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NoMoreFun

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Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« on: July 12, 2013, 07:08:42 am »
+7

Update as of 18/08/2014 - I am now in the process of making card art

So I stop spamming the board with topics, here's what I have so far on the fan expansion I'm working on. This thread will eventually be replaced by one with an OP of all the cards neatly laid out with art.

The theme of the set is things that effect every player, largely in a symmetrical way. In this set, the cards that aren't interactive are negligible compared to the cards that are. It's up to you to work this chaos to your advantage. The set includes Events which can be unpredictable and affect everyone, Trinkets, which differentiate players from the start going into the interactive environment, and Cells - a kind of junk that remains a threat throughout the game, but can also be used to your advantage.

The set has 35 Kingdom Cards, but only 300 printed cards. There are 24 normal action cards (including one victory card), and 11 "single" cards (which are also Kingdoms).

There are:
23 normal kingdom cards (23*11=253 cards)
1 victory kingdom card (13 cards)
11 "Single" kingdom cards
10 Events
6 Trinkets
7 Cells



SPECIAL CARDS


Trinkets: Everyone replaces one of their starting coppers with one Trinket (with selection similar to Shelters/Colonies). You get to choose which Trinket you get in reverse player order.

Events: When a card asks you to resolve an event, reveal the it and follow the text on it, then return it to the bottom of the event deck. The events are listed at the bottom, and all involve an effect that affects all 4 players.

Single: If a card is of the type "Single", then there is only one of them in the supply (the randomiser). Furthermore, the card does not count towards the number of empty piles under any circumstances. Using more than 2 "single" cards in a game is not recommended unless you know what you're doing.

Cell: Similar to spoils. These are not in the supply, and the number of them is quite small (because they are meant to be easy to get rid of, self moating and infinitely recurring). They appear as follows:

Cell
Action - $0*
Discard any number of cards from your hand. +1 Action for each card you discard this way. Trash this.
---
When you trash this, return it to the Cell Pile
(This card is not in the supply)



THE CARDS

Bargain
Action/Reaction - $1
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $1 more than it.
---
When you would gain a card, you may return this from your hand to the supply. If you did, instead, gain a card costing up to $1 more than it. Put the card into your hand.

(Note: The Name comes from a somewhat similar pure reaction card developed by GeoLib which was the inspiration for this card – I think it’s different enough but I couldn't think of a more suitable name for this card)
$2 Cards


Ambush
Single - $2
When you would gain this, instead put it anywhere inside a supply pile, and take the Ambush token.
---
When this card appears on top of a Supply pile, return it to its own pile, and the current player trashes a card costing at least $3 that he has in play. The player with the Ambush token pays it to gain a card costing $3-$6 from the trash, putting it in his hand.

Fool
Action/Single - $2
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Put this card on top of any non-empty supply pile of cards costing $6 or less. That pile is the Fool pile.

Blacksmith
Action - $2
Reveal a card from your hand. If it's an:
Action Card - Gain a copy of it
Treasure Card - +$3
Victory Card - +3 cards
Put the revealed card on top of your deck.

Store
Action - $2
+1 Action
+1 Card
+$1
Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.


$3 Cards

Fete
Single - $3
When you would gain this, instead, look at the top 2 cards of the Fete deck, put one on the bottom of your deck, and put the other back on the bottom of the Fete deck.
---
Setup: Make a Fete deck out of one copy of every Kingdom supply pile in the current game.

Note: The text isn't "gain" so you can't activate when gain effects. Your opponents do not get to see any cards.

Conflict
Action/Attack/Single - $3
+2 Cards
Starting with the player to your left, each player (including you) trashes any number of cards from his hand. The player who trashed the most cards first gains this card, and all other players gain a Curse.

Outskirts
Action/Reaction - $3
+2 Actions
+1 Card
---
When another player plays an Outskirts, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, +1 Card and put this on top of your deck.

Prospector
Action - $3
+1 Action
Gain a Silver
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put it anywhere in your deck.

Scribe
Action - $3
+$2
Place the top card of the event deck face down on your Scribe Mat
---
At the start of your turn, you may reveal and resolve an Event from your Scribe Mat. You may look at the cards on your Scribe Mat at any time.




$4 Cards

Tower
Single - $4
When you would gain this, instead, move a tower token to any supply pile, and trash the top card of that pile if it isn't a Victory card.
---
Setup: Place a tower token on each of the Estate, Duchy and Province supply piles. Cards are worth an extra 1VP for every tower token on its supply pile.

Revolutionary
Action - $4
+1 Action
Each player (including you) may put a card from his hand on top of his deck.
Reveal your hand. The player to your left may choose any number of cards from it. Discard those cards.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.

Barge
Action - $4
Now and at the start of your next turn; +1 buy, draw until you have 6 cards in hand
Put your deck in your discard pile
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand.

Beauty
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from his hand until he can reveal a hand of only Actions and Treasures.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.

Contrarian
Action/Attack - $4
+3 Cards
Each player (including you) with 5 or more cards in hand puts a card from his hand anywhere in his deck.
---
When you gain this, resolve the top Event from the Event deck. 

Fleet
Action/Duration - $4
+2 Cards
+$1 if any other player has a Duration in play
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
While this card is in play, when you would gain a card, you may, instead, gain a Fleet.

Labyrinth
Action - $4
Do all three of the following in any order:
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand
Discard a card
Trash all but 3 cards in your hand

Oppressor
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Cards
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals a Victory card from his hand and puts it on the bottom of his deck (or reveals a hand with no Victory cards). He then reveals the top card of his deck, gaining a Cell from the Cell pile if it isn't a Cell, putting it on top of his deck.

Plantation
Action/Victory - $4
Worth 1VP
---
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a victory card. Put it in your hand and discard the rest.

Repair
Action/Reaction - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $3 more, putting it on top of your deck.
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card.

$5 Cards

Enchanter
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, move the hex token to any Action supply pile.
---
At the start of your Buy phase, if you have no actions remaining and a copy of the card with the Hex token in play, each other player gains a Curse. Place the Hex token on the Enchanter supply pile at the start of the game and when it’s on an empty pile.  

Patrol
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain a cheaper card, and each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck, gaining a Cell from the Cell pile if it’s any other card. Each player puts any cards gained this way on the bottom of his deck. 

Package
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 differently named cards that are neither Singles nor Victory Cards with a total cost of up to $7.

Pioneer
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead gain a cheaper Action card, placing it on the Pioneer mat.
---
During your turn you may play a card from the Pioneer mat instead of from your hand. If you do, trash it. 

Rival Markets
Action/Duration/Single - $5*
+$2
+2 Actions
+2 Cards
+2 Buys
At the start of your next turn, return this to its own pile.
---
While this card is in play, it is also in the Supply, and costs $4.

Cargo
Treasure - $5
Worth $1
When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. 

Conqueror
Action - $5
Gain 2 Cards with a total cost of up to $7.
Each player (including you) looks through his discard pile and either trashes a card from it or puts a card from it on top of his deck.

Escape Artist
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Each player (including you) may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn’t, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.
You may play a Cell from your hand.

Pariah
Action - $5
Gain a card costing up to $6. Each other player may gain a Curse, putting it on top of his deck. If he did, he also gains a copy of the card you gained. 

Dock
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Buy
+$1
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may set it aside on the Dock mat. Put all cards on the Dock mat in your hand at the start of your turn.

Town Crier
Action - $5
+$3
+1 Buy
Resolve the top Event from the Event deck  

Whittler
Action - $5
You may do this up to three times:
Reveal an action card from your hand. Play it, then trash it. Gain a card costing less than the trashed card, putting it in your hand.

Other Costs


Baroness
Victory/Single - $0*
Worth 2VP for each Estate left in the supply.
---
This card costs $1 for each Estate left in the supply. 

Archer
Action/Attack - $6
Each player reveals cards from his deck until revealing one costing $3 or more. He either discards it or puts it back (you choose), then discards the other revealed cards.
+3 Cards

TRINKETS


Bell
Action/Trinket - $0*
+2 Actions
+$1

Chain
Treasure/Trinket - $0*
Worth $0
---
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less (to a minimum of $0)

Dagger
Treasure/Reaction/Trinket - $0*
Worth $1
When another player plays an attack card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, you are unaffected by the attack.

Locket
Treasure/Victory/Trinket - $0*
Worth 1VP for each name of a Treasure you have in your deck other than Gold, Silver or Copper.
---
Worth $1

Rare Coin
Treasure/Trinket – $4*
Worth $1

Sigil
Treasure/Trinket - $0*
Worth $1, +$2 for each empty supply pile

EVENTS


Bring Out Your Dead!:
Each player may trash a card from his hand. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Meeting!:
Each player draws a card. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Silver Rush!:
Each player gains a Silver. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Excavation!:
Each player may discard any number of cards from his hand. +1 card for each card he discarded this way. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Exhibit!:
Each player may look through his discard pile, and put a card from it on top of his deck. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Forecast!:
Each player looks at the top 5 cards of his deck, and either discards them all or puts them back in any order. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.



Alms!:
Each player gains a copper, putting it in his hand. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Riots!:
Each player reveals the top 3 cards of his deck, discards the actions and treasures and puts the other cards back in any order. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Inquisition!:
Each player may discard 2 cards from his hand. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse, putting it in his hand. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Inspection!:
Each player puts a Victory or Curse card on top of his deck (or reveals a hand with no such cards). Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 06:36:49 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 07:23:21 am »
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Secret History/What I was attempting to do

GENERAL OVERVIEW: I was very frustrated to hear about how there would be no new expansions after Guilds, and then about how the limiting factor in expansions was the number of cards. I saw so much wasted space: randomisers, blank cards, cards like Scout and Pearl Diver. The idea then came to me: could you design an expansion that made ultimate use of the design space? To demonstrate, I set out to design a set that fit a big box expansion into a small box. When Dark Ages was announced however, I realised that it would be a better challenge. The key was "single cards" - using what would otherwise be a wasted card (a randomizer) as a card in itself. Cells and Trinkets are direct parallels to Ruins and Shelters, aiming to take up less space while doing something similar (although they ended up not being that way).

Another feeling was that the game had gotten stale (largely due to outplaying it on isotropic), to the point where I wouldn't often be surprised by anything happening. I then played ascension and loved the turbulent nature of the game, especially the "events", and wanted a way to bring that to dominion. I also loved the "interactive" cards like City, and idealised every card being like that.

The set ended up getting an enormous "everyone gets hit the same" theme, which I've loved since the fan card "Garrison" in the design contest and since a thread explained the "mirror image" nature of "Followers". This also aligned excellently with events, and gave the set its name. In addition, one of my old obsessions (bottom decking) ended up making a rather large appearance. I try to make each concept pop up at least 3 times as well; these "Mini themes" hopefully make for a cohesive set.

Bargain: Copper/Silver/Gold and Estate/Duchy/Province, and now Bargain/Remodel/Expand. Of course, the top effect alone isn't a very good card, so it needs a way to get rid of itself, which the bottom, inspired by an identically named card by GeoLib, allows. A disappearing copper isn't a terrible thing for a card to be, and this allows some very interesting interactions with gainers, especially ones that demand specific cards. The supply returning and gaining to hand also means it can block cursers indefinitely, and the cards are unlikely to run out quickly (a real risk). It seems so elegant as a $1 card, but it was originally $2, the effect was "reveal and trash to gain a card costing $2 more" and there was no "top effect" - the poor reaction to pure reactions changed that.

Ambush: A very old idea. I want to get the idea of a surprise appearing from nowhere into dominion somehow; when the card isn't what you expected it to be, like the very game itself has been sabotaged. The "knight" effect is pronounced, and a variation on the "steal the card they would have gained." It's "gain to hand" so the effect of the successful ambush can be seen quickly; I was also considering "gain to the top of your deck" so that ambushing yourself was viable. It still is viable if you use a gainer. It probably plays similarly to embargo, but hopefully (especially in IRL games which can drag on in terms of time), people forget where the ambush went, and tricks with putting it not immediately below the top card will hopefully give the intended effect of surprise.

Fool: A heavily updated version of "Racket", a card which blocked a supply pile for everyone but you. This card was the first "single" I came up with. I made it a "good" card so it was in wide circulation. It's a more "friendly" embargo, but one that remains ever present. Perhaps a completely benign card that gets the player thinking about their opponent a little more; not bad for a Single.

Blacksmith: LastFootnote tried card copier (surveyor) that didn't work, but I thought the concept deserved a try. It was a weak effect because of needing to line up cards, so to make it a "smooth" card I gave it 2 other ironworks like effects to mirror Herbalist and Courtyard. I like how strong it seems while actually not being strong at all, and it's a nice general utility card to go alongside Steward and Squire. The name comes from the +3 cards effect, and the "iron".

Store: I love bottom decking, and tried to make a full set of bottom deckers once. The idea is a card to be the logical continuation the "Oasis" family, but one with advanced strategy. You can treat it like oasis, but the real power is in lining up cards on the bottom of your deck for real strategy.

Fete: Everything in Dominion is out in the open (except masquerade in multiplayer), to the point where if you're keeping track you can know the exact composition of your opponent's deck. I wanted to change that with this card. I also like the idea of Lucky Dip (explored nicely with Black Market), and the 2 concepts aligned. Bottom Decking

Conflict: A "hot potato" card; a natural thing to try and make when going for single card kingdoms. Originally a worse curse that you passed around, but that didn't cut it as a "kingdom". Instead, a "game" like masquerade happens with this card. I can imagine it being more fun in casual IRL games than any other setting.

Outskirts: It undermines the "compact" principle but the set really looked like it needed a normal "Village". INstead of modifying another card I made this. To make it interesting I set myself the challenge of making a card that cost $3 that was still a cantrip village. I decided to address the aspect of villages where you often end up not playing it at the right time. To make it not worse than village I made it self reacting, which also ties into the interactivity.

Prospector: A late relic of an often spammed "Everyone gains the same treasure" idea. It ended up being a card like Stash. I remember seeing a card that was simply "+1 Action, gain a silver on top of your deck" that I liked, and this card is similar enough. However people were commenting that it was weak, so I decided to make this card the "stash/royal seal" card. I might change it to bottom decking if it's too annoying, but that undermines the "now I draw the silver I just gained" factor.

Scribe: After coming up with events, I wanted a card that could make you use them to your advantage, so I decided to have this card, which puts you in charge of events. It seemed fairly innocuous, so terminal silver. People seem to think this card is bad for some reason.

Tower - An old idea; an "alt VP" card except instead of being a defined category, it's whatever the players define, and there's a competition to define it. Very political, but that can be fun for some players.

Barge - I saw the "when you gain, you may trash" effect on a Dark Ages outtake. I thought it was interesting, but would be even more interesting when it wasn't your turn and during your action phase, so I put it on a duration. I also liked the idea of a card that always misses the reshuffle; I think it's a good thing when a card implies a strategy fact (eg the existence of Cache was surprising when I first saw it as a beginner). The top bit was hard to pick, and not the same as what won me a set design contest, but I liked how it interacted with the "other people's turn" effect. The card really does a number on Cursers.

Beauty - Wish fulfillment. I wanted a draw to X village, but "+2 Actions, draw to 5" was well known and had a name here, so I made it a cellar/village. Also toying with the concept of an attack village, and "discard your junk" seemed unique, weak but not nothing, and didn't recur - a perfect candidate. The two effects lined up perfectly. It was originally part of a "when you reveal" card, but those effects weren't exciting anyone.

Contrarian - When thinking "bottom decking", I wanted a ghost ship style card, but I had to be clever about the differences. I first tried a "margrave" style attack to emphasise the difference between top decking, bottom decking and discarding, but that didn't get good feedback in competitions. I liked the effect of "Garrison" though, and decided to do a similar "mirror image" for that card, and it looked good. Later I realised "anywhere decking" is more interesting. The card is a better courtyard, but the "attack" is often a good thing for the other player. The event is a penalty (since happening during your buy phase is not a good time); this gets it out of the "too good for $4, not good enough for $5" gap.

Fleet - For the "self comboing cards" competition, I wanted a card that didn't get far too much better with multiple plays like Bridge, so I tried the idea of a duration. Initially it was put into now/next turn/turn after card, but it seemed too weak. However simply having "+2 Cards, next turn +1 Action" looked boring, and also less like it belonged in a fancy fan set and more just a seaside outtake. I wanted a way to trigger events, and the "if another Fleet is in play" seemed perfect for the set, but because there'd be too many events, I made it +$1 instead - hopefully it isn't too strong. The "while in play" effect on the other hand is a way to encourage gaining many copies, while not falling into any "strictly better" traps. I also like how it blocks Curses.

Labyrinth Instead of picking from a list of options, why not have the list in front of you and pick the order. That was the concept, and applying that to the outtake "dungeon" seemed to work best.

Oppressor - I wanted 3 cards that used "cell", and one that was more blatantly an attack. I decided to run with the "slows you down" theme, doing what Sea Hag couldn't do with the self moating (so you can't put a stack of cells on top.) Topdecking a Cell seemed to answer the "next turn militia" concept. Fitting something around it was the hardest part. I opted with the "bottom deck bureaucrat" idea from elsewhere, and +2 cards to contrast your speeding up with their slowing down.

Plantation - A card that always draws other copies of itself? Interesting, but overpowered. However if it either drew that or junk? Now that works. Making it a victory card that only drew other victory cards was the perfect way to do that. It had to be non terminal so it really did lead into itself, and $4 to make it easy to obtain many copies (and for Ironworks). A hard decision was deciding whether to make it a Village, Peddler or Laboratory. I went with Lab because it seemed the least esoteric of the 3 even though it wouldn't be easy to make work. The 1VP would be something worse than 1VP if it wasn't hard to make something that's both interesting and simple in that space (but not 0VP - seems pointless).

Repair Get it, because the 2 cards form a pair? Came from a pure thought experiment about Mine, Rebuild and Graverobber, realising that the "Expand" effect wasn't very good if you kept to the same type. I love "cheap" effects that seem strong. It was originally "up to 5 more". It doesn't make much of a difference to the card but I'd rather keep it in line. The topdecking makes the "Rebuild" effect worse - necessary after it was revealed how strong Rebuild was. It can't trash curses so it can block them; also the reaction effect opens up cards that specify other cards, and can "combo" with another Repair to make a Remodel (not a great use IMO, but there you go).

Revolutionary - Something I came up with after Advisor was revealed. I started to like it when I realised that this had all the aspects that made draw to X cards fun Amplified - now you REALLY want to reduce your hand size before you play it. The "everyone topdecks" was a nice way to bring it in line with the theme while making it a little stronger.

Enchanter - The other sets (until guilds; why didn't they make Soothsayer hand out Coin Tokens? It would have been so simple and interesting...) had a thematic card for their Cursers. I decided to go the same way by making a single card curser with non attack interactivity. "Turn another card" into a curser seemed like a good idea, but I wanted to keep it to terminals, hence the wording.

Patrol - An attempt at a when gain militia. That alone isn't, so I combined it with a Nomad Camp. Bottom decking because Cells need to self moat, but turning any $4 card into Nomad Camp messes with the opening far too much.

Package - Cache could have been a single card. Here's my attempt at something similar in the Cache/Masterpiece space. It's not strictly better than Cache because in games with both this and Cache, you can make Cache one of the cards you gain with it. I'd later use that to make my Village (Outskirts). Wording attempts to avoid making province gaining to easy (especially with the "Chain" trinket).

Pioneer - A "coin token" that's actually an Action! I came up with this before Guilds' mechanic was announced, but what does that matter.

Rival Markets - An "engine piece" that you'll want to keep buying back, but it's going to cost you. Was changed to a single late in the picture. The cost variation is to make it work with Workshop style cards.

Cargo - Built around "trash a card in play". It had to work with Copper, so it's a treasure, but it also has to be worthwhile with other cards, so it's a remodel. I tried very hard to make it a $4 card but "worth $0" looked wrong, and it compares too well to upgrade. Hopefully not too similar to counterfeit.

Conqueror - Originally Gain a Gold, but the effect of the Hermit/Scavenger would be more pronounced with gaining 2 cards (you could gain a good one and junk the other). It just sort of fell into place.

Dock - Originally a "next turn apprentice", the bottom effect was just a way to spice the card up. That card ended up seeming quite ridiculous, but I still needed a card with +Buy, and I wanted those +buys to be meaningful, so the effect stayed. It's similar to Wharf, but less powerful and more strategic (the idea is to line up cards). Also a unique vanilla effect (because I couldn't decide whether to go with +$1 or +$2)

Escape Artist - A way to reconcile "+2 Cards, discard for actions". The reason Cell is the way it is. The extremely mild attack hopefully gets it out of the too good for 4, not good enough for 5 bubble. Also it's a mirror. It was originally a Lab for you but it looked strictly better, and Lab already has an issue of cards looking strictly better than it (Hunting Party).

Pariah - For the Cornucopia design contest; what's a card that would actually convince you to pursue a different strategy to your opponent. The idea is that you don't want to gain a card that anyone else wants, because the curse mirroring actually isn't very strong. I made the curse a non discarding Sea Hag to make it a bit more pronounced (and also a chance to have that effect on a card), but that may have killed the subtlety of the card. Soothsayer wrecked my perceptions of how good "Gain a Gold" was. This is a 2nd "curser" to fit the set theme; Dark ages has Cultist AND Marauder so I'm happy with that, and the Cell givers aren't really Junkers as much as strange Militia variants.

Town Crier
Events needed a card that triggered them. I went with a very simple one

Whittler
An attempt at a reverse procession. Probably extremely niche. Originally you would whittle one card down to nothing, but that was hard to balance. Then it was infinitely playable, but Fortress ruined everything :P. Three times would be enough, even though you'd rarely use it all 3. I suspect it will largely be used to milk Actions for money by turning them into silver.

Baroness - I needed one last single. A card that messes with estates (much like Duke with Duchies) would do the trick. It's not going to be a game changer and may very well be cut if I can figure out a better Single.

Archer - Would Saboteur be a good attack without trashing? Maybe. It made a nice "mirror" thing with a Sage effect, and I needed a terminal drawer that was better than Smithy. Everything came together. It costs $6 because opening with it would be far too annoying, and the draw also seems quite powerful (either 3 cards and one of them is good, or 4 cards).

CELL: How would "discard for actions" be as a card. Junk, it turned out. It seemed like the perfect candidate for recurring junk, and since it mirrored the "militia" effect (if you want to play actions, you have to lose cards), everything started to come together nicely.

TRINKETS
- I wanted something unique to each player that could shape strategy - mirror matches seemed like they happened too often on isotropic. Each Trinket would hopefully "suggest" a strategy, while not affecting the opening at all. Reverse turn order seemed like a good way to pick, because random could have big disparities in some kingdoms, and FTA is a big issue. There were originally 7 for the 7 coppers, but I ran out of good ideas and there'd only ever be 6 players - I suppose if you want to play the rainbow you can have the 6 and a copper for variety. Chain was originally "Toy Bridge" and dondon151's idea.

EVENTS - Tried to think of as many simple effects as possible. I wanted some helpful and some harmful. The "navigator" effect is because a spy effect seemed too innocuous, but having seen how annoying navigator is on Goko it may change again.

Outtakes: 2 different cards that gave everyone the same treasure, just in different places. A lot of tension over whether they were attacks or not, and ultimately just didn't seem worth it even though I thought they were clever. A few cards tried "when reveal" effects, but they were hard to get right. I loved the idea of pure reactions, but they weren't popular. Bargain is a surviving relic of a pure reaction. A triple duration (now, next turn, the turn after) was tried but hard to get the power right.

The main outtake, mechanically, was "unique" randomisers. For example, buying the last Contrarian would reveal a card that flipped the turn order, or at the end of a pile would be a victory card that counted cards from that pile, or a pile would have a built in "Ambush". Ultimately I decided that you should be able to get the cards out of the box without going through the randomiser pile to finish the set. Single cards on the other hand were fine as they would be treated differently to other "randomisers".
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 10:07:35 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 09:22:15 am »
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Fool: The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it.

Ambassador should be able to pass the card. You can also return a ruins, no matter which is on top. In multiplayer games, it could matter.


In general: So many cool cards, especially the single cards. But I can imagine Cummune won't be and annoying that strong with +Buys because it always switchs player.
 I like the card-draw mechanic from Musketeers. And Tower is neat. Great for an engine player to build up some more points.

I am not sure about Events because they are very random. It also decreases the amount of games with lack of trashing/draw/cursing/hand-reducing, and I personally don't like that much, because it makes board analysing very complicated and sometimes pretty useless.

Blockade has't a cost yet.
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Warfreak2

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 09:48:04 am »
+1

Fool
Action/Single - $2
+2 Cards
Put this on top of any Kingdom supply pile.

Note: Kingdom means not a base card. Similar to knights, when a Fool is on top of the supply pile, it must be gained before any cards below it can be gained. The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it. You can play Band of Misfits as a fool and put a Band of Misfits on top of a Kingdom supply pile, and the same rules apply.
This is fun. There will be rules questions - can I put it on an empty supply pile? If so, and that pile is no longer "in the supply", does it still count for the end-of-game conditions? What happens if I play it with KC, or Procession? (I presume it only moves once, after which it's lost track of, and can't be trashed for the same reason).


Commune
Action/Duration/Single - $2
Now, and the start of every turn this is in play: Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
---
While this card is in play, it is also in the Supply.
I like it. It plays very differently depending on the availability of +buy.


Trashman
Action/Single - $2+
When you would gain this, instead, gain a card from the Trash
When you buy this you may overpay. If you did, trash a Treasure from your hand, and gain a card costing up to the amount you overpaid more than it.
Why does it have an Action type? It should be a pure Single type, since it has no action effect (what if I choose it for Band of Misfits?).

It doesn't work. I am paying $2 extra for some card to trash a Copper from my hand (effectively $3 extra, since I could have played the Copper), but then I have to gain something from the trash. Or I could pay $1 less for some card, to trash a Silver from my hand (but this is effectively $1 more because I could have played the Silver), which makes it pointless to just gain the Silver right back. So I have to trash a Gold, in which case I'm effectively paying $1 less for a card, as long as it costs more than $6 - usually that is only Province - and probably I want to gain that Gold right back, because Gold is even better than usual here, it lets me buy Province for $7.

So logically, if I have a Gold, I can buy a Province for $7, and almost always I am gaining my Gold back from the trash. If I have a Silver, and I buy something for $4+, I can swap the Silver I spent for any other card in the trash for an additional expense of $1, but usually there won't be anything in the trash better than Silver, because Gold isn't going to stay there. Then if I have a Copper, I can spend $3 extra to turn it into something from the trash, but there won't be any Silvers in the trash either, because there's no reason to use it to trash Silver.

So, this card in any game without TfB or trashing attacks, which is a large proportion of games, will effectively be "in this game, Provinces cost $7 if you have a Gold in play", which seems much less interesting than what you were going for.


Benefactor
Action - $2
Name a treasure card. Gain a copy in your hand. Each other player gains a copy, and puts it on top of his deck if it's a copper, in his discard pile if it's a Silver, and in his hand otherwise.
"Name a card" seems superfluous here; "Gain a Treasure card in your hand". Otherwise it's interesting.


Musketeers
Action/Duration - $3
+$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
When you discard this from play, draw an extra card at the end of that turn's clean up phase.
This doesn't seem very different from "Now: +$1. At the start of your next turn, +1 Action. At the start of the turn after that, +1 Card". Drawing another card in cleanup is different for handsize attacks, of course, and my version would miss the reshuffle much more often, and you wouldn't be able to play the same copy of the card for $1 in the same turn as you had the +1 Card. But it would make the card a lot simpler.


Scholar
Action - $3
You may discard any number of cards from your hand. Count the number of treasures you discarded this way, and draw until you have twice that many cards in hand.
Is the ability to discard cards other than Treasures totally essential to this card? It might be more balanced without it.

For accountability, you have to reveal the cards before (or while) you discard them, as "discard any number of cards" is an atomic operation, and the opponent is not entitled to see all cards you discard, only the top card of your discard pile.

It could be: "Reveal any number of Treasure cards from your hand. Discard them [and any other cards from your hand you choose?], and draw until you have twice that number of cards in hand."


Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may play an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
This is a simple but interesting village.


Opportunist
Reaction - $3
When any player gains a Treasure card, you may reveal and discard this. If you do, resolve an Event.
---
When you reveal this, +1 card
Needs "you may reveal and discard this from your hand".

I think people will very rarely want this card. All of the events affect everyone equally, but you had the opportunity cost of triggering it; getting +1 Card when you do means it replaces itself in your hand, OK, but that needs to happen during your opponent's turn for it to be harmless for you, you can't guarantee your opponent will buy (or otherwise gain) a Treasure every time you have it in your hand. OK, there are tricks where you gain a Treasure during your Action phase in which case it is exactly neutral, but still, you have a reduced handsize in order to achieve that, and many games don't have treasure-gaining anyway. Buying a Treasure yourself to activate it is almost always pointless.


Cargo
Treasure - $4
Worth $1
When you play this, trash a card in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
---
When you trash this, gain a copper, putting it in your hand.
This is very nearly strictly better than Feast; OK, you gain a Copper, but it is itself a Copper-trasher, so that's not a problem. It also can't be drawn dead, and it gives you +$2 when you use it as a feast, which is not insignificant! Compare with Counterfeit, which lets you play a treasure a second time to trash it; this one is $1 (and a buy) worse for trashing Coppers, but gains $4s and $7s for trashing Silvers and Golds (instead of +$2/+$3 and a buy respectively), which is quite competitive - but it can upgrade Action cards and you don't even forego playing them, and it can upgrade itself too. So it's usually better than Counterfeit, and Counterfeit is a strong $5; this should probably be $6.


Philanthropist
Action - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Name a treasure card. Gain a copy, putting it in your hand if it's a copper, on top of your deck if it's a silver, and on the bottom otherwise. Each other player also gains a copy.
This is far too similar to Benefactor to be worth being a different card. Otherwise the same comments apply.


Scribe
Action - $4
+$2
Set aside an event face down onto your Scribe Mat
---
In games using this, at the start of your turn, you may resolve an Event from your Scribe mat. You may look at the cards on your mat at any time.
Probably should be $2, but I'm really not convinced about buying a card and spending an action just to give everyone the same benefit as you, and certainly not to give yourself the same punishment as everyone else. Compare with Duchess, which is a terminal Silver for $2, and gives everyone an equal benefit; people usually don't even take Duchess when it's free.


Revolutionary
Action - $4
+1 Action
Reveal your hand. The player to your left may select any number of the cards for you to discard.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
This is rarely, if ever, going to be good. It's very nearly strictly worse than Advisor, and lots of people hate Advisor. It sounds more like a junk card.


Rear Admiral
Action/Attack - $4
+3 Cards
Each player (including you) with 5 or more cards in hand puts a card from his hand anywhere in his deck.
If you have one, it's better than a Courtyard which attacks, it must be too much better than Smithy (you automatically have a bigger hand to choose from) Remember also that Courtyard is a good card, so the second one of these you play isn't really bad either! OK, so you can't build a draw engine using only Rear Admirals, maybe it's not strictly better than Smithy, but there's often other draw cards you can use to supplement it, it would still feel better at $5. Margrave is also not good to play lots of. At $4 it's a cheap attack which totally nombos with Urchin, though, that's funny.


Repair
Action/Reaction - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $5 more than it
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card.
It needs "you may reveal this from your hand".
I think I joined in the balance discussion for this card in a different thread. Infinite Goons is theoretically a problem, it would be nice if there was a simple wording that prevented it. Repair/Farmland/Colony sounds super-good, turn Estates into Repairs and Farmlands into Colonies; probably no more broken than Masterpiece/Feodum, though. Overall I think it's a good card.


Barge
Action/Duration - $4
Put your deck in your discard pile
Now and at the start of your next turn:
+$1, +2 Buys
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand.
This one we discussed elsewhere too.


Serf
Action/Victory - $4
Worth 1VP
---
+1 Action, +$1
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a victory card. Put it in your hand, and discard the other revealed cards.
A Peddler variant! In most games it will usually chain into itself reliably, letting you play all of them, but isn't at all resistant to greening. It's similar to, but a little worse than Treasury, except that Treasury isn't worth 1VP. So I think it has to be $5.


Tower
Victory/Single - $4
When you would gain this, instead, move a Tower token to any Kingdom supply pile. Cards are worth 1VP per Tower token on the supply pile
---
Setup: Place all 3 Tower Tokens on the Tower card.
A game-changer for sure, but the rules aren't clear from the card - can I move a Tower token from any pile, or just from the Tower pile? The wording should specify that they count Tower tokens on their own supply pile, "the supply pile" is a bit vague and ambiguous. I like it.


Oppressor
Action/Attack - $4
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. Put one in your hand, and discard the others.
Each other player reveals the top card of his deck, and gains a Cell from the Cell pile if it is any other card, putting it on top of his deck.
A strong $4; this is what Herald used to do, and apparently it was brokenly strong, but this is terminal so probably it's OK. Wording should be "Each other player reveals the top card of his deck; if it is not a Cell, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it on his deck."


Escape Artist
Action/Attack - $5
+2 Cards
Each player (including you) may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn’t, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.
You may play a Cell from your hand.
It's strictly better than Inn, but Inn has a nice on-gain benefit so that's OK. It's very strong with Watchtower/Library, but that's a situation in which you want a Cell (and it's nice that your opponent lets you gain one to your hand - probably you don't want to trash it with your Watchtower!).


Conqueror
Action - $5
Gain a Gold
Each player (including you) reveals a card from his discard pile and either trashes it or puts it on top of his deck.
Players are not permitted to actually look through their discard pile unless told to. Also, you should clarify who is choosing what to do with the revealed card. It has to be "Each player (including you) looks through his discard pile, chooses a card, reveals it, and either trashes it or puts it on his deck, (your choice/his choice." I'm not sure "Gain a Gold." needs to be on a separate line.


Beauty
Action - $5
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Discard the Treasures and put the other revealed cards in your hand.
When you reveal this, gain a Silver
(Note: Same rules as opportunist)
This is almost strictly better than Farming Village since it doesn't draw Treasures, but actually gaining a Silver every time you reveal it (and it will reveal other copies of itself very often) is a nerf; Silver-flooding is contrary to a strategy that wants villages. So, probably it should be $4.

It's also brokenly strong with Feodum, as any time you draw a Beauty, you gain one fewer Silvers per turn as you have Beauties, and the last one Chancellors your deck nicely for you too. Then again, Trader and Masterpiece are already brokenly strong with Feodum, so maybe that isn't a problem.


Blockade
+1 Action
+1 Card
+$2
Trash a card from your hand. Set aside a number of cards from the top of your deck equal to its cost in coins. At the start of your next turn, put the set aside cards in your hand
---
While this is in play, cards cost $1 more. Apply this after all other cost modifiers.
The card is missing Action/Duration type; it also doesn't have a cost? This is already strictly better than Junk Dealer, so it must cost $6+. "Cards cost $1 more" is a mechanic already considered carefully and rejected by DXV, it has the potential to easily lock other players out of the game completely. Yours is a cantrip, and it's expensive, so whoever gets to these first is going to totally stop the other players from getting them. That doesn't sound like a fun game to me.


Town Crier
Action - $5
+$3
Resolve an Event
This appears reasonable.


Rival Markets
Action - $5
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+$2
Return this to the supply
And if Procession is in the game? Probably should be "Return this to the supply. If you do,"


Vendor
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 cards with a total cost of up to $7
Do you intend that I can piledrive Fools Golds (or any $2 cost) by choosing Vendor as one of my three cards?


Patrol
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain a cheaper card, and each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck, gaining a Cell from the Cell pile if it is any other card. Each player puts any cards gained this way on the bottom of his deck.
Same wording issue as Oppressor. Seems like a really weak attack, it compares very unfavourably to IGG: OK, Silver (or anything else <=$4) is better to have in your deck than IGG (though IGG rushes like gaining Coppers), but you can only do it once per shuffle, and Cell is just hardly a junk card at all compared to Curse. It also doesn't empty any piles, and really I'd just much rather have any other $5 card.


Recruiter
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 2 cheaper Action cards, setting them aside on your Recruiter mat.
---
During your turn, you may play cards from your Recruiter mat instead of from your hand. If you do, trash the card.
"In games using this, during your action phase, you may play cards from your Recruiter mat [instead of/as well as?] from your hand. Trash any cards played from your Recruiter mat."

Either way this is brokenly strong with Treasure Map; you can't use one from your Recruiter mat to trash the other, obviously, but you can buy two other Treasure Maps normally, and as soon as one is in your hand, you play one from your Recruiter mat, getting 8 Golds in total with zero effort.


Enchanter
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, move the Hex token to any Action card’s supply pile.
---
When you play a card, if you have no actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse per Hex token on the pile.
It ought to have "In games using this,". This doesn't work like you think it does. "When you play a card" is when you put it into your play area, before you resolve any of it, including +Actions. So you play a Great Hall, "when you play it" you have no actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse, and then you get +1 Card +1 Action. So, it's broken. Also it needs a setup rule, "At the beginning of the game, put the Hex token on this card", and why does the card text refer to "the" Hex token, yet the bottom part refers to the possibility of multiple Hex tokens, I don't know what's going on there. Probably you don't want more than one Hex token, even after you fix this bug.


Industry
Action - $6
+4 cards
Discard any number of cards. Gain a card that isn’t a Victory card costing up to a cost equal to the number of cards you discarded this way.
For consistency, you should mimic the phrasing from official cards as much as possible. (This is my biggest peeve for fan cards.) "Gain a card that is not a Victory card, with a cost in coins equal to the number of cards discarded."


Whittler
Action - $6
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. If you did, repeat the following steps until you fail to gain a card:
Gain an action card costing less than the card you just trashed with Whittler. Play it. Trash it.
I don't know how this card will play at all; probably it depends very heavily on the board. It's ridiculously good with Border Village, and also very good with Fortress present, especially if BoM is too. I am absolutely sure it doesn't need +1 Card +1 Action.


TRINKETS
This is a nice idea, especially the reverse-turn-order thing, but I think it is going to be too much of a last-player-advantage in many kingdoms; there's often going to be one of these that is just really great to have, it won't be the same one each time, but whoever gets it will have a big advantage. Bell is the only village on some boards, and it can get to Peddlers much quicker. Chain is great with Goons engines, Locket with multiple kingdom treasures (wording should be "each differently named Treasure"), Sigil in City or IGG games.


Excavation!:
Each player may discard any number of cards from his hand. +1 Card per card discarded.

Exhibit!:
Each player may look through his discard pile, and put a card from it on top of his deck.

Forecast!:
Each player looks at the top 5 cards of his deck, and either discards them or puts them back in any order.

Alms!:
Each player gains a Copper, putting it in his hand.

Riots!:
Each player reveals the top 3 cards of his deck, discards the revealed Actions and Treasures and puts the rest back in any order.

Inspection!:
Each player puts a Victory or Curse card from his hand on top of his deck (or reveals a hand with no such cards).
[/color]
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

Warfreak2

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 09:49:26 am »
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Fool: The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it.

Ambassador should be able to pass the card. You can also return a ruins, no matter which is on top. In multiplayer games, it could matter.
Ambassador can return Ruins because Ruins are in the supply. Fool specifically says that the pile below it is not in the supply, so Ambassador can't return cards from it.
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 10:19:33 am »
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Fool: The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it.

Ambassador should be able to pass the card. You can also return a ruins, no matter which is on top. In multiplayer games, it could matter.
Ambassador can return Ruins because Ruins are in the supply. Fool specifically says that the pile below it is not in the supply, so Ambassador can't return cards from it.

Alright, I missed that
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 10:32:33 am »
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Musketeers
Action/Duration - $3
+$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
When you discard this from play, draw an extra card at the end of that turn's clean up phase.
This doesn't seem very different from "Now: +$1. At the start of your next turn, +1 Action. At the start of the turn after that, +1 Card". Drawing another card in cleanup is different for handsize attacks, of course, and my version would miss the reshuffle much more often, and you wouldn't be able to play the same copy of the card for $1 in the same turn as you had the +1 Card. But it would make the card a lot simpler.

I would go with the triple duration (which is in fact, the concept of the card), but it's going to be hard to keep track of, especially since this may be a card you'd buy lots of. This way it's just like any other duration for tracking.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 10:59:32 am »
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Other responses to Warfreak's responses (not good at partial quoting):
* Cargo is better than Feast, but not strictly better and feast is one of the worst cards in the game, so that doesn't concern me (similar to noble brigand/thief). In fact the entire idea of the card is that it's a more versatile feast, so a non negotiable is that it costs $4, can trash itself, and lets you gain a $5. I originally had it give 2 Coppers in hand when you trashed it but that seemed a bit too good for Duchies. Compared to counterfeit you're $1 and a buy worse off for copper, although you gain a $4 card instead of $2 and a buy for silver (which are pretty much directly equivalent costwise - see woodcutter/workshop). Trashing gold is a terrible idea in most kingdoms. Upgrading actions having played them is nice, although I don't find myself using upgrade on actions particularly often (and $1 is worse than +1 card for anything but terminal actions). It is an extremely versatile card and I didn't particularly want it to give $1 (it just felt wrong having a treasure that didn't increase your buying power at all).
* I think Serf is fine at $4 as you either have to trash your estates or buy 4 to make it really start self chaining, and then it chokes on green once you start greening in earnest. Also the last Serf in the chain is a copper/chancellor. Furthermore having multiple Serfs in your hand (which is likely if you have a high density of them) is actually of no benefit to you. It's pretty much a different take on a "half harem"; drawing a dead card is slightly better than drawing nothing.
* I didn't mean for Beauty to Self Synergise that well. Big Money/Beauty is probably too good a strategy (buy no other actions, then gain lots and lots of Silvers). The intention of the card is the reveal effect. Back to the drawing board.
* Whittler is a cantrip because it's a very kingdom dependent card. I had to make it $6 or else it would be too easy for another Whittler to be in the chain (you can still do self chaining; you just have to sacrifice a very good card). As a cantrip it's not entirely unreasonable that you'd buy it for $6 just to trash coppers and estates without the card really going off. This is the most "novelty" card of the set.
* Enchanters wording was an attempt to be similar to embargo. There's only one hex token, and it's only supposed to turn terminals into cursers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 11:03:22 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 11:10:27 am »
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More as I notice them
*Blockade is meant to be $5 and a Duration. I didn't really think about how many of these would typically be in play, but one thing to consider is that you yourself are negatively affected by it the following turn. I made it a cantrip to match Haven and gave it +$2 because I would like to see that on a card. I didn't realise how it compared to other $5s. It's still not strictly better than Junk Dealer because it's worse with +buys and gainers, and the "hangover" turn is a problem as well. Back to the drawing board, although I don't think cost increases should be written off entirely. It will take quite a lot of them (although admittedly that's not that hard to do with a cantrip) to lock out other players.
* Didn't intend Vendor to be Vendorable.
* With Patrol, a key feature is that you get to bottom deck the $4 you choose. This isn't quite as good as top decking obviously, but it is an advantage, and there's also the fact that you can stack cards as you buy them on the bottom. It will be good for Treasure map, as an obvious example (although I hate that card and I don't care if it makes recruiter broken).
* Philanthropist and Benefactor are not even remotely similar in terms of how they play. The fact that one's terminal and the other's a cantrip is enough to imply that. A sort of idea with this set is that there are multiple cards that sort of match up to each other; that's why there's 2 "when reveal" cards, 3 cards that resolve events, 3 cards that give Cells, etc.
* Scribe lets you know what the events are and resolve it when it suits you. Some like "Silver Rush!" are not very time dependent, but others are. I think I'll make it $3, as quite a few other ideas were vying to be $4
* Why do you think Revolutionary is bad? It's a Possessed Cellar+Lab, so it would play a little differently to Advisor (which I think is a decent card). My main concern is that it places a big strategic burden on the player to your left, as they really have to think about whether the card they discard is likely to be better or worse than the card that will replace it, instead of just picking the best card of 3 or 5 to deny you. Also, a lot of draw to X combos will work very well; especially in this set with Cells.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 11:26:56 am by NoMoreFun »
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Warfreak2

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 12:07:46 pm »
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Here's a version of Whittler with a simpler phrasing. It plays quite differently obviously.

Whittler, Action, $6
+1 Action
---
While this is in play, when you play another Action card, trash it, then gain an Action card costing less than it, playing the gained card immediately.


I would go with the triple duration (which is in fact, the concept of the card), but it's going to be hard to keep track of, especially since this may be a card you'd buy lots of. This way it's just like any other duration for tracking.
That's a fair point, I suppose.


Trashing gold is a terrible idea in most kingdoms. Upgrading actions having played them is nice, although I don't find myself using upgrade on actions particularly often (and $1 is worse than +1 card for anything but terminal actions). It is an extremely versatile card and I didn't particularly want it to give $1 (it just felt wrong having a treasure that didn't increase your buying power at all).
I think trashing a Gold to gain a KC is a great idea, and it's something both this card and Counterfeit are able to do. With Upgrade, you would typically do it even though you won't get +$3 from also playing the Gold. You will usually not Upgrade Action cards because you want to play them instead. With this, that's not a consideration.

Horn of Plenty is a Treasure which gains, and that produces $0.

This just compares too favourably with good $5 cards (Upgrade and Counterfeit), there's no way it's balanced at $4.


* I think Serf is fine at $4 as you either have to trash your estates or buy 4 to make it really start self chaining, and then it chokes on green once you start greening in earnest. Also the last Serf in the chain is a copper/chancellor. Furthermore having multiple Serfs in your hand (which is likely if you have a high density of them) is actually of no benefit to you. It's pretty much a different take on a "half harem"; drawing a dead card is slightly better than drawing nothing.
Being able to trash your Estates is quite typical, even Trade Route, Develop or Transmute are enough for that. There's also games with Shelters. Besides, most Peddler variants require some light trashing to start chaining effectively. If you are buying these, your plan has to be not drawing dead cards.


* Whittler is a cantrip because it's a very kingdom dependent card. I had to make it $6 or else it would be too easy for another Whittler to be in the chain (you can still do self chaining; you just have to sacrifice a very good card). As a cantrip it's not entirely unreasonable that you'd buy it for $6 just to trash coppers and estates without the card really going off. This is the most "novelty" card of the set.
My thought was that you are almost always going to get at least +1 Card and +1 Action out of the chain of cards you play; very likely you're going to draw a lot and have a lot of actions anyway. If the board is so weak that you can't do that, +1 Card +1 Action isn't going to make Whittler viable.


* Enchanters wording was an attempt to be similar to embargo. There's only one hex token, and it's only supposed to turn terminals into cursers.
A better wording could be: "In games using this, at the end of your Action phase, if you played a card from the pile with the Hex token, and have no Actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse." It would be interesting to have +Actions not always be good, and it rewards players who have a good balance of villages and terminals.

Back to the drawing board, although I don't think cost increases should be written off entirely. It will take quite a lot of them (although admittedly that's not that hard to do with a cantrip) to lock out other players.
I think cost increasers should be written off entirely. Even if they aren't spammable (make them expensive terminals), there are going to be multiplayer games where P1 plays it, P2 plays it, P3 plays it, and then P4 cries.


* With Patrol, a key feature is that you get to bottom deck the $4 you choose. This isn't quite as good as top decking obviously, but it is an advantage, and there's also the fact that you can stack cards as you buy them on the bottom. It will be good for Treasure map, as an obvious example (although I hate that card and I don't care if it makes recruiter broken).
You could still make Patrol $4, gaining $4 or cheaper to the bottom of your deck; the attack is so weak, it wouldn't matter so much that it would be strictly better to get almost every other $4 card via a Patrol buy, you're still using the other $4 cards, you're just gaining them instead of buying them.


* Philanthropist and Benefactor are not even remotely similar in terms of how they play. The fact that one's terminal and the other's a cantrip is enough to imply that. A sort of idea with this set is that there are multiple cards that sort of match up to each other; that's why there's 2 "when reveal" cards, 3 cards that resolve events, 3 cards that give Cells, etc.
It's primarily a Big Money card. If you're playing an engine, you want to attack your opponent, not give them free Golds. Sure, there are differences in how they play, but "everyone gains a Treasure card you choose, you gain it in a different way" is a pretty specific card, I can't imagine why you'd need more than one of them.


* Why do you think Revolutionary is bad? It's a Possessed Cellar+Lab, so it would play a little differently to Advisor (which I think is a decent card). My main concern is that it places a big strategic burden on the player to your left, as they really have to think about whether the card they discard is likely to be better or worse than the card that will replace it, instead of just picking the best card of 3 or 5 to deny you. Also, a lot of draw to X combos will work very well; especially in this set with Cells.
Pillage? You pay $5 and spend an action to do this to your opponent once, making them discard only one card, because it's really good to be able to discard their best card from their hand; making them draw a card, on the other hand, you routinely do that with Council Room or Soothsayer, no big deal. Being able to play two Pillages on the same hand is almost always devastating. Deciding what cards are above your average is also hardly a burden, c.f. Spy, Oracle; if you will play 5 Scrying Pools, you even have to decide whether a card is in the bottom 20% of someone's deck. How is it a burden to have to choose what good cards you will discard?

Advisor is good when you will normally draw two or three good cards, because they can only make you discard one of them. This lets them make you discard as many as they want. So there are a few games where you can play like, four Oases and then one of these revealing an empty hand. It's probably playable with Festival or Candlestick Maker; maybe I'm being a bit harsh and it could be quite good with Chapel and a high village density so you can play as many cards as possible first. It combos with your junk card Cell, though I think that says more about how weak Cell-giving attacks are than how good this is.

There is an official card that is only really playable in games full of cards from its own expansion, it's a long-running joke on these forums.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 02:56:34 pm »
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Quote
Fool: The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it.

Ambassador should be able to pass the card. You can also return a ruins, no matter which is on top. In multiplayer games, it could matter.
Ambassador can return Ruins because Ruins are in the supply. Fool specifically says that the pile below it is not in the supply, so Ambassador can't return cards from it.

If the Curse pile is empty, Curse is not in the supply. I can still return a Curse with Ambassador.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 03:00:21 pm »
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"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

As you can't return Prizes or Spoils, you're unable to return Fool. I just misread, why they should be "passable".
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 03:25:25 pm »
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I guess a theme of this expansion is "space/time" theme, which more thoroughly explores how a card's nature can change depending on where it goes and when it's played. Events definitely will highlight that. The treasure "wash" cards do a good job of highlighting that sort of thing, and I think the difference between the 2 cards is in itself a highlighting factor.

On the Cell Attacks:
A common fan card idea is "+2 Cards, discard cards for actions". It's too good for $4, not good enough for $5. I thought about how the card would be without the +2 Cards, and realised it was sort of Junk. Then I thought it would be a clever way to have a Militia style Attack encapsulated in a card, which allowed for some often proposed ideas to work. Also, the idea of infinitely recurring Junk seemed like something different to what's usually in the game. In order for things not to get ridiculous, and to keep the card count low, they all need to Self Moat in some way.

Oppressor: This is a way of doing a "next turn" Militia. I also want to explore cards that slowed you down in subtle ways, so this slows down your reshuffle by one; the Copper effect of Benefactor is another attempt at this. To contrast this I wanted the top to speed you up, so I picked the Navigator esque effect.

Escape Artist: A bit more versatility and a weak, Urchin style attack should make the card a competitive $5

Patrol: I want there to be 3 cards that give out Cells (similar to how there were 3 ruins cards, and 3 spoils cards) and also noticed that another unexplored thing was when gain Militias. This is for a good reason as you could have the rug pulled out from under you instantly with such a card, but you can see the Cell coming. Top Decking and Hand were taken, so the one that's left is Bottom Decking - a favourite of mine (one of my early posts is a bunch of card ideas that use bottom decking). I found something nice to pair it with as a single card. It does seem a bit weak though; perhaps there's nothing wrong with 2 topdeckers.

Other notes:
I came up with Opportunist quickly when I realised that "when reveal, +1 card" wasn't impossible to deal with. That's the point of the card; the event discard is a way of having the reveal effect come out regardless of the kingdom, and that 3rd Event card I was looking for (plus a pure reaction yay). Same goes for Beauty.

On Cargo:
Horn of plenty is a $0 treasure but it always gains a card and even then it's quite a bizarre card. It's quite obvious what the trinket "chain" is trying to do. A treasure that gives $0 that may do nothing but trash a copper, though, doesn't seem quite right. There's far too many things I like that Cargo explores (fixing feast, on trash instant $, trashing cards in play, a card that "deactivates" itself). It's one of my favourite cards; too bad it's overpowered.
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eHalcyon

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 04:08:07 pm »
+1

I like your idea to have players choose trinkets in reverse order.

One concern -- does the game still work if you have a kingdom of 10 Singles?

Fool -- not quite sure what you mean with BoM.  If you do it with BoM, you'd still have to buy the BoM for $5, right?  Once it's back in the pile, it becomes BoM again, even if it's on top of something else?

Fool could do some weird things with Ambassador.  If I reveal Fool, I should be allowed to return it to any Supply pile with Fool on top, and there may be more than one.  And then what happens after that?  Do players have to gain a Fool from the original pile, or from any Supply pile with a Fool on top?  Who gets to choose?  These things are not clearly defined.


Commune -- needs a bit of rewording, I think: "Now and at the start of each turn you have this in play".  Without some anchor like that, I think some people may be confused about who gets the benefit.  That is, you play Commune.  Now at the start of my turn, Commune is in play so I get to draw up to 6 cards?  Presumably not, because you say it can be bought and gained from other players.


Benefactor -- how does it do more harm than good?  Lighthouse maybe ("ha, you don't get to gain a Gold!") but you can choose not to reveal Moat.  The copper bit is worrying because that IS quite attack-ish.  Maybe OK anyway.


Scholar -- doesn't need "you may" at the start; it's redundant with "any number" (which could be zero).  Second sentence has a comma splice.  This is a weird card.  No idea how strong it is.  Instinct makes me think it should be $4 but I have nothing to base that on.  Interesting concept!


Capital -- Weird Village variant, I guess.  Not as good with card draw, but if you play a non-draw (or even a discarder) then you can make it an activated City or better.  The good use cases should be fairly common, so I suspect that this warrants a $4 cost.  Unsure though.  Interesting, but I think I prefer the simplicity of WW's Production Village. 


Opportunist -- On-reveal is a bit confusing.  Your example is helpful but the timing is still tricky (wrt how the card you drew doesn't get revealed).  It can happen other ways too -- Hunting Party, for example.  You reveal an Opportunist, immediately drawing a card which isn't revealed to HP so HP might find a duplicate of the card you just drew.  Weird.

Weren't Events generally neutral (some good, some bad)?  If so, why would I want to buy a pure Reaction for the chance to resolve Events?  The +1 card on reveal might be helpful but that won't be usable in every game (without other revealers, you can only trigger it when someone else buys Treasure, in which case it's like I never had Opportunist in my hand at all, events aside; if nobody buys Treasure, then Opportunist is just a dead card).


Philanthropist -- For clarity, should probably say "copy of the named card".  Not sure how strong this is.  I don't really like that this is a non-terminal card that can flood your opponents with Treasure.  I guess there's Governor.


Revolutionary -- I suppose this still suffers from ambiguity as to whether the player chooses just the number of the actual cards to discard.  I can't remember what wording I suggested before (maybe it's even what you're using now) but this is still ambiguous.  And it's also redundant with the "may" there.  Hmm, maybe something like this:

"The player to your left chooses which cards you discard, if any."


Rear Admiral -- Seems too powerful.  It is almost strictly better than Courtyard in that you can put cards anywhere rather than only on top, and in that it attacks other players.  Courtyard is already better than Smithy much of the time.  With this attack, I think RA should be a $5.  Granted, the attack maybe isn't that strong because the opponent can also put the card anywhere.  Ehh.


Repair -- I still wonder about this one.


Tower -- Wording is a bit confusing.  I think you mean this: "At the end of the game, each card is worth 1VP per Tower token on its Supply pile".  Is that right?  My wording is a bit rough too.  It might need to say "worth an extra 1VP" because otherwise one could interpret it as meaning (for example) that Province gets reduced to 1VP if there is one Tower token on it.  And there may also be confusion if a Supply pile runs out.


Oppressor -- Wording could be clearer; there are currently some grammar gymnastics there. :P  I think: "Each other player reveals the top card of his deck.  If it is not a Cell then he gains a Cell, putting it on top of his deck."

The filtering sounds super powerful at first, but it's terminal and doesn't even increase your hand size so it's probably aright.  Probably too weak for $5, so $4 sounds good.

The extreme filtering seems pretty disconnected from the attack.


Escape Artist -- Seems quite weak to me.  Oh wait, you end up gaining a Cell and then immediately playing it... OK, I guess.


Beauty -- Without the on-reveal, seems fairly interesting.  It's like an even more selective Farming Village.  That's pretty neat.  Would be simpler if it just discarded everything else, but I guess it's OK to put the junk in your hand.  You've put it at $5 so it can have a bit of extra strength, plus it makes it a bit more possible to skillfully trigger a reshuffle to make a bunch of green miss it.

I don't like the on-reveal.  I think on-reveal is too tricky to begin with, but this one doesn't work so well anyway.  It's unrelated to the action, Silvers get skipped by Beauty anyway, and if you are building a Beauty engine then extra Silvers will just get in the way.  Everything else is cool though.


Blockade -- Missing a price.  I presume it's $5, like the others in this section.  You've got the vanillas in the wrong order (Card comes before Action).

OK, so the main action and the "while in play" makes it equivalent to Junk Dealer unless you Buy more than one thing, in which case it is worse that JD.  But you also sort of get a Duration effect out of it.  Even trashing Copper, you'll get an extra Card next turn (more if you play more than one Blockade).  Trashing Estate is even better -- 3 extra cards next turn!

I'm not convinced that the cost increase downside makes up for the strength of the "duration".  Maybe if Blockade was an actual Duration, hurting your next turn's buying power even while granting extra cards.  Not sure.  Tricky concept.

Oh, but if it is actually a Duration, then it's a cost increaser on other players' turns.  That is a concept I despise.


Vendor -- I think this should cost $6, because otherwise it is like a more flexible Cache.  At $6, it still gives a small discount but the main thing it does is it acts as a restricted and always-available source of +Buy.  That's still plenty interesting.

(PPE: oh man, WarFreak brings up a great point about how Vendor is recursively broken; add in "other than Vendor").


Patrol -- Wording again.  "If it is not a Cell" is clearer than "if it is any other card".  And you can just say "gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it on the bottom of his deck".  You don't need to say "any cards gained this way" because they'll only be gaining Cells, right?

In case it isn't clear, the ambiguity in the first part is because "any other card" doesn't explicitly state what card it is comparing too.  Probably you mean, "any card other than Cell", but that's only implied.  In this particular case, it's also a reasonable interpretation that you mean "any card other than the cheaper card you gained".


Recruiter -- Need an FAQ for this, I think.  Can I play any number of cards from my Recruiter mat?  Or is it just like an extension of my hand (that is not counted for things like Library)?  I assme the latter.


Enchanter -- Also a bit unclear which pile... I think I understand though.  I play Smithy and have no actions left; now each player gains 2 Curses if there are 2 Hex tokens on the Smithy pile.  Correct?  Although it's a bit weird -- the main instruction suggests that there is only one Hex token, but if that's the case then why does the latter instruction say "per Hex token"?

Wording suggestion: "When you would gain this, instead move a Hex token to any Action card's supply pile.  Piles with a Hex token are "hexed".  // When you play a hexed card, if you have no actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse [per Hex token on its pile]."

It's worth noting that this can be a completely dead card in kingdoms without actions.

(PPE: WarFreak makes a good point about how it is broken...)


Whittler -- Ugh.  I remember seeing a similar card in the Mini-Set Design Contest which was, I believe, a joke entry. 

This is just asking for massive tracking issues.  So, so many tracking issues.  You can end up playing and trashing SEVEN separate actions.  That's seven effects you've received which are no longer in your player area.  And that's not even considering that one of those actions might be yet another Whittler.  That's just insane.  And then you consider that this is non-terminal.  And then throw in KC-Whittler.  This is the first one I've read here that I would toss into the Bad Ideas thread, sorry!


Trinkets -- Quite a bit of variation makes them vary heavily in power depending on the kingdom.  Still, your reverse player order idea is pretty nice for dealing with this issue.


Overall -- several of the Events cards seem weak because the effects (good or bad) are symmetric; it's therefore not worth it for me to do anything to trigger Events.  That's especially true for the pure reaction, which is a dead card much of the time and, even in the best case, helps opponents as much as me, or hurts me as much as opponents.

I like some of the Single cards, but I think many of them could end up being dead piles in certain kingdoms.  Many of them rely on there being regular piles around.  You need to think about what would happen in a kingdom without actions, or with a bunch of singles.  It may be necessary to include a rule that there is no more than one (two?) Single card in a Kingdom.
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Warfreak2

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2013, 04:31:59 pm »
+1

Fool could do some weird things with Ambassador.  If I reveal Fool, I should be allowed to return it to any Supply pile with Fool on top, and there may be more than one.
That's impossible, as there's only one Fool card. I suspect you could in fact return it to any supply pile you want, though it hardly matters except for Moat, Lighthouse &c.


Benefactor -- how does it do more harm than good?  Lighthouse maybe ("ha, you don't get to gain a Gold!") but you can choose not to reveal Moat.  The copper bit is worrying because that IS quite attack-ish.  Maybe OK anyway.
They would have to reveal Moat when you play the card, which is before you choose the Treasure. So if they reveal the Moat, you will choose Gold for sure, but not revealing the Moat doesn't mean they get to gain a Gold.


Opportunist -- On-reveal is a bit confusing.  Your example is helpful but the timing is still tricky (wrt how the card you drew doesn't get revealed).  It can happen other ways too -- Hunting Party, for example.  You reveal an Opportunist, immediately drawing a card which isn't revealed to HP so HP might find a duplicate of the card you just drew.  Weird.
That seems wrong, "reveal cards from your deck until" should be treated as an atomic operation, like Chapel trashing Overgrown Estate doesn't draw a card until you chose and trashed. You would reveal cards until you put one in your hand, discarding the rest, and then draw an extra card per Opportunist revealed.


Tower -- Wording is a bit confusing.  I think you mean this: "At the end of the game, each card is worth 1VP per Tower token on its Supply pile".  Is that right?  My wording is a bit rough too.  It might need to say "worth an extra 1VP" because otherwise one could interpret it as meaning (for example) that Province gets reduced to 1VP if there is one Tower token on it.  And there may also be confusion if a Supply pile runs out.
You can't Tower the Provinces as they aren't a kingdom supply pile, but this does apply to Tunnel, Nobles &c.




Vendor -- I think this should cost $6, because otherwise it is like a more flexible Cache.  At $6, it still gives a small discount but the main thing it does is it acts as a restricted and always-available source of +Buy.  That's still plenty interesting.

(PPE: oh man, WarFreak brings up a great point about how Vendor is recursively broken; add in "other than Vendor").
It's not strictly better than Cache, though, even if Poor House is on the board you would still prefer your Gold to come with two Coppers than a Poor House and a Copper. And Cache is weak, so I think it's fine (except for shenanigans).


Patrol -- Wording again.  "If it is not a Cell" is clearer than "if it is any other card".  And you can just say "gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it on the bottom of his deck".  You don't need to say "any cards gained this way" because they'll only be gaining Cells, right?
The intention is that the card you gain is also put on the bottom of your deck, but I think it would be cleaner to just say both of those separately.



It's worth noting that this can be a completely dead card in kingdoms without actions.
So is Village, so that's not a concern.


Whittler -- Ugh.  I remember seeing a similar card in the Mini-Set Design Contest which was, I believe, a joke entry. 

This is just asking for massive tracking issues.  So, so many tracking issues.  You can end up playing and trashing SEVEN separate actions.  That's seven effects you've received which are no longer in your player area.  And that's not even considering that one of those actions might be yet another Whittler.  That's just insane.  And then you consider that this is non-terminal.  And then throw in KC-Whittler.  This is the first one I've read here that I would toss into the Bad Ideas thread, sorry!
This is a remarkably good point, which makes Whittler something of an online-only card. Here's a modified version of my version:

Whittler, Action, $6
+1 Action
At the beginning of your buy phase, trash all other Action cards you have in play.
---
While this is in play, when you play another Action card, gain an Action card costing less than it, playing the gained card immediately.

Obviously you would never want to play KC/Whittler, as you only get 2 more actions, at the cost of trashing your KC.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 04:38:36 pm by Warfreak2 »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2013, 04:56:33 pm »
0

Hunting party does create a tracking issue, because the hand you revealed is no longer your actual hand, so if you take the effects sequentially there's an issue. I think though that the intention is that you have them both "revealed" at once, as the animation appears on Goko. With that you'd do everything up to putting the card in your hand, activate any "when reveal" effects, then finish the action.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2013, 05:01:49 pm »
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Vendor is better than Cache, but the only games in which that would matter are when they're both on the board, and in that case they complement each other (eg you could get Cache+4 coppers, Cache+$2 Card+3 Coppers)? There's also some subtle differences between the 2 such as if Thief/Noble Brigand are on the board.

Edit:
On Rear Admiral, it's an "attack", but your opponent putting one card anywhere in their deck isn't likely to hurt much and can often be helpful. The attack's just there to distinguish it a little bit from Courtyard; I wanted the "anywhere in your deck" effect in the set somewhere.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 05:04:58 pm by NoMoreFun »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2013, 05:09:43 pm »
+1

I play Whittler, trashing Catacombs, gaining Procession and not playing it, then gain Procession, playing it, playing Capital twice, playing an action, then drawing up to 5, playing Minion to discard and draw 4, then draw up to 5, then trash Capital and gain Procession, trash Procession, gain and play Capital, playing Procession, playing Capital twice, playing Minion, discarding and drawing 4, draw up to 5, play Minion, draw up to 5, trash Capital, gain Procession, trash Capital, gain and play Squire, trash Squire, gain Minion...This card is going to be impossibly difficult to play IRL.  I can't even begin to imagine what happens when I use a Whittler to gain and play Whittler...

For the most part I like this set so far.  If you're looking for more singles, Rival Markets might be fine as a single (although it might suck to miss it when you have $5).
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eHalcyon

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2013, 05:14:20 pm »
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Oh, I missed that Fool was a single.

That seems wrong, "reveal cards from your deck until" should be treated as an atomic operation, like Chapel trashing Overgrown Estate doesn't draw a card until you chose and trashed. You would reveal cards until you put one in your hand, discarding the rest, and then draw an extra card per Opportunist revealed.

No.  With Chapel, you choose up to 4 cards then trash them all at once.  Revealing cards (at least with HP) can't be an atomic action because you have to reveal one at a time.

Not to mention, HP also reveals your hand.

Quote
It's not strictly better than Cache, though, even if Poor House is on the board you would still prefer your Gold to come with two Coppers than a Poor House and a Copper. And Cache is weak, so I think it's fine (except for shenanigans).

Vendor says "up to $7", not "exactly".  So yeah, if Vendor is on the board, you can gain Gold and 2 Coppers even if Poor House is around.

It doesn't matter that Cache is weak -- you still shouldn't have something strictly superior.

Quote
So is Village, so that's not a concern.

Fair enough.  But it's much more common with this expansion because there are a bunch of Singles around.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2013, 05:40:12 pm »
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Commune
Action/Duration/Single - $2
Now, and the start of every turn this is in play: Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
---
While this card is in play, it is also in the Supply.

(In the supply means the card can be bought and gained)
This sounds quite fun in 2p, but with more players, I think it will be a bit too political. However, I think I would rise the price, at $2 there's often nothing to buy anyway..?
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Asper

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2013, 07:29:02 pm »
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"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

It is not, but "empty pile" implies "not in the supply". You can see this from the fact that Band of Misfits tells you to play it "as if it was a card in the supply", and that you cannot play Band of Misfits as a card from an empty pile.

We usually think of cards like Spoils when mentioning cards "not in the supply", but there are other cases. Empty piles are one. Covered up cards are another, which is why BoM cannot copy covered up Ruins (or a covered Sir Buyalot). Neither case has any meaning for Ambassador, though.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2013, 09:26:31 pm »
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"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

It is not, but "empty pile" implies "not in the supply". You can see this from the fact that Band of Misfits tells you to play it "as if it was a card in the supply", and that you cannot play Band of Misfits as a card from an empty pile.
It's the cards that aren't in the supply and BoM cards about cards. The pile is still in the supply, and Ambassador cares about piles.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2013, 10:20:51 pm »
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It's not strictly better than Cache, though, even if Poor House is on the board you would still prefer your Gold to come with two Coppers than a Poor House and a Copper. And Cache is weak, so I think it's fine (except for shenanigans).

Vendor says "up to $7", not "exactly".  So yeah, if Vendor is on the board, you can gain Gold and 2 Coppers even if Poor House is around.

It doesn't matter that Cache is weak -- you still shouldn't have something strictly superior.


Strictly superior is only a problem when both cards are in the kingdom and you'd buy X over Y every single time. Cache can be one of Vendor's 3 cards when you gain it, so this is not the case. That balance paradigm may very well come up with future cards, especially Singles.

I play Whittler, trashing Catacombs, gaining Procession and not playing it, then gain Procession, playing it, playing Capital twice, playing an action, then drawing up to 5, playing Minion to discard and draw 4, then draw up to 5, then trash Capital and gain Procession, trash Procession, gain and play Capital, playing Procession, playing Capital twice, playing Minion, discarding and drawing 4, draw up to 5, play Minion, draw up to 5, trash Capital, gain Procession, trash Capital, gain and play Squire, trash Squire, gain Minion...This card is going to be impossibly difficult to play IRL.  I can't even begin to imagine what happens when I use a Whittler to gain and play Whittler...

For the most part I like this set so far.  If you're looking for more singles, Rival Markets might be fine as a single (although it might suck to miss it when you have $5).

You're right about Whittler. Some cards like KC can do similarly ridiculous chains, but with whittler you might be able to do something ridiculous just by using a whittler to trash a Gold. Luckily Whittler can't call upon itself unless you trash a $7+ card, which is a tall order in almost every kingdom (I think a Forge outliving its usefulness is the best target).

Definitely back to the drawing board there. I just thought it would be fun, and "play a bunch of actions you don't own" seemed like a different enough take on deck thinning TfB. Blockade already fills that niche for this set though. Perhaps a way will present itself.

As for Rival Markets, the idea is it's probably the best engine piece, but it you want to use it to build that Engine, you will have to keep covering the $3 deficit with your hard earned coin. This requires multiples of them being in the kingdom.
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Eggplantation

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2013, 12:21:48 am »
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This is great! This expansion is really coming along with Dark Ages-esque strategic, interesting and awesome cards. Top job! Really like the new concepts and ways to play that this set brings with the singles, trinkets and cells and what not. Singles are a great way of doing what they do, I was thinking of making a card that when you buy it, you follow a set of instructions, then trash the card immediately, so it never ends up in your deck, but the singles work even better for what you are doing, however it may not work as well for my card.
Excellent stuff +1!
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Asper

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2013, 07:26:47 am »
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"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

It is not, but "empty pile" implies "not in the supply". You can see this from the fact that Band of Misfits tells you to play it "as if it was a card in the supply", and that you cannot play Band of Misfits as a card from an empty pile.
It's the cards that aren't in the supply and BoM cards about cards. The pile is still in the supply, and Ambassador cares about piles.

That was my point, you know. NoMoreFun's logic was that if the cards are covered up, they cannot be returned with Ambassador, because they are not in the supply. As you pointed out, the pile still is, so they can.

What he would have to aim for would be the actual pile not being part of the supply anymore, as with Spoils. To reach that, it has to say so on the card itself. Simply covering the pile doesn't help, rule-wise.

The problem is that simply declaring "Put this on any kingdom card supply pile. While it is there, that pile is not part of the supply" wouldn't solve it, because Fool could not be gained anymore and the pile would stay blocked forever.
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