it's hard to predict if you'll need the extra action on the next turn or not.  At a cost of $3, it felt better, but it still feels weak and makes me wonder if my original version was really that overpowered at $4.  However, I think I'll leave it the way it is.

That's why I added the +Buy, to give it a slight buff.

1133

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:26:13 am »

I think I might be winning the Necro Wars:

This has to cost 2 as it is strictly weaker than Market Square.

No it's not. Next turn it's a super-lost-city. Remember that duration effects on your next turn have a +1 Card +1 Action built in. That's why caravan is considered a lab variant.

Yes it is. Anything now is better than anything latter.
This why a delayed Lab like Caravan costs 4 instead of 5 and why a delayed Peddler (with a bonus!) like Caravan Guard costs 3 instead of 4.

By your logic "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards" is superstrong as it is a Double Lab next turn, ignoring that now it is a dead card and worse than Moat sans reaction.
Your card is a delayed Market Square sans reaction so it is worse in every aspect. Now if it provided something on the current turn it would be a different thing.

No, next turn it's a Lost City AND a Market Square.

1134

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:08:42 am »

I think I might be winning the Necro Wars:

This has to cost 2 as it is strictly weaker than Market Square.

No it's not. Next turn it's a super-lost-city. Remember that duration effects on your next turn have a +1 Card +1 Action built in. That's why caravan is considered a lab variant.

1135

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:58:15 am »

I think I might be winning the Necro Wars:

1136

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Is there a thread were you can find all Dominion Fan Cards?

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:50:37 am »

Is there a thread were you can find all Dominion fan cards? You can find all the real Dominion cards in quite a few places. With so many cool ideas, it seems like there should be.

I currently have about 250 cards in my collection. I'm working on mocking them all up to be the same, then I'll post the album. I also wanted to start a fan-card wiki, but I didn't have the skills for that so I ditched the idea.

EDIT: You can just search the forum for words like Image and see all that comes up.

1137

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Coins -> VP tokens

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:42:45 am »

I believe this encounters the problem of not wanting you to end the game. If your spending all your money on VP, and then if your not buying anything to discard your delusions, then how will the game end?

The coin-VP ratio has to be low enough to make this sometimes worthwhile and high enough to prevent you from not greening at all.

So? It's still encourages you not to end the game. It even punishes you for buying cards and not using it's ability. Monument, plunder, and bishop all give you money. This takes away your money and makes it hard for you to end the game.

1138

Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Mock-ups 2.0

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:36:29 am »

FYI: There's an (IMO) improved version of Barge here.

Thanks. I don't plan to mock it up though, this is only for the winning cards, with a few other things.

1139

Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Treasure Chest Compilation Thread

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:20:58 am »

I just now noticed you added some of my art to this.

1140

Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Treasure Chest Compilation - Art/Name Suggestions

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:02:10 am »

@Theta- The art for Brick Road is from Settlers of Catan, right?

Yes.

What kind of art should I use for Odessy? Like some sailing boats or what?

I'd go with some ships (maybe Greek ships, just to be more interesting) sailing along the ocean. Something like a combo between Explorer and Expedition.

Ask and ye shall receive!


Now for Recruit.

Nice art, as usual, Theta, but I don't get the card. Does it help your opponent?

No it helps you. They move your tokens to a pile. It's possible I got some wording wrong, let me double check.

1141

Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Treasure Chest Compilation - Art/Name Suggestions

« on: September 08, 2016, 07:57:20 am »

@Theta- The art for Brick Road is from Settlers of Catan, right?

Yes.

What kind of art should I use for Odessy? Like some sailing boats or what?

I'd go with some ships (maybe Greek ships, just to be more interesting) sailing along the ocean. Something like a combo between Explorer and Expedition.

Ask and ye shall receive!


Now for Recruit.

1142

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Coins -> VP tokens

« on: September 08, 2016, 07:03:02 am »

I believe this encounters the problem of not wanting you to end the game. If your spending all your money on VP, and then if your not buying anything to discard your delusions, then how will the game end?

1143

Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Treasure Chest Compilation - Art/Name Suggestions

« on: September 07, 2016, 08:05:54 pm »

@Theta- The art for Brick Road is from Settlers of Catan, right?

Yes.

What kind of art should I use for Odessy? Like some sailing boats or what?

1144

Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Mock-ups 2.0

« on: September 07, 2016, 08:04:52 pm »

Blechh, the forum is being weird. Many updates coming soon.

1145

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action

« on: September 07, 2016, 03:26:03 pm »

Have you seen Asper's scientist?

1146

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Plot: A $5 gainer event

« on: September 07, 2016, 01:49:56 pm »

I would just give the deck a larger size and remove the part where cards are added (which would have to be expanded otherwise, as GendoIkari explained). This also avoids weird rules questions with cost reducers. And i don't see anything wrong with the first few purchases being more luck dependant, as they also get to choose first.

Okay.

Finally, what do you do about setup clauses of cards that are added to the deck only later, like Baker?

Well it seems clear that they just wouldn't do anything. It says "Before the game begins", so if it's added mid-game nothing happens.

1147

Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Creating Dominion

« on: September 07, 2016, 01:39:54 pm »

Trusty steed only costs .

1148

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards

« on: September 07, 2016, 01:04:29 pm »

Yay! I knew Jester would be there somewhere. +1 for Jester being on the list.

+1 for +1ing jester on the list.

1149

General Discussion / Re: Brag Board

« on: September 06, 2016, 07:35:16 pm »

I finally figured out how to mcok up fan cards solely using GIMP.

Edit: I've posted 400 posts on the forum.

1150

Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Mini-Set Mock-ups 2.0

« on: September 06, 2016, 07:25:27 pm »

Mistakes & things to fix:
-Tithe might be renamed.
-Tithe and Instructor could return to their original names if I find the right art.
-Should Recruiter say "Attack cards" instead of "Attacks"?