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[pingpongsam]

Note I have explicitly refrained from implicating walrus in any way. To me, he's off the lynch table for today, there is no conclusion I can draw. I haven't ever even considered him a lynch proposition today because I knew that when Archetype flipped scum I was the easy scum target for today once the initial drama over walrus settled. My lynch propositions were going to be within the scope of who leveraged that easy lynch. I think you will find me quite consistent in this regard.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

The fact that pps is claiming he wouldn't die from my vig so assertively makes me kind of suspicious.

My plausibility is getting stretched pretty thin. Regeneration for the doctor, that I can believe, and in fact I kind of expected based on my own regeneration. A personal shield for the doctor, eh, well that's a pretty tough nut to crack, but not impossible. But a regenerating personal shield for a regenerating doctor? That's pushing it for me.

It might be more likely that he is a powerful scum or 3rd party role with regeneration, or some other means of staying alive, and now is tacking things on to his claim as convenient. He did say the time travel thing was the last thing he had to reveal, and now he's got this up his sleeve too. I mean I do think it is pretty likely that some scummy supervillain also has regeneration; that only seems fair, and also makes ash's role more interesting.

So this makes me support the pps lynch more. I did shoot him after all, that's usually pretty strong support for killing someone!

[pingpongsam]

The fact that pps is claiming he wouldn't die from my vig so assertively makes me kind of suspicious.

My plausibility is getting stretched pretty thin. Regeneration for the doctor, that I can believe, and in fact I kind of expected based on my own regeneration. A personal shield for the doctor, eh, well that's a pretty tough nut to crack, but not impossible. But a regenerating personal shield for a regenerating doctor? That's pushing it for me.

It might be more likely that he is a powerful scum or 3rd party role with regeneration, or some other means of staying alive, and now is tacking things on to his claim as convenient. He did say the time travel thing was the last thing he had to reveal, and now he's got this up his sleeve too. I mean I do think it is pretty likely that some scummy supervillain also has regeneration; that only seems fair, and also makes ash's role more interesting.

So this makes me support the pps lynch more. I did shoot him after all, that's usually pretty strong support for killing someone!

Fair assessment but I would say I didn't wait to reveal information. I felt it was evident, especially considering how many people seem to have similar ability. Also, I can't say for certain it protects me but it sure reads like it should. I waited to emphasize the information because it became pertinent when town was considering letting your vig get them information. If Town really wants information from my flip it probably needs to come in the form of a lynch. Thus it was appropriate to emphasize that information at that point.

The notion that a town claim should be 100% with zero reservations to protect Town is absurd.

Finally, I think it is faulty assumption that my regenerating protection applies to a role that already has regen. I was already wary of the assumption I protected EFHW. I never promoted the idea. I never supported the idea. I thought it best to let the idea run free on it's opwn because it seemed pro-town if EFHW was not the beneficiary. Her revealing that she had regen herself pretty much killed the theory I never started or promoted as far as I was concerned.

[pingpongsam]

I have a meeting I have to attend very shortly. I'll be back in roughly 2 hours.

[nkirbit]

I will reveal that I know in a most interesting proxy way that a kill attempt failed on a specific Town PR last night. I'd like to see Jo's claim before I reveal anything further. If, as I beleive, Jo was responsible for the attempt then he needs to be lynched to protect the identity of the Town PR.

This post makes it look like PPS knew for certain that the doctor is not referring to Sudgy.  If it was.. why do we care about Sudgy's identity?  Everyone already knows it, he turned up dead!

Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.

What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:

sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.

caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.

Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.

In his very next post, he claims, and appears to think that Sudgy is the doctor.  Or at least is unsure about it.

Nothing about his claim would have outed "The Doctor" (assuming that it is neither EFHW nor Sudgy) without stepping forward.

[nkirbit]

Without the doctor stepping forward, I mean.  PPS claims to be unsure who 'the doctor' really is.

And man, "the doctor", if PPS is telling the truth, just has to be EFHW, right?  I mean, how many doctors are there?

Leaning towards PPS lying at this point.

[nkirbit]

It's "one-shot" for the night. The role description doesn't actually use the terminology "one-shot". There is a short description that states I protect the doctor from the first kill attempt against him each night. The actual power is called "Regenerating Protector".

Certainly fishy.. accidentally putting "one-shot" into your role.  I guess this is something that it's possible for town to do.. but looking at the role he's describing and connecting it with "one-shot" in his mind is certainly odd.  You wouldn't describe a cop as "one-shot every night".. and it's certainly odd for PPS to describe his role in that way.

Nice catch, I hadn't picked up on that before. My description makes it clear the power is enabled which I didn't quite get until ashersky claimed.

Well, I do think this is scummy. Very, very, very, very scummy.  You knew you were enabled, but didn't at all pause when Ash claimed enabler initially?  Despite apparently collecting your thoughts since day one?  Really?

Man, this reaction sounds like scum who fake-claimed enabled because he knew there was an enabler in the game much much more than an enabled role who knew they were enabled yet didn't at all blink when Ashersky claimed initially.

[nkirbit]

Definitely of the view now that PPS is scum.  Faust brought up a lot of the same points as I did, and I agree with most of his, plus what I've said in the past view votes.

We should lynch PPS regardless of Walrus's outgoing vig.  First of all, we cannot be 100% sure that Walrus is not lying.  I don't think he is, but it's not out of the question.

Secondly, it's quite possible that Scum have regenerating powers, or time traveling roleblockers, or something else to stop a kill they know about.  I would be surprised if they didn't.

I think that the PPS lynch is by far the best option here.  There's too much that just isn't adding up.

Vote: Pingpongsam

[pingpongsam]

Nice catch, I hadn't picked up on that before. My description makes it clear the power is enabled which I didn't quite get until ashersky claimed.

Well, I do think this is scummy. Very, very, very, very scummy.  You knew you were enabled, but didn't at all pause when Ash claimed enabler initially?  Despite apparently collecting your thoughts since day one?  Really?

Man, this reaction sounds like scum who fake-claimed enabled because he knew there was an enabler in the game much much more than an enabled role who knew they were enabled yet didn't at all blink when Ashersky claimed initially.

Not following this thing at all. All I was saying here was on D1 when ashersky claimed enabler was the moment I understood the bit in my role description about being enabled. Up until that point I just rolled right past it. When he claimed then I understood that my ability relied on an enabler, be it him or some else. It was simply a moment of clarity about the concept of enabling which was new to me.

Can you clarify to me what exactly is scummy about that? I'm not arguing the point, I'm saying I genuinely am not grasping what about it is scummy.

[yuma]

I am sick, again--this has been like the month where all illness caught up to me. I hadn't been sick all year and now three times in a month! Anyone want to briefly recap in short and simple terms what in the world is going on. I have kinda followed via e-mail notifications and really the only thing I got out of it was 1. confusion and 2. something that nkirbit said:

I'll go over this in more detail tonight.  I'm just skimming at the moment, and while I see why PPS has pressure on him (and deservedly so), I'm not entirely sure that his actions fit a scum narrative.  Maybe they will do so upon further re-reading.

I'm not just sure that it makes sense for scum to go about his claiming the way he did.. I want more time to re-read him carefully and figure out if it does or not.

From everything that I have seen is that for PPS there needs to be a reason for him to 1. claim and 2. claim what he has (which is really what I need help understanding with my foggy brain state). If we can't get beyond that then we need to remember that this is a RMM game where not everything is as it seems.

I'll respond to some more posts specifically...

[yuma]

I have not pushed Walrus. I have not pushed you since the start of the Day. Really, your case is based on lies. And what's more, is pushing for a lynch scummy now? I guess you would rather no-lynch again, right?

edit

So it's suspicious now not to have claimed? You know who the players that claimed are? Exactly those who have come under suspicion so far (and ashersky). Scum will claim when under suspicion, even more likely so than town. Now you're arguing that those who have claimed deserve town points, that's just false logic - they wouldn't have claimed if they hadn't seen the need to. Ashersky is really the only one who claimed without being suspected (and sudgy/chairs, but well, they're "dead" anyway).

edit

What points against you mainly is POE. You advocating no-lynch is just the icing on the cake.

edit

You did you just say about scum wanting to claim last? That aside, I am really against mass-claiming at this point. Everything else aside, we are only one weekend away from the deadline, so a proper discussion of the mass claim results won't be possible. It will only benefit town in that they get more information for their NK.

All of this post just feels so so scummy that I am more than happy with where my vote lies at the moment.

paragraph 1: you will note that in this paragraph I am referring to xeiron as well as you and talking about you as a group or even more so I am talking about what I believe scum would do, so no you havne't done everything that I listed here, but xeiron has, joth has and to an extent you have as well... hence my vote on xeiron and joth and not you. But just because I am not voting for you doesn't mean I can't find you a wee bit suspicious.

paragraph 2: again look at Modern Community. Players who claimed there were also those who came under suspicion. Not exclusively, but in part certainly. and the players who have come under suspicion have claimed prematurely all except for Walrus I believe.... Claiming prematurely is often bad, but isn't always scummy.

paragraph 3: Well then you POE is crappy because you are completely excluding anyone on the archetype wagon which is just plain dumb.

paragraph 4: now you are just being obtuse. Obviously if you read the paragraph with an unbiased mind, what I am saying is that I am willing to claim whenever, but because I know that I am town I would prefer that if we do a mass claim to have those that I suspect go before me because it will be easier for me to catch them in a lie. If I go first and claim redacted then if xeiron or whomever is scum it will be easier for them to come up with a fake claim...

I don't know if you are town or not, but if you are approaching this game with this mindset is extremely poor and is doing nothing to help town in anyway.

[yuma]

also policy vote: faust

Also, I will not claim today, not even at EFHW's request.

refusing to ever (even at the request of the IC) claim isn't helping anyone but yourself

and policy vote: jimmmm

EFHW or chairs - do you have any particular re-reads etc that you think it would be good for me to do to get myself back into the game?

maybe you should read the thread on your own and then figure out who you should reread... you know... on your own...

but really back to vote: xeiron until I get a better understanding of what is going on with pps.

[nkirbit]

Nice catch, I hadn't picked up on that before. My description makes it clear the power is enabled which I didn't quite get until ashersky claimed.

Well, I do think this is scummy. Very, very, very, very scummy.  You knew you were enabled, but didn't at all pause when Ash claimed enabler initially?  Despite apparently collecting your thoughts since day one?  Really?

Man, this reaction sounds like scum who fake-claimed enabled because he knew there was an enabler in the game much much more than an enabled role who knew they were enabled yet didn't at all blink when Ashersky claimed initially.

Not following this thing at all. All I was saying here was on D1 when ashersky claimed enabler was the moment I understood the bit in my role description about being enabled. Up until that point I just rolled right past it. When he claimed then I understood that my ability relied on an enabler, be it him or some else. It was simply a moment of clarity about the concept of enabling which was new to me.

Can you clarify to me what exactly is scummy about that? I'm not arguing the point, I'm saying I genuinely am not grasping what about it is scummy.

I guess I didn't explain that terribly well.  What I was saying was that you were enabled, and had seen Ash post something like "I don't think the enabled players know that they're enabled"... and yet that statement from Ash didn't raise any alarm bells for you at all.  You didn't notice the discrepancy between what Ash had stated and your own knowledge of the fact that you were enabled despite claiming to have mulled over Ash's claim a great deal.

Now, I get that it's not impossible to miss something like that.  I just don't think it's very likely for an enabled role to have missed that.  When you claimed, I picked up on it fairly quickly despite Ash's statement being a week old, and not being enabled myself... and yet you missed it for a week straight.  It's just fishy, is all.  When I'm looking at the two options:

A:  PPS is telling the truth, is enabled, and simply missed the contradiction between Ash's claim and his own
vs
B:  PPS is lying, and hadn't noticed the connection because he actually isn't an enabler, and hadn't spent much time thinking about Ash's claim

I lean towards B.  It's just what I think is more likely.

Yuma is correct, though.  We haven't yet figured out a narrative for you that makes sense as scum.  If you're really scum, why did you act the way you did... I'm not sure.  I'm a little bit worried that it's similar to Eevee in LOTR2, where a lot of pieces just don't add up, but there's no scum narrative.. it's just town missing things, or changing their mind, or not claiming as well as they should have, or any number of things.

unvote.  This is hard.  There are a lot of things you did that are scummy.. but we don't have a big picture.  It may be that you're still the best option even without that big picture.. but ugh.  I keep going back and forth.

[ashersky]

Ok, just arrived back home from vacation.  (Aside for Jimmmmm: seems we were staying at the same hotel as the Melbourne Heart, if you follow A League.)

Lots of posting overnight, which is nice.

First impressions: PPS is caught and scrambling.  Walrus is still the most likely reason for sudgy's death.  The N2 vig claim from Walrus sounds like a half-hearted attempt to save a partner.  Lurkers are lame.  Yuma vs. Faust seems town vs. town.

When is the deadline?  I think walrus/PPS are our best lynch options, then Xeiron or Jimmmm.

[EFHW]

deadline Monday at noon.  Again, I won't be around much Monday morning.  It would be good to try to resolve this tomorrow night.

[nkirbit]

I'm back towards thinking PPS is town.  I know I'm all over the place with this one.  There is a decent amount of evidence, but it just isn't adding up for me.  There are too many unanswered questions that just don't make sense if PPS is scum.

(1): Why did he claim in the first place?  He was under a little bit of pressure, and it was starting to pick up.. but I don't think he was close to getting lynched.  His initial claim reads to me like excited town who wants to hammer scum, and didn't 100% think through the claim.

Regardless of his alignment, the goal of his claim (#801) was to slam the door on Jotheonah by implicating him in the Sudgy NK.  The only problem is.. his post didn't actually do that.  The logic just wasn't sound... nothing he brought forward implicated Jotheonah at all.

Now, is that more likely to come from town or from scum?  I think it's town.  I think a town player is more likely to get excited that they caught scum and spill the beans than a scum player is to make a fake claim that didn't work.  Scum are just more careful.. they check that it makes sense for them to make the claim if they're town, and that the claim actually has a purpose.

If there's one thing that I've learned from playing mafia here, it's that the claims that don't make sense usually come from town.  I've seen it time and time again.  Eevee hiding behind the player he listed as his top scum read in LOTR2... Mcmc not really being able to explain why he JKed who he did in mean girls.  Xeiron stumbling through his claim day1 of Shakespeare.  The perfect claims usually come from scum, because they make sure that they're clean, and they won't get questioned.  I think the form of PPS's claim much more closely matches that of town claims than scum claims I've seen.

(2).  If PPS is scum, why did he claim enabled when he did?  This is one that just doesn't make any sense for me.  Town PPS has an easy answer.. because he was an enabled.  Fair enough.

But scum PPS..?  Nothing he brought forward in his claim really added anything.. it just lowered his credibility by splitting his claim into two parts.  He tried to put suspicion on Ashersky, but he didn't really have anything more than a feeling (nor did he try and say he did).  I just don't see what incentive scum!PPS has to claim enabled AFTER he had already claimed.

There is the little bit of PPS not catching Ashersky's enabler thing earlier.. which is suspicious.  But EFHW and Walrus didn't see it either (and Walrus also claims to be enabled), so perhaps that's excusable, if not a bit odd.


Sorry, that was a bit scattered.. but here's what I'm thinking now: While a lot of what PPS is saying doesn't add up, and it's unclear why he did exactly what he did, I'm still not seeing a reason for scum to do what he did, at all.  If he's scum, he made a series of risky claims (one after the other), rather than getting it all out at once.  His last claim makes sense for scum to make (after EFHW's initial allegation).. but his initial two claims were.. just weird and not really accomplishing much.  The sort of claim scum wants to avoid, I think.  I think that scum tend to want to make claims later in the game with results, not a mismash of information that doesn't really lead us anywhere.  I believe that these sorts of claims more often come from town than scum

[nkirbit]

PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.

PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.

Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy.  No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys.  We don't have so many of those.

[nkirbit]

PPS:  Do you know if/where you traveled to last night with the doctor?

[xeiron]

I see that pingpongsam has claimed some more.
I am suprised at this new information , as his claim seemed so true earlier.
Now my initial recation is that pingpongsam is lying scum after reding troug once.
I will read through once more before I make up my mind.
unvote: from Walrus at the moment.

[faust]

also policy vote: faust

Also, I will not claim today, not even at EFHW's request.

refusing to ever (even at the request of the IC) claim isn't helping anyone but yourself

I did not refuse to ever claim. I refused to claim today.

[faust]

Not lynching pps at this point may be dangerous because if Walrus is telling the truth, we're risking losing two town players at the hands of town.

Nkirbit's response to the pps issue seems very genuine to me, but I don't agree with it. I think pps claimed early to claim early, because early claims are generally believed more than late claims. He knew he had to do something because he took a very scummy stance on Archetype. He had his Enabled Regenerating Protector claim engineered N1, and thought it would look more like town if he kept the Enabled part secret for some time.

Then after EFHW's relevation, he was caught and since then tried to somehow save himself. My vote remains here.

[faust]

PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.

PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.

Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy.  No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys.  We don't have so many of those.

I get that you want to play a flawless town game. But how often does this happen? Most likely, we will mislynch at some point, and we have to consider what happens if you do. If someone claims a role that says "if you get lynched, town loses", you might think twice about lynching that player, even if you are 90% sure that he is scum. On the other hand, if someone claims VT, that's usually reason for a policy lynch. This is the reasoning I apply here.

[yuma]

PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.

PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.

Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy.  No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys.  We don't have so many of those.

I get that you want to play a flawless town game. But how often does this happen? Most likely, we will mislynch at some point, and we have to consider what happens if you do. If someone claims a role that says "if you get lynched, town loses", you might think twice about lynching that player, even if you are 90% sure that he is scum. On the other hand, if someone claims VT, that's usually reason for a policy lynch. This is the reasoning I apply here.

if you are playing like a moron sure... go ahead and policy lynch... and your hypothetical is dumb, no one has ever made a role like that. nkirbit isn't talking about a flawless game... he id talking about winning. mislynches are how mafia wins. people often think that night kills is how they do it and this is false. this looks like a mislynch to me therefore it is in mafia's favor so i am against it and with nkirbit.

xeiron on the other hand and you to an extent appear to just want a lynch and want it to go through and be a mislynch. I am voting for xeiron and there i will stay

[yuma]

I think pps claimed early to claim early, because early claims are generally believed more than late claims.

are they? look back at recent games and prove this, i don't think you will be able to do so...

[jotheonah]

PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.

PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.

Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy.  No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys.  We don't have so many of those.

I get that you want to play a flawless town game. But how often does this happen? Most likely, we will mislynch at some point, and we have to consider what happens if you do. If someone claims a role that says "if you get lynched, town loses", you might think twice about lynching that player, even if you are 90% sure that he is scum. On the other hand, if someone claims VT, that's usually reason for a policy lynch. This is the reasoning I apply here.

if you are playing like a moron sure... go ahead and policy lynch... and your hypothetical is dumb, no one has ever made a role like that. nkirbit isn't talking about a flawless game... he id talking about winning. mislynches are how mafia wins. people often think that night kills is how they do it and this is false. this looks like a mislynch to me therefore it is in mafia's favor so i am against it and with nkirbit.

xeiron on the other hand and you to an extent appear to just want a lynch and want it to go through and be a mislynch. I am voting for xeiron and there i will stay

That's such a ridiculous misread. All Faust is saying is that town doesn't play perfectly. We're allowed a certain number of mis lynches. And those mislynches are better than no lynches because they're informational.

Your assertion that mafia wins by mislynches, not night kills, is also kind of nonsensical. If that were true the right town play would be to always no lynch. But if town always no lynched they'd have no way to deduce scum and nothing to do once they did.

Nkirbit, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't feel safer with a perfect narrative for PPS. But LAL, man. Lynch All Liars. He's admitted to engaging in a "town ploy" and to letting us believe things he knows aren't true. Plus he's scrambling like a caught fish. Plus his day one behavior re:Archetype. What more do you need? A hat with a giant neon sign on it that says SCUM?