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Dominion General Discussion / Re: An Opinion on the 3 New Revisions (Seaside, Prosperity, Hinterlands)
« on: July 18, 2022, 10:41:09 am »
I can't speak to the other newly revised editions, but I've played Seaside a ton with new players IRL and I think your take on Durations specifically is wrong.
The challenge with newer players and Durations is the fact that Durations break the cadence of Dominion. It's very tough for new players to remember to not discard them at the end of their turn, to activate them at the start of the next turn, and then to discard them on the correct turn. Tricks like turning cards sideways can help, but then they have to remember to turn things sideways and, wait, what does sideways mean again?
So the best Durations for newer players are the ones that are hard to screw up. In Seaside, Tactician is the best card for newer players: it's easy to grok, no one discards it on the turn it is played, and you're darn sure you'll activate it next turn. Haven works well too, but something like Merchant Ship, while conceptually simple, can cause all kinds of problems.
Looking at the new Durations, I see 3-4 Durations that are newbie friendly, which more than doubles the current count in Seaside:
Contrary to your assertion, Blockade is fantastic on this score. Like Haven, the gained card sits under Blockade and helps you remember not to discard and to gain in hand next turn. Then the duration effect helps you keep track of when the card was active. There's a bunch of text, but the concept is simple and thematic, just like Tactician.
Pirate and Monkey (also on your list) seem to be newbie-friendly as well. They don't do anything the turn they're played, which helps you remember not to discard and the fact that they force you to pay attention to other people's turns helps you keep track of when the cards are active.
Tide Pools is borderline: it has some similarities to Tactician, but, since the benefit is front-loaded, I can see it being harder to remember when it did what.
The rest are trickier for newer players, but not for the reasons you suggest. Astrolabe is simple, but it's very tricky to keep track of. With Corsair, the fact that trashing happens after the Treasure provides money can be tricky for new players. Sailor is just a complex card and Sea Witch, well, I wouldn't play Witch with new players so Sea Witch is out on that front alone.
I've played Seaside with new players countless times and I've never heard anyone complain about the issue you brought up (different effects on different turns). That sounds like the sort of problem that someone who knows the game well would just assume newer players might have.
Also, that your concern with Tide Pools is that it's hard to explain to newer players the correct strategy for the card makes me think we have different approaches to playing with new players overall. I don't didactically explain how to play every card. I'll clear up any rules questions and give some pithy summary for certain cards (Tactician: lose a turn to get a mega turn) but otherwise let them explore and learn while I attempt stupid Dominion tricks on my turns.
The challenge with newer players and Durations is the fact that Durations break the cadence of Dominion. It's very tough for new players to remember to not discard them at the end of their turn, to activate them at the start of the next turn, and then to discard them on the correct turn. Tricks like turning cards sideways can help, but then they have to remember to turn things sideways and, wait, what does sideways mean again?
So the best Durations for newer players are the ones that are hard to screw up. In Seaside, Tactician is the best card for newer players: it's easy to grok, no one discards it on the turn it is played, and you're darn sure you'll activate it next turn. Haven works well too, but something like Merchant Ship, while conceptually simple, can cause all kinds of problems.
Looking at the new Durations, I see 3-4 Durations that are newbie friendly, which more than doubles the current count in Seaside:
Contrary to your assertion, Blockade is fantastic on this score. Like Haven, the gained card sits under Blockade and helps you remember not to discard and to gain in hand next turn. Then the duration effect helps you keep track of when the card was active. There's a bunch of text, but the concept is simple and thematic, just like Tactician.
Pirate and Monkey (also on your list) seem to be newbie-friendly as well. They don't do anything the turn they're played, which helps you remember not to discard and the fact that they force you to pay attention to other people's turns helps you keep track of when the cards are active.
Tide Pools is borderline: it has some similarities to Tactician, but, since the benefit is front-loaded, I can see it being harder to remember when it did what.
The rest are trickier for newer players, but not for the reasons you suggest. Astrolabe is simple, but it's very tricky to keep track of. With Corsair, the fact that trashing happens after the Treasure provides money can be tricky for new players. Sailor is just a complex card and Sea Witch, well, I wouldn't play Witch with new players so Sea Witch is out on that front alone.
I've played Seaside with new players countless times and I've never heard anyone complain about the issue you brought up (different effects on different turns). That sounds like the sort of problem that someone who knows the game well would just assume newer players might have.
Also, that your concern with Tide Pools is that it's hard to explain to newer players the correct strategy for the card makes me think we have different approaches to playing with new players overall. I don't didactically explain how to play every card. I'll clear up any rules questions and give some pithy summary for certain cards (Tactician: lose a turn to get a mega turn) but otherwise let them explore and learn while I attempt stupid Dominion tricks on my turns.