Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: sudgy on July 14, 2014, 07:46:28 pm
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Welcome to NewMafia VI (6)!
Mod: Sudgy
Comod: EgorK
(If you want the spec QT, PM me or /tag in this thread)
This game is a newbie game. As such, new players will get priority signups, and this game will have a simple setup.
INFO FOR NEWBIES: To play, all you have to do is post in this thread that you want to play, have read the Rules of Mafia (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9211.0) and agree to follow them, and have pledged the Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) (just read it and say something like "pledge" in that thread).
This game will have 12-day days and 48-hour nights. When the deadline hits without a lynch, a no lynch occurs.
This game should be evenly split between newbies and vets (that is, 4 to 5 newbies and 4 to 5 vets).
A newbie is defined here as someone who has not completed any games on f.ds. Vets are people who have completed at least three. If we don't fill up in a reasonable amount of time, we'll change this. If too many of one group want to play, they will be decided randomly.
Player list (newbies in bold):
1. mail-mi
2. Infinite Duress Eevee
3. SK Mafia Goon, lynched D1
4. Zappie
5. Twistedarcher
6. Hydrad
7. jotheonah Vanilla Townie, killed N1
8. pacovf
9. Witherweaver
Setup information in the next post.
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This game will use the Matrix6 (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6) setup.
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|Town Jailkeeper |Vanilla Townie|Mafia Goon |
|Mafia Roleblocker |Town Cop |Town Doctor |
|1-Shot Bulletproof Townie|Mafia Goon |Town Tracker|
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This setup will take a random row or column of the above matrix and add five Vanilla Townies and one Mafia Goon to the three randomly selected. So, in the end, there are six possible variations:
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
All possible PMs are here:
Role: Vanilla Townie
Abilities:
You have no special abilities beyond the right to vote.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.
Role: 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie
Abilities:
One attempt to kill (not lynch) will fail on you. After you have been tried to be killed once, you may be killed like normal.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.
Role: Town Cop
Abilities:
Each night, you may investigate a player in the game by sending the mods a PM. You will get results back in the form of “Town,” “Antitown,” or “No Result.”
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.
Role: Town Doctor
Abilities:
Each night, you may target one player to protect in the to protect them from one nightkill. You may not self target.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.
Role: Town Jailkeeper
Abilities:
Each night, you may target one player in the game, whom you will protect from the nightkill and roleblock simultaneously. You may not self target.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.
Role: Town Tracker
Abilities:
Each night, You may target a player to be tracked by sending the mods a PM. You will know who that player targeted in the same night phase. You will get results back in the form of "Name(s)", "None", or "No Result".
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.
Role: Mafia Goon
Abilities:
Factional communication: During the confirmation stage and nights, you may talk with your partner here: Quicktopic Link.
Factional kill: Each night phase, you or your partner may perform the factional kill.
Win condition:
You win when mafia obtain a majority of town or nothing can stop this from happening.
Role: Mafia Roleblocker
Abilities:
Factional communication: During the confirmation stage and nights, you may talk with your partner here: Quicktopic Link.
Factional kill: Each night phase, you or your partner may perform the factional kill.
Roleblock: Each night, you may target a player, thus causing any attempted actions to fail for the current night phase. Your target will not be notified of this. You may perfom this ability in addition to the factional kill.
Win condition:
You win when mafia obtain a majority of town or nothing can stop this from happening.
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/tag
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Alright, I opened NewMafia VI/6/110 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.0) for signups!
Where is the binary in the title?
/tag
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aw man, super tag. I love newbie games, but I fear I have no time for it.
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SIX .../tag
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I'll /in but if another vet wants my spot I'll give it up.
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/tag
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/in
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/in
ohmygodiactuallymeant/tag
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Please include me
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/tag
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/in
Oh lord here I go.
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/tag
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/in
Oh lord here I go.
But... there's not even a SK in this setup!
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Even though I have now done a couple of mafia games now, should I join this or not?
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This will be my first forum game ever - altough i am familiar with IRL werewolves
so
/in
And
/tag
I suppose
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Even though I have now done a couple of mafia games now, should I join this or not?
You can, but you'd be a veteran in this case.
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/in
Oh lord here I go.
But... there's not even a SK in this setup!
there is now
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so am I considered a newbie?
I'm in some games but havn't finished any yet.
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/in
I hate to take a spot in a newbie game but it doesn't look like we're going to be running another 9 person game in forever.
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/in
doesn't really matter if i'm a newbie or vet. I'm interested in this game.
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/in
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Probably this has enough veterans already, but if you need another player to fill the game, I'll /in.
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/tag
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Want a comod?
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/in
I hate to take a spot in a newbie game but it doesn't look like we're going to be running another 9 person game in forever.
You didn't sign up for Dune. Your own fault.
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/in
I hate to take a spot in a newbie game but it doesn't look like we're going to be running another 9 person game in forever.
You didn't sign up for Dune. Your own fault.
I missed it and can't find the thread...
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Depending on when this starts, I might be in (I won't have reliable access to internet during the first week of August).
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/tag
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Whole lotta newbies. I'm excited!
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Oh and /tag for speccy please.
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fdodankkkl
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Want a comod?
Sure.
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O_O I'm a vet already? well that was fast. either way I'm excited for my first "normal" game with no crazy abilities.
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O_O I'm a vet already? well that was fast. either way I'm excited for my first "normal" game with no crazy abilities.
I'm not considering you a technical vet, but since you /inned I put you in.
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Infinite Duress, remember that you need to pledge the Civility Pledge.
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/in
I hate to take a spot in a newbie game but it doesn't look like we're going to be running another 9 person game in forever.
You didn't sign up for Dune. Your own fault.
I missed it and can't find the thread...
Actually, you did sign up.
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alright fine.
/in
one more.
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We need another newbie! pacovf?
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more newbie players would be good; i'm still tempted, I love playing in the newbie games....let me just say this to new players. During the game, you may ask others for advice or answers. When it comes to game mechanics, glossary terms, and "standard procedure", they should never ever lie. When it comes to "what is best" or "what should be done", it's not so clear that you're getting a truthful answer.
But what I really want to talk about is "standard procedure" things. There are varied opinions on these things (I'm i'm frequently the vocal minority); a standard example is what people say about "should vigs shoot on night 1". There are a lot of factors that influence what is right in different scenarios. NEVER assume that other people are right just because they say they are.
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Also, nothing is personal guys. It's just a game. People are going to lie to win. That's how it is. Do not take it personally, and don't make it personal.
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very good advice. Don't be twats.
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We need another newbie! pacovf?
I won't have access to Internet from the 2nd of August to the 9th, and it will be kinda hard before the 30th of July anyway. So yeah, depends on when this starts. I'm fine with missing part of an in-game day, but not the whole of it, obviously.
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We need another newbie! pacovf?
I won't have access to Internet from the 2nd of August to the 9th, and it will be kinda hard before the 30th of July anyway. So yeah, depends on when this starts. I'm fine with missing part of an in-game day, but not the whole of it, obviously.
Seems like something scum would be concerned with, eh
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We need another newbie! pacovf?
I won't have access to Internet from the 2nd of August to the 9th, and it will be kinda hard before the 30th of July anyway. So yeah, depends on when this starts. I'm fine with missing part of an in-game day, but not the whole of it, obviously.
Seems like something scum would be concerned with, eh
Damn, scumslip! Sorry scum-partners :-[
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We need another newbie! pacovf?
I won't have access to Internet from the 2nd of August to the 9th, and it will be kinda hard before the 30th of July anyway. So yeah, depends on when this starts. I'm fine with missing part of an in-game day, but not the whole of it, obviously.
Seems like something scum would be concerned with, eh
Damn, scumslip! Sorry scum-partners :-[
It's ok, man. No big.
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very good advice. Don't be twats.
squatty twatty I'm notty
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/in. But as said, I will be without Internet access from the 2nd to the 9th of August, so please don't have the first deadline so early that I won't be able to contribute. Feel free to replace me if the game can start earlier that way.
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actually, I'd be happy to start the 9th or even a little later, as I'll be on vacation from the 6th through the 11th
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Start later! Then I can actively spectate! (I'm not 100% free until Aug 10th)
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I'm cool with waiting until the second week of August.
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Do you need another non-newbie player?
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I think it can start (after Aug 9) with another player of either stripe.
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I'm /in if that's good, but I don't mind if the space should go to a new player as well.
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Hurrah I'm excited for a more normal game where it's easier to find out what is and isn't possible
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Hurrah I'm excited for a more normal game where it's easier to find out what is and isn't possible
Shraeye lying as Town is possible.
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More like "omitting the truth".
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Town shouldn't lie. A world where lying-town is a go-to strategy would be terrible.
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alright fine.
/in
one more.
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I'm unfortunately going to have to /out, I just realized that I'm signed up for four games that are all starting soon and that's a recipe for disaster.
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Bump? We have 9 with mail-mi.
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Available if need be.
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Technically I'm only a vet if I roll scum. If I roll town I should still count as a newbie.
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I'm still available here too.
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We're starting on Monday, because jotheonah said he wasn't here until then. Also, the friend I mentioned earlier said they were too busy a couple of weeks ago, but since it's been a while, I asked her again. So WW, you may lose your spot depending on what happens...
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I`m back! Missed me much? Of course you did!
How long is night 0 / PM confirmation?
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I`m back! Missed me much? Of course you did!
How long is night 0 / PM confirmation?
I've usually done it 24 hours.
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Jotheonah, as soon as you say you're ready the game will start.
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Why is the number 1 slot on the first page open? Is there an open spot?
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Why is the number 1 slot on the first page open? Is there an open spot?
I missed mail-mi, he's in there now.
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Jotheonah?
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Maybe pm him?
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Sorry guys I'm ready!
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THREAD LOCKED
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I'm still waiting on one confirmation. Once I get that, the game will start.
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I don't feel like writing flavor.
DAY 1 START
Vote Count 1.1
Not Voting (9): mail-mi, Infinite Duress, SK, Zappie, Twistedarcher, Hydrad, jotheonah, pacovf, Witherweaver
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends August 26th, 1:00 PM.
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Vote: SK for being the SK.
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Vote: WW
He's always scum. And in the improbable case that he isn't and we lynch him day one, it will be hilarious.
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Vote: Mail-mi
He's been lurking so hard this game. Hasn't even posted since we began. Super scummy
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Vote: pacovf
Look who already knows who the scum is.
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Vote: WW
He's always scum. And in the improbable case that he isn't and we lynch him day one, it will be hilarious.
Point.
vote: ww
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Newbie jumping on the bandwagon already?
Vote: Pacovf
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Newbie jumping on the bandwagon already?
Vote: Pacovf
I didn't jump on the bandwagon, I created it! Stop twisting the facts!
So we've got an obviously scummy player that first "misunderstands" the setup, re:
Vote: SK for being the SK.
(there's no SK in the setup) to accuse a newbie player, then OMGUS on another newbie player, knowing full well that lynching a newbie Day one is extremely poor form.
With all this information at my disposal, I feel extremely confident to vote: WW, and urge every other player to vote for him before his honeyed lies convince you otherwise.
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Is it normal to just vote for someone random like the all vote before this?
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Is it normal to just vote for someone random like the all vote before this?
I don't know, but Witherweaver is furiously voting for newbies, so for self-preservation, I recommend that you preemptively vote against him. Just sayin'.
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Is it normal to just vote for someone random like the all vote before this?
Basically, the game needs to get started somehow. There are likely many theories/arguments/opinions/etc. for how to start a Mafia game, but one way is called random voting stage (RVS). Basically, you vote for random players, usually by giving some kind of nonserious reasons. Eventually, someone starts to form a real read or has a real reason and makes a real vote, and then you start to leaving RVS and proceed to the regular game.
Basically, it's a way to get the ball rolling.
In some games, where the setup is more complicated, RVS is interrupted by theory/setup talk.
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Newbie jumping on the bandwagon already?
Vote: Pacovf
I didn't jump on the bandwagon, I created it! Stop twisting the facts!
Bandwagon is the wrong word. I mean going along with "ha ha WW is always scum!" when it's your first game you ever played.
So we've got an obviously scummy player that first "misunderstands" the setup, re:
Vote: SK for being the SK.
(there's no SK in the setup) to accuse a newbie player, then OMGUS on another newbie player, knowing full well that lynching a newbie Day one is extremely poor form.
With all this information at my disposal, I feel extremely confident to vote: WW, and urge every other player to vote for him before his honeyed lies convince you otherwise.
And I know you know this, but for the benefit of the other players, "SK" stands for "Serial Killer," which is a role that can be used for Mafia, but isn't in this one. So my vote for SK for being a SK is an example of a joking RVS.
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So, here's an example of a real vote, indicating at least I am leaving RVS:
Pacovf has never played before (I'm assuming, he's in bold on the player list), but this quote
He's always scum. And in the improbable case that he isn't and we lynch him day one, it will be hilarious.
(about me) is the kind of thing someone that has played with me a few times would say. This indicates to me that he has had discussion with other people about me rolling scum some 8 times in a row in my first 9 games. This indicates to me that he's been talking with a more veteran player, which indicates he has a QT. Ergo, Pacovf is scum, and his partner is a vet.
Vote: Pacovf (Real vote).
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So, here's an example of a real vote, indicating at least I am leaving RVS:
Pacovf has never played before (I'm assuming, he's in bold on the player list), but this quote
He's always scum. And in the improbable case that he isn't and we lynch him day one, it will be hilarious.
(about me) is the kind of thing someone that has played with me a few times would say. This indicates to me that he has had discussion with other people about me rolling scum some 8 times in a row in my first 9 games. This indicates to me that he's been talking with a more veteran player, which indicates he has a QT. Ergo, Pacovf is scum, and his partner is a vet.
Vote: Pacovf (Real vote).
That's nice thinking! Unfortunately, the fact that you are always scum permeates this forum in every place and direction (in a homogeneous and isotropic way, if you will), so I didn't require to get info from a QT to know that you have always rolled scum lately.
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And, see, there's an example of buddying me by using a bit of a pun to try to get on my good side. Buddying is classic scum tactics.
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And, see, there's an example of buddying me by using a bit of a pun to try to get on my good side. Buddying is classic scum tactics.
Now you are back to RVS? I haven't unvoted, you know.
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fastest RVS ever! I love it!
Wagon! Wagon!
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So, here's an example of a real vote, indicating at least I am leaving RVS:
Pacovf has never played before (I'm assuming, he's in bold on the player list), but this quote
He's always scum. And in the improbable case that he isn't and we lynch him day one, it will be hilarious.
(about me) is the kind of thing someone that has played with me a few times would say. This indicates to me that he has had discussion with other people about me rolling scum some 8 times in a row in my first 9 games. This indicates to me that he's been talking with a more veteran player, which indicates he has a QT. Ergo, Pacovf is scum, and his partner is a vet.
Vote: Pacovf (Real vote).
Well this is a goat stretch, he could have just read another thread..
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It's possible. Or he could not have.
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Right but are you really suggesting that it's more likely he was told that information by a scum teammate, as opposed to him just reading a thread? Cuz if it's N0, I don't know how likely it is for scum to say "btw, Witherweaver's been scum like 9 times in a row!". I mean it's definitely not out of the question but it seems less likely than him just reading another thread. Right now your vote is suggesting that it's more likely, which just seems like a really big stretch of a vote for me (and you specifically made sure we all knew it wasn't RVS, as well)
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Right but are you really suggesting that it's more likely he was told that information by a scum teammate, as opposed to him just reading a thread? Cuz if it's N0, I don't know how likely it is for scum to say "btw, Witherweaver's been scum like 9 times in a row!". I mean it's definitely not out of the question but it seems less likely than him just reading another thread. Right now your vote is suggesting that it's more likely, which just seems like a really big stretch of a vote for me (and you specifically made sure we all knew it wasn't RVS, as well)
I think it's possible it came up in casual conversation.
I also don't recall seeing him in any speccy threads or anything.
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I was also more willing to go forward with a nonsolid case to illustrate an example of how to get out of RVS, since I had previously brought it up. You're right that it's not rock-solid or anything, but I certainly think it's good enough for first day of Day 1, and it will help move the game along.
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It's possible. Or he could not have.
But really, the most likely person to tell him that is you.
I'm leaving my vote on you.
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It's possible. Or he could not have.
But really, the most likely person to tell him that is you.
I'm leaving my vote on you.
Huh, that's actually a good point. It happens to not be true, though.
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What I like about WW's stupid theory is that if we lynch pacovf and he DOES come up scum, then we know to look to a veteran as his partner.
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I can imagine that lynching a random player is better than following others, as the mafia can quickly group up and vote the same person.
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Right but are you really suggesting that it's more likely he was told that information by a scum teammate, as opposed to him just reading a thread? Cuz if it's N0, I don't know how likely it is for scum to say "btw, Witherweaver's been scum like 9 times in a row!". I mean it's definitely not out of the question but it seems less likely than him just reading another thread. Right now your vote is suggesting that it's more likely, which just seems like a really big stretch of a vote for me (and you specifically made sure we all knew it wasn't RVS, as well)
I think it's possible it came up in casual conversation.
I also don't recall seeing him in any speccy threads or anything.
I haven't been in any speccy, but I've vaguely followed along some of the latest Mafia games. I think Robz made a joke somewhere about WW being contacted to write the next Scum Handbook. Still, there's jokes about WW's scuminess even outside the Mafia Games board.
It's possible. Or he could not have.
But really, the most likely person to tell him that is you.
I'm leaving my vote on you.
Obviously I'm happy that you keep your vote on WW because why not, but I am not sure if your position makes any sense. If you believe that I have been coached to jump on WW because he's always scum, then you should vote for me, not for the person that most likely coached me. Conditional probabilities and all that.
fastest RVS ever! I love it!
Wagon! Wagon!
Could we please get more substance so that I can eventually switch my vote to you? Consider it delayed OMGUSing if you will.
I can imagine that lynching a random player is better than following others, as the mafia can quickly group up and vote the same person.
Completely agree, but how do you intend to lynch a random player without anyone following others at some point, though?
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It's possible. Or he could not have.
But really, the most likely person to tell him that is you.
I'm leaving my vote on you.
Obviously I'm happy that you keep your vote on WW because why not, but I am not sure if your position makes any sense. If you believe that I have been coached to jump on WW because he's always scum, then you should vote for me, not for the person that most likely coached me. Conditional probabilities and all that.
Just to be clear: I think Mail-mi's argument makes sense in a vacuum (that is, ignoring for a moment that I am town and as such haven't been coached by anyone to do anything); it's his reaction to that line of reasoning that doesn't make sense in my mind.
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I can imagine that lynching a random player is better than following others, as the mafia can quickly group up and vote the same person.
Yes you are kinda right as it's hard to get a correct lynch day one since scum can kinda shift the votes away from there team. The problem is you can't really vote randomly as people still have to agree to lynch that person. Let's say you randomly selected to lynch me. You would have to try and convince others to vote for me also. In which case they are trusting you so it's not random for them.
The only real way it could be random is by rolling a die and everyone voting the person. And while we might hit scum with that method we would lose any interactions between people which is very valuable in finding scum in the later days.
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fastest RVS ever! I love it!
Wagon! Wagon!
Could we please get more substance so that I can eventually switch my vote to you? Consider it delayed OMGUSing if you will.
Nah, I don't really do substance on day 1. But then, you don't really need substance to switch your vote, right?
It's possible. Or he could not have.
But really, the most likely person to tell him that is you.
I'm leaving my vote on you.
Obviously I'm happy that you keep your vote on WW because why not, but I am not sure if your position makes any sense. If you believe that I have been coached to jump on WW because he's always scum, then you should vote for me, not for the person that most likely coached me. Conditional probabilities and all that.
Just to be clear: I think Mail-mi's argument makes sense in a vacuum (that is, ignoring for a moment that I am town and as such haven't been coached by anyone to do anything); it's his reaction to that line of reasoning that doesn't make sense in my mind.
I more read mail-mi as saying that Witherweaver's argument was self-defeating because it implied that Witherweaver was scum, and was therefore a bad argument.
Personally, I find Witherweaver's argument so-so, but I'm finding your reaction to it a hair scummy. But just a hair. It's well in the realm of town defensiveness.
Actually the more I think about Witherweaver's case the lousier it seems. Say, just for random example, you're scum and TA is your partner. Why would he coach you to start out with a joke that wouldn't make sense for a newbie to make? It would just needlessly draw attention to you. AN actually more likely scenario is that you and WW are scum together and you planned a fight to start the day off with, hoping to point to it later if one of you got lynched, as evidence that you couldn't possibly be partners. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying that's more likely than WW's thing.
I want to hear more from the others, especially SK. So I will try to draw him or her out of hiding with a vote: SK.
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Makes sense.
Infinite Duress hasn't posted either since the game began, BTW. Infinite Duress is kind of a long pseudo, how can we shorten it?
Quick question: what timezone are you people in? I'm in Europe, are all of you in US timezones? You don't have to reply if you don't want to.
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I live in The Netherlands
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@Joth: I'm not saying he was coached to start out with a joke. I'm saying he's talking with a lot more comfort and familiarity than a newbie is, and joking in a familiar manner about things of which he doesn't have first-hand experience. He doesn't really sound like a first-time player. Of course, the explanation that he's simply been following around and reading games is an okay one. So is the explanation that he's been talking with someone else and some topics casually came up there, so he's not entering today as a "first poster".
He's also keen on the acronyms and vernacular.
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So is the explanation that he's been talking with someone else and some topics casually came up there, so he's not entering today as a "first poster".
I don't understand this.
He's also keen on the acronyms and vernacular.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0
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So is the explanation that he's been talking with someone else and some topics casually came up there, so he's not entering today as a "first poster".
I don't understand this.
He's also keen on the acronyms and vernacular.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0
Exactly the kind of link about which someone might say "oh, be sure to check this out so you know what people are talking about" in a QT.
And to the first point, I'm saying one explanation of how you're posting is that you spent some time reading games, looking over posts, etc. And that may very well be the truth. Another explanation is that you've already had a day or so to talk back and forth with people about things, so you came in prepared and with some background knowledge.
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He's also keen on the acronyms and vernacular.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0
Exactly the kind of link about which someone might say "oh, be sure to check this out so you know what people are talking about" in a QT. [/quote]
Oh, come on, that's just said in bad faith. That thread is stickied on the Mafia Games board. Anyway, I've said everything I had to say about this line of reasoning, and you yourself have admitted that it wasn't a solid case, so I'll just drop it for the time being.
I'd like to hear more from other people. vote: SK because only him and Mail-mi have votes on them (other than us two) right now, and I think Mail-mi is V/LA.
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Vote Count 1.2
mail-mi (1): Hydrad
pacovf (1): Witherweaver
SK (2): pacovf, jotheonah
Witherweaver (1): mail-mi
Not Voting (4): Infinite Duress, SK, Zappie, Twistedarcher
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends August 26th, 1:00 PM.
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I think there's a mistake in the vote count. Jotheonah is voting for SK.
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Bold requests to mods, right?
I think there's a mistake in the vote count. Jotheonah is voting for SK.
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Bah. Wrote stuff, but issues ensued. One sec.
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issues like ... you accidentally revealed your intense scumminess to the world and had to delete your post?
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Okay. For future reference, I am a guy. And I live in this place called the city of darkness.
Anyway, I think this is nonsense. We shouldn't lynch WW for supposedly being scum every time. We shoudnt lynch pacov for jumping on bandwagons or creating them or whatever. And we definitely shoulnt lynch me for my name. D1 Lynch is a lottery from what I've heard. I agree with pacov, lets drop this and do something important.
What? Important? This is RVS, so they say. Which means things wont be important until later. Well, they wont be AS important at least. And D1 lynch is a lottery, but that doesn't mean we should slack off and not do anything. We need to move people. Which makes me ask: Joth, why no substance D1?
I mean, no substance isnt helpful or town-friendly.
But…it isn't important. At all. None of this is. Isnt this what you guys call Actilurking? Or something like that…
I don't know. I'm new, so help me out here.
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issues like ... you accidentally revealed your intense scumminess to the world and had to delete your post?
It was my WiFi router, which was made by the devil.
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I'm pretty sure I just read something existential.
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I'm pretty sure I just read something existential.
I'm not sure what you mean.
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Okay. For future reference, I am a guy. And I live in this place called the city of darkness.
Anyway, I think this is nonsense. We shouldn't lynch WW for supposedly being scum every time. We shoudnt lynch pacov for jumping on bandwagons or creating them or whatever. And we definitely shoulnt lynch me for my name. D1 Lynch is a lottery from what I've heard. I agree with pacov, lets drop this and do something important.
What? Important? This is RVS, so they say. Which means things wont be important until later. Well, they wont be AS important at least. And D1 lynch is a lottery, but that doesn't mean we should slack off and not do anything. We need to move people. Which makes me ask: Joth, why no substance D1?
I mean, no substance isnt helpful or town-friendly.
But…it isn't important. At all. None of this is. Isnt this what you guys call Actilurking? Or something like that…
I don't know. I'm new, so help me out here.
One thing I will point out is that even if ww and Pavlov are both town. What they are doing is good for the game. We are moving past the rvs stage of the game and starting actual votes up. Personally I think it's entirely reasonable that pacov just read up on how the game works as that's what I did for my first game. But it does make me suspect him now.
But what ww is doing is good because we are starting to get peoples actual opinions on where they stand with if pacov being scum or not. Now right now pacov isn't in any danger of dying ww is just trying to get the game going.
Hopefully I have explained this properly
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You have. In that case…I don't think pacov is scum. Other than that, I have nothing. I still am wondering why Joth doesn't give things and stuff D1, that isnt helpful, right?
It is probably cause there IS no substance D1. But it looks like there is…
Yeah, I dunno, Joth. Why no substance?
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Day one end on aug 16 right and not 26? and the time indication is greenwich time or something else?
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Day one end on aug 16 right and not 26? and the time indication is greenwich time or something else?
Forum time, which is EST.
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Day one end on aug 16 right and not 26? and the time indication is greenwich time or something else?
I believe day one will end on the 26th as this is a newbie game I think he gave us extra time. But if we lynch someone before then the day will end right then.
Also the time is the forum time I believe. For reference I think it's 12:18pm forum time right now
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Wait…D1 ends on the 16th? Its the 15th.
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Bold requests to mods, right?
I think there's a mistake in the vote count. Jotheonah is voting for SK.
Fixed.
Day one end on aug 16 right and not 26? and the time indication is greenwich time or something else?
From the OP:
This game will have 12-day days and 48-hour nights.
So Day 1 does end on the 26th.
Time is Forum Time (FT), which is EST.
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One thing I will say. I do not think ww and pacov are a scum team. One of them might be scum but it doesn't feel like they are both scum.
I want to hear from infinite also. If he's lurking that gives me a scum feeling because new scum sometimes don't know what to say and will just try to hide by not posting
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Everybody, my username is pacovf, with an "f" after the "v". "pavlov" was a funny mispell, you can call me that if you want.
You have. In that case…I don't think pacov is scum. Other than that, I have nothing. I still am wondering why Joth doesn't give things and stuff D1, that isnt helpful, right?
It is probably cause there IS no substance D1. But it looks like there is…
Yeah, I dunno, Joth. Why no substance?
Why are you so fixed on Joth? He's a bit jokey, but he has also written a reasonably insightful post not so long ago about WW's case on me; most people haven't yet written anything half as thought out. Maybe you are just attacking him because he voted for you?
One thing I will say. I do not think ww and pacov are a scum team. One of them might be scum but it doesn't feel like they are both scum.
I want to hear from infinite also. If he's lurking that gives me a scum feeling because new scum sometimes don't know what to say and will just try to hide by not posting
Apparently, if you believe WW's argument about why I am scum, he becomes a likely scum partner of mine. So if you believe that one of us, but not both, are scum, WW becomes the most likely suspect.
Agree that it would be nice to also hear from Infinite Duress.
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Nononono you misunderstand me, pavlov. I am confused with Joth. I don't care that he voted me. Well, I do care, but I know Im not in danger of being lynched. And he voted for me because I hadn't posted yet. And now I have.
I am confused because he says he does not give stuff D1. I suppose that was a joke then?
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You have. In that case…I don't think pacov is scum. Other than that, I have nothing. I still am wondering why Joth doesn't give things and stuff D1, that isnt helpful, right?
It is probably cause there IS no substance D1. But it looks like there is…
Yeah, I dunno, Joth. Why no substance?
I was being a little flip. I try hard to participate in day 1, but, as you pointed out above, day 1 is a crock. It's the hardest part of a mafia game to play in my opinion. And other people are better at day 1 then I am. So I tend to just have a "just get through it, have a lynch we don't feel terrible about" attitude.
I will say, I think it behooves you on day 1 to vote early and vote often. Wagons are powerful. They draw out sincere, emotional reactions. If we're very lucky, an early wagon on scum will put them on tilt, cause them to react over-the-top defensively, and land us a real case. If we're less lucky, we still learn a lot from who defends who, when people jump on, etc., etc. So there's a reason I've only voted so far for people who already have votes on them.
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I see. Suppose that makes sense. Vote: Mail-mi then.
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Apparently, if you believe WW's argument about why I am scum, he becomes a likely scum partner of mine. So if you believe that one of us, but not both, are scum, WW becomes the most likely suspect.
Agree that it would be nice to also hear from Infinite Duress.
Ya I understand the point that ww could have told you and that you are arguing with each other. But I guess you can call it shut feeling. How you are interacting with each other feels as if you are both arguing and not putting up a show. That's just how I feel about it
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I will say, I think it behooves you on day 1 to vote early and vote often. Wagons are powerful. They draw out sincere, emotional reactions. If we're very lucky, an early wagon on scum will put them on tilt, cause them to react over-the-top defensively, and land us a real case. If we're less lucky, we still learn a lot from who defends who, when people jump on, etc., etc. So there's a reason I've only voted so far for people who already have votes on them.
2 questions:
- Why does/should scum react more defensively than town? Scum should do its best to play as if they were town.
- More importantly, I don't understand how you reach the conclusion that you should only vote for people who already have votes on them (also, you voted for SK, who didn't have any vote on him).
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I will say, I think it behooves you on day 1 to vote early and vote often. Wagons are powerful. They draw out sincere, emotional reactions. If we're very lucky, an early wagon on scum will put them on tilt, cause them to react over-the-top defensively, and land us a real case. If we're less lucky, we still learn a lot from who defends who, when people jump on, etc., etc. So there's a reason I've only voted so far for people who already have votes on them.
2 questions:
- Why does/should scum react more defensively than town? Scum should do its best to play as if they were town.
- More importantly, I don't understand how you reach the conclusion that you should only vote for people who already have votes on them (also, you voted for SK, who didn't have any vote on him).
Scum really shouldn't act more defensive but sometimes they accidentally do. You try to play scum as you would town but it becomes harder because you know who is on who's team. So when you form a read on someone who is town it can be harder because you know those reasons are false. Also you know who you teammates are and that can influence your votes more then you think and sometimes it makes it obvious that people are a team.
Although ww should really answer this as he's had probably the most experience playing scum lately out of every here
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WW RVS'd for SK, so I thought he had a vote on him. Maybe he moved his vote to you already so I was wrong?
I have answers to your questions, but I've already said too much. There's really no need to coach scum on how to play the game better right now, and that's what my answer would do.
I never said only vote for people with votes on them. But wagons are good, and that's how you get wagons.
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I have answers to your questions, but I've already said too much. There's really no need to coach scum on how to play the game better right now, and that's what my answer would do.
That's sensible. Also interesting. You are subtly trying to plant in our heads the notion that you don't want to share this information because scum might not know it, i.e., because you did not share it in the Mafia QT, because you are not scum.
I am not saying this makes you look scummy. I am saying it is an interesting way to answer my question.
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I will say, I think it behooves you on day 1 to vote early and vote often. Wagons are powerful. They draw out sincere, emotional reactions. If we're very lucky, an early wagon on scum will put them on tilt, cause them to react over-the-top defensively, and land us a real case. If we're less lucky, we still learn a lot from who defends who, when people jump on, etc., etc. So there's a reason I've only voted so far for people who already have votes on them.
2 questions:
- Why does/should scum react more defensively than town? Scum should do its best to play as if they were town.
- More importantly, I don't understand how you reach the conclusion that you should only vote for people who already have votes on them (also, you voted for SK, who didn't have any vote on him).
It's not so trivial to emulate what you would do in another situation, because you aren't in that situation. And, of course, a first-time player that were scum here would not have played Town before, so would simply have to imagine how they would act.
Some players are defensively no matter what, but in general when you're scum you are consciously and subconsciously aware that you're hiding information and risk getting caught. That cases you to naturally be on the defensive. Whether it shows depends on the individual player, but in general you would feel pressure a little more as scum.
Also, like Joth said, wagons are generally good. If you want to test how someone will react, one vote may not give a lot of info, but three or four might get the person to react in a certain way that can give you a hint as to whether they're Town or Scum.
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It's not so trivial to emulate what you would do in another situation, because you aren't in that situation. And, of course, a first-time player that were scum here would not have played Town before, so would simply have to imagine how they would act.
That's actually a very good point that I hadn't thought about, but it only works on newbies, and I am unwilling to put newbies under too much pressure D1. All in all, the more you talk, the more people will think that you are scum, since everyone is paranoid; they will eventually find a reason to lynch you*. So if we put too much pressure on newbies, we will lynch one today, and well D1 doesn't play at all like following days, what's the point of being in a newbie game if you don't get to experience the full game.
*The other side of the coin is that, the more everybody talks, the more likely it is that we lynch scum, because he have more information.
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It's not so trivial to emulate what you would do in another situation, because you aren't in that situation. And, of course, a first-time player that were scum here would not have played Town before, so would simply have to imagine how they would act.
That's actually a very good point that I hadn't thought about, but it only works on newbies, and I am unwilling to put newbies under too much pressure D1. All in all, the more you talk, the more people will think that you are scum, since everyone is paranoid; they will eventually find a reason to lynch you*. So if we put too much pressure on newbies, we will lynch one today, and well D1 doesn't play at all like following days, what's the point of being in a newbie game if you don't get to experience the full game.
*The other side of the coin is that, the more everybody talks, the more likely it is that we lynch scum, because he have more information.
I don't get it, have you played on other forums before? This is your first game here, right? Or am I mistaken?
It's not necessarily true that "the more you talk, the more people will think that you are scum". Some times it becomes pretty clear that a person is Town, enough that you all but write them off until the end of the game. It happened with me and Volt my very first (newbie) game.
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Am I allowed to pm a person about the game as a venilla town?
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Am I allowed to pm a person about the game as a venilla town?
You are not allowed to talk about an ongoing game in any form with anyone outside this thread. Including real life (if you happened to be playing with someone you know).
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Am I allowed to pm a person about the game as a venilla town?
From the rules:
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it. Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
So no.
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It's not so trivial to emulate what you would do in another situation, because you aren't in that situation. And, of course, a first-time player that were scum here would not have played Town before, so would simply have to imagine how they would act.
That's actually a very good point that I hadn't thought about, but it only works on newbies, and I am unwilling to put newbies under too much pressure D1. All in all, the more you talk, the more people will think that you are scum, since everyone is paranoid; they will eventually find a reason to lynch you*. So if we put too much pressure on newbies, we will lynch one today, and well D1 doesn't play at all like following days, what's the point of being in a newbie game if you don't get to experience the full game.
*The other side of the coin is that, the more everybody talks, the more likely it is that we lynch scum, because he have more information.
I don't get it, have you played on other forums before? This is your first game here, right? Or am I mistaken?
It's not necessarily true that "the more you talk, the more people will think that you are scum". Some times it becomes pretty clear that a person is Town, enough that you all but write them off until the end of the game. It happened with me and Volt my very first (newbie) game.
First mafia game PBF I have ever participated in, here or elsewhere. I should rephrase myself: if you don't speak, you can't say anything incriminating, so you can't look scummy. Of course, if you lurk too much, people will vote for you just in case, but they won't have a real case on you, other than "he's been lurking".
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It's not so trivial to emulate what you would do in another situation, because you aren't in that situation. And, of course, a first-time player that were scum here would not have played Town before, so would simply have to imagine how they would act.
That's actually a very good point that I hadn't thought about, but it only works on newbies, and I am unwilling to put newbies under too much pressure D1. All in all, the more you talk, the more people will think that you are scum, since everyone is paranoid; they will eventually find a reason to lynch you*. So if we put too much pressure on newbies, we will lynch one today, and well D1 doesn't play at all like following days, what's the point of being in a newbie game if you don't get to experience the full game.
*The other side of the coin is that, the more everybody talks, the more likely it is that we lynch scum, because he have more information.
I don't get it, have you played on other forums before? This is your first game here, right? Or am I mistaken?
It's not necessarily true that "the more you talk, the more people will think that you are scum". Some times it becomes pretty clear that a person is Town, enough that you all but write them off until the end of the game. It happened with me and Volt my very first (newbie) game.
First mafia game PBF I have ever participated in, here or elsewhere. I should rephrase myself: if you don't speak, you can't say anything incriminating, so you can't look scummy. Of course, if you lurk too much, people will vote for you just in case, but they won't have a real case on you, other than "he's been lurking".
Also, I have no idea about strategy, so I'm just saying things that seem logical to me. Whether or not they apply remains to be seen.
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Am I allowed to pm a person about the game as a venilla town?
So, huh, am I the only one that thinks that it is unfortunate that Zappie asked this question?
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Am I allowed to pm a person about the game as a venilla town?
So, huh, am I the only one that thinks that it is unfortunate that Zappie asked this question?
Better to ask then to assume wrongly and accidentally cheat! What are you suggesting?
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Am I allowed to pm a person about the game as a venilla town?
So, huh, am I the only one that thinks that it is unfortunate that Zappie asked this question?
I think it's unfortunate. I seriously doubt he would do this as a town PR (like, 0.00000000000001% chance), so either he's a VT or he was coached to "townslip" (or he came up with the idea himself). The former is probably more likely, and this is bad because it let's scum narrow down who to kill.
Presumably, scum knows the setup so they know what PRs we have. (Someone can correct me on this, I didn't check it very carefully. Do all six configurations have unique scum PRs?)
No one else "slip" your role (or lack thereof), please. Unless you're scum, in which case slip away.
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Though, if he was a town PR, that would be a pretty cool play.
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Am I allowed to pm a person about the game as a venilla town?
So, huh, am I the only one that thinks that it is unfortunate that Zappie asked this question?
I think it's unfortunate. I seriously doubt he would do this as a town PR (like, 0.00000000000001% chance), so either he's a VT or he was coached to "townslip" (or he came up with the idea himself). The former is probably more likely, and this is bad because it let's scum narrow down who to kill.
Oh wow, I didn't even notice he said "as a vanilla town" until I re-read the quote. That definitely changes my analysis of the situation.
No, my question would rather be: under what circumstances would you want to pm someone, D1? Personally, whatever I ask, I won't trust the answer, because I don't know the alignment of the person I pm. Not only that, but unless you've got a plan in mind, you want every body to read the answer you are given, because more information is always good for town. No, the only reason I can think of that would make me want to pm someone is if I know his alignment... which in this setup can only happen if you are scum.
Before I read the part about "as vanilla townie", I thought this was scum checking if he could ask for advice from his scumpartners during the day via pm.
Now that I've read the quote correctly, I think this is a constructed "townslip" by scum.
The reason why I said this is unfortunate is because I don't want to lynch a newbie D1.*
*Yes that includes me, but I am not going to vote for myself anyway so who cares.
Presumably, scum knows the setup so they know what PRs we have. (Someone can correct me on this, I didn't check it very carefully. Do all six configurations have unique scum PRs?)
There are six possible setups. Scum doesn't know the exact setup: if they have a roleblocker they know there are only two possible setups, otherwise there are four. Town PRs know there are only two possible setups too.
English failed me when trying to explain this, hopefully it is somewhat clear.
Also, to avoid further slips one way or another:
Can we always ask questions about the rules and/or setup via PM to the mod?
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yeah that part went right over my head too
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Eh, town points to Joth and Pacovf; generally scum are on the look for PR slips. But more to Joth and Pacovf, as a new scum player might not realize that's what they're supposed to be doing.
I'm inclined to think it's genuine town.
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Alright lazy me pulled up the cases:
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
Interesting, actually.. only scum configurations are 2 Mafia Goons or 1 Mafia Goon 1 Mafia Roleblocker. So they actually don't know what they're facing except for whether they're in Roleblocker/No Roleblocker scenario.
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i don't like it.
vote: Zappie
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Town read on ww thus far
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Town read on ww thus far
Why?
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I think zappie is actually town that asked a question.
With this my top 2 scum reads right now I would say is mailmi and infinite as both of them haven't said much at all. I think mailmi might just be vla though as he's usually pretty active.
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Actually rereading twisted archer I get a scum vibe from him too. He's not posting much and when he is it doesn't feel like his trying to find scum. Just more like posting some info that doesn't really state where he thinks scum is.
So I guess that means that's where I think the scum team is at the moment
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Can we always ask questions about the rules and/or setup via PM to the mod?
Yes.
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Okay, so the popular belief now is that Zappie is scum, and trying to get advice from his partner. This confuses me. The mafia communicate via QT, yes? And they may not use it in the day, yes? And usually (at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious)) the mod does the "Thread Locked" thing or whatever. Wouldn't that be enough to let Zappie know that the mod doesn't want them to communicate during the day? Also, the VT thing looks like a trick. A pretty obvious trick. What could he, as a VT, possibly want to say? Vote: Zappie
Unvote. What if he is just town and made a mistake? He's a newbie just like me, and it sounds like something I would do.
Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie
I'm curious as to why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappie.
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Okay, so the popular belief now is that Zappie is scum, and trying to get advice from his partner. This confuses me. The mafia communicate via QT, yes? And they may not use it in the day, yes? And usually (at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious)) the mod does the "Thread Locked" thing or whatever. Wouldn't that be enough to let Zappie know that the mod doesn't want them to communicate during the day? Also, the VT thing looks like a trick. A pretty obvious trick. What could he, as a VT, possibly want to say? Vote: Zappie
Unvote. What if he is just town and made a mistake? He's a newbie just like me, and it sounds like something I would do.
Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie
I'm curious as to why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappie.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's the popular opinion, both Hydrad and witherweaver think this is a townslip. At first I was unwilling to vote: Zappie (L-2 if I am not mistaken) because he's a newbie, but since it seems like not everybody shares my opinion that it was an obvious scum ploy, I think it is worth pursuing this argument.
Zappie, why did you want to pm another player? It makes no sense to me.
Also, Infinite Duress, if you are reading this, please say something. Share your opinion on anything that has happened up to this point! Even if you think that it won't add anything to the discussion!
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Zappie, who did you want to PM?
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(at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious))
What's this ehunt thing? Do you have a link?
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Vote: SK
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I must admit that I didn't know that my question would trigger so much votes and upsets.
I know this game from IRL, and there I have the habit to talk to the people beside me, trying to trigger a 'mafia-slip' as you call it I think.
So I asked if this kind of thing is allowed/happens online too.
The nice thing is that, the result of the question, the replies and talk, is exactly what you want on day 1 right? :)
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Well, yeah, generating reactions is good... but convincing other people that you are scum isn't. ??? Ok, walk me through your thought process, was there anyone you specifically wanted to talk to?
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Vote: SK
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vote: ID he needs to talk.
Vote: SK
Vote: SK
reasons?
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Ya I'm interested in these sk votes without any reasons behind them
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his response/reaction to the town slip thing.
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What exactly is scummy in his response? Isn't it basically the same as mine?
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What exactly is scummy in his response? Isn't it basically the same as mine?
I'm not sure about ww but personally I'm getting a town read on you. You feel like town that is actively trying to find scum.
SKs post doesn't really feel scummy to me though so I'm interested in what part of it made ww suspicious
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He's being overly careful about covering his tracks.
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He's being overly careful about covering his tracks.
So both you and TA decide to go the other way around and vote without explaining anything at all? ???
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Well, yeah, generating reactions is good... but convincing other people that you are scum isn't. ??? Ok, walk me through your thought process, was there anyone you specifically wanted to talk to?
No, just like I said "I know this game from IRL, and there I have the habit to talk to the people beside me, trying to trigger a 'mafia-slip' as you call it I think.
So I asked if this kind of thing is allowed/happens online too."
IRL I say something like: i am town, are you too? and if there is no immediate response sometimes you can tell they are 'scum'. Of course, i know, you can't do this online,but thats why i asked about pms.
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He's being overly careful about covering his tracks.
So both you and TA decide to go the other way around and vote without explaining anything at all? ???
So it's not always best to lay out everything you're thinking. Actually, I should have waited longer to vote at all to get more reactions. But here is the idea:
Let's assume Zappie is town for a second. He does something a little odd. Scum can see that they can push this and maybe get him lynched. But scum knows he's town, so they're going to be a little wary about aggressively pushing it, especially if no one else supports it. If there are four or five people that agree, then scum on the wagon isn't so singled out. So maybe one scum player would be a little aggressive towards him, but probably not both. Most likely, scum is going to set back and "feel out" how we react. If it looks pushable, they'll cast their support. But if it ever becomes undesirable, they want to be able to get off in an unsuspicious way. So, the scummiest response would be one that is a bit wishy-washy. "This definitely looks pretty scummy, but maybe not." Of course, scum is not going to say that, because it looks so weak. So, they use a lot of words to say that.
And the player that had such a response is SK. The other scum player probably said little or nothing about it, or initially came out accusing (which would be you, I believe).
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Vote Count 1.3
mail-mi (1): Hydrad
Zappie (3): jotheonah, SK, pacovf
SK (2): Twistedarcher, Witherweaver
Infinite Duress (1): mail-mi
Not Voting (2): Infinite Duress, Zappie
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends August 26th, 1:00 PM.
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He's being overly careful about covering his tracks.
So both you and TA decide to go the other way around and vote without explaining anything at all? ???
Yup basically.
I read the post and didn't have time to write a response out but wanted to get a vote down. The stream of consciousness seems fake to me.
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He's being overly careful about covering his tracks.
So both you and TA decide to go the other way around and vote without explaining anything at all? ???
So it's not always best to lay out everything you're thinking. Actually, I should have waited longer to vote at all to get more reactions. But here is the idea:
Let's assume Zappie is town for a second. He does something a little odd. Scum can see that they can push this and maybe get him lynched. But scum knows he's town, so they're going to be a little wary about aggressively pushing it, especially if no one else supports it. If there are four or five people that agree, then scum on the wagon isn't so singled out. So maybe one scum player would be a little aggressive towards him, but probably not both. Most likely, scum is going to set back and "feel out" how we react. If it looks pushable, they'll cast their support. But if it ever becomes undesirable, they want to be able to get off in an unsuspicious way. So, the scummiest response would be one that is a bit wishy-washy. "This definitely looks pretty scummy, but maybe not." Of course, scum is not going to say that, because it looks so weak. So, they use a lot of words to say that.
And the player that had such a response is SK. The other scum player probably said little or nothing about it, or initially came out accusing (which would be you, I believe).
Seems sensible, but then again the same could be said of poping a vote without any sort of explanation, isn't it? You see how people react (whether agreeing with you and providing arguments for, or disagreeing and providing arguments against), and then give the reasons that will make you look the least scummy.
I don't fully agree with your argument because reasons, but I'd take a piece of advice from you ("So it's not always best to lay out everything you're thinking") and wait for SK's answer to your argument.
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Flat out voting without stating your reasoning is usually a stronger statement then people going back and forth in there votes. At least that's how I see it
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I'm sorry about the double and triple posting. I know why we can't edit posts, but man do I wish we could, I'm always forgetting stuff.
Well, yeah, generating reactions is good... but convincing other people that you are scum isn't. ??? Ok, walk me through your thought process, was there anyone you specifically wanted to talk to?
No, just like I said "I know this game from IRL, and there I have the habit to talk to the people beside me, trying to trigger a 'mafia-slip' as you call it I think.
So I asked if this kind of thing is allowed/happens online too."
IRL I say something like: i am town, are you too? and if there is no immediate response sometimes you can tell they are 'scum'. Of course, i know, you can't do this online,but thats why i asked about pms.
Ok, I understand the tactic in real life. Let's assume that you could send PMs to other players. Give me an example of how you would try to draw a scumslip with a PM.
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He's being overly careful about covering his tracks.
So both you and TA decide to go the other way around and vote without explaining anything at all? ???
So it's not always best to lay out everything you're thinking. Actually, I should have waited longer to vote at all to get more reactions. But here is the idea:
Let's assume Zappie is town for a second. He does something a little odd. Scum can see that they can push this and maybe get him lynched. But scum knows he's town, so they're going to be a little wary about aggressively pushing it, especially if no one else supports it. If there are four or five people that agree, then scum on the wagon isn't so singled out. So maybe one scum player would be a little aggressive towards him, but probably not both. Most likely, scum is going to set back and "feel out" how we react. If it looks pushable, they'll cast their support. But if it ever becomes undesirable, they want to be able to get off in an unsuspicious way. So, the scummiest response would be one that is a bit wishy-washy. "This definitely looks pretty scummy, but maybe not." Of course, scum is not going to say that, because it looks so weak. So, they use a lot of words to say that.
And the player that had such a response is SK. The other scum player probably said little or nothing about it, or initially came out accusing (which would be you, I believe).
Seems sensible, but then again the same could be said of poping a vote without any sort of explanation, isn't it? You see how people react (whether agreeing with you and providing arguments for, or disagreeing and providing arguments against), and then give the reasons that will make you look the least scummy.
I don't fully agree with your argument because reasons, but I'd take a piece of advice from you ("So it's not always best to lay out everything you're thinking") and wait for SK's answer to your argument.
Yeah. Generally, though, scum wants to avoid not having explanations, because they get called out for that. So you feel you need to carefully justify things as scum, which leads to posts that are a bit constructed and overexplained. This is what I did a lot in my first scum game (Wheel of Time). Yuma caught me for it, and when I reread the game I can definitely see it.
It's not so important to justify everything as town, because, hey, you have nothing to hide. If someone doesn't like your explanation and votes you for it, then you know that they're the one that is incorrect (because you're town).
Of course, once something is known to be a town trait, scum has motivation to do it simply to emulate that.
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I'm sorry about the double and triple posting. I know why we can't edit posts, but man do I wish we could, I'm always forgetting stuff.
Well, yeah, generating reactions is good... but convincing other people that you are scum isn't. ??? Ok, walk me through your thought process, was there anyone you specifically wanted to talk to?
No, just like I said "I know this game from IRL, and there I have the habit to talk to the people beside me, trying to trigger a 'mafia-slip' as you call it I think.
So I asked if this kind of thing is allowed/happens online too."
IRL I say something like: i am town, are you too? and if there is no immediate response sometimes you can tell they are 'scum'. Of course, i know, you can't do this online,but thats why i asked about pms.
Ok, I understand the tactic in real life. Let's assume that you could send PMs to other players. Give me an example of how you would try to draw a scumslip with a PM.
Haven't thought about that, I wanted to know if it was a thing, and if others can do it too.
Thinking now, i can imagine that one can make a pact to get to later stages of the game or something like that, but again i did not think about this when i asked it.
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It's an answer, I guess...
Anyway, for the time being, Vote: Infinite Duress. Exactly zero posts since the game started.
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I can see either Zappie or SK, but I'm sticking with Zappie right now. In my first game as town I overexplained and was almost lynched for it, because I figured that stream of consciousness positing was harder to fake. SK's post sort of read similar to me I guess.
Request prod for Infinite Duress
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I can see either Zappie or SK, but I'm sticking with Zappie right now. In my first game as town I overexplained and was almost lynched for it, because I figured that stream of consciousness positing was harder to fake. SK's post sort of read similar to me I guess.
Request prod for Infinite Duress
So in your first game as town you did exactly what SK did. That's why you say you could lynch him today.
See a problem with your logic?
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Request prod for Infinite Duress
Prod sent.
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I can see either Zappie or SK, but I'm sticking with Zappie right now. In my first game as town I overexplained and was almost lynched for it, because I figured that stream of consciousness positing was harder to fake. SK's post sort of read similar to me I guess.
Request prod for Infinite Duress
So in your first game as town you did exactly what SK did. That's why you say you could lynch him today.
See a problem with your logic?
No, that's why I'm not changing my vote. But it's equally possible he's doing what TA and WW say. I'm just providing an alternate possible explanation.
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Where ehunt posted like seventeen times in a row? Priceless.
Oh, votes on me. Fun. Well, in response to WW, that makes sense. But think about it: lets say Zappie is town. I am simply putting a bit of pressure on him. And Joth said wagons were powerful, so yeah. It looked like a scumslip to me, so I jumped on it once I saw the reasoning behind it. I cant say that I didn't react the way you said I did, but to be frank, if Zappie is scum, thats also how the town would react. (assuming Zappie is scum)
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Hmm. Zappies defense was sort of interesting. I guess its buyable, but I'm still wondering. I mean, he specified that he was VT for seemingly no reason. I guess he goes go down a bit, but Im still leaning towards scum.
Its nice to have a clear wagon we can analyze. I do want to see more from Mail-mi and Infinite Duress.
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I would really like to hear from Infinite Duress, but I guess he might not be on during the week-end. The last time he was active was Aug 13, before the game started... If he hasn't said anything by Monday night, I guess I'll do a reread and try to find something new, I don't have any strong scum reads right now, or rather not strong enough to lynch a newbie D1.
In the meantime, I would like to hear Mail-mi's and Hydrad's opinion on the SK case, I think they haven't said anything about it yet. Oh and I would be interested in joth's read on me so far, if that's something I can ask.
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I've been going back and forth on you. It's always hard to get a read on a new person. Why do you ask?
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On the subject of the sk case I will say his post does seem more like a scum move then town. The only reason I'm not voting for him is because I felt the same way in my first few ges. And I didn't realize I was doing it until people told me how hedgy I was being. So I say it gives him scum points but I'm not convinced enough to vote on him yet
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I've been going back and forth on you. It's always hard to get a read on a new person. Why do you ask?
Mmm... I had a theory, but I've noticed that I don't have enough data yet to confirm it. I'll answer later D1.
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On the subject of the sk case I will say his post does seem more like a scum move then town. The only reason I'm not voting for him is because I felt the same way in my first few ges. And I didn't realize I was doing it until people told me how hedgy I was being. So I say it gives him scum points but I'm not convinced enough to vote on him yet
Apparently you're still being hedgy :p
Gut read on sk, town or scum, if you had to pick right now -- which one is it?
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On the subject of the sk case I will say his post does seem more like a scum move then town. The only reason I'm not voting for him is because I felt the same way in my first few ges. And I didn't realize I was doing it until people told me how hedgy I was being. So I say it gives him scum points but I'm not convinced enough to vote on him yet
Apparently you're still being hedgy :p
Gut read on sk, town or scum, if you had to pick right now -- which one is it?
Still scum. I believe even before that post I said I thought he was scum too. The biggest reason I'm not voting for him is that I like my mailmi vote more. He seems like he's not even in this game which is weird to me. Mailmi are you vla and I've missed the post about it?
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Ah never mind I see your in school now. That will make it hard to read what you doing. With that in mind I will Vote:sk
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Hmmm I don't like how easily Hydrad moved his vote and was able to directly answer my question. His initial post sounded unsure as to whether SK was town or scum -- he could see both sides. But when asked he definitively picked a side -- I'd suspect scum would 100% pick a side there, while town might just say "I'm really unsure, I'd think scum but I am unsure at this point". It just reads like Hydrad was presented with a question and then decided "since town is asking me a question, I NEED to give an answer one way or the other."
Vote: Hydrad
Can we get a replacement for Infinite Duress if he still hasn't shown up? Sooner is better, it will be tougher for someone replacing in if there's only a day or two left before deadline.
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Pacovf gets a D1 pass for activity alone, I don't wanna lynch him today. Don't wanna lynch WW either.
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I don't believe I want to lynch Pacovf either. I've moved towards a bit of a town read on him.
I'm leaning town on Hydrad, too.
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Pacovf gets a D1 pass for activity alone, I don't wanna lynch him today. Don't wanna lynch WW either.
Do you have a townread on either of us, or you just "don't want to lynch us"? If the latter, you've explained why you don't want to lynch me, but not WW.
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Is there any way to use the search function (or otherwise) to get all the posts made by one person in a thread?
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Is there any way to use the search function (or otherwise) to get all the posts made by one person in a thread?
For someone who has their Goko username listed, the easiest way is alt+F through "Goko Username:Twistedarcher" for a certain player.
I have a townier read on WW, I thought I expressed that earlier but I couldn't find the post so I guess not, oops. But yeah, I have a townier read on him and don't want to lynch him.
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Ctrl+F, not alt+F
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Pacovf gets a D1 pass for activity alone, I don't wanna lynch him today. Don't wanna lynch WW either.
Do you have a townread on either of us, or you just "don't want to lynch us"? If the latter, you've explained why you don't want to lynch me, but not WW.
If you lynch all the active people it makes for an awkward last couple game days.
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Pacovf gets a D1 pass for activity alone, I don't wanna lynch him today. Don't wanna lynch WW either.
That motivates me to post too :)
But its just pretty hard to come up with own arguments. I will reread some post i think and go alongside something that sounds at least a little appealing.
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Pacovf gets a D1 pass for activity alone, I don't wanna lynch him today. Don't wanna lynch WW either.
That motivates me to post too :)
But its just pretty hard to come up with own arguments. I will reread some post i think and go alongside something that sounds at least a little appealing.
I can come up with an argument for you! Tell me who your scumpartner is, that would be quite appealing.
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Ctrl+F, not alt+F
That sounds like you want me to click on Pages: All beforehand, which seems like it will quickly become a bad idea, and I was talking about the forum search function, not my OS search function.
How do people do post counts, for example?
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Ctrl+F, not alt+F
That sounds like you want me to click on Pages: All beforehand, which seems like it will quickly become a bad idea, and I was talking about the forum search function, not my OS search function.
How do people do post counts, for example?
Ctrl+F.
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Ctrl+F, not alt+F
That sounds like you want me to click on Pages: All beforehand, which seems like it will quickly become a bad idea, and I was talking about the forum search function, not my OS search function.
How do people do post counts, for example?
It's not impractical unless you're on dialup or something.
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Ctrl+F, not alt+F
That sounds like you want me to click on Pages: All beforehand, which seems like it will quickly become a bad idea, and I was talking about the forum search function, not my OS search function.
How do people do post counts, for example?
Ctrl+F.
Really!? Somehow I feel a web developer somewhere is crying.
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Eevee has replaced Infinite Duress.
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Hi everyone!
It's late and I'm really tired, but I've also just read the thread and it's all fresh in my
mind, so here are my impressions.
Pacovf seems like a really smart dude. I have a townread on him, some of the observations seem like results of a towny lines of thinking.
I was totally null on TA until his post on Hydrad, but I like the case and the thought process seems towny, so town on him too, now.
Going to post this now and continue from laptop, I underestimated
how many minutes I'd waste by willingly
doing a large post from phone.
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WW I thought came off pretty scummy from the argument with pacofv, his suspicion just seemed baseless which isn't at all like him. On the other hand, identifying it as a scum mistake assumes WW would be the kind of player to get drawn into an argument where he doesn't believe in his side as scum from his first post, which I don't find too plausible, so I'm trying to ignore this feeling of scumminess.
Joth, his comment of not posting substance day 1 was obviously in jest, and he seems to be contributing fine. I don't know, he seems relaxed and himself, I'm not seeing anything incriminating.
Then, the scummy people.
I can totally see the argument for Zappy's fake townslip, it's one of the better day 1 cases. His explanation makes sense too, although the combination of being of asking a mod if sending a pm is allowed without having a specific pm in mind and nonchalantly claiming VT doesn't sit right with me. Unfortunate VT claims have a history of establishing a firmly towny images in newbie games, so I could totally see Zappy being coached into trying it, even if it's a bit of gambit.
SK's reaction to this was hands down the scummiest, so much so that I'd feel pretty comfortable (for day 1 standards) stating that exactly one of SK and Zappy is scum. I'm wrestling with whom I see as scummier, leaning on SK because what he did was a scummy action, whereas what we have with Zappy is a hypothesis that's tiptoeing the dangerous line of a scumslip argument.
Hydrad I thought had one weirdish post. I don't remember specifically what it was, but I remember thinking it portrayed a line of thinking that seemed unnatural for town, I'm sure it'll catch my eye again when I reread. Other than that, I'm null until TA's case, which pushed me into a scum read, although lesser than the one on SK/Zappy duo (well, a half of it anyways).
Computer says it's restarting in 5 minutes for updates, better post this before I lose it.
Oh, nothing on mail-mi. He hasn't posted much. I suck at reading him anyways. Scummier side of null for leaving me with no impressions.
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A wild Eevee appears!
Guys, learn the line, seriously.
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I had no idea how much I had missed simple 9 player games. Let the fun begin!
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I had no idea how much I had missed simple 9 player games. Let the fun begin!
You aren't voting, are you?
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Vote Count 1.4
Zappie (2): jotheonah, SK
SK (2): Witherweaver, Hydrad
Eevee [Infinite Duress] (2): mail-mi, pacovf
Hydrad (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting (2): Eevee, Zappie
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends August 26th, 1:00 PM.
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unvote
we have a replacement. hai eevee
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I still like my SK vote.
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I had no idea how much I had missed simple 9 player games. Let the fun begin!
You aren't voting, are you?
True, also easily fixed.
Vote: SK
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Lots of new info today. I have to think... After I go to sleep.
unvote for now. I was voting for ID before.
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I am leaning toward voting SK also, but I don't really want to L1 him yet. Looking forward to hearing more from pacovf tomorrow.
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Welcome eevee! Also a question you said your pretty sure there is a scum in either sk or zappie. Do you think there is a chance that they are both scum? Personally I feel like that is a low possibility but I wanted to see what you think.
Also anyone can answer this if they feel like it.
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Okay, so the popular belief now is that Zappie is scum, and trying to get advice from his partner. This confuses me. The mafia communicate via QT, yes? And they may not use it in the day, yes? And usually (at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious)) the mod does the "Thread Locked" thing or whatever. Wouldn't that be enough to let Zappie know that the mod doesn't want them to communicate during the day? Also, the VT thing looks like a trick. A pretty obvious trick. What could he, as a VT, possibly want to say? Vote: Zappie
Unvote. What if he is just town and made a mistake? He's a newbie just like me, and it sounds like something I would do.
Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie
I'm curious as to why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappie.
Okay, here we go.
When I posted this^^^, and many of my posts before and after this, you'll notice that the first little paragraph-type-thing is an argument. The next one is a rebuttal, and so on. I do this because it helps me think. When I posted my reaction, I was decided. I thought for sure that Zappie was scum. That's why the middle post was so small, I could hardly think of a rebuttal to what I had said.
If this method of doing stuff makes me look scummy, I guess I wont do it anymore. (Theres actually an interesting backstory as to why I do this, but I don't feel like writing much.)
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Welcome eevee! Also a question you said your pretty sure there is a scum in either sk or zappie. Do you think there is a chance that they are both scum? Personally I feel like that is a low possibility but I wanted to see what you think.
Also anyone can answer this if they feel like it.
No, I think it's an unlikely pair. Another unlikely pair
would be WW and pacovf.
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Vote Count 1.5
Zappie (2): jotheonah, SK
SK (3): Witherweaver, Hydrad, Eevee
Hydrad (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting (3): Zappie, mail-mi, pacovf
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends August 26th, 1:00 PM.
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Looking forward to hearing more from pacovf tomorrow.
I'll happily oblige. Some answers to the latest developments, in random order!
Okay, so the popular belief now is that Zappie is scum, and trying to get advice from his partner. This confuses me. The mafia communicate via QT, yes? And they may not use it in the day, yes? And usually (at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious)) the mod does the "Thread Locked" thing or whatever. Wouldn't that be enough to let Zappie know that the mod doesn't want them to communicate during the day? Also, the VT thing looks like a trick. A pretty obvious trick. What could he, as a VT, possibly want to say? Vote: Zappie
Unvote. What if he is just town and made a mistake? He's a newbie just like me, and it sounds like something I would do.
Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie
I'm curious as to why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappie.
Okay, here we go.
When I posted this^^^, and many of my posts before and after this, you'll notice that the first little paragraph-type-thing is an argument. The next one is a rebuttal, and so on. I do this because it helps me think. When I posted my reaction, I was decided. I thought for sure that Zappie was scum. That's why the middle post was so small, I could hardly think of a rebuttal to what I had said.
If this method of doing stuff makes me look scummy, I guess I wont do it anymore. (Theres actually an interesting backstory as to why I do this, but I don't feel like writing much.)
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with your post. Some people say that you are hedging your position, some say that the stream of consciousness looks fake. I don't see any of that, I see a fairly clear-cut position, your ending argument ("Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie") is very strong, and the way you explain how you get there is just a rhetoric device. No scum points.
I think the vets jumped on you because it's day one, there are no strong cases around, you do something that ticks too many boxes in the "scumhunting checklist", booyah, have a bandwagon.
But then you get some pressure and you reply these.
Where ehunt posted like seventeen times in a row? Priceless.
Oh, votes on me. Fun. Well, in response to WW, that makes sense. But think about it: lets say Zappie is town. I am simply putting a bit of pressure on him. And Joth said wagons were powerful, so yeah. It looked like a scumslip to me, so I jumped on it once I saw the reasoning behind it. I cant say that I didn't react the way you said I did, but to be frank, if Zappie is scum, thats also how the town would react. (assuming Zappie is scum)
Hmm. Zappies defense was sort of interesting. I guess its buyable, but I'm still wondering. I mean, he specified that he was VT for seemingly no reason. I guess he goes go down a bit, but Im still leaning towards scum.
Its nice to have a clear wagon we can analyze. I do want to see more from Mail-mi and Infinite Duress.
Maaaaaaaan you are not doing yourself any favours. I still don't want to lynch a newbie Day one (especially less so now that one of them has been replaced by a vet) so I won't push you more than this: you just muddied your read on Zappie, when it was very strong at first, minimized your decision to vote for him, hid behind joth, follow with a non-sequitur to turn attention away from you ("it's nice to have a clear wagon we can analyze"). Dude, you better start earning town points now. If it comes down to lynching you or no lynch, you just convinced me to hammer.
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Now I'm back to old news, but I think it's worth mentioning again: Zappie's (fake) townslip.
I've been thinking about it a bit more since his latest posts. Both WW and Hydrad thought it was a legitimate "townslip". In my opinion, even if Zappie is town, I don't think there was anything accidental about it, but that's not the point I am trying to make right now.
If Zappie does the fake townslip, and two other people believe it, there's at least one town involved that genuinely thinks it is a townslip (or else Zappie is town himself, and his post is genuine). Why do I mention this? To me, there was simply no way you could see it as anything else than a transparent constructed townslip by mafia. But if somehow some people think it's genuine, that means I am missing some piece of the equation. Either that, or WW and Hydrad are more naive than I think they are (or one of them is bold scum protecting his partner, which I find unlikely).
Gaaaah, I am having a lot of trouble analyzing the situation, Zappie's posts seem so haphazard... I guess I am not voting for him for the time being. That being said...
Pacovf gets a D1 pass for activity alone, I don't wanna lynch him today. Don't wanna lynch WW either.
That motivates me to post too :)
But its just pretty hard to come up with own arguments. I will reread some post i think and go alongside something that sounds at least a little appealing.
We're waaaaaaitiiiiiiiiing...
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Pacovf seems like a really smart dude.
D'awwwww. You handsome devil ;)
I'm null on Eevee for the time being. None of his reads are particularly outlandish. Correct me if I am wrong, but it's easier to catch scum by noticing how their arguments and positions evolve over time, so we don't have much on Eevee yet. It's nice to post your position on everybody though, that way it will take less time for us to develop a read on you.
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Vote Count 1.5
Zappie (2): jotheonah, SK
SK (2): Witherweaver, Hydrad, Eevee
Hydrad (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting (2): Zappie, mail-mi, pacovf
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends August 26th, 1:00 PM.
SK has 3 votes on him, and 3 people are not voting.
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A couple of comments before I say what I think on TA's case on Hydrad (I think that one requires a reread).
Joth seems to have come to the same conclusions I have up until now, sometimes before I posted them. He doesn't seem to be buddying me either. So he's my top town read right now.
I'm not confortable with how easily mail-mi is riding his V/LA. 5 posts since the game started, and from those one of them is RVS, 2 are empty.
WW is null. His starting case on me was weak and but he still pushed it a lot, but that could just be newtown WW testing me. Other than that, he has been very active, so town points for that.
Pacovf is obtown duh :P
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I could see joth being scum, more easily than say you or TA. Joth is playing the quintessential good scum day 1 game, the type that all that ensures he won't get lynched. That doesn't make him scum of course (it's a perfectly valid town approach as well), but it's something to keep in mind.
I'm interested in lynching from SK/Zappy/Hydrad. Mail-mi has to be in the pool too, but I'm unsure how to tackle mailmi's total lack of presence. Mailmi, do you have any reads?
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Welcome eevee! Also a question you said your pretty sure there is a scum in either sk or zappie. Do you think there is a chance that they are both scum? Personally I feel like that is a low possibility but I wanted to see what you think.
Also anyone can answer this if they feel like it.
No, I think it's an unlikely pair. Another unlikely pair
would be WW and pacovf.
I can see scum planning out a fight between them on night zero. So I wouldn't rule out all people who fight as partners.
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Pacovf, headsup, I'd revote if I were you -- your quoting of a vote for Zappie was outside a quote box so it will probably be counted as a vote by you.
Joth, I think scum have no problem fighting, but I doubt they come out and do it on D1 directly.
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Pacovf, headsup, I'd revote if I were you -- your quoting of a vote for Zappie was outside a quote box so it will probably be counted as a vote by you.
Woops unvote. Still rereading.
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I could see joth being scum, more easily than say you or TA. Joth is playing the quintessential good scum day 1 game, the type that all that ensures he won't get lynched. That doesn't make him scum of course (it's a perfectly valid town approach as well), but it's something to keep in mind.
I'm interested in lynching from SK/Zappy/Hydrad. Mail-mi has to be in the pool too, but I'm unsure how to tackle mailmi's total lack of presence. Mailmi, do you have any reads?
School just started and so it's been kinda busy so I have less reads than I usually do, but, just off the top of my head...
...I could go for SK, though if there was another, better case that's be great.
...Joth seems like himself, towny read on him and pacovf.
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Vote Count 1.51
Zappie (2): jotheonah, SK
SK (3): Witherweaver, Hydrad, Eevee
Hydrad (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting (3): Zappie, mail-mi, pacovf
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends August 26th, 1:00 PM.
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Town points you say? I will do my best.
Eevee: Hi, welcome, things and stuff. And thanks for replacing whats-his-face.
Down to business. Really, Eevee could go both ways IMO. He has been playing rather well, giving the good guy reads and being the good townie. But really, nothing he has said has been crazy good or crazy bad, so theres really no good way to tell. Leaning town here, but could very easily be scum. I mean, hes a vet, guys.
WW seems to be genuinely trying to scumhunt, in that hes always been a strong supporter of a wagon, be it me, or pacovf, or whatever. Town, IMO, but I wanna do a reread of him and go more in depth.
more to come
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Another post by SK that reads scummy to me...
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...I could go for SK, though if there was another, better case that's be great.
Once again, I'll happily oblige. Just vote: Twisted Archer, we will lynch SK tomorrow, m'kay?
Disclaimer: I started my reread not wanting to lynch a newbie today, with a townread on Joth and WW (have you noticed he didn't know the setup very well at first? Do you see scum!WW letting that happen?), and not wanting to lynch mail-mi or Eevee because they haven't posted much yet. You do the math.
Now to my case. As you can imagine, I've been thinking about TA's case on Hydrad. I've done a full, slow reread to get where it came from.
-Hydrad has been reasonably active up until now, giving his thoughts on everything that happened, and enough explanations. He didn't think SK was scummy at first (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411579#msg411579), but after SK's most recent posts, he developed an unsure scumread on him. He later (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411935#msg411935) (wrongly) says that he had already mentioned his scumread on SK before.
-TA has been a bit less active, and his posts have less content. The only noteworthy post until his attack on Hydrad was his unjustified vote on SK (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411562#msg411562), which started the wagon on him but was only explained much later as "it looked fake" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411608#msg411608). After SK's most recent (and arguably much scummier) posts, he chooses to put Hydrad on the spot (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411917#msg411917), and moves his vote from SK to Hydrad (SK had three votes against him when Hydrad moved his vote). In contrast with Hydrad misremembering his posts, TA makes sure that he doesn't reference things that don't exist (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg412007#msg412007).
So yeah, I know it's very early to call the scumteam, but I am going to do it anyway, because the narrative just makes too much sense, especially in light of TA last post:
Joth, I think scum have no problem fighting, but I doubt they come out and do it on D1 directly.
I believe TA started the wagon on SK to distance himself from his scumpartner. He didn't give reasons, and when he did much later, they were weak. Because he wanted the wagon to fail. Quite some time later, when SK started digging a deep hole for himself and it looked like it was very very possible that he was getting lynched today, TA decided to abandon the wagon before it reached critical mass, and for that he needed a scapegoat. Notice how he is accusing Hydrad of the very same thing everybody else is accusing SK of. And now he goes and mentions that scum don't fight scum D1 just to make sure everybody remembers it when we analyze the SK wagon (read: he wants to have his cake and eat it too, since he left the SK wagon).
Other anecdotic evidence in my favour: in the original scummy post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411536#msg411536) by SK, SK asks why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappy, and seems to purposefully ignore the earlier and much stronger defense WW did (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411444#msg411444). Why? Because TA, in his usual let's-not-say-too-much style, had just said he had a town read on WW (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411470#msg411470).
Oh, and had I mentioned that Hydrad was the only person that had voiced suspicions against TA (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411483#msg411483)?
The narrative makes too much sense for me to ignore it. I urge you to reconsider your votes.
PPE 2
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I neglect to read setups as both town and scum, fyi.
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Well, I understand not wanting to lynch a newbie, but it is a newbie game, so they can't really all get a pass. In regular games it makes sense, but here a good fraction of the players are new. I mean, what if the team is two newbies?
If it's SK and TA, then you should be willing to vote either. I see SK being more likely, and having a good amount of content associated with him so that if he does turn up scum, we can find his partner.
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I mean, what if the team is two newbies?
I have a hard time seeing SK attack his scumpartner Zappie in the manner he did...
I don't mind lynching newbies starting tomorrow though, and in any case who we lynch today doesn't only depend on me. If push comes to shove, I might vote for a newbie.
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I neglect to read setups as both town and scum, fyi.
I recommend changing that. Go read the setup now.
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Pacovf it seems that a underlying part of your argument is that my posts have less content than other peoples. I don't disagree but how does this make me scummy?
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TA: Hmm. Just read pacovf's argument. I thought he was being pretty active and things and stuff, but after reading that…
Well, the problem is, Im town. And your argument really rides on me being scum if I am reading it right. So unfortunately, I cannot really believe most of it. You brought up a couple scummy things hes done, enough to give him a scum vibe.
Pacovf: I have no bloody clue. He has reads on everyone all the time, and he is too smart for me. I will say this: he does seem to be trying to help. I guess. I thank him for his advice though. Other than that, he continues to baffle me.
Hydrad: I cant say much that TA hasnt already said. He changes his mind too much, stays on the fence, pulls canned reads out of his hat. If I had to choose one person to lynch, I would be tied between him and…
Zappie: Has been rather unhelpful. His excuse for the PM thing was a good excuse, Im still mulling around whether its totally believable. I think hes a smart guy, but hes hiding. The two possibilities with him are that:
1) Hes scum, had a stupid fake VT slip idea, and threw together an answer when we raised questions.
2) He is telling the truth.
I still think the former is more likely, but i wanna see some more action from him. My vote feels comfortable right now, but if it changes, it will probably be on hydrad.
After writing that I think Zappie is still slightly more scummy than hydrad.
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pacovf, I like your case. And I think it's an excellent starting point for tomorrow. But every post SK makes makes me think he's scum. I'm going to put him at L1 if everyone's ok with it.
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But every post SK makes makes me think he's scum. I'm going to put him at L1 if everyone's ok with it.
Should I stop posting? lol
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pacovf, I like your case. And I think it's an excellent starting point for tomorrow. But every post SK makes makes me think he's scum. I'm going to put him at L1 if everyone's ok with it.
Ya I agree with this, minus liking the case on me of course. Sk's posts just seem like exactly what would come from a scum player. It's honestly making me worried that it's too obvious but it really does make me want to lynch him.
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I don't really see the case on TA. It hinges so much on SK being scum, and isn't like slam dunk obvious to me even if that's true (which, guys, let's face it, can't be more than 50% to be true).
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I don't really see the case on TA. It hinges so much on SK being scum, and isn't like slam dunk obvious to me even if that's true (which, guys, let's face it, can't be more than 50% to be true).
More than 50% what?
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Vote: SK
that's L-1. New players, note that quickhammering (i.e. hammering without announcing intent to hammer first or without giving people time to respond and SK time for final defense/claim if he so chooses) is generally seen as a scummy action for which you will be heavily scrutinized on day 2.
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Wow this game has started to move faster.
Also just letting people know while I am still feeling the best about a sk lynch don't feel as if you have to do it rift away. We have till the 26th still so we don't need to rush. That being said if you are for some reason extremely sure that sk is scum and you don't want the wagon to go onto someone else then I guess you can hammer. But if sk is town it will look extremely bad for you so waiting is usually a better action.
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I don't really see the case on TA. It hinges so much on SK being scum, and isn't like slam dunk obvious to me even if that's true (which, guys, let's face it, can't be more than 50% to be true).
More than 50% what?
SK being scum. P
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Does anyone disagree with lynching sk?
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Also, L-1 is the point which you should consider claiming your role. Or when someone gives intent (or willingness) to hammer. It's not necessarily best to claim your role.. sometimes it's good, sometime's it is not.
SK should definitely not be hammered until he is given the opportunity to claim.
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SK should definitely not be hammered until he is given the opportunity to claim.
Quoting this so it's absolutely clear for everyone.
SK's statement regarding all this would be great!
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One quick newbie question as I'm kinda curious. If you were a doctor would you ever claim that you were a doctor? It would save you from a lynch but then you are dead anyways during the night.
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One quick newbie question as I'm kinda curious. If you were a doctor would you ever claim that you were a doctor? It would save you from a lynch but then you are dead anyways during the night.
If the alternative is just being lynched, there is no downside. I would, unless
I felt I could avoid the lynch some other way.
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Pacovf it seems that a underlying part of your argument is that my posts have less content than other peoples. I don't disagree but how does this make me scummy?
You are right. Imagine if everyone did the same thing you are doing. What odds would you say town would have of winning?
I don't really see the case on TA. It hinges so much on SK being scum, and isn't like slam dunk obvious to me even if that's true (which, guys, let's face it, can't be more than 50% to be true).
Actually, a number of arguments in my post don't rely on SK being scum:
-TA's posts being sparse and low on content.
-TA being overly conscious of what he does or does not say.
-TA coming back to attack Hydrad a long time after Hydrad voiced suspicions on him.
IMHO, TA is the scummiest looking vet right now, because of the mentioned arguments (and current lack of info on Eevee and mail-mi). After I noticed that, I dug a bit more and noticed that it would make a great deal of sense if SK was TA's scumpartner, but SK being scum was NOT the starting point of my analysis. I do realize now that the main objective with my case, moving the lynch pool away from the newbies, seems to have failed. I worded my case poorly, and talked too much about SK.
We've still got a week until the deadline, so I am not hammering SK. I urge people to think about my case on TA before lynching anyone, setting aside for a moment whether SK is scum or not. If my original case on TA is right, but SK is not his scumpartner, I would rather not give mafia the time to talk to each other about how to weather the accusations on D2.
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I could see joth being scum, more easily than say you or TA. Joth is playing the quintessential good scum day 1 game, the type that all that ensures he won't get lynched. That doesn't make him scum of course (it's a perfectly valid town approach as well), but it's something to keep in mind.
Before I posted my case against TA, you mentioned here that TA was one of your top town reads. Before that, your read on TA was resumed as:
I was totally null on TA until his post on Hydrad, but I like the case and the thought process seems towny, so town on him too, now.
So in a sense we agree that TA hadn't really posted much of interest before his case on Hydrad. Obviously the fact that he started the wagon on SK is interesting, but the case itself wasn't.
You then see his case on Hydrad and suddenly he becomes one of your top town reads. Why? I appreciate TA putting Hydrad under pressure, and in a vacuum he gets town points from it (actually, before I did the reread, I was in a similar position to you), but I fail to see that as being enough to become one of your top townreads.
Compare this to your first read on joth, which was:
Joth, his comment of not posting substance day 1 was obviously in jest, and he seems to be contributing fine. I don't know, he seems relaxed and himself, I'm not seeing anything incriminating.
Somehow you are more wary of "relaxed and himself joth than TA? I don't see it.
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Pacovf it seems that a underlying part of your argument is that my posts have less content than other peoples. I don't disagree but how does this make me scummy?
You are right. Imagine if everyone did the same thing you are doing. What odds would you say town would have of winning?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but once again, how does this indicate I'm scum?
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Pacovf it seems that a underlying part of your argument is that my posts have less content than other peoples. I don't disagree but how does this make me scummy?
You are right. Imagine if everyone did the same thing you are doing. What odds would you say town would have of winning?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but once again, how does this indicate I'm scum?
Before I answer your question, answer me this: are you saying I'm right?
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Hey pacovf, how can you say I'm scummy for not posting content, be ok with the amount of content Eevee is posting, but simultaneously have enough content on me for a scum read yet not enough content on Eevee to make a read there?
I don't get how you can say "TA's has little content: scumread" and "Mail-mi and Eevee have little content: not enough to make a read"
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Pacovf it seems that a underlying part of your argument is that my posts have less content than other peoples. I don't disagree but how does this make me scummy?
You are right. Imagine if everyone did the same thing you are doing. What odds would you say town would have of winning?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but once again, how does this indicate I'm scum?
Before I answer your question, answer me this: are you saying I'm right?
That I have less content than a few others currently? Yes, obviously. That if every town member had the same amount of content as me, we'd be screwed? Debatable but I don't think it's an outrageous claim on your part, no.
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Hey pacovf, how can you say I'm scummy for not posting content, be ok with the amount of content Eevee is posting, but simultaneously have enough content on me for a scum read yet not enough content on Eevee to make a read there?
I don't get how you can say "TA's has little content: scumread" and "Mail-mi and Eevee have little content: not enough to make a read"
Mail-mi is V/LA, and I've mentioned already that I am not ok with the amount of content he has posted. I can't know how busy he is, so he gets a pass for the time being.
Eevee has just replaced, and he has posted a damn good amount of content for the short amount of time he has been here.
You on the other hand have neither excuse, and it looks like you are avoiding my questions...
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You on the other hand have neither excuse, and it looks like you are avoiding my questions...
ninja'd without warning ignore this two secs.
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Pacovf it seems that a underlying part of your argument is that my posts have less content than other peoples. I don't disagree but how does this make me scummy?
You are right. Imagine if everyone did the same thing you are doing. What odds would you say town would have of winning?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but once again, how does this indicate I'm scum?
Before I answer your question, answer me this: are you saying I'm right?
That I have less content than a few others currently? Yes, obviously. That if every town member had the same amount of content as me, we'd be screwed? Debatable but I don't think it's an outrageous claim on your part, no.
You have less content than most other people. I'd say only mail-mi and Zappie have posted less content than you, I'd say you may have posted less than Eevee even!
You are also being quite hedgy in this conversation. Why do you need that many disguised double negatives? "I don't disagree", "I'm not saying you are wrong", and most interesting of all "I don't think it's an outrageous claim on your part".
In simple words, you admit that your behavious is anti-town (not outrageous claim = sensible claim). Then why are you surprised when people accuse you for that?
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It just seems like you are finding people who post longer posts town, and shorter posts scum. Which doesn't make much sense to me. You should be evaluating the content not the style. Posting content without analysis is much scummier to me than posting analysis without content.
You can argue that I haven't made longer posts, and you would be correct, but you can't argue that I haven't been getting my opinions out there. I don't particularly care to post my opinions in long paragraph form so I usually won't, and I'm sorry if that bothers you or throws off your scum radar but that's not likely to change.
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I think calling my posting habits anti-town is a gross exaggeration. I think if you look back I have more content than you are recalling. Yes, I haven't been as active as you or as thorough as Eevee since he's joined, but I haven't been lurking either. I just don't have any multi-paragraph posts.
I wouldn't have such a problem with this except that your entire case seems to be based around me not having content. Which is partially true but even if it was completely true I still think it's a poor piece of evidence to lynch someone on. Especially when SK's posts just scream scum with every single word. (Oh noes I'm bussing my partner now!)
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Posting content without analysis is much scummier to me than posting analysis without content.
I still don't agree with you, but there's no point in going on if we aren't on the same wavelength. How do you define content, how do you define analysis?
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Content w/o analysis = long posts that have a lot of words, but don't really have anything that you couldn't state in 1 sentence.
Analysis w/o content = short, to the point. Probably content is the wrong word to use here but you get the point hopefully.
Ultimately though a lot of it does come down to writing style. I know when I started playing my posts were much lengthier than they have been lately.
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Noted. Now to answer your previous posts.
I think if you look back I have more content than you are recalling.
but you can't argue that I haven't been getting my opinions out there.
I actually can. After RVS (where you shot down WW's case on me) and before I jumped on you, the only thing you've posted is your case against Hydrad (which was good, that much I can give you), and this:
Town read on ww thus far
Zappie, who did you want to PM?
Vote: SK
He's being overly careful about covering his tracks.
So both you and TA decide to go the other way around and vote without explaining anything at all? ???
Yup basically.
I read the post and didn't have time to write a response out but wanted to get a vote down. The stream of consciousness seems fake to me.
Pacovf gets a D1 pass for activity alone, I don't wanna lynch him today. Don't wanna lynch WW either.
So we know your opinion on ww and on SK, woo. Very very little analysis anywhere, your reasoning is usually left as an exercise to the reader, unless asked (and then not always, for example I asked you to explain your townread on WW, but you didn't). We still don't know what you think about Zappie's PM comment either, for example.
I don't think I am biased towards people that post multiple paragraphs. Hydrad's posts are a bit short too, yet you don't see me suspect him for that. You have started providing analysis now that we are nearing a lynch, not a moment before.
The only thing that makes you look townier in my eyes is your case on Hydrad. Quick question: did you remember that Hydrad was suspicious of you before you put him on the spot?
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I feel like I am looking to much without actually posting so.. But it is pretty difficult to memorize posts of 9 players instantly with their abbreviation. Although I like the recognizable name 'Eevee'.
The most striking post for me is pacovf attack vs TA. He searched deep for evidence for this. From my own experience people that are so into the game have a special character, but this probably doesn't hold true in fds.
I haven't voted yet but its probably better to do so and:
I can imagine that lynching a random player is better than following others, as the mafia can quickly group up and vote the same person.
Completely agree, but how do you intend to lynch a random player without anyone following others at some point, though?
so hereby vote: SK
Altough i should probably not vote on a newby, so that i may be saved by the same reason of not voting on newbies day 1, but.. not going change my mind again now
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...Hammered?
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Um
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Yep, hammered. Eeve, WW, Hydrad, Joth, Zappie.
Seems like I won't be able to get anything more from TA, which is very very bad.I wouldn't have such a problem with this except that your entire case seems to be based around me not having content. Which is partially true but even if it was completely true I still think it's a poor piece of evidence to lynch someone on. Especially when SK's posts just scream scum with every single word. (Oh noes I'm bussing my partner now!)
If SK posts scream scum so much, why did you keep your vote on Hydrad for so long? Joth didn't put SK at L-1 until very late, yet there you were so happy with your Hydrad vote.
I guess we'll keep talking tomorrow.
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Although if SK flips town, we'll have to take a look at Zappie. That was a weird comeback from the lurking spot.
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Uh-oh.
Zappie, did you realize you were hammering there?
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To hammer = to give the final vote
There were 9 of us, so we needed 5 people voting against the same person to lynch someone. The moment those 5 votes are reached, the person gets lynched.
In other words, you just lynched SK
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unvote
vote: Twistedarcher
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unvote
vote: Twistedarcher
Doesn't save him :(
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oh whoa, I missed a bunch of posts when I refreshed.
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Well this is interesting. I'm just going to hope that we were right about sk I guess
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THREAD LOCKED
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Final Day 1 Vote Count
Zappie (1): SK
SK (5): Witherweaver, Hydrad, Eevee, jotheonah, Zappie
Hydrad (1): Twistedarcher
Twistedarcher (1): pacovf
Not Voting (1): mail-mi
With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch.
SK has been lynched. He was a Mafia Goon.
NIGHT 1 START
Day 2 will start in 48 hours from now (3 PM FT on Thursday). Please send in night actions.
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jotheonah was killed during the night. He was a Vanilla Townie.
DAY 2 START
Vote Count 2.1
Not Voting (7): mail-mi, Eevee, Zappie, Twistedarcher, Hydrad, pacovf, Witherweaver
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
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So, that was rather excellent.
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Yay daytime. I can post thing again
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I guess it really was as obvious as it seemed. Obviously quick hammers aren't great but glad it worked out in this case.
Obviously want to start by looking off wagon today.
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Why was it rather excellent?
Also, could you please answer this? The thread got locked too early.
I could see joth being scum, more easily than say you or TA. Joth is playing the quintessential good scum day 1 game, the type that all that ensures he won't get lynched. That doesn't make him scum of course (it's a perfectly valid town approach as well), but it's something to keep in mind.
Before I posted my case against TA, you mentioned here that TA was one of your top town reads. Before that, your read on TA was resumed as:
I was totally null on TA until his post on Hydrad, but I like the case and the thought process seems towny, so town on him too, now.
So in a sense we agree that TA hadn't really posted much of interest before his case on Hydrad. Obviously the fact that he started the wagon on SK is interesting, but the case itself wasn't.
You then see his case on Hydrad and suddenly he becomes one of your top town reads. Why? I appreciate TA putting Hydrad under pressure, and in a vacuum he gets town points from it (actually, before I did the reread, I was in a similar position to you), but I fail to see that as being enough to become one of your top townreads.
Compare this to your first read on joth, which was:
Joth, his comment of not posting substance day 1 was obviously in jest, and he seems to be contributing fine. I don't know, he seems relaxed and himself, I'm not seeing anything incriminating.
Somehow you are more wary of "relaxed and himself joth than TA? I don't see it.
I guess the point about joth is not that relevant anymore, but you get the idea.
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Oh I actually like that night kill. I was kinda suspicious about jon so that helps me out. Also town read on zappie. I don't think new scum could do that.
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I guess it really was as obvious as it seemed. Obviously quick hammers aren't great but glad it worked out in this case.
Obviously want to start by looking off wagon today.
...you were off-wagon, so thank you for that.
Could you answer any of my unanswered D1 questions?
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I did a cursory reread during the night. I have two suspects.
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It was excellent we lynched scum and pretty much confirmed Zappie is town as well.
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I guess it really was as obvious as it seemed. Obviously quick hammers aren't great but glad it worked out in this case.
Obviously want to start by looking off wagon today.
...you were off-wagon, so thank you for that.
Could you answer any of my unanswered D1 questions?
Please don't start off by trying to spin everything against me -- I was very responsive to your accusations, you just kept making the same ones over and over that were on poor grounding.
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Something also to look at would be any newbies who pushed the case of "lets not lynch a newbie day one". Team of two newbies wants a vet lynch d1.
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This last post of mine was in bad faith, yes, but you didn't really answer my last accusations either, so it's a wash.
Going out now, won't be able to reply on the spot.
Something also to look at would be any newbies who pushed the case of "lets not lynch a newbie day one". Team of two newbies wants a vet lynch d1.
Haha true! I'll wait for your full case though if you don't mind.
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I'll say this. I have a town read on TA and zappie and fairly sure about pacovf also. So for me I think scum is in eevee, ww, and mailmi. Eevee and mailmi are my top two though.
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What full case? I don't have a full cAse... Where did I say I did?
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Vote: mailmi
I want to try and get him out here and talking. I realize he's at school but he's one of my top scum reads so I'm voting for him.
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Sweet. So:
WW I thought came off pretty scummy from the argument with pacofv, his suspicion just seemed baseless which isn't at all like him. On the other hand, identifying it as a scum mistake assumes WW would be the kind of player to get drawn into an argument where he doesn't believe in his side as scum from his first post, which I don't find too plausible, so I'm trying to ignore this feeling of scumminess.
Joth, his comment of not posting substance day 1 was obviously in jest, and he seems to be contributing fine. I don't know, he seems relaxed and himself, I'm not seeing anything incriminating.
Then, the scummy people.
I can totally see the argument for Zappy's fake townslip, it's one of the better day 1 cases. His explanation makes sense too, although the combination of being of asking a mod if sending a pm is allowed without having a specific pm in mind and nonchalantly claiming VT doesn't sit right with me. Unfortunate VT claims have a history of establishing a firmly towny images in newbie games, so I could totally see Zappy being coached into trying it, even if it's a bit of gambit.
SK's reaction to this was hands down the scummiest, so much so that I'd feel pretty comfortable (for day 1 standards) stating that exactly one of SK and Zappy is scum. I'm wrestling with whom I see as scummier, leaning on SK because what he did was a scummy action, whereas what we have with Zappy is a hypothesis that's tiptoeing the dangerous line of a scumslip argument.
Hydrad I thought had one weirdish post. I don't remember specifically what it was, but I remember thinking it portrayed a line of thinking that seemed unnatural for town, I'm sure it'll catch my eye again when I reread. Other than that, I'm null until TA's case, which pushed me into a scum read, although lesser than the one on SK/Zappy duo (well, a half of it anyways).
Computer says it's restarting in 5 minutes for updates, better post this before I lose it.
Oh, nothing on mail-mi. He hasn't posted much. I suck at reading him anyways. Scummier side of null for leaving me with no impressions.
This is some serious hedge right off the bat from Eevee. I didn't want to point this out yesterday, but when I read this I wanted to call an Eevee/SK scum team. It was tempered a little bit by Eevee not seeming all that scummy otherwise, but the main thing about this is the big "one of Zappie/SK is scum" statement, when it wasn't quite clear yet which one we were going to lynch.
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I showed plenty of commitment to lynching SK with my vote, though? And of course I don't suspect Zappie any more.
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Ya I agree WW which is why mailmi and eevee are my top scum reads. I'm thinking though if we had to choose one mailmi would be a better choice as since he's busy he's not really able to contribute even if he's town?
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Ww, how doyou reconcile that with the fact that eevee was the third on the wagon? That's a pretty important vote -- 2 votes doesn't mean sk is gonna get lynched, but 3 votes makes it much more significant. He wasn't 100% about it but he also definitely says he finds sk scummy and follows it up with a vote.
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pacovf, who do you suspect?
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Ww, how doyou reconcile that with the fact that eevee was the third on the wagon? That's a pretty important vote -- 2 votes doesn't mean sk is gonna get lynched, but 3 votes makes it much more significant. He wasn't 100% about it but he also definitely says he finds sk scummy and follows it up with a vote.
I did not actually go back and check those things. I just had that point in the back of my head, but I didn't want to say it yesterday. Basically this was my first reaction to Eevee's post, and I'm posting it now without the consideration of what followed.
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Here's where Eevee votes.
I had no idea how much I had missed simple 9 player games. Let the fun begin!
You aren't voting, are you?
True, also easily fixed.
Vote: SK
This isn't the most townie thing, I think, because he did get pushed to vote there. But not really pushed hard, just someone pointing out that he didn't put a vote down, and he immediately (and complacently and casually) voted.
I guess this fits the scum partner narrative that sees he'd have to push the Zappie case pretty hard himself (and possibly look very, very bad), and thus decides to bus instead. It would also fit the townie narrative of simply making a choice equally well, I think. So it's a fairly null.
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Gotcha.
I basically find all of the people on wagon towny right now and don't want to lynch any of them. Ww and eevee I have bigger town reads on -- I don't think I can really see zappie as scum -- and hydrad has a good position on scum wagon and I had moved slightly off my town read.
That leaves pacovf and mail-mi, I don't remember much about mail-mi and luckily pacovf has a lot of content to analyze. I'll reread when I'm not at work :)
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Here's where Eevee votes.
I had no idea how much I had missed simple 9 player games. Let the fun begin!
You aren't voting, are you?
True, also easily fixed.
Vote: SK
This isn't the most townie thing, I think, because he did get pushed to vote there. But not really pushed hard, just someone pointing out that he didn't put a vote down, and he immediately (and complacently and casually) voted.
I guess this fits the scum partner narrative that sees he'd have to push the Zappie case pretty hard himself (and possibly look very, very bad), and thus decides to bus instead. It would also fit the townie narrative of simply making a choice equally well, I think. So it's a fairly null.
What, I don't get it.
How can he be "complacently and casually" placing a vote, but be pushing the case "pretty hard" at the same time? It's one or the other.
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I'm pretty surprised at the Joth kill. I would have expected a more active townie (myself, actually) to die. This may point to a more veteran scum who was worried about what Joth may do later, maybe because he's played with Joth before. Personally, I had no read on Joth whatsoever.
Did Joth even put out any reads?
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How good is hydrad's position? I don't remember the specifics, but he was the second subject that emerged for me when rereading the wagon.
pacovf was clearly the scummiest though. He tried to deflect us away from
the SK lynch multiple times yesterday.
vote: pacovf
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Here's where Eevee votes.
I had no idea how much I had missed simple 9 player games. Let the fun begin!
You aren't voting, are you?
True, also easily fixed.
Vote: SK
This isn't the most townie thing, I think, because he did get pushed to vote there. But not really pushed hard, just someone pointing out that he didn't put a vote down, and he immediately (and complacently and casually) voted.
I guess this fits the scum partner narrative that sees he'd have to push the Zappie case pretty hard himself (and possibly look very, very bad), and thus decides to bus instead. It would also fit the townie narrative of simply making a choice equally well, I think. So it's a fairly null.
What, I don't get it.
How can he be "complacently and casually" placing a vote, but be pushing the case "pretty hard" at the same time? It's one or the other.
Huh? I was saying that in the case where Eevee is scum, he makes a post that lets him go either direction between his partner (SK) and a townie (Zappie). Someone points out he's not voting. He knows his partner (SK) is getting some heat, so he has two choices: vote partner or vote Zappie (or come up with a reason not to vote yet). If he takes the latter, then he'd have to push the Zappie case hard, which looks bad when either SK is lynched anyway and flips scum or Zappie is lynched and flips town. So he chooses the other route and buses.
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How good is hydrad's position? I don't remember the specifics, but he was the second subject that emerged for me when rereading the wagon.
pacovf was clearly the scummiest though. He tried to deflect us away from
the SK lynch multiple times yesterday.
vote: pacovf
This is true, but he tried to deflect it with a "Lynch TA first, then lynch SK." How did he intend to get away from lynching SK today?
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Hydrad was second on the wagon. I was first. First spot is best spot.
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Hydrad was second on the wagon. I was first. First spot is best spot.
Second spot second best spot? Is this how it works?
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Also even though pacovf was fighting the sk lynch. All I see from him is a town member having a stronger read on TA then SK. I still think he's town
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Hydrad was second on the wagon. I was first. First spot is best spot.
Second spot second best spot? Is this how it works?
Actually in this case last spot was probably best spot.
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How good is hydrad's position? I don't remember the specifics, but he was the second subject that emerged for me when rereading the wagon.
pacovf was clearly the scummiest though. He tried to deflect us away from
the SK lynch multiple times yesterday.
vote: pacovf
This is true, but he tried to deflect it with a "Lynch TA first, then lynch SK." How did he intend to get away from lynching SK today?
That just reeks of desperation and "anyone but my partner today"-mentality.
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How good is hydrad's position? I don't remember the specifics, but he was the second subject that emerged for me when rereading the wagon.
pacovf was clearly the scummiest though. He tried to deflect us away from
the SK lynch multiple times yesterday.
vote: pacovf
This is true, but he tried to deflect it with a "Lynch TA first, then lynch SK." How did he intend to get away from lynching SK today?
That just reeks of desperation and "anyone but my partner today"-mentality.
I can kind of see that, and I did consider it.. but the entire TA case was building him up as SK's partner. Kind of a weird way to get attention off of your scum buddy.
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How good is hydrad's position? I don't remember the specifics, but he was the second subject that emerged for me when rereading the wagon.
pacovf was clearly the scummiest though. He tried to deflect us away from
the SK lynch multiple times yesterday.
vote: pacovf
This is true, but he tried to deflect it with a "Lynch TA first, then lynch SK." How did he intend to get away from lynching SK today?
That just reeks of desperation and "anyone but my partner today"-mentality.
I can kind of see that, and I did consider it.. but the entire TA case was building him up as SK's partner. Kind of a weird way to get attention off of your scum buddy.
Not really. It can be followed by "crap, I was wrong about TA, time to completely reconsider"
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How good is hydrad's position? I don't remember the specifics, but he was the second subject that emerged for me when rereading the wagon.
pacovf was clearly the scummiest though. He tried to deflect us away from
the SK lynch multiple times yesterday.
vote: pacovf
This is true, but he tried to deflect it with a "Lynch TA first, then lynch SK." How did he intend to get away from lynching SK today?
That just reeks of desperation and "anyone but my partner today"-mentality.
I can kind of see that, and I did consider it.. but the entire TA case was building him up as SK's partner. Kind of a weird way to get attention off of your scum buddy.
He'd disagree with that.
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That's true.
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Was pacovf the only one really against the sk lynch? Even if he was I guess my read has gone from a town to a null read on him. I would still rather a mailmi lynch.
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Last thing Mail-mi said:
I could see joth being scum, more easily than say you or TA. Joth is playing the quintessential good scum day 1 game, the type that all that ensures he won't get lynched. That doesn't make him scum of course (it's a perfectly valid town approach as well), but it's something to keep in mind.
I'm interested in lynching from SK/Zappy/Hydrad. Mail-mi has to be in the pool too, but I'm unsure how to tackle mailmi's total lack of presence. Mailmi, do you have any reads?
School just started and so it's been kinda busy so I have less reads than I usually do, but, just off the top of my head...
...I could go for SK, though if there was another, better case that's be great.
...Joth seems like himself, towny read on him and pacovf.
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TA never moved his vote back to SK, it seems, though said many times how everything SK did screamed scummy.
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TA never moved his vote back to SK, it seems, though said many times how everything SK did screamed scummy.
Yeah I kinda got beaten to it.
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soo sorry guys but i am really stretched thin right now and I really shouldn't be in two games but I am so sorry.
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So when I read what happened:
quickhammered?! - o shit they are going to get so angry at me
mafia goon - o yes!
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So when I read what happened:
quickhammered?! - o shit they are going to get so angry at me
mafia goon - o yes!
:)
Who are you suspecting right now?
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Was pacovf the only one really against the sk lynch? Even if he was I guess my read has gone from a town to a null read on him. I would still rather a mailmi lynch.
I think yes. And I really think we should lynch him for it. He was constantly making cases on other people every time the SK wagon started to build more steam.
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Before I start my defense, I would like to keep the pressure on TA. Vote: Twistedarcher BTW. For those that are convinced that TA is town, I need to hear your precise reasons, because I just can't see it right now.
Please don't start off by trying to spin everything against me -- I was very responsive to your accusations, you just kept making the same ones over and over that were on poor grounding.
I think this is fairly disingenuous. You were responsive, yes, but you didn't actually answer my accusations! You said that I was confusing content and analysis, and that you had actually contributed a lot D1. I demonstrated that it wasn't the case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg412270#msg412270). Fortunately for you, Zappie hammered, and you are not feeling the pressure to answer anymore. Which I think is a terrible idea.
Also note how you were deflecting my questions in this conversation:
Pacovf it seems that a underlying part of your argument is that my posts have less content than other peoples. I don't disagree but how does this make me scummy?
You are right. Imagine if everyone did the same thing you are doing. What odds would you say town would have of winning?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but once again, how does this indicate I'm scum?
Before I answer your question, answer me this: are you saying I'm right?
That I have less content than a few others currently? Yes, obviously. That if every town member had the same amount of content as me, we'd be screwed? Debatable but I don't think it's an outrageous claim on your part, no.
You accept that your play is not good for town, but refuse to take responsibility for it nor address people that call you out on that. You just say that I confuse content and analysis, and poof now I am the problem.
I say, start convincing me that you are town. Answer these accusations. I've got more coming down the way, but I would really appreciate a show of good will from you first.
PPE: infinity really. Answers incoming.
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He was constantly making cases on other people every time the SK wagon started to build more steam.
What. I mean, what. Reread. I built a case against Twistedarcher, I don't know where your "constantly" is coming from.
Other than that, I was perfectly aware that my partial refusal to lynch newbies day one would get used against me. I was willing to take the risk to make the game a better introduction to the other newbies. Note that I did say that I would hammer SK if the alternative was a no-lynch. We still had a full week before the deadline. My not voting for SK is perfectly understandable.
For what it's worth, I would have pushed SK's case D2 even if TA hadn't flipped scum, but you don't have any particular reason to believe me.
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Was pacovf the only one really against the sk lynch? Even if he was I guess my read has gone from a town to a null read on him. I would still rather a mailmi lynch.
I think yes. And I really think we should lynch him for it.
For what it's worth, mail-mi's official position on SK was that he would rather lynch a better case if it presented itself, which I don't find particularly different from my position.
I was the only vocal person against SK lynch D1 though, that much is true.
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Other facts that are being misconstructed:
The first person on SK wagon was TA, then WW, then Hydrad voted for SK when pressured by TA. TA then removed his vote from SK to vote for Hydrad. Then Eevee voted for SK, then joth, then Zappie hammered.
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Also even though pacovf was fighting the sk lynch. All I see from him is a town member having a stronger read on TA then SK. I still think he's town
No I had a stronger read on SK than on TA. But SK was just burying himself, I wanted to give him a chance to reach N1, where his scumpartner (if my read on TA was wrong) could coach him a bit better on how to play scum. Because that would make him a better player.
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Pacovf if TA was town do you have another person you think could be scum? Just curious for your input.
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I'm pretty surprised at the Joth kill. I would have expected a more active townie (myself, actually) to die. This may point to a more veteran scum who was worried about what Joth may do later, maybe because he's played with Joth before. Personally, I had no read on Joth whatsoever.
Did Joth even put out any reads?
Joth is the nightkill that hurts me the most. My strongest townread was on him (I said it back then). He thought my case on TA was good, but would rather wait for D2 to push him. He did eventually agree with me and vote against TA, but it was too late.
The single best lynch tonight was WW. Zappie was close to confirmed town, but he hasn't been active. I was close to obvtown yesterday, but my position had this glaring "don't lynch newbs D1" hole. Since there weren't any role softclaims, there's no fishing for PR.
Why would they lynch someone else, then? Because they are dangerous. Assume for a moment that TA is scum. He is not going to lynch me when there's a case to be made against me. Plus, if I die it all but confirms he is scum. So the best thing he can do is lynch joth, who had come around to see my case against TA, and then today I am alone.
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Pacovf if TA was town do you have another person you think could be scum? Just curious for your input.
I would look in mail-mi or Eevee.
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TA, what's your position on Hydrad today? I know you want to lynch off-wagon, but how has your opinion on him evolved?
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TA, what's your position on Hydrad today? I know you want to lynch off-wagon, but how has your opinion on him evolved?
Don't want to lynch him
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Other facts that are being misconstructed:
The first person on SK wagon was TA, then WW, then Hydrad voted for SK when pressured by TA. TA then removed his vote from SK to vote for Hydrad. Then Eevee voted for SK, then joth, then Zappie hammered.
Who do you think is misconstruing this?
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Or scum could of thought of killing joth to try to frame TA even more. Really the joth kill could go any way in my eyes and I think scum chose someone to confuse us instead of an obvious choice. Because now people might even think. Why didn't ww die if everyone shares your opinion on him being the best lynch candidate.
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I also actually didn't know what L-1 meant. But god I am so lucky. I guess this is why there are newby games.
So now i know why a wagon is so good.
SK was a newby so I don't think that voting him as mafia could have been a good idea. So the wagon starter, ww probably town just like (joth) and pacovf
i am rereading the whole thing (altough i am probably not analising as thoroughfully and good as you) and it so nice to read how SK tries to talk himself out :))) and it does makes sense that he was indeed a mafia.
Hmmm I don't like how easily Hydrad moved his vote and was able to directly answer my question. His initial post sounded unsure as to whether SK was town or scum -- he could see both sides. But when asked he definitively picked a side -- I'd suspect scum would 100% pick a side there, while town might just say "I'm really unsure, I'd think scum but I am unsure at this point". It just reads like Hydrad was presented with a question and then decided "since town is asking me a question, I NEED to give an answer one way or the other."
Vote: Hydrad
Can we get a replacement for Infinite Duress if he still hasn't shown up? Sooner is better, it will be tougher for someone replacing in if there's only a day or two left before deadline.
I am leaning towards TA here, I think there has been a more thoroughfull analysis been done of this couple, but i am feeling something too here.
Of course with my luck TA is mafia now
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Oh, come on, that's just said in bad faith. That thread is stickied on the Mafia Games board. Anyway, I've said everything I had to say about this line of reasoning, and you yourself have admitted that it wasn't a solid case, so I'll just drop it for the time being.
I'd like to hear more from other people. vote: SK because only him and Mail-mi have votes on them (other than us two) right now, and I think Mail-mi is V/LA.
Casually dropping a vote on his partner when it's early and it doesn't matter yet, to create easy interactions with each other.
Everybody, my username is pacovf, with an "f" after the "v". "pavlov" was a funny mispell, you can call me that if you want.
You have. In that case…I don't think pacov is scum. Other than that, I have nothing. I still am wondering why Joth doesn't give things and stuff D1, that isnt helpful, right?
It is probably cause there IS no substance D1. But it looks like there is…
Yeah, I dunno, Joth. Why no substance?
Why are you so fixed on Joth? He's a bit jokey, but he has also written a reasonably insightful post not so long ago about WW's case on me; most people haven't yet written anything half as thought out. Maybe you are just attacking him because he voted for you?
Coaching your partner, trying to dissolve the situation?
What exactly is scummy in his response? Isn't it basically the same as mine?
Defending SK.
It's an answer, I guess...
Anyway, for the time being, Vote: Infinite Duress. Exactly zero posts since the game started.
After TA and joth quickly pile on SK, pavocf throws his vote to a zero poster as a way to focus attention away from SK. This is really scummy I think. Both the target (it's very safe and easy) and the fact he appeared right after there was movement towards SK, but didn't address it at all.
I can see either Zappie or SK, but I'm sticking with Zappie right now. In my first game as town I overexplained and was almost lynched for it, because I figured that stream of consciousness positing was harder to fake. SK's post sort of read similar to me I guess.
Request prod for Infinite Duress
So in your first game as town you did exactly what SK did. That's why you say you could lynch him today.
See a problem with your logic?
Defending SK.
I would really like to hear from Infinite Duress, but I guess he might not be on during the week-end. The last time he was active was Aug 13, before the game started... If he hasn't said anything by Monday night, I guess I'll do a reread and try to find something new, I don't have any strong scum reads right now, or rather not strong enough to lynch a newbie D1.
In the meantime, I would like to hear Mail-mi's and Hydrad's opinion on the SK case, I think they haven't said anything about it yet. Oh and I would be interested in joth's read on me so far, if that's something I can ask.
Dismisses the case on SK as "not convincing enough to lynch a new player over").
The second paragraph reads towny to me though. It's not in scumpacovfs interest to bring the SK case back to the table.
[/quote]] (http://[quote author=pacovf link=topic=11486.msg412159#msg412159 date=1408446786)[/url]
These two consecutive posts, pacovf first goes through the SK case, says he sees merit to it but doesn't want to vote, and then on the next posts reminds everyone of townslipgate, and wonders if we should do Zappie after all.
[/quote]] (http://[quote author=pacovf link=topic=11486.msg412191#msg412191 date=1408458628)
[/url]
"I could go for SK, but I'll build a case against TA and vote for him."
Before I start my defense, I would like to keep the pressure on TA. Vote: Twistedarcher BTW. For those that are convinced that TA is town, I need to hear your precise reasons, because I just can't see it right now.
Well, for starters he voted for our flipped goon, didn't for example try to distract away from that lynch at every turn or anything like that.
It seems convenient that you had that firm belief about not wanting to lynch a newbie day 1, seeing how if I'm right, the scum team consists of two new players.
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I also actually didn't know what L-1 meant. But god I am so lucky. I guess this is why there are newby games.
So now i know why a wagon is so good.
SK was a newby so I don't think that voting him as mafia could have been a good idea. So the wagon starter, ww probably town just like (joth) and pacovf
i am rereading the whole thing (altough i am probably not analising as thoroughfully and good as you) and it so nice to read how SK tries to talk himself out :))) and it does makes sense that he was indeed a mafia.
Hmmm I don't like how easily Hydrad moved his vote and was able to directly answer my question. His initial post sounded unsure as to whether SK was town or scum -- he could see both sides. But when asked he definitively picked a side -- I'd suspect scum would 100% pick a side there, while town might just say "I'm really unsure, I'd think scum but I am unsure at this point". It just reads like Hydrad was presented with a question and then decided "since town is asking me a question, I NEED to give an answer one way or the other."
Vote: Hydrad
Can we get a replacement for Infinite Duress if he still hasn't shown up? Sooner is better, it will be tougher for someone replacing in if there's only a day or two left before deadline.
I am leaning towards TA here, I think there has been a more thoroughfull analysis been done of this couple, but i am feeling something too here.
Of course with my luck TA is mafia now
There has been a better analysis done on the couple by pacovf but i am feeling it now too.
With my luck, TA must be mafia of course now
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Other facts that are being misconstructed:
The first person on SK wagon was TA, then WW, then Hydrad voted for SK when pressured by TA. TA then removed his vote from SK to vote for Hydrad. Then Eevee voted for SK, then joth, then Zappie hammered.
Who do you think is misconstruing this?
WW is. It was a jokey post, but still:
Hydrad was second on the wagon. I was first. First spot is best spot.
TA, what's your position on Hydrad today? I know you want to lynch off-wagon, but how has your opinion on him evolved?
Don't want to lynch him
... that's still not an answer...
Or scum could of thought of killing joth to try to frame TA even more. Really the joth kill could go any way in my eyes and I think scum chose someone to confuse us instead of an obvious choice. Because now people might even think. Why didn't ww die if everyone shares your opinion on him being the best lynch candidate.
OK the WIFOM argument, fair point. I think the reasons are subtle enough that he could count on them not being noticed, but still.
PPE 2
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Pacovf, we're going to continually being at odds until you understand that my style of posting is clearly different from yours.
You asked what I thought about Hydrad. I said I don't want to lynch him. That's a clear statement, change in opinion, especially given that I did what to lynch him yesterday. I don't possibly know how you see that as me not answering your opinion -- I don't feel like writing an essay about it and I'm just not going to, sorry but you are going to have to deal with that.
Saying stuff like "Town read on WW" "Want to lynch Hydrad" "I think Eevee is towny", even if that's the entire post, is definitely getting an opinion down. I have no clue why you're insisting it's not, but that's how I am playing, and I'm not going to change that.
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But jezus, that eevee post attacking pacovf is also so convincing, i will have reread when it's not 02:00
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Zappie, if you have any questions about terminology game play, feel free to ask. Either in thread without giving away any information about your role, or by PMing the moderators. People are more than happy to help you out.
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How do you guys actually deal with all the information? - i feel like i need to get a piece of paper and draw all kinds of arrows
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Pacovf, we're going to continually being at odds until you understand that my style of posting is clearly different from yours.
You asked what I thought about Hydrad. I said I don't want to lynch him. That's a clear statement, change in opinion, especially given that I did what to lynch him yesterday. I don't possibly know how you see that as me not answering your opinion -- I don't feel like writing an essay about it and I'm just not going to, sorry but you are going to have to deal with that.
Saying stuff like "Town read on WW" "Want to lynch Hydrad" "I think Eevee is towny", even if that's the entire post, is definitely getting an opinion down. I have no clue why you're insisting it's not, but that's how I am playing, and I'm not going to change that.
I don't want an essay, but I think that just saying "I don't want to lynch X" can mean anything. Before that, you said that you wanted to lynch off-wagon. That automatically excludes Hydrad. I know you don't want to lynch him. I want to know if your reason for not wanting to lynch him is "I want to lynch off-wagon" or "I find him townie". They're radically different in my point of view.
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I know I still have to address Eevee's post, I am not ignoring you mate. It's just going to take a while.
Also sorry for the n-th posting in a row.
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Also even though pacovf was fighting the sk lynch. All I see from him is a town member having a stronger read on TA then SK. I still think he's town
No I had a stronger read on SK than on TA. But SK was just burying himself, I wanted to give him a chance to reach N1, where his scumpartner (if my read on TA was wrong) could coach him a bit better on how to play scum. Because that would make him a better player.
Vote: Pacovf
This is either town playing against their win conditions, or a blatant scum post. You clearly have a very good head on your shoulders and I just can't imagine you actively playing against your win conditions. This post is flagrant enough to warrant a vote almost on its own. SK can get advice after the game, and you surely had to know that.
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Pacovf, we're going to continually being at odds until you understand that my style of posting is clearly different from yours.
You asked what I thought about Hydrad. I said I don't want to lynch him. That's a clear statement, change in opinion, especially given that I did what to lynch him yesterday. I don't possibly know how you see that as me not answering your opinion -- I don't feel like writing an essay about it and I'm just not going to, sorry but you are going to have to deal with that.
Saying stuff like "Town read on WW" "Want to lynch Hydrad" "I think Eevee is towny", even if that's the entire post, is definitely getting an opinion down. I have no clue why you're insisting it's not, but that's how I am playing, and I'm not going to change that.
I don't want an essay, but I think that just saying "I don't want to lynch X" can mean anything. Before that, you said that you wanted to lynch off-wagon. That automatically excludes Hydrad. I know you don't want to lynch him. I want to know if your reason for not wanting to lynch him is "I want to lynch off-wagon" or "I find him townie". They're radically different in my point of view.
I find him towny.
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How do you guys actually deal with all the information? - i feel like i need to get a piece of paper and draw all kinds of arrows
I'm fairly new still so sometimes I just google the term they used and it will pop up. But you get used to it pretty fast
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How do you guys actually deal with all the information? - i feel like i need to get a piece of paper and draw all kinds of arrows
It definitely takes getting used to. It's a lot easier when you know the terminology / can follow exactly what everyone is saying without having to dig into it -- you can focus on the arguments and the flow of the game instead of "What the heck does WIFOM mean". You will get better with practice, don't worry
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The only thing giving me pause on Pavocf over Mail-mi right now is that mail-mi's "Yeah, I admit SK is scummy, but anyone got a better case?" is classic scum mail-mi.
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I could see joth being scum, more easily than say you or TA. Joth is playing the quintessential good scum day 1 game, the type that all that ensures he won't get lynched. That doesn't make him scum of course (it's a perfectly valid town approach as well), but it's something to keep in mind.
I'm interested in lynching from SK/Zappy/Hydrad. Mail-mi has to be in the pool too, but I'm unsure how to tackle mailmi's total lack of presence. Mailmi, do you have any reads?
School just started and so it's been kinda busy so I have less reads than I usually do, but, just off the top of my head...
...I could go for SK, though if there was another, better case that's be great.
...Joth seems like himself, towny read on him and pacovf.
This is mail-mi's one post this game with any content. One post.
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Oh, come on, that's just said in bad faith. That thread is stickied on the Mafia Games board. Anyway, I've said everything I had to say about this line of reasoning, and you yourself have admitted that it wasn't a solid case, so I'll just drop it for the time being.
I'd like to hear more from other people. vote: SK because only him and Mail-mi have votes on them (other than us two) right now, and I think Mail-mi is V/LA.
Casually dropping a vote on his partner when it's early and it doesn't matter yet, to create easy interactions with each other.
Everybody, my username is pacovf, with an "f" after the "v". "pavlov" was a funny mispell, you can call me that if you want.
You have. In that case…I don't think pacov is scum. Other than that, I have nothing. I still am wondering why Joth doesn't give things and stuff D1, that isnt helpful, right?
It is probably cause there IS no substance D1. But it looks like there is…
Yeah, I dunno, Joth. Why no substance?
Why are you so fixed on Joth? He's a bit jokey, but he has also written a reasonably insightful post not so long ago about WW's case on me; most people haven't yet written anything half as thought out. Maybe you are just attacking him because he voted for you?
Coaching your partner, trying to dissolve the situation?
What exactly is scummy in his response? Isn't it basically the same as mine?
Defending SK.
It's an answer, I guess...
Anyway, for the time being, Vote: Infinite Duress. Exactly zero posts since the game started.
After TA and joth quickly pile on SK, pavocf throws his vote to a zero poster as a way to focus attention away from SK. This is really scummy I think. Both the target (it's very safe and easy) and the fact he appeared right after there was movement towards SK, but didn't address it at all.
I can see either Zappie or SK, but I'm sticking with Zappie right now. In my first game as town I overexplained and was almost lynched for it, because I figured that stream of consciousness positing was harder to fake. SK's post sort of read similar to me I guess.
Request prod for Infinite Duress
So in your first game as town you did exactly what SK did. That's why you say you could lynch him today.
See a problem with your logic?
Defending SK.
I would really like to hear from Infinite Duress, but I guess he might not be on during the week-end. The last time he was active was Aug 13, before the game started... If he hasn't said anything by Monday night, I guess I'll do a reread and try to find something new, I don't have any strong scum reads right now, or rather not strong enough to lynch a newbie D1.
In the meantime, I would like to hear Mail-mi's and Hydrad's opinion on the SK case, I think they haven't said anything about it yet. Oh and I would be interested in joth's read on me so far, if that's something I can ask.
Dismisses the case on SK as "not convincing enough to lynch a new player over").
The second paragraph reads towny to me though. It's not in scumpacovfs interest to bring the SK case back to the table.
(http://[quote author=pacovf link=topic=11486.msg412159#msg412159 date=1408446786)
][/url]
These two consecutive posts, pacovf first goes through the SK case, says he sees merit to it but doesn't want to vote, and then on the next posts reminds everyone of townslipgate, and wonders if we should do Zappie after all.
[/quote]] (http://[quote author=pacovf link=topic=11486.msg412191#msg412191 date=1408458628)
[/url]
"I could go for SK, but I'll build a case against TA and vote for him."
Before I start my defense, I would like to keep the pressure on TA. Vote: Twistedarcher BTW. For those that are convinced that TA is town, I need to hear your precise reasons, because I just can't see it right now.
Well, for starters he voted for our flipped goon, didn't for example try to distract away from that lynch at every turn or anything like that.
It seems convenient that you had that firm belief about not wanting to lynch a newbie day 1, seeing how if I'm right, the scum team consists of two new players.
[/quote]
this is good. I like it. vote: pacovf
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I could see joth being scum, more easily than say you or TA. Joth is playing the quintessential good scum day 1 game, the type that all that ensures he won't get lynched. That doesn't make him scum of course (it's a perfectly valid town approach as well), but it's something to keep in mind.
I'm interested in lynching from SK/Zappy/Hydrad. Mail-mi has to be in the pool too, but I'm unsure how to tackle mailmi's total lack of presence. Mailmi, do you have any reads?
School just started and so it's been kinda busy so I have less reads than I usually do, but, just off the top of my head...
...I could go for SK, though if there was another, better case that's be great.
...Joth seems like himself, towny read on him and pacovf.
This is mail-mi's one post this game with any content. One post.
i know im so sorry.
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vote: ID he needs to talk.
Vote: SK
Vote: SK
reasons?
Actually, I suppose this one is kinda relevant as well. So two posts.
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Unvote that was L-1. We have time.
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Also even though pacovf was fighting the sk lynch. All I see from him is a town member having a stronger read on TA then SK. I still think he's town
No I had a stronger read on SK than on TA. But SK was just burying himself, I wanted to give him a chance to reach N1, where his scumpartner (if my read on TA was wrong) could coach him a bit better on how to play scum. Because that would make him a better player.
Vote: Pacovf
This is either town playing against their win conditions, or a blatant scum post. You clearly have a very good head on your shoulders and I just can't imagine you actively playing against your win conditions. This post is flagrant enough to warrant a vote almost on its own. SK can get advice after the game, and you surely had to know that.
It's town playing against their win condition. Or rather, player trying to make the game more interesting. SK had all but 100% confirmed he was scum by then. That leaves only one scum to get three mislynches by himself, with probably investigative roles around. That was going to be rather lopsided.
PPE 6. Sheesh people are you really gonna quickhammer me?
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Uhh no SK wasn't damn near scum, what are you talking about?
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Wow I'm not used to 9 player games. In day 1 I kept thinking there was 3 scum members and now I keep getting surprised at how fast we can reach L1
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This last post of mine was in bad faith, yes, but you didn't really answer my last accusations either, so it's a wash.
Going out now, won't be able to reply on the spot.
Something also to look at would be any newbies who pushed the case of "lets not lynch a newbie day one". Team of two newbies wants a vet lynch d1.
Haha true! I'll wait for your full case though if you don't mind.
One of Eevee's points in his case made this connection for me.
Here, I'm saying that I want to look at newbies who don't want to lynch a newbie D1. I didn't mention pacovf, wasn't aware that pacovf had made that argument.
However, if you read it in a certain way, pacovf took this to be directed at him -- saying he'll wait for my full case before he's going to respond to it. I hadn't mentioned pacovf, wasn't meaning it to be directed at him, but he took it that way.
Is anyone else reading it in this way, or am I just crazy?
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Also even though pacovf was fighting the sk lynch. All I see from him is a town member having a stronger read on TA then SK. I still think he's town
No I had a stronger read on SK than on TA. But SK was just burying himself, I wanted to give him a chance to reach N1, where his scumpartner (if my read on TA was wrong) could coach him a bit better on how to play scum. Because that would make him a better player.
Vote: Pacovf
This is either town playing against their win conditions, or a blatant scum post. You clearly have a very good head on your shoulders and I just can't imagine you actively playing against your win conditions. This post is flagrant enough to warrant a vote almost on its own. SK can get advice after the game, and you surely had to know that.
It's town playing against their win condition. Or rather, player trying to make the game more interesting. SK had all but 100% confirmed he was scum by then. That leaves only one scum to get three mislynches by himself, with probably investigative roles around. That was going to be rather lopsided.
PPE 6. Sheesh people are you really gonna quickhammer me?
This is absolutely false. If you thought this, you were flat out lying to everyone D1.
Were you flat out lying to everyone D1?
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Vote Count 2.2
mail-mi (1): Hydrad
pacovf (2): Eevee, mail-mi
Twistedarcher (1): pacovf
Not Voting (3): Zappie, Witherweaver, Twistedarcher
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
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Wow I'm not used to 9 player games. In day 1 I kept thinking there was 3 scum members and now I keep getting surprised at how fast we can reach L1
suffering the same problem :P
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No, whoever is scum is the sole partner of sk. He didn't want that lynch to go through at all.
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Maaaaaaaan you are not doing yourself any favours. I still don't want to lynch a newbie Day one (especially less so now that one of them has been replaced by a vet) so I won't push you more than this: you just muddied your read on Zappie, when it was very strong at first, minimized your decision to vote for him, hid behind joth, follow with a non-sequitur to turn attention away from you ("it's nice to have a clear wagon we can analyze"). Dude, you better start earning town points now. If it comes down to lynching you or no lynch, you just convinced me to hammer.
Town points you say? I will do my best.
Eevee: Hi, welcome, things and stuff. And thanks for replacing whats-his-face.
Down to business. Really, Eevee could go both ways IMO. He has been playing rather well, giving the good guy reads and being the good townie. But really, nothing he has said has been crazy good or crazy bad, so theres really no good way to tell. Leaning town here, but could very easily be scum. I mean, hes a vet, guys.
WW seems to be genuinely trying to scumhunt, in that hes always been a strong supporter of a wagon, be it me, or pacovf, or whatever. Town, IMO, but I wanna do a reread of him and go more in depth.
more to come
Can it really be this obvious? I mean, he wasn't 100% scum and ensured to be the lynch, but he was pretty obvious about it...
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he being SK
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Oh, come on, that's just said in bad faith. That thread is stickied on the Mafia Games board. Anyway, I've said everything I had to say about this line of reasoning, and you yourself have admitted that it wasn't a solid case, so I'll just drop it for the time being.
I'd like to hear more from other people. vote: SK because only him and Mail-mi have votes on them (other than us two) right now, and I think Mail-mi is V/LA.
Casually dropping a vote on his partner when it's early and it doesn't matter yet, to create easy interactions with each other.
Weak.
Everybody, my username is pacovf, with an "f" after the "v". "pavlov" was a funny mispell, you can call me that if you want.
You have. In that case…I don't think pacov is scum. Other than that, I have nothing. I still am wondering why Joth doesn't give things and stuff D1, that isnt helpful, right?
It is probably cause there IS no substance D1. But it looks like there is…
Yeah, I dunno, Joth. Why no substance?
Why are you so fixed on Joth? He's a bit jokey, but he has also written a reasonably insightful post not so long ago about WW's case on me; most people haven't yet written anything half as thought out. Maybe you are just attacking him because he voted for you?
Coaching your partner, trying to dissolve the situation?
I was putting pressure on SK. Not sure how you read that as trying to dissolve the situation.
What exactly is scummy in his response? Isn't it basically the same as mine?
Defending SK.
For the record, I didn't think that post was scummy at all. It was indeed the same as mine, and I didn't understand why people were reacting differently.
It's an answer, I guess...
Anyway, for the time being, Vote: Infinite Duress. Exactly zero posts since the game started.
After TA and joth quickly pile on SK, pavocf throws his vote to a zero poster as a way to focus attention away from SK. This is really scummy I think. Both the target (it's very safe and easy) and the fact he appeared right after there was movement towards SK, but didn't address it at all.
I had addressed that movement. I said that I didn't think his post was scummy, and we had no information at that time. I was much more interested on Zappie's slip, which was a huge enigma at that time. You can't pretend to be able to put pressure on two people at the same time. So when I saw I couldn't get anything from Zappie, I pushed ID who had been 3 days without posting anything at all.
I can see either Zappie or SK, but I'm sticking with Zappie right now. In my first game as town I overexplained and was almost lynched for it, because I figured that stream of consciousness positing was harder to fake. SK's post sort of read similar to me I guess.
Request prod for Infinite Duress
So in your first game as town you did exactly what SK did. That's why you say you could lynch him today.
See a problem with your logic?
Defending SK.
Still didn't have any new information. Not to mention that Joth was also defending SK with his post, I just didn't understand it at first.
I would really like to hear from Infinite Duress, but I guess he might not be on during the week-end. The last time he was active was Aug 13, before the game started... If he hasn't said anything by Monday night, I guess I'll do a reread and try to find something new, I don't have any strong scum reads right now, or rather not strong enough to lynch a newbie D1.
In the meantime, I would like to hear Mail-mi's and Hydrad's opinion on the SK case, I think they haven't said anything about it yet. Oh and I would be interested in joth's read on me so far, if that's something I can ask.
Dismisses the case on SK as "not convincing enough to lynch a new player over").
The second paragraph reads towny to me though. It's not in scumpacovfs interest to bring the SK case back to the table
If your case is that my "no newb lynch D1 policy" is bad for town, there's not much I can say to defend myself, aside from my crazytown-ish argument I mentioned before. Thanks for noting that I have mentioned that SK's case was strong, I guess.
(http://[quote author=pacovf link=topic=11486.msg412159#msg412159 date=1408446786)These two consecutive posts, pacovf first goes through the SK case, says he sees merit to it but doesn't want to vote, and then on the next posts reminds everyone of townslipgate, and wonders if we should do Zappie after all.
I was doing a full review of the situation from my point of view. See how I address the townie people afterwards. This is exactly the same thing you do as your first two posts, remember?
(http://[quote author=pacovf link=topic=11486.msg412191#msg412191 date=1408458628)
"I could go for SK, but I'll build a case against TA and vote for him."
Yes, my "no newb lynch D1" policy is bad for town, I know.
Before I start my defense, I would like to keep the pressure on TA. Vote: Twistedarcher BTW. For those that are convinced that TA is town, I need to hear your precise reasons, because I just can't see it right now.
Well, for starters he voted for our flipped goon, didn't for example try to distract away from that lynch at every turn or anything like that.
You are misremembering. He voted for SK alright, but then he took his vote and moved it to Hydrad right after SK's two super-scummy posts; you actually thought his case was good! Really, the same case you are building against me (sans convenient "no newb lynch D1" policy) could be constructed against TA no problem. Think about it.
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Also PPE 17 or something.
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This last post of mine was in bad faith, yes, but you didn't really answer my last accusations either, so it's a wash.
Going out now, won't be able to reply on the spot.
Something also to look at would be any newbies who pushed the case of "lets not lynch a newbie day one". Team of two newbies wants a vet lynch d1.
Haha true! I'll wait for your full case though if you don't mind.
One of Eevee's points in his case made this connection for me.
Here, I'm saying that I want to look at newbies who don't want to lynch a newbie D1. I didn't mention pacovf, wasn't aware that pacovf had made that argument.
However, if you read it in a certain way, pacovf took this to be directed at him -- saying he'll wait for my full case before he's going to respond to it. I hadn't mentioned pacovf, wasn't meaning it to be directed at him, but he took it that way.
Is anyone else reading it in this way, or am I just crazy?
Dude, I've been the only person advocating "no newb lynch D1", newbie or otherwise. Don't pretend you didn't know you were accusing me there.
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TA would indeed be my second choice. (mailmi being the third option I think is even remotely realistic right now).
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TA would indeed be my second choice. (mailmi being the third option I think is even remotely realistic right now).
That's actually good enough for me.
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Pacovf, we're going to continually being at odds until you understand that my style of posting is clearly different from yours.
You asked what I thought about Hydrad. I said I don't want to lynch him. That's a clear statement, change in opinion, especially given that I did what to lynch him yesterday. I don't possibly know how you see that as me not answering your opinion -- I don't feel like writing an essay about it and I'm just not going to, sorry but you are going to have to deal with that.
Saying stuff like "Town read on WW" "Want to lynch Hydrad" "I think Eevee is towny", even if that's the entire post, is definitely getting an opinion down. I have no clue why you're insisting it's not, but that's how I am playing, and I'm not going to change that.
I don't want an essay, but I think that just saying "I don't want to lynch X" can mean anything. Before that, you said that you wanted to lynch off-wagon. That automatically excludes Hydrad. I know you don't want to lynch him. I want to know if your reason for not wanting to lynch him is "I want to lynch off-wagon" or "I find him townie". They're radically different in my point of view.
I find him towny.
I know this is a point of contention between the two of us. But I will say it one last time. Before I jumped on you D1, your opinions were:
-town read on WW
-vote SK
-case on Hydrad
That's three people out of six (I'm being generous and forgetting about the two lurkers, mail-mi and ID). You didn't state your opinion on joth, me, or Zappie. I was very active by any reasonable metric, and Zappie had given a hell of a post back then. You weren't stating your opinions as much as you say you were.
I am not excluding the possibility that you are town. But I believe I am not the only person that has trouble understanding what the other means. I can understand you not wanting to change your playstyle, that's perfectly fine. But if you honestly believe I should consider this enough by then, I guess the best I can do is wait until this game is over so that we can talk more calmly so that I can learn to understand you.
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I'm not quoting the right post, this was more an answer to your exasperation regarding my case.
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Pacovf what's your read on me?
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Also even though pacovf was fighting the sk lynch. All I see from him is a town member having a stronger read on TA then SK. I still think he's town
No I had a stronger read on SK than on TA. But SK was just burying himself, I wanted to give him a chance to reach N1, where his scumpartner (if my read on TA was wrong) could coach him a bit better on how to play scum. Because that would make him a better player.
Vote: Pacovf
This is either town playing against their win conditions, or a blatant scum post. You clearly have a very good head on your shoulders and I just can't imagine you actively playing against your win conditions. This post is flagrant enough to warrant a vote almost on its own. SK can get advice after the game, and you surely had to know that.
It's town playing against their win condition. Or rather, player trying to make the game more interesting. SK had all but 100% confirmed he was scum by then. That leaves only one scum to get three mislynches by himself, with probably investigative roles around. That was going to be rather lopsided.
PPE 6. Sheesh people are you really gonna quickhammer me?
This is absolutely false. If you thought this, you were flat out lying to everyone D1.
Were you flat out lying to everyone D1?
Before I started my case on you, I said I thought he was the scummiest player. My case on you also relied partially on SK being scum. I don't know what you mean when you say I lied.
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Pacovf what's your read on me?
I haven't reread you. I'm leaning slight town on you.
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It is awfully late over here. If there is something you want me to answer, do it in the next 15 minutes, otherwise you'll have to wait.
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Ok, going to bed.
If you get bored of talking about my case while I sleep, I would appreciate if you could talk about Eevee so that I get something interesting to read tomorrow morning. I would prefer if you could put some pressure on TA instead, but it looks like I am the only person alive that thinks he's scummy, so I'll have to make-do with Eevee.
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not caught up, but I really don't think scum says the stuff Pacofv has been saying.
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not caught up, but I really don't think scum says the stuff Pacofv has been saying.
I agree. Which makes me want to vote eevee even more since he's the biggest one to start this wagon. But I still like my mailmi vote
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Oh hey nothing new. I guess this will give me time to read all these things that just happened and that I didn't have the time to analyze? I have to do some RL stuff first though. Well, there's this thing that came back to my mind while I was trying to sleep:
TA would indeed be my second choice. (mailmi being the third option I think is even remotely realistic right now).
Yesterday your strongest townreads were TA and me. I can see why your position on me has changed. Nowhere do you address your radical change of heart on TA.
How do you guys actually deal with all the information? - i feel like i need to get a piece of paper and draw all kinds of arrows
That's more or less what I do. You note who attacks who and how harshly, and who votes for whom. Also who defends whom. You try to take conclusions out of that. If a turn of words catches your attention, you note it down too.
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So, the things that TA has done up until now scream scum to me. I've got the feeling that people think I am tunneling him, since neither WW nor Hydrad want to touch my case on him with a 10-feet pole. I do think my case on him is better than people think, but fair enough, I guess.
There is one thing though, one thing, that makes him earn so many towny points that I think I might have to reconsider.
this is good. I like it. vote: pacovf
Unvote that was L-1. We have time.
Back then, everybody was online and active. I was under a lot of fire. A derphammer was a real possibility, I don't know how many people had noticed that I was at L-1 for a while. Had I been derphammered, I don't think anyone would have thought much of it. The situation was confusing, and the case on me looked good enough.
Mail-mi gets scum points from putting me at L-1 without announcing it though.
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not caught up, but I really don't think scum says the stuff Pacofv has been saying.
I agree. Which makes me want to vote eevee even more since he's the biggest one to start this wagon. But I still like my mailmi vote
This argument reads "pacofv has been too obviously working the scum angle, therefore he can't be scum". I think it's mistaken, because the only reason it's so obvious is that we lynched SK. Losing half their team is really bad for scum in this setup. It's bad enough that to my knowledge scum has never won any of the newbie games after losing a member day 1.
Had pacovf's redirection been successful, we'd now know that pacovf was derailing away from the SK lynch towards a town lynch (that is, if anyone would have noticed), but not that the alternate target would have been scum. I mean, I'm asking you, what was pacovf supposed to do? Just watch his partner go down without a fight?
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Now, there are two approaches here, after this great start we've had. Some want to go for the perfect game, and lynch whoever they think has the highest chance of making that happen, period.
Others prefer to maximize our chances of winning the game, period. Assuming no help from our power roles, we have exactly three lynches to hit the remaining scum. In this case, I actually think pacofv is both the most likely individiual scum (due to his interactions with the case on SK), but also our best route to victory, as his town flip would pretty heavily implicate TA. I think Zappie and WW would be the kills for scum (of course we get more information on this as the game progresses, but especially Zappie looks extremely towny at this point), which means if we want to maximize our win chances, we should figure out our kill order in such a way that we get the most out of our lynches. Pacofv dying and flipping town would validate his case on TA, and make mail-mi's actions today scummier. I don't know, I just have a hard time seeing the scum being anyone outside that trio. I guess this whole post boils down to that, and the rest is pretty worthless.
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Now, there are two approaches here, after this great start we've had. Some want to go for the perfect game, and lynch whoever they think has the highest chance of making that happen, period.
Others prefer to maximize our chances of winning the game, period. Assuming no help from our power roles, we have exactly three lynches to hit the remaining scum. In this case, I actually think pacofv is both the most likely individiual scum (due to his interactions with the case on SK), but also our best route to victory, as his town flip would pretty heavily implicate TA. I think Zappie and WW would be the kills for scum (of course we get more information on this as the game progresses, but especially Zappie looks extremely towny at this point), which means if we want to maximize our win chances, we should figure out our kill order in such a way that we get the most out of our lynches. Pacofv dying and flipping town would validate his case on TA, and make mail-mi's actions today scummier. I don't know, I just have a hard time seeing the scum being anyone outside that trio. I guess this whole post boils down to that, and the rest is pretty worthless.
How so?
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Now, there are two approaches here, after this great start we've had. Some want to go for the perfect game, and lynch whoever they think has the highest chance of making that happen, period.
Others prefer to maximize our chances of winning the game, period. Assuming no help from our power roles, we have exactly three lynches to hit the remaining scum. In this case, I actually think pacofv is both the most likely individiual scum (due to his interactions with the case on SK), but also our best route to victory, as his town flip would pretty heavily implicate TA. I think Zappie and WW would be the kills for scum (of course we get more information on this as the game progresses, but especially Zappie looks extremely towny at this point), which means if we want to maximize our win chances, we should figure out our kill order in such a way that we get the most out of our lynches. Pacofv dying and flipping town would validate his case on TA, and make mail-mi's actions today scummier. I don't know, I just have a hard time seeing the scum being anyone outside that trio. I guess this whole post boils down to that, and the rest is pretty worthless.
How so?
I would like and answer to this too.
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I would like *an* answer to this too.
Fixed.
Also, if you've got some time, I would like an explanation of how trying to win the game perfectly implies a different strategy than trying to win the game period.
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not caught up, but I really don't think scum says the stuff Pacofv has been saying.
I agree. Which makes me want to vote eevee even more since he's the biggest one to start this wagon. But I still like my mailmi vote
This argument reads "pacofv has been too obviously working the scum angle, therefore he can't be scum". I think it's mistaken, because the only reason it's so obvious is that we lynched SK. Losing half their team is really bad for scum in this setup. It's bad enough that to my knowledge scum has never won any of the newbie games after losing a member day 1.
Had pacovf's redirection been successful, we'd now know that pacovf was derailing away from the SK lynch towards a town lynch (that is, if anyone would have noticed), but not that the alternate target would have been scum. I mean, I'm asking you, what was pacovf supposed to do? Just watch his partner go down without a fight?
Uh, yes? I don't know why I am bothering to answer this since you won't believe me, but there are uncountable things that I could have done as scum that would make more sense than pushing TA's case. Pushing Zappie was safe. Pushing Hydrad was risky but could be done. I was also one of the top town reads. If I got SK lynched, mail-mi and you were going to die before I did, and I just need to find one more mislynch and win.
Yes, in a vacuum, it makes sense that scum tries to avoid that their scumpartner gets lynched. The way I went about it doesn't make any sense at all.
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Yesterday your strongest townreads were TA and me. I can see why your position on me has changed. Nowhere do you address your radical change of heart on TA.
When we lyncged scum, the situation changed drastically. Yesterday we were looking for the scummiest individual, nothing more to that. Today, we are looking for the most likely partner for SK, the scummiest person in the context that SK was scum. I know you claim that was a known fact yesterday already (which is so weird, and so not true at all), but it really changes everything.
Well, the wagon helps us PoE some characters. Zappie's hammer looks very towny, he deprived SK of a chance of claiming a power role and possibly outing someone. Very pro-town action, as it happens.
WW, initially voted for SK without explaining it, then provided a case against SK, and later affirmed he still likes the vote. The strong and unwavering push towards SK reads very towny.
Hydrad posted these:
Ya I'm interested in these sk votes without any reasons behind them
SKs post doesn't really feel scummy to me though so I'm interested in what part of it made ww suspicious
On the subject of the sk case I will say his post does seem more like a scum move then town. The only reason I'm not voting for him is because I felt the same way in my first few ges. And I didn't realize I was doing it until people told me how hedgy I was being. So I say it gives him scum points but I'm not convinced enough to vote on him yet
On the subject of the sk case I will say his post does seem more like a scum move then town. The only reason I'm not voting for him is because I felt the same way in my first few ges. And I didn't realize I was doing it until people told me how hedgy I was being. So I say it gives him scum points but I'm not convinced enough to vote on him yet
Apparently you're still being hedgy :p
Gut read on sk, town or scum, if you had to pick right now -- which one is it?
Still scum. I believe even before that post I said I thought he was scum too. The biggest reason I'm not voting for him is that I like my mailmi vote more. He seems like he's not even in this game which is weird to me. Mailmi are you vla and I've missed the post about it?
But, then, in the next post voted for SK after realizing mailmi was VLA, and kept his vote there until the lynch. It was looking scummy for a while, but he came around without external pressure, and kept his vote there until the lynch, so ultimately this looks on the townier side for me.
TA:
Now, it all began like it did for WW, with a vote on SK without explanation. But whereas WW kept his vote on SK and even pushed the case further, TA reacted to Hydrad's third vote on the wagon by creating a case on Hydrad. Hydrad wins more town points from me for jumping at the SK when he did. It was right after pacofv suggested ID, had Hydrad waited there, someone might have joined pacovf on ID, or he could have even voted there himself to buy some time and move the momentum away from SK. Back to TA, the timing on his case on Hydrad is very suspicious, especially now that we know SK was scum (the case came right when the wagon started gaining real momentum) and now that Hydrad seems townier. Until the end of the day, TA kept saying how scummy he finds SK, but never voted for him again, until Zappie cut the discussion short.
So, I don't know. The voting pattern is scummy, but he maintained his suspicion throughout the day, and would have been forced to hammer unless something really extreme happened. What he did just doesn't seem like something a scum partner wants to do. It's of no use to condone the lynch without pushing it, if it's going to happen anyways. I'd expect scum to either give up and go for the hard push (unlikely, because it's day 1 and losing a member sucks for scum), or to fight it with their alternative lynches and actively seek for another target. TA's resignation is neither, so off this reread I'm actually finding him townier again. pacofv, what do you think of this angle?
mailmi:
vote: ID he needs to talk.
Vote: SK
Vote: SK
reasons?
This is obviously scummy.
After this, mailmi's second post was "could go for SK, would prefer to see a better case", and that's literally everything. If pacofv is town, mailmi's L-1 vote today was opportunistic, but again, you'd think he would have done more of that yesterday already. I think "silently condoning their partner going down" is the least likely scum action, however busy mailmi was.
Wow, about midway through this post my browser suddenly closed itself, but when I reopened it all the text was still intact. What a happy surprise!
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Now, there are two approaches here, after this great start we've had. Some want to go for the perfect game, and lynch whoever they think has the highest chance of making that happen, period.
Others prefer to maximize our chances of winning the game, period. Assuming no help from our power roles, we have exactly three lynches to hit the remaining scum. In this case, I actually think pacofv is both the most likely individiual scum (due to his interactions with the case on SK), but also our best route to victory, as his town flip would pretty heavily implicate TA. I think Zappie and WW would be the kills for scum (of course we get more information on this as the game progresses, but especially Zappie looks extremely towny at this point), which means if we want to maximize our win chances, we should figure out our kill order in such a way that we get the most out of our lynches. Pacofv dying and flipping town would validate his case on TA, and make mail-mi's actions today scummier. I don't know, I just have a hard time seeing the scum being anyone outside that trio. I guess this whole post boils down to that, and the rest is pretty worthless.
How so?
Changed my mind upon doing the legwork. Pacofv, I'm sorry, but I think the relevant information here is interactions around SK and the wagon on SK. Your case on TA seems to revolve around intangibles like meta and tone, which I just don't find as reliable as the concrete scum flip we have.
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I would like *an* answer to this too.
Fixed.
Also, if you've got some time, I would like an explanation of how trying to win the game perfectly implies a different strategy than trying to win the game period.
Upon writing, I realized that concept isn't really relevant here. That post is pretty meaningless filler, shouldn't have posted.
But a scenario where A has claimed cop with a scum result on B, A's claim looks very suspect but we can afford a mislynch would be one. It doesn't apply here, because you or anyone flipping town doesn't exonorate anyone at this point.
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not caught up, but I really don't think scum says the stuff Pacofv has been saying.
I agree. Which makes me want to vote eevee even more since he's the biggest one to start this wagon. But I still like my mailmi vote
This argument reads "pacofv has been too obviously working the scum angle, therefore he can't be scum". I think it's mistaken, because the only reason it's so obvious is that we lynched SK. Losing half their team is really bad for scum in this setup. It's bad enough that to my knowledge scum has never won any of the newbie games after losing a member day 1.
Had pacovf's redirection been successful, we'd now know that pacovf was derailing away from the SK lynch towards a town lynch (that is, if anyone would have noticed), but not that the alternate target would have been scum. I mean, I'm asking you, what was pacovf supposed to do? Just watch his partner go down without a fight?
Uh, yes? I don't know why I am bothering to answer this since you won't believe me, but there are uncountable things that I could have done as scum that would make more sense than pushing TA's case. Pushing Zappie was safe. Pushing Hydrad was risky but could be done. I was also one of the top town reads. If I got SK lynched, mail-mi and you were going to die before I did, and I just need to find one more mislynch and win.
Yes, in a vacuum, it makes sense that scum tries to avoid that their scumpartner gets lynched. The way I went about it doesn't make any sense at all.
Whose way does?
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Now, there are two approaches here, after this great start we've had. Some want to go for the perfect game, and lynch whoever they think has the highest chance of making that happen, period.
Others prefer to maximize our chances of winning the game, period. Assuming no help from our power roles, we have exactly three lynches to hit the remaining scum. In this case, I actually think pacofv is both the most likely individiual scum (due to his interactions with the case on SK), but also our best route to victory, as his town flip would pretty heavily implicate TA. I think Zappie and WW would be the kills for scum (of course we get more information on this as the game progresses, but especially Zappie looks extremely towny at this point), which means if we want to maximize our win chances, we should figure out our kill order in such a way that we get the most out of our lynches. Pacofv dying and flipping town would validate his case on TA, and make mail-mi's actions today scummier. I don't know, I just have a hard time seeing the scum being anyone outside that trio. I guess this whole post boils down to that, and the rest is pretty worthless.
How so?
Changed my mind upon doing the legwork. Pacofv, I'm sorry, but I think the relevant information here is interactions around SK and the wagon on SK. Your case on TA seems to revolve around intangibles like meta and tone, which I just don't find as reliable as the concrete scum flip we have.
Sweet merciful Heavens, I so wish people stopped saying that my case is solely based on my misunderstanding of TA's meta.
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not caught up, but I really don't think scum says the stuff Pacofv has been saying.
I agree. Which makes me want to vote eevee even more since he's the biggest one to start this wagon. But I still like my mailmi vote
This argument reads "pacofv has been too obviously working the scum angle, therefore he can't be scum". I think it's mistaken, because the only reason it's so obvious is that we lynched SK. Losing half their team is really bad for scum in this setup. It's bad enough that to my knowledge scum has never won any of the newbie games after losing a member day 1.
Had pacovf's redirection been successful, we'd now know that pacovf was derailing away from the SK lynch towards a town lynch (that is, if anyone would have noticed), but not that the alternate target would have been scum. I mean, I'm asking you, what was pacovf supposed to do? Just watch his partner go down without a fight?
Uh, yes? I don't know why I am bothering to answer this since you won't believe me, but there are uncountable things that I could have done as scum that would make more sense than pushing TA's case. Pushing Zappie was safe. Pushing Hydrad was risky but could be done. I was also one of the top town reads. If I got SK lynched, mail-mi and you were going to die before I did, and I just need to find one more mislynch and win.
Yes, in a vacuum, it makes sense that scum tries to avoid that their scumpartner gets lynched. The way I went about it doesn't make any sense at all.
Whose way does?
If I am scum, attacking TA doesn't make any sense. There are easier targets. And lynching SK is strictly better than what I did. TA and mail-mi are not the only people that mentioned SK scumminess without voting for him. I did too, and you recognized it in your case against me. You say that if you are scum, either you bus or you don't, but you don't push without voting.
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WW: Started the wagon, consistently helped push it, never advocated other targets.
TA: Started the wagon, built a competing case against a different player at a critical time, but maintained a scummy read on SK throughout, and never truly appeared to fight the lynch.
Zappie: Hammered SK without giving them a chance to claim.
mailmi: Was ridiculously absent. Only post cited a scum read on SK, but a preference of a stronger case.
Hydrad: The critical third vote to give the wagon steam. Had the option of waiting or choosing the alternate, easy target you provided him (that I know to be town).
pacofv: Multiple pushes away from the SK wagon. Convenient-seeming desire to lynch a vet day 1.
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Can you summarize your case on TA in short, concise points? I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you have, other than his posts being short or devoid of content. I'm also interested in how you'd rebut my argument of TA's way of silently condoning the SK-wagon being the most unlikely scum preference.
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TA:
Now, it all began like it did for WW, with a vote on SK without explanation. But whereas WW kept his vote on SK and even pushed the case further, TA reacted to Hydrad's third vote on the wagon by creating a case on Hydrad. Hydrad wins more town points from me for jumping at the SK when he did. It was right after pacofv suggested ID, had Hydrad waited there, someone might have joined pacovf on ID, or he could have even voted there himself to buy some time and move the momentum away from SK. Back to TA, the timing on his case on Hydrad is very suspicious, especially now that we know SK was scum (the case came right when the wagon started gaining real momentum) and now that Hydrad seems townier. Until the end of the day, TA kept saying how scummy he finds SK, but never voted for him again, until Zappie cut the discussion short.
So, I don't know. The voting pattern is scummy, but he maintained his suspicion throughout the day, and would have been forced to hammer unless something really extreme happened. What he did just doesn't seem like something a scum partner wants to do. It's of no use to condone the lynch without pushing it, if it's going to happen anyways. I'd expect scum to either give up and go for the hard push (unlikely, because it's day 1 and losing a member sucks for scum), or to fight it with their alternative lynches and actively seek for another target. TA's resignation is neither, so off this reread I'm actually finding him townier again. pacofv, what do you think of this angle?
See my original case on TA, it includes every argument you just mentioned and more:
...I could go for SK, though if there was another, better case that's be great.
Once again, I'll happily oblige. Just vote: Twisted Archer, we will lynch SK tomorrow, m'kay?
Disclaimer: I started my reread not wanting to lynch a newbie today, with a townread on Joth and WW (have you noticed he didn't know the setup very well at first? Do you see scum!WW letting that happen?), and not wanting to lynch mail-mi or Eevee because they haven't posted much yet. You do the math.
Now to my case. As you can imagine, I've been thinking about TA's case on Hydrad. I've done a full, slow reread to get where it came from.
-Hydrad has been reasonably active up until now, giving his thoughts on everything that happened, and enough explanations. He didn't think SK was scummy at first (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411579#msg411579), but after SK's most recent posts, he developed an unsure scumread on him. He later (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411935#msg411935) (wrongly) says that he had already mentioned his scumread on SK before.
-TA has been a bit less active, and his posts have less content. The only noteworthy post until his attack on Hydrad was his unjustified vote on SK (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411562#msg411562), which started the wagon on him but was only explained much later as "it looked fake" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411608#msg411608). After SK's most recent (and arguably much scummier) posts, he chooses to put Hydrad on the spot (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411917#msg411917), and moves his vote from SK to Hydrad (SK had three votes against him when Hydrad moved his vote). In contrast with Hydrad misremembering his posts, TA makes sure that he doesn't reference things that don't exist (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg412007#msg412007).
So yeah, I know it's very early to call the scumteam, but I am going to do it anyway, because the narrative just makes too much sense, especially in light of TA last post:
Joth, I think scum have no problem fighting, but I doubt they come out and do it on D1 directly.
I believe TA started the wagon on SK to distance himself from his scumpartner. He didn't give reasons, and when he did much later, they were weak. Because he wanted the wagon to fail. Quite some time later, when SK started digging a deep hole for himself and it looked like it was very very possible that he was getting lynched today, TA decided to abandon the wagon before it reached critical mass, and for that he needed a scapegoat. Notice how he is accusing Hydrad of the very same thing everybody else is accusing SK of. And now he goes and mentions that scum don't fight scum D1 just to make sure everybody remembers it when we analyze the SK wagon (read: he wants to have his cake and eat it too, since he left the SK wagon).
Other anecdotic evidence in my favour: in the original scummy post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411536#msg411536) by SK, SK asks why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappy, and seems to purposefully ignore the earlier and much stronger defense WW did (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411444#msg411444). Why? Because TA, in his usual let's-not-say-too-much style, had just said he had a town read on WW (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411470#msg411470).
Oh, and had I mentioned that Hydrad was the only person that had voiced suspicions against TA (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11486.msg411483#msg411483)?
The narrative makes too much sense for me to ignore it. I urge you to reconsider your votes.
PPE 2
If you think that my point about TA not having content is solely because I misunderstand his meta, see this post:
Pacovf, we're going to continually being at odds until you understand that my style of posting is clearly different from yours.
You asked what I thought about Hydrad. I said I don't want to lynch him. That's a clear statement, change in opinion, especially given that I did what to lynch him yesterday. I don't possibly know how you see that as me not answering your opinion -- I don't feel like writing an essay about it and I'm just not going to, sorry but you are going to have to deal with that.
Saying stuff like "Town read on WW" "Want to lynch Hydrad" "I think Eevee is towny", even if that's the entire post, is definitely getting an opinion down. I have no clue why you're insisting it's not, but that's how I am playing, and I'm not going to change that.
I don't want an essay, but I think that just saying "I don't want to lynch X" can mean anything. Before that, you said that you wanted to lynch off-wagon. That automatically excludes Hydrad. I know you don't want to lynch him. I want to know if your reason for not wanting to lynch him is "I want to lynch off-wagon" or "I find him townie". They're radically different in my point of view.
I find him towny.
I know this is a point of contention between the two of us. But I will say it one last time. Before I jumped on you D1, your opinions were:
-town read on WW
-vote SK
-case on Hydrad
That's three people out of six (I'm being generous and forgetting about the two lurkers, mail-mi and ID). You didn't state your opinion on joth, me, or Zappie. I was very active by any reasonable metric, and Zappie had given a hell of a post back then. You weren't stating your opinions as much as you say you were.
I am not excluding the possibility that you are town. But I believe I am not the only person that has trouble understanding what the other means. I can understand you not wanting to change your playstyle, that's perfectly fine. But if you honestly believe I should consider this enough by then, I guess the best I can do is wait until this game is over so that we can talk more calmly so that I can learn to understand you.
The only thing I don't mention is the fact that, later on, he was somewhat adamant that SK was scum, but didn't vote for him. If you really think that's an argument, then see this (that I did before):
Okay, so the popular belief now is that Zappie is scum, and trying to get advice from his partner. This confuses me. The mafia communicate via QT, yes? And they may not use it in the day, yes? And usually (at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious)) the mod does the "Thread Locked" thing or whatever. Wouldn't that be enough to let Zappie know that the mod doesn't want them to communicate during the day? Also, the VT thing looks like a trick. A pretty obvious trick. What could he, as a VT, possibly want to say? Vote: Zappie
Unvote. What if he is just town and made a mistake? He's a newbie just like me, and it sounds like something I would do.
Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie
I'm curious as to why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappie.
Okay, here we go.
When I posted this^^^, and many of my posts before and after this, you'll notice that the first little paragraph-type-thing is an argument. The next one is a rebuttal, and so on. I do this because it helps me think. When I posted my reaction, I was decided. I thought for sure that Zappie was scum. That's why the middle post was so small, I could hardly think of a rebuttal to what I had said.
If this method of doing stuff makes me look scummy, I guess I wont do it anymore. (Theres actually an interesting backstory as to why I do this, but I don't feel like writing much.)
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with your post. Some people say that you are hedging your position, some say that the stream of consciousness looks fake. I don't see any of that, I see a fairly clear-cut position, your ending argument ("Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie") is very strong, and the way you explain how you get there is just a rhetoric device. No scum points.
I think the vets jumped on you because it's day one, there are no strong cases around, you do something that ticks too many boxes in the "scumhunting checklist", booyah, have a bandwagon.
But then you get some pressure and you reply these.
Where ehunt posted like seventeen times in a row? Priceless.
Oh, votes on me. Fun. Well, in response to WW, that makes sense. But think about it: lets say Zappie is town. I am simply putting a bit of pressure on him. And Joth said wagons were powerful, so yeah. It looked like a scumslip to me, so I jumped on it once I saw the reasoning behind it. I cant say that I didn't react the way you said I did, but to be frank, if Zappie is scum, thats also how the town would react. (assuming Zappie is scum)
Hmm. Zappies defense was sort of interesting. I guess its buyable, but I'm still wondering. I mean, he specified that he was VT for seemingly no reason. I guess he goes go down a bit, but Im still leaning towards scum.
Its nice to have a clear wagon we can analyze. I do want to see more from Mail-mi and Infinite Duress.
Maaaaaaaan you are not doing yourself any favours. I still don't want to lynch a newbie Day one (especially less so now that one of them has been replaced by a vet) so I won't push you more than this: you just muddied your read on Zappie, when it was very strong at first, minimized your decision to vote for him, hid behind joth, follow with a non-sequitur to turn attention away from you ("it's nice to have a clear wagon we can analyze"). Dude, you better start earning town points now. If it comes down to lynching you or no lynch, you just convinced me to hammer.
I couldn't escape hammering SK either, if it came to that.
mailmi:
vote: ID he needs to talk.
Vote: SK
Vote: SK
reasons?
This is obviously scummy.
After this, mailmi's second post was "could go for SK, would prefer to see a better case", and that's literally everything. If pacofv is town, mailmi's L-1 vote today was opportunistic, but again, you'd think he would have done more of that yesterday already. I think "silently condoning their partner going down" is the least likely scum action, however busy mailmi was.
Scum is either you, TA, or mail-mi. So if you try to convince me that neither TA or mail-mi are scum, there's a problem.
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TA also started the wagon on me today, even though he pretends he didn't, with this post:
Something also to look at would be any newbies who pushed the case of "lets not lynch a newbie day one". Team of two newbies wants a vet lynch d1.
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I notice now that, in light of our most recent discussion on his meta, I would rephrase some poorly-worded sentences in my original case against TA that don't do him justice. But the spirit of the argument stays the same.
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It all seems awfully circumstantial. It's still so much of "he didn't put down an opinion on everyone". I'm not saying that's towny, but it's not exactly hard to fabricate opinions. I agree, in an ideal vote everyone is on record about everyone, and we have a full plate of interactions to analyze. However, now that SK flipped, it's just not a big deal anymore he never addressed joth or mail-mi, we know they can't be scum partners anyways because there is just one scum left.
If it isn't clear, I'm struggling here. You are working very hard, it's hard to not give you town points for that, and you've reached mostly the same conclusions as me (I have you not TA as #1, and of course neither of us suspects themselves). The scum narrative on you isn't perfect, mainly because you too condoned the SK lynch more than I would have liked (in the end). But I still think you are our best bet, due to the pushes away from SK when it wasn't clear who we were lynching.
Don't worry though, if you flipped town TA and mail-mi would be the duo I'd look at next.
It's hard to create meaningful interactions anymore, because scum and town alike are now in "anyone but me"-mode. Well, unless there are townies who truly buy into "it doesn't matter when we win, as long as we win". We have three lynches, I think literally everyone wants to use them on some combination of myself/pacofv/mailmi/TA. No one has attempted to build a case against me and I didn't need to reread myself because I know my alignment already, so I don't know how strong my position is right now as far as convincing you not to use a lynch on me.
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So, in short pacofv, despite there being some flaws in the narrative against you, I think that's still the cleanest, because some of the things you did were quite damning. If you were to flip town, I'd turn my eye towards mailmi and TA, and hope I can convince the rest of the town I'm fighting the good fight along the way.
Zappy and WW I think are damn near impossible, and Hydrad looks quite towny too. I'd go mailmi over TA, because the case against him being scum is "he just wasn't there", which isn't the greatest of defenses in this game, exactly when it appears no one else fits the partner mold to the dot either.
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Yeah we are in quite good shape especially given that we are ensured to have a power role that can confirm a town member each night(in the absence of roleblocking). Cop was always strong but jail keeper and tracker are much stronger with only one town member alive and we are guaranteed to have one of them.
I'm cool with either pacovf or mail-mi, I don't know why the common assumption is that eevee is the next most likely, why is he likelier than say ww or hydrad?
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A couple of things you said, I found very suspect. I might build a case on you (if I don't, WW will). TA has won townie points from putting me away from L-1 at a time where I was in danger of being derphammered. I don't know about mail-mi, this is my first mafia game, I don't know how useful lurking is as scum.
It all seems awfully circumstantial. It's still so much of "he didn't put down an opinion on everyone". I'm not saying that's towny, but it's not exactly hard to fabricate opinions. I agree, in an ideal vote everyone is on record about everyone, and we have a full plate of interactions to analyze. However, now that SK flipped, it's just not a big deal anymore he never addressed joth or mail-mi, we know they can't be scum partners anyways because there is just one scum left.
The fact that he didn't address joth, mail-mi and Zappie isn't so worrying as the fact that, when I pushed him because of that, he flat-out stated that he had a lot of content. And sure, now we know that joth or mail-mi aren't his scumpartners, but back then it was a hedgy thing to do.
So, in short pacofv, despite there being some flaws in the narrative against you, I think that's still the cleanest, because some of the things you did were quite damning. If you were to flip town, I'd turn my eye towards mailmi and TA, and hope I can convince the rest of the town I'm fighting the good fight along the way.
Hey, I won't blame anyone if I end up lynched, I've stated already that I knew that what I was doing was anti-town and that it would come back to bite me. Still, if I do end up lynched, we only get two more lynches, so I want to influence your future decisions as much as possible while I still can.
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Yeah we are in quite good shape especially given that we are ensured to have a power role that can confirm a town member each night(in the absence of roleblocking). Cop was always strong but jail keeper and tracker are much stronger with only one town member alive and we are guaranteed to have one of them.
I'm cool with either pacovf or mail-mi, I don't know why the common assumption is that eevee is the next most likely, why is he likelier than say ww or hydrad?
I would say, the fact that WW or Hydrad haven't yet stated any intent to vote for me gives them a fair share of townie points. Other than that, WW was active D1 and pushed SK's case. Hydrad is kind of a tossup.
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Eevee has both been pushing my case hard and talking in great lengths about what town has to do if I flip town. Is that common?
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"It still felt hedgy at the time" is just the kind of irrelevant noise I was referring to! If TA is scum, he isn't scum with Zappie or joth or mailmi. I think you are mixing finding scum with punishing
antitown behavior.
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Pacovf, I don't have any bias against you, I'm going through the evidence, and it's pointing towards you. Hey, you even seem to admit so yourself. I understand trying to get your thoughts down so you can help us from beyond the grave, and that's great. But is it fair to give me scum points for pushing you when you admit yourself thats what the evidence is saying?
If you are town, please convince me the case on someone else is stronger! The narrative for you isn't perfect, but as far as I can see it's the most likely.
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"It still felt hedgy at the time" is just the kind of irrelevant noise I was referring to! If TA is scum, he isn't scum with Zappie or joth or mailmi. I think you are mixing finding scum with punishing
antitown behavior.
That wasn't my argument. If TA was scum he knew they were town. But he couldn't know whether town will want to lynch them or not:
-If he says he thinks they are town and later town wants to lynch them, he has to make the wagon less likely if he wants to stay consistent, or change his mind and people will call him out on that.
-If he says he thinks they are scummy, he has to build a case and put a lot of attention of himself.
Withholding your opinion gives you greater flexibility and helps you stay consistent.
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FYI, pacovf, I'd unvote someone at L-1 regardless of my alignment (and so would most players) -- I don't think it's something that you can read into, it's more of a rote behavior at this point than anything else.
Something to remember too is that not only did Zappie quickhammer, he quickhammered about a week before deadline. So saying I never switched my vote back to SK is fine, but keep in mind that it's not like I had 10 days to do it and I didn't move it -- I just didn't announce intent to hammer. I preferred Hydrad at that point, I probably would have been fine hammering SK but honestly I hadn't thought about it yet, we still had so much time.
We also had a short D1, and it's not unusual to not have opinions on people after only half of D1 (and really, we only had half of a D1).
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Eevee has both been pushing my case hard and talking in great lengths about what town has to do if I flip town. Is that common?
Well, no need to waste energy on planning how we'll celebrate if you flip scum. I'm just trying to
concentrate on things that are relevant to winning, and how we'll proceed tomorrow if we miss today is certainly an important part.
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"It still felt hedgy at the time" is just the kind of irrelevant noise I was referring to! If TA is scum, he isn't scum with Zappie or joth or mailmi. I think you are mixing finding scum with punishing
antitown behavior.
That wasn't my argument. If TA was scum he knew they were town. But he couldn't know whether town will want to lynch them or not:
-If he says he thinks they are town and later town wants to lynch them, he has to make the wagon less likely if he wants to stay consistent, or change his mind and people will call him out on that.
-If he says he thinks they are scummy, he has to build a case and put a lot of attention of himself.
Withholding your opinion gives you greater flexibility and helps you stay consistent.
I wasn't withholding my opinion, I just didn't have anything noteworthy to say! We were less than 10 pages and less than a week into the game when you started your "TA doesn't have opinions!" case that you've been continually referring to.
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Yeah we are in quite good shape especially given that we are ensured to have a power role that can confirm a town member each night(in the absence of roleblocking). Cop was always strong but jail keeper and tracker are much stronger with only one town member alive and we are guaranteed to have one of them.
I'm cool with either pacovf or mail-mi, I don't know why the common assumption is that eevee is the next most likely, why is he likelier than say ww or hydrad?
I would say, the fact that WW or Hydrad haven't yet stated any intent to vote for me gives them a fair share of townie points. Other than that, WW was active D1 and pushed SK's case. Hydrad is kind of a tossup.
Why is it that someone's opinion on you specifically should be the biggest factor in their alignment?
Consider for a second -- if you're town, town members don't know your alignment while scum does. If scum wants to be "correct" about your alignment, it's easy, while it's hard for town. So if you're town, the "correctness" of someone's read on you shouldn't and doesn't correlate directly with their alignment.
The majority of any wagon on town is almost always incorrect town rather than mafia -- sure, mafia might be more likely to choose to support the lynch, but it's not as simple to say "This person's voting me -- scum points!" and "This person hasn't voted me yet -- town points!"
The last time I saw this, it was with PingPongSam in Diffusion of Power. The entirety of D1, he was talking about how certain players were planning to set him up and plan his lynch, and based all of his scum reads based on the fact. Sure enough, he was scum. It's a logical jump over the step of "could the person voting me be mistaken", and going directly to "proving that the person voting me is scummier than I am". It doesn't read as an attempt to find scum to me -- it reads as an attempt at self-preservation at all costs.
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Hum, it looks like I'll have to do a slow reread again.
Something to remember too is that not only did Zappie quickhammer, he quickhammered about a week before deadline. So saying I never switched my vote back to SK is fine, but keep in mind that it's not like I had 10 days to do it and I didn't move it -- I just didn't announce intent to hammer. I preferred Hydrad at that point, I probably would have been fine hammering SK but honestly I hadn't thought about it yet, we still had so much time.
I know. But the same argument is used against me. Of course, it's not the only argument. But I have to point inconsistencies when I find them.
Pacovf, I don't have any bias against you, I'm going through the evidence, and it's pointing towards you. Hey, you even seem to admit so yourself. I understand trying to get your thoughts down so you can help us from beyond the grave, and that's great. But is it fair to give me scum points for pushing you when you admit yourself thats what the evidence is saying?
If it sounds like I am giving you scum points for pushing me, I haven't made myself clear somewhere. The case against me is solid. I am giving townie points for not pushing my case, because I know I am town though.
Also I know you don't have any bias against me, don't worry.
PPE 2: I wasn't withholding my opinion, I just didn't have anything noteworthy to say! We were less than 10 pages and less than a week into the game when you started your "TA doesn't have opinions!" case that you've been continually referring to.
Hey, if you had said this before, I would have stopped pushing that argument. You hadn't actually addressed it until now. You were saying that it was your posting style that was throwing my scum-radar off. Maybe you can see my position now?
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I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
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I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
It's still not a sensible position. Shouldn't you give me town points for pushing the lynch that you agree is logical from the evidence we have?
Seems like your #1 interest is discouraging people from pushing you, subtly telling them they won't get heat from you as long as they don't suspect you.
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I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
But scum's goal isn't to get the easiest lynch today, scum has to survive like 3-4 more days.
Imagine Hydrad is scum. Why would he push you, when you're likely to get lynched regardless, and then he can turn on the people pushing the case? Why do you think scum would want to push you over pushing any other player?
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I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
Let me reword myself. One of your starting posts today was that you wanted to lynch off-wagon. Do you think tomorrow you will say that you will lynch on-wagon? Maybe yes, maybe not. I look scummy enough that my whole wagon could be misguided town. Which means that voting for me is safe.
Compare that to the other case. If WW or Hydrad are scum, when they said they didn't think I was scum, they would be betting on town lynching me by themselves. Which is clearly risky when compared to just straight voting for me. I find it unlikely.
PPE 2
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I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
I'm not pushing an easy lynch. I'm building a very concrete and fact-based case against the most active player of the game who was universally thought of as a town read yesterday. You even said so yourself, the facts I've presented are legit and they point towards you.
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I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
It's still not a sensible position. Shouldn't you give me town points for pushing the lynch that you agree is logical from the evidence we have?
Seems like your #1 interest is discouraging people from pushing you, subtly telling them they won't get heat from you as long as they don't suspect you.
Waah way to misread me. Yes, voting for me is sensible. That's why scum gets a free pass at voting for me. So voting for me is null. On the other hand, not voting for me is risky as scum. I don't see scum taking risks when they still have 3 mislynchs to push.
I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
But scum's goal isn't to get the easiest lynch today, scum has to survive like 3-4 more days.
Imagine Hydrad is scum. Why would he push you, when you're likely to get lynched regardless, and then he can turn on the people pushing the case? Why do you think scum would want to push you over pushing any other player?
Who would scum push today, rather than me?
I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
I'm not pushing an easy lynch. I'm building a very concrete and fact-based case against the most active player of the game who was universally thought of as a town read yesterday. You even said so yourself, the facts I've presented are legit and they point towards you.
Hum, when SK flipped town, you look at people and you see this one guy who was trying to lynch someone else based on a flimsy meta-argument. Yeah, it's not a hard lynch.
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You are straight up saying that voting for you is the sensible thing to do, but those who play sensible are scummier than those who don't.
You are giving me scum point for rereading, finding the evidence and
building a case you yourself admit has merit.
I don't know, just seems to me like a last effort to discourage people from voting for you, not like an honest read from a town player interested in helping town win after their lynch.
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I didn't just turn my eyes to you. I looked at everyone, even provided short summaries and tried to see is they fit. I think you fit the best.
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I still wanna lynch mailmi.... But I can't really build a case vs someone who has 2 scummy posts and that's it.
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You are straight up saying that voting for you is the sensible thing to do, but those who play sensible are scummier than those who don't.
You are giving me scum point for rereading, finding the evidence and
building a case you yourself admit has merit.
I don't know, just seems to me like a last effort to discourage people from voting for you, not like an honest read from a town player interested in helping town win after their lynch.
Again, I am saying that people not voting for me are townier than people voting, not that people voting for me are scummier than people not voting. I am finding scum by eliminating town.
Also, I hope that I will be given time at some point to do in-depth analysis of what's being going on, instead of this frantic defense I am currently practicing.
PPE: YES THE FRICKING CASE AGAINST ME IS GOOD AND I KNOW IT. I AM NOT SAYING THAT PUSHING MY CASE IS SCUMMY AND YOU ARE DOING AN AWESOME JOB OF IT. IF YOU ARE TOWN I WILL BUY YOU A COFFEE AFTER THE GAME.
Geez!
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I think we are all in agreement about the case against you and the merits and problems it had.
I think the towniest thing for you to do here would be to try to build alternate cases. If you know the case on you is wrong, find the real scum for us so we'll know where to look after your flip!
What you seem to be doing now is trying to fight the case, which just is a losing battle after you yourself admitted how solid it is.
We have three lynches, I think you'd realize you need to be one of them if you were town, and would adjust your play accordingly. Scum obviously can't resign to
that fate, as they'll just lose if they are lynched.
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I still wanna lynch mailmi.... But I can't really build a case vs someone who has 2 scummy posts and that's it.
that's problematic indeed. you think it's mailmi because the fairly nonexistent case seems better than what we have on pacovf (because he seems towny to you)? If so, is it just a feeling or can you explain it? Not the suspicion on mailmi, I get that, but why you do feel pacovf is townier than "two posts, one of them moderately scummy"?
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I think we are all in agreement about the case against you and the merits and problems it had.
I think the towniest thing for you to do here would be to try to build alternate cases. If you know the case on you is wrong, find the real scum for us so we'll know where to look after your flip!
What you seem to be doing now is trying to fight the case, which just is a losing battle after you yourself admitted how solid it is.
We have three lynches, I think you'd realize you need to be one of them if you were town, and would adjust your play accordingly. Scum obviously can't resign to
that fate, as they'll just lose if they are lynched.
-->
Also, I hope that I will be given time at some point to do in-depth analysis of what's being going on, instead of this frantic defense I am currently practicing.
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we are only scummy or towny in relation to others in a game. giving someone town points for not doing it is akin to giving me scum points to doing it. there is a fixed amount of scum in the game.
I'm just saying that's another awfully convenient position for your scum narrative.
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for sure. :) you haven't even been asked to claim yet! Sorry if I'm declaring your lynch as too much of a done deal. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say, especially regarding other possibilities.
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we are only scummy or towny in relation to others in a game. giving someone town points for not doing it is akin to giving me scum points to doing it. there is a fixed amount of scum in the game.
I'm just saying that's another awfully convenient position for your scum narrative.
If I were scum, I wouldn't be in the position I am right now, because the end of D1 would have been very different. If somehow I were crazy enough to do what I did D1 as scum, then I don't know how I would be reacting to the accusations today. I don't know how convenient what I've been saying would be for me. But it seems like everything I do is convenient, so whatever.
I'll take a deep breath and do a reread some time later today or tomorrow. Everything I had to say has been said and repeated. But I think that saying X is scum because Y and Z can't be scum is way different than outright saying that X is scum. You need different arguments to fight each position.
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*Everything I had to say about my defense, not about other people.
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Well, to be totally honest, I'm very likely to keep pushing you today, unless you find something I completely missed. But I'll at the very least promise to take your words to careful consideration tomorrow. If you are town, you should see how this is a fair deal, even if it feels frustrating right now.
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I still wanna lynch mailmi.... But I can't really build a case vs someone who has 2 scummy posts and that's it.
that's problematic indeed. you think it's mailmi because the fairly nonexistent case seems better than what we have on pacovf (because he seems towny to you)? If so, is it just a feeling or can you explain it? Not the suspicion on mailmi, I get that, but why you do feel pacovf is townier than "two posts, one of them moderately scummy"?
Hmm I guess it's just a gut feeling mainly. But I wouldn't say I have a town read at this point. Ring now I would have mailmi then eevee then pacovf as top lynch candidates. But if we try to just win the game instead of try to get the flawless I think mailmi is the better lynch as if he's town I don't think he will be contributing much unfortunately. (Nothing against you mailmi. I understand your vla. Sorry)
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Well, to be totally honest, I'm very likely to keep pushing you today, unless you find something I completely missed. But I'll at the very least promise to take your words to careful consideration tomorrow. If you are town, you should see how this is a fair deal, even if it feels frustrating right now.
I don't find the case against me frustrating at all, because I knew it was coming. It's the "oh so not voting for you is townie and voting for you is scummy, how convenient" that I find frustrating. My original argument only applies because the case against me is easy. If it were less clear-cut, I wouldn't even mention it. Of course it is convenient that I say so, but I honestly believe it and I won't be able to say it once I am dead.
Now that I think about it, I should have waited until after I got hammered to say it, but meh.
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It's been a while since he heard from WW or Zappie, I would like to hear what they have to say.
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These posts are moving a little too fast for me to stay up at the moment. I've been reading back, but I'm going to have to go back to the beginning of the day at some point.
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Vote Count 2.3
mail-mi (1): Hydrad
pacovf (2): Eevee, mail-mi
Twistedarcher (1): pacovf
Not Voting (3): Zappie, Witherweaver, Twistedarcher
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
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Mail-mi gets scum points from putting me at L-1 without announcing it though.
Wow I'm not used to 9 player games. In day 1 I kept thinking there was 3 scum members and now I keep getting surprised at how fast we can reach L1
suffering the same problem :P
if I had realized the L number was lower than I thought, i would've announced it
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what is VLA and PPE (number)
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what is VLA and PPE (number)
V/LA = Vacancy/Limited Access. It means that Real Life impacts your availability to post or follow the game.
PPE = Pre-post Edit. When you are going to post something, sometimes the forum warns you that some people have replied since you last refreshed the site. When you say PPE (number), you are saying that you haven't read the last (number) posts before you wrote yours.
Other acronyms can be found here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0).
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PPE and VLA were not on the list
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Why was I actually not killed in the night? As the (fortunate) hammer I think I am the most likely town. The Last mafia should kill the most likely townie persons right so that we can have the most mislynches?
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Why was I actually not killed in the night? As the (fortunate) hammer I think I am the most likely town. The Last mafia should kill the most likely townie persons right so that we can have the most mislynches?
Maybe scum thought that other people were just as likely to be thought of as town. Maybe they thought you weren't as active as others. Maybe they were afraid that the doctor would protect you. There are many reasons, really.
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You claimed VT. Scum wanted to kill someone towny who could have also been a power role.
Don't make any comments on your role anymore. There is still the backdoor of you making an awesome move and actually being a pr. We want to keep that kept open, however narrowly.
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In general, if you expect to be killed and are left alive, especially if it goes on for multiple nights, you might want to start reconsidering your reads.
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I just finished a quick reread, I will do a longer one now and try to get informed reads from it. Hopefully I will manage to stay objective now.
I have to say, I am not proud of my performance D2.
Yeah we are in quite good shape especially given that we are ensured to have a power role that can confirm a town member each night(in the absence of roleblocking). Cop was always strong but jail keeper and tracker are much stronger with only one town member alive and we are guaranteed to have one of them.
I'm cool with either pacovf or mail-mi, I don't know why the common assumption is that eevee is the next most likely, why is he likelier than say ww or hydrad?
I would say, the fact that WW or Hydrad haven't yet stated any intent to vote for me gives them a fair share of townie points. Other than that, WW was active D1 and pushed SK's case. Hydrad is kind of a tossup.
Ok, I definitely see now TA's and Eevee's point about how this is all too convenient for scum. I apologize for losing my temper yesterday, everything was a bit too quick and I didn't have the time to think. Looks like I've got much to learn!
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It's okay. Either way, you are playing a great first game. :)
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Ha. Oof. Done with the reread. There's no way I am ever going to spend this much time analyzing a mafia game, ever. I still have to organize my thoughts a bit before posting any conclusions. Plus, I would rather ask some questions first.
Let's start with something that nobody is going to understand. Eevee, I've got a question for you.
I have to ask that you assume for a moment that I am town. Back in Day 1, Zappie posted a weird pseudo VT claim. I immediately thought that it was a constructed VT-slip. However, I did not want to get Zappie lynched over it, because in my opinion D2 and afterwards is much more representative of a mafia game than D1. Should I have attacked or voted for Zappie anyway?
-As a sort of middleground, I drew attention to the post, and WW defended it. Should I have attacked or voted for Zappie then?
-Imagine I hadn't attacked Zappie then. If 4 people came to his defense, should I have attacked or voted for Zappie then?
Of course, now we are fairly sure that Zappie is town, but I am asking you to make the decision based on the information I had back then.
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I mean, I think you should always be honest about your reads, and certainly not stare them because you are worried it results in a violation of your policy about not lynching a new player, or something.
I'm sorry, I guess I don't really understand the question. Why not give your honest reads in all the scenarios?
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Ok, good to know.
I have some questions before I give my reads. This might take some time.
@TA:
Assume you get your way, but the inconceivable happens. Today I am lynched. I flip town. Tomorrow Mail-mi is lynched. He flips town. Who would you lynch? Eevee, WW, or Hydrad?
@WW:
You haven't said much at all since the case on me started. I would like to hear your opinion. I'll help you:
Well, I understand not wanting to lynch a newbie, but it is a newbie game, so they can't really all get a pass. In regular games it makes sense, but here a good fraction of the players are new. I mean, what if the team is two newbies?
You said this to me while I was refusing to vote for SK because he was a newbie. Logically, you should be voting for me today. Why aren't you even saying that I look scummy?
There's also a non-standard idea that's been planted in my head while I was doing the reread, but that needs some testing.
@Everybody:
if you had to describe SK's play from yesterday with one or two adjectives, which ones would you use? To help you refresh your memory, here's his very first post:
Okay. For future reference, I am a guy. And I live in this place called the city of darkness.
Anyway, I think this is nonsense. We shouldn't lynch WW for supposedly being scum every time. We shoudnt lynch pacov for jumping on bandwagons or creating them or whatever. And we definitely shoulnt lynch me for my name. D1 Lynch is a lottery from what I've heard. I agree with pacov, lets drop this and do something important.
What? Important? This is RVS, so they say. Which means things wont be important until later. Well, they wont be AS important at least. And D1 lynch is a lottery, but that doesn't mean we should slack off and not do anything. We need to move people. Which makes me ask: Joth, why no substance D1?
I mean, no substance isnt helpful or town-friendly.
But…it isn't important. At all. None of this is. Isnt this what you guys call Actilurking? Or something like that…
I don't know. I'm new, so help me out here.
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a lighter version of desperate
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I like Zappie's description.
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@WW:
You haven't said much at all since the case on me started. I would like to hear your opinion. I'll help you:
Well, I understand not wanting to lynch a newbie, but it is a newbie game, so they can't really all get a pass. In regular games it makes sense, but here a good fraction of the players are new. I mean, what if the team is two newbies?
You said this to me while I was refusing to vote for SK because he was a newbie. Logically, you should be voting for me today. Why aren't you even saying that I look scummy?
Mainly because I don't think you'd quite be so bold as to try to prevent your partner SK from getting lynched in that way. It would either be (in my opinion) poor play on your part to so directly entwine yourself with SK, or really good play to go a level further and think people would argue "surely he wouldn't do that..". Based on the way you've played so far, I don't think it's the first case. The second case is possible, but I have doubts from it coming from a first-time player.
Additionally, well, I need to catch up still, but it feels like today has been pretty much everyone saying that you're guilty except maybe Hydrad and myself. I don't really think Hydrad is scum. My general feeling is that when a lynch feels "easy", it's usually on town. So that, in addition to the way you've been playing so far, makes me think it's more likely that the last scum is someone in the "lynch Pacovf" pool.
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There's also a non-standard idea that's been planted in my head while I was doing the reread, but that needs some testing.
@Everybody:
if you had to describe SK's play from yesterday with one or two adjectives, which ones would you use? To help you refresh your memory, here's his very first post:
Okay. For future reference, I am a guy. And I live in this place called the city of darkness.
Anyway, I think this is nonsense. We shouldn't lynch WW for supposedly being scum every time. We shoudnt lynch pacov for jumping on bandwagons or creating them or whatever. And we definitely shoulnt lynch me for my name. D1 Lynch is a lottery from what I've heard. I agree with pacov, lets drop this and do something important.
What? Important? This is RVS, so they say. Which means things wont be important until later. Well, they wont be AS important at least. And D1 lynch is a lottery, but that doesn't mean we should slack off and not do anything. We need to move people. Which makes me ask: Joth, why no substance D1?
I mean, no substance isnt helpful or town-friendly.
But…it isn't important. At all. None of this is. Isnt this what you guys call Actilurking? Or something like that…
I don't know. I'm new, so help me out here.
Contentless.
There are lots of words there, but they don't have much substance.
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Contentless.
There are lots of words there, but they don't have much substance.
Oh I like this one. I was trying to find a good word to use but couldn't think of the right one that expressed my feelings.
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"Trying to mask his contentlessness" is my answer.
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In general, if you expect to be killed and are left alive, especially if it goes on for multiple nights, you might want to start reconsidering your reads.
I was just thinking, this would be a particularly manipulative thing to say as scum to a new player who you decide to leave alive.
Though, I don't think any newbies are suspecting you here.
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In general, if you expect to be killed and are left alive, especially if it goes on for multiple nights, you might want to start reconsidering your reads.
I was just thinking, this would be a particularly manipulative thing to say as scum to a new player who you decide to leave alive.
Though, I don't think any newbies are suspecting you here.
I think it's a trap most people, including veterans, fall into too often. It's not good to get too married to your early reads. If they were that good, you probably wouldn't be alive anymore.
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WW, if you don't see pacofv being scum, who do you suspect then?
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gogo mailmi
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mailmi, i will stop giving you the inactivity pass at some point. you should start giving us content.
if you are too busy to reread, there have been numerous summaries posted by others.
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WW, if you don't see pacofv being scum, who do you suspect then?
Mail-mi by more or less default/poe, aided a bit by his weak hedge with SK. TA is a real possibility, again mostly PoE. Then there is still you.
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Once TA answers the questions, I will post my reads. I would like mail-mi's answer too, but that might take longer.
In general, if you expect to be killed and are left alive, especially if it goes on for multiple nights, you might want to start reconsidering your reads.
I was just thinking, this would be a particularly manipulative thing to say as scum to a new player who you decide to leave alive.
Though, I don't think any newbies are suspecting you here.
I think it's a trap most people, including veterans, fall into too often. It's not good to get too married to your early reads. If they were that good, you probably wouldn't be alive anymore.
But scum doesn't only lynch based on how good your reads are, right? I would guess your conf!town status, or fishing for PRs, or plain WIFOM also have a lot of weight on scum's decisions.
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Yeah, that theories applies most for longer games, and situation where you have survived for days. Still, it's always healthy to keep thinking why scum has made the choices they have.
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Shouldn't we be analyzing joth's death, then? This is a honest, no-hidden-thoughts, question.
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mailmi, i will stop giving you the inactivity pass at some point. you should start giving us content.
if you are too busy to reread, there have been numerous summaries posted by others.
Sorry, I should have some time today to do stuff.
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Shouldn't we be analyzing joth's death, then? This is a honest, no-hidden-thoughts, question.
Yes!
Zappie, who came out the towniest from day 1, had already claimed VT, so he was out of the question. My instinct is that after him, there wasn't a clear "towniest" person, and for some reason they picked joth over WW (or me, or Hydrad). Seems very worthwhile to reread joth to see if we can figure out what the reason was. I'll do it soon.
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Shouldn't we be analyzing joth's death, then? This is a honest, no-hidden-thoughts, question.
Yes!
Zappie, who came out the towniest from day 1, had already claimed VT, so he was out of the question. My instinct is that after him, there wasn't a clear "towniest" person, and for some reason they picked joth over WW (or me, or Hydrad). Seems very worthwhile to reread joth to see if we can figure out what the reason was. I'll do it soon.
I'll do this as well.
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The only thing I can find is joth seemed open to pacovfs TA-case, even to the point of changing his vote there (fortunately, only after SK was already hammered). This is actually very significant! It makes pacofv look townier, since why would he give joth, who seemed most sympathetic towards his TA case, and TA look scummier, because, d'uh.
Of course, it's pacofv who nudged me towards looking, so I have to consider if he meant for me to find this. I think, if he was scum and had this up his sleeve the whole time, he would have blurted it out at some point when we had the active real-time back-and-forth where I attacked him pretty heavily, so I'm less concerned about this being his plan all along.
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As far as I can see mail-mi, there is literally nothing else, so I'd rather suggest you look at our suspects here (me, TA, pacofv, whoever it is you suspect or better yet, multiple people). Joth wasn't giving any reads, he struggled between voting Zappy or SK, but it doesn't seem relevant now because so was everyone else, and because Zappy seems very likely to be town.
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I think I want to look at the narrative of TA being scum again.
I recognize that I'm hesitant to back off from pacofv now, because I would feel and look very foolish if he was scum and I let it go. It's like emotional insurance to ride that train until the end, because it's not nearly as humiliating to be consistently wrong than it is to be right and be convinced otherwise by a skilled scum player.
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really, i just reread him, and his kill only really makes sense to me if it comes from pacovf (or another newbie like zappie, but i really dont' think he's scum) because he was kind of wishy-washy on pacovf and so pacovf could have tried to kill him to try to alieviate suspicion from himself, not knowing that eevee would come out against him like this today.
i'll leave my vote there.
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The only thing I can find is joth seemed open to pacovfs TA-case, even to the point of changing his vote there (fortunately, only after SK was already hammered). This is actually very significant! It makes pacofv look townier, since why would he give joth, who seemed most sympathetic towards his TA case, and TA look scummier, because, d'uh.
Of course, it's pacofv who nudged me towards looking, so I have to consider if he meant for me to find this. I think, if he was scum and had this up his sleeve the whole time, he would have blurted it out at some point when we had the active real-time back-and-forth where I attacked him pretty heavily, so I'm less concerned about this being his plan all along.
but he was also having a wavering scum read on pacovf.
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As far as I can see mail-mi, there is literally nothing else, so I'd rather suggest you look at our suspects here (me, TA, pacofv, whoever it is you suspect or better yet, multiple people). Joth wasn't giving any reads, he struggled between voting Zappy or SK, but it doesn't seem relevant now because so was everyone else, and because Zappy seems very likely to be town.
yeah I'll look at something like that after I do my biology homework
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The only thing I can find is joth seemed open to pacovfs TA-case, even to the point of changing his vote there (fortunately, only after SK was already hammered). This is actually very significant! It makes pacofv look townier, since why would he give joth, who seemed most sympathetic towards his TA case, and TA look scummier, because, d'uh.
Of course, it's pacofv who nudged me towards looking, so I have to consider if he meant for me to find this. I think, if he was scum and had this up his sleeve the whole time, he would have blurted it out at some point when we had the active real-time back-and-forth where I attacked him pretty heavily, so I'm less concerned about this being his plan all along.
I'm very sure this has been brought up already today.
Not sure who i would want to lynch at this point after mail-mi or pacovf.
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The only thing I can find is joth seemed open to pacovfs TA-case, even to the point of changing his vote there (fortunately, only after SK was already hammered). This is actually very significant! It makes pacofv look townier, since why would he give joth, who seemed most sympathetic towards his TA case, and TA look scummier, because, d'uh.
Of course, it's pacofv who nudged me towards looking, so I have to consider if he meant for me to find this. I think, if he was scum and had this up his sleeve the whole time, he would have blurted it out at some point when we had the active real-time back-and-forth where I attacked him pretty heavily, so I'm less concerned about this being his plan all along.
but he was also having a wavering scum read on pacovf.
Literally the last thing he did was trying to vote for TA. Seems more significant than a wavering scumread.
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I'm pretty surprised at the Joth kill. I would have expected a more active townie (myself, actually) to die. This may point to a more veteran scum who was worried about what Joth may do later, maybe because he's played with Joth before. Personally, I had no read on Joth whatsoever.
Did Joth even put out any reads?
Joth is the nightkill that hurts me the most. My strongest townread was on him (I said it back then). He thought my case on TA was good, but would rather wait for D2 to push him. He did eventually agree with me and vote against TA, but it was too late.
The single best lynch tonight was WW. Zappie was close to confirmed town, but he hasn't been active. I was close to obvtown yesterday, but my position had this glaring "don't lynch newbs D1" hole. Since there weren't any role softclaims, there's no fishing for PR.
Why would they lynch someone else, then? Because they are dangerous. Assume for a moment that TA is scum. He is not going to lynch me when there's a case to be made against me. Plus, if I die it all but confirms he is scum. So the best thing he can do is lynch joth, who had come around to see my case against TA, and then today I am alone.
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The only thing I can find is joth seemed open to pacovfs TA-case, even to the point of changing his vote there (fortunately, only after SK was already hammered). This is actually very significant! It makes pacofv look townier, since why would he give joth, who seemed most sympathetic towards his TA case, and TA look scummier, because, d'uh.
Of course, it's pacofv who nudged me towards looking, so I have to consider if he meant for me to find this. I think, if he was scum and had this up his sleeve the whole time, he would have blurted it out at some point when we had the active real-time back-and-forth where I attacked him pretty heavily, so I'm less concerned about this being his plan all along.
I'm very sure this has been brought up already today.
Not sure who i would want to lynch at this point after mail-mi or pacovf.
If it has, I totally missed it. Anyone remember who it was?
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The only thing I can find is joth seemed open to pacovfs TA-case, even to the point of changing his vote there (fortunately, only after SK was already hammered). This is actually very significant! It makes pacofv look townier, since why would he give joth, who seemed most sympathetic towards his TA case, and TA look scummier, because, d'uh.
Of course, it's pacofv who nudged me towards looking, so I have to consider if he meant for me to find this. I think, if he was scum and had this up his sleeve the whole time, he would have blurted it out at some point when we had the active real-time back-and-forth where I attacked him pretty heavily, so I'm less concerned about this being his plan all along.
but he was also having a wavering scum read on pacovf.
Literally the last thing he did was trying to vote for TA. Seems more significant than a wavering scumread.
true. makes me have a bigger scum read on TA as well, but also on pacovf because of the beginnning of the day. i can see a newbie being scared because wasn't joth one of the only ones to put suspicion on him for the whole day?
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The only thing I can find is joth seemed open to pacovfs TA-case, even to the point of changing his vote there (fortunately, only after SK was already hammered). This is actually very significant! It makes pacofv look townier, since why would he give joth, who seemed most sympathetic towards his TA case, and TA look scummier, because, d'uh.
Of course, it's pacofv who nudged me towards looking, so I have to consider if he meant for me to find this. I think, if he was scum and had this up his sleeve the whole time, he would have blurted it out at some point when we had the active real-time back-and-forth where I attacked him pretty heavily, so I'm less concerned about this being his plan all along.
but he was also having a wavering scum read on pacovf.
Literally the last thing he did was trying to vote for TA. Seems more significant than a wavering scumread.
true. makes me have a bigger scum read on TA as well, but also on pacovf because of the beginnning of the day. i can see a newbie being scared because wasn't joth one of the only ones to put suspicion on him for the whole day?
i may be remembering that totaly wrong, and he might've gotten more suspicion. i really need to reread everything...
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Going to bold an unrelated part of this that's also scummy:
I'm pretty surprised at the Joth kill. I would have expected a more active townie (myself, actually) to die. This may point to a more veteran scum who was worried about what Joth may do later, maybe because he's played with Joth before. Personally, I had no read on Joth whatsoever.
Did Joth even put out any reads?
Joth is the nightkill that hurts me the most. My strongest townread was on him (I said it back then). He thought my case on TA was good, but would rather wait for D2 to push him. He did eventually agree with me and vote against TA, but it was too late.
The single best lynch tonight was WW. Zappie was close to confirmed town, but he hasn't been active. I was close to obvtown yesterday, but my position had this glaring "don't lynch newbs D1" hole. Since there weren't any role softclaims, there's no fishing for PR.
Why would they lynch someone else, then? Because they are dangerous. Assume for a moment that TA is scum. He is not going to lynch me when there's a case to be made against me. Plus, if I die it all but confirms he is scum. So the best thing he can do is lynch joth, who had come around to see my case against TA, and then today I am alone.
Does not really make sense from a towny perspective. Let's remember that this was a D1 case, and not a great one. All the stuff that's been brought up today, including Joth's nightkill, was not part of the original case. Pacovf is clearly just looking for any evidence he can to support the case that he's already on record making.
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That is scummy, but you pointing it like that after all this time and given recent developments, also feels suspect to me.
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Regarding the quote itself, WW, I don't think people think you are any less of a threat late in the game than joth. I think you are both perceived as strong players, more or less equally so.
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Regarding the quote itself, WW, I don't think people think you are any less of a threat late in the game than joth. I think you are both perceived as strong players, more or less equally so.
Right, but it's clear that Pacovf already knew the answer the the question he asked today -- he had already drawn the conclusion that he thought it pointed to me several days ago. He just wanted to pose the question because he wanted people to draw the conclusion that I'm scum and I killed joth because I was so scared of him!
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Regarding the quote itself, WW, I don't think people think you are any less of a threat late in the game than joth. I think you are both perceived as strong players, more or less equally so.
Right, but it's clear that Pacovf already knew the answer the the question he asked today -- he had already drawn the conclusion that he thought it pointed to me several days ago. He just wanted to pose the question because he wanted people to draw the conclusion that I'm scum and I killed joth because I was so scared of him!
To me it seems like he, whether he knew what I'd find or not, pointed me towards new information, from which I'm drawing my conclusions now.
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Vote: pacovf L-1. Definitely who I want to lynch today.
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Unvote
Not ready yet, either way.
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I will say for me my strongest townread is TA with zappie right behind
then WW is townish for me while pacovf is null for me
eevee seems scummy and mailmi is who I want to lynch.
Thats where I stand on this and I don't think there is much you guys can say that will make me want to lynch TA. His posts feel really towny to me. I'm terrible at explaining why I think people are towny so I'm sorry for that but I really think we should try other people.
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But, but...
Shouldn't we be analyzing joth's death, then? This is a honest, no-hidden-thoughts, question.
:'(
For what it's worth, I've since given up on analyzing the night kill. Hydrad pointed right after that quote of mine that there were too many ways to analyze a nightkill, and that I could have perfectly killed joth to make my case on TA stronger. After he said that, I realized that I could easily fit joth's death in the narrative of two other players being scum, so yeah: better to ignore it.
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He did vote TA during twilight.
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Also this recent exchange between Eevee and TA is confusing my reads so much.
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Also this recent exchange between Eevee and TA is confusing my reads so much.
Why?
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Oh I missed a bunch of messages somehow.
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He did vote TA during twilight.
Who are you answering, here?
Also this recent exchange between Eevee and TA is confusing my reads so much.
Why?
Well, I will say after I post my reads.
TA, could you answer my question about SK?
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What question?
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He did vote TA during twilight.
Who are you answering, here?
Also this recent exchange between Eevee and TA is confusing my reads so much.
Why?
Well, I will say after I post my reads.
TA, could you answer my question about SK?
I missed the last page. I was responding to this from like two pages ago:
Shouldn't we be analyzing joth's death, then? This is a honest, no-hidden-thoughts, question.
Yes!
Zappie, who came out the towniest from day 1, had already claimed VT, so he was out of the question. My instinct is that after him, there wasn't a clear "towniest" person, and for some reason they picked joth over WW (or me, or Hydrad). Seems very worthwhile to reread joth to see if we can figure out what the reason was. I'll do it soon.
But people already brought that up.
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@mail-mi and Twistedarcher:
There's also a non-standard idea that's been planted in my head while I was doing the reread, but that needs some testing.
@Everybody:
if you had to describe SK's play from yesterday with one or two adjectives, which ones would you use? To help you refresh your memory, here's his very first post:
Okay. For future reference, I am a guy. And I live in this place called the city of darkness.
Anyway, I think this is nonsense. We shouldn't lynch WW for supposedly being scum every time. We shoudnt lynch pacov for jumping on bandwagons or creating them or whatever. And we definitely shoulnt lynch me for my name. D1 Lynch is a lottery from what I've heard. I agree with pacov, lets drop this and do something important.
What? Important? This is RVS, so they say. Which means things wont be important until later. Well, they wont be AS important at least. And D1 lynch is a lottery, but that doesn't mean we should slack off and not do anything. We need to move people. Which makes me ask: Joth, why no substance D1?
I mean, no substance isnt helpful or town-friendly.
But…it isn't important. At all. None of this is. Isnt this what you guys call Actilurking? Or something like that…
I don't know. I'm new, so help me out here.
The only thing I can find is joth seemed open to pacovfs TA-case, even to the point of changing his vote there (fortunately, only after SK was already hammered).
Why would you say that the quickhammer was fortunate? I think joth would have come back to SK eventually (see his post previous to changing his vote), but the fact that the discussion was cut short is definitely bad for town. Now the case on TA is all over the place, never addressed properly. I think if we had waited a bit before hammering SK, TA's towniness (or lack thereof) would be much clearer than it is now.
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We got scum day 1. That's just incredibly good.
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Scummy? But we already know he's scum so I don't understand the point of this exercise
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We got scum day 1. That's just incredibly good.
Agreed. Pacovf, why are you 100% convinced I'm scum (and why were you so convinced D1?) The level of certainty you have here just doesn't seem to be adding up.
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@mail-mi and Twistedarcher:
There's also a non-standard idea that's been planted in my head while I was doing the reread, but that needs some testing.
@Everybody:
if you had to describe SK's play from yesterday with one or two adjectives, which ones would you use? To help you refresh your memory, here's his very first post:
Okay. For future reference, I am a guy. And I live in this place called the city of darkness.
Anyway, I think this is nonsense. We shouldn't lynch WW for supposedly being scum every time. We shoudnt lynch pacov for jumping on bandwagons or creating them or whatever. And we definitely shoulnt lynch me for my name. D1 Lynch is a lottery from what I've heard. I agree with pacov, lets drop this and do something important.
What? Important? This is RVS, so they say. Which means things wont be important until later. Well, they wont be AS important at least. And D1 lynch is a lottery, but that doesn't mean we should slack off and not do anything. We need to move people. Which makes me ask: Joth, why no substance D1?
I mean, no substance isnt helpful or town-friendly.
But…it isn't important. At all. None of this is. Isnt this what you guys call Actilurking? Or something like that…
I don't know. I'm new, so help me out here.
Newbie scum.
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Vote Count 2.4
mail-mi (1): Hydrad
pacovf (2): Twistedarcher, mail-mi
Twistedarcher (1): pacovf
Not Voting (3): Zappie, Witherweaver, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
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Vote Count 2.4
mail-mi (1): Hydrad
pacovf (2): Twistedarcher, mail-mi
Twistedarcher (1): pacovf
Not Voting (3): Zappie, Witherweaver, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
my vote was on pacovf before TA's.
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Going to bold an unrelated part of this that's also scummy:
I'm pretty surprised at the Joth kill. I would have expected a more active townie (myself, actually) to die. This may point to a more veteran scum who was worried about what Joth may do later, maybe because he's played with Joth before. Personally, I had no read on Joth whatsoever.
Did Joth even put out any reads?
Joth is the nightkill that hurts me the most. My strongest townread was on him (I said it back then). He thought my case on TA was good, but would rather wait for D2 to push him. He did eventually agree with me and vote against TA, but it was too late.
The single best lynch tonight was WW. Zappie was close to confirmed town, but he hasn't been active. I was close to obvtown yesterday, but my position had this glaring "don't lynch newbs D1" hole. Since there weren't any role softclaims, there's no fishing for PR.
Why would they lynch someone else, then? Because they are dangerous. Assume for a moment that TA is scum. He is not going to lynch me when there's a case to be made against me. Plus, if I die it all but confirms he is scum. So the best thing he can do is lynch joth, who had come around to see my case against TA, and then today I am alone.
Does not really make sense from a towny perspective. Let's remember that this was a D1 case, and not a great one. All the stuff that's been brought up today, including Joth's nightkill, was not part of the original case. Pacovf is clearly just looking for any evidence he can to support the case that he's already on record making.
Why doesn't it make sense from a townie perspective? I'll ignore the fact that, apparently, you are completely unaware of what my orginal case was.
For the record, I've also mentioned that Joth's death could easily be explained by the fact that he was unlikely to be doctored, while still on the good side of null.
We got scum day 1. That's just incredibly good.
What is this answering?
Agreed. Pacovf, why are you 100% convinced I'm scum (and why were you so convinced D1?) The level of certainty you have here just doesn't seem to be adding up.
I don't understand, I don't think I've ever said I was certain that you were scum. D1, I was as certain as you can be, considering that we had no hard facts. D2, I started attacking you because I was very annoyed by my case getting cut short, which gave you a free pass from answering my questions. Then Eevee pushed his case on me, and I didn't have time anymore to talk about anyone but me.
Scummy? But we already know he's scum so I don't understand the point of this exercise
I want you to qualify his scumplay, rather. I guess I should have been more specific in my question.
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I'd qualify his scumplay as scummy. I really don't get the point of this. We know he's scum, we lynched him, why are we focusing on him? It's not going to lead anywhere, I don't see why you need to bring up an irrelevant question and insist that everyone gets an answer down on paper before we can proceed.
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I don't understand, I don't think I've ever said I was certain that you were scum. D1, I was as certain as you can be, considering that we had no hard facts. D2, I started attacking you because I was very annoyed by my case getting cut short, which gave you a free pass from answering my questions.
I mean, if I was 100% sure that you were scum, why would I do something like this:
Now, there are two approaches here, after this great start we've had. Some want to go for the perfect game, and lynch whoever they think has the highest chance of making that happen, period.
Others prefer to maximize our chances of winning the game, period. Assuming no help from our power roles, we have exactly three lynches to hit the remaining scum. In this case, I actually think pacofv is both the most likely individiual scum (due to his interactions with the case on SK), but also our best route to victory, as his town flip would pretty heavily implicate TA. I think Zappie and WW would be the kills for scum (of course we get more information on this as the game progresses, but especially Zappie looks extremely towny at this point), which means if we want to maximize our win chances, we should figure out our kill order in such a way that we get the most out of our lynches. Pacofv dying and flipping town would validate his case on TA, and make mail-mi's actions today scummier. I don't know, I just have a hard time seeing the scum being anyone outside that trio. I guess this whole post boils down to that, and the rest is pretty worthless.
How so?
I would like an answer to this too.
PPE:
I'd qualify his scumplay as scummy. I really don't get the point of this. We know he's scum, we lynched him, why are we focusing on him? It's not going to lead anywhere, I don't see why you need to bring up an irrelevant question and insist that everyone gets an answer down on paper before we can proceed.
I had an idea that could help find scum, but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't biased first, hence why I ask everyone's opinion.
If I've done something annoying or insulting to you, I apologize now. I've got nothing against you, and I would rather we kept the conversation level-headed.
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Ok, I will post my reads tonight. It will take some time, and I've got to finish dinner first!
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Vote Count 2.4.1
mail-mi (1): Hydrad
pacovf (2): mail-mi, Twistedarcher
Twistedarcher (1): pacovf
Not Voting (3): Zappie, Witherweaver, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
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We got scum day 1. That's just incredibly good.
Why I called Zappie's hammer fortunate. It ensured we got scum.
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SK's VOTES from a neutral perspective.
I see. Suppose that makes sense. Vote: Mail-mi then.
votes mail-mi because joth told him votes and wagons are good things. Could just be jumping on a townie wagon, or could be scum early bussing to distance (knowing i'm town, it's the first, but you don't know that.)
Okay, so the popular belief now is that Zappie is scum, and trying to get advice from his partner. This confuses me. The mafia communicate via QT, yes? And they may not use it in the day, yes? And usually (at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious)) the mod does the "Thread Locked" thing or whatever. Wouldn't that be enough to let Zappie know that the mod doesn't want them to communicate during the day? Also, the VT thing looks like a trick. A pretty obvious trick. What could he, as a VT, possibly want to say? Vote: Zappie
Unvote. What if he is just town and made a mistake? He's a newbie just like me, and it sounds like something I would do.
Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie
I'm curious as to why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappie.
really hedgy one on zappie. i already think zappie is town, and scum voting for him does make it seem more so.
...and those are the only two. huh.
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SK's VOTES from a neutral perspective.
I see. Suppose that makes sense. Vote: Mail-mi then.
votes mail-mi because joth told him votes and wagons are good things. Could just be jumping on a townie wagon, or could be scum early bussing to distance (knowing i'm town, it's the first, but you don't know that.)
Okay, so the popular belief now is that Zappie is scum, and trying to get advice from his partner. This confuses me. The mafia communicate via QT, yes? And they may not use it in the day, yes? And usually (at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious)) the mod does the "Thread Locked" thing or whatever. Wouldn't that be enough to let Zappie know that the mod doesn't want them to communicate during the day? Also, the VT thing looks like a trick. A pretty obvious trick. What could he, as a VT, possibly want to say? Vote: Zappie
Unvote. What if he is just town and made a mistake? He's a newbie just like me, and it sounds like something I would do.
Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie
I'm curious as to why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappie.
really hedgy one on zappie. i already think zappie is town, and scum voting for him does make it seem more so.
...and those are the only two. huh.
He does give his reads on most everyone at the end (he forgets you and Joth). Whether he knew already that he was going to get lynched or not, I can't say.
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SK's VOTES from a neutral perspective.
I see. Suppose that makes sense. Vote: Mail-mi then.
votes mail-mi because joth told him votes and wagons are good things. Could just be jumping on a townie wagon, or could be scum early bussing to distance (knowing i'm town, it's the first, but you don't know that.)
Okay, so the popular belief now is that Zappie is scum, and trying to get advice from his partner. This confuses me. The mafia communicate via QT, yes? And they may not use it in the day, yes? And usually (at least from the other QTs I've seen from the other games I've read (Ehunt's thing was hilarious)) the mod does the "Thread Locked" thing or whatever. Wouldn't that be enough to let Zappie know that the mod doesn't want them to communicate during the day? Also, the VT thing looks like a trick. A pretty obvious trick. What could he, as a VT, possibly want to say? Vote: Zappie
Unvote. What if he is just town and made a mistake? He's a newbie just like me, and it sounds like something I would do.
Why would he make that mistake though? I can't imagine anything he would want to say to any of us. The only scenario that wanting to PM someone would be actually viable in is if you're scum. I'm just not seeing it. Vote: Zappie
I'm curious as to why Hydrad was so quick to defend Zappie.
really hedgy one on zappie. i already think zappie is town, and scum voting for him does make it seem more so.
...and those are the only two. huh.
He does give his reads on most everyone at the end (he forgets you and Joth). Whether he knew already that he was going to get lynched or not, I can't say.
also from a neutral standpoint, this makes me townier because he definitely wouldn't forget his scum partner.
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A first-time player might.
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A first-time player might.
I don't really think a first time scum player would forget their partner though
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A first-time player might.
I don't really think a first time scum player would forget their partner though
Granted, if he did, that partner was me, who was not very present on D1.
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A first-time player might.
I don't really think a first time scum player would forget their partner though
I think a first-time player is more likely to do it than a veteran player.
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A first-time player might.
I don't really think a first time scum player would forget their partner though
I think a first-time player is more likely to do it than a veteran player.
I don't think any one is likely to do it, your scum partners are who you're most aware of.
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If we analyze the wagon on SK, which is the only sure source of information we have, we get these facts:
Initial votes by TA and WW, slight defense by Joth and pacovf, Hydrad votes when prodded by TA, TA leaves his vote to vote on Hydrad, WW confirms his vote, Eevee votes for SK when prodded by pacovf, joth then pacovf then mail-mi then TA say that SK is scummy, joth puts SK at L-1, Zappie quickhammers (hilariously, he justified his vote by saying it was random).
With this, I think that the odds of either WW or Zappie being scum are somewhere around 0.5%. Hydrad looks quite good too (aside from the fact that he had to be prodded), plus the way he has been posting all this time screams town to me. Even if I survive today and tomorrow and we don't catch scum by D4, something really weird would have to happen for me to vote for any of them.
If we only look at these facts, Eevee looks reasonably good, mail-mi is null, and TA and pacovf look bad (I was pushing another lynch), but I don't limit myself to these facts, because we don't really have that many (it's only D2). I also brought up the description of the wagon because of Eevee: he has said many times that the scum narrative on this person or that other is not perfect, because they condoned the lynch without voting. I think that argument should be ignored, because everybody condoned the lynch...
Mail-mi: hardly posted at all, the little he has posted doesn't really look that good. I would say his content is null overall, but I am leaning slightly scum, because he has been lurking so much (maybe that will change now?)
TA: I've been pushing his case for so long, I hardly have any energy to keep doing it. He left the SK wagon before it got traction (right after two very scummy posts by SK), and voted for Hydrad (who had voted for him before). This looks very bad.
In the realm of circumstancial evidence, there's the fact that he avoids answering accusations. Before you get your pitchfork out, what I mean is that it's impossible to distinguish whether there is a genuine communication problem between you and I, or if you are hiding behind it. Back in D1, I say that you don't post much, that you OMGUS Hydrad, and that the timing of your case on Hydrad helps SK too much. Your original (non-hedgy) answer is that you've posted a lot. When I insist, you say that I misunderstand your meta, and for the longest time keep it at that. Finally, much later, you say that you didn't vote for SK because Zappie cut the day short, and even later you say that you didn't have opinions on everyone because it was early in D1 (which contradicts your first answer, but fine). Both answers are good, but it takes forever to get them, and by then we've basically forgotten your case (see Eevee's back and forth on you). I can see you being frustrated town (in which case I apologize again, and then once more just in case), but it's a hair too convenient for my taste.
I guess he was also very quick to react to the perceived threat of analyzing joth's NK and putting his vote back on me? Could just be self-preservation, though, I am not entirely clear if that is scummy, townie, or null. Some weird phrasings here and there and convenient misunderstandings that I pointed out as they happened, but my previous paragraph might already get me enough heat, so let's keep it this way. If I am lynched, other people can reread our interactions if they want to.
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Eevee: his position on SK wagon is reasonably good, but not good enough to free him of all suspicion, especially since he had to get prodded to put a vote down. Everything I have on him is fairly circumstancial. One thing is certain, either he is playing a very good town game, or an excellent scum game. To wit:
I don't really see the case on TA. It hinges so much on SK being scum, and isn't like slam dunk obvious to me even if that's true (which, guys, let's face it, can't be more than 50% to be true).
This is after I post my original case on TA, but before it's 100% clear SK is going to be lynched. It looks like he is defending TA, but what he is also doing is subtly reminding people that Zappie is also a valid lynch.
There's also this when it looks like everybody wants to lynch SK:
Does anyone disagree with lynching sk?
Which can be read as one last attempt at moving the lynch elsewhere without having to accept the responsibility of defending SK (as far as arguments go, I know this one isn't my strongest).
Also see next reference to my case on TA (D2):
Pacofv dying and flipping town would validate his case on TA, and make mail-mi's actions today scummier.
All of the sudden he's 100% convinced of my case (he does correct his opinion afterwards). A touch too happy to get a 2-for-1, plus extra scumminess to mail-mi because why not.
not caught up, but I really don't think scum says the stuff Pacofv has been saying.
I agree. Which makes me want to vote eevee even more since he's the biggest one to start this wagon. But I still like my mailmi vote
This argument reads "pacofv has been too obviously working the scum angle, therefore he can't be scum".
Here, WW and Hydrad haven't actually specified what exactly are the things that scum!pacovf wouldn't say, but Eevee quickly interpretates it in such a way that it can be easily dismissed (it's the jumping to conclusions that is scummy, not the fact that he is attacking me).
I think I've stated before. I don't give them town points because their read is correct. I give them town points because they aren't pushing an easy lynch.
It's still not a sensible position. Shouldn't you give me town points for pushing the lynch that you agree is logical from the evidence we have?
You are straight up saying that voting for you is the sensible thing to do, but those who play sensible are scummier than those who don't.
You are giving me scum point for rereading, finding the evidence and building a case you yourself admit has merit.
I'm not pushing an easy lynch. I'm building a very concrete and fact-based case against the most active player of the game who was universally thought of as a town read yesterday. You even said so yourself, the facts I've presented are legit and they point towards you.
My reasoning ("people not voting for me are townier") is wrong here, but the interesting thing is how casually he is giving himself townie points for pushing my case. Actually, he is asking me to give him townie points. That way, when I flip, he can say "Hey, it wasn't scummy to lynch him, even pacovf agreed!".
I think we are all in agreement about the case against you and the merits and problems it had.
I think the towniest thing for you to do here would be to try to build alternate cases. If you know the case on you is wrong, find the real scum for us so we'll know where to look after your flip!
What you seem to be doing now is trying to fight the case, which just is a losing battle after you yourself admitted how solid it is.
We have three lynches, I think you'd realize you need to be one of them if you were town, and would adjust your play accordingly. Scum obviously can't resign to that fate, as they'll just lose if they are lynched.
Well, to be totally honest, I'm very likely to keep pushing you today, unless you find something I completely missed. But I'll at the very least promise to take your words to careful consideration tomorrow. If you are town, you should see how this is a fair deal, even if it feels frustrating right now.
While he does have a good point, it's also a convenient one. He's telling me to stop fighting and accept that I am going to get lynched today.
He has also insisted many times that scum doesn't want the lynch of their partner D1 in this setup. Given that he is the one person from our list of suspects that has voted for SK, insisting this much is a tiny bit suspicious.
I know all this is very circumstancial. It's only D2, after all. But yeah, definitely have to keep an eye on him. I think he's the one person that could win this game as scum (barring some truly diabolic play by Zappie or WW).
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I am not done yet, some extra information, and one last defense of myself.
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pacovf: defends SK at first, then says he's scummy, then builds a case against TA and pushes it until the hammer. Mantains that he does so because he doesn't want to lynch a newbie D1.
That's the case against me. It's a good one. The question you have to ask yourselves what is more likely:
-pacovf is a weird guy who would rather decrease his chances of winning by going out of his way to follow rules that protect newbies in a newbie game.
-pacovf is scum, drops the case on Zappie and mentions that SK is very scummy as SK's wagon starts getting inertia, and once it's all but sure that SK is going to get lynched, builds a crazy case against TA that relies heavily on SK being scum.
Pick your poison.
I didn't say who I would rather lynch. Right now, I am 90% sure that scum is in Eevee/TA, 8% that it's mail-mi, and 2% that someone has fooled us really well. I am leaning sliiiiightly on Eevee, but I don't want to lynch him today. I would much rather lynch mail-mi. If Eevee is town, he is a strong asset. And since we've still got all our PRs, there is the possibility that we don't have to find out whether Eevee is town or not, because our investigative role will tell us.
If I do get lynched today, I would rather you lynch mail-mi tomorrow (barring a positive investigative result). I think the odds of town finding out who is scum from TA/Eevee, with the amount of content associated to each other, is higher than the odds of that happening with one of them and mail-mi ("we can lynch the guy that looks scummy, or we can lynch the guy that hasn't said a word"). Sorry if this feels unfair, mail-mi :-\
With that said, Vote: mail-mi (I think it's the second vote).
If anyone was interested, the mysterious argument I was talking about earlier would have made Eevee look scummier, but I didn't receive the answers I was expecting. I was looking for something along the lines of "lost/confused" (especially his first post), or, barring that, "transparent/obvious" (in a sense, TA's answer is this one).
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People are going to hate me because I write too much. :P
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One last thing: if you are following this, go write in the speccy who would you lynch right now!
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People are going to hate me because I write too much. :P
I love it.
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Cool. I am going to sleep, please don't lynch me while I am out.
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I don't think to much writing is ever a bad thing in this game. more information is always a good thing.
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I think my case on pacofv is far stronger than his on TA. But it's hard to not draw towny conclusions from pacofv's relentless effort.
Interested to see what others think of these long, informational posts.
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I think my case on pacofv is far stronger than his on TA. But it's hard to not draw towny conclusions from pacofv's relentless effort.
Interested to see what others think of these long, informational posts.
I think scum doesn't really do that.
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If I do get lynched today, I would rather you lynch mail-mi tomorrow (barring a positive investigative result). I think the odds of town finding out who is scum from TA/Eevee, with the amount of content associated to each other, is higher than the odds of that happening with one of them and mail-mi ("we can lynch the guy that looks scummy, or we can lynch the guy that hasn't said a word"). Sorry if this feels unfair, mail-mi :-\
yeah I've already said all over the place i've been busy and i'm doing stuff when i can (like today).
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If I do get lynched today, I would rather you lynch mail-mi tomorrow (barring a positive investigative result). I think the odds of town finding out who is scum from TA/Eevee, with the amount of content associated to each other, is higher than the odds of that happening with one of them and mail-mi ("we can lynch the guy that looks scummy, or we can lynch the guy that hasn't said a word"). Sorry if this feels unfair, mail-mi :-\
yeah I've already said all over the place i've been busy and i'm doing stuff when i can (like today).
I know. You have posted a lot this last few hours. Still, Eevee and TA have far more content associated with them, and I cannot know whether you will still be very busy the next few days.
I've said everything I had to say, and put a vote down. If people think I am the most likely scum, that is not going to change anymore, so just vote for me. Otherwise, I've given reasons to vote for someone else.
Oh, hum, Zappie, don't quickhammer again, please. If you intend to put the last vote on someone (here you need 4 votes), give them ample warning beforehand.
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vote: TA
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I don't want to lynch TA anymore. I am happy to die today if town lynches mail-mi and Eevee in whichever order strikes their fancy. Even with extreme luck, I don't see how scum can win this.
Also, why is everybody so silent? It's time to vote!
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Man, now this is confusing for me.
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I would prefer mail-mi - TA - pacofv, if I had my pick. Pacofv has been winning way more town points than TA or mail-mi today.
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I don't want to lynch TA anymore. I am happy to die today if town lynches mail-mi and Eevee in whichever order strikes their fancy. Even with extreme luck, I don't see how scum can win this.
Also, why is everybody so silent? It's time to vote!
I'm happy with my vote. I think I wanna lynch you, sorry if you do end up being town.
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Sure, I didn't expect you to change your vote. I expect Zappie to do so, one way or another.
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Actually, it's not strictly necessary, but it's going to take forever for someone to get lynched if he keeps his vote on you.
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I don't want to lynch TA anymore. I am happy to die today if town lynches mail-mi and Eevee in whichever order strikes their fancy. Even with extreme luck, I don't see how scum can win this.
Also, why is everybody so silent? It's time to vote!
Yes the mail-mi train is growing! He still feels the scummiest out of all the people for me right now. Although if I'm wrong I think it has to be between eevee/pacovf
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Vote count?
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Eevee
seems like omgus
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So the case against me is not posting enough, right? because I'm not seeing anything else anyone is pointing out (and if there is something else please say so so i can defend myself). that's pretty lame after we have a scum lynch day 1.
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So the case against me is not posting enough, right? because I'm not seeing anything else anyone is pointing out (and if there is something else please say so so i can defend myself). that's pretty lame after we have a scum lynch day 1.
You also kinda defended SK day 1. My break is almost done so I don't know if i can find the quotes but you had like 4 posts day 1 and I think 2 of them slightly defended SK
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The case on you is actually process of elimination (PoE, for future reference).
pacovf is fighting tooth and nail, which shouldn't feel this towny but it does, and people are happy with TA is producing today for reasons I don't fully comprehend.
My brain says I can't let the obviously scummiest player, pacovf, not get lynched. My gut says both mailmi and TA are more likely to be scum, in that order.
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So the case against me is not posting enough, right? because I'm not seeing anything else anyone is pointing out (and if there is something else please say so so i can defend myself). that's pretty lame after we have a scum lynch day 1.
You also kinda defended SK day 1. My break is almost done so I don't know if i can find the quotes but you had like 4 posts day 1 and I think 2 of them slightly defended SK
i was never against the sk lynch. lemme see...
here it is.
I could see joth being scum, more easily than say you or TA. Joth is playing the quintessential good scum day 1 game, the type that all that ensures he won't get lynched. That doesn't make him scum of course (it's a perfectly valid town approach as well), but it's something to keep in mind.
I'm interested in lynching from SK/Zappy/Hydrad. Mail-mi has to be in the pool too, but I'm unsure how to tackle mailmi's total lack of presence. Mailmi, do you have any reads?
School just started and so it's been kinda busy so I have less reads than I usually do, but, just off the top of my head...
...I could go for SK, though if there was another, better case that's be great.
...Joth seems like himself, towny read on him and pacovf.
mostly because the SK case seemed to me (at that time) that he was lurking and had one scummy post. and then i couldn't get on and post substance until his lynch happened.
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The case on you is actually process of elimination (PoE, for future reference).
pacovf is fighting tooth and nail, which shouldn't feel this towny but it does, and people are happy with TA is producing today for reasons I don't fully comprehend.
My brain says I can't let the obviously scummiest player, pacovf, not get lynched. My gut says both mailmi and TA are more likely to be scum, in that order.
your brain speaks the sense.
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My brain also likes the narrative for TA. Lines up the best with joth dying. What do you think of that? What do you think of me?
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My brain also likes the narrative for TA. Lines up the best with joth dying. What do you think of that? What do you think of me?
i think you've been pretty towny, i would hesitate putting my vote on you even if you were the only lynch.
i'll read ta when i'm done with some homework to see what i think.
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Cool, I'm interested. TA seems the biggest enigma for me as far as how he has actually played goes.
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i reread TA and he really doesn't come off scummy to me. he was on SK in the beginning and never removed his scum read. he did go off and on to hydrad, but never really stopped pushing the sk lynch.
lynch preference: pacovf>>>>>>>>>>>ta>>eevee
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Vote Count 2.5
mail-mi (2): Hydrad, pacovf
pacovf (2): mail-mi, Twistedarcher
Twistedarcher (1): Zappie
Not Voting (2): Witherweaver, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
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Man, seeing who are the votes on pacovf right now sort of cements it for me; I just don't think he is likely enough to be scum anymore. Man, if you are fooling me here, it's one of the most masterful single day performances I've ever seen. Please don't let that be true.
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Vote: TA
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Man, seeing who are the votes on pacovf right now sort of cements it for me; I just don't think he is likely enough to be scum anymore. Man, if you are fooling me here, it's one of the most masterful single day performances I've ever seen. Please don't let that be true.
I just think you're wrong here.
I am semi V/LA this week, don't lynch me without giving a chance to claim.
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Man, seeing who are the votes on pacovf right now sort of cements it for me; I just don't think he is likely enough to be scum anymore. Man, if you are fooling me here, it's one of the most masterful single day performances I've ever seen. Please don't let that be true.
I just think you're wrong here.
I am semi V/LA this week, don't lynch me without giving a chance to claim.
Does wrong mean town that is mistaken about pacovf?
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Man, seeing who are the votes on pacovf right now sort of cements it for me; I just don't think he is likely enough to be scum anymore. Man, if you are fooling me here, it's one of the most masterful single day performances I've ever seen. Please don't let that be true.
I just think you're wrong here.
I am semi V/LA this week, don't lynch me without giving a chance to claim.
Does wrong mean town that is mistaken about pacovf?
yes
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Man, seeing who are the votes on pacovf right now sort of cements it for me; I just don't think he is likely enough to be scum anymore. Man, if you are fooling me here, it's one of the most masterful single day performances I've ever seen. Please don't let that be true.
I just think you're wrong here.
I am semi V/LA this week, don't lynch me without giving a chance to claim.
Does wrong mean town that is mistaken about pacovf?
I believe so,yes
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You giving the same answer is interesting. Everything you say feels interesting!
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You giving the same answer is interesting. Everything you say feels interesting!
Interesting bad it seems
I don't see why Pacovf is getting the town cred for posting a lot when it's clear from his playstyle that he'd be posting a lot regardless of alignment -- playstyle is definitely a bigger indicator of postcount than alignment is, IMO.
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I agree, naturally. It's not the sheer volume. He seems more sincere than you or mailmi. More interested in actually finding scum, helping town win the game.
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Honestly longer the day goes, the more pacovf presents himself the hardworking townie, and more you present yourself as slightly annoyed scum. Plus, the joth kill.
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You seem frustrated at getting suspicion. He seems to care that town wins, whether he is lynched or not.
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I agree, naturally. It's not the sheer volume. He seems more sincere than you or mailmi. More interested in actually finding scum, helping town win the game.
I'm sure we'll get there at some point, I am not super concerned with getting Pacovf lynched today since there's no way he'd make it through D4. Obviously it's what I want but I just honestly don't have the desire to go back and forth when I feel like everything is out there and we're just extending the day and cluttering the thread at this point. And I know it's probably coming off as insincere (and pacovf, directed at you, no hard feelings, I'll echo your earlier sentiments that nothing is personal) but we're not even close to LYLO and we'll get there, today or later on.
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Nope, on the contrary I have 0 concern about getting votes since I know I'm not going to get lynched (unless I get quickhammered with no chance to claim). I'd like to get it over with and get pacovf lynched, and I am pretty sure we'll get there eventually, whether it's now or at the end of the day or D3 or D4 doesn't matter all that much
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You giving the same answer is interesting. Everything you say feels interesting!
Interesting bad it seems
I don't see why Pacovf is getting the town cred for posting a lot when it's clear from his playstyle that he'd be posting a lot regardless of alignment -- playstyle is definitely a bigger indicator of postcount than alignment is, IMO.
Well, it's my first game, so you don't really know my playstyle, do you?
Vote: TA
Didn't you just say that you would rather lynch mail-mi than TA?
(and pacovf, directed at you, no hard feelings, I'll echo your earlier sentiments that nothing is personal)
Oh hey don't worry!
Nope, on the contrary I have 0 concern about getting votes since I know I'm not going to get lynched (unless I get quickhammered with no chance to claim).
Why do you go and say something like this? It's negative utility for town... I still don't want to lynch you, but please, stop working on this angle.
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Nope, on the contrary I have 0 concern about getting votes since I know I'm not going to get lynched (unless I get quickhammered with no chance to claim).
Why do you go and say something like this? It's negative utility for town... I still don't want to lynch you, but please, stop working on this angle.
How can you talk about negative utility when you already admitted not wanting to lynch your top scum read D1? I can see where this day is headed, I'd rather not wait until the last 24 hours of deadline to get voted up to L-1 and then hope we have the votes to go somewhere else, I'll make sure that we have time to actually get a viable lynch through.
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I don't understand, we've got nearly a week until the deadline, I think we will reach L-1 and intent to hammer much earlier than that. There won't be any rush.
How can you talk about negative utility when you already admitted not wanting to lynch your top scum read D1?
I don't know what this means. I would rather I get lynched than you. Based on what I know right now, I think that either me or mail-mi reaching D4 alive is bad for town (unless presence of investigative results in D3).
Witherweaver, we need you. Say something. Maybe even put a vote down.
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I will say my scum read on eevee is slightly huger now. I felt like a few pages ago he wasn't really thinking of eevee as a top lynch candidate. Then he suddenly puts mailmi higher then TA and right after that he votes TA. It looks kinda weird to me. I still like mailmi more but eevee has come closer to being scum for me.
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Is that something that really benefits me if I'm scum? I'm just posting my honest thoughts, as they occur in my head. I saw the the vote count and thought about it more, and decided I liked TA better than mailmi.
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TA being a power role role could explain why his attitude today feels odd to me (if he feels his claim will eventually protect him from the lynch anyway).
Honestly, I don't even think it's all that bad if it comes to claim for him. We have so many very towny looking people, forcing scum to kill out of the suspect pool wouldn't be the end of the world.
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Personally I feel like we shouldn't claim today still. But I think tomorrow our PR's should claim as having 2 nights to do something is much better then just 1. I guess someone could claim today if they are about to be lynched but I still really don't want to lynch TA today
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That seems better.
vote: mailmi
If we don't win, have TA claim tomorrow, and go from there. We can still afford to lynch both claimants tomorrow if there are competing claims. If they kill TA, well, we've shrunk our lynch pool by one.
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This is L-1. Nobody vote mailmi before everyone has seen that and mailmi has had a chance to claim.
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This is L-1. Nobody vote mailmi before everyone has seen that and mailmi has had a chance to claim.
looks at zappie...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo
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I disagree and think that pacovf is scum, but hey we will get there eventually.
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I disagree and think that pacovf is scum, but hey we will get there eventually.
Duly noted.
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Vote Count 2.6
mail-mi (3): Hydrad, pacovf, Eevee (L-1)
pacovf (2): mail-mi, Twistedarcher
Twistedarcher (1): Zappie
Not Voting (1): Witherweaver
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
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Mail-mi want to claim?
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Mail-mi want to claim?
What are your thoughts on lynching mail-mi? I think the other option should be pacovf, given TA's soft claim.
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Mail-mi want to claim?
What are your thoughts on lynching mail-mi? I think the other option should be pacovf, given TA's soft claim.
I haven't moved towards a scum read on Pacovf. Plus, should TA just claim? He's basically admitted he had a PR; is there an advantage to keeping which one secret?
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Well, I guess for the WIFOM on whether or not he's a doctor.
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Well, I guess for the WIFOM on whether or not he's a doctor.
This. I don't want TA to claim. He might also be the 1-shot bulletproof townie.
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I think TA is plenty capable of determining whether he should claim or not.
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I'm just a VT.
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I'm inclined to believe you, but honestly I don't think I would be able to tell the difference between scum!mail-mi and town!mail-mi, plus I like your lynch more than I like TA's (if anything because he soft-claimed PR), and Eevee is not getting lynched today. So I am keeping my vote on you.
Anyone want to move their vote after mail-mi's claim?
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I mean, this is the scummy claim. Scum can't claim a power role, we have time to lynch all competing claims.
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I'm kind of thinking Mail-Mi is the best option.
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Neither me nor mail-mi are living through D4. The only thing that could save him now, if he is scum, is claiming doctor/1-shot bulletproof and hope we are in the setup with an extra VT. I don't think claiming VT is particularly scummy in his case.
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If mail-mi were scum:
-If he is not a mafia roleblocker, he would have a 25% chance of his claim being safe.
-If he is the roleblocker, there are no safe claims.
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Neither me nor mail-mi are living through D4. The only thing that could save him now, if he is scum, is claiming doctor/1-shot bulletproof and hope we are in the setup with an extra VT. I don't think claiming VT is particularly scummy in his case.
I don't like this line of thinking. Stuff can always happen. Scum is in a dire situation now, no matter what. They have to play for long shots.
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Which I guess could also be an argument towards mail-mi trying a different claim here, but I'm not so sure he is the type of guy to go for that. Isn't known for being the most active setup-theorist, and SK was new so whoever the scum is, he hasn't gotten instructions from his partner as far as claims go.
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Neither me nor mail-mi are living through D4. The only thing that could save him now, if he is scum, is claiming doctor/1-shot bulletproof and hope we are in the setup with an extra VT. I don't think claiming VT is particularly scummy in his case.
I don't like this line of thinking. Stuff can always happen. Scum is in a dire situation now, no matter what. They have to play for long shots.
I am not exactly sure what you think my position is, but I still want to lynch mail-mi. My (completely theoretical) point was that the only way mail-mi is winning this game as scum is with a fakeclaim (either I am lynched today or he is, the other one is lynched tomorrow unless our investigator says otherwise or something really funky happens tonight). 25% to win is better than 0%. Of course, I haven't played with him before, so I don't know what the odds are of him figuring that out.
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Right. I'm saying that it's not 100% he perceives you two in either order are the next two lynches (or that it's true), and even if he does, he might not figure out the chance of a fake claim.
So, this new information, the claim, doesn't make me want to not lynch mail-mi.
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Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Vote: Mail-mi
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And now we play the waiting game.
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mailmi, are you here? Tell us!
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So was that the hammer? I'm assuming yes.
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Well anyways I guess for what it's worth I'll post that I think TA is town. And it's probably between eevee and pacovf now if we are wrong here. Although I don't want to give ww a complete free pass as I don't think he's IC status as much as zappie who is super close to IC in my opinion
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I agree that WW isn't nearly as much of an IC as Zappie. Been meaning to post that actually.
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Hopefully it won't matter because we just won!
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Thread is locked
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Final Vote Count
mail-mi (4): Hydrad, pacovf, Eevee, Witherweaver
pacovf (2): mail-mi, Twistedarcher
Twistedarcher (1): Zappie
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on September 2nd at 3:00 PM.
Mail-mi has been lynched. He was Mafia Roleblocker. Town wins flawlessly
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Oh, hey, sorry Pavocf! I was really thrown off by your not wanting to lynch a newbie D1 -- it made no sense to me, and just seemed like a cover for not lynching SK.
I was the doctor, and I'm reasonably sure Hydrad was the Cop who investigated me N1. I softclaimed early because I didn't want him to claim.
Good job everyone!
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Yay my mailmi train payed off! That was a fun game.
Also I was a Town Cop and had targeted TA last night so thats why i was weirdly saying he was town. I'm hoping I made it so that if died tonight you would understand that I targeted TA and hes town but not enough that scum thinks i'm a cop? Did I do that right?
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Dang maybe I made it to obvious that I was the cop then...
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Whiiiiii!
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I knew you were the cop D1, and I knew you targeted me D2 :P No idea if scum caught on, though. I guess not since you weren't killed N1.
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One quick newbie question as I'm kinda curious. If you were a doctor would you ever claim that you were a doctor? It would save you from a lynch but then you are dead anyways during the night.
This post gave me a huge cop read on you, Hydrad, since for cop, the only other possible town PR is doctor. Since you were specifically asking about the doctor it was a bigger giveaway in my mind.
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I knew you were the cop D1, and I knew you targeted me D2 :P No idea if scum caught on, though. I guess not since you weren't killed N1.
wait you knew I was cop D1? how did you find that out?
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One quick newbie question as I'm kinda curious. If you were a doctor would you ever claim that you were a doctor? It would save you from a lynch but then you are dead anyways during the night.
This post gave me a huge cop read on you, Hydrad, since for cop, the only other possible town PR is doctor. Since you were specifically asking about the doctor it was a bigger giveaway in my mind.
ah i see
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I think town played really really well in this one.
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I think town played really really well in this one.
Ya. and if i didn't die tonight I think we had a really high chance of finding scum anyways. as if lets say zappie died and I confirmed eevee as town. then all that would be left is WW and pacovf if mailmi wasn't scum. The only way it wouldn't be 100% is if TA died or if eevee died.
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great work guys!
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Hammer for the win!
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Was there a speccy? Scum QT?
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Was there a speccy? Scum QT?
ah true I would like to see those if possible. although they are both probably really short. I'm curious on why mailmi killed joth also
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speccy: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/wLgduTLkeiJUT
there's not a huge amount of discussion there, particularly day 2. I am also curious why I was shot.
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Was there a speccy? Scum QT?
ah true I would like to see those if possible. although they are both probably really short. I'm curious on why mailmi killed joth also
I'm guessing to try to implicate TA. That was one of my decisions on voting Mail-Mi; I thought he was more likely to make that choice than others. I could be wrong though.
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From Volt:
WW is mafia. I'm not making a joke here, I really think that.
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I'm rusty. :P
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I alone had twice as many posts as the entire scum team. pacofv has thrice as many.
The lesson is, active town is a winning town!
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I alone had twice as many posts as the entire scum team. pacofv has thrice as many.
The lesson is, active town is a winning town!
It's going to take me forever to start getting pacovf's name right every time.
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One thing I would say to Pacofv: The only thing that made me kind of consider that you might be scum is your Day 2 claim of your Day 1 certainty of SK being scum. I think that was an exaggeration, because I don't think you had just cause to be certain. I was fairly confident about SK, a few others were, most were on the fence. Even a lot in the speccy thought it was a mislynch. It made you look scummy here because it's almost like you're overcompensating for suspecting your partner, and also it looked like you were trying to fully justify you trying to lynch TA over SK.
But the rest of your play seemed really unlikely to come from scum.
I think my remaining lynch choices would have been Mail-Mi > Eevee > TA > Pacofv. I typed up my Mail-Mi vote this morning and did a quick reread of most of Day 2 before posting it. It left me with a more town feeling on TA, and I didn't exactly think Eevee looked scummier, but TA moved more townie than him. If Mail-Mi was a mislynch it would have been a tossup between TA/Eevee, and I probably would have put some more consideration to Pacofv and Hydrad.
I wasn't that sure Mail-Mi would be scum, but I basically knew he was going to get lynched eventually anyway, so it seemed the best play to do it now. A final day of, say, Mail-Mi, TA, Pacofv would be a big challenge I think.
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It's going to take me forever to start getting pacovf's name right every time.
Yes please, I've been meaning to tell you that!
Also, I was convinced Eevee was scum, but yeah I definitely wanted to get mail-mi first just in case. And I obviously caught on Hydrad as the cop (see my sudden change of opinion on TA). That "should I claim doctor" was suspicious, but this:
I will say for me my strongest townread is TA with zappie right behind
then WW is townish for me while pacovf is null for me
eevee seems scummy and mailmi is who I want to lynch.
Thats where I stand on this and I don't think there is much you guys can say that will make me want to lynch TA. His posts feel really towny to me. I'm terrible at explaining why I think people are towny so I'm sorry for that but I really think we should try other people.
was crazy obvious.
Oh, hey, sorry Pavocf! I was really thrown off by your not wanting to lynch a newbie D1 -- it made no sense to me, and just seemed like a cover for not lynching SK.
Yeah, halfway through D1, I realized that it was going to look bad for me. I'm surprised by how 100% sure you were that I was scum, though!
PPE 1
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I didn't catch on on Hydrad being cop, or even having a PR. I think when I read his Doctor statement I considered it being a Doctor slip but thought he wouldn't do that because obvious. I didn't think about it indicating a different PR>
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I guess i didn't give you the same activity town points everyone else did -- knowing your posting style, I'm sure you'd be just as active, if not more so, as scum!
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WW would you of figured out that TA was who I investigated if I died during the night and flipped cop? I was really struggling for how to get the info out without scum knowing. looks like I underestimated to many of you.
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WW would you of figured out that TA was who I investigated if I died during the night and flipped cop? I was really struggling for how to get the info out without scum knowing. looks like I underestimated to many of you.
I think you dropped enough hints, yes.. you flipping Cop coupled with being very certain on TA is sufficient.
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I didn't catch it real-time, but I truly suck at catching things like that. I relatively certain any combination of players would have figured it out tomorrow if you got killed, though. You did well.
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If anything, there were too many hints.
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I guess i didn't give you the same activity town points everyone else did -- knowing your posting style, I'm sure you'd be just as active, if not more so, as scum!
While I might still be active in future games (probably less so, I'd say 1/3 of my questions were about how games are played, rather than this game itself), there is no way in Hell I am spending half as much time on them as I did on this one. The reread I did after Eevee told me I was all but lynched took me forever.
One thing I would say to Pacofv: The only thing that made me kind of consider that you might be scum is your Day 2 claim of your Day 1 certainty of SK being scum.
I don't know, I might have been too bold with that statement. Obviously I wasn't 100% certain, but still. After people called me out on my level of certainty, I realized why that would look bad, but I had said so already. I will definitely be more careful in the future.
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I'm glad you got to be alive when we ended this. Very deserved after all that effort!
It wasn't wasted either. You got me too se the light!
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Haha, it made me suspect you though. I kinda wish it hadn't been mail-mi, we were all chasing wild geese because we were only analyzing the posts of town.
Shame that there was basically no analysis on the speccy about D2, I would have liked to know what they thinked from the outside.
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Mafia QT http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/B9j6bt8iJPg (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/B9j6bt8iJPg)
Mod QT http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/24PzLnYPNgfTt (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/24PzLnYPNgfTt)
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I have to say, I had the feeling that SK hadn't been coached at all, because of his first post here ("something existential"), which would point to Eevee (ID wasn't here when the game started).
I guess I was only halfway wrong.
Huge thanks to the mods by the way! This was fun.
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Haha, it made me suspect you though. I kinda wish it hadn't been mail-mi, we were all chasing wild geese because we were only analyzing the posts of town.
Shame that there was basically no analysis on the speccy about D2, I would have liked to know what they thinked from the outside.
Hey, you did all my analysis for me. Like I said: I still plan on sheeping pacovf D2 with my reads.
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("I agree that WW isn't nearly as much of an IC as Zappie." - IC?)
yeeh i won my first game! flawlessly!
I still want to go back a bit where someone said that VT slips are bad - is that so? I mean if the people know others are VT there is a higher chance of a good lynch, even though PR can get caught easier too.
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It's bad, because it tells scum who the power roles are and helps them kill them off.
This game we figured it out without any special role information, but they are insanely strong and important.
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("I agree that WW isn't nearly as much of an IC as Zappie." - IC?)
IC means Innocent Child. It is a PR where the mod confirms someone as town to everyone.
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Reading the QT's is so fun.
I am of course pretty noob but I did slip on purpose, thinking that it would be good for town and would give me personal town points. Also i did like the idea of creating a bit 'real content' on day one. And any comments about it I posted have a real truth in it.
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This game we figured it out without any special role information,
Don't know. Would you have moved your vote away from me if I hadn't suddenly said that I didn't want to lynch TA, and that I was happy dying? Because that wouldn't have happened without Hydrad.
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This game we figured it out without any special role information,
Don't know. Would you have moved your vote away from me if I hadn't suddenly said that I didn't want to lynch TA, and that I was happy dying? Because that wouldn't have happened without Hydrad.
Hard to say, though maybe (words, they are wind).
Power roles certainly played an unusually small role in this game.
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Reading the QT's is so fun.
I am of course pretty noob but I did slip on purpose, thinking that it would be good for town and would give me personal town points. Also i did like the idea of creating a bit 'real content' on day one. And any comments about it I posted have a real truth in it.
Neat idea. Dangerous game though. Claiming VT seems harmless, but it's a big help for scum -- it shrinks the pool out of which they can fish for power roles.
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The other problem with claiming VT is that mafia has no incentive to lynch you. Which means that mafia can claim VT, and then they've got an easy excuse to explain why they aren't getting Night Killed.
I would have a question: how much are you supposed to defend yourself from accusations? I know I've been accused of being overly defensive, but someone else (don't remember who right now) got some slack because he wasn't defending himself at all. What is town supposed to do?
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I think defending yourself is great. One of the big aspects of good town play is convincing others you are town.
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I feel like you weren't saying that as you were pushing your case on me.
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yeah, but it is still the best thing to do. And look what happened. You convinced enough people that you were town and got around to a mail-mi lynch. And won the game.
Either way, if you are able to defend yourself well, it forces people to attack you with equal vigor, which might sometimes catch scum. Or not.
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The other problem with claiming VT is that mafia has no incentive to lynch you. Which means that mafia can claim VT, and then they've got an easy excuse to explain why they aren't getting Night Killed.
I would have a question: how much are you supposed to defend yourself from accusations? I know I've been accused of being overly defensive, but someone else (don't remember who right now) got some slack because he wasn't defending himself at all. What is town supposed to do?
There are lots of things in mafia that seem like can't win scenarios, and that's not an accident. I think the thing to do is to patiently defend yourself from all real attacks. The scumtell is when the defense is disproportionately large. No defense is also scummy, because it starts to look like a "maybe if I ignore it it will go away"
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pacovf for MVP here FOR SURE.
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But it should at least keep the game moving, which is more enjoyable for everyone.
I know I would much rather go down guns blazing then timidly not arguing for myself
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Ok, thanks for the answers!
pacovf for MVP here FOR SURE.
Haha, if I hadn't gone out of my way to not lynch newbies D1, D2 would have been so much easier on town ;D
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Ok, thanks for the answers!
pacovf for MVP here FOR SURE.
Haha, if I hadn't gone out of my way to not lynch newbies D1, D2 would have been so much easier on town ;D
Yeah, though on my end I don't really think you would have tried that as scum, unless you were really desperate. I can see TA's argument that you would have been desperate in this situation, but still I think a better play would have been to just bus your partner and act super townie.
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This game we figured it out without any special role information,
Don't know. Would you have moved your vote away from me if I hadn't suddenly said that I didn't want to lynch TA, and that I was happy dying? Because that wouldn't have happened without Hydrad.
Hard to say, though maybe (words, they are wind).
Power roles certainly played an unusually small role in this game.
Well, that is expected with just 1 night
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I'm finally getting around to this. First, a bit of commentary: as soon as SK was getting heat, I could tell that the mafia were going down. I couldn't see too much to implicate people other than mail-mi (though I was wrong about that, of course). About halfway through D2 I could see nobody was agreeing on some of the major suspects, and I realized they would probably all just say that they were okay with mail-mi and then lynch him.
...and look what happened.
Pacovf for MVP, for extremely pro-town play (mostly), and stopping his lynch on D2.
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That's the second flawless town win in a row with Matrix6. Hmmm...
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I think newbie games favor town. Scum is hard to play, especially at first.
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yeah, with my business and not being able to be around for the sk lynch, i knew i was doomed.
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I had no idea this game ended.
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I had no idea this game ended.
Probably because I wasn't around for the game end and the title wasn't changed.