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Dominion General Discussion / Alternate (pure) VP Cards
« on: July 05, 2012, 06:03:12 pm »
[Apologies if this topic exists somewhere on the forum, but a quick search didn't yield a clean topic match and this is a topic I feel I need a broader understanding of to improve as a player.]
Reviewing my ispotropic logs, I noticed a common theme in games where I snuck a victory away from someone who was +20 over me: I went after alternate VP cards while they were beating a more conventional path along the Province/Colony route. Notice I didn't say alternate VP *strategies* - I feel the efficacy of Goons/Bishop/Monument is widely accepted and established. Also, I know that the blended VP cards (Harem/Tunnel/Island, etc.) don't get a short-shrift of opinion. I'm talking about the kingdom's pure VP cards (Gardens, Vineyard, Silk Road, Duke, Fairgounds & Farmland (I think that's all of them, right?)) and the effect they have on the game. I have come to like these cards a lot more than I think most players do and I wanted to lay out the way I think of them and gauge other players' opinions of them.
Overall indicators: I may be wrong about this, but I feel that most of the really feared attacks in the game are aimed at disrupting the path to Provinces and Colonies, while the victory path for these alternate VP cards is somewhat inured against them. Militia? Discard Silk Road, Gardens - no big. Double torture? Discard garden, garden and take the curse to water them. Possession? Have fun with that silver you bought, buddy. Am I wrong about this? What attacks are going to muck with these the most? Based on your observation, do you think these cards get their due or are they over/under-rated?
Gardens and Silk Road - Usually all I need to get me aiming at these is one card in the Kingdom with +buy or a workshop/ironworks. Sometimes I'll even pick up gardens in heavy curse/attack games without +buy on the table. Based on anecdotal observation on isotropic, I feel that a lot of otherwise good players that "get" gardens for some reason don't "get" silk road the same way and let me soak up the whole pile along with great halls or some other mixed-VP and then scratch their head when they piledrive the provinces but still lose. I feel pretty comfortable with these cards, but I am looking for answers to a few deeper statistical/strategic questions around them.
How many silvers should you get before you start soaking these up? As a general rule-of-thumb, I tend to open +buy/silver, pick up 2-3 more silvers, 1 attack if there's a strong enough one available, another +buy and then turn to these, picking up extra silvers when I draw 3, the odd Duchy when I get a 5 and estates when I only get 2. After I pile these down, I roll up the rest of the estates/(cantrips for gardens). Is that the right way to play these? Are there any other broader indicators or strategic advice for these cards? Should I take Golds at all when I'm going for these cards?
Vineyard - I love this card, too. I will go after it exclusivley when there's a hamlet, pawn, crossroads or other cheap potion card (even transmute) on the board with it. I'll give it a serious look even when one of those cards isn't there, but there's some other +buy or mixed action/VP on the table.
How many silvers/potions should you pick up when you are going after Vines? I usually take a +buy, 2/3 silvers, an optional attack and 2 potions in that order. Should I skip golds or grab a couple before I dive back down on the Vines?
Fairgrounds - I love the strategy space this creates in most games, but I'm not as comfortable with it is as I am with the previous cards. Along with what seems to be the over-riding concern with most Cornucpoia cards, it effectiveness seems to be a function of the Kingdom-at-large for the most part. The rubric I generally use with this card is to see if there are 4 kingdom cards that will help get me to provinces in combination with each other. If there are, I pick up those 4 and at least one duchy and play the rest of the game like I would a normal province game, alternating between fairgounds and golds on $6-$7 midgame and all fairgrounds at the end. Am I playing this card the right way?
Duke - I've read a few good posts on Duke here. For the most part it seems to be something you do if there is some kind of +buy on the table, right? The interesting thing is how many Duchies to get before you take a stab at the Dukes. The first thing I read said 3 (sorry, forgot the link). The next thing I read said that strategy only works in a bubble and that you should try to get all 8 to "deny" them to the other guy (also lost the link for tat article, too). I think I tend to agree with the second method.
Farmland - People were kind enough to answer my question about this one in another thread. ( http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3292.0 ) In general, I don't like it as much as the other pure kingdom VP cards - In my other thread I got two suggestions for this card -A) Use it to trash an early estate into a silver $4 B) Endgame, when you draw Gold-Gold-Gold-Silver-Estate, play Gold-Gold-Silver and by a farmland to Remodel the gold into a Province - netting you a total of 8VP (Or Gold-Gold-Gold, Remodel Silver to Duchy for 9VP...or various other combos of that flavor). B) I "get", now - it might lead me to pick up an extra gold or two beyond the point where I would normally start greening...still, it seems kind of "meh" and something that I do on the way to Provinces rather than aiming at itself like the other pure VP cards. A) I think I don't completely agree with - You are turning a green into a green-and-a-silver? That seems like a net gain of 1 copper's worth of average draw value...that you spent $6 on.
Reviewing my ispotropic logs, I noticed a common theme in games where I snuck a victory away from someone who was +20 over me: I went after alternate VP cards while they were beating a more conventional path along the Province/Colony route. Notice I didn't say alternate VP *strategies* - I feel the efficacy of Goons/Bishop/Monument is widely accepted and established. Also, I know that the blended VP cards (Harem/Tunnel/Island, etc.) don't get a short-shrift of opinion. I'm talking about the kingdom's pure VP cards (Gardens, Vineyard, Silk Road, Duke, Fairgounds & Farmland (I think that's all of them, right?)) and the effect they have on the game. I have come to like these cards a lot more than I think most players do and I wanted to lay out the way I think of them and gauge other players' opinions of them.
Overall indicators: I may be wrong about this, but I feel that most of the really feared attacks in the game are aimed at disrupting the path to Provinces and Colonies, while the victory path for these alternate VP cards is somewhat inured against them. Militia? Discard Silk Road, Gardens - no big. Double torture? Discard garden, garden and take the curse to water them. Possession? Have fun with that silver you bought, buddy. Am I wrong about this? What attacks are going to muck with these the most? Based on your observation, do you think these cards get their due or are they over/under-rated?
Gardens and Silk Road - Usually all I need to get me aiming at these is one card in the Kingdom with +buy or a workshop/ironworks. Sometimes I'll even pick up gardens in heavy curse/attack games without +buy on the table. Based on anecdotal observation on isotropic, I feel that a lot of otherwise good players that "get" gardens for some reason don't "get" silk road the same way and let me soak up the whole pile along with great halls or some other mixed-VP and then scratch their head when they piledrive the provinces but still lose. I feel pretty comfortable with these cards, but I am looking for answers to a few deeper statistical/strategic questions around them.
How many silvers should you get before you start soaking these up? As a general rule-of-thumb, I tend to open +buy/silver, pick up 2-3 more silvers, 1 attack if there's a strong enough one available, another +buy and then turn to these, picking up extra silvers when I draw 3, the odd Duchy when I get a 5 and estates when I only get 2. After I pile these down, I roll up the rest of the estates/(cantrips for gardens). Is that the right way to play these? Are there any other broader indicators or strategic advice for these cards? Should I take Golds at all when I'm going for these cards?
Vineyard - I love this card, too. I will go after it exclusivley when there's a hamlet, pawn, crossroads or other cheap potion card (even transmute) on the board with it. I'll give it a serious look even when one of those cards isn't there, but there's some other +buy or mixed action/VP on the table.
How many silvers/potions should you pick up when you are going after Vines? I usually take a +buy, 2/3 silvers, an optional attack and 2 potions in that order. Should I skip golds or grab a couple before I dive back down on the Vines?
Fairgrounds - I love the strategy space this creates in most games, but I'm not as comfortable with it is as I am with the previous cards. Along with what seems to be the over-riding concern with most Cornucpoia cards, it effectiveness seems to be a function of the Kingdom-at-large for the most part. The rubric I generally use with this card is to see if there are 4 kingdom cards that will help get me to provinces in combination with each other. If there are, I pick up those 4 and at least one duchy and play the rest of the game like I would a normal province game, alternating between fairgounds and golds on $6-$7 midgame and all fairgrounds at the end. Am I playing this card the right way?
Duke - I've read a few good posts on Duke here. For the most part it seems to be something you do if there is some kind of +buy on the table, right? The interesting thing is how many Duchies to get before you take a stab at the Dukes. The first thing I read said 3 (sorry, forgot the link). The next thing I read said that strategy only works in a bubble and that you should try to get all 8 to "deny" them to the other guy (also lost the link for tat article, too). I think I tend to agree with the second method.
Farmland - People were kind enough to answer my question about this one in another thread. ( http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3292.0 ) In general, I don't like it as much as the other pure kingdom VP cards - In my other thread I got two suggestions for this card -