Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: Voltaire on November 19, 2013, 11:27:23 am
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Welcome to RMM12: Time War Mafia!
Mod: Voltaire
Backup Mod: mail-mi
Players (14 total):
1. Archetype - lynched D1 (Davros, a Busdriver)
2. chairs
3. sudgy - died N1 (Rory Williams, a hated weak Doctor)
4. Walrus
5. Jimmmmm
6. xeiron
7. ashersky
8. faust
9. Galzria/yuma
10. 2.71828.....
11. EFHW
12. pingpongsam - lynched D2 (the Master, an enabled Time Traveling ninja Roleblocker)
13. nkirbit
14. jotheonah
Day 1 - final vote count (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329949#msg329949)
Day 2 - final vote count (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg332672#msg332672)
Subs:
1. yuma
Players Tagged:
shraeye
manda2014
Teproc
The Rules of Mafia (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9211.0) will be used with the following changes. Please read them if this is your first time playing!
- Day deadlines will be 7 days and night deadlines will be 48 hours.
- During the first 24 hours of night, please PM the mods to confirm that you are still playing. After 24 hours, if you have not PM'd us, the mod(s) will PM you to check to see if you are still in fact playing. If we have not received a confirmation by the time Night is supposed to end, Night will continue as we look for a replacement.
- Days may start earlier than scheduled if every player still alive says they are comfortable opening up the next day early in their check-in PM. The deadline for the next day will remain the same.
- if the deadline is reached without a player reaching the lynch number, a no-lynch will occur
- prods of absent players will be issued upon request after 24 hours. A replacement will be located starting after 48 hours with no reply to a prod.
Set-up specific info found in the next post.
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Set-Up Information:
This is a Role Madness game. This means that every player will have a role, and you should be prepared for (almost) anything. However, nothing about this game is Bastard (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bastard). Every attempt has been made to ensure that this game is balanced and fun, but no promise about balance is made.
This game is Doctor Who-themed, and in a happy co-incidence will be run shortly after the big 50th anniversary on November 23. However, spoilerphobes rest assured - this was developed prior to the 50th, so nothing about this game will spoil the anniversary for you. In an even happier co-incidence, it looks like the "Time War" theme will also appear in the 50th. If a sufficient amount of time elapses before this game begins, I may incorporate elements from the special into the flavor if there are no protests.
That said, you do not need to know anything about Doctor Who to play, or enjoy, this game. Outside of the one mechanic, this is a more-or-less straightforward mafia game.
New mechanic: Time Travel!
A Wibbly-Wobbly Explanation
At least one role in this game has the ability to Time Travel. This is an action that will be resolved as part of Natural Action Resolution as step 0, before Copy. When each night arrives, a Time Travel role may chose to travel to a different night to perform their action, if any. After carrying out their action (if applicable), they return to the current night. A Time Travel role may not cross their own time stream (they may not travel to the same night twice). Should a Time Travel role somehow be forced to visit the same night twice, they will be treated as a vanilla member of their faction for the duration of the night.
At the end of each night, all nights in the “past” will be re-evaluated and the game state will be adjusted to account for these actions, beginning with N0. This may include, but not be limited to, players returning from the dead, dying on nights they previously lived through, receiving a different result for a previously submitted action, etc. Things may get timey-wimey (potentially confusing), but the roles in this game have been designed around the Time Travel concept. All effort has been made to ensure that things will remain understandable and balanced (though balance cannot be guaranteed).
Game Days are Time Locked (they cannot be altered in any way). This means that any players with day powers may not use them at any time other than during that day itself (a D2 dayvig could only ever fire during the original D2), and any player who returns to life after having missed days may not vote during those days, nor will they count as a living player during those missed days. They are, however, eligible to use and be targeted by night actions during missed nights. They will count as a living player again at the start of the next day. The same is true for when a player who dies on an earlier night will first count as a dead player.
As an example, imagine a game with the following roles: Time Traveling town doctor, Time Traveling mafia roleblocker, and some number of VTs and Goons.
On N1, the doc travels to N3 and docs VTa. The roleblocker elects not to travel and so travels to N1 normally, blocking VTb. The mafia kills VTc. Results: On N1, VTb is roleblocked and VTc dies.
On N2, the doc travels to N1 and docs VTc. The roleblocker travels to N3, blocking the doctor. The mafia kills VTa. Results: On N1, VTb is roleblocked. VTc is saved from the mafia kill by the doctor, which means that VTc has come back to life and will rejoin the game on D3*. On N2, no power roles use powers, and VTa dies.
On N3, the doc travels to N2 and docs VTa. The roleblocker travels to N2 and blocks VTb. The mafia kills VTc (again). Results: On N2, VTb is roleblocked. VTa is saved from the mafia kill by the doctor, which means that VTa has come back to life and will rejoin the game on D4**. On N3, the doctor targets VTa, which fails as the doctor is roleblocked. VTc dies.
*if VTc had been a power role, he would have been eligible to use his power on N2.
**if VTa had been a power role, he would have been eligible to use his power on N3.
This example game is broken, of course. I wouldn't give away what the actual setup looks like. :)
Please ask any questions about the setup in-thread during sign-ups.
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/tag
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Are flips still treated as normal? So you could have a player flipped town and brought to life again?
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Are flips still treated as normal? So you could have a player flipped town and brought to life again?
Yes. But please note - the game was designed around Time Travel, and the balance issues created in the scenario you describe were taken into account.
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/in
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I just read the setup info, DEFINITELY /in. I don't watch Doctor Who, but this game looks amazing.
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Great game everybody! The time travel mechanic was REALLY cool. I still can't believe that quantum boomerang anticausal lynch paradox on Day -2. Well played Daleks!
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Sorry, put that in the wrong place...
/in
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Great game everybody! The time travel mechanic was REALLY cool. I still can't believe that quantum boomerang anticausal lynch paradox on Day -2. Well played Daleks!
I do not have enough +1s to give you here, so I'm just going to /in.
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The time travel mechanic sounds awesome. /in
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/tag
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modtag
This setup looks so sosososososososososo cool, I wish I hadn't looked it over and had signed up instead!
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Great game everybody! The time travel mechanic was REALLY cool. I still can't believe that quantum boomerang anticausal lynch paradox on Day -2. Well played Daleks!
I've time traveled back to /in to prevent such a massacre from occurring!
(please note here that yuma does not play the same in RMM games. He treats them less seriously and devotes far less time to them regardless of alignment--I say this for every RMM game I join, but want to make sure that people know this up front. I will still be posting regularly, but comparisons made to my normal style will be guaranteed to be flawed.
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/in, even though I still don't get Dr. Who.
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moar taggin1
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absolutely /in
P.S. (what's the / for?)
P.P.S If I want to Mod a mafia game myself, what do I have to do?
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Go here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9677.0) and ask to be put in a particular queue.
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/tag
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/tag
Definitely want to in here, but I'm already in three games, so it'll have to wait until I'm dead in one of them.
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/in
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This game was awesome. I was particularly surprised when [redacted] used his [redacted] power mid-day on [redacted]. It was really crucial!
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Oh look, I'm going to mod a game one day!
These jokes will continue until sign-ups are full.
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Make sure you leave a space at the end, for when you randomly introduce a 9th player that nobody realised was coming and had to re-order them all
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Make sure you leave a space at the end, for when you randomly introduce a 9th player that nobody realised was coming and had to re-order them all
+8.5
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ASHERSKY IS SCUM! LYNCH HIM BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!
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Its just a jump to the left.....
and a step to the riiiiiiight
Put your hands on your hips
And........oh wait, Time WAR Mafia, nevermind
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I'll probably /out if it starts before December 16.
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I'll probably /out if it starts before December 16.
and then join again on December the 15th?
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I will be highly unavailable due to ATH starting on the 7th, but the theme of night altering results is too intriguing to pass up. I'll /in, but I won't be super active. It's just, I won't follow this if I don't, and I want to follow it. So.
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BEWARE! I HAVE SEEN THE FUTURE, AND THE DALEKS WON! YOU MUST CHANGE IT! SIGN UP IF YOU WANT TO SAVE THE UNIVERSE!
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BEWARE! I HAVE SEEN THE FUTURE, AND THE DALEKS WON! YOU MUST CHANGE IT! SIGN UP IF YOU WANT TO SAVE THE UNIVERSE!
/in as long as I am dead in either chocolate or meta mafia before this starts. And because I want to save the universe and only have so much time to do it in.
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Catching up on Dr Who episodes to prep posts for this game. I have only seen seasons 5 and 6 with Matt Smith as the doctor, and just started season 7. "Dinasaurs on a spaceship" was tonight. "A town called mercy" up next.
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/out for now, sorry.
I'm just not sure how much access I'll have between the 7th and the 17th. If it starts on or after the 17th I'll definitely re-in.
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/in
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We have one spot left if everyone is OK waiting until the 17th (which as a mod I am fine with waiting or not waiting). Two spots if people want to start before then.
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We have one spot left if everyone is OK waiting until the 17th (which as a mod I am fine with waiting or not waiting). Two spots if people want to start before then.
Depending on how much internet I get in LA I may be okay to start earlier - I'll let you know.
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We have one spot left if everyone is OK waiting until the 17th (which as a mod I am fine with waiting or not waiting). Two spots if people want to start before then.
Depending on how much internet I get in LA I may be okay to start earlier - I'll let you know.
Cool.
Also, what's the consensus from the community on what ongoing games need to end before this begins?
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It would be nice to see RMM11 or one of the main games end.
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We have one spot left if everyone is OK waiting until the 17th (which as a mod I am fine with waiting or not waiting). Two spots if people want to start before then.
It's fine with me, but the week of the 23rd I'll probably be only able to post in the evenings.
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Ugh, I vigged the wrong person.
/out
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/in
now to go read what we are doing here
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okay this looks hard ad basically insane
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/tag
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Ugh, I vigged the wrong person.
/out
Is this a serious /out or are you making a time-travel joke?
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for real; personal reasons, sorry for making it unclear
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That's one spot left! I believe this game will have PMs go out on Dec. 17 if that is cool with everyone.
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That's one spot left! I believe this game will have PMs go out on Dec. 17 if that is cool with everyone.
I'm having knee surgery on December 15th.. and won't be home until the 17th. I was originally avoiding this game because I assumed that it was starting much earlier... but given this... /in!
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That's a full player list! Please out if you need to - otherwise PMs will go out on 12/17 (and a happy recovery to you, nkirbit!)
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Final setup tweaks have been made. PMs have been written. Now, the waiting game
begins continues...
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sorry voltaire i need to /out
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sorry voltaire i need to /out
No problem.
One spot available - if it's taken soon, we'll still start 12/17. If the game isn't full by then, it will start the moment we get a final /in.
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Dang, was looking forward to my 1st yuma game.
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Voltaire I'm still really upset you didn't give 'Time War Mafia' the subtitle "It's about time..."
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/in!
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this. looks. awesome.
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/in!
We have our complete roster! The game begins on 12/17 as planned.
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/in!
We have our complete roster! The game begins on 17/12 as planned.
FTFY
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/in!
We have our complete roster! The game begins on 17.12 as planned.
FTFY
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/in!
We have our complete roster! The game begins on 2.71 as planned.
FTFY
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/in!
We have our complete roster! The game begins on 2.71828..... as planned.
FTFY
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/in!
We have our complete roster! The game begins on 2.71828..... as planned.
FTFY
how does that even work?
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happy that joth is in a game! sad that I am not in it!
put me back in as a potential sub voltaire
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put me back in as a potential sub voltaire
Will do!
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We'll just jump back in time to before yuma outed and joth inned.
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It's the 17th!
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It's the 17th!
As soon as your mod gets his act together and creates the required QT(s), we'll be good to go!
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Oh good. Cause I was not sure how I was going to get through the work day. Other than, like, doing my work.
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Time Travel
a bit more clarification
Time Travel occurs as step 0 (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution), with the Time Traveling role journeying to their destination, carrying out their action, and then returning to the current night. This "returning" does not count as a "visit" for purposes of Time Travel. As such, they are still eligible to travel to the current night via time travel on a later night. They are not a vanilla member of their faction during this "returning" visit, and they are eligible to be targeted by actions. If, however, a Time Traveling role elects not to use their ability on a night, they are considered to have Time Traveled to that same night and as such it counts as "visited" for the purposes of time travel.
For example, imagine a time-traveling Doctor. On N1, the Doctor travels to N2 and doctors Player A. On N1, a mafia Roleblocker targets the Doctor (who is an eligible target as he is on his "return" visit to N1). On N2, the Doctor travels to N1 (which is still an option for him as he has not Time Traveled to it) and doctors Player B, but is roleblocked (see before). On N2, the Doctor is killed by the mafia.
A Time Travel visit trumps a "return" visit when nights are re-evaluated.
I am clarifying this since it is, quite frankly, confusing at first. If these "return" visits were not treated in this manner, Time Travel roles could be untargetable at night (a Time Travel role could just journey to N3,141,593 and so on each night).
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Role PMs will be going out shortly. All players need to confirm. Once that happens, the game will begin in 24 hours.
This thread is now LOCKED. If you have any questions about the setup, please PM me.
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Your Flavor Names are links to a wiki, FYI.
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All players have confirmed. D1 will start tomorrow at 530 PM forum time.
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speccy...!!! if it is ok for potential subs to have the speccy that is
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All players have confirmed. D1 will start tomorrow at 530 PM forum time.
we we we so excited.
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Thread is still LOCKED. No posts at all are allowed while the thread is locked.
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(please note that in this game, all flavor is just flavor unless it is bold)
The Last Great Time War has been raging for eons - for seconds - for all eternity - for about, um, half an hour. The conflict between Time Lords and Daleks has spread to every corner of the galaxy and every moment in time. Billions of innocent lives have been lost (and created) in this war. Quite frankly, it's all getting a bit confusing.
That's why you have all been summoned here by the Shadow Proclamation. We're sticking you all in a room (well, it's more of a time and space regulator. Imagine the governor on a steam engine. Got it? It's nothing like that), throwing away the key, and making you sort it all out among yourselves. Figure out which of you are prolonging this war and get rid of them. Because quite frankly, it's giving the universe a headache.
That said, it'd be a bit too chaotic if you didn't have a leader. The Doctor, who mumbled something about wishing to be called "EFHW" now - or was it "Innocent Child"? - actually, it's weird, because he also said his name wasn't the point - has agreed to take charge. Good luck!
D1 start - thread UNLOCKED!
Vote Count 1.0
Not voting (14): Archetype, ashersky, chairs, EFHW, faust, Galzria, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, nkirbit, pingpongsam, sudgy, Walrus, xeiron, 2.71828.....
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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First!
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Second!
And, obviously, Vote: EFHW.
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Vote: joth for posting in a locked thread
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vote: sudgy for voting the IC.
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Vote: jotheonah for being new
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Also, I am an enabler.
I'm claiming now for a reason. I'm positive, from my role description, that I enabled more than one person. I know what power I enable. I believe that you don't know that you are enabled.
I'm also the resident expert on enablers, and I'm honored that Voltaire decided to borrow the role from his experience in Modern Community!. Hence my decision to claim right out of the gate.
I believe this tells us a lot about the set-up, and about how it may interact with the time travel rules the mod has set-up.
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Vote: jotheonah for being new
joth isn't new. He modded mafia V. That makes him old
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Vote: jotheonah for being new
joth isn't new. He modded mafia V. That makes him old
Well, newly returning. I have played with Jo before.
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vote: sudgy for voting the IC.
Vote: ashersky for voting me when he should know it's a joke since I did the same thing in a game he modded!
And, oh my. A claim.
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Vote: jotheonah for being new
joth isn't new. He modded mafia V. That makes him old
Well, newly returning. I have played with Jo before.
vote: archetype
Scum caught in a web of lies
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Also, I am an enabler.
I'm claiming now for a reason. I'm positive, from my role description, that I enabled more than one person. I know what power I enable. I believe that you don't know that you are enabled.
I'm also the resident expert on enablers, and I'm honored that Voltaire decided to borrow the role from his experience in Modern Community!. Hence my decision to claim right out of the gate.
I believe this tells us a lot about the set-up, and about how it may interact with the time travel rules the mod has set-up.
Modern community had cross-team enabeling, right? Do you think you enable scum? Maybe both scum and town?
I trust that you will judge yourself how important the role you enable is for scum, and that you will volunteer for a self-lynch if that is the best we can do to hurt scum today.
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Also, I am an enabler.
I'm claiming now for a reason. I'm positive, from my role description, that I enabled more than one person. I know what power I enable. I believe that you don't know that you are enabled.
I'm also the resident expert on enablers, and I'm honored that Voltaire decided to borrow the role from his experience in Modern Community!. Hence my decision to claim right out of the gate.
I believe this tells us a lot about the set-up, and about how it may interact with the time travel rules the mod has set-up.
Modern community had cross-team enabeling, right? Do you think you enable scum? Maybe both scum and town?
I trust that you will judge yourself how important the role you enable is for scum, and that you will volunteer for a self-lynch if that is the best we can do to hurt scum today.
From my PM (specifically the power I enable), it's much more likely I'm enabling town. I can come up with scenarios where I might enable scum as well, and there are a few things that could make that clear to me, probably as soon as D2.
If/when it's determined that my enabling is hurting town more than helping, we should definitely lynch me.
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Something something jotheonah being old and new something something time travel joke.
And wow, right out of the gate with a claim. I am intrigued! One the one hand, it's good to see ash with some quick and decisive action. Nobody could accuse him of being "planless" here. On the other hand, why the immediacy? Was this claim so important that it goes against the established protocol of patience? Just because you're the resident expert? It smells a bit rolefishy to me. What manner of expertise do you have to share that will be so helpful? Or is that not for us to know yet?
So I'm landing pretty null on the claim right now. But I do like that it gives us something to talk about.
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Interesting claim.
@ash: You don't think Enabled players would be told that they were Enabled?
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Keep in mind that Galzria, with a similar role, claimed D1 too. I don't think it's the worst claim to make.
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Keep in mind that Galzria, with a similar role, claimed D1 too. I don't think it's the worst claim to make.
I considered that. But of course ash knows this, and he knows that we know this. It's possible he's made allusions to Modern Community in order to get us thinking along those lines.
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Why is claiming expressly bad, anyhow? It is information that can be leverage for corroboration later, no?
Besides, if ash is scum why would he reveal this if it were true? Right, he would not. If he is scum his revelation is proven untrue, well, that would be dumb too, right?
So, if ash is Town and what he reveals is true then at worst he gave Mafia information but guess what, he gave us information too. Information that can be corroborated and/or used to sort out the typically confusing happening of RMM. I seriously doubt a Town ash is coing right out of the gate with false information since that is always stupid and I seriously doubt scum ash would make the play whether it was true or not.
So, I ask, what's the problem with his play?
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No problem per se. As I said, I'm feeling pretty null about it right now. But ash has cultivated a meta as someone who is capable of anything. It would be foolish to take the claim at face value.
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Interesting claim.
@ash: You don't think Enabled players would be told that they were Enabled?
Just the way the PM is worded, and the fact that I think I'm enabling more than one player. I just don't see this as a "you are an enabled [power]" type of power.
I'm sure someone could prove this one way or the other, but I don't want to actually out the power itself, or the players holding it, as that would not be good.
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Hi everyone.
I don't know what ashersky is up to. It seems unwise, really, but there may be more to the story. I have to go look up why Galzria did it. I understood at the time.
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Looked it up. Galzria claimed b/c he thought maybe town should lynch him, just in case he enabled a scum power. ashersky says his claim is along those same lines, but then he thinks he enables town. So he seems to have painted a target on his back more than anything else. If enabled players don't know they are enabled, this new information doesn't help them b/c they don't know if it involves them or not. And I don't see how this helps with figuring out time travel puzzles at this point.
sudgy, pps supporting this makes me suspicious of the three of them.
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Vote: sugdy for voting the IC.
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Something something jotheonah being old and new something something time travel joke.
And wow, right out of the gate with a claim. I am intrigued! One the one hand, it's good to see ash with some quick and decisive action. Nobody could accuse him of being "planless" here. On the other hand, why the immediacy? Was this claim so important that it goes against the established protocol of patience? Just because you're the resident expert? It smells a bit rolefishy to me. What manner of expertise do you have to share that will be so helpful? Or is that not for us to know yet?
So I'm landing pretty null on the claim right now. But I do like that it gives us something to talk about.
You made a great argument, but ended up null?
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Interesting claim.
@ash: You don't think Enabled players would be told that they were Enabled?
Just the way the PM is worded, and the fact that I think I'm enabling more than one player. I just don't see this as a "you are an enabled [power]" type of power.
I'm sure someone could prove this one way or the other, but I don't want to actually out the power itself, or the players holding it, as that would not be good.
I still don't understand why you claimed. I'm leaning scum, but its a weird claim coming from scum. Especially right of the gate.
Vote:ashersky
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Second!
And, obviously, Vote: EFHW.
Vote: sudgy. I'm pretty sure EFHW is Town.
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Well first of all I didn't think the argument was that great, although I thank you for saying so! It's not great because different threads of reasoning point to different results, hence the null conclusion. I'm not sure of anything in the first 3 posts of the game! I just wanted to put my thoughts on paper and get people thinking about the WIFOMiness of the situation.
I guess if I had to choose right now, I'd lean towards town!ash. But we'll see how things develop.
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I don't know what ashersky is up to.
This is a pretty good summary of ash's play a lot of the time.
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Interesting claim.
@ash: You don't think Enabled players would be told that they were Enabled?
Just the way the PM is worded, and the fact that I think I'm enabling more than one player. I just don't see this as a "you are an enabled [power]" type of power.
I'm sure someone could prove this one way or the other, but I don't want to actually out the power itself, or the players holding it, as that would not be good.
I still don't understand why you claimed. I'm leaning scum, but its a weird claim coming from scum. Especially right of the gate.
Vote:ashersky
Vote: Archetype. Only scum says this.
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Other than time-travel, there is zero mod-confirmed information provided about the set-up. Here's what we know so far (* means mod-confirmed):
--at least one role can time travel and change things that happened in the past or might happen in the future*
--there is an Innocent Child (EFHW)*
--there are enabled role(s) via an enabler (ashersky)
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So here's the plan:
1.) Kill ash.
2a.) If he's scum or enables scum, great!
2b.) If instead he enables some badass town PR, go back in time and prevent him from being killed.
FOOLPROOF!
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So here's the plan:
1.) Kill ash.
2a.) If he's scum or enables scum, great!
2b.) If instead he enables some badass town PR, go back in time and prevent him from being killed.
FOOLPROOF!
If you could kill me at night, that would work. Except then you'd be scum.
You can't go back in time to days and stop lynches.
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You can't go back in time to days and stop lynches.
Has read and understands setup? Obvscum.
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I don't see why ashersky's claim benefits town more than scum. Each person gets another puzzle piece, but finding the structure of a puzzle where you know 4ish pieces is much easier than seeing the structure when you have only two.
I don't have anything else to say about the claim, really. Could be town ash, could be scum ash. Not a clue.
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You can't go back in time to days and stop lynches.
Has read and understands setup? Obvscum.
I just got "Didn't read and understand the setup? Obvscum" from someone in another game.
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There could be a CHRONO-VIG!
Just brainstorming here :P
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I believe this tells us a lot about the set-up, and about how it may interact with the time travel rules the mod has set-up.
Would you mind elaborating this, Ash? What about the set up does it tell us?
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You can't go back in time to days and stop lynches.
Has read and understands setup? Obvscum.
I just got "Didn't read and understand the setup? Obvscum" from someone in another game.
Sounds about right.
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I believe this tells us a lot about the set-up, and about how it may interact with the time travel rules the mod has set-up.
Would you mind elaborating this, Ash? What about the set up does it tell us?
It tells us, for example, that some roles are going to be permanent (until death) and some roles are enabled (until my death). It tells me (at least) a role that is enabled, and I can infer (correctly or not) what that might mean for other powers, how it affects scum (I believe that I enable town-only, and that scum doesn't know about what I enable) decisions and possibilities.
I expect that at least a few others must have some use for this information, that would help them with their own info.
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Careful about inferring too much about the setup though. Remember how much drama that caused in Modern Community.
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Careful about inferring too much about the setup though. Remember how much drama that caused in Modern Community.
Agreed, for sure. I'm well aware I may infer incorrectly. I'm not putting anything out there that may 1) give scum too much information, or 2) mislead us down the wrong path until I am much more sure of the info. This probably means later in the game, when flips and claims and such are available.
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By the way, I should have much more time to post due to
Christmas Holiday break.
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Does the IC know the game started? I've seen her post in other threads in this very sub forum, but not here. Her leadership and guidance is needed. I don't even know what time it is!
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Adventure Time, maybe? Or did that happen later?
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Adventure Time, maybe? Or did that happen later?
No, that's my game, and it doesn't happen yet.
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So here's the plan:
1.) Kill ash.
2a.) If he's scum or enables scum, great!
2b.) If instead he enables some badass town PR, go back in time and prevent him from being killed.
FOOLPROOF!
I LOLled. Good thinking outside the box.
So we should absolutely not lynch ash. I have a reason why, but if I say it out loud it won't come true. Such is mafia.
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So here's the plan:
1.) Kill ash.
2a.) If he's scum or enables scum, great!
2b.) If instead he enables some badass town PR, go back in time and prevent him from being killed.
FOOLPROOF!
If you could kill me at night, that would work. Except then you'd be scum.
You can't go back in time to days and stop lynches.
Hugh. When I started reading this thread, ash's claim made sense to me. But now pointing out that we shouldn't lynch him because of it, that's scummy.
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I would love to hear what Galzria thinks of the claim, given that he was the one to claim Enabler D1 in Modern Community.
Until then, vote: Archetype seems like a good idea.
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So here's the plan:
1.) Kill ash.
2a.) If he's scum or enables scum, great!
2b.) If instead he enables some badass town PR, go back in time and prevent him from being killed.
FOOLPROOF!
If you could kill me at night, that would work. Except then you'd be scum.
You can't go back in time to days and stop lynches.
Hugh. When I started reading this thread, ash's claim made sense to me. But now pointing out that we shouldn't lynch him because of it, that's scummy.
I didn't say don't lynch me. No words in my mouth, please. I was pointing out that plan doesn't work.
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Hugh. When I started reading this thread, ash's claim made sense to me. But now pointing out that we shouldn't lynch him because of it, that's scummy.
There is a difference between should not lynch him today, and should newer lynch him.
I agree with Jotheonah that Ash should get a pass. For D1.
But depending on what will happend, I can see him becoming a great lynch target at a later stage, so I do not think enabeler is a safe fakeclaim for scum to make.
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
Possibly. But why didn't you wait with the claim until you know that?
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
Possibly. But why didn't you wait with the claim until you know that?
I firmly am in the camp that enablers need to be known early. We saw it in action in M31, both done well (Galz) and badly (Arch). You saw how scum took advantage of it (you!).
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
Possibly. But why didn't you wait with the claim until you know that?
I firmly am in the camp that enablers need to be known early. We saw it in action in M31, both done well (Galz) and badly (Arch). You saw how scum took advantage of it (you!).
Yes, but that was cross-team enabling. If you enable town, this could be very dangerous.
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So, instead of easy to manipulate RVS we have real discussion over an early claim which I chalk up to being great D1 play.
Most of the shape of the game at this point makes sense to me. faust's vote on Archetype does not. I don't see the reasoning, it's not that I wouldn't understand it, I simply don't see it. It looks like a sheep off of Jimmmmm's vote. Now Jimmmmm's reasoning I see but do not grasp. I'd like to hear some description of why Town would never implicate a D1 claim such as ashersky's as being scummy.
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So, instead of easy to manipulate RVS we have real discussion over an early claim which I chalk up to being great D1 play.
Most of the shape of the game at this point makes sense to me. faust's vote on Archetype does not. I don't see the reasoning, it's not that I wouldn't understand it, I simply don't see it. It looks like a sheep off of Jimmmmm's vote. Now Jimmmmm's reasoning I see but do not grasp. I'd like to hear some description of why Town would never implicate a D1 claim such as ashersky's as being scummy.
Well, I think ash's claim rather comes from town. Even if it doesn't, i's enough to let him live through D1. Why is Archetype voting him?
This is far from a solid case, but D1 just started.
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So, instead of easy to manipulate RVS we have real discussion over an early claim which I chalk up to being great D1 play.
Most of the shape of the game at this point makes sense to me. faust's vote on Archetype does not. I don't see the reasoning, it's not that I wouldn't understand it, I simply don't see it. It looks like a sheep off of Jimmmmm's vote. Now Jimmmmm's reasoning I see but do not grasp. I'd like to hear some description of why Town would never implicate a D1 claim such as ashersky's as being scummy.
He was too serious. Trying too hard to look like he was weighing things up.
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Looked it up. Galzria claimed b/c he thought maybe town should lynch him, just in case he enabled a scum power. ashersky says his claim is along those same lines, but then he thinks he enables town. So he seems to have painted a target on his back more than anything else. If enabled players don't know they are enabled, this new information doesn't help them b/c they don't know if it involves them or not. And I don't see how this helps with figuring out time travel puzzles at this point.
sudgy, pps supporting this makes me suspicious of the three of them.
I'm following how you would suspect supporters since sudgy and I may be scum happy with the fact a Townie has a put target on his own back. But you suspect all 3 of us? Why would you suspect ash of being scum for making himself a target? As I understand it that would be terrible scum play and is the core reason I think it isn't a bad play to make. It offers me clarity as to who might be my Town ally since I seriously doubt scum would be so stupid as to make this particular claim. No one else has the convenience of being mod-confirmed Town like you so providing information that can be directly used to corroborate a person strikes me as pro-town, I mean, Mafia already knows for certain who is Town (unless we have another faction amongst us).
It sounds like to me you want your cake and to eat it to; that you feel there may be some sort of foul play involved but then you want to implicate everyone surrounding it when it makes no good sense for all 3 persons in this interaction to be suspect unless you think you've identified the scum team... which is patently terrible D1 play... especially for the IC, whose observations are naturally given heavier weight since there is no concerns of ulterior motive.
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So, instead of easy to manipulate RVS we have real discussion over an early claim which I chalk up to being great D1 play.
Most of the shape of the game at this point makes sense to me. faust's vote on Archetype does not. I don't see the reasoning, it's not that I wouldn't understand it, I simply don't see it. It looks like a sheep off of Jimmmmm's vote. Now Jimmmmm's reasoning I see but do not grasp. I'd like to hear some description of why Town would never implicate a D1 claim such as ashersky's as being scummy.
He was too serious. Trying too hard to look like he was weighing things up.
So you went from "only scum says this" implying that Town would never say these words, to "he was too serious" or "trying too hard" which is more to do with perception rather than taking offense to the specific words used. I love me a good scum slip or a more meta scum characterization based on specific word patterns but I'm not seeing it here and you haven't substantiated that it exists.
That said, I'll buy faust's vote on him for attacking what I perceive to be pro-town play.
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I also want to point out that what I said about Enablers in M31 applies here too: For all we know, there might be a SK or two scum factions in this game. If that's the case, claiming Enabler as scum is a terrible move to make, because it makes you a premier target for the other faction.
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My guess is that we are dealing with only one scumteam. The reason is that time travel is a complicated mechanic, and two scumteams, or a SK, would complicate things further, possibly too much.
Of course it is too early to tell for sure.
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On the other hand, why do a time travel mafia if you're not going to have a lot of action happening at night? And what better way to have a lot of action at night than to have multiple scum teams?
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Vote Count 1.1
sudgy (2): ashersky, EFHW
ashersky (2): sudgy, Archetype
Archetype (3): 2.7..., Jimmmmm, faust
Not voting (7): chairs, Galzria, jotheonah, nkirbit, pingpongsam, Walrus, xeiron
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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Does the IC know the game started? I've seen her post in other threads in this very sub forum, but not here. Her leadership and guidance is needed. I don't even know what time it is!
Guess you missed this (see below)! But it is true that sub-modding for Dynasty took up a lot of my attention yesterday. They go into night later today, so I will be more free.
Looked it up. Galzria claimed b/c he thought maybe town should lynch him, just in case he enabled a scum power. ashersky says his claim is along those same lines, but then he thinks he enables town. So he seems to have painted a target on his back more than anything else. If enabled players don't know they are enabled, this new information doesn't help them b/c they don't know if it involves them or not. And I don't see how this helps with figuring out time travel puzzles at this point.
sudgy, pps supporting this makes me suspicious of the three of them.
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the only person who's raised my scum flag is pps, but I remember from modding DS9 that pps tends to raise my scum flag day 1 even when I'm the mod and I know for sure he's not scum. So that's probably just a blindspot.
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What exactly, appears scummy in my posts?
My contributions as I see them have been analyzing other people's behavior, asking questions to clarify their statements and generally not committing to anyone being scum so early.
Vague statements like "raises my scum flag" with no substantive reasoning strikes me as the baseless drawing of suspicion scum likes to do.
I suppose I could avoid your "scum flag" if I just lurked and let scum control the game instead?
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There's just a ... tone, to the way you play. It's hard to explain. It's almost like you're trying too hard -- D1 scum can be really gungho and eager to keep the game moving. But I really do think you're most likely to be town right now. I need to re-read this thread when I have more time and look really hard for real clues.
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There's just a ... tone, to the way you play. It's hard to explain. It's almost like you're trying too hard -- D1 scum can be really gungho and eager to keep the game moving. But I really do think you're most likely to be town right now. I need to re-read this thread when I have more time and look really hard for real clues.
What about you trying too hard? Find real clues on the first three pages? Good luck with that.
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There's just a ... tone, to the way you play. It's hard to explain. It's almost like you're trying too hard -- D1 scum can be really gungho and eager to keep the game moving. But I really do think you're most likely to be town right now. I need to re-read this thread when I have more time and look really hard for real clues.
What about you trying too hard? Find real clues on the first three pages? Good luck with that.
Honestly as day 1s go, as people have pointed out, this one's pretty meaty. I think it's a matter of re-reading it through different hypothetical lenses and seeing if you gain any insights. Sure it's going to be a lot of guesswork, but you have to try.
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There's just a ... tone, to the way you play.
It's the horns on my avatar...
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Posting to remind myself that I'm in this game. My mobile is at 7%, but I'll have it charged by the time I get off work tonight. I'll read through everything then.
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Hi Galz!
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Looked it up. Galzria claimed b/c he thought maybe town should lynch him, just in case he enabled a scum power. ashersky says his claim is along those same lines, but then he thinks he enables town. So he seems to have painted a target on his back more than anything else. If enabled players don't know they are enabled, this new information doesn't help them b/c they don't know if it involves them or not. And I don't see how this helps with figuring out time travel puzzles at this point.
sudgy, pps supporting this makes me suspicious of the three of them.
I'm following how you would suspect supporters since sudgy and I may be scum happy with the fact a Townie has a put target on his own back. But you suspect all 3 of us? Why would you suspect ash of being scum for making himself a target? As I understand it that would be terrible scum play and is the core reason I think it isn't a bad play to make. It offers me clarity as to who might be my Town ally since I seriously doubt scum would be so stupid as to make this particular claim. No one else has the convenience of being mod-confirmed Town like you so providing information that can be directly used to corroborate a person strikes me as pro-town, I mean, Mafia already knows for certain who is Town (unless we have another faction amongst us).
It sounds like to me you want your cake and to eat it to; that you feel there may be some sort of foul play involved but then you want to implicate everyone surrounding it when it makes no good sense for all 3 persons in this interaction to be suspect unless you think you've identified the scum team... which is patently terrible D1 play... especially for the IC, whose observations are naturally given heavier weight since there is no concerns of ulterior motive.
I disagree that scum wouldn't claim enabler. And I don't see why people are saying that. They would never be found out until they themselves were killed. Even if another enabler comes to light, there could easily be 2, like in MC.
ashersky is saying town used the enabler role well in MC, but that isn't true. It allowed faust to fake-claim enabler and not get lynched. It did give Galzria practically IC status, and maybe THAT is what ashersky wants.
Truthfully identifying himself as enabler, unless he is bulletproof or something like that, puts the PR's at risk unnecessarily.
I'm seeing a number of people who are very good players saying things that seem really illogical to me - PPS and ashersky in particular. And Walrus to an extent too.
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I meant to say this before: DO NOT LIE AS TOWN!!.
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Don't forget, town LOST in Modern Community.
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I also want to point out that what I said about Enablers in M31 applies here too: For all we know, there might be a SK or two scum factions in this game. If that's the case, claiming Enabler as scum is a terrible move to make, because it makes you a premier target for the other faction.
Which also makes it a terrible move as town.
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unvote
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That's exactly it! If ash is really sure he's a town enabler ... why would he claim that? If he's right and scum shoots him in the night, we lose him and a power role. If scum DOESN'T shoot him then we have to ask ... why? Is it because they think they're the ones who are enabled?
Enablers, if they work how I assume, are really interesting in a time travel game, am I right? Say ashersky is a doctor enabler and he survives the night, and someone else survives the night because they were doctored. If a time travelling mafioso changes night one so that ashersky dies, the doctor is disabled and someone else dies too. And if that person was supposed to do something the following ngiht ....
this is all going to get very confusing possibly.
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I think you have it right. If someone dies, though, I think any actions they performed in the future still happen. Is that right, Voltaire?
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Actions performed in the future relative to the player's own timeline do not happen. Actions performed in the future relative to the game do happen. Examples of each, in order:
1. If a player who can time-travel travels on N2 to N3 and performs an action and then dies on N1, their action on N3 will not take place, as it was in the future relative to their own time-stream.
2. If a player who can time-travel travels on N1 to N3 and performs an action and then dies on N2, their action on N3 will still take place, as it was in the past relative to their own time-stream.
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Okay, that clarification from Voltaire really helped me to get what we're looking at here.
Also, EFHW's comments about enablers has clarified some things for me.
I should point out that I have no idea what happened in Modern Community (maybe I can read up on it). Nor have I ever seen the enabler role in a game. I just came out of RMM11 where having information on the table was very beneficial to Town and provided very little benefit to scum so I interpreted the revelation as pro-town. After EFHW's analysis of it I see how it really generates WIFOM and if ashersky is Town it wasn't such a pro-town move after all.
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I'm with PPS. If someone could summarize the enabler role and what happened in Modern Community that would be helpful.
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I'm with PPS. If someone could summarize the enabler role and what happened in Modern Community that would be helpful.
I can summarize the MC enablers, as they are sort of an invention of mine (and yuma).
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I understand and agree with jo's #138 and #140 about pps.
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Galzria and Archetype were both enablers. One enabled strongman kills and one enabled ninja kills, both scum-only powers. If they died, scum actually lost powers.
The catch in that game was that I redacted the enabled powers from the town PMs, so Galz and Arch did NOT know what they enabled, just that they enabled something. The PMs did not give an indication as to the power which was enabled, or if it was more likely town or scum. Both enablers were town, both enabled players were scum.
Galzria claimed on D1 and basically played the role how I thought was optimal. Arch did not play the role optimally and was able to be manipulated by scum!faust, who also was able to draw some incorrect conclusions for town that made people suspect him less after Arch flipped town.
Further on that conclusion thing -- there was a lot of theory talk on whether the mods would include cross-faction enabling or not. Enabled scum flipped first (Enabled Ninja shraeye NKed on N1 by the Vig). Galz had claimed on D1 to enable something. Arch claimed later as an enabler on D2, and was lynched for it. Right before arch's lynch, at the end of D2, faust claimed to be enabled, and that he was probably enabled by town!Galz, so scum!shraeye must be enabled by scum!Arch. It worked to get the mislynch, and yet no one turned around to look at faust's reasoning.
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Oh, and both scum knew they were enabled, so they had to actively think about the possibility that they could kill or lynch away their own powers.
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Big differences here:
--I know what I enable, and I can surmise its usage, and the likelihood that it is a power held by town.
--My PM is ambiguous enough to make me pretty sure more than one other player is enabled by me.
--My PM leads me to believe that enabled players are not informed that they are enabled.
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I still don't understand why we need to know all this. Surely claiming that you enable Town makes you a target for scum?
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I still don't understand why we need to know all this. Surely claiming that you enable Town makes you a target for scum?
Well, yes. Then again, if they think they'll lose something they need by killing me, they might think twice.
Or, you know, I could be saved. Or someone goes back in time and brings me back to life. There are a lot of options here, and I think it's not going to help town for you to force it all out into the open.
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...but if you say its likely a power held by Town, why wouldn't scum shoot you?
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...but if you say its likely a power held by Town, why wouldn't scum shoot you?
WIFOM. Scum could have the power, technically, in specific cases. I think on D2 we'll know for sure.
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...but if you say its likely a power held by Town, why wouldn't scum shoot you?
WIFOM. Scum could have the power, technically, in specific cases. I think on D2 we'll know for sure.
Fair enough. Unvote. I think that if ash does enable Town, he'll be dead tonight. If he lives then I guess he enables scum. Or scum thinks he enables scum. Or whatever. WIFOM. I'm willing to give him a pass for D1, but I'll be looking at him harder on D2.
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Idk. Ash's play makes zero sense to me as a pro-town play.
It does make sense as a scum play, though admittedly a maverick one.
Ash is not dumb.
vote: ashersky
I'm out for a couple of hours, maybe back at 10, 11.
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I'll Unvote my ash vote, as it was mainly RVS. I think ash is slightly more likely to be town instead of scum in this case, but not by much.
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Dumb play or not, that's an opinion. I think it is the right move as enabler.
True, I'm usually a proponent of more claims than not overall, as I think honest claims help town much more than withholding information when looked at in a vacuum.
A mafia game isn't a vacuum, though, and there are repercussions to everything. Worst case here, I'm NKed tonight. I think the information this puts into the game, especially in a closed RMM setup, is absolutely useful and helpful to town.
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...but if you say its likely a power held by Town, why wouldn't scum shoot you?
WIFOM. Scum could have the power, technically, in specific cases. I think on D2 we'll know for sure.
Fair enough. Unvote. I think that if ash does enable Town, he'll be dead tonight. If he lives then I guess he enables scum. Or scum thinks he enables scum. Or whatever. WIFOM. I'm willing to give him a pass for D1, but I'll be looking at him harder on D2.
This qoute sounds like scum planning to not NK Ashersky, thus lining up a D2 mislynch.
vote: Archetype
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Are you serious.
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Are you serious.
Yep! Vote: Archetype
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Are you serious.
Yes,
It is not RVS.
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But really, I can't make one post without being voted for.
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But really, I can't make one post without being voted for.
Vote: Archetype
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Better unvote.
Don't know what to make of the claim yet. Never played with an enabler before. Also a few of you are new to me, and this setup is new to me. I will need to reread the setup and what is going on more carefully now that I have some more time. Just wanted to get my rvs vote of since so many people are voting archetype.
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Archetype has five votes plus 2.7 makes six, with no explanations from anyone? This needs be remedied. Where are the protests from everyone else?
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...but if you say its likely a power held by Town, why wouldn't scum shoot you?
WIFOM. Scum could have the power, technically, in specific cases. I think on D2 we'll know for sure.
Fair enough. Unvote. I think that if ash does enable Town, he'll be dead tonight. If he lives then I guess he enables scum. Or scum thinks he enables scum. Or whatever. WIFOM. I'm willing to give him a pass for D1, but I'll be looking at him harder on D2.
This qoute sounds like scum planning to not NK Ashersky, thus lining up a D2 mislynch.
vote: Archetype
That is hugely speculative. He didn't say anything ashersky hasn't already said himself.
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Ok, Jimmmmm was on Arch already and 2.7 says his vote was RVS. Still ...
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vote count please!
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Holy christ.
First off, in case Robz is in the game, 8) 8) 8).
I'm really intrigued by the enabler claim. I think it will prove, due to the (likely?) existence of a time travel mechanic, to have been a good idea.
Mentioning claims, in case somebody can prevent this, I will become a Tree Stump at the beginning of D2. I don't know if that will be mod-confirmed, but as I won't be able to vote as a Tree Stump it could presumably be tested that way (and I won't count as a living player).
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Man, I just don't get either of these claims. They both seem to give more info to scum than we should be giving them.
(Hey! I'm a town enabler! Shoot me!)
(Hey! Starting day2 I won't do anything! Better not waste your kill on me night 1!)
I mean, it's definitely possible that there's more than meets the eye in both claims, but on the surface they just look like giving scum too much info without really helping town.
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Man, I just don't get either of these claims. They both seem to give more info to scum than we should be giving them.
(Hey! I'm a town enabler! Shoot me!)
(Hey! Starting day2 I won't do anything! Better not waste your kill on me night 1!)
I mean, it's definitely possible that there's more than meets the eye in both claims, but on the surface they just look like giving scum too much info without really helping town.
Or you are just looking at it from a scum perspective because you are scum, and just trying to complain to seem towny.
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Man, I just don't get either of these claims. They both seem to give more info to scum than we should be giving them.
(Hey! I'm a town enabler! Shoot me!)
(Hey! Starting day2 I won't do anything! Better not waste your kill on me night 1!)
I mean, it's definitely possible that there's more than meets the eye in both claims, but on the surface they just look like giving scum too much info without really helping town.
Or you are just looking at it from a scum perspective because you are scum, and just trying to complain to seem towny.
I agree with nkirbit. I don't see a reason why either claim helps Town more than scum.
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Vote Count 1.2
sudgy (1): ashersky
ashersky (1): jotheonah
Archetype (4): Jimmmmm, faust, xeiron, sudgy
Not voting (8): 2.7..., Archetype, chairs, EFHW, Galzria, nkirbit, pingpongsam, Walrus
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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vote: xeiron Who can guess why?
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Man, I just don't get either of these claims. They both seem to give more info to scum than we should be giving them.
(Hey! I'm a town enabler! Shoot me!)
(Hey! Starting day2 I won't do anything! Better not waste your kill on me night 1!)
I mean, it's definitely possible that there's more than meets the eye in both claims, but on the surface they just look like giving scum too much info without really helping town.
Or you are just looking at it from a scum perspective because you are scum, and just trying to complain to seem towny.
I agree with nkirbit. I don't see a reason why either claim helps Town more than scum.
I agree that ashersky's claim is scummy. Chairs gives me more of a null read. It's easily confirmable, while ashersky's isn't.
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I can promise that I thought long and hard during N0 about the potential of claiming D1 and see it as ultimately a pro-Town move.
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I've contemplated the ash claim in light of EFHW's comments and with the additional consideration of ashersky's latest rationalization and I think he's a decent D1 lynch regardless of his alignment unless one of our time traveling power roles is truly enabled by him at which point it's terrible.
The racing Archetype wagon, however, should present a better profile of scum activity.
I thought the hopping was more suspicious but then EFHW gets a pass and 2.718 seems to just be clearing his obvious RVS in light of a real wagon forming.
So, Jo, why are you picking xeiron out of the remainders?
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I can promise that I thought long and hard during N0 about the potential of claiming D1 and see it as ultimately a pro-Town move.
If Town, I think it was the right move. But could still be a decisive one as scum. EFHW (or ashersky at this point) is a likely NK target, so I disagree about it "lowering scum's NK choices". I'm not sure I'm willing to give you a free pass for today though.
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I can promise that I thought long and hard during N0 about the potential of claiming D1 and see it as ultimately a pro-Town move.
If Town, I think it was the right move. But could still be a decisive one as scum. EFHW (or ashersky at this point) is a likely NK target, so I disagree about it "lowering scum's NK choices". I'm not sure I'm willing to give you a free pass for today though.
I've read it back and forth and I'm not seeing where you pulled that quote from.
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I can promise that I thought long and hard during N0 about the potential of claiming D1 and see it as ultimately a pro-Town move.
If Town, I think it was the right move. But could still be a decisive one as scum. EFHW (or ashersky at this point) is a likely NK target, so I disagree about it "lowering scum's NK choices". I'm not sure I'm willing to give you a free pass for today though.
I've read it back and forth and I'm not seeing where you pulled that quote from.
Nkirbit's "Don't shoot me tonight!"
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Man, I just don't get either of these claims. They both seem to give more info to scum than we should be giving them.
(Hey! I'm a town enabler! Shoot me!)
(Hey! Starting day2 I won't do anything! Better not waste your kill on me night 1!)
I mean, it's definitely possible that there's more than meets the eye in both claims, but on the surface they just look like giving scum too much info without really helping town.
Or you are just looking at it from a scum perspective because you are scum, and just trying to complain to seem towny.
I agree with nkirbit. I don't see a reason why either claim helps Town more than scum.
I agree that ashersky's claim is scummy. Chairs gives me more of a null read. It's easily confirmable, while ashersky's isn't.
I never said that I found Ash's claim to be scummy. In fact, Ash is probably my strongest town read at this point.
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I can promise that I thought long and hard during N0 about the potential of claiming D1 and see it as ultimately a pro-Town move.
If Town, I think it was the right move. But could still be a decisive one as scum. EFHW (or ashersky at this point) is a likely NK target, so I disagree about it "lowering scum's NK choices". I'm not sure I'm willing to give you a free pass for today though.
I've read it back and forth and I'm not seeing where you pulled that quote from.
I think it comes from the idea that his claim helps scum POE who to kill at night. The thinking is they wouldn't kill the tree stump, because there are probably better options out there.
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I voted ashersky. The archetype wagon, which has scum written all over it, sprung up almost immediately thereafter. Xeiron started it, with the flimsiest of reasons.
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Ok. I don't know what to do with a tree stump. I mean, I could try to dig it up and use the wood to make something that I could sit on. Or I could just sit on the stump as if it were the kind of thing that you are supposed to sit on. But chairs seems like a nice enough guy so no need to preemptively dig up the tree that is about to become a
chairstump (unless someone or something saves it. If that is even possible)
About Ashersky. Assume he is an enabler
If he is Town that enables....
Town. Scum will want to kill him ASAP. He does nothing for them
Scum. Scum will want to keep him alive for a while.
Town and Scum. Interesting if this is the case. I don't think this possibility has been brought up yet. Maybe because I am new to this whole enabler role is the only reason I think it might be able to work like this
If he is Scum that enables....
Town. Odd situation for scum to be in. Especially if he enables a powerful town PR. Would they throw him out there super early to see the general reaction and if he gets lynched town loses that PR? If he doesn't then scum stays alive? I can concieve of a situation where scum could easily push for the lynch of their fellow scum partner if he does enable a powerful town member.
Scum. Really bad claim for scum in this case. they would have discussed possible claiming and shot this down I am pretty sure. But this is Ashersky we are talking about.
Town and Scum. Interesting again. And again, I don't think he would claim.
What Ash himself says:I'm claiming now for a reason. I'm positive, from my role description, that I enabled more than one person. I know what power I enable. I believe that you don't know that you are enabled.
From my PM (specifically the power I enable), it's much more likely I'm enabling town. I can come up with scenarios where I might enable scum as well
Just the way the PM is worded, and the fact that I think I'm enabling more than one player. I just don't see this as a "you are an enabled [power]" type of power.
I'm sure someone could prove this one way or the other, but I don't want to actually out the power itself, or the players holding it, as that would not be good.
I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
Big differences here:
--I know what I enable, and I can surmise its usage, and the likelihood that it is a power held by town.
--My PM is ambiguous enough to make me pretty sure more than one other player is enabled by me.
--My PM leads me to believe that enabled players are not informed that they are enabled.
I still don't understand why we need to know all this. Surely claiming that you enable Town makes you a target for scum?
Well, yes. Then again, if they think they'll lose something they need by killing me, they might think twice.
Or, you know, I could be saved. Or someone goes back in time and brings me back to life. There are a lot of options here, and I think it's not going to help town for you to force it all out into the open.
...but if you say its likely a power held by Town, why wouldn't scum shoot you?
WIFOM. Scum could have the power, technically, in specific cases. I think on D2 we'll know for sure.
So Ash basically says
- I enable multiple people
- Probably town, possibly scum (both? I doubt it but I like the intrigue associated with the idea)
Ash really sounds like he wants people to think he enables town while keeping a backdoor open for scum. Actually, it is really interesting because he makes it sound as if he actually enables a somewhat powerful role. All the hints about knowing stuff definitively D2 make is sound like it could be a something big.
Just thinking aloud mostly this post because I have been pretty quiet and need to share my thoughts rather than be all selfish about it. I mean, the doctor is all about serving and helping other people, and we should all be more helpful because of it. All that to say I do not think I will be supporting an Ashersky lynch D1. I want to at least see what sort of stuff he has to say for himself tomorrow (if he lives that long)
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I like nothing about Ash's claim. If you're going to claim D1, you'd better have a cogent, well-argued case for it being pro-town. He doesn't.
I would be ok with lynching him D1, but I also see the case for waiting a bit.
If he is scum, xeiron is his partner. He did the chainsaw thingy. I think, might be wrong on the lingo, it's been a while, but he started the Archetype wagon to distract from my ashersky vote.
Those are the lynches I support right now.
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I like nothing about Ash's claim. If you're going to claim D1, you'd better have a cogent, well-argued case for it being pro-town. He doesn't.
I would be ok with lynching him D1, but I also see the case for waiting a bit.
If he is scum, xeiron is his partner. He did the chainsaw thingy. I think, might be wrong on the lingo, it's been a while, but he started the Archetype wagon to distract from my ashersky vote.
Those are the lynches I support right now.
I'll vote:xeiron. Same reasons as Jo, mainly. He was quick to accuse. If ash is scum, xeiron would not be the most likely partner. His defense of ash was a little too obvious.
Townreads: 2.7, jotheonah
Scummy: xeiron, ashersky
Null: everyone else
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All of my votes so far have been jokey, but my Vote: xeiron for the same reasons as others isn't.
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I think I believe the stump!claim, just because it's so ridiculous it seems like it's gotta be true. I mean why would you claim that as scum? And it will be verified by tomorrow apparently, so we can check experimentally.
Just did a quick reread, and the one who jumps out as scummiest to me is vote: sudgy. First of all, that boomtown Archetype wagon seemed to me like it possibly had scum on it. Second of all, every post this game sudgy has been reminding us about when and when he's not joking. Maybe he does that normally to some extent. But it just seems very forced here: HAHA I'm voting for the IC...no HAHA don't vote for me it was just a joke...all my other posts were jokes but not this one HAHA!
I'll post reads on other folks later.
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I like nothing about Ash's claim. If you're going to claim D1, you'd better have a cogent, well-argued case for it being pro-town. He doesn't.
I would be ok with lynching him D1, but I also see the case for waiting a bit.
If he is scum, xeiron is his partner. He did the chainsaw thingy. I think, might be wrong on the lingo, it's been a while, but he started the Archetype wagon to distract from my ashersky vote.
Those are the lynches I support right now.
You've been gone awhile. I'm fairly certain there will be nothing whatsoever about my play that you will like, unless you are scum.
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I like nothing about Ash's claim. If you're going to claim D1, you'd better have a cogent, well-argued case for it being pro-town. He doesn't.
I would be ok with lynching him D1, but I also see the case for waiting a bit.
If he is scum, xeiron is his partner. He did the chainsaw thingy. I think, might be wrong on the lingo, it's been a while, but he started the Archetype wagon to distract from my ashersky vote.
Those are the lynches I support right now.
I have the exact opposite view as you, actually.
Scum, more likely than town, are the ones who make sure all their ducks are in a row before a claim. "I'm going to claim X, back it up with Y and Z.." so it looks like their claim was "correct", or whatever people will judge it to be.
I still don't think Ashersky's claim by itself was entirely helpful to town. It's not like he presented us with some astonishing new information that will help us catch scum (at the very least, not today). But, if you examine the claim as a way to kickstart the game, get people voicing real opinions, it's been very successful. We've had real conservation since the first hour of this game, something that often takes a few days to take place. And this conversation is pro-town.
If you look at the claim more as, "What the hell, let's say something to get the game started", instead of "I've analyzed my PM and come to the conclusion that the town needs to know what I know", which I think it is, Ash comes off looking very towny from where I stand.
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Scum wouldn't fake claim without that cogent, well-argued case. (Well, if any scum would, it's Ash.. haha. But I don't think he is). Town is more likely to do so.
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Vote Count 1.3
sudgy (2): ashersky, Walrus
Archetype (3): Jimmmmm, faust, xeiron
xeiron (3): jotheonah, Archetype, sudgy
Not voting (6): 2.7..., chairs, EFHW, Galzria, nkirbit, pingpongsam
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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unvote
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I voted ashersky. The archetype wagon, which has scum written all over it, sprung up almost immediately thereafter. Xeiron started it, with the flimsiest of reasons.
Three RVS-votes, my post, and then two more RVS, including jimm voting twice.
Why is there written scum all over that wagon?
I am also not sure in what degree I started the wagon. I am among the second half of the voters, and Sudgy and jimm who voted after me seems to vote not because of my vote, but because they saw a pontential to make jokes from Archetypes answers.
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I voted ashersky. The archetype wagon, which has scum written all over it, sprung up almost immediately thereafter. Xeiron started it, with the flimsiest of reasons.
Three RVS-votes, my post, and then two more RVS, including jimm voting twice.
Why is there written scum all over that wagon?
I am also not sure in what degree I started the wagon. I am among the second half of the voters, and Sudgy and jimm who voted after me seems to vote not because of my vote, but because they saw a pontential to make jokes from Archetypes answers.
It's hard to classify the 4th, 5th and 6th votes on a wagon as RVS.
2.718 and EFHW RVS'd. I'm still not so sure Jimmmmm was RVS as the 3rd vote in. Your 4th vote was just ambiguous enough to pass as RVS while still getting you in early in case a wagon built which it did and on which you have stayed. If it was so RVS of you why are you still on there?
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Apologies on reread I see you were the 5th vote after faust. And you still claim as the 5th voter you were still just RVSing... despite reinforcing your vote with an "I'm serious"?
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Starting a wagon isn't being the 1st vote on and often not the 2nd when it is D1 RVS. 3rd is arguable but come on, 4th and up is "starting a wagon". You were emphatically interested in seeing a wagon built on Archetype and your standing vote confirms that. faust is the only standing vote that has any solid reasoning behind it. You have provided no basis whatsoever for your vote. What is your interpretation of ashersky's claim with regards to your perception of his alignment?
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Tree stumps.
Even though they are "dead" they could still be useful. Now, chairs, do you know if your alignment will be mod-confirmed when you become a tree stump? because if that is the case, you will be a virtual IC, except you can't vote and are already "dead." However, that might be useful to us to have your reads as an IC. Not so sure that you becoming a tree stump is a terrible thing. I mean, it could even protect you for a while and then maybe there is a role that has the power on N3 or something to bring you back. I wouldn't put it past the setup.
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I voted ashersky. The archetype wagon, which has scum written all over it, sprung up almost immediately thereafter. Xeiron started it, with the flimsiest of reasons.
Three RVS-votes, my post, and then two more RVS, including jimm voting twice.
Why is there written scum all over that wagon?
I am also not sure in what degree I started the wagon. I am among the second half of the voters, and Sudgy and jimm who voted after me seems to vote not because of my vote, but because they saw a pontential to make jokes from Archetypes answers.
You keep using that acronym. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Well, this starts to get fun.
I agree with e (I think?) that chairs' claim is too ridiculous to be fake. But chairs, maybe you could also flavor claim, in case that helps us find a "cure" for you?
I like ash's claim. Maybe I just like people trying out crazy stuff. I think we should let him live at least for today. As he himself says, things might be clearer tomorrow.
pps seems his usual self which always gives me a slightly scummy vibe, but has ended up on the town side in the games I played with him.
I'm still fine with my vote on Archetype as I didn't see any actions scummy enough to make me move my vote. That the wagon on him grew so quickly is interesting, but I don't think it's scum who pushed him. That's by the "early wagons don't succeed"-argument.
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I'm still fine with my vote on Archetype as I didn't see any actions scummy enough to make me move my vote. That the wagon on him grew so quickly is interesting, but I don't think it's scum who pushed him. That's by the "early wagons don't succeed"-argument.
So you're saying that your vote on Archetype was RVS ... but you're not unvoting because no one else is scummy enough? You know you can just unvote without moving your vote, right?
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I'm still fine with my vote on Archetype as I didn't see any actions scummy enough to make me move my vote. That the wagon on him grew so quickly is interesting, but I don't think it's scum who pushed him. That's by the "early wagons don't succeed"-argument.
So you're saying that your vote on Archetype was RVS ... but you're not unvoting because no one else is scummy enough? You know you can just unvote without moving your vote, right?
My vote was not RVS. Other than that, of course I can just unvote, but I think it's good if my vote is out there and causing some interactions.
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I voted ashersky. The archetype wagon, which has scum written all over it, sprung up almost immediately thereafter. Xeiron started it, with the flimsiest of reasons.
Three RVS-votes, my post, and then two more RVS, including jimm voting twice.
Why is there written scum all over that wagon?
I am also not sure in what degree I started the wagon. I am among the second half of the voters, and Sudgy and jimm who voted after me seems to vote not because of my vote, but because they saw a pontential to make jokes from Archetypes answers.
It's hard to classify the 4th, 5th and 6th votes on a wagon as RVS.
2.718 and EFHW RVS'd. I'm still not so sure Jimmmmm was RVS as the 3rd vote in. Your 4th vote was just ambiguous enough to pass as RVS while still getting you in early in case a wagon built which it did and on which you have stayed. If it was so RVS of you why are you still on there?
PPS are you maybe mixing up xeiron and faust? xeiron gave a reason for his vote. faust did not. xeiron said "not RVS", didn't try to pass it off as that. I don't see where faust did, either, actually. I'm concerned you may be scum trying to create confusion.
Also, I never voted for Arch at all. Just sudgy.
I didn't get the jokes re: Jimmmmmm's and sudgy's votes, but now that xeiron mentions it, I can see it's possible. Jimmmmmm and sudgy please clarify why you voted!
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Tree stumps.
Even though they are "dead" they could still be useful. Now, chairs, do you know if your alignment will be mod-confirmed when you become a tree stump? because if that is the case, you will be a virtual IC, except you can't vote and are already "dead." However, that might be useful to us to have your reads as an IC. Not so sure that you becoming a tree stump is a terrible thing. I mean, it could even protect you for a while and then maybe there is a role that has the power on N3 or something to bring you back. I wouldn't put it past the setup.
This is a really good point. We could probably confirm his status D2 by having him vote and seeing if it shows up in the vote count.
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I voted ashersky. The archetype wagon, which has scum written all over it, sprung up almost immediately thereafter. Xeiron started it, with the flimsiest of reasons.
Three RVS-votes, my post, and then two more RVS, including jimm voting twice.
Why is there written scum all over that wagon?
I am also not sure in what degree I started the wagon. I am among the second half of the voters, and Sudgy and jimm who voted after me seems to vote not because of my vote, but because they saw a pontential to make jokes from Archetypes answers.
It's hard to classify the 4th, 5th and 6th votes on a wagon as RVS.
2.718 and EFHW RVS'd. I'm still not so sure Jimmmmm was RVS as the 3rd vote in. Your 4th vote was just ambiguous enough to pass as RVS while still getting you in early in case a wagon built which it did and on which you have stayed. If it was so RVS of you why are you still on there?
PPS are you maybe mixing up xeiron and faust? xeiron gave a reason for his vote. faust did not. xeiron said "not RVS", didn't try to pass it off as that. I don't see where faust did, either, actually. I'm concerned you may be scum trying to create confusion.
Also, I never voted for Arch at all. Just sudgy.
I didn't get the jokes re: Jimmmmmm's and sudgy's votes, but now that xeiron mentions it, I can see it's possible. Jimmmmmm and sudgy please clarify why you voted!
Xeiron's "reason" wasn't a reason as I define a reason. It was a preemptive strike. Preemptive strikes are good for drawing out reactions whereby a reason can be formed. The preemptive strike is not in and of itself a reasoning. Preemptive strikes as a wagon forming vote that remains after the RVS voters rescind look really scummy to me and make good reasons for votes on xeiron which never occured preemptively to begin with.
faust stated that his vote on archetype was due to his perception that ashersky may well be Town and Archetetype was using the claim to get him lynched especially if ashersky does enable Town. Here, Archetype made the preemptive strike on ashersky. faust used reasoning to determine that the behavior deserved a vote. I publicly stated that I understood faust's vote because Archetype was directly confronting what I perceived at the time to be pro-town play.
No, I don't think I'm getting the 2 confused, I think we are reading them entirely differently.
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Vote count please.
Intent to vote for xeiron.
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Nevermind on vote count, I missed the one earlier on page.
vote: xeiron
I think the overall argument for xeiron's lynch is more than reasonable.
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@pps: I do agree, as I said before, that xeiron's vote was poorly justified. I think I get what you are saying about preemptive strike, but I'm not sure. You are saying his vote was a tactic 1. to distract from ashersky and 2. give momentum to an Archetype wagon without giving a different kind of reason. What makes the "warning: he's lining up lynches" reason different from and scummier than other (not very good) reasons he might have given?
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Nevermind on vote count, I missed the one earlier on page.
vote: xeiron
I think the overall argument for xeiron's lynch is more than reasonable.
chairs please say more.
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I'm barely off the first page, but since Ash claimed so early, I'll put down my thoughts now. Some of these may have been addressed further on, but I'd rather not have clouded judgement when expressing myself.
First, the claim:
-- "Enabler, that almost certainly enables town"
This is a very different situation than I had in MC, and I'm not comfortable with the comparisons that Ash draws between the two. I had neither knowledge of the role that I enabled, nor of the alignment of that role. As I was forced to make a guess regarding the alignment of the player whom I enabled, my claiming was not -strictly- bad for town. Rather, to clarify, my death was not strictly bad for town.
By that I mean that there were two situations that I was aware of being possible:
{Me} --- {Scum}
{Me} --- {Town}
Obviously, being town myself in MC, the second situation was a disaster. I was telling scum that not only could they kill me (someone they knew to be town), but in doing so they were effectively taking out a PR. In the first situation however, I felt like I was a detriment to the town to keep alive. I was essentially a VT-, instead of a VT+. My dilemma in MC was that I didn't know which situation I was in.
Now, back to this game. Ash has claimed that, having "created" (first used on f.ds) the role of 'Enabler', he's best equipped to judge how it should be played. He's said that he felt that I played it optimally, and that (Arch?) played it sub-optimally in MC. But our roles in MC, as I have shown above, were very different to what Ash has claimed here. Here, he's claimed to KNOW that he's in situation #2 above. And that leaves me at a loss from a town standpoint... because you're essentially telling scum (who, unless we're dealing with multiple scum, know that you're town) that you control town PR's, and that removing you from the game knocks out those PR's.
So what conclusions do I come to regarding the claim?
Well, there's a few things.
#1. Ash may be lying.
- This could be about what he Enables, who he Enables, or about what his role is entirely. For any number of reasons, he could very well be trying to draw a NK. He hasn't advocated his own lynch, which, given the exact nature of his claim makes sense (compared to me in MC anyway). "Town should never lie" isn't exactly always true. There are times, albeit rare, when that rule can and should be broken. But one must tread VERY carefully in doing so, and put a LOT of thought into it ahead of time.
#2. Ash could be trying to draw night protection, given that he could power multiple roles.
- This is dangerous, as we have an IC in our midst. Although there's an interesting game of 'cat-and-mouse' that could be played with time travel (I need to review how that mechanic works. I haven't looked at it since I /in'd way back when) in that, if scum kills the IC on, say, N1, then a time traveling doctor could go back and save them from N2, and they would be alive again on D3 (I think that's how it works....? Again, I'll need to review). Still, from a Town!Ash perspective, given that he couldn't know that we would have an IC announcement made, any plans he came up with on N0 regarding claiming and option #2 would, I think, be put on hold for at least a little while following the opening flavor while he chewed over the correctness of the claim.
#3. Ash is trying to get scum to WIFOM town.
- This is one I think that he's claimed to be the case, but really feels like a stretch to me. The premise goes, if I'm correct, that "I'm town, and I enable town. Scum want me dead, but they would rather see me lynched then wasted a NK on me. Thus by claiming, I make myself an obvious scum target N1... and in doing so, give them the option to NOT kill me, in the hopes of trying to get me lynched D2 on the theory that 'scum would've killed town!Ash N1, thus Ash's survival must mean he's scum'".
Whew, that's a mouthful. Umm.... maybe? It just feels really, really weak to me. Put another way, if what Ash claims is 100% accurate,and I had that role, then under no circumstances would I EVER, EVER feel that playing to option number 3 here was in ANY way optimal. Ever.
#4. Ash is scum.
- I suppose maybe this falls under #1, but it seems better to give it it's own piece. In the last game I played with Ash, Dynasty Warriors 1, he claimed very early on D1 to help us out with the setup. He took a lot of flak for it, but in general I supported the claim. As an IC myself in that setup, it allowed me to focus my thoughts throughout the game in a "If Ash is town then..." and "If Ash is scum then..." light. Our Vig stepping up to shoot him N1, while also controversial, was terrific. I digress some though - my point is that Ash knows a few things to be true: A) I'm a huge proponent of "solve the setup" Mafia. I think that he generally is as well. B) Ash is constantly aware of his town Meta's. B) While "Solve-the-setup" is one of town's greatest tools, "confuse-the-hell-out-of-town" is one of Scum's. Claiming "Town that Enables Town" is just a hard pill to swallow as being "pro-town" in any way. Thus every instinct in me says "It's not. Ash is trying to pull something". And maybe he is. The problem is... is he scum or town? If scum, he knows this brings attention to himself... but in MC that wasn't a bad thing, as scum had their own "Godfather granter" role... maybe there's something similar here?
I don't know. And point #3 keeps getting away from me because, well, I don't know. I guess the best I can describe my feelings on the claim are... "If 100% accurate, it makes no sense whatsoever from a town standpoint. Thus I'm forced to assume that it isn't true. Given then, that I don't believe the claim for what it is, which part of the claim do I NOT believe most?"
I'm not sure. But I think the 4 options above cover most of the spectrum of my feelings on it.
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What makes the "warning: he's lining up lynches" reason different from and scummier than other (not very good) reasons he might have given?
The substantial lack of evidence. It's one thing to submit to the public the rumination what ashersky might be doing. It's another thing to make it the basis for a momentum vote without prior reasoning to substantiate it. I'm still withholding judgement on xeiron until he can actually respond to some of the discourse surrounding him. I asked him several direct questions this morning and made some pointed allegations while I was at it.
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Galzria, that was a good extrapolation, but missing a conclusion. What does all that say about ash and whether we should lynch him?
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Your mod will be on limited access from now through 12/29. I will be checking in at least twice a day, but vote counts/thread locking/etc. may be delayed. I have not heard from mail-mi regarding his upcoming availability, so if anyone wants to volunteer to help out with vote counts, please PM me.
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Galzria, that was a good extrapolation, but missing a conclusion. What does all that say about ash and whether we should lynch him?
Sorry, that kinda falls under the "I don't know".
I don't believe it's the right play... if only because regardless of his reasons behind the claim, if he is in fact town, then lynching him is probably the worst of any situation. That is, in RMM any mislynch is likely to bad, but if Ash is town then I think he's making it clear that he feels that his lynch would be worse than normal... and I think I'm willing to grant him that.
The other thing I keep thinking (rightly or wrongly), is that I can't recall the last time scum jumped at the first opportunity to fake claim... yet I can come up with countless examples of town claiming (often prematurely) believing that doing so will make them obv!town.
Here... well, I could see scum!Ash playing this way. But for D1 I'm probably willing to give him the benefit of the doubt... which of course means he's likely scum >.> (I'm notoriously bad at reading Ash).
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I didn't get the jokes re: Jimmmmmm's and sudgy's votes, but now that xeiron mentions it, I can see it's possible. Jimmmmmm and sudgy please clarify why you voted!
Not RVS but not "We must lynch this guy now!" Somewhere in the middle. Arch has seemed slightly scummy to me. I'm well aware that Arch always seems scummy. But I do believe that early Day 1 wagons are a fine and useful tool for Town.
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It's nice to have Galz back in a game.
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Starting a wagon isn't being the 1st vote on and often not the 2nd when it is D1 RVS. 3rd is arguable but come on, 4th and up is "starting a wagon". You were emphatically interested in seeing a wagon built on Archetype and your standing vote confirms that. faust is the only standing vote that has any solid reasoning behind it. You have provided no basis whatsoever for your vote. What is your interpretation of ashersky's claim with regards to your perception of his alignment?
I am leaning town on Ashersky, and think we should not lynch him today. Otherwise, I am not drawing any conclutions about him.
About my vote for Archetype. I gave a reason. Not a strong reason, I will not pretend it was, but still a reason.
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I didn't get the jokes re: Jimmmmmm's and sudgy's votes, but now that xeiron mentions it, I can see it's possible. Jimmmmmm and sudgy please clarify why you voted!
It was mainly a joke, but I like making big wagons early on (see Toy Story for that).
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I voted ashersky. The archetype wagon, which has scum written all over it, sprung up almost immediately thereafter. Xeiron started it, with the flimsiest of reasons.
Three RVS-votes, my post, and then two more RVS, including jimm voting twice.
Why is there written scum all over that wagon?
I am also not sure in what degree I started the wagon. I am among the second half of the voters, and Sudgy and jimm who voted after me seems to vote not because of my vote, but because they saw a pontential to make jokes from Archetypes answers.
It's hard to classify the 4th, 5th and 6th votes on a wagon as RVS.
2.718 and EFHW RVS'd. I'm still not so sure Jimmmmm was RVS as the 3rd vote in. Your 4th vote was just ambiguous enough to pass as RVS while still getting you in early in case a wagon built which it did and on which you have stayed. If it was so RVS of you why are you still on there?
I might have worded myself badly. I am not saying my vote was RVS. I am saying the other votes was.
Let me explain what I think of every one of them.
Vote: jotheonah for being new
joth isn't new. He modded mafia V. That makes him old
Well, newly returning. I have played with Jo before.
vote: archetype
Scum caught in a web of lies
Classic RVS.
...
I still don't understand why you claimed. I'm leaning scum, but its a weird claim coming from scum. Especially right of the gate.
Vote:ashersky
Vote: Archetype. Only scum says this.
I took this vote as RVS as jimm had a joking tone to his posts around the time he posted this. He later claim it is a serious vote.
I would love to hear what Galzria thinks of the claim, given that he was the one to claim Enabler D1 in Modern Community.
Until then, vote: Archetype seems like a good idea.
Here faust votes Archetype, without any prior mentioning of him at all. I call that random voting. He later claims that is not the case.
...but if you say its likely a power held by Town, why wouldn't scum shoot you?
WIFOM. Scum could have the power, technically, in specific cases. I think on D2 we'll know for sure.
Fair enough. Unvote. I think that if ash does enable Town, he'll be dead tonight. If he lives then I guess he enables scum. Or scum thinks he enables scum. Or whatever. WIFOM. I'm willing to give him a pass for D1, but I'll be looking at him harder on D2.
This qoute sounds like scum planning to not NK Ashersky, thus lining up a D2 mislynch.
vote: Archetype
My vote.
Are you serious.
Yep! Vote: Archetype
A joke vote by Sudgy.
But really, I can't make one post without being voted for.
Vote: Archetype
Another joke vote. Note that jimm is already voting Archetype.
My main point in answer to jotheonah is to show that there didn't really spring up a wagon starting by me.
It was my vote, and one joke vote, and then one more joke vote that doesn't count because jimm already had his vote on Archetype.
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I like nothing about Ash's claim. If you're going to claim D1, you'd better have a cogent, well-argued case for it being pro-town. He doesn't.
I would be ok with lynching him D1, but I also see the case for waiting a bit.
If he is scum, xeiron is his partner. He did the chainsaw thingy. I think, might be wrong on the lingo, it's been a while, but he started the Archetype wagon to distract from my ashersky vote.
Those are the lynches I support right now.
You are pointing out that xeiron's vote for Archetype came right after your vote for ashersky, but it also came right after Archetype UNvoting ashersky. If ashersky and xeiron are scum partners, why attack the very person who had just decided NOT to vote for ashersky? Also, sudgy had also just unvoted, so the threat to ash was not that great.
166 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=post;quote=328004;topic=9823.50;last_msg=328310)Archetype unvotes ashersky
167 jotheonah votes askersky
168 sudgy unvotes askersky
169 ashersky defends his decision to claim
170 xeiron votes for Archetype.
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Archetype wagon does look a little less scummy on re-read. Give us some guidance, IC.
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A post count would be great, if someone has time. We should take a look at the players with the fewest posts.
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Arch - 17
chairs - 7
sudgy - 8
walrus - 11
xeiron - 9
ashersky - 29
faust - 11
galz - 4
2.7 - 9
EFHW - 24
PPS - 18
nkirbit - 7
joth - 20
yuma - 5 (for comparison)
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Looks like 11 and under is the low half.
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Archetype wagon does look a little less scummy on re-read. Give us some guidance, IC.
Trying to sheep the IC? Scumtell. Vote: jotheonah
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Nevermind on vote count, I missed the one earlier on page.
vote: xeiron
I think the overall argument for xeiron's lynch is more than reasonable.
Saying something like this so early into the game is very strange.
Above that, considering chairs, his claim to become a tree stump might be correct and he could still be scum. Scum tree stump seems less bastardly to me than town tree stump anyway.
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Nevermind on vote count, I missed the one earlier on page.
vote: xeiron
I think the overall argument for xeiron's lynch is more than reasonable.
Saying something like this so early into the game is very strange.
Above that, considering chairs, his claim to become a tree stump might be correct and he could still be scum. Scum tree stump seems less bastardly to me than town tree stump anyway.
I disagree; in my opinion scum tree stump is Bastard bait.
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chairs, I have previously asked you to flavor claim; did you not see that or did you see it and decide not to do it?
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Also, is your alignment releaved once you become stumped? That seems to happen sometimes. Is your transformation permanent?
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Nevermind on vote count, I missed the one earlier on page.
vote: xeiron
I think the overall argument for xeiron's lynch is more than reasonable.
Saying something like this so early into the game is very strange.
Above that, considering chairs, his claim to become a tree stump might be correct and he could still be scum. Scum tree stump seems less bastardly to me than town tree stump anyway.
I disagree; in my opinion scum tree stump is Bastard bait.
chairs, since you are here, can you answer my question and respond to faust's comment about your vote?
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Archetype wagon does look a little less scummy on re-read. Give us some guidance, IC.
Trying to sheep the IC? Scumtell. Vote: jotheonah
ICs are natural leaders. Why shouldn't we trust the one person we can trust? It would be different if that were my only post, but I think I've been sheeping along pretty solidly.
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I meant to say playing there. Not sheeping. Not a sheep. Bah.
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Arch - 17
chairs - 7
sudgy - 8
walrus - 11
xeiron - 9
ashersky - 29
faust - 11
galz - 4
2.7 - 9
EFHW - 24
PPS - 18
nkirbit - 7
joth - 20
yuma - 5 (for comparison)
Wait, I'm playing right?
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chairs, I have previously asked you to flavor claim; did you not see that or did you see it and decide not to do it?
I did not see it, but I don't see the reason behind it.
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Also, is your alignment releaved once you become stumped? That seems to happen sometimes. Is your transformation permanent?
I don't know if my alignment is revealed. I assumed I would "flip" like dying. I assume that the transformation is permanent, but given the time travel mechanic there's a possibility that someone can somehow prevent/delay it, I suppose.
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chairs, I have previously asked you to flavor claim; did you not see that or did you see it and decide not to do it?
I did not see it, but I don't see the reason behind it.
I don't know the flavor that well, but I thought maybe someone could tell us if your claim makes sense flavor-wise.
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Nevermind on vote count, I missed the one earlier on page.
vote: xeiron
I think the overall argument for xeiron's lynch is more than reasonable.
chairs please say more.
EFHW, is this the question? I don't really have anything to add. He's a lynch option that both looks viable and I think is less likely to be a mislynch than other choices that have been made.
However, if Galz isn't V/LA we should really consider ye ol' lurker lynch.
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chairs, I have previously asked you to flavor claim; did you not see that or did you see it and decide not to do it?
I did not see it, but I don't see the reason behind it.
I don't know the flavor that well, but I thought maybe someone could tell us if your claim makes sense flavor-wise.
If I survive to D2, I will happily claim my flavor.
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No access until further notice.
Managed to get a little time. I'll have no access until Monday at the earliest.
No idea whats going on in the game, but very sorry to everyone. I'll make an effort to stay up to date when i get back.
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I'm back with a reads post, as promised. I was going to do this last night but I passed out like an old man!
Archetype: I have a tough time reading this guy, and apparently he will post more starting soon. Obviously the most notable thing is the wagon that ran up on him. I admit that when I first saw his "If ash doesn't get killed N1 -> we can lynch him!" post, I too thought that it looked pretty scummy. But then that "jokey" wagon ran up on him frighteningly fast, and while I believe most of that wagon is jokey, I do think it's likely there's scum on there. So I end up on null-to-scummy on Arch.
chairs: Has got the whole stump!claim thing going on. As I said, I believe it for now, and it's obviously something we should test tomorrow if he's still alive.
sudgy: Still a scumread. Sparse, contentless posts that are quick to point out how jokey they are.
Walrus: Practically an IC at this point
Jimmmmm: Relatively active, relatively short, pointed posts, often phrased as questions. I don't know Jimmmmm very well, but this basically matches up with what I expected...I'll say null-to-town for now.
xeiron: A few people voted for him. But honestly I'm not seeing a whole lot there. As I said, I actually *agreed* with his initial allegation against Archetype, and then some other people glommed on the wagon just to be "funny". So I like the fact that he was actually trying to scumhunt, and I don't blame him for the Archetype vote. I'm going to say town read on xeiron for now.
ashersky: A lot has been said about him and his claim. It's a tricky spot, but if I had to guess I would still lean town. I was only half-joking about that time travel plan, you know, I think it might be possible to actually kajigger something like that.
faust: Seems relatively towny to me. This guy seems to get mislynched a lot lately. I'm not saying you should discount a scumread on him if you have one. But I do think that from what I've seen, a good way to smell a D1 mislynch is if it seems too "easy". We should have to fight for a lynch, because scum will do their best to fight against it. The easy compromises too often flip town. Anyway that was a bit of a tangent, but I bring it up because I feel faust has fallen victim to this a lot.
Galzria: Currently lost in the Delta quadrant. He was able to use an unstable micro-wormhole to make contact with Earth for 86 seconds, but so far regular communication has been impossible. Too little data to go by, although I did get a good feeling from his one substantial post.
e: Not as active as I would have expected. He has one big, long, quotey, e-ish post about the setup, but that's really it. Idk, doesn't feel quite right...I'll say mild scum read here.
EFHW: Literally an IC at this point
PPS: I really want to say town read for his high level of activity and discussion. But am I remembering correctly that in Monster Madness Mafia, he was scum, right? And he had me completely fooled, because he was similarly active. So he had me really fooled there, but that game didn't go on for very long, and maybe he was just good at scum. Let's say mild town read.
nkirbit: Among the lurkiest, first of all, although that by itself could go either way. Something about it doesn't quite add up for me either...he expresses doubt about the claims a lot, he says "could be town ash, could be scum ash", and then goes to ash being his top town read the next day, after ash calls him potentially scummy. His longest post is whether scum would prepare a rationale for a claim, but that sort of seems like the sort of thing scum would think about. So I could see scum here I guess.
jotheonah: Quite active, although some of his posts are a little fluffy. Null read I guess, with an edge towards town.
I meant to say playing there. Not sheeping. Not a sheep. Bah.
SHEEPSLIP?!?!?!?!? :P
So I guess at the end of the day that leaves me with sudgy and nkirbit as top scumreads. In fact, I'll go ahead and vote: nkirbit
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Archetype wagon does look a little less scummy on re-read. Give us some guidance, IC.
Trying to sheep the IC? Scumtell. Vote: jotheonah
ICs are natural leaders. Why shouldn't we trust the one person we can trust? It would be different if that were my only post, but I think I've been sheeping along pretty solidly.
Because, if everyone waits for the IC to lead, we don't have much to analyze. Moreover, hiding behind the IC's opinion can be a good way to avoid having to take positions on your own.
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His longest post is whether scum would prepare a rationale for a claim, but that sort of seems like the sort of thing scum would think about. So I could see scum here
Galzria's longest post, which you said gave you a good feeling, contained exactly this sort of analysis as well. What's with the inconsistency?
And thinking about whether a claim makes sense from scum is important. Sometimes it obviously doesn't. And if you can verify a claim as true, or make an argument that it probably is, it's important to know you can trust that player. Sometimes claims don't make sense for scum to make any sense.
As for the archetype wagon.. I don't think it's particularly scum driven. I am more suspicious of those heaping suspicion on those on the archetype wagon
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In fact, walrus' inconsistency between finding me scummy for doing something while finding Galzria towny for doing the same thing is enough for me to vote: walrus
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Sorry - It's been a busy day. Appreciate the detailed post from Walrus, would love to see that from others. Especially Jimmmmm and 2.7 and nkirbit, who have been among the least active.
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OMGUS much?
Galzria had been MIA for like, 10 days. The "good feeling" I got when I saw his post was more like, yay, Galz is back, we can expect some juicy Galz-level analytical posts coming soon. If you'll remember, in the SAME SENTENCE I said that he was basically a null read for being so absent. Now you make it sound like I have this amazing town read on him and there's this big inconsistency.
Meanwhile you've been lurking along, and that one post stood out simply because it was so much longer than the others. My vote stands for now.
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Don't count on such a post from me, efhw. I'll comment on things that i think are noteworthy as they come up, but I'm definitely not up for such a re-read. Between being on my phone and having less energy than I'm used to, it's just not going to happen.
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Okay, but it's not even a scummy thing to do, and a point of view I've used in the past. See Lotr 2, where I was basically the only player to correctly identify eevee as town because it was blatantly obvious that what he was doing made no sense as a scum player.
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I have been thinking of Chairs' claim. It is probably true, since the claim can be confirmed tomorrow.
I am not sure what to make of his allignment, though. Actuallly I fail to see what a tree stump has do do in a time-travel game at all.
Hopefully, he will flip while becomming stumped. If he does not, I think it is a fair chance he is scum. Or it may mean he can be somehow destumped later.
Anyway I think Chairs is a poor lynch for today since there is a possibility he might flip tomorrow.
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Vote Count 1.4
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, xeiron
xeiron (4): jotheonah, Archetype, sudgy, chairs
jotheonah (1): faust
nkirbit (1): Walrus
Walrus (1): nkirbit
Not voting (5): 2.7..., ashersky, EFHW, Galzria, pingpongsam
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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I tried to post earlier today, but apparently it got lost in the ether. Basically I'm convinced by efhw and walrus that xeiron isn't such a great lynch today. But I also feel good about vote: nkirbit instead.
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Just finished driving home. 13 hours in the car is a long way. I haven't been the most active, but what has been going on I have commented on. I have put out thoughts on the Ash claim and the Chairs claim. I haven't put out any reads yet to say people are scum/town because I have been withholding that judgement for a bit as I take in the setup/claims and especially the new people that I am playing with. EFHW, Galz, Nkirbit, PPS, Jotheonah, and xeiron are all new to me.
A few quick reads-
chairs- town. A scum stump really does seem bastard. And if he was lying about becoming a stump that is easy enough to figure out and lynch him for that later. Not lynching today
Ashersky- unsure alignment. An enabler (claimed not confirmed, but why claim something you are not that early). He seems to think that he enables some town role that will be noticeable to him after N1 happens. I am willing to let him live a day because he is fun to play with and does all sorts of fun crazy stuff. However, unless he tells a good tale tomorrow (i.e. a believable story with a strong town narrative), he will be my first lynch candidate.
Joth- Has been active and helpful. Don't want to lynch
Galzaria- hasn't posted much but a very nice post when he did post. Don't want to lynch
xeiron- I don't see anything wrong with his play so far. He saw Archetype post something he saw as scummy. voted him. Defended himself when pressed with a good case that caused the people voting him to see him as less scummy. (Jotheonah said the Arch wagon looked less scummy) So not a scum read here
Archetype- He gave me a town read. obv!town
Walrus- walrus summary post seems like the walrus I know (which is not saying much because I have only played with him in one ongoing game).
I will get a more detailed post out by Monday, but my posting might not be as consistent D1 as what people may have seen in other games since I am with my family on vacation right now.
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Just finished driving home. 13 hours in the car is a long way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWewDD1Gpg4
see 0:45 the relevant portion
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nkirbit's response doesn't sit well with me, either but it is plain old OMGUS on it's face and I have no meta to cross-reference the guy. Walrus' post seems typical but I've got no scum meta on him. I'm chalking that particular interaction up to a testy feud.
xeiron responded to his pressure in a non-scummy sort of way but then, xeiron is one of the stronger players I've encountered. I still give him a null to mild scum read. The fact that he carries the current wagon offsets that a lot.
faust's vote on joth came off scummy but he's not pressing it. faust reads scum to me very easily even when I was Mafia and knew he wasn't scum he still felt scummy. I would be inclined to sheep votes on faust because I am easily led to believe his activity is scum. I was certain he was scum in RMM11 and he wasn't and our incorrect reads on each other were nearly a critical miss for Town. I'll just call hm null for now.
ashersky, hmmm, comes out and claims for immediately polarizing reactions which is great play regardless of alignment. Let's the reactions stall out and refuses to post his reads on them. hard to tell but it does appear to be more and more a scum ploy to control the game but to not appear to be trying too hard. If I pulled that as Town I think I would be more involved in filtering the reactions and continue to press my angles. It feels like maybe a scum ash overplayed his hand and wants other activity to distract from that. I'm in the camp that says give it a day to see where it goes but that may well be playing into his scum plan so I'm torn here.
Archetype caught quite a lot of early heat for relatively innocuous behavior. Initially this looked to be scum driven but as the pressure on him has alleviated it looks more like RVS gone awry. As to reading him Town/scum well, that he goes V/LA at such a crucial point is difficult for me. If pressed to choose between Arch/ash for the 1 day pass I'd for sure give it to Arch. slight town read here.
jotheonah. mostly town reads on him right up until he voted nkirbit. Seems innocuous but on further review it looks more like sheeping and if a scum walrus was using an absent nkirbit as an easy target and nkirbut presents a weak OMGUS response jo seems the type to subtly add weight to the votes as scum partner. It's not terrible Town play, either though. We need something better than that out of nkirbit. so jo downgraded from Town to null for now.
I have a hell of a time reading chairs. My experience is chairs makes poor scum and great town. In that light the stump claim falls either way. Both of the claims in this game are effectively requests to live another day. Definitely willing to give the pass here more so than on the ash claim.
My meta on Jimmmmm is very limited but my thoughts on his playstyle is that he plays a safe, analytical game that provides great reads for Town in the wake of his death and leaves scum partners safe when he flips for the dark side. I want to see a more proactive Jimmmmm because his grasp of the big picture is solid and I think his contributions can be real assets. That he is not so present lends a slight scum tinge to him currently. That he remains voting Archetype as the result of some RVS is a clear indicator that he isn't actually engaging the game right now. I am going to FoS: Jimmmmm just to elicit a response from him.
2.718 - no meta, still just watching this guy and how he moves. Early RVS has been his only votes. Feeling like he is playing the same Town game I am to this point, that is, non-committal and observant. so, for now, a Town vibe here.
If anyone is placing votes this game it is sudgy. He's everywhere but never sold on his position. This can be good as Town and is often my approach since votes are pressure for responses and to bait scum into additional votes. It's also good scum play. Get in easy and early and then if it builds you don't have to defend the position too hard. ashersky was an easy vote to take. The Arch vote was a direct sheep and then so was the xeiron vote. For now, I'm calling this scum play and feel strongly enough about it to Vote: sudgy.
Galz, Galz, Galz. Like some sage with white beard blowing in the wind he steps in after the dust has begun to settle and issues his inscrutable proclamations and then the hologram become shaky then staticy and then transmission lost. Town, scum, strange and unforseen role limitation? We need more of whatever it is. NULL
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I think it's still too early to give out any significant reads. People I don't want lynched today are ashersky, chairs, Galzria (and me and EFHW obviously). So that already narrows things down a lot. PPS is also someone I think we're better off keeping alive, because of his activity (yes, it reminds me of RMM9 when he was scum, but also of RMM11, in which he was town).
One thing I thought before this game started, but forgot later: I think joth's pre-game post in the locked thread slightly indicates town. Scum would already discuss in their QT at this time. So unvote I guess.
If we had to lynch now I'd probably be up for a lurker lynch. Vote: sudgy seems best there.
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sudgy today reminds me of sk!sudgy in dynasty warriors I.
vote: sudgy.
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A revised and unofficial vote count as there have been some repositions and new votes since the last one:
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, xeiron
xeiron (2): Archetype, sudgy
nkirbit (2): Walrus, jotheonah
Walrus (1): nkirbit
sudgy (3): pingpongsam, faust, chairs
Not voting (4): 2.7..., ashersky, EFHW, Galzria[/color]
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time
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sudgy today reminds me of sk!sudgy in dynasty warriors I.
vote: sudgy.
Can you elaborate? I think this setup very well could contain an SK. What are the parallels?
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(This post is not in response to the votes I got)
I'm going to partially claim. I have been thinking about it, and I think it is in town's best interests.
My role has the "weak" modifier. This means, that when I target somebody at night, if I target the mafia, I die.
Now, this can be used as a cop. Either I announce my target the night before, then we see if I die (but in RMM, it would be hard to know), or if I die somebody can go back in time to save me (a roleblocker could do that).
EFHW, do you think I should announce my target each night?
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(This post is not in response to the votes I got)
I'm going to partially claim. I have been thinking about it, and I think it is in town's best interests.
My role has the "weak" modifier. This means, that when I target somebody at night, if I target the mafia, I die.
Now, this can be used as a cop. Either I announce my target the night before, then we see if I die (but in RMM, it would be hard to know), or if I die somebody can go back in time to save me (a roleblocker could do that).
EFHW, do you think I should announce my target each night?
Unvote.
I think it would be beneficial if you announced your target. But I guess it depends on what role you have. (Weak doctor maybe doesn't want to announce his target because it can't be saved)
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You say this has little to do with the recent votes on you, but why did you wait until you had votes on you to claim this?
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Also, sudgy:
What does your pm say with regards to a sk. Does it mention mafia specifically, or evil in general, or something like that?
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Thanks pps and 2.7 for your posts.
ashersky - are you lurking?
I'm still thinking about sudgy's question re: announcing his target. Others' opinions?
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sudgy today reminds me of sk!sudgy in dynasty warriors I.
vote: sudgy.
Can you be more specific so other people can decide if they agree with you?
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Thanks pps and 2.7 for your posts.
ashersky - are you lurking?
I'm still thinking about sudgy's question re: announcing his target. Others' opinions?
I don't know. If sudgy was a time traveler, it'd be a difficult question to answer. If sudgy travels to scum night 5, dies, and then we lynch scum night 3, does he come back to life? If so, that makes sudgy traveling far in the future and not telling us okay, I guess.
But if he's not going to announce his target, claiming was just poor, right? Sudgy, why would you consider that claim without announcing your target.
Sudgy announcing his target is also very, very manipulatable depending on which prs scum have. If scum have a bus driver, for instance, or some way to manipulate results, sudgy announcing his target could result in disaster.
I lean towards not wanting sudgy to announce a target, but I really really wish he just hadnt claimed in the first place. And people should stop claiming. Look at modern family, where town practically mass claimed and it resulted in scum absolutely destroying town in night actions (killing walrus the night he got a result, knowing exactly when to use both godfather and bulletproof on dsell, etc). Town claiming gave mafia easy choices to manipulate nights, and never helped town at all.. I'm worried that's where we're headed here.
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You say this has little to do with the recent votes on you, but why did you wait until you had votes on you to claim this?
I've been thinking about it.
Also, sudgy:
What does your pm say with regards to a sk. Does it mention mafia specifically, or evil in general, or something like that?
It says anti-town.
Also, if I don't announce my target, and I die, somebody could go back in time and save me (roleblocking me would work, doccing me wouldn't). I forgot to mention that.
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I'm still interested to hear chairs' SK suspicions. This weak role of sudgy's fits well with a SK.
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No, not lurking. Weekend.
It's Monday morning, will catch up and respond accordingly.
On sudgy'sclaim, easily verifiable, once he's dead, but impossible otherwise. Nice for scum, as he can clear his partners at night until he dies, then has Wifom until then.
Also, as chairs mentions, so easily manipulated. Announce town target? Scum kills him to paint a target.
I don't really like the claim. Scum!sudgy likes plans and fake claims, too.
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Thanks pps and 2.7 for your posts.
ashersky - are you lurking?
I'm still thinking about sudgy's question re: announcing his target. Others' opinions?
I say using Sudgy as a cop is probably the best way he can use his role. If he hit scum and die we are way better of if we know who he targeted. The chance of catching scum probably outweights any disadvantages of having scum know who he is going to target.
He can either announce his target beforehand, or give some alternatives tied to his real- and some fake flavornames. So that we will only know who he targeted when he flips.
Exemple:
Say before night: if my flavorname starts with
S - target Archetype
B - target nkirbit
D - target chairs
Now, scum does not know who sudgy will target, and if the day comes and sudgy is dead and flips Susan foreman , we know he targeted Archetype.
If he can timetravel, he should state which night he travels to.
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Archetype wagon does look a little less scummy on re-read. Give us some guidance, IC.
Trying to sheep the IC? Scumtell. Vote: jotheonah
Who is this new Faust? I like it!
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Nevermind on vote count, I missed the one earlier on page.
vote: xeiron
I think the overall argument for xeiron's lynch is more than reasonable.
Saying something like this so early into the game is very strange.
Above that, considering chairs, his claim to become a tree stump might be correct and he could still be scum. Scum tree stump seems less bastardly to me than town tree stump anyway.
I disagree; in my opinion scum tree stump is Bastard bait.
Bastard is a bit harsh, both of you.
Tree stumps are definitely town, in practice, though. They usually cannot be lynched, so it isn't fair to town unless they have an alternate way of killing.
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No access until further notice.
Managed to get a little time. I'll have no access until Monday at the earliest.
No idea whats going on in the game, but very sorry to everyone. I'll make an effort to stay up to date when i get back.
I'd say scummy, but he posted in the VLA thread, right?
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Archetype wagon does look a little less scummy on re-read. Give us some guidance, IC.
Trying to sheep the IC? Scumtell. Vote: jotheonah
ICs are natural leaders. Why shouldn't we trust the one person we can trust? It would be different if that were my only post, but I think I've been sheeping along pretty solidly.
Because, if everyone waits for the IC to lead, we don't have much to analyze. Moreover, hiding behind the IC's opinion can be a good way to avoid having to take positions on your own.
This is correct. The more people get out in front of the IC with reads, the better.
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sudgy today reminds me of sk!sudgy in dynasty warriors I.
vote: sudgy.
Can you elaborate? I think this setup very well could contain an SK. What are the parallels?
Is there a public reason you think that? If so, share.
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Scum might want to kill sudgy during the night if they think he will target town. If they do, Sudgys target will look very sucpicious.
Because of this any watchers or voyeurs among us should strongly consider to target Sudgy, so that they can catch a NK.
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(This post is not in response to the votes I got)
I'm going to partially claim. I have been thinking about it, and I think it is in town's best interests.
My role has the "weak" modifier. This means, that when I target somebody at night, if I target the mafia, I die.
Now, this can be used as a cop. Either I announce my target the night before, then we see if I die (but in RMM, it would be hard to know), or if I die somebody can go back in time to save me (a roleblocker could do that).
EFHW, do you think I should announce my target each night?
You say this has little to do with the recent votes on you, but why did you wait until you had votes on you to claim this?
I've been thinking about it.
Also, sudgy:
What does your pm say with regards to a sk. Does it mention mafia specifically, or evil in general, or something like that?
It says anti-town.
Also, if I don't announce my target, and I die, somebody could go back in time and save me (roleblocking me would work, doccing me wouldn't). I forgot to mention that.
Contradicting yourself much? You explicitly said "the mafia" in your claim. You changed your claim in a subsequent post to "anti-town." Using the article "the" in your first claim is indicative here. It says you have absolute knowledge and not just speculation.
Sloppy fake claim? Lying as town? Both are terrible. The first is more likely, given what your post says about your subconscious and conscious knowledge.
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And I'm caught up.
vote: sudgy
I think he's been caught in his own fake claim web.
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Thanks pps and 2.7 for your posts.
ashersky - are you lurking?
I'm still thinking about sudgy's question re: announcing his target. Others' opinions?
I say using Sudgy as a cop is probably the best way he can use his role. If he hit scum and die we are way better of if we know who he targeted. The chance of catching scum probably outweights any disadvantages of having scum know who he is going to target.
He can either announce his target beforehand, or give some alternatives tied to his real- and some fake flavornames. So that we will only know who he targeted when he flips.
Exemple:
Say before night: if my flavorname starts with
S - target Archetype
B - target nkirbit
D - target chairs
Now, scum does not know who sudgy will target, and if the day comes and sudgy is dead and flips Susan foreman , we know he targeted Archetype.
If he can timetravel, he should state which night he travels to.
I like this. I'll do this.
Also, ash, when I read my PM, I don't try to commit it to memory. I usually think of anti-town and mafia as pretty close to synonymous, even if it's not right. Mafia stuck in my mind when I claimed, then when xeiron asked, I looked at my PM and saw it said anti-town.
When will yuma come here and post his quote about scumslips? ;)
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Vote Count 1.5
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, xeiron
xeiron (2): Archetype, sudgy
nkirbit (2): Walrus, jotheonah
Walrus (1): nkirbit
sudgy (3): pingpongsam, chairs, ashersky
Not voting (4): 2.7..., EFHW, faust, Galzria
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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Thanks pps and 2.7 for your posts.
ashersky - are you lurking?
I'm still thinking about sudgy's question re: announcing his target. Others' opinions?
I say using Sudgy as a cop is probably the best way he can use his role. If he hit scum and die we are way better of if we know who he targeted. The chance of catching scum probably outweights any disadvantages of having scum know who he is going to target.
He can either announce his target beforehand, or give some alternatives tied to his real- and some fake flavornames. So that we will only know who he targeted when he flips.
Exemple:
Say before night: if my flavorname starts with
S - target Archetype
B - target nkirbit
D - target chairs
Now, scum does not know who sudgy will target, and if the day comes and sudgy is dead and flips Susan foreman , we know he targeted Archetype.
If he can timetravel, he should state which night he travels to.
I like this. I'll do this.
Also, ash, when I read my PM, I don't try to commit it to memory. I usually think of anti-town and mafia as pretty close to synonymous, even if it's not right. Mafia stuck in my mind when I claimed, then when xeiron asked, I looked at my PM and saw it said anti-town.
When will yuma come here and post his quote about scumslips? ;)
I don't know. I didn't mention any scumslips, as I haven't seen any. Are you admitting you made one?
Also, emoticon = scum, too.
As for the "I don't memorize my PM" thing, that's just a huge lie. You are quite the PM studier. I know, from modding multiple times.
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Thanks pps and 2.7 for your posts.
ashersky - are you lurking?
I'm still thinking about sudgy's question re: announcing his target. Others' opinions?
I say using Sudgy as a cop is probably the best way he can use his role. If he hit scum and die we are way better of if we know who he targeted. The chance of catching scum probably outweights any disadvantages of having scum know who he is going to target.
He can either announce his target beforehand, or give some alternatives tied to his real- and some fake flavornames. So that we will only know who he targeted when he flips.
Exemple:
Say before night: if my flavorname starts with
S - target Archetype
B - target nkirbit
D - target chairs
Now, scum does not know who sudgy will target, and if the day comes and sudgy is dead and flips Susan foreman , we know he targeted Archetype.
If he can timetravel, he should state which night he travels to.
I like this. I'll do this.
Also, ash, when I read my PM, I don't try to commit it to memory. I usually think of anti-town and mafia as pretty close to synonymous, even if it's not right. Mafia stuck in my mind when I claimed, then when xeiron asked, I looked at my PM and saw it said anti-town.
When will yuma come here and post his quote about scumslips? ;)
I don't think this works, actually. If scum just kills Sudgy, anyone he targets will be under suspicion, even though his death could have been from a NK while targeting a town member.
I agree with Ashersky here. This doesn't feel like a town claim. Suppose Sudgy is a weak doctor, or a weak cop, or something of that sort. I just don't believe that over a matter of days, he sits down and comes to the conclusion that he should claim what he did. It just doesn't make any sense. It's so easily manipulated by scum. If Sudgy says "I'm targeting player X", that's bad, because mafia can kill Sudgy and put player x under suspicion. If Sudgy has some sort of hidden mechanism, well, they can just kill him and hope he landed on a town member (odds are he will, because there's more town!). The hiding situation from Clue only came up because of a very specific set of circumstances, and only worked with hider. This just doesn't work, and doesn't come close to working.
I'm with Ashersky that this is a fakeclaim. The narrative I'm seeing is that Sudgy started to get some pressure, saw the credibility that Chairs and Ashersky had at least somewhat received from claiming, and tried to get a piece of the action.
Maybe Sudgy is town and just made a horrible decision to claim. It's possible, but I hope not. Him coming out and asking about what he should do sort of indicates to me that he really hadn't thought through all the possibilities of his role, because not claiming is just so much blatantly better than claiming that I don't believe that anyone who actually was thinking about it as a weak PR would come to the conclusion Sudgy did. It reminds me of Mail-Mi in Harry Potter.. he was fake-claiming scum who had obviously just not thought through the process of claiming from the view of a town member.
Vote: Sudgy
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sudgy today reminds me of sk!sudgy in dynasty warriors I.
vote: sudgy.
Can you elaborate? I think this setup very well could contain an SK. What are the parallels?
Yeah, I have nothing privately leading me towards this. The time travel mechanic and the fact that it is role MADNESS and we are talking about Voltaire, here, I don't think he could resist. That we got an IC bolsters Town. So I was already contemplating who amongst us might possibly be SK and well, how the heck do you detect an SK during the day, especially D1? Then chairs comes along saying sudgy is looking SKish so I wanted to hear about that, and I still do.
Is there a public reason you think that? If so, share.
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Ash, the "scumslip" was you saying that I said mafia the first time and scum the second time.
I study my PMs not trying to memorize them, but in other ways. I asked Volt what would happen if I got roleblocked or docced, trying to find ways that I could get saved.
I was thinking, someone could go back in time and try to save me. If I get saved, we catch scum. If I don't, I got killed.
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Ash, the "scumslip" was you saying that I said mafia the first time and scum the second time.
That's not a scumslip. A scumslip is accidentally say you are scum, a la Frisk's 0% chance of flipping town.
What you did was an inconsistency to your fake claim that I picked up on.
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Question for the sudgy wagon: why would he be fake claiming right now day one? What's the end game?
I feel like sometimes we get like noob poker players who are excited to catch someone bluffing, and then forget that we also have nothing in our hands, so we can't call it anyway.
So sudgy's claim has some holes in it if he's town ... but what kind of sense does it make if he's scum? He didn't have THAT much pressure on him.
It's not that I'm against the lynch, but I'm a little baffled.
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Question for the sudgy wagon: why would he be fake claiming right now day one? What's the end game?
I feel like sometimes we get like noob poker players who are excited to catch someone bluffing, and then forget that we also have nothing in our hands, so we can't call it anyway.
So sudgy's claim has some holes in it if he's town ... but what kind of sense does it make if he's scum? He didn't have THAT much pressure on him.
It's not that I'm against the lynch, but I'm a little baffled.
If you are giving sudgy that much of a "d1 early claim derp pass" then that runs counter to any suspicion you may have shown about me or chairs.
Sudgy isn't a newb. He's been in like 20 games. He can gambit like anyone.
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Question for the sudgy wagon: why would he be fake claiming right now day one? What's the end game?
I feel like sometimes we get like noob poker players who are excited to catch someone bluffing, and then forget that we also have nothing in our hands, so we can't call it anyway.
So sudgy's claim has some holes in it if he's town ... but what kind of sense does it make if he's scum? He didn't have THAT much pressure on him.
It's not that I'm against the lynch, but I'm a little baffled.
If you are giving sudgy that much of a "d1 early claim derp pass" then that runs counter to any suspicion you may have shown about me or chairs.
Sudgy isn't a newb. He's been in like 20 games. He can gambit like anyone.
It's such a dumb claim for scum though. Even if we bought it, town could have a cop who can just check it at night. No way he gets away with it. And what does he get out of it?
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Are day 1 scum fake claims a part of the F.DS meta now? Because when I left day 1 claims in general were kind of not a thing. ITT we've had 3 without anyone even getting near L1.
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Catching up. Having dinner now, then I'll be back.
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It's such a dumb claim for scum though. Even if we bought it, town could have a cop who can just check it at night. No way he gets away with it. And what does he get out of it?
A cop can't confirm if he's "weak" or not, just if he's scum or not. But that's something that is confirmed by a cop with or without a claim. I don't think your logic applies.
Are day 1 scum fake claims a part of the F.DS meta now? Because when I left day 1 claims in general were kind of not a thing. ITT we've had 3 without anyone even getting near L1.
D1 claims are a thing now, yeah. Well, in closed setups it is. In open/semi-open setups, it is less likely, unless there's a good reason for it (like mine in Dynasty Warriors 1, for example).
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I kind of see what you mean, Joth. Does it make sense coming from scum? A little. I can see it, but it's not obvious.
What's throwing me off though is that it seems to be something that makes absolutely no sense for him to act the way he has as town. When he claimed and asked the question, "Should I say who I'm targeting tonight?", it really did seem to me like he had never even run through the possibility of him announcing his target, scum choosing to NK him, and throwing suspicion on a town member. That's a bad outcome, as Xeiron (I think) pointed out, and it seemed to me like he hadn't run through the pros and cons of him claiming with various plans, which I do think the PR he was claiming to be would do.
As for the scum narrative... we've had a decent amount of day1 claims recently with no pressure, and they almost always come from town member. He could be trying to ride the wave to get some town credibility. I know it's not the strongest scum narrative, but I'm more concerned with the town narrative making zero sense than the scum narrative being overwhelming evidence in this case.
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I was thinking (which I stupidly didn't put in my first post) that, in this game, there might be a way to revive me. I thought this was better than not claiming anything.
If this was a normal game, I probably wouldn't have claimed. But since this is RMM, scum might not want to kill me for being a PR.
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My meta on Jimmmmm is very limited but my thoughts on his playstyle is that he plays a safe, analytical game that provides great reads for Town in the wake of his death and leaves scum partners safe when he flips for the dark side. I want to see a more proactive Jimmmmm because his grasp of the big picture is solid and I think his contributions can be real assets. That he is not so present lends a slight scum tinge to him currently. That he remains voting Archetype as the result of some RVS is a clear indicator that he isn't actually engaging the game right now. I am going to FoS: Jimmmmm just to elicit a response from him.
I appreciate the compliments. I have been kind of making an effort to play less conservatively. Some games I get into early (like Arch's Grimm game) and some I struggle to for whatever reason and this has been one of them. I haven't been that busy, just struggling to get into the game. I'll see what this thing about sudgy is all about.
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Question for the sudgy wagon: why would he be fake claiming right now day one? What's the end game?
I will note that my vote stands against his voting pattern. His claim didn't exist until after my vote. chairs' inclination that he was acting like a SK keeps me interested in my vote because I think it fits the claim perfectly.
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I was thinking (which I stupidly didn't put in my first post) that, in this game, there might be a way to revive me. I thought this was better than not claiming anything.
If this was a normal game, I probably wouldn't have claimed. But since this is RMM, scum might not want to kill me for being a PR.
I have to think that "resurrection" as a concept is too strong or BM for this game. That's just my own opinion.
Going back in time to save someone (i.e., doctor to stop a night kill) is significantly different mechanically from resurrecting someone from death.
The issue I see with your thinking is, if you die from your "weak" modifier, usually a doctor wouldn't protect you. Now, a time traveling JK or RB could block you from performing your action that night, then you wouldn't have died, then you could tell us who you targeted.
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I don't see a good reason for lynching sudgy. Could be a fakeclaim, sure, but could just as well be true. Someone with a Weak modifier is quite likely to go to the grave with a guilty result, and would ideally be able to communicate that information to everyone else. Claiming beforehand can be manipulated, sure, but it's the most obvious way of doing it. I think sudgy should claim who he is going to target, and if he dies we don't assume they are scum unless we can eliminate any other ways he could have been killed.
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I don't see a good reason for lynching sudgy. Could be a fakeclaim, sure, but could just as well be true. Someone with a Weak modifier is quite likely to go to the grave with a guilty result, and would ideally be able to communicate that information to everyone else. Claiming beforehand can be manipulated, sure, but it's the most obvious way of doing it. I think sudgy should claim who he is going to target, and if he dies we don't assume they are scum unless we can eliminate any other ways he could have been killed.
How would you propose we eliminate the possibility that he was:
1) scumteam NK
2) SK NK
3) a different scumteam NK
4) a vig NK
5) busdriven from town to scum
That's just 5 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more ways for the guy to die.
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Thanks pps and 2.7 for your posts.
ashersky - are you lurking?
I'm still thinking about sudgy's question re: announcing his target. Others' opinions?
I say using Sudgy as a cop is probably the best way he can use his role. If he hit scum and die we are way better of if we know who he targeted. The chance of catching scum probably outweights any disadvantages of having scum know who he is going to target.
He can either announce his target beforehand, or give some alternatives tied to his real- and some fake flavornames. So that we will only know who he targeted when he flips.
Exemple:
Say before night: if my flavorname starts with
S - target Archetype
B - target nkirbit
D - target chairs
Now, scum does not know who sudgy will target, and if the day comes and sudgy is dead and flips Susan foreman , we know he targeted Archetype.
If he can timetravel, he should state which night he travels to.
I like this. I'll do this.
Also, ash, when I read my PM, I don't try to commit it to memory. I usually think of anti-town and mafia as pretty close to synonymous, even if it's not right. Mafia stuck in my mind when I claimed, then when xeiron asked, I looked at my PM and saw it said anti-town.
When will yuma come here and post his quote about scumslips? ;)
I don't think this works, actually. If scum just kills Sudgy, anyone he targets will be under suspicion, even though his death could have been from a NK while targeting a town member.
I agree with Ashersky here. This doesn't feel like a town claim. Suppose Sudgy is a weak doctor, or a weak cop, or something of that sort. I just don't believe that over a matter of days, he sits down and comes to the conclusion that he should claim what he did. It just doesn't make any sense. It's so easily manipulated by scum. If Sudgy says "I'm targeting player X", that's bad, because mafia can kill Sudgy and put player x under suspicion. If Sudgy has some sort of hidden mechanism, well, they can just kill him and hope he landed on a town member (odds are he will, because there's more town!). The hiding situation from Clue only came up because of a very specific set of circumstances, and only worked with hider. This just doesn't work, and doesn't come close to working.
I'm with Ashersky that this is a fakeclaim. The narrative I'm seeing is that Sudgy started to get some pressure, saw the credibility that Chairs and Ashersky had at least somewhat received from claiming, and tried to get a piece of the action.
Maybe Sudgy is town and just made a horrible decision to claim. It's possible, but I hope not. Him coming out and asking about what he should do sort of indicates to me that he really hadn't thought through all the possibilities of his role, because not claiming is just so much blatantly bette
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Thanks pps and 2.7 for your posts.
ashersky - are you lurking?
I'm still thinking about sudgy's question re: announcing his target. Others' opinions?
I say using Sudgy as a cop is probably the best way he can use his role. If he hit scum and die we are way better of if we know who he targeted. The chance of catching scum probably outweights any disadvantages of having scum know who he is going to target.
He can either announce his target beforehand, or give some alternatives tied to his real- and some fake flavornames. So that we will only know who he targeted when he flips.
Exemple:
Say before night: if my flavorname starts with
S - target Archetype
B - target nkirbit
D - target chairs
Now, scum does not know who sudgy will target, and if the day comes and sudgy is dead and flips Susan foreman , we know he targeted Archetype.
If he can timetravel, he should state which night he travels to.
I like this. I'll do this.
Also, ash, when I read my PM, I don't try to commit it to memory. I usually think of anti-town and mafia as pretty close to synonymous, even if it's not right. Mafia stuck in my mind when I claimed, then when xeiron asked, I looked at my PM and saw it said anti-town.
When will yuma come here and post his quote about scumslips? ;)
I don't think this works, actually. If scum just kills Sudgy, anyone he targets will be under suspicion, even though his death could have been from a NK while targeting a town member.
I agree with Ashersky here. This doesn't feel like a town claim. Suppose Sudgy is a weak doctor, or a weak cop, or something of that sort. I just don't believe that over a matter of days, he sits down and comes to the conclusion that he should claim what he did. It just doesn't make any sense. It's so easily manipulated by scum. If Sudgy says "I'm targeting player X", that's bad, because mafia can kill Sudgy and put player x under suspicion. If Sudgy has some sort of hidden mechanism, well, they can just kill him and hope he landed on a town member (odds are he will, because there's more town!). The hiding situation from Clue only came up because of a very specific set of circumstances, and only worked with hider. This just doesn't work, and doesn't come close to working.
I'm with Ashersky that this is a fakeclaim. The narrative I'm seeing is that Sudgy started to get some pressure, saw the credibility that Chairs and Ashersky had at least somewhat received from claiming, and tried to get a piece of the action.
Maybe Sudgy is town and just made a horrible decision to claim. It's possible, but I hope not. Him coming out and asking about what he should do sort of indicates to me that he really hadn't thought through all the possibilities of his role, because not claiming is just so much blatantly better than claiming that I don't believe that anyone who actually was thinking about it as a weak PR would come to the conclusion Sudgy did. It reminds me of Mail-Mi in Harry Potter.. he was fake-claiming scum who had obviously just not thought through the process of claiming from the view of a town member.
Vote: Sudgy
My post dissapeared. Lets try again:
I disagree with those of you saying it is bad for town !Sudgy to claim. I think the best way to use a weak role is to use it to check allignments. To use it that way you need to tell town your targets, and that is difficult without claiming.
And I think the plan I came up with can work.
Lets first assume scum will not NK Sudgy. Then Sudgy is effectively a cop, and we know more allignment tomorrow. ( or rather a allignment that is confirmed when sudgy dies).
Because of this, Sudgy will be a high priority nk target. This is good for us because there exists many town roles potential in the game, that wants to target the same person as scum. Doctor, watcher, voyeur, etc.
So if sudgy ends up dead tomorrow, and we know his target, we have information that may help us lych scum. As long as we remember that he could both have been killed by a nk, and by targeting scum, and refrain from drawing conclusions to fast, we can make use of such a situation. Like if we later get extra information from a doctor claiming to have protected Sudgy, thus eliminating the NK option.
My main point is that even though using Sudgys role this way to catch scum is not failproof, it is nowere near useless either.
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I don't see a good reason for lynching sudgy. Could be a fakeclaim, sure, but could just as well be true. Someone with a Weak modifier is quite likely to go to the grave with a guilty result, and would ideally be able to communicate that information to everyone else. Claiming beforehand can be manipulated, sure, but it's the most obvious way of doing it. I think sudgy should claim who he is going to target, and if he dies we don't assume they are scum unless we can eliminate any other ways he could have been killed.
How would you propose we eliminate the possibility that he was:
1) scumteam NK
2) SK NK
3) a different scumteam NK
4) a vig NK
5) busdriven from town to scum
That's just 5 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more ways for the guy to die.
Someone doctoring Sudgy or Sudgy flipping hider would rule out the four first. A watcher or voyeur could confirm/not confirm them. A tracker could confirm/eliminate the fifth.
And because this it a time traveling game there is far more likely that the right role targets the right person to the right time in order to give us important information.
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My post dissapeared. Lets try again:
I disagree with those of you saying it is bad for town !Sudgy to claim. I think the best way to use a weak role is to use it to check allignments. To use it that way you need to tell town your targets, and that is difficult without claiming.
And I think the plan I came up with can work.
Lets first assume scum will not NK Sudgy. Then Sudgy is effectively a cop, and we know more allignment tomorrow. ( or rather a allignment that is confirmed when sudgy dies).
Because of this, Sudgy will be a high priority nk target. This is good for us because there exists many town roles potential in the game, that wants to target the same person as scum. Doctor, watcher, voyeur, etc.
So if sudgy ends up dead tomorrow, and we know his target, we have information that may help us lych scum. As long as we remember that he could both have been killed by a nk, and by targeting scum, and refrain from drawing conclusions to fast, we can make use of such a situation. Like if we later get extra information from a doctor claiming to have protected Sudgy, thus eliminating the NK option.
My main point is that even though using Sudgys role this way to catch scum is not failproof, it is nowere near useless either.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the bolded sentence above.
It is, in fact, easy to do this without claiming. Like, literally, sudgy could have said in his last post of the day "I am targeting X tonight!" and not say why.
Then no one knows he's a weak anything unless he dies, and then we know why he told us who he was targeting.
So no, claiming was not mandatory, preferred, or necessary for his "weak" modifier to be used as an investigatory tool.
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I don't see a good reason for lynching sudgy. Could be a fakeclaim, sure, but could just as well be true. Someone with a Weak modifier is quite likely to go to the grave with a guilty result, and would ideally be able to communicate that information to everyone else. Claiming beforehand can be manipulated, sure, but it's the most obvious way of doing it. I think sudgy should claim who he is going to target, and if he dies we don't assume they are scum unless we can eliminate any other ways he could have been killed.
How would you propose we eliminate the possibility that he was:
1) scumteam NK
2) SK NK
3) a different scumteam NK
4) a vig NK
5) busdriven from town to scum
That's just 5 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more ways for the guy to die.
Someone doctoring Sudgy or Sudgy flipping hider would rule out the four first. A watcher or voyeur could confirm/not confirm them. A tracker could confirm/eliminate the fifth.
And because this it a time traveling game there is far more likely that the right role targets the right person to the right time in order to give us important information.
What?
Okay, someone could doctor sudgy. If sudgy is telling the truth, we wasted the doctor's power. If sudgy is lying, we wasted the doctor's power. BAD.
He didn't claim Hider, so why would you even mention this? Bad.
A watcher would have to watch sudgy's target to see sudgy do anything. A voyeur would confirm someone took an action, but not if that action is weak. Both can be manipulated. BAD.
A tracker couldn't confirm busdriving, as a bus driver switches all actions targeting one person to another person. I think the tracker would see sudgy target the first, but not see that he got results from the second. Bad.
I think time traveling makes it much harder to target correctly, as opposed to the opposite. Yeah, when it's late in the game, sure, but early on? No way.
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Also, just thought of this, but I'm pretty sure if we have two protective roles, we can game the game to auto-win.
Basically, once one dies, the other one time travels to save him. Then, even if that one gets killed, the other saves him. And they just rotate who's alive and who's dead while lynching everyone else.
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I don't see a good reason for lynching sudgy. Could be a fakeclaim, sure, but could just as well be true. Someone with a Weak modifier is quite likely to go to the grave with a guilty result, and would ideally be able to communicate that information to everyone else. Claiming beforehand can be manipulated, sure, but it's the most obvious way of doing it. I think sudgy should claim who he is going to target, and if he dies we don't assume they are scum unless we can eliminate any other ways he could have been killed.
How would you propose we eliminate the possibility that he was:
1) scumteam NK
2) SK NK
3) a different scumteam NK
4) a vig NK
5) busdriven from town to scum
That's just 5 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more ways for the guy to die.
Someone doctoring Sudgy or Sudgy flipping hider would rule out the four first. A watcher or voyeur could confirm/not confirm them. A tracker could confirm/eliminate the fifth.
And because this it a time traveling game there is far more likely that the right role targets the right person to the right time in order to give us important information.
What?
Okay, someone could doctor sudgy. If sudgy is telling the truth, we wasted the doctor's power. If sudgy is lying, we wasted the doctor's power. BAD.
He didn't claim Hider, so why would you even mention this? Bad.
A watcher would have to watch sudgy's target to see sudgy do anything. A voyeur would confirm someone took an action, but not if that action is weak. Both can be manipulated. BAD.
A tracker couldn't confirm busdriving, as a bus driver switches all actions targeting one person to another person. I think the tracker would see sudgy target the first, but not see that he got results from the second. Bad.
I think time traveling makes it much harder to target correctly, as opposed to the opposite. Yeah, when it's late in the game, sure, but early on? No way.
Using a doctor power to guarantee Sudgy is not nightkilled, but killed by targeting scum when we know who he targeted is good use of the doctor role. I rather lynch scum than save a towne any day.
Hider is usually a role with the weak modifier. I consider it possible that sudgy is a hider without him lying.
A voyeur could confirm whether a nk hit sudgy. A watcher could check who targeted sudgy. If none, he probably was not nightkilled.
I thought the tracker got to know sudgy's target after an eventual bus driving, but I might be wrong here.
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Also, just thought of this, but I'm pretty sure if we have two protective roles, we can game the game to auto-win.
Basically, once one dies, the other one time travels to save him. Then, even if that one gets killed, the other saves him. And they just rotate who's alive and who's dead while lynching everyone else.
Because of this i think time traveling protective roles are unlikely.
I think we have time traveling investigative roles instead.
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1) Using a doctor power to guarantee Sudgy is not nightkilled, but killed by targeting scum when we know who he targeted is good use of the doctor role. I rather lynch scum than save a towne any day.
2) Hider is usually a role with the weak modifier. I consider it possible that sudgy is a hider without him lying.
3) A voyeur could confirm whether a nk hit sudgy. A watcher could check who targeted sudgy. If none, he probably was not nightkilled.
4) I thought the tracker got to know sudgy's target after an eventual bus driving, but I might be wrong here.
Let me number these for you.
1) Strongman? Doctor fakeclaim? How about saving, I don't know the IC? We know the IC is town, dude.
2) A "Weak Hider" is insane. I don't even know how to make that work. I've never, ever seen one used in a game. A hider already dies if they target scum. How is adding a modifier that kills them if they target scum going to work? Does it add a second death? A Hider can't be targeted by anything else, so it isn't like you are building in a way to defeat doctoring. You are just making this up.
3) A voyeur could confirm that sudgy was NKed, but it doesn't say anything about who sudgy targeted. It just invalidates his results even more. A watcher watching sudgy seeing who targeted sudgy isn't super helpful, because what if they did your doctor plan?
4) I think busdriving affects results that are given to the targeter, and who is affected by the targeting. The targeter doesn't know they were busdriven, though, so anyone watching the targeter only sees what the targeter did.
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Great discussion. I'm inclined to believe sudgy. This claim seems a lot like his claim in MC of being a captained doctor, which turned out to be true. Not really thought out, asking for guidance. I think the investigative aspect of his weak role is wasted if he doesn't claim. It may be hard to find a way to really trust the information we get from this, but not telling us pretty much wastes it. He could have looked for a way to breadcrumb, or cryptically announce, like ashersky says, but that's tricky too. Now that we know, telling us might have wasted the PR itself, but it's too late now.
Now that it's done, I suggest he does not mention any names, but devises a clue based on his flavor name that would point uniquely to one person who he then targets. sudgy make sure the clue gives nothing away ahead of time! Those of you familiar with Dr. Who, can his flavor name be inferred from what we already know?
A couple of people have mentioned "then you guys can time travel and ....". I don't think we should make any plans based on hopes that we could do that. Too many things can go wrong. Don't claim based on that, either. ashersky I think your doctor plan wouldn't work b/c we wouldn't necessarily know what nights things were done.
PR's should use their own judgement about who to target, but I personally don't think we should use the doctor in the way xeiron suggests.
Thoughts?
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A doctor will not save me, so don't try to save me.
A roleblock of any kind will save me.
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A doctor will not save me, so don't try to save me.
A roleblock of any kind will save me.
But if you die and are retrospectively Doctored and it doesn't save you, that will be confirmation that you targeted scum, right?
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A doctor will not save me, so don't try to save me.
A roleblock of any kind will save me.
But if you die and are retrospectively Doctored and it doesn't save you, that will be confirmation that you targeted scum, right?
No, that's confirmation that something else killed me. If I get roleblocked, I won't die, since I never targeted them in the first place, but someone trying to doc me won't save me as I still target them.
If a roleblocker tries to save me, and I don't get saved, that means I got killed by something else. If a doc tries to save me, and I get saved, that means I got killed by something else.
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A doctor will not save me, so don't try to save me.
A roleblock of any kind will save me.
But if you die and are retrospectively Doctored and it doesn't save you, that will be confirmation that you targeted scum, right?
No, that's confirmation that something else killed me. If I get roleblocked, I won't die, since I never targeted them in the first place, but someone trying to doc me won't save me as I still target them.
If a roleblocker tries to save me, and I don't get saved, that means I got killed by something else. If a doc tries to save me, and I get saved, that means I got killed by something else.
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A doctor will not save me, so don't try to save me.
A roleblock of any kind will save me.
But if you die and are retrospectively Doctored and it doesn't save you, that will be confirmation that you targeted scum, right?
No, that's confirmation that something else killed me. If I get roleblocked, I won't die, since I never targeted them in the first place, but someone trying to doc me won't save me as I still target them.
If a roleblocker tries to save me, and I don't get saved, that means I got killed by something else. If a doc tries to save me, and I get saved, that means I got killed by something else.
Woooooooooah. I thought you said does. My bad.
That isn't a guarantee, there could be other factors (I died through some other means, maybe a strongman, someone roleblocked the doc, etc.). I think someone roleblocking me is way more likely to to bring a solid result, because it would be harder to mess with.
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A doctor will not save me, so don't try to save me.
A roleblock of any kind will save me.
But if you die and are retrospectively Doctored and it doesn't save you, that will be confirmation that you targeted scum, right?
No, that's confirmation that something else killed me. If I get roleblocked, I won't die, since I never targeted them in the first place, but someone trying to doc me won't save me as I still target them.
If a roleblocker tries to save me, and I don't get saved, that means I got killed by something else. If a doc tries to save me, and I get saved, that means I got killed by something else.
Woooooooooah. I thought you said does. My bad.
That isn't a guarantee, there could be other factors (I died through some other means, maybe a strongman, someone roleblocked the doc, etc.). I think someone roleblocking me is way more likely to to bring a solid result, because it would be harder to mess with.
What result would that be? If you didn't die, it would tell us absolutely NOTHING about the person you targeted. If you are roleblocked, you get a "no result" PM from the Mod.
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A doctor will not save me, so don't try to save me.
A roleblock of any kind will save me.
But if you die and are retrospectively Doctored and it doesn't save you, that will be confirmation that you targeted scum, right?
No, that's confirmation that something else killed me. If I get roleblocked, I won't die, since I never targeted them in the first place, but someone trying to doc me won't save me as I still target them.
If a roleblocker tries to save me, and I don't get saved, that means I got killed by something else. If a doc tries to save me, and I get saved, that means I got killed by something else.
Woooooooooah. I thought you said does. My bad.
That isn't a guarantee, there could be other factors (I died through some other means, maybe a strongman, someone roleblocked the doc, etc.). I think someone roleblocking me is way more likely to to bring a solid result, because it would be harder to mess with.
What result would that be? If you didn't die, it would tell us absolutely NOTHING about the person you targeted. If you are roleblocked, you get a "no result" PM from the Mod.
I think he means retrospectively. If Roleblocking saves him then his action was the only one that caused his death.
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FoS: chairs
Multiple request by multiple people for some elaboration on the sudgy looks like a SK comment he made.
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Ash, the "scumslip" was you saying that I said mafia the first time and scum the second time.
I study my PMs not trying to memorize them, but in other ways. I asked Volt what would happen if I got roleblocked or docced, trying to find ways that I could get saved.
I was thinking, someone could go back in time and try to save me. If I get saved, we catch scum. If I don't, I got killed.
But how do you know there's a role like "time-travelling doctor"? I think the OP example shows that a role like that would be very much overpowered.
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Question for the sudgy wagon: why would he be fake claiming right now day one? What's the end game?
I will note that my vote stands against his voting pattern. His claim didn't exist until after my vote. chairs' inclination that he was acting like a SK keeps me interested in my vote because I think it fits the claim perfectly.
I think looking for the SK to lynch instead of just wanting to lynch scum is somewhat of a scum trait. Especially D1, and when we don't even know whether we have a SK.
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Also, just thought of this, but I'm pretty sure if we have two protective roles, we can game the game to auto-win.
Basically, once one dies, the other one time travels to save him. Then, even if that one gets killed, the other saves him. And they just rotate who's alive and who's dead while lynching everyone else.
This of course only works if both have the ability to time travel. Which as already stated would be overpowered.
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Okay, now sudgy. I think he is best left alive today. If he is lying, he has to continue lying in the future, which will get harder. If he is telling the truth, he might die sooner or later and all we're doing here is wasting a lynch and let a potentially strong town PR die early.
I like xeiron's plan, and I think sudgy should follow it today.
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Clarification: I think we sudgy should follow the plan that he announces multiple targets today based on his flavor. I do not think doctoring sudgy is such a great idea.
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So, right now we have (without rereading because I don't have the time right now)
Archetype - Archetype? I have heard hardly anything from him since that early wagon. Seems like a good target.
chairs - Weird Tree Stump claim is reason enough to let him live.
sudgy - I also think he should be left alive because of his claim, and think the way he acted towards the claim fits his meta.
Walrus - has not given me any strong vibes. Null.
Jimmmmm - I find his contributions useful and would like to have him around for D2.
xeiron - not sure what to make of his reaction to sudgy's claim. First part seemed towny, but about the later parts I'm not so sure.
ashersky - claimed and should stay alive. Also contributes a lot, and I like the way he plays.
faust
Galzria - has to post more. But I'm rather unwilling to lynch him, as he's a strong town player.
2.71828..... - don't know. Have to reread I guess. Null for now.
EFHW - IC.
pingpongsam - Lean towny. I'd prefer not to lynch him today.
nkirbit - Could lynch.
jotheonah - Slight town read.
After this, I think I want to vote: Archetype. Again.
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Question for the sudgy wagon: why would he be fake claiming right now day one? What's the end game?
I will note that my vote stands against his voting pattern. His claim didn't exist until after my vote. chairs' inclination that he was acting like a SK keeps me interested in my vote because I think it fits the claim perfectly.
I think looking for the SK to lynch instead of just wanting to lynch scum is somewhat of a scum trait. Especially D1, and when we don't even know whether we have a SK.
I see your point. The thing is I am interested in lynching any scum which was the basis for my vote. Upon the claim the notion that it could be a specific type of scum occurred and then was reinforced by chairs' allegation which thus far he has not supported. But, yeah, I see your point. If sudgy is Town well, it's a terrible lynch. If sudgy is Mafia, it's a pretty bad claim. If he is SK the claim fits, it's a great lynch but I am getting into egotism to think I've somehow identified the SK on D1 from some highly circumstantial evidence.
That said, at this rate if we all claim we go to D1 no-lynch because so far every claim has resulted in a 1-day pass today.
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Archetype made it clear he was V/LA with today being the earliest possible date he could post again. Voting him for being absent is a low blow.
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Clarification: I think we sudgy should follow the plan that he announces multiple targets today based on his flavor. I do not think doctoring sudgy is such a great idea.
What is not such a great idea is talking at all about whether or not we should doctor sudgy.
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(This post is not in response to the votes I got)
I'm going to partially claim. I have been thinking about it, and I think it is in town's best interests.
My role has the "weak" modifier. This means, that when I target somebody at night, if I target the mafia, I die.
Now, this can be used as a cop. Either I announce my target the night before, then we see if I die (but in RMM, it would be hard to know), or if I die somebody can go back in time to save me (a roleblocker could do that).
EFHW, do you think I should announce my target each night?
This got answered already but is a bad idea because scum can abuse it. The "if my flavor name starts with X" is good, though.
unvote.
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That V/LA was really unexpected, but I'm here! And I've caught up!
Firstly, I believe sudgy's claim. Mostly because it's coming from sudgy and, no offense, I don't think he would have came up with Weak as a fakeclaim if he were scum. It's possible that Voltaire gave the scum fakeclaims though. I do not think he should name his target beforehand. At all. FOS to all those who said he should. Anyone who remembers LOTR2 (ash especially) should know I was a Weak Doctor and did the same thing. Terrible, terrible move. Scum didn't manipulate it per se, but it ended up hurting more than helping. I think the same thing can happen here if we aren't careful. I really like xeiron's plan of using the first letter to determine scum/town.
It's spread throughout a couple of quotes, but xeiron seems to be putting a lot of emphasis on sudgy's power. I think that if there is a Doctor (Time Traveling or not) they shouldn't be trying to keep sudgy alive as much as possible. His power is a very fragile cop that, while I'm pretty sure could be Town, isn't reliable when compared to saving EFHW who is modconfirmed Town aligned. And apparently a Doctor saving sudgy won't do anything, but a Roleblocker can. Which I'm still confused about.
I'm keeping my vote on xeiron. It seems like's he's directing the conversation around sudgy's power than about actual scum hunting.
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So here are my reads:
Archetype - Town
chairs - I'm like 80% he's Town based on his claim, but we have seen a scum Tree Stumps. His SK theory is strange.
sudgy - Reminds me of MC Sudgy. That combined with his claim gives me a towny vibe here
Walrus - Leaning Towny. Can't really remember anything he's said in particular.
Jimmmmm - Seems a bit too interested in sudgy's claim and IIRC was one of the first people on my early wagon. Leaning a bit scum.
xeiron - Jumping to conclusions and is like a dog on a bone with players' claims. Scummy.
ashersky - Reminds me of how he played as Maleficent in Grimm Tale. Shoving his opinion down other people's throat and pushing too hard for information. Then again he is usually like that. Plus I don't think he's being 100% truthful with his claim. Scummy.
faust - Null, but he also has come out against me some. So he's obv. scum.
Galzria - I can remember he posted some big-ish post, but nothing from it. Null. Come post!
2.71828..... - Top townread. Very insightful posts and it seems like we have some similar views.
EFHW - IC. I think this is her first time being one...?
pingpongsam - Null, leaning Town. He has posted a Modest Mouse song so he rocks. But he has also defended me a bunch which reminds me of ashersky in Monster Madness Mafia. Other than that I don't really have an opinion
nkirbit - Null, but leaning Towny.
jotheonah - Null. I can't remember anything in particular.
Won't lynch:
EFHW
Archetype
chairs
2.7
sudgy
Willing to lynch (in order):
xeiron
ashersky
Jimmmmm
jotheonah/faust
nkirbit/PPS
Walrus/Galzria
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All right. reads reads reads. I reread the thread and made a note of the things that stood out to me. (either I think they were scummy or had some significance. I did not include lots of posts arguing over claims and such)
1. Archetype-
/98 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327549#msg327549) says leans scum on Ash, but then says it is a weird claim for scum.
/197 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328109#msg328109) sheeps jo’s xeiron vote
2. chairs-
/180 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328040#msg328040) claims tree stump D2
/218 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328214#msg328214) sheeps jo’s xeiron vote
/248 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328456#msg328456) mentions lynching galz for lurking
/266 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328725#msg328725) votes sudgy in a strange way
3. sudgy-
/198 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328112#msg328112) sheeps jo’s xeiron vote
/269 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328729#msg328729) partial claim. “weak” modifier
4. Walrus-
/251 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328495#msg328495) reads post. ends with a nkirbit vote for questionable reasons (in my opinion)
5. Jimmmmm-
/102 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327555#msg327555) votes archetype because of archetype's /98 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327549#msg327549)
6. xeiron-
/169 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328009#msg328009) votes archetype for “setting up a D2 mislynch” of Ashersky
7. ashersky-
/80 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327482#msg327482) claims enabler
/286 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328763#msg328763) points out alleged differences in posts when sudgy referred to “mafia” in one then “anti-town” in another. votes sudgy in the next post
8. faust-
/120 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327649#msg327649) puts words in Ashersky’s mouth about lynching him
/265 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328706#msg328706) says sudgy would be a good lurker lynch
/270 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328730#msg328730) unvotes after the “weak” claim
9. Galzria-
/221 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328233#msg328233) great post with lots of content about the Ash claim, but hasn't commented on anything else
12. pingpongsam-
/264 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328682#msg328682) useful reads post. ends with voting sudgy because of his voting history so far
13. nkirbit-
/291 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328788#msg328788) says the xeiron plan for sudgy doesn’t work and then votes sudgy because he thinks it is a fake-claim
14. jotheonah-
/119 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327635#msg327635) secret case for why we should not lynch Ash
/166 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327996#msg327996) votes ash because he does not see a town narrative for his play
/185 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328050#msg328050) votes xeiron because he /194 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328097#msg328097) “starts” the archetype wagon
/196 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328104#msg328104) says he supports Ash and xeiron lynches
/261 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328640#msg328640) votes nkirbit. never really expands on that
As far as scummy people go, I find Faust scummy. But it seems to me like Faust just posts in a way that makes me think he could be scum, but turns out to be town. I am not ready to vote or lynch him. I also find chairs scummy. But with his claim I will let him slide until D2. I don't like Walrus' rationale for his nkirbit vote at the end of his reads post. Seemed a little scummy to me.
Joth has been useful and posting, but has switched his vote so many times. I am interested in what his original reason to not lynch Ashersky was, especially since it was so strong, yet not strong enough from preventing him from voting Ash later. My original town read has been shifting scummier and scummier.
So I don't have any strong scum reads. However, I do not want to lynch any of the people that have claimed things so far. Ash because Ash. Chairs because his claim is easy to figure out D2 if he was lying. Sudgy because I don't really see his claim coming from a scum perspective. Also Ash got on him for saying "mafia" one time and then "anti-town" another. I may be naive, but that just seemed like he was going off memory and then went and actually checked the PM. so a little towny.
PPE:3
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Vote Count 1.6
Archetype (3): Jimmmmm, xeiron, faust
xeiron (2): Archetype, sudgy
nkirbit (2): Walrus, jotheonah
sudgy (3): pingpongsam, ashersky, nkirbit
Not voting (4): 2.7..., chairs, EFHW, Galzria
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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So, it looks like a lot of us are going to be busy over the next few days and not as available for mafia. Our deadline is the 27th at 5:30 pm. Ideally the game can pick up on the evening of the 26th so we can have some discussion before the deadline. Please make a quick post letting us know your availability those two evenings, and if you can't be there, be sure to leave a vote before you go!
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Honestly, I'll be completely focused on family time for the Christmas holidays, so basically LA until Monday.
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I have something tonight, tomorrow night, then on Christmas day I'm gone all day.
My free time is being all spent on a Christmas gift...
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I am also busy with christmas the coming days.
I will have phone access, so I can follow the game, but don't expect much activity from me.
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Great discussion. I'm inclined to believe sudgy. This claim seems a lot like his claim in MC of being a captained doctor, which turned out to be true. Not really thought out, asking for guidance. I think the investigative aspect of his weak role is wasted if he doesn't claim. It may be hard to find a way to really trust the information we get from this, but not telling us pretty much wastes it. He could have looked for a way to breadcrumb, or cryptically announce, like ashersky says, but that's tricky too. Now that we know, telling us might have wasted the PR itself, but it's too late now.
Now that it's done, I suggest he does not mention any names, but devises a clue based on his flavor name that would point uniquely to one person who he then targets. sudgy make sure the clue gives nothing away ahead of time! Those of you familiar with Dr. Who, can his flavor name be inferred from what we already know?
A couple of people have mentioned "then you guys can time travel and ....". I don't think we should make any plans based on hopes that we could do that. Too many things can go wrong. Don't claim based on that, either. ashersky I think your doctor plan wouldn't work b/c we wouldn't necessarily know what nights things were done.
PR's should use their own judgement about who to target, but I personally don't think we should use the doctor in the way xeiron suggests.
Thoughts?
I think EFHW makes much sense here.
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I should be present after Christmas. So Thursday/Friday I'll be around as much as usual.
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Honestly, I'll be completely focused on family time for the Christmas holidays, so basically LA until Monday.
Please leave your reads before you go!
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Honestly, I'll be completely focused on family time for the Christmas holidays, so basically LA until Monday.
Please leave your reads before you go!
Town: me, EFHW
Townish: Galz
Safely nullish: chairs for the claim
Unsafely nullish: everyone else
Scummish: sudgy for the claim, walrus for oddly lurking?
I don't know, no real strong reads, as this has been an odd D1. This is a pretty worthless post, all in all.
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I am with my family but honestly, some times I need a break from them. I've also been sick, so I know the next thing I need to do is reread some people and see what jumps out, but I'm just too lazy right now.
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I'll be with family Christmas Eve/Christmas Day. I think I've posted all that you've wanted EFHW.
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I am with my family but honestly, some times I need a break from them.
You can say that twice! ;)
OK, well it looks like the most major thing that's happened since I last posted was sudgy's half-claim? To be honest I don't like it. Maybe I just don't get it? I'm finding it hard to understand why he would do this as town or scum. But I'm leaning scum.
First of all, couldn't he just lie about his results? "Oh I targeted Bill, and look I didn't die! So I guess Bill's in the clear XD" Meanwhile sudgy and Bill are scumpartners. Am I missing something, or is that a really dangerous possibility?
Second, with claims left and right already this game, maybe sudgy thought he could just slip another one in there and nobody would think too much of it? The timing was really silly, and of course he made sure to mention conspicuously that his claim had *nothing* to do with the votes on him, which is a fine bit of WIFOM. In an RMM environment, we can expect that practically everyone has a PR. So it's easy to claim one, and it's hard to learn too much based on that. Every lynch, mis- or otherwise, is liable to be a PR, and you sort of just have deal with that. Pretty much everyone is going to claim something when they get down to L-1 (or earlier).
Third, in order to use sudgy's supposed ability in a pro-town manner, we'd have to tie up other PRs to confirm his claims. Those PRs could be doing other more useful things, and then we'd have to believe those claims, and so forth. Unless the rest of sudgy's ability is really awesome then maybe there's more efficient things to do.
So I think this claim is pretty weak (HAHAHAHHAHA), and I just talked myself into a vote: sudgy. The only thing holding me back a bit is the fact that this is nowhere near the path of least resistance for scum to take, especially D1. It would be quite gambit-y, which I believe sudgy is capable of, but still not as easy as lurking. If sudgy is town, it could also possibly be an easy mislynch for scum to push through, given its visibility. But despite these reservations, and considering my earlier scumread, I'm happy with my vote for now.
nkirbit's OMGUSy vote against me was a little weird, but overall he has handled this bit of pressure on him quite coolly. I also had forgotten he recently had surgery, which gives some leave for his lurkiness. So minus a few scumpoints here.
The other biggest wagon is on Archetype, and I could get behind that too. I mentioned in my previous post that he was one of my scumreads, and I also found his recent post with the "surprise V/LA" to be awfully convenient, just as somebody had called him out about that. So I could be OK with an Arch lynch.
For what it's worth, I had just assumed that there was a time-traveling doctor in this game. Because, well, time-traveling doctor. Ya know?
I will of course be fairly busy over the next few days. But I should have time for the occasional post, especially late at night.
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4 Days, No Galz. can we get a Prod: Galzria?
Would anyone consider a policy lynch on Galzria? Yeah, we all love him and he's a great player but he's not, you know, playing the game... at all.
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Also, I went back and checked and maybe I missed it but I didn't see the part about what are the end of Day no-lynch or lynch conditions?
We may not pull enough people together on Friday to get a lynch consensus if we have to have an 8 man vote to make it happen. Additionally, with everyone handing out D1 passes like door prizes for claims is no-lynch what Town wants?
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Galzria has been prodded.
- if the deadline is reached without a player reaching the lynch number, a no-lynch will occur
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4 Days, No Galz. can we get a Prod: Galzria?
Would anyone consider a policy lynch on Galzria? Yeah, we all love him and he's a great player but he's not, you know, playing the game... at all.
I've already considered it as a possibility, and failing a lynch that feels more likely to hit scum it's probably where I'll end up.
In fact, vote: galzria.
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FoS: chairs and PPS. You don't push for a policy lynch when there are multiple lynches of substance on the table. You're either lazy town or scum if you do.
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So, asking the question is pushing?
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less so than actually voting, I suppose. A little defensive to a FoS though, aren't we?
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I will be able to post every now and then during Christmas. I likely won't be around for the deadline.
I agree that we need more from Galzria. But lynching him might be dangerous. I'd rather lynch someone who actually acts scummy. I get LAL and everything, but I strongly believe Galz will contribute more once the holidays are over.
That said, I scheduled a reread for tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
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I am with my family but honestly, some times I need a break from them.
You can say that twice! ;)
OK, well it looks like the most major thing that's happened since I last posted was sudgy's half-claim? To be honest I don't like it. Maybe I just don't get it? I'm finding it hard to understand why he would do this as town or scum. But I'm leaning scum.
First of all, couldn't he just lie about his results? "Oh I targeted Bill, and look I didn't die! So I guess Bill's in the clear XD" Meanwhile sudgy and Bill are scumpartners. Am I missing something, or is that a really dangerous possibility?
Well, yes he can. I guess noone here suggests we should 100% trust sudgy, only that we shouldn't lynch him today (at least that's my opinion.
Second, with claims left and right already this game, maybe sudgy thought he could just slip another one in there and nobody would think too much of it? The timing was really silly, and of course he made sure to mention conspicuously that his claim had *nothing* to do with the votes on him, which is a fine bit of WIFOM. In an RMM environment, we can expect that practically everyone has a PR. So it's easy to claim one, and it's hard to learn too much based on that. Every lynch, mis- or otherwise, is liable to be a PR, and you sort of just have deal with that. Pretty much everyone is going to claim something when they get down to L-1 (or earlier).
I think if sudgy was scum fake-claiming, he would just have a full-prepared claim going out, not just a part-claim (weak).
Third, in order to use sudgy's supposed ability in a pro-town manner, we'd have to tie up other PRs to confirm his claims. Those PRs could be doing other more useful things, and then we'd have to believe those claims, and so forth. Unless the rest of sudgy's ability is really awesome then maybe there's more efficient things to do.
Well, to use sudgy's ability, the best is to just wait for him to turn up dead I think. When he does, we know whether he's telling the truth.
So I think this claim is pretty weak (HAHAHAHHAHA), and I just talked myself into a vote: sudgy. The only thing holding me back a bit is the fact that this is nowhere near the path of least resistance for scum to take, especially D1. It would be quite gambit-y, which I believe sudgy is capable of, but still not as easy as lurking. If sudgy is town, it could also possibly be an easy mislynch for scum to push through, given its visibility. But despite these reservations, and considering my earlier scumread, I'm happy with my vote for now.
I find it slightly strange that you're stating all these objections to lynch sudgy. Is this so noone can posibly critize your vote and you can you say: "But look, I considered this!"?
nkirbit's OMGUSy vote against me was a little weird, but overall he has handled this bit of pressure on him quite coolly. I also had forgotten he recently had surgery, which gives some leave for his lurkiness. So minus a few scumpoints here.
The other biggest wagon is on Archetype, and I could get behind that too. I mentioned in my previous post that he was one of my scumreads, and I also found his recent post with the "surprise V/LA" to be awfully convenient, just as somebody had called him out about that. So I could be OK with an Arch lynch.
I agree with PPS that lynching someone because of VLA is bad form (when I voted Archetype, I didn't realize the VLA, sorry).
For what it's worth, I had just assumed that there was a time-traveling doctor in this game. Because, well, time-traveling doctor. Ya know?
You are aware that EFHW's flavor name is "The Doctor", right? So The Doctor is not a doctor, and specifically not a time-travelling one.
I will of course be fairly busy over the next few days. But I should have time for the occasional post, especially late at night.
I think after this I'm fine with vote: Walrus until I have time for a reread.
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How the hell do you know EFHW isn't a time-traveling doctor IC? This is RMM you know. Plus, haven't there been like 20 doctors by now?l Maybe some more are around. I don't actually watch Dr. Who (gasp!). It just seemed likely to me.
So, as I understand it, you're voting for me mostly because of my explanation of my reservations for voting for sudgy? Grrr. I hate playing the game of "what parts of my thought process are socially acceptable to voice in a Mafia game". I recognize that that looks a little hedgy, and I recognized it when I posted it. But the alternative is for me to contribute less to the discussion and post an incomplete fluffball. Is that what you'd prefer? I coulda just lurked and said LOL CHRISTMAS
If we're not allowed to find people scummy for claims (especially weird D1 half-claims in RMM), and we're not allowed to find people scummy for unannounced V/LA, then scum will prey on our naïveté, and you know there are some players who would fully capitalize on that.
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less so than actually voting, I suppose. A little defensive to a FoS though, aren't we?
So asking a question is now defensive?
We can do this all day, it's trite and silly, though.
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less so than actually voting, I suppose. A little defensive to a FoS though, aren't we?
So asking a question is now defensive?
We can do this all day, it's trite and silly, though.
I hear you.
Walrus came out of that exchange looking quite towny, I think. Faust less-so? but it could be town v town.
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unannounced V/LA
It was not unannouced and sadly very real, despite its convenience. I find abusing the usage of a V/LA goes against the game's moral code and is something I'd never do if I were scum.
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Vote Count 1.7
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, xeiron
xeiron (2): Archetype, sudgy
nkirbit (1): jotheonah
sudgy (4): pingpongsam, ashersky, nkirbit, Walrus
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (1): faust
Not voting (3): 2.7..., EFHW, Galzria
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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FoS: chairs and PPS. You don't push for a policy lynch when there are multiple lynches of substance on the table. You're either lazy town or scum if you do.
Are there substantive lynches on the table?
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Looking at the vote count I am still comfortable with my vote on sudgy. To me the claim is irrelevant because at this juncture in the game I feel it is largely unprovable. This is RMM with all possibilities of roleblocking, bus driving and redirection. How the claim came about is, however, relevant and is arguable equally as a Town or scum maneuver in the face of vote pressure which was relatively low then and remains so now. I didn't vote on the claim because the claim didn't exist when I voted. I voted on facts that looked scummy to me and those facts haven't changed and my attention towards them have been summarily ignored by sudgy. In fact, sudgy's play has switched from tossing sheepish votes willy nilly to leveraging the claim using the false presumption that N1 results will unequivocally reveal his alignment.
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In fact, sudgy's play has switched from tossing sheepish votes willy nilly to leveraging the claim using the false presumption that N1 results will unequivocally reveal his alignment.
Could you show me where I said this? I am certain that my N1 won't do anything for revealing my alignment, short of me dying. Someone else's, maybe, but not mine.
Also, I'll probably try to place a vote on the 26th or 27th, I'm still busy working on gifts and then will be busy with Christmas.
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In fact, sudgy's play has switched from tossing sheepish votes willy nilly to leveraging the claim using the false presumption that N1 results will unequivocally reveal his alignment.
Could you show me where I said this? I am certain that my N1 won't do anything for revealing my alignment, short of me dying. Someone else's, maybe, but not mine.
Also, I'll probably try to place a vote on the 26th or 27th, I'm still busy working on gifts and then will be busy with Christmas.
Granted you're not specifying N1 but then why the rush to claim?
And then I typed this other stuff out in response to the you dying N1 thing and realized no way scum is playing a gambit the kills him N1 because no one retroactively doctors the guy that flipped scum.
I'll have to reassess my position. Unvote
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In fact, sudgy's play has switched from tossing sheepish votes willy nilly to leveraging the claim using the false presumption that N1 results will unequivocally reveal his alignment.
Could you show me where I said this? I am certain that my N1 won't do anything for revealing my alignment, short of me dying. Someone else's, maybe, but not mine.
Also, I'll probably try to place a vote on the 26th or 27th, I'm still busy working on gifts and then will be busy with Christmas.
Granted you're not specifying N1 but then why the rush to claim?
Because I think I have a more likely chance of copping correctly if I claim.
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So I think this claim is pretty weak (HAHAHAHHAHA), and I just talked myself into a vote: sudgy. The only thing holding me back a bit is the fact that this is nowhere near the path of least resistance for scum to take, especially D1. It would be quite gambit-y, which I believe sudgy is capable of, but still not as easy as lurking. If sudgy is town, it could also possibly be an easy mislynch for scum to push through, given its visibility. But despite these reservations, and considering my earlier scumread, I'm happy with my vote for now.
I find it slightly strange that you're stating all these objections to lynch sudgy. Is this so noone can posibly critize your vote and you can you say: "But look, I considered this!"?
I am in total disagreement with Faust on this subject. Before you vote someone, you should seriously consider all the objections and address them. If you find that they are not enough to overcome your feelings that said person is scum, you vote for them. Otherwise you save your vote. I fully support Walrus covering his bases before voting a person. He weighed his options, then voted. I just hope that you have the same considerations before voting.
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Third, in order to use sudgy's supposed ability in a pro-town manner, we'd have to tie up other PRs to confirm his claims. Those PRs could be doing other more useful things, and then we'd have to believe those claims, and so forth. Unless the rest of sudgy's ability is really awesome then maybe there's more efficient things to do.
This is what people should absolutely not do, unless they decide it is the best use of their PR.
I believe that sudgy claimed b/c his role is only useful if we know his targets. He chose to claim rather than breadcrumb, which is fine, I think. Whatever happens gives us more to get reactions and interactions from, and that is good, too.
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I'm VLA tomorrow. I'll try to check in around this time.
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unvote for now. I see what efhw is saying about the similarities to sudgy from mc
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Sudgy may very well be lying.. But there's no reason to not hedge our bets. If we're going to lynch him, if he's scum that's terrific whenever, but if he's town we can at least get some ics from him
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How the hell do you know EFHW isn't a time-traveling doctor IC? This is RMM you know. Plus, haven't there been like 20 doctors by now?l Maybe some more are around. I don't actually watch Dr. Who (gasp!). It just seemed likely to me.
So, as I understand it, you're voting for me mostly because of my explanation of my reservations for voting for sudgy? Grrr. I hate playing the game of "what parts of my thought process are socially acceptable to voice in a Mafia game". I recognize that that looks a little hedgy, and I recognized it when I posted it. But the alternative is for me to contribute less to the discussion and post an incomplete fluffball. Is that what you'd prefer? I coulda just lurked and said LOL CHRISTMAS
If we're not allowed to find people scummy for claims (especially weird D1 half-claims in RMM), and we're not allowed to find people scummy for unannounced V/LA, then scum will prey on our naïveté, and you know there are some players who would fully capitalize on that.
Woah. No need to get all worked up. I just put my vote on you to have it on someone, because that's better than what most people here like to do, unvoting; it provokes reactions. In this case, a very interesting one I think. Especially the part where you say "I coulda just lurked" - why does town say this? Town shouldn't ever consider it an option to lurk (edge cases aside). To me, this reads a little like frustrated scum: "I made an effort to look towny, why do I get suspected for that?"
Doing my reread now.
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Fine. I apologize for getting frustrated. My point was I put forward the effort to reread and explain my rationale, and I get a vote for my troubles. That was the source of my annoyance. I am not advocating that anybody should lurk.
"Speech is blasphemy, silence a lie. Above speech and silence there is a way out."
--Zen proverb
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So reads. It's already late, so you're only getting my notes with comments, not an elaborate post.
ashersky: Enabler claim. Says he likely enables town, and that things will be clearer D2. Says he knows what power he enables. Thinks sudgy's claim is fake. Hard to tell as always with ashersky, but I don't think anything here is specifically scummy.
Walrus: calls ashersky's claim "rolefishy". Tries to maintain suspicion on ashersky. Then says town!ash is more likely. Proposes a (semi-serious?) plan to kill ashersky. Votes sudgy for forced joking. Then rereads and votes nkirbit. Later votes sudgy again, and reacts harshly when I criticize this. After rereading, I find him to be on the scummier side and like my vote even more.
sudgy: Votes xeiron (serious!) Claims "Weak". Says doctor doesn't save him, roleblock does. I think his claim is true and we shouldn't lynch him.
pingpongsam: defends ashersky. Huh, this is the only thing I noted. Apparently I wasn't able to take much from pps' posts, which is weird. Maybe I'm just too tired.
Archetype: votes ashersky because he "doesn't understand why he claimed". Sheeps jotheonah and votes xeiron. Everything about him feels slightly scummy as it always does. Could lynch, but wouldn't be surprised at all if it's again mislynched town!Archetype.
Jimmmmm: votes Archetype for his ashersky vote. Little activity overall, which I don't think is an alignment tell, but qualifies him as a possible lurker lynch.
nkirbit: thinks ash's claim benefits scum more than town. Says he does not understand the claims from ash and chairs. ash is his strongest town read. Votes Walrus after getting his vote. Doesn't trust sudgy's claim. He reads very towny to me. Don't want to lynch.
jotheonah: has a secret reason not to lynch ashersky. Then votes ashersky. Wants to lynch ash or xeiron. Says the Archetype wagon has "scum written all over it". Votes nkirbit. Defends sudgy in an inconsistent way. Well, the thing is, me and him don't seem to agree on anything, and while this feels scummy to me, it might just be different playstyle. He's among the most active here, so a lynch could hurt us. Well, I don't really know...
xeiron: gives ashersky a D1 pass. Leans town on Archetype. Gives a plan how sudgy's role might be best used. Feels overall like usual town xeiron to me, with much theory talk and less scumhunting. I'm interested however where the Archetype town read comes from, as I just don't see what could make him town.
chairs: comes out with his claim. Sheeps the xeiron case late. Definitely not a lynch for today.
e: Does not support an ashersky lynch. Posts a reads post with only town reads. Then, later, again no strong scum reads. Hasn't voted a single time I think, apart from RVS. This is a lurker lynch I could support.
Galzria: Ugh. Super-lurking. Still want to keep him alive a bit, hoping that strong town Galzria comes to our aid.
So my lynch pool:
Want to lynch: Walrus, e
Could lynch: jotheonah, Jimmmmm, Archetype, pingpongsam
Might be okay with lynching: Galzria, sudgy, xeiron
Don't want to lynch: faust, EFHW, ashersky, chairs, nkirbit
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Vote Count 1.8
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, xeiron
xeiron (2): Archetype, sudgy
nkirbit (1): jotheonah
sudgy (2): ashersky, Walrus
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (1): faust
Not voting (5): 2.7..., EFHW, Galzria, nkirbit, pingpongsam
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas)
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Ok. Just under 2 days. about 39 hours. A good work week that we have to get in here to get the lynch. quick narrowing of the lynch pool.
Instead of looking for people who are scum, I will be looking for reasonable arguments to remove someone from lynch candidacy.
First I will take myself and EFHW out because I at least know us both to be town. The rest of you at least know EFHW is town.
Lets take out the people who have claimed something today. Sure, they might seem scummy (I think chairs seems scummy) but I think that we should take them off today because of the various nature of their claims. So Chairs, Ashersky, and sudgy are out.
Post count:
Archetype - 19
chairs - 13
sudgy - 18
Walrus - 14
Jimmmmm -17
xeiron - 18
ashersky - 49
faust - 27
Galzria - 3
2.71828..... - 9
EFHW - 31
pingpongsam - 31
nkirbit - 17
jotheonah - 27
Based on activity I will also take out Jotheonah, PPS, and Faust. Also, while I do not really like the inactivity, I also do not support a "policy" lynch on Galz. Yuma is (or was) available as a sub if necessary, and so I do not want to just lynch off Galz.
That leaves Archetype, Walrus, Jimmmmm, xeiron, nkirbit
I find Archetype to be more involved in this game than I have seen him in the past, and except for an unexpected time of LA would probably be in the group of people I take out because of their post count.
So I end up with a lynch pool of Walru, Jimmmm, xeiron, and nkirbit and of those right now I like a vote: Xeiron. At first his plan for Sudgy seemed great, but more and more it is looking like it just ties up a bunch of PRs to make it work. But then follows up on our IC and agrees with EFHW about PRs and what to do at night. I don't know, but coming up with plans for what other PRs are going to do, and then possibly actually getting them to do it seems like a thing scum would want to do
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e, would you right now vote for any person in your lynch pool if this becomes necessary?
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I will elaborate cases on my main lynch candidates, Walrus and e. Walrus first.
In his first post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327511#msg327511) he talks about ashersky's claim, asks lots of questions, doesn't come to a conclusion. He calls ashersky's claim "rolefishy", which I don't understand. He then continues to say how we should be wary of the claim and not take it at face value (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327530#msg327530).
After several people stated that they want to keep ash alive today, he suddenly has a town read on ashersky (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327553#msg327553). Then proposes a not really serious plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327565#msg327565) to kill ash. What was that? How serious was it? I could see it as a way to get town to think about killing ash without having to stand up for that ("it was just a joke!")
Later he gives a reads post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328495#msg328495) which basically says people that are active are towny, lurking players are scummy. This is a very easy position for scum to take, it's mostly pleasing the crowd without having to give much original thoughts. Nkirbit is his top scum read at this point. When nkirbit votes him in return, he just says it's OMGUS (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328556#msg328556).
Then there's nothing for a while, until he gives a long post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329236#msg329236) in which he states why sudgy's claim might be fake. I think the reasoning there is weak, and as Walrus himself says, this could be just the easy mislynch for scum to push through. I just don't think lynching sudgy does anything for us. If he's telling the truth, he will die sooner or later either via scum NK or via his power. If he continues to stay alive, he will be in a tough spot explaining this and we can catch him later.
His reaction (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329276#msg329276) to my pointing this out feels a bit like frustrated scum, as I already mentioned.
So this is pretty much it. It's only a weakish D1 case, but I can see the scum narrative here.
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The case on e.
First thing is that he removes his RVS Archetype vote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328023#msg328023) when the wagon on him starts rolling, which is an easy towncred move. Then goes into a detailed analysis (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328102#msg328102) of ashersky's claim and concludes that he doesn't want to lynch him. Of course, scum needs to analyze the claim as much as town, so this is a null-tell.
Later, he gives more thoughts about chairs' claim (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328164#msg328164). Speculating about claims and the setup is also a way to contribute without the need to take stances, and as such mildly scummy (especially because e has done nothing else up until then).
Then gives a reads list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328643#msg328643) in which all his reads are null-to-town. Again, this is more likely to come from scum: they know who town is, so they are biased to see their actions as towny. They know who scum is and don't want to make them appear scummy. So they end up with lots of town reads. Later he states again (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329061#msg329061) that he doesn't have scum reads.
His latest post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329483#msg329483) includes some POE, which is fine, and a vote on xeiron. This is his first non-RVS vote, and it comes immediately after I pointed out that he hasn't voted yet.
So I think this case is a bit weaker than the one on Walrus, on the other hand that might be because e's posts have less substance. In my eyes, e qualifies as a lurker while Walrus doesn't. So that might be a reason to lynch e over Walrus.
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Interesting that I've gotten nothing but Town off of 2.718. So much so, that the case against him comes of as scummy. I'm not saying it is, in fact, I'll admit it is just the cognitive dissonance that I don't like.
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I also found it interesting that faust's analysis on me was limited to "he defended ashersky" when I am clearly one of the more active players and I've taken significant stances on xeiron, sudgy and Archetype. I've engaged practically every poster on some topic. As to ashersky, I've stated that ultimately his claim is a wash as far as alignment.
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I like faust's case on walrus. It's not airtight, but it is convincing. I'm willing to vote: walrus
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Interesting that I've gotten nothing but Town off of 2.718. So much so, that the case against him comes of as scummy. I'm not saying it is, in fact, I'll admit it is just the cognitive dissonance that I don't like.
What makes you think e is town?
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I also found it interesting that faust's analysis on me was limited to "he defended ashersky" when I am clearly one of the more active players and I've taken significant stances on xeiron, sudgy and Archetype. I've engaged practically every poster on some topic. As to ashersky, I've stated that ultimately his claim is a wash as far as alignment.
Well, I made this reads post at like 4 am. Some things I missed. I definitely need to reread you. But as you're not a lynch candidate now, it can wait.
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On another note, it's been 48 hours since Galzria's prod.
Will Galzria be replaced? If so, when will this happen?
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I do not want to lynch 2.7, but possibly Walrus. He has taken some pretty scummy stances as faust described, but I still find xeiron's reasoning and jumps to conclusions scummier, so I'll leave my vote there.
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Time rapidly dissipating before the deadline, and all "wagons" at middling strength. We need to start approaching a conclusion. It would seem that sudgy isn't happening today, so let's try something else. Prove me wrong sudgy.
vote: jotheonah. I wouldn't blame you if you call this OMGUS, and maybe that's part of it. But take a look at this:
less so than actually voting, I suppose. A little defensive to a FoS though, aren't we?
So asking a question is now defensive?
We can do this all day, it's trite and silly, though.
I hear you.
Walrus came out of that exchange looking quite towny, I think. Faust less-so? but it could be town v town.
A few moments later...
I like faust's case on walrus. It's not airtight, but it is convincing. I'm willing to vote: walrus
Awfully fickle don't ya think?
He followed me to a nkirbit vote earlier too without much justification...
I tried to post earlier today, but apparently it got lost in the ether. Basically I'm convinced by efhw and walrus that xeiron isn't such a great lynch today. But I also feel good about vote: nkirbit instead.
That was just 10 posts after I'd voted for nkirbit. He had that weird ashersky thing, with the unexplained secrets and then a vote. He's already been accused of sheeping the IC.
I'm not seeing very much consistency or conviction here. Active, sure, and with some substantive posts, but for the most part I'd say he's asking the easy questions, hopping his vote around, and generally acting congenial. Right in the scum zone, perhaps?
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Don't like walrus's last post. Looks like scum scramble to me, now that's he's getting pressure.
His use of "a few moments later" is insane hyperbole, given the slowness of this game.
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My use of A few moments later... was supposed to be a Spongebob reference. But when I tried to post the picture it was ridiculously large.
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My use of A few moments later... was supposed to be a Spongebob reference. But when I tried to post the picture it was ridiculously large.
I like Spongebob as much as the next guy, but that wasn't immediately apparent.
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My use of A few moments later... was supposed to be a Spongebob reference. But when I tried to post the picture it was ridiculously large.
I like Spongebob as much as the next guy, but that wasn't immediately apparent.
I believe him. It's a Walrus-y thing to do.
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As I've previously stated, I'd be happy with a Walrus lynch.
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Don't like walrus's last post. Looks like scum scramble to me, now that's he's getting pressure.
His use of "a few moments later" is insane hyperbole, given the slowness of this game.
You notice Walrus doing this, but don't vote. You are still on sudgy. Why is that again?
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I like faust's case on walrus. It's not airtight, but it is convincing. I'm willing to vote: walrus
Can you specify what you found convincing? Sheeping without elaborating doesn't help town very much.
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....
Later he gives a reads post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328495#msg328495) which basically says people that are active are towny, lurking players are scummy. This is a very easy position for scum to take, it's mostly pleasing the crowd without having to give much original thoughts. Nkirbit is his top scum read at this point. When nkirbit votes him in return, he just says it's OMGUS (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328556#msg328556).
This is also interesting because I was almost (mis)lynched recently for not having town reads.
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My use of A few moments later... was supposed to be a Spongebob reference. But when I tried to post the picture it was ridiculously large.
I like Spongebob as much as the next guy, but that wasn't immediately apparent.
I believe him. It's a Walrus-y thing to do.
It is Walrus-y, but when the picture didn't work out, why did he leave like it was, seeming to misrepresent what happened in order to make Joth seem fickle?
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I maintain my point. Obviously the "moments" thing is an exaggeration; no reasonable person would interpret that literally. The time stamps are right there! I didn't think it would cause such strife.
I was trying to emphasize the lack of consistency over a relatively short period of time. And yes, considering the slowness of this game I do consider it to be such.
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How long until deadline? *checks* Wow. Tomorrow.
We have had enough discussion and suspects to not have a No Lynch. So in an effort to push a lynch, I'm pretty much willing to move my vote to any of the following:
faust: I don't agree with, like, none of his reads. Plus some things in his reread seem a little forced.
xeiron: Same reasons as before.
ashersky: Same reasons as before.
Galzria: He's a great Town player...when he's here. But LAL and all that.
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As I've previously stated, I'd be happy with a Walrus lynch.
Then why are you not voting?
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faust: I don't agree with, like, none of his reads. Plus some things in his reread seem a little forced.
Can you elaborate? Also, since when is not agreeing on reads a scumtell? I generally find people who don't just agree with me and bring up new points that I've been missing more helpful and towny.
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Well, I guess Archetype and I can agree to disagree, looking at our lynch pools.
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Also, Archetype, could you state again your cases against xeiron and ashersky? I think that would be helpful.
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I will be pretty much VLA tomorrow. I guess I'll have the time to check in, catch up, and change votes once or twice if necessary, but don't expect me to participate in long discussions.
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...
xeiron: gives ashersky a D1 pass. Leans town on Archetype. Gives a plan how sudgy's role might be best used. Feels overall like usual town xeiron to me, with much theory talk and less scumhunting. I'm interested however where the Archetype town read comes from, as I just don't see what could make him town.
...
I am pretty sure I stated I town-read on Ashersky, not Archetype.
And since then my reads on Ashersky have changed into a scumread.
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I'm not seeing very much consistency or conviction here. Active, sure, and with some substantive posts, but for the most part I'd say he's asking the easy questions, hopping his vote around, and generally acting congenial. Right in the scum zone, perhaps?
I was noticing this about Joth as well. As far as big posters go, he seems the scummiest to me. However, I do not think he is a viable lynch today. Tomorrow we can bring up his voting record, but I am not familiar enough with Joth to really say this is scummy. Some people just vote every time they suspect a new person. Not my preferred method, but that does not mean the person is scum.
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Don't like walrus's last post. Looks like scum scramble to me, now that's he's getting pressure.
His use of "a few moments later" is insane hyperbole, given the slowness of this game.
You notice Walrus doing this, but don't vote. You are still on sudgy. Why is that again?
I don't buy sudgy's claim. Nothing has changed since the claim on that.
I'll vote walrus if we need a lynch before deadline. I'd vote just about anyone that's not on my won't lynch list.
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On another note, it's been 48 hours since Galzria's prod.
Will Galzria be replaced? If so, when will this happen?
A replacement is being sought. Unfortunately I cannot promise a sub by the deadline, though I will do my best.
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On another note, it's been 48 hours since Galzria's prod.
Will Galzria be replaced? If so, when will this happen?
A replacement is being sought. Unfortunately I cannot promise a sub by the deadline, though I will do my best.
I can do it!
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Don't like walrus's last post. Looks like scum scramble to me, now that's he's getting pressure.
His use of "a few moments later" is insane hyperbole, given the slowness of this game.
You notice Walrus doing this, but don't vote. You are still on sudgy. Why is that again?
I don't buy sudgy's claim. Nothing has changed since the claim on that.
I'll vote walrus if we need a lynch before deadline. I'd vote just about anyone that's not on my won't lynch list.
I looked back through your posts for such a list and didn't find anything specific. You seemed to indicate chairs and Galz were town here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329199#msg329199). Anyone else?
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Vote Count 1.9
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, xeiron
xeiron (3): Archetype, sudgy, 2.7...
sudgy (1): ashersky
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (2): faust, jotheonah
jotheonah (1): Walrus
Not voting (4): EFHW, Galzria, nkirbit, pingpongsam
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas). That's in less than 24 hours.
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...
So I end up with a lynch pool of Walrus, Jimmmm, xeiron, and nkirbit and of those right now I like a vote: Xeiron. At first his plan for Sudgy seemed great, but more and more it is looking like it just ties up a bunch of PRs to make it work. But then follows up on our IC and agrees with EFHW about PRs and what to do at night. I don't know, but coming up with plans for what other PRs are going to do, and then possibly actually getting them to do it seems like a thing scum would want to do
I am not trying to dictate other PRs. I fully believe everyone should decide for themselves how to use their role. What I am trying is to point out how different PRs could confirm different aspects of Sudgys results. Someone said that, or implied, that we can never trust his results, because scum could mess up in so many ways (night kills, buss driving etc.). My goal is to show that town PRs, with good prediction, can negate most scum attempts. This means there are scenarious Sudgy can catch scum for us, and it is worth keeping sudgy around for the chance of that happening.
As a side note, I want to say that I expect Sudgy to die at night early in this game. If he is not dead yet when we are nearing the endgame we should probably lynch him. (ideally the day before LYLO). If he has neither target scum or been nightkilled by then he is probably scum. In worst case of him flipping town we just get a bunch of town indices on the ones he have targeted during the game.
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...
xeiron: gives ashersky a D1 pass. Leans town on Archetype. Gives a plan how sudgy's role might be best used. Feels overall like usual town xeiron to me, with much theory talk and less scumhunting. I'm interested however where the Archetype town read comes from, as I just don't see what could make him town.
...
I am pretty sure I stated I town-read on Ashersky, not Archetype.
And since then my reads on Ashersky have changed into a scumread.
Yes, I don't find what I thought I read there. No more reread before bed.
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Alright, I'm leaving for today. Hope we somehow get a lynch in. pingpongsam, nkirbit: vote! EFHW: You should push town towards a lynch, maybe even as far as stating an "IC-approved" lynch if necessary. I hope that town manages this without such means, but I am a little afraid of a no lynch at the moment.
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My articulate and heavily researched xeiron case:
xeiron - Jumping to conclusions and is like a dog on a bone with players' claims. Scummy.
and then the ashersky one:
ashersky- Reminds me of how he played as Maleficent in Grimm Tale. Shoving his opinion down other people's throat and pushing too hard for information. Then again he is usually like that. Plus I don't think he's being 100% truthful with his claim. Scummy.
I usually don't have time to do big long cases, but I may reread each of them and give my comments as I go. By the way, I'm leaving for the northern part of Idaho (Highdaho) tomorrow about 4 hours before deadline. So I will NOT be on up until deadline date. If someone isn't lynched by that time, I'll probably just drop my vote on the most likely candidate.
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During my discussion with Ashersky about Sudgy some pages back. I developed a scum read on Ashersky.
I got a feeling that Ashersky had decided there was enough scummy things about Sudgy to make a case, and then then to push it as hard as he could. When someone had arguments in favor of Sudgy, he came with counter arguments. I felt Ashersky never stopped to reconsider Sudgy's allignment after new arguments was brought up.
This post gave me the strongest feeling:
I don't see a good reason for lynching sudgy. Could be a fakeclaim, sure, but could just as well be true. Someone with a Weak modifier is quite likely to go to the grave with a guilty result, and would ideally be able to communicate that information to everyone else. Claiming beforehand can be manipulated, sure, but it's the most obvious way of doing it. I think sudgy should claim who he is going to target, and if he dies we don't assume they are scum unless we can eliminate any other ways he could have been killed.
How would you propose we eliminate the possibility that he was:
1) scumteam NK
2) SK NK
3) a different scumteam NK
4) a vig NK
5) busdriven from town to scum
That's just 5 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more ways for the guy to die.
Someone doctoring Sudgy or Sudgy flipping hider would rule out the four first. A watcher or voyeur could confirm/not confirm them. A tracker could confirm/eliminate the fifth.
And because this it a time traveling game there is far more likely that the right role targets the right person to the right time in order to give us important information.
What?
Okay, someone could doctor sudgy. If sudgy is telling the truth, we wasted the doctor's power. If sudgy is lying, we wasted the doctor's power. BAD.
He didn't claim Hider, so why would you even mention this? Bad.
A watcher would have to watch sudgy's target to see sudgy do anything. A voyeur would confirm someone took an action, but not if that action is weak. Both can be manipulated. BAD.
A tracker couldn't confirm busdriving, as a bus driver switches all actions targeting one person to another person. I think the tracker would see sudgy target the first, but not see that he got results from the second. Bad.
I think time traveling makes it much harder to target correctly, as opposed to the opposite. Yeah, when it's late in the game, sure, but early on? No way.
In this quote I feel Ashersky is focused on refuting all of my statements, not on actually thinking them through.
Dismissing the similarities of hider and weak roles (both dies when targeting scum), but focussing on the fact that hider does not usually have weak in their name, seems rather ignorant to me. And I don't get how doctoring sudgy from a nightkill is "wasting" the doc power if Sudgy still dies from targeting scum.
But I won't say that Asherskys was all wrong in his case. He made several good points. The point about busdriving in the quote over is something I had not thought of. He also made plenty of good points in his other posts. But the case as a whole feel fake to me.
I have felt this way about Ashersky earlier as well when he was scum. In Grimm tales about Chairs the last day, and in Monster Madness when targeting BoxofDOG at the start. Both cases when Ashersky decided on a target, and then pushed for them as long as he could. It is recognizing similarities between this game and these cases that have set of my scumalarm.
Vote: Ashersky
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I will leave for the night now.
I will be back tomorrow, in good time before deadline. I will also be around at deadline and work for a lynch.
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I've been observing and will be active tomorrow. No Jimmmmm and low activity in general is making it look very difficult to get 8 people united on a vote.
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Your mod will be LA during the deadline tomorrow, so you may experience an unnaturally long twilight. Enjoy it and rest assured I will return to lock the thread, eventually.
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The last game I played where Voltgloss went AWOL, Town sat around trying to figure out how to kill themselves because Voltgloss was scum the whole time. I am warming up to a Galzria policy lynch if for no other reason than to avoid a very likely no lynch scenario.
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As I've previously stated, I'd be happy with a Walrus lynch.
Then why are you not voting?
Fair enough vote walrus
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vote: walrus
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vote: walrus
We need a wagon, either to get action going or to reach a lynch before deadline.
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Vote Count 1.10
Archetype (1): Jimmmmm
xeiron (3): Archetype, sudgy, 2.7...
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (4): faust, jotheonah, nkirbit, ashersky
jotheonah (1): Walrus
ashersky (1): xeiron
Not voting (3): EFHW, Galzria, pingpongsam
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas).
That's in ~19 hours.
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I know I've been neglecting this. I'll give at least Walrus a read as soon as I can, and definitely have a useful vote down by deadline.
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Alright, I'm leaving for today. Hope we somehow get a lynch in. pingpongsam, nkirbit: vote! EFHW: You should push town towards a lynch, maybe even as far as stating an "IC-approved" lynch if necessary. I hope that town manages this without such means, but I am a little afraid of a no lynch at the moment.
I think town is doing well sorting out who to lynch. I disagree that there should be an "IC approved" lynch. I have less information than the rest of town about who is possibly scum! I have been purposely not posting my reads, and won't until closer to deadline.
Walrus, you are the biggest wagon right now. Please be sure to be on tomorrow if you want a chance to speak before your possible lynch.
All of you who are the only person on a wagon (Jimmmmm, chairs, Walrus), please reevaluate and see if there is a bigger wagon you could support.
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and xeiron (re last comment in previous post)
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All of you who are the only person on a wagon (Jimmmmm, chairs, Walrus), please reevaluate and see if there is a bigger wagon you could support.
Will do at some point before deadline when I'm at home.
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I am comfortable with my vote where it is now. I will be gone all tomorrow morning, but will be around in the mid-afternoon as we approach the deadline. If I need to switch to get a lynch, I will probably switch to that person, but only closer the deadline.
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Well, I really didn want to have to claim today, unlike some of our more eagle claimants. But it looks like I'm defaulting to a lynch and this might be my last chance todo so. So here's some of it:
I am River Song. I have several cool powders including the ability to time travel.
her not have to say more than that, but I will if I have to.
Would I like to joina larger wagon? Like the one on me? No thanks. On xeiron? He's a town read for me and two of my scumreads are currently a boarded. I am willing to join Jimmmmm and vote: Archetype though. I'm not sure what I think about a Galz lynch...I guess it's better than nothing?
It is extremely drunk and I am fairly late. I will probably be awake for another half hour or so if you ave questioned. Ill be around tomorrow morning as well.
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Well, I really didn want to have to claim today, unlike some of our more eagle claimants. But it looks like I'm defaulting to a lynch and this might be my last chance todo so. So here's some of it:
I am River Song. I have several cool powders including the ability to time travel.
her not have to say more than that, but I will if I have to.
Would I like to joina larger wagon? Like the one on me? No thanks. On xeiron? He's a town read for me and two of my scumreads are currently a boarded. I am willing to join Jimmmmm and vote: Archetype though. I'm not sure what I think about a Galz lynch...I guess it's better than nothing?
It is extremely drunk and I am fairly late. I will probably be awake for another half hour or so if you ave questioned. Ill be around tomorrow morning as well.
Several powers. As in Jack Of All Trades? I have the impression that JOAT is more often scum than town, but I have not actually checked if that is true. The idea is that if you (the Mod) wants a scumteam to have access to a diversity of powers, you need to a scum player more than one role. JOAT as a good way to accomplish this.
On the other hand there are usually enough town players to use full roles for whatever roles you want town to have. Town JOATs, I think, do often carry different versions of the same basic power. One example is Jimmmmm in Grimm tales who had three doctor shots. One for each type of night kill.
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I have reread Walrus and the case against him, and I can stand for a vote.
Besides I do not like the other main wagon (me).
I have bolded what I find the strongest arguments in the case against him.
How the hell do you know EFHW isn't a time-traveling doctor IC? This is RMM you know. Plus, haven't there been like 20 doctors by now?l Maybe some more are around. I don't actually watch Dr. Who (gasp!). It just seemed likely to me.
So, as I understand it, you're voting for me mostly because of my explanation of my reservations for voting for sudgy? Grrr. I hate playing the game of "what parts of my thought process are socially acceptable to voice in a Mafia game". I recognize that that looks a little hedgy, and I recognized it when I posted it. But the alternative is for me to contribute less to the discussion and post an incomplete fluffball. Is that what you'd prefer? I coulda just lurked and said LOL CHRISTMAS
If we're not allowed to find people scummy for claims (especially weird D1 half-claims in RMM), and we're not allowed to find people scummy for unannounced V/LA, then scum will prey on our naïveté, and you know there are some players who would fully capitalize on that.
Woah. No need to get all worked up. I just put my vote on you to have it on someone, because that's better than what most people here like to do, unvoting; it provokes reactions. In this case, a very interesting one I think. Especially the part where you say "I coulda just lurked" - why does town say this? Town shouldn't ever consider it an option to lurk (edge cases aside). To me, this reads a little like frustrated scum: "I made an effort to look towny, why do I get suspected for that?"
I will elaborate cases on my main lynch candidates, Walrus and e. Walrus first.
In his first post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327511#msg327511) he talks about ashersky's claim, asks lots of questions, doesn't come to a conclusion. He calls ashersky's claim "rolefishy", which I don't understand. He then continues to say how we should be wary of the claim and not take it at face value (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327530#msg327530).
After several people stated that they want to keep ash alive today, he suddenly has a town read on ashersky (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327553#msg327553). Then proposes a not really serious plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327565#msg327565) to kill ash. What was that? How serious was it? I could see it as a way to get town to think about killing ash without having to stand up for that ("it was just a joke!")
Later he gives a reads post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328495#msg328495) which basically says people that are active are towny, lurking players are scummy. This is a very easy position for scum to take, it's mostly pleasing the crowd without having to give much original thoughts. Nkirbit is his top scum read at this point. When nkirbit votes him in return, he just says it's OMGUS (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328556#msg328556).
Then there's nothing for a while, until he gives a long post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329236#msg329236) in which he states why sudgy's claim might be fake. I think the reasoning there is weak, and as Walrus himself says, this could be just the easy mislynch for scum to push through. I just don't think lynching sudgy does anything for us. If he's telling the truth, he will die sooner or later either via scum NK or via his power. If he continues to stay alive, he will be in a tough spot explaining this and we can catch him later.
His reaction (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329276#msg329276) to my pointing this out feels a bit like frustrated scum, as I already mentioned.
So this is pretty much it. It's only a weakish D1 case, but I can see the scum narrative here.
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Vote: WalrusMcFishSr
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I am sick to death of the "not me, I claimed" and this latest Walrus claim reeks of it. It feels half-baked and maybe even a mod-provided fake claim. I may be just sick to death of this approach and that may be clouding my perception. The wagon wasn't rolling that strong (votes ?!) to necessitate a claim IMO. It looks like scum finally caved to consistent pressure. I've been riding the fence on Walrus yesterday. I didn't feel there was a compelling case on anyone and that most cases were either weak or likely scum-driven. The weakly flailing vote towards Archetype is strange and is the only element of this that makes me question my Vote: Walrus.
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Well, I really didn want to have to claim today, unlike some of our more eagle claimants.
Are you talking about sudgy?
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I must say I don't hate the Walrus lynch. Granted I haven't had as much time to put into this as I would have liked, and I must get some sleep now. His #360 and #376 somehow seem disingenuous, and "cause such strife" in #400 seems to be an overstatement. It seems that Walrus is the only real lynch candidate now. I won't put him on L-1 right now, but I'll hopefully be back online right before the deadline in case my vote is needed. Sorry I can't help more!
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Well that didn't seem to convince you. Here's a more complete picture:
I am a time-traveling Even Night vig/odd night roleblocker. Plus one more ability that it were best still not to mention.
I claimed when I did because if I had waited until now, it would probably be too late. I was lynched as a PR in an end-of-the-day scramble in GoT before I could claim, and I didn't want to see that repeated. I'd really like to be able to use my cool powders at least once.
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Yes, the more eagle claimants I was referring to are sudgy and ashersky as well, who were apparently just itchin to claim.
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Vote Count 1.11
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, Walrus
xeiron (3): Archetype, sudgy, 2.7...
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (6): faust, jotheonah, nkirbit, ashersky, xeiron, pingpongsam
Not voting (2): EFHW, Galzria
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas).
That's in ~7 hours.
Your mod is now LA. Twistedarcher has volunteered to do votecounts. As a reminder, twilight will probably be very long - don't panic.
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yuma has replaced Galzria.
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Yay Yuma and TA
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Here! Vote: Walrus at this stage I don't believe Walrus' claim. I'm pretty sure he's just a Time Traveling Roleblocker and is faking the Vig part.
That is L-1
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Actually, Unvote.
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Peculiar behavior from Archetype.
Remember that plan I conspicuously hinted at a couple times, that involved chrono-vigs and retroactive blocking? Maybe there was a reason I was confident such a plan could be feasible?
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Eagerly awaiting input from yuma...
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I wouldn't count on it...
Worst Christmas ever=both my wife and I getting food poisoning (or some horrible stomach bug) and spending all of christmas and today puking our guts out. I won't be on for a few more days, but wanted to let you guys know that I am alive, but slowly dying a horrible and terrible death and will be back soon as a Christmas hating zombie.
Volt I can sub into your RMMM game, but won't be around for a few real life days if that is a problem feel free to find someone else.
TA, if you can cover for me again in Chocolate Factory that would be great
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Peculiar behavior from Archetype.
Remember that plan I conspicuously hinted at a couple times, that involved chrono-vigs and retroactive blocking? Maybe there was a reason I was confident such a plan could be feasible?
Yeah but you could easily say that as scum.
I'm actually torn here. Prior to Walrus' claiming, I had a Towny read on him. But now I think he could be scum and he's flailing. But I'll vote:Walrus since he'll probably be brought to L-1 anyways.
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And yes, I don't think Yuma will be here until Day 2 at the earliest. I'll certainly be giving him a pass for the rest of the day.
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Oh, he has a pass, I mean wth is there to lynch him on? I'm wanting the additional perspective we've been lacking the entire game to date.
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Y I'm at Sea World, shamu says hi. This walrus lynch is happening too easily. Someone unvote invite, anyone hammering early will be considered scum
Someone please reread other players and find us a new wagon to compete with this one. I'm on phone, iffy access atm. Back later
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Vote Count 1.12
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, Walrus
xeiron (2): sudgy, 2.7...
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (7): faust, jotheonah, nkirbit, ashersky, xeiron, pingpongsam, Archetype
Not voting (2): EFHW, Galzria
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas).
That's in ~4 hours.
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Y I'm at Sea World, shamu says hi. This walrus lynch is happening too easily. Someone unvote invite, anyone hammering early will be considered scum
Someone please reread other players and find us a new wagon to compete with this one. I'm on phone, iffy access atm. Back later
My biggest scumread is Ashersky. I nominate him as another lynch candidate. See this case:
During my discussion with Ashersky about Sudgy some pages back. I developed a scum read on Ashersky.
I got a feeling that Ashersky had decided there was enough scummy things about Sudgy to make a case, and then then to push it as hard as he could. When someone had arguments in favor of Sudgy, he came with counter arguments. I felt Ashersky never stopped to reconsider Sudgy's allignment after new arguments was brought up.
This post gave me the strongest feeling:
I don't see a good reason for lynching sudgy. Could be a fakeclaim, sure, but could just as well be true. Someone with a Weak modifier is quite likely to go to the grave with a guilty result, and would ideally be able to communicate that information to everyone else. Claiming beforehand can be manipulated, sure, but it's the most obvious way of doing it. I think sudgy should claim who he is going to target, and if he dies we don't assume they are scum unless we can eliminate any other ways he could have been killed.
How would you propose we eliminate the possibility that he was:
1) scumteam NK
2) SK NK
3) a different scumteam NK
4) a vig NK
5) busdriven from town to scum
That's just 5 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more ways for the guy to die.
Someone doctoring Sudgy or Sudgy flipping hider would rule out the four first. A watcher or voyeur could confirm/not confirm them. A tracker could confirm/eliminate the fifth.
And because this it a time traveling game there is far more likely that the right role targets the right person to the right time in order to give us important information.
What?
Okay, someone could doctor sudgy. If sudgy is telling the truth, we wasted the doctor's power. If sudgy is lying, we wasted the doctor's power. BAD.
He didn't claim Hider, so why would you even mention this? Bad.
A watcher would have to watch sudgy's target to see sudgy do anything. A voyeur would confirm someone took an action, but not if that action is weak. Both can be manipulated. BAD.
A tracker couldn't confirm busdriving, as a bus driver switches all actions targeting one person to another person. I think the tracker would see sudgy target the first, but not see that he got results from the second. Bad.
I think time traveling makes it much harder to target correctly, as opposed to the opposite. Yeah, when it's late in the game, sure, but early on? No way.
In this quote I feel Ashersky is focused on refuting all of my statements, not on actually thinking them through.
Dismissing the similarities of hider and weak roles (both dies when targeting scum), but focussing on the fact that hider does not usually have weak in their name, seems rather ignorant to me. And I don't get how doctoring sudgy from a nightkill is "wasting" the doc power if Sudgy still dies from targeting scum.
But I won't say that Asherskys was all wrong in his case. He made several good points. The point about busdriving in the quote over is something I had not thought of. He also made plenty of good points in his other posts. But the case as a whole feel fake to me.
I have felt this way about Ashersky earlier as well when he was scum. In Grimm tales about Chairs the last day, and in Monster Madness when targeting BoxofDOG at the start. Both cases when Ashersky decided on a target, and then pushed for them as long as he could. It is recognizing similarities between this game and these cases that have set of my scumalarm.
Vote: Ashersky
I will Vote Ashersky, to see if we can get a wagon started.
If an totally fine with lynching Walrus, though, And I will switch back if it is needed for a lynch.
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Walrus' claim is something that makes me want to unvote. Can't explain details now. Obviously, we need another wagon, so vote: Archetype. I will happily switch to e if needed, but I don't think this lynch is happening. I will not vote ashersky.
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vote: archetype
Not happy with how he jumped on walrus, and I think walrus has been towny of late.
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Well I guess it's back to Vote: Xeiron
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I'm catching up. I have sort of been going back and forth between walrus and faust, I think one is town and one is scum. I think I may have my vote on the wrong one.
Walrus's case against me is fine. Wrong, but fine. If anything, it makes me think Walrus is more likely to be town. I have been acting kind of anti-town. Posting a lot, not contributing as much as I should. This is kind of my day 1 meta. I'm really bad at the grasping at straws part of this game that is day 1.
And then there's this:
Alright, I'm leaving for today. Hope we somehow get a lynch in. pingpongsam, nkirbit: vote! EFHW: You should push town towards a lynch, maybe even as far as stating an "IC-approved" lynch if necessary. I hope that town manages this without such means, but I am a little afraid of a no lynch at the moment.
I'm always nervous when someone refers to "town" as if they are not part of it. Weaksauce, but worth noting.
My biggest scumread right now is actually nkirbit. That whole "I'm fine with a lynch, but I'm not actually voting thing" allows one to keep one's options open and not look like a trigger happy voter.
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And then I read Walrus's claim. I actually don't like it AT ALL. Vig and roleblocker are both scummy powers! And River Song is a bad guy on the show! Could he have claimed a scummier claim? I'm willing to switch to Archetype, but I don't buy this claim at all. FTR, I have a null read on Archetype, but would prefer him over a no lynch.
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Well as I said I don't know much about the show, but I was under the impression that River Song was a female companion to the doctor, but with more cool powders than his companions usually have. I didn't read the wiki in depth because I may actually watch it some day!
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I've only seen sporadic episodes. The only one I saw with her was "Let's kill Hitler" and she definitely seemed super evil in it.
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Reading the wiki, that seems to have been something of an anomaly. Anyway, the scumminess of the stated roles stands.
Vig is the go-to fake claim for serial killers, roleblockers are more often scum then town. Together, they are a little weird, I'll admit, but it's still not a claim that inspires confidence in me.
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Well idk what to tell you about that. I'm just telling it like it is.
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Post count (ordered from most posts to least):
ashersky - 54
faust - 43
EFHW - 39
pingpongsam - 37
jotheonah - 31
Archetype - 28
xeiron - 25
Walrus - 24
Jimmmmm - 22
nkirbit - 21
sudgy - 18
chairs/2.7 -13
Galzria - 3
I'm very confused as to what the 'case' on me is.
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Seems like Ashersky is not viable.
Back to Vote: Walrus, then.
I prefer lynching him over Archetype.
I agree with Jotheonah that Walrus' claim is scummy.
Claiming vig is convenient for people with nightkills. Roleblocker is often a scum role.
His powers seems powerful if he is scum, not so much if he is town. It is for easy scum to roleblock town players. It is much harder to roleblock scum players, as you don't know who they are, and you might cause far more harm than good by blocking some powerful town roles. Time traveling might help here, but only quite late in the game. Vigs is also of questionable utility for town.
I give Walrus about 50 percent chance of flipping scum, and lynching him seems like a low risk-high reward deal.
If we push for another lynch we risk revealing and/or lynching a far better town role.
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I'm back now until deadline. I had the same thoughts as Joth about Walrus's roles. I don't know anything about Dr. Who, though. But there was literally no push-back on the Walrus lynch, which looks very suspicious to me, and suggests he is town and that there is scum on his wagon, so let's look there more.
At its peak: faust, jotheonah, nkirbit, ashersky, xeiron, pingpongsam, Archetype
I'm going to look at voting records.
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Post count (ordered from most posts to least):
ashersky - 54
faust - 43
EFHW - 39
pingpongsam - 37
jotheonah - 31
Archetype - 28
xeiron - 25
Walrus - 24
Jimmmmm - 22
nkirbit - 21
sudgy - 18
chairs/2.7 -13
Galzria - 3
I'm very confused as to what the 'case' on me is.
Discrediting the case! Scum tell!
I'm just voting you because I found your vote on walrus to be very scummy. Both the manner and the position. It just came across to me like your goal was to end the day as quickly as possible rather than trying to actually find scum.
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The whole, "I thought walrus was towny, now I'm not sure, what the heck lets put him to l-1 anyway reeks to me of scum trying to get that final push while setting up to look innocent tomorrow. If you're really not sure, just don't vote. Being unsure is fine, but why vote then?
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I was unsure before I read the claim. I was typing that post as I went. The claim put me into "comfortable with my vote" territory.
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The whole, "I thought walrus was towny, now I'm not sure, what the heck lets put him to l-1 anyway reeks to me of scum trying to get that final push while setting up to look innocent tomorrow. If you're really not sure, just don't vote. Being unsure is fine, but why vote then?
I voted because I didn't know when I'd leave (which I thought was then, but is actually right now) and I'd rather have a lynch go through for someone who may flip scum and no lynching if two more votes didn't happen. So I voted.
I've explained myself even though I don't acknowledge anything I did wrong. I'll be gone now until about Sunday, so I won't be able to claim (and I sure as heck am not going to now - once I claim I become practically much weaker). Reads are exactly the same exact Walrus has shifted to a scumread.
I'll plant my vote back on Vote:Walrus. I think you're wrong, EFHW.
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Since Arch and xeiron have the biggest wagons of those on the Walrus wagon, I have highlighted their votes in color, and votes for them are underlined.
EFHW v. sudgy (2)
Arch v. ashersky (2) [unv. Joth (0)]
Jimmmmm v. sudgy (3)
Jimmmmm v. Archetype (2) [unv. sudgy (2)]
faust v. Archetype (3)
EFHW unv. sudgy (1)
Arch unv. ash (1)
Joth v. ash (2)
sudgy unv. ash (1)
xeiron v. Archeype (4)
sudgy v. Archetype (5)
2.7 unv. Arch (4)
Joth v. xeiron (1) [unv. Ash (0)]
Arch v. xeiron (2)
sudgy v. xeiron (3) [unv. Arch (3)]
Walrus v. sudgy (2)
ashersky unv. sudgy (1)
chairs v. xeiron (4)
faust v. joth (1) [unv. Arch (2)]
walrus v. nkirbit (1) [unv. Sudgy(0)]
nkirbit v. Walrus (1)
faust v. Arch (3) unv. Joth (0)
Joth v. nkirbit (2) unv. Xeiron (3)
pps v. sudgy (1)
faust v. sudgy (2) unv. Arch(2)
chairs v. sudgy (3)
sudgy claims weak modifier to his role
faust unvote sudgy (2)
ashersky v. sudgy (3)
nikirbit v. sudgy (4) unv. Walrus (0)
faust v. Arch (3)
chairs unv. sudgy (3)
walrus v. sudgy (4) unv. nkirbit (0)
chairs v. Galzria (1)
faust v. Walrus (1)
pps unv. sudgy (3)
nkirbit unv. sudgy (2)
2.7 v. xeiron (4)
Joth v. walrus (2)
Walrus v. joth (1) unv. Sudgy (1)
xeiron v. ashersky (1) unv. Arch (2)
nkirbit v. walrus (3)
ashersky v. walrus (4)
walrus v. Arch (3) unv. Joth (0)
xeiron v. Walrus (5) unv. Ashersky (0)
pps v. walrus (6)
Arch v. Walrus (7) unv. Xeiron (3)
Arch unvote Walrus (6)
Arch v. Walrus (7)
xeiron v. ashersky (1) unv. Walrus (6)
faust v. Arch (4) unv. Walrus (5)
nkirbit v. Arch (5) unv.Walrus (4)
Arch v. xeiron (4) unv. Walrus (3)
xeiron v. walrus (4) unv. Ashersky (0)
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I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
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unofficial vote count
Archetype (4): Jimmmmm, Walrus, faust, nkirbit
xeiron (2): sudgy, 2.7...
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (5): jotheonah, ashersky, pingpongsam, xeiron, archetype
Not voting (2): EFHW, Galzria
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The whole, "I thought walrus was towny, now I'm not sure, what the heck lets put him to l-1 anyway reeks to me of scum trying to get that final push while setting up to look innocent tomorrow. If you're really not sure, just don't vote. Being unsure is fine, but why vote then?
I voted because I didn't know when I'd leave (which I thought was then, but is actually right now) and I'd rather have a lynch go through for someone who may flip scum and no lynching if two more votes didn't happen. So I voted.
I've explained myself even though I don't acknowledge anything I did wrong. I'll be gone now until about Sunday, so I won't be able to claim (and I sure as heck am not going to now - once I claim I become practically much weaker). Reads are exactly the same exact Walrus has shifted to a scumread.
I'll plant my vote back on Vote:Walrus. I think you're wrong, EFHW.
Why did you switch to Xeiron and now back to Walrus?
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I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
why don't you like that? Are they supposed to vote like I do?
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I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
I was wrong about xeiron. that was just my bias reading the thread too quickly and putting votes out of order in my mind
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The whole, "I thought walrus was towny, now I'm not sure, what the heck lets put him to l-1 anyway reeks to me of scum trying to get that final push while setting up to look innocent tomorrow. If you're really not sure, just don't vote. Being unsure is fine, but why vote then?
I voted because I didn't know when I'd leave (which I thought was then, but is actually right now) and I'd rather have a lynch go through for someone who may flip scum and no lynching if two more votes didn't happen. So I voted.
I've explained myself even though I don't acknowledge anything I did wrong. I'll be gone now until about Sunday, so I won't be able to claim (and I sure as heck am not going to now - once I claim I become practically much weaker). Reads are exactly the same exact Walrus has shifted to a scumread.
I'll plant my vote back on Vote:Walrus. I think you're wrong, EFHW.
Why did you switch to Xeiron and now back to Walrus?
Because EFHW told me to get off of it. I prefer Xeiron to Walrus, but seeing that its probably going to become a Me VS Walrus thing, I'd rather vote for Walrus since out of the two of us I'm the one who's more likely to flip Town.
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I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
why don't you like that? Are they supposed to vote like I do?
No, it is more I really don't like the lynch, and I am trying to remind again that you mentioned you dont really like it either. As far as River Song goes, I am not a Doctor fanatic, but I have watched the most current seasons and River seems to fit very well with town Roleblocker and vigilante
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The whole, "I thought walrus was towny, now I'm not sure, what the heck lets put him to l-1 anyway reeks to me of scum trying to get that final push while setting up to look innocent tomorrow. If you're really not sure, just don't vote. Being unsure is fine, but why vote then?
I voted because I didn't know when I'd leave (which I thought was then, but is actually right now) and I'd rather have a lynch go through for someone who may flip scum and no lynching if two more votes didn't happen. So I voted.
I've explained myself even though I don't acknowledge anything I did wrong. I'll be gone now until about Sunday, so I won't be able to claim (and I sure as heck am not going to now - once I claim I become practically much weaker). Reads are exactly the same exact Walrus has shifted to a scumread.
I'll plant my vote back on Vote:Walrus. I think you're wrong, EFHW.
Why did you switch to Xeiron and now back to Walrus?
Because EFHW told me to get off of it. I prefer Xeiron to Walrus, but seeing that its probably going to become a Me VS Walrus thing, I'd rather vote for Walrus since out of the two of us I'm the one who's more likely to flip Town.
then vote xeiron. Lets get a lynch there
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sorry i have to run, I will be back in about an hour or so, definitely before deadline
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The whole, "I thought walrus was towny, now I'm not sure, what the heck lets put him to l-1 anyway reeks to me of scum trying to get that final push while setting up to look innocent tomorrow. If you're really not sure, just don't vote. Being unsure is fine, but why vote then?
I voted because I didn't know when I'd leave (which I thought was then, but is actually right now) and I'd rather have a lynch go through for someone who may flip scum and no lynching if two more votes didn't happen. So I voted.
I've explained myself even though I don't acknowledge anything I did wrong. I'll be gone now until about Sunday, so I won't be able to claim (and I sure as heck am not going to now - once I claim I become practically much weaker). Reads are exactly the same exact Walrus has shifted to a scumread.
I'll plant my vote back on Vote:Walrus. I think you're wrong, EFHW.
Why did you switch to Xeiron and now back to Walrus?
Because EFHW told me to get off of it. I prefer Xeiron to Walrus, but seeing that its probably going to become a Me VS Walrus thing, I'd rather vote for Walrus since out of the two of us I'm the one who's more likely to flip Town.
then vote xeiron. Lets get a lynch there
Dude I totally would. But out of xeiron and Walrus, Walrus is the most likely to be lynched at this point. And if I leave my vote on xeiron and aren't able to get back on, the Walrus wagon could need that one vote that I could've provided if I had stayed on his wagon.
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players who have voted Archetype: Jimmmmm, faust, xeiron, sudgy, Walrus, nkirbit
players who have voted xeiron: joth, Archetype, sudgy, chairs, 2.7
players who have voted Walrus: nkirbit, faust, joth, ashersky, xeiron, pps, Archetype
There is no overlap between the people voting Arch and those voting xeiron. The walrus wagon has two Arch voters and two xeiron voters.
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The whole, "I thought walrus was towny, now I'm not sure, what the heck lets put him to l-1 anyway reeks to me of scum trying to get that final push while setting up to look innocent tomorrow. If you're really not sure, just don't vote. Being unsure is fine, but why vote then?
I voted because I didn't know when I'd leave (which I thought was then, but is actually right now) and I'd rather have a lynch go through for someone who may flip scum and no lynching if two more votes didn't happen. So I voted.
I've explained myself even though I don't acknowledge anything I did wrong. I'll be gone now until about Sunday, so I won't be able to claim (and I sure as heck am not going to now - once I claim I become practically much weaker). Reads are exactly the same exact Walrus has shifted to a scumread.
I'll plant my vote back on Vote:Walrus. I think you're wrong, EFHW.
Why did you switch to Xeiron and now back to Walrus?
Because EFHW told me to get off of it. I prefer Xeiron to Walrus, but seeing that its probably going to become a Me VS Walrus thing, I'd rather vote for Walrus since out of the two of us I'm the one who's more likely to flip Town.
It's not a you vs Walrus thing, though. I'd vote elsewhere if someone would make a good case. I'm just very unconvinced with your behavior as of late.. it strikes me like you're trying to gain points for following the IC when you can afford to (when there isn't a wagon on you), but the instant that you start getting some pressure, you're forced back to Walrus because he's the most viable non-you wagon.
I've recently soured a lot on the Walrus lynch. EFHW is right.. it was too easy all day. No one really opposed it at any point until recently. And while I still think that he was a little inconsistent in the reading of myself and Galzria, perhaps that's not that scummy. Maybe scum double checks to see if they're consistent. I don't think town does.
I just didn't see the urgency from you in opposing the Walrus lynch. Your view had been that Xeiron was (and is) your top scumread, right? Switching over to the Walrus wagon because "his claim is scummy" is just mailed in, in my opinion. People were settling for the Walrus lynch, and I think you settled the hardest.
It really looked like the Walrus lynch was, "Meh, whatever"... and that's a symptom of a town lynch.
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The whole, "I thought walrus was towny, now I'm not sure, what the heck lets put him to l-1 anyway reeks to me of scum trying to get that final push while setting up to look innocent tomorrow. If you're really not sure, just don't vote. Being unsure is fine, but why vote then?
I voted because I didn't know when I'd leave (which I thought was then, but is actually right now) and I'd rather have a lynch go through for someone who may flip scum and no lynching if two more votes didn't happen. So I voted.
I've explained myself even though I don't acknowledge anything I did wrong. I'll be gone now until about Sunday, so I won't be able to claim (and I sure as heck am not going to now - once I claim I become practically much weaker). Reads are exactly the same exact Walrus has shifted to a scumread.
I'll plant my vote back on Vote:Walrus. I think you're wrong, EFHW.
Why did you switch to Xeiron and now back to Walrus?
Because EFHW told me to get off of it. I prefer Xeiron to Walrus, but seeing that its probably going to become a Me VS Walrus thing, I'd rather vote for Walrus since out of the two of us I'm the one who's more likely to flip Town.
then vote xeiron. Lets get a lynch there
Dude I totally would. But out of xeiron and Walrus, Walrus is the most likely to be lynched at this point. And if I leave my vote on xeiron and aren't able to get back on, the Walrus wagon could need that one vote that I could've provided if I had stayed on his wagon.
Arch and everyone -- vote for who you really think is scum.
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Faust and e have been very towny lately, IMO. Joth has been scummy.
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EFHW, what do you think about the Archetype lynch? Despite him thinking Xeiron was scum, he was L-1 on Walrus at a point when the day was far from over.
We're not going to no-lynch. If we do, I'll be very upset, but a lot of players will be willing to move votes late to avoid a no-lynch.
I really think we should get the Archetype lynch through. I do think he's scum, no longer think Walrus is scum.
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Vote Count 1.13
Archetype (4): Jimmmmm, Walrus, Faust, Nkirbit
xeiron (2): sudgy, 2.7...,
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (5): jotheonah, ashersky, pingpongsam, Xeiron, Archetype
Not voting (2): EFHW, Yuma
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas).
That's in ~1.5 hours.
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vote:xeiron I guess. Walrus does seem easy. Seems to be a lot of support for xeiron.
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vote:xeiron I guess. Walrus does seem easy. Seems to be a lot of support for xeiron.
But even more for Archetype. Why not archetype?
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So what is the case on Xeiron? Could someone summarize it for me?
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OK:
wife and baby are asleep and I am kinda feeling ok, so going to try and get into this game for a bit.
Have we considered a no lynch? Generally I am against no lynches. But there are two aspects of the game that make me think this could be good. 1. RMM, everyone has a role so day1 let's not kill off one of our roles (which is more likely to happen than a scum lynch) and wait til we have more info 2. the whole time travel thing, which honestly I don't understand and haven't fully read, but could I think be used to help us prevent deaths in the past? So while generally no lynch is bad I think it may be good here.
I won't vote no-lynch right now because we can just time out with a lynch. But if we aren't going to no-lynch my go to lynch right now is vote: jimmmm. I have skimmed the thread and all I can remember from him is posts that say "Promise I will do more in the future" and then never gets done. For me that is enough for a day1 lynch. But I don't know if I want to lynch anyone, just that if we do I think it should be Jimmmm or jotheonah as well... his whole "I have done scummy things, but that is my meta" post rubbed me the wrong way.
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EFHW, what do you think about the Archetype lynch? Despite him thinking Xeiron was scum, he was L-1 on Walrus at a point when the day was far from over.
We're not going to no-lynch. If we do, I'll be very upset, but a lot of players will be willing to move votes late to avoid a no-lynch.
I really think we should get the Archetype lynch through. I do think he's scum, no longer think Walrus is scum.
You want to vote Archetype for voting Walrus, when you did as well?
I looks to me like they could be all town. Thoughts?
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yuma - What do you think about Walrus?
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yuma - What do you think about Walrus?
as everyone will see in the speccy thread I was a part of I found him scummy initially and even voted for him there (not that you can see it now though...) but right now I just don't really see him being all that scummy.
I think some of the things people are accusing him for are silly... the spongebob joke for instance and are inflating the case against him... but I don't know if the people doing that are town or mafia as both alignments tend to do that... inflate cases.
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EFHW, what do you think about the Archetype lynch? Despite him thinking Xeiron was scum, he was L-1 on Walrus at a point when the day was far from over.
We're not going to no-lynch. If we do, I'll be very upset, but a lot of players will be willing to move votes late to avoid a no-lynch.
I really think we should get the Archetype lynch through. I do think he's scum, no longer think Walrus is scum.
You want to vote Archetype for voting Walrus, when you did as well?
I looks to me like they could be all town. Thoughts?
Well, no, I'm not voting him for voting Walrus. I voted for Walrus because I thought he was the likeliest scum at the time I voted. People voting for other people is never scummy by itself.
I'm voting him because of the timing of his vote. He had been pushing the Xeiron case, and it wasn't catching on, but rather than continue to push it, he jumped on the Walrus wagon using the generic reasoning "I don't like his claim". I don't get the people doubting his claim (the character seems scummy? Come on.. that's the worst. It reminds me of people doubting my burglar claim in LOTR2 because "it sounds scummy".. literally my most frustrating moment ever in f.ds mafia). It reads null to me.. but claims under pressure always do in most normal circumstances.
Rather than trying to push for his top scum read, he appeared to settle for Walrus.. settling is a scum trait. I was on Walrus because I thought he was scum. I'm now backing off that, precisely because everyone seems to be okay with that lynch happening. We would see more resistance for a Walrus lynch were he scum, I think. Now I'm creating the resistance!
I don't find everyone on the Walrus wagon scummy. There's assuredly more town than scum there. But I think archetype's final push to end the day on Walrus when town him should have been fighting for Xeiron's lynch was scummy. And he backed it up with "Well.. I'm not sure! But vote!" Unsure town don't move to a player at L-2.. we aren't going to no-lynch.
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vote:xeiron I guess. Walrus does seem easy. Seems to be a lot of support for xeiron.
But even more for Archetype. Why not archetype?
What is even the case against him?
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Nice, a yuma read. I've been contemplating the utility of no-lynch and I think there is merit to it. It has a huge reputation on f.ds for being of negative utility and also for being scummy to even suggest much less push for. Out of the available wagons I definitely favor Walrus. I don't even comprehend the wagon on Archetype. I can wrap my head around the xeiron wagon but I know I can't push it and would only join it to get us away from no-lynch which I am not entirely opposed to so I am not finding the motivation to switch votes.
I am assuming that time travelling in this game will pertain to night actions and that it would not be possible to time travel and reverse a lynch. So, considering that we are statistically far more likely to lynch one of our own on D1 and that would be a non-reversible event maybe no-lynch is a strong D1 play?
I am not exactly pushing it but I am soliciting discussion around the notion as opposed to everyone clapping their hands over their ears and screaming that it must always be the wrong thing to do.
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Would scum want a no lynch?
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vote:xeiron I guess. Walrus does seem easy. Seems to be a lot of support for xeiron.
But even more for Archetype. Why not archetype?
What is even the case against him?
He sheeped onto the Walrus wagon in a scummy wagon. He didn't push for his top scum-read, appeared to settle for Walrus, moved back to Xeiron when the IC asked him to, moved back to Walrus as soon as he started to look like a viable lynch. His votes have seem to been aimed to end the day, get credit for doing what the IC said, and saving himself. Town should be voting to find scum, and his jumping between Xeiron and Archetype, especially at a point where neither of them were online and posting, didn't appear to me to convey that goal.
Did his opinion of Xeiron and Walrus flip-flop multiple times during a period in which neither of them were posting? Or did he move his vote for other reasons than voting his top scumread through.
Town should be fighting to get their preferred lynch through, or at least digging for more information to help them find out who their preferred lynch is. Archetype (and honestly, the town as a whole) seemed to be okay with ending the day on a mediocre lynch. We can do better.
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Would scum want a no lynch?
I would say scum want non-reversible events, aka lynches unless said lynches were against their own.
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We also are an even number right now, so that makes no lynch less terrible. Let's see how this goes.
vote: no lynch
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Would scum want a no lynch?
I have no idea... my gut says they wouldn't want to bring it up theselves because that is a "scummy thing to do" as pps just said, of course I am the one that brought it up so I would be saying that... but I think it is an area that scum knows to avoid but is one that given the constraints of the game is one that we should consider and given the unusual nature of the game is something that I think helps town more than scum in this situation...
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We also are an even number right now, so that makes no lynch less terrible. Let's see how this goes.
vote: no lynch
I am down vote: no lynch
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Sorry, I've been really busy with Christmas and other things. Starting tomorrow, though, I should be better.
Walrus has seemed to be scummy, but I have a reason I don't want to lynch him. I would rather not mention why.
Out of Archetype and xeiron, by quickly skimming their posts, I couldn't see anything great in them. Archetype seems more viable, so Vote: Archetype. Someone could easily change my mind, but I don't know if I'll be on before deadline again.
If my flavor name starts with a:
P: I target xeiron (if lynched, I target Walrus)
D: I target Archetype (if lynched, I target xeiron)
R: I target Walrus (if lynched, I target Archetype)
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Thoughts and reactions to no lynch?
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I would rather lynch myself than no-lynch. I don't want to be dead in the water tomorrow.
Scum will just kill the least relevant town member, and we will have nothing to go on, will surely mislynch tomorrow, Chairs will be a tree stump if he's not lying. It will be 7 to lynch and we will have what, 9 voting town members (assuming 3 man scum team). We are dead in the water unless we get an investigation result, and absolutely screwed if there is a SK or a vig who misfires.
I think we should force scum to make a hard decision. They're probably lurking right now, and gleeful at the fact that we're going to start tomorrow with one less member, one tree stump, and really really hoping a cop got lucky.
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Walrus has seemed to be scummy, but I have a reason I don't want to lynch him. I would rather not mention why.
If you didn't want to mention why you shouldn't have mentioned it at all...
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Even number is not a good reason to no-lynch when someone has claimed tree-stump starting tomorrow, right?
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I would rather lynch myself than no-lynch. I don't want to be dead in the water tomorrow.
Scum will just kill the least relevant town member, and we will have nothing to go on, will surely mislynch tomorrow, Chairs will be a tree stump if he's not lying. It will be 7 to lynch and we will have what, 9 voting town members (assuming 3 man scum team). We are dead in the water unless we get an investigation result, and absolutely screwed if there is a SK or a vig who misfires.
I think we should force scum to make a hard decision. They're probably lurking right now, and gleeful at the fact that we're going to start tomorrow with one less member, one tree stump, and really really hoping a cop got lucky.
How do you know we will have nothing to go on? This is RMM yes? Results, night actions going crazy? Something. And yet still all of the content from today along with a mafia flip--unless it is blocked, something that is very possible. Add in the time travel element which you completely ignore and I don't think any of your points are valid. But if you would rather lynch yourself, feel free to vote yourself... this is the exact sort of reaction I would expect mafia to have.
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nkirbit, having a mislynch today doesn't put us in any better of a position tomorrow, and I currently have no confidence that any of the 3 main candidates are scum.
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vote:xeiron I guess. Walrus does seem easy. Seems to be a lot of support for xeiron.
But even more for Archetype. Why not archetype?
What is even the case against him?
He sheeped onto the Walrus wagon in a scummy wagon. He didn't push for his top scum-read, appeared to settle for Walrus, moved back to Xeiron when the IC asked him to, moved back to Walrus as soon as he started to look like a viable lynch. His votes have seem to been aimed to end the day, get credit for doing what the IC said, and saving himself. Town should be voting to find scum, and his jumping between Xeiron and Archetype, especially at a point where neither of them were online and posting, didn't appear to me to convey that goal.
Did his opinion of Xeiron and Walrus flip-flop multiple times during a period in which neither of them were posting? Or did he move his vote for other reasons than voting his top scumread through.
Town should be fighting to get their preferred lynch through, or at least digging for more information to help them find out who their preferred lynch is. Archetype (and honestly, the town as a whole) seemed to be okay with ending the day on a mediocre lynch. We can do better.
Right, so Town archetype should be voting himself... or should scum Archetype be voting himself? I'm confused because portions of your argument implicate Archetype for not voting himself. I think all of our votes at this point are aimed to end the day as the day is about to end. A Townie working to save himself is a pro-Town behavior so acting in self-preservation isn't a scum-trait. Sheeping the IC for the credit is certainly scummy but sheeping the IC in general isn't immediately scummy. We appear to be at a crossroads and sheeping the one person we can trust for which direction to vote seems fairly pro-town to me.
PPE 9: I find the votes for no-lynch interesting because the no-lynch condition is simply not finding 8 votes on any player.
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I would rather lynch myself than no-lynch. I don't want to be dead in the water tomorrow.
Scum will just kill the least relevant town member, and we will have nothing to go on, will surely mislynch tomorrow, Chairs will be a tree stump if he's not lying. It will be 7 to lynch and we will have what, 9 voting town members (assuming 3 man scum team). We are dead in the water unless we get an investigation result, and absolutely screwed if there is a SK or a vig who misfires.
I think we should force scum to make a hard decision. They're probably lurking right now, and gleeful at the fact that we're going to start tomorrow with one less member, one tree stump, and really really hoping a cop got lucky.
How do you know we will have nothing to go on? This is RMM yes? Results, night actions going crazy? Something. And yet still all of the content from today along with a mafia flip--unless it is blocked, something that is very possible. Add in the time travel element which you completely ignore and I don't think any of your points are valid. But if you would rather lynch yourself, feel free to vote yourself... this is the exact sort of reaction I would expect mafia to have.
I don't know, but it's very possible. If we lynch someone, there's a chance they're mafia, and at the very least, we'll have a wagon to look at. Yeah, we might get a cop, but what if we don't? We're at the same position as today, only we have a lower percentage of the votes.
Town has at least some control over getting a lynch through. There's a chance the night actions just whiff, or are tampered with, or mafia fake-claims, or anything can go wrong. I just think we're banking too much on a good night, when mafia surely have powers to prevent that from happening, and any number of things could go wrong.
But most of us here are town, and we can decide on a lynch right now. We know we can do that. I'd rather take the sure thing than hope the night goes well. It may or may not, but if it doesn't, I think we're in very bad shape tomorrow.
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nkirbit, having a mislynch today doesn't put us in any better of a position tomorrow, and I currently have no confidence that any of the 3 main candidates are scum.
That's true. I would give archetype at least a 50% chance of flipping scum.. if you disagree with those odds, I guess no lynch makes more sense. But I think there's a pretty decent chance he's scum, so I'm going to push for the lynch.
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nkirbit, having a mislynch today doesn't put us in any better of a position tomorrow, and I currently have no confidence that any of the 3 main candidates are scum.
It's one mislynch we can't have Tomorrow.
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nkirbit, having a mislynch today doesn't put us in any better of a position tomorrow, and I currently have no confidence that any of the 3 main candidates are scum.
It's one mislynch we can't have Tomorrow.
??
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nkirbit, having a mislynch today doesn't put us in any better of a position tomorrow, and I currently have no confidence that any of the 3 main candidates are scum.
It's one mislynch we can't have Tomorrow.
??
aka information we otherwise would not have
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nkirbit, having a mislynch today doesn't put us in any better of a position tomorrow, and I currently have no confidence that any of the 3 main candidates are scum.
It's one mislynch we can't have Tomorrow.
??
aka information we otherwise would not have
Right, plus a bunch of stances on someone whose alignment is confirmed.
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I'm okay with a vote: no-lynch.
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I'm willing to switch to Archetype, but I don't buy this claim at all. FTR, I have a null read on Archetype, but would prefer him over a no lynch.
Is this still true?
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Vote Count 1.14
Archetype (5): Jimmmmm, Walrus, Faust, Nkirbit, Sudgy
xeiron (2): 2.7..., Jotheonah
Walrus (4): ashersky, pingpongsam, Xeiron, Archetype
No Lynch (3): EFHW, Yuma, Chairs
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends on Friday, December 27 at 530 PM forum time (two days added due to the original deadline falling on Christmas).
That's in 40 minutes.
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We also are an even number right now, so that makes no lynch less terrible. Let's see how this goes.
vote: no lynch
This is wrong. We likely don't get 1 kill per night, as this is RMM, so the even number thingy doesn't work. You need to vote. I'm off for today. I really hope you lynch someone.
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I think we should lynch today.
Our goal is to kill scum. Our weapon is the lynch, and I think we should use every chance we have to try kill scum.
It is difficult to guess how parity is going to end up in this game, but if we are unlucky we get on less attempt at hitting scum by no-lynching, than we would if we lynch.
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I won't vote for the current wagons. Those of you with strong opinions should feel free to go ahead and vote accordingly.
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I think we should lynch today.
Our goal is to kill scum. Our weapon is the lynch, and I think we should use every chance we have to try kill scum.
It is difficult to guess how parity is going to end up in this game, but if we are unlucky we get on less attempt at hitting scum by no-lynching, than we would if we lynch.
my argument has nothing to do with parity. It has to do with RMM--lots and lots of roles out there and the time traveling element, boiling down the no-lynch argument to a parity one is ignoring the rest of the issue (and the biggest ones) at hand.
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vote:xeiron I guess. Walrus does seem easy. Seems to be a lot of support for xeiron.
But even more for Archetype. Why not archetype?
What is even the case against him?
He sheeped onto the Walrus wagon in a scummy wagon. He didn't push for his top scum-read, appeared to settle for Walrus, moved back to Xeiron when the IC asked him to, moved back to Walrus as soon as he started to look like a viable lynch. His votes have seem to been aimed to end the day, get credit for doing what the IC said, and saving himself. Town should be voting to find scum, and his jumping between Xeiron and Archetype, especially at a point where neither of them were online and posting, didn't appear to me to convey that goal.
Did his opinion of Xeiron and Walrus flip-flop multiple times during a period in which neither of them were posting? Or did he move his vote for other reasons than voting his top scumread through.
Town should be fighting to get their preferred lynch through, or at least digging for more information to help them find out who their preferred lynch is. Archetype (and honestly, the town as a whole) seemed to be okay with ending the day on a mediocre lynch. We can do better.
All that is after his wagon already existed!
No lynch is a bad idea. I can't believe we're having this argument at T-45 minutes.
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I won't vote for the current wagons. Those of you with strong opinions should feel free to go ahead and vote accordingly.
agreed. Like I said above if we are going to vote for somone it should be jimmm or joth... I'll go back and vote: jimmmm since no lynch can happen without a vote for it via timing out
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Deadline in 30 minutes!
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No lynch is a bad idea. I can't believe we're having this argument at T-45 minutes.
why is it bad. Explain why aside from general assumptions that it is bad from games that don't have a RMM or time travel element?
And yes it should have been had earlier, but unfortunately I wasn't around to introduce it and no one else was willing to think outside the box.
vote: jotheonah
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I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
I do not like this post from e. We should not be simply sheeping the IC. If you disagree with what EFHW says there's absolutely no problem with that. What's much worse is if she says something and we all take it as gospel truth, depriving us of important stances from people. An IC is a great asset to Town, but can also be manipulated by scum. When I'm scum, I tend to make an IC my best friend.
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Yuma, the reason I'm against a no-lynch is that it
A) Doesn't give us a wagon to analyze tomorrow. We're really banking on a good night tonight if we no-lynch, and if it doesn't come, we're in the same position tomorrow but with a lower percentage of the votes. And it's not like town have 9 PRs and scum 0.. scum is going to have stuff to do as well.
B) No-lynching allows scum to not have to make hard decisions. Supporting a no-lynch, especially when it's IC backed, isn't a controversial move, and we want to force scum to have to make a decision at some point. I also think we shouldn't allow scum to get a night chat before making this decision... if we hold off on the lynch, we're essentially calling halftime, but only scum gets a team chat to make plans for the next day! Town just gets 1 less member (or maybe even more! or less! But almost definitely at least 1 town death).
C) I do think archetype is scum.
I know that you disagree with C, but do you disagree with A and B? Or do you just think that the chances of us getting a good night are high enough that it's worth risking it?
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I dont have a problem with EFHW not voting on a wagon, because it gives us more people on wagon to discuss, but I do think that we need a lynch. And because of that I think EFHW needs to vote.
I will not vote Walrus.
Archetype is a much more reasonable lynch in my mind. His behavior after the claim (L-1 vote, unvote, then back to L-1) was interesting and as was pointed out, seems a little scummy
vote: archetype
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No lynch is a bad idea. I can't believe we're having this argument at T-45 minutes.
why is it bad. Explain why aside from general assumptions that it is bad from games that don't have a RMM or time travel element?
And yes it should have been had earlier, but unfortunately I wasn't around to introduce it and no one else was willing to think outside the box.
vote: jotheonah
It is bad for the reasons it is always bad. The lynch is the town's weapon. No lynch is us choosing not to use our weapon. Scum will certainly choose to use their weapon. We have more information than the average day 1. We can and should lynch.
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I really really wish my choice was not between Archetype and no lynch.
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No lynch is a bad idea. I can't believe we're having this argument at T-45 minutes.
why is it bad. Explain why aside from general assumptions that it is bad from games that don't have a RMM or time travel element?
And yes it should have been had earlier, but unfortunately I wasn't around to introduce it and no one else was willing to think outside the box.
vote: jotheonah
But how do we know that the time travel element is going to favor town? Maybe it will favor scum? We just can't know!
What we do know is that we can get a lynch through that is (mostly) town controlled. I'd rather take the sure thing than bet that town is able to outmaneuver scum at night. Especially since we've had what, four claims? The last game I played where everyone had a PR, scum obliterated town in part because they destroyed them in night actions, and all the claiming allowed scum to do so. We've already had a decent amount of claims.. I think that pushes the night balance even more towards scum's favor.
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but with 20 minutes to go...
Vote: Archetype
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Archetype has the most votes. And I think we need a lynch.
Vote: Archetype {L-1}
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I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
I do not like this post from e. We should not be simply sheeping the IC. If you disagree with what EFHW says there's absolutely no problem with that. What's much worse is if she says something and we all take it as gospel truth, depriving us of important stances from people. An IC is a great asset to Town, but can also be manipulated by scum. When I'm scum, I tend to make an IC my best friend.
Meh... he said it after EFHW said that walrus wasn't happening:
Y I'm at Sea World, shamu says hi. This walrus lynch is happening too easily. Someone unvote invite, anyone hammering early will be considered scum
Someone please reread other players and find us a new wagon to compete with this one. I'm on phone, iffy access atm. Back later
But the players listed above 2.7 says went contrary to what she asked. I am all for players not relying on the IC, but once she says something (whether right or wrong) players need to respect that... see me not listening to the IC in Toy Story for an example. 2.7 is backing the IC at a timew hen the IC wasn't around to back herself as she was at sea world and on the mobile, nothing scummy about that.
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I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
I do not like this post from e. We should not be simply sheeping the IC. If you disagree with what EFHW says there's absolutely no problem with that. What's much worse is if she says something and we all take it as gospel truth, depriving us of important stances from people. An IC is a great asset to Town, but can also be manipulated by scum. When I'm scum, I tend to make an IC my best friend.
Yeah, just sheeping the IC is not good you need to think for yourself. I also added this for clarification:I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
why don't you like that? Are they supposed to vote like I do?
No, it is more I really don't like the lynch, and I am trying to remind again that you mentioned you dont really like it either. As far as River Song goes, I am not a Doctor fanatic, but I have watched the most current seasons and River seems to fit very well with town Roleblocker and vigilante
Basically I mentioned the IC as additional reason why we should NOT vote walrus because when I got back on I saw a bunch of post-claim walrus votes and got scared we just lynched river song
PPE:5
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I would vote for Joth. But I prefer Archetype.
Jimm I honestly haven't looked it. I would do it over no-lynch, but not before Archetype certainly.
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That was the lynch. Didn't see joths vote there.
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Vote Count 1.Final
Archetype ( 8 ): Jimmmmm, Walrus, Faust, Nkirbit, Sudgy, 2.7, Jotheonah, Xeiron
Walrus (3): ashersky, pingpongsam, Archetype
No Lynch (2): EFHW, Chairs
Jotheonah (1): Yuma
With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.
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Enjoy your twilight!
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Yeah, that was the hammer. Hope I'm right.
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I do not like a Walrus lynch.
And I do not like how Archetype and Xeiron have both jumped on it the way that they have even after EFHW came out against it.
I do not like this post from e. We should not be simply sheeping the IC. If you disagree with what EFHW says there's absolutely no problem with that. What's much worse is if she says something and we all take it as gospel truth, depriving us of important stances from people. An IC is a great asset to Town, but can also be manipulated by scum. When I'm scum, I tend to make an IC my best friend.
Meh... he said it after EFHW said that walrus wasn't happening:
Y I'm at Sea World, shamu says hi. This walrus lynch is happening too easily. Someone unvote invite, anyone hammering early will be considered scum
Someone please reread other players and find us a new wagon to compete with this one. I'm on phone, iffy access atm. Back later
But the players listed above 2.7 says went contrary to what she asked. I am all for players not relying on the IC, but once she says something (whether right or wrong) players need to respect that... see me not listening to the IC in Toy Story for an example. 2.7 is backing the IC at a timew hen the IC wasn't around to back herself as she was at sea world and on the mobile, nothing scummy about that.
After seeing what EFHW actually said I agree.
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Yuma, the reason I'm against a no-lynch is that it
A) Doesn't give us a wagon to analyze tomorrow. We're really banking on a good night tonight if we no-lynch, and if it doesn't come, we're in the same position tomorrow but with a lower percentage of the votes. And it's not like town have 9 PRs and scum 0.. scum is going to have stuff to do as well.
B) No-lynching allows scum to not have to make hard decisions. Supporting a no-lynch, especially when it's IC backed, isn't a controversial move, and we want to force scum to have to make a decision at some point. I also think we shouldn't allow scum to get a night chat before making this decision... if we hold off on the lynch, we're essentially calling halftime, but only scum gets a team chat to make plans for the next day! Town just gets 1 less member (or maybe even more! or less! But almost definitely at least 1 town death).
C) I do think archetype is scum.
I know that you disagree with C, but do you disagree with A and B? Or do you just think that the chances of us getting a good night are high enough that it's worth risking it?
A - big deal. Like the wagons we may have will give us anything that is super relevant. Any good scum can manipulate that to death and have it end up in their advantage. Role results are solid, generally speaking bus driver and godfathers mess with this, and can be relyed on and aren't up for manipulation
B - Again I see your point, but I think the opposing is that we give scum a half time but with 2 dead townies as the most likely result.
C - I don't see any reason he should be scummier than the next person.
PPE: lame
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Yeah, that was the hammer. Hope I'm right.
I hope so too. At least no one can say that lynch was too easy.
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Also I think a mass claim is in order first thing tomorrow.
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Also I think a mass claim is in order first thing tomorrow.
Well, we'll discuss that tomorrow, I'm sure, but care to say why? I'm not opposed to it, but I don't think we should do so without a reason.
In most of the games I've played, claiming has hurt town when it happens earlier. Why do you think it'd be different here?
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Also I think a mass claim is in order first thing tomorrow.
good to have yuma around
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Wow yuma is scummy right now.
Like the wagons we may have will give us anything that is super relevant. Any good scum can manipulate that to death and have it end up in their advantage. Role results are solid, generally speaking bus driver and godfathers mess with this, and can be relyed on and aren't up for manipulation
Basically saying that the only way to play mafia is to sheep power roles, our own deduction is useless. And then he advocates a day 2 role claim in role madness. Wow.
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Wow yuma is scummy right now.
Like the wagons we may have will give us anything that is super relevant. Any good scum can manipulate that to death and have it end up in their advantage. Role results are solid, generally speaking bus driver and godfathers mess with this, and can be relyed on and aren't up for manipulation
Basically saying that the only way to play mafia is to sheep power roles, our own deduction is useless. And then he advocates a day 2 role claim in role madness. Wow.
also auto vote: joth tomorrow.
the time traveling element I think makes having more information in the hands of town a good thing.
i don't get why people arne't considering the time traveling part at all and why people are auto-reverting to thinking that everything we normally consider bad to be bad w/o considering the setup! Especially joth!
he is playing the I am town and thinking rationally card to the extreme! Someone should vig him please.
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Wow yuma is scummy right now.
Like the wagons we may have will give us anything that is super relevant. Any good scum can manipulate that to death and have it end up in their advantage. Role results are solid, generally speaking bus driver and godfathers mess with this, and can be relyed on and aren't up for manipulation
Basically saying that the only way to play mafia is to sheep power roles, our own deduction is useless. And then he advocates a day 2 role claim in role madness. Wow.
yeah, but he has a plan. and we can work with that. argue with that. so that is awesome
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I don't think Yuma is scummy right now at all. He saw what the thought was the best course for town (No-lynching), and pushed for it. It may not be what everyone agrees with, but I don't think he's scummy at all for pushing no-lynch.
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Wow yuma is scummy right now.
Like the wagons we may have will give us anything that is super relevant. Any good scum can manipulate that to death and have it end up in their advantage. Role results are solid, generally speaking bus driver and godfathers mess with this, and can be relyed on and aren't up for manipulation
Basically saying that the only way to play mafia is to sheep power roles, our own deduction is useless. And then he advocates a day 2 role claim in role madness. Wow.
also auto vote: joth tomorrow.
the time traveling element I think makes having more information in the hands of town a good thing.
i don't get why people arne't considering the time traveling part at all and why people are auto-reverting to thinking that everything we normally consider bad to be bad w/o considering the setup! Especially joth!
he is playing the I am town and thinking rationally card to the extreme! Someone should vig him please.
Yes, by all means direct the power roles. I knew there was a textbook cum play you hadn't hit yet.
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*scum
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Wow yuma is scummy right now.
Like the wagons we may have will give us anything that is super relevant. Any good scum can manipulate that to death and have it end up in their advantage. Role results are solid, generally speaking bus driver and godfathers mess with this, and can be relyed on and aren't up for manipulation
Basically saying that the only way to play mafia is to sheep power roles, our own deduction is useless. And then he advocates a day 2 role claim in role madness. Wow.
and I am not saying our own deduction is useless, but rather than in light of the many power roles that I suppose we have it is far inferior. Why rely on something that is fallible when you have something that is infallible (or very close to it)?
sure rely on deduction if that is all you have, but in this context it is not even close to all that we have.
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Any twilight words from Archetype?
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well yuma is certainly out of the box today.
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At least let us know what role we just disposed of.
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well yuma is certainly out of the box today.
You have to be in RMM. Otherwise you are going to get screwed. RMM favors mafia in my opinion if town plays it like a normal game. You have to get creative and try to figure out how to use the game to your advantage cause you had better believe that mafia has already figured out how to do so...
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I don't think Yuma is scummy right now at all. He saw what the thought was the best course for town (No-lynching), and pushed for it. It may not be what everyone agrees with, but I don't think he's scummy at all for pushing no-lynch.
he's scummy for (1) downplaying our ability to make deductions the normal way, which is always a factor, even in role madness, (2) advocating a mass claim on day 2, which if the game is even remotely well-designed is anti-town, and (3) instructing the power roles.
Mafia is a social deduction game. Roles are always icing on the cake. The gameplay happens during the day, when we talk and vote.
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Anyways, I am out for the day. Hopefully arch does flip scum, but I for one won't be holding my breath and F5ing all day waiting to find out.
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Well, if Archetype is in fact town, do we want him to spill exactly how his role works? We'll get a flip, but probably not exact info on how his role works... do we want to give both scum and town that info or hide it from both parties?
I have no idea which is better.
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Looks like I missed the lynch. Here's hoping.
I have no idea what to do with my powers btw. I guess I'll figure it out!
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I don't think Yuma is scummy right now at all. He saw what the thought was the best course for town (No-lynching), and pushed for it. It may not be what everyone agrees with, but I don't think he's scummy at all for pushing no-lynch.
he's scummy for (1) downplaying our ability to make deductions the normal way, which is always a factor, even in role madness, (2) advocating a mass claim on day 2, which if the game is even remotely well-designed is anti-town, and (3) instructing the power roles.
Mafia is a social deduction game. Roles are always icing on the cake. The gameplay happens during the day, when we talk and vote.
You're right for a normal game, but not necessarily an RMM game. I remember Yuma and Ash telling me at one point that the difference between RMM and Normal games is that RMM focuses more on nights while normal games focus on the days. Given that outlook, I don't think it's unreasonable for Yuma to say, "Let's use the night to our advantage".
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That Arch is silent makes me think there is a good possibility we got a lucky lynch in...
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I don't think Yuma is scummy right now at all. He saw what the thought was the best course for town (No-lynching), and pushed for it. It may not be what everyone agrees with, but I don't think he's scummy at all for pushing no-lynch.
he's scummy for (1) downplaying our ability to make deductions the normal way, which is always a factor, even in role madness, (2) advocating a mass claim on day 2, which if the game is even remotely well-designed is anti-town, and (3) instructing the power roles.
Mafia is a social deduction game. Roles are always icing on the cake. The gameplay happens during the day, when we talk and vote.
You're right for a normal game, but not necessarily an RMM game. I remember Yuma and Ash telling me at one point that the difference between RMM and Normal games is that RMM focuses more on nights while normal games focus on the days. Given that outlook, I don't think it's unreasonable for Yuma to say, "Let's use the night to our advantage".
Sure. I agree with that. But he's also saying "let's not use the day to our advantage."
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I think Jotheonah has a point in the mass-claim discussion.
In certain games a early massclaim really favors scum. Innovation for one, and i think this one too.
Time traveling is a concept that makes it hard to keep track of what is happening, and if scum knows all the town time travel roles, but manages to keep one or two hidden themselves, i believe they can really mess with us.
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Arch had to go, so I don't think we'll hear from him. And he's got to be sick of being Day 1 lynched.
We definitely want to maximize the information we can glean from the night.
I'll be thinking about the mass claim idea. Coordination may be key to making the most of the time travel element. It also gives scum some manipulation opportunities. If we do mass claim, I'll want to specify an order, with chairs' help if he is confirmed town tree stump.
So please do not spontaneously claim Day 2!
xeiron - if town had full claimed in Innovation we could have made use of the powers. It was the partial claiming that did us in. We got no benefit and only harm from it. And it turned out scum got the revolver on their own without town claims, so bad luck was also a factor.
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(and the vig shooting the bomb)
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ugh, that vig-bomb thing was terrible, and then ALL DEM REVOLVERS.
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Here. Caught up. Seems it didn't matter.
Don't like the way arch was lynched. It seems walrus was saved by "that wagon wuz too eazy" arguments, and then arch just shot up out of nowhere based on him voting walrus.
The no lynch talk was ludicrous though, so better arch than that.
Vigs shouldn't shoot, no? Walrus is most likely fake claiming, though. Talk about a provided fake claim (or just straight scum claiming with town alignment). Yeesh.
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Walrus has seemed to be scummy, but I have a reason I don't want to lynch him. I would rather not mention why.
If you didn't want to mention why you shouldn't have mentioned it at all...
I needed to explain why I didn't vote for him.
Also, I'm still not sure about the Arch lynch, but oh well, I guess. We'll see what happens.
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Arch had to go, so I don't think we'll hear from him. And he's got to be sick of being Day 1 lynched.
Aint that the truth.
I was Rose Tyler, The bus Driver.
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are you saying you were town? I have to say, we may be better off without a bus driver.
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I needed to explain why I didn't vote for him.
No. You didn't. At least not that way.
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The no lynch talk was ludicrous though, so better arch than that.
Again why? Other than it was an idea that was proposed by someone other than you? Or the general rationale?
I guess we don't need to get into this conversation unless you are implying that those who were putting it forward were doing so in a malicious way.... which is how I am interpreting this statement... because why else would you say it at this juncture?
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I don't think Yuma is scummy right now at all. He saw what the thought was the best course for town (No-lynching), and pushed for it. It may not be what everyone agrees with, but I don't think he's scummy at all for pushing no-lynch.
he's scummy for (1) downplaying our ability to make deductions the normal way, which is always a factor, even in role madness, (2) advocating a mass claim on day 2, which if the game is even remotely well-designed is anti-town, and (3) instructing the power roles.
Mafia is a social deduction game. Roles are always icing on the cake. The gameplay happens during the day, when we talk and vote.
You're right for a normal game, but not necessarily an RMM game. I remember Yuma and Ash telling me at one point that the difference between RMM and Normal games is that RMM focuses more on nights while normal games focus on the days. Given that outlook, I don't think it's unreasonable for Yuma to say, "Let's use the night to our advantage".
Sure. I agree with that. But he's also saying "let's not use the day to our advantage."
No I am not.
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xeiron - if town had full claimed in Innovation we could have made use of the powers. It was the partial claiming that did us in. We got no benefit and only harm from it. And it turned out scum got the revolver on their own without town claims, so bad luck was also a factor.
exactly, emphasis on the mass claim, not the random I'll claim cause I in my limited sphere think it is a good idea. Random claiming is rarely good, coordinated claiming is what is effective if any claiming is going to be effective and is what will potentially out scum.
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The no lynch talk was ludicrous though, so better arch than that.
Again why? Other than it was an idea that was proposed by someone other than you? Or the general rationale?
I guess we don't need to get into this conversation unless you are implying that those who were putting it forward were doing so in a malicious way.... which is how I am interpreting this statement... because why else would you say it at this juncture?
I think the day going full to the deadline, or almost as far, and not ending in a lynch, helped scum much more than town.
No info going into D2 is terrible for town. Given it is RMM, what happens at night isn't certain, or even easily figured out. What happens during the day, including who votes who, who lynched who, who got lynched, etc., is what we have to go on.
No lynch on D1 just is not good for town.
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xeiron - if town had full claimed in Innovation we could have made use of the powers. It was the partial claiming that did us in. We got no benefit and only harm from it. And it turned out scum got the revolver on their own without town claims, so bad luck was also a factor.
exactly, emphasis on the mass claim, not the random I'll claim cause I in my limited sphere think it is a good idea. Random claiming is rarely good, coordinated claiming is what is effective if any claiming is going to be effective and is what will potentially out scum.
I also agree a mass claim is in our best interest. That's how we can "beat" a set up that is closed, too. I would refer you to DoMafia for a great example.
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Well at least we agree on something.
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THREAD LOCKED
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Have you reached a decision? You've decided not to decide. I'm not sure if that's ever happened before. I may need to speak with my manager - oh, Archetype? Excellent. We'll send him out for processing and let you know the results. Enjoy your night in the time-space regulator. The chronostat has been acting up lately, so let me know if you if you drift into a decade you don't like.
Archetype was Davros, the mafia-aligned Busdriver.
Night actions are due in 24 hours. Day 2 will start in 48 hours. All players must PM both myself and mail-mi with their N1 check-in.
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Due to my own LA during N1, I am extending the night action submission deadline and the D2 start slightly. N1 check-ins/actions are now due on Sunday, December 29 at 10 PM. D2 will start at noon on Monday, December 30. I will be back to normal after that, I promise.
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I hope you all slept well. We were most impressed by your actions yesterday. Unfortunately you may note that another of you is missing, and it's a bit unfortunate. It seems that you've simply transferred the Time War into the regulator, as the second person to die fought for a different side. sudgy was Rory Williams, the town-aligned hated weak Doctor.
D2 start - thread UNLOCKED!
Vote Count 2.0
Not voting (11): ashersky, EFHW, faust, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, nkirbit, pingpongsam, Walrus, xeiron, yuma, 2.71828.....
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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Grr, why didn't sudgy do his starting letter thing as he promised? I mean, I guess it's most likely that scum killed him, but still.
Also, it appears chairs actually got stumped. But without flip. Interesting.
Mod question: Is it correct that chairs is missing from the vote list? Are we able to vote chairs?
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Mod question: Is it correct that chairs is missing from the vote list? Are we able to vote chairs?
The list of living players is correct. Only votes for living players, or no-lynch, count.
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Well, actually, it's quite possible that scum just didn't kill last night. Or, I mean, they killed later. Maybe they traveled to a future night and killed then, and will come back to N1 later.
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Anyway, Vote: Joth
I'm catching up. I have sort of been going back and forth between walrus and faust, I think one is town and one is scum. I think I may have my vote on the wrong one.
Walrus's case against me is fine. Wrong, but fine. If anything, it makes me think Walrus is more likely to be town. I have been acting kind of anti-town. Posting a lot, not contributing as much as I should. This is kind of my day 1 meta. I'm really bad at the grasping at straws part of this game that is day 1.
And then there's this:
Alright, I'm leaving for today. Hope we somehow get a lynch in. pingpongsam, nkirbit: vote! EFHW: You should push town towards a lynch, maybe even as far as stating an "IC-approved" lynch if necessary. I hope that town manages this without such means, but I am a little afraid of a no lynch at the moment.
I'm always nervous when someone refers to "town" as if they are not part of it. Weaksauce, but worth noting.
My biggest scumread right now is actually nkirbit. That whole "I'm fine with a lynch, but I'm not actually voting thing" allows one to keep one's options open and not look like a trigger happy voter.
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And then I read Walrus's claim. I actually don't like it AT ALL. Vig and roleblocker are both scummy powers! And River Song is a bad guy on the show! Could he have claimed a scummier claim? I'm willing to switch to Archetype, but I don't buy this claim at all. FTR, I have a null read on Archetype, but would prefer him over a no lynch.
Immediately after two players move to archetype, he comes in and tries to make sure that the lynch ends up either on Xeiron on Walrus.
vote:xeiron I guess. Walrus does seem easy. Seems to be a lot of support for xeiron.
Completely ignoring the Archetype wagon, despite it being at 4 votes, with Xeiron only at 2 votes as this point.
I'm willing to switch to Archetype, but I don't buy this claim at all. FTR, I have a null read on Archetype, but would prefer him over a no lynch.
Is this still true?
He only moved over to Archetype after I pointed this out, because as it turned out, his choice was between Archetype and no-lynch. And knowing that Archetype is scum, the above statement is pretty scummy. "Well, I would lynch this scum player, but I really don't want to..". I don't think Joth was planning to vote Archetype at all, but got forced to because of the way the day unfolded.
Joth was on Walrus, trying to convince us that one of Walrus and Xeiron was scum. After EFHW broke up the Walrus wagon, he tried to move over to Xeiron, justifying his vote with "there appears to be a lot of support", despite the archetype wagon having two more voters at that point. The Xeiron wagon didn't go through, he couldn't no-lynch given his previous statements, and was forced to move over to archetype at the last minute.
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Walrus has seemed to be scummy, but I have a reason I don't want to lynch him. I would rather not mention why.
Do you think this is Sudgy breadcrumming that he's going to doctor Walrus? Could be, but I would certainly not want to lynch someone based on it.
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P: I target xeiron (if lynched, I target Walrus)
D: I target Archetype (if lynched, I target xeiron)
R: I target Walrus (if lynched, I target Archetype)
Oh wait, he told us. He did target Walrus.
Hm. Did we really run up our two biggest wagons on scum? That just can't have happened...
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P: I target xeiron (if lynched, I target Walrus)
D: I target Archetype (if lynched, I target xeiron)
R: I target Walrus (if lynched, I target Archetype)
Oh wait, he told us. He did target Walrus.
Hm. Did we really run up our two biggest wagons on scum? That just can't have happened...
Scum could very well have seen that post, known that xeiron and Walrus were both town, and NKed sudgy. I am not comfortable lynching someone because of this, although it does not help their case.
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P: I target xeiron (if lynched, I target Walrus)
D: I target Archetype (if lynched, I target xeiron)
R: I target Walrus (if lynched, I target Archetype)
Oh wait, he told us. He did target Walrus.
Hm. Did we really run up our two biggest wagons on scum? That just can't have happened...
Scum could very well have seen that post, known that xeiron and Walrus were both town, and NKed sudgy. I am not comfortable lynching someone because of this, although it does not help their case.
I just wish he had done a full list of players. wouldn't have been too hard to assign random letters of the alphabet
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P: I target xeiron (if lynched, I target Walrus)
D: I target Archetype (if lynched, I target xeiron)
R: I target Walrus (if lynched, I target Archetype)
Oh wait, he told us. He did target Walrus.
Hm. Did we really run up our two biggest wagons on scum? That just can't have happened...
Scum could very well have seen that post, known that xeiron and Walrus were both town, and NKed sudgy. I am not comfortable lynching someone because of this, although it does not help their case.
Yeah, that's certainly possible. Especially considering that we nearly lynched Walrus, and did lynch Archetype.. I just can't believe that they're both scum.
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Great job Day 1 everyone. A good example why not to sheep the IC!
I do not want us to claim today. We're doing well as it is, and we don't have any puzzles to solve currently anyway. So, only people with positive investigative results should claim, at the time they deem best.
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I also think we should start with people who were off the Archetype wagon in looking for lynch targets for today.
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looking at it now, I see that is ashersky, pps and yuma.
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We should also look at the late Arch voters, which include 2.7, Joth and Xeiron. I'm not currently accusing any of these people as being scum, and haven't reread anyone yet, but I think those 6 are where we are most likely to find scum.
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Great job Day 1 everyone. A good example why not to sheep the IC!
I do not want us to claim today. We're doing well as it is, and we don't have any puzzles to solve currently anyway. So, only people with positive investigative results should claim, at the time they deem best.
That is fine, I also think a scum lynch day1 is good enough reason to push back mass claiming
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The absence of a second death overnight makes it hard to know what sudgy's death means.
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I also think we should start with people who were off the Archetype wagon in looking for lynch targets for today.
start yes, but this line of thought has gotten us into deep trouble before in bankers and MXI where scum was lynched day1. We thought partners wouldn't have bussed, but turns out a lot did and we nearly lost MXI because of this thought and did lose Bankers because of this...
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I'm down. vote: joth
I also think his posts against me at the end of yesterday have some veiled frustration at being forced to lynch his own partner day1.
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Updated, color-coded Day 1 voting records.
sudgy v. EFHW (rvs)
2.7 v. Joth (RVS)
Ashersky v. sudgy (rvs)
Archetype v. Joth(RVS)
sudgy v. ashersky
2.7 v. Archetype (rvs)
EFHW v. sudgy (2)
Archetype v. ashersky (2) [unv. Joth (0)]
Jimmmmm v. sudgy (3)
Jimmmmm v. Archetype (2) [unv. sudgy (2)]
faust v. Archetype (3)
EFHW unv. sudgy (1)
Archetype unv. ash (1)
Joth v. ash (2)
sudgy unv. ash (1)
xeiron v. Archeype (4)
sudgy v. Archetype (5)
2.7 unv. Archetype (4)
Joth v. xeiron (1) [unv. Ash (0)]
Archetype v. xeiron (2)
sudgy v. xeiron (3) [unv. Archetype (3)]
Walrus v. sudgy (2)
ashersky unv. sudgy (1)
chairs v. xeiron (4)
faust v. joth (1) [unv. Archetype (2)]
walrus v. nkirbit (1) [unv. sudgy(0)]
nkirbit v. Walrus (1)
faust v. Archetype (3) unv. Joth (0)
Joth v. nkirbit (2) unv. Xeiron (3)
pps v. sudgy (1)
faust v. sudgy (2) unv. Archetype(2)
chairs v. sudgy (3)
sudgy claims weak modifier to his role
faust unv. sudgy (2)
ashersky v. sudgy (3)
nikirbit v. sudgy (4) unv. Walrus (0)
faust v. Archetype (3)
chairs unv. sudgy (3)
walrus v. sudgy (4) unv. nkirbit (0)
chairs v. Galzria (1)
faust v. Walrus (1)
pps unv. sudgy (3)
nkirbit unv. sudgy (2)
2.7 v. xeiron (4)
Joth v. walrus (2)
Walrus v. joth (1) unv. sudgy (1)
xeiron v. ashersky (1) unv. Archetype (2)
nkirbit v. walrus (3)
ashersky v. walrus (4)
walrus v. Archetype (3) unv. Joth (0)
xeiron v. Walrus (5) unv. Ashersky (0)
pps v. walrus (6)
Archetype v. Walrus (7) unv. Xeiron (3)
Archetype unv. Walrus (6)
Archetype v. Walrus (7)
xeiron v. ashersky (1) unv. Walrus (6)
faust v. Archetype (4) unv. Walrus (5)
nkirbit v. Archetype (5) unv.Walrus (4)
Archetype v. xeiron (4) unv. Walrus (3)
xeiron v. walrus (4) unv. Ashersky (0)
Archetype v. walrus (5) unv. Xeiron (3)
joth v. xeiron (4)
yuma v. Jimmmmm (1)
EFHW v. no lynch
yuma v. no lynch (2) [unv. Jimmmmm (0)]
sudgy v. Archetype (5) unv. Xeiron (3)
chairs v. no lynch (3) unv. Yuma (0)
yuma v. Jimmmmm (1) unv. no lynch (2)
yuma v. Joth (1) unv. Jimmmmm(0)
2.7 v. Archetype (6) unv. xeiron (2)
Joth v. Archetype (7) unv. xeiron (1)
xeiron (derp?)hammers Archetype (eight) unv. Walrus (3)
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I'm down. vote: joth
I also think his posts against me at the end of yesterday have some veiled frustration at being forced to lynch his own partner day1.
I'm actually unsure about this. This is the bit that's making me the most uneasy about this vote... would scum!Joth really do that? On one hand, I can see it as sort of trying to set the agenda tomorrow... "Let's lynch Yuma, he's anti-town!". I know in the past you and others have found people scummy for trying to do so, whether it be at the start of the day or the end of the last day... Liopoil in Back to Basics and Theorel in Dynasty Warriors are two examples of scum doing this that come to mind.
But the thing that's giving me pause is the fact that he was just so forward about it. Were he scum, he would have known that his actions as the Archetype wagon built up were at least a little bit incriminating, and spending time yelling at Yuma about the no-lynch just seems risky and unproductive. Are we really going to lynch Yuma for pushing no-lynch, especially when it's something that EFHW supported? Surely he's going to at least draw a little of attention to himself for that crusade (and he in fact did, with you promising to vote him the next day...). Is it really worth it for Joth to fight that fight were he scum? I'm not convinced.
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Archetype's main actions yesterday were on the Xeiron and Walrus wagons. Strong town points for both those players in my book.
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Archetype v. Walrus (7) unv. Xeiron (3)
Archetype unv. Walrus (6)
Archetype v. Walrus (7)
I totally believe Walrus right now. Some things I thought about overnight:
1) There is absolutely no way someone fake-claims River Song. I have only watched the Matt Smith Dr. Who episodes, but she is way to important to be handed out as a fake-claim for scum to use.
2) Archetype would believe the claim if Walrus were his scum partner.
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players who have voted Archetype: Jimmmmm, faust, xeiron, sudgy, Walrus, nkirbit
players who have voted xeiron: joth, Archetype, sudgy, chairs, 2.7
players who have voted Walrus: nkirbit, faust, joth, ashersky, xeiron, pps, Archetype
There is no overlap between the people voting Arch and those voting xeiron. The walrus wagon has two Arch voters and two xeiron voters.
It could be helpful to look at this again.
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P: I target xeiron (if lynched, I target Walrus)
D: I target Archetype (if lynched, I target xeiron)
R: I target Walrus (if lynched, I target Archetype)
Oh wait, he told us. He did target Walrus.
Hm. Did we really run up our two biggest wagons on scum? That just can't have happened...
Scum could very well have seen that post, known that xeiron and Walrus were both town, and NKed sudgy. I am not comfortable lynching someone because of this, although it does not help their case.
I just wish he had done a full list of players. wouldn't have been too hard to assign random letters of the alphabet
How would that have helped?
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I'm down. vote: joth
I also think his posts against me at the end of yesterday have some veiled frustration at being forced to lynch his own partner day1.
Can you show us which posts you mean?
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P: I target xeiron (if lynched, I target Walrus)
D: I target Archetype (if lynched, I target xeiron)
R: I target Walrus (if lynched, I target Archetype)
Oh wait, he told us. He did target Walrus.
Hm. Did we really run up our two biggest wagons on scum? That just can't have happened...
Scum could very well have seen that post, known that xeiron and Walrus were both town, and NKed sudgy. I am not comfortable lynching someone because of this, although it does not help their case.
I just wish he had done a full list of players. wouldn't have been too hard to assign random letters of the alphabet
How would that have helped?
It would have just made the person he targeted more random, and scum (who may or may not have actually killed anyone tonight) would think twice about killing sudgy outright (if that indeed is what happened) for fear that he would have targeted them. It would not have actually helped our situation here any since there was only one death overnight, but I was just thinking that might have been a little better for sudgy to do
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Vote Count 2.1
jotheonah (2): nkirbit, yuma
Not voting (9): ashersky, EFHW, faust, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, pingpongsam, Walrus, xeiron, 2.71828.....
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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vote: walrus
It's not foolproof, but sudgy was a weak doctor, and I can account for a lack of nightkills.
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Assuming chairs is the tree stump he claimed (he hasn't posted yet, right?), I am going to assume he is town. There's no way we can lynch a tree stump, which makes a scum tree stump invincible, and therefore unfair to town.
What I don't know if how tree stumps affect win conditions. Do they count at all? Mafiascum is silent on the matter.
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vote: walrus
It's not foolproof, but sudgy was a weak doctor, and I can account for a lack of nightkills.
Multiple? Like, if there's a SK, you can account for a lack of both the SK and Mafia's NKs?
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vote: walrus
It's not foolproof, but sudgy was a weak doctor, and I can account for a lack of nightkills.
Multiple? Like, if there's a SK, you can account for a lack of both the SK and Mafia's NKs?
Yes. But why do you assume there are multiple kills? Know something the rest of us don't?
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vote: walrus
It's not foolproof, but sudgy was a weak doctor, and I can account for a lack of nightkills.
Multiple? Like, if there's a SK, you can account for a lack of both the SK and Mafia's NKs?
Yes. But why do you assume there are multiple kills? Know something the rest of us don't?
Yeah, that's it. ::)
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vote: walrus
It's not foolproof, but sudgy was a weak doctor, and I can account for a lack of nightkills.
Multiple? Like, if there's a SK, you can account for a lack of both the SK and Mafia's NKs?
Yes. But why do you assume there are multiple kills? Know something the rest of us don't?
apparently you do
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Well, I really didn want to have to claim today, unlike some of our more eagle claimants. But it looks like I'm defaulting to a lynch and this might be my last chance todo so. So here's some of it:
I am River Song. I have several cool powders including the ability to time travel.
her not have to say more than that, but I will if I have to.
Would I like to joina larger wagon? Like the one on me? No thanks. On xeiron? He's a town read for me and two of my scumreads are currently a boarded. I am willing to join Jimmmmm and vote: Archetype though. I'm not sure what I think about a Galz lynch...I guess it's better than nothing?
It is extremely drunk and I am fairly late. I will probably be awake for another half hour or so if you ave questioned. Ill be around tomorrow morning as well.
I just can't believe an Archetype-Walrus scumteam given this post. Walrus claims to try and get rid of the pressure... and immediately throws it on his teammate? I just don't buy it.
Maybe Walrus is a SK or something, but that's speculative. And scum knew that Sudgy was a weak role, and possibly knew that he was targeting a town member. I guess they had lost their bus driver, so that's one way gone to tamper with Sudgy's result, but I'm still not comfortable voting Walrus based only on Ash's "I can account for a lack of nightkills." I certainly don't plan on voting there right now.
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I think there is a lot to learn from analysing the last pages from D1, as I would think scum did try to bump the lynch over on someone else that Archetype.
Townpoints for Walrus, faust and Nkirbit for making a Archetype lynch viable when Walrus and I was the two biggest wagons.
Espesially Nkirbit had several good posts yesterday that give me a strong townread on him.
Jotheonah, yuma , and pingpongsam are the one I find coming out scummier.
Jotheonah for focusing on me and walrus, before jumping on Archetype at the last minute.
Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
Pingpongsam for staying on Walrus while still agreeing that we should lynch somebody.
and for this post during twilight.
That Arch is silent makes me think there is a good possibility we got a lucky lynch in...
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vote: walrus
It's not foolproof, but sudgy was a weak doctor, and I can account for a lack of nightkills.
Multiple? Like, if there's a SK, you can account for a lack of both the SK and Mafia's NKs?
Yes. But why do you assume there are multiple kills? Know something the rest of us don't?
apparently you do
I do. Do you?
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vote: walrus
It's not foolproof, but sudgy was a weak doctor, and I can account for a lack of nightkills.
Multiple? Like, if there's a SK, you can account for a lack of both the SK and Mafia's NKs?
Yes. But why do you assume there are multiple kills? Know something the rest of us don't?
apparently you do
I do. Do you?
I will point out that people can confirm what I know, but it's best if they don't.
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Hmm. I'm not likely to follow ash into voting for Walrus without further explanation.
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
So you are saying that your role is
a) an enabling role that is worth protecting
b) it is probably not best for you to discuss the details of your role
c) certain players know the same things that you know but it is best if all of you keep quiet about it
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Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
So you are saying that your role is
a) an enabling role that is worth protecting
b) it is probably not best for you to discuss the details of your role
c) certain players know the same things that you know but it is best if all of you keep quiet about it
and on top of that your secret information leads you to suspect Walrus
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Hi!
So I think that you guys should vote for Walrus. As a tree stump, I don't have that capability.
So the reaally awesome part of being a tree stump is that scum can't kill me, which means I'm basically a half-IC (since I'm dead I don't count against their wincon, but since I'm dead they can't kill me to shut me up). I guess they can go back to N1 to "fix" that, but then they're wasting a kill on somebody who's already dead! It's glorious ;D
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Hi!
So I think that you guys should vote for Walrus. As a tree stump, I don't have that capability.
So the reaally awesome part of being a tree stump is that scum can't kill me, which means I'm basically a half-IC (since I'm dead I don't count against their wincon, but since I'm dead they can't kill me to shut me up). I guess they can go back to N1 to "fix" that, but then they're wasting a kill on somebody who's already dead! It's glorious ;D
tree stump.....chairs.....there is a joke there
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On a serious note, why should we vote Walrus?
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Vote: chairs
I will let it stand through a vote count.
I read the answer to Fausts question so that voting chairs won't count, but it do not hurt to double check.
If we cannot lynch Chairs, he is probably not scum. That's good news.
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Hi!
So I think that you guys should vote for Walrus. As a tree stump, I don't have that capability.
So the reaally awesome part of being a tree stump is that scum can't kill me, which means I'm basically a half-IC (since I'm dead I don't count against their wincon, but since I'm dead they can't kill me to shut me up). I guess they can go back to N1 to "fix" that, but then they're wasting a kill on somebody who's already dead! It's glorious ;D
tree stump.....chairs.....there is a joke there
As the Something Awful forums would put it, :iiawwii:
PPE:
On a serious note, why should we vote Walrus?
I think Sudgy's plan worked.
Vote: chairs
I will let it stand through a vote count.
I read the answer to Fausts question so that voting chairs won't count, but it do not hurt to double check.
If we cannot lynch Chairs, he is probably not scum. That's good news.
Good suggestion, though it's already mod-confirmed and this isn't Bastard.
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Vote Count 2.2
jotheonah (2): nkirbit, yuma
Walrus (1): ashersky
Not voting (8): EFHW, faust, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, pingpongsam, Walrus, xeiron, 2.71828.....
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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On a serious note, why should we vote Walrus?
I think Sudgy's plan worked.
Do you have any special information that would lead you to believe that, or is it more of a gut feeling?
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
So you are saying that your role is
a) an enabling role that is worth protecting
b) it is probably not best for you to discuss the details of your role
c) certain players know the same things that you know but it is best if all of you keep quiet about it
a) yes
b) possibly
c) not exactly, but good try
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Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
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Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
Or scum could hammer their partner when they don't see a way out of it
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
So you are saying that your role is
a) an enabling role that is worth protecting
b) it is probably not best for you to discuss the details of your role
c) certain players know the same things that you know but it is best if all of you keep quiet about it
and on top of that your secret information leads you to suspect Walrus
No, my information doesn't actually say anything about Walrus at all.
sudgy was a weak doctor. sudgy's statement says he targeted Walrus. sudgy died.
Occam's Razor says Walrus is scum. WIFOM says well, scum could have just killed sudgy. That's a good idea and all, and is supported by the fact that no one else died. What I'm saying is that I can account for no one else dying, so that point in favor of the WIFOM argument is null.
If you'd like, scum could have killed sudgy AND Walrus can be scum at the same time. Since Walrus was one of the three named, they didn't want to risk it so they shot sudgy to ensure there was only the one kill to allow for the WIFOM argument.
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Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
I kind of disagree with you here a bit, Xeiron. I think the path of least resistance for Yuma, were he Archetype's teammate, would have been to push the Walrus wagon. He had been absent through no fault of his own, so he wouldn't draw any suspicion pushing that wagon at that point, I don't think. A town mislynch is also better than a no-lynch, were he Archetype's partner. Pushing a no-lynch turns more attention to himself while pushing for a worse outcome, so I just don't see it as a scummy action.
Of course, if Walrus turns out to be Archetype's partner, then yeah, Yuma's pretty scummy by association. But I don't think that's the case.
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
So you are saying that your role is
a) an enabling role that is worth protecting
b) it is probably not best for you to discuss the details of your role
c) certain players know the same things that you know but it is best if all of you keep quiet about it
and on top of that your secret information leads you to suspect Walrus
No, my information doesn't actually say anything about Walrus at all.
sudgy was a weak doctor. sudgy's statement says he targeted Walrus. sudgy died.
Occam's Razor says Walrus is scum. WIFOM says well, scum could have just killed sudgy. That's a good idea and all, and is supported by the fact that no one else died. What I'm saying is that I can account for no one else dying, so that point in favor of the WIFOM argument is null.
If you'd like, scum could have killed sudgy AND Walrus can be scum at the same time. Since Walrus was one of the three named, they didn't want to risk it so they shot sudgy to ensure there was only the one kill to allow for the WIFOM argument.
Can you account for Sudgy not dying through a normal NK?
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Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
Ok. But how does that make me scum? Wouldn't have the better option at this juncture be to vote for Walrus if I was arch's mate?
This was the vote count when I first posted the no-lynch idea:
Archetype (4): Jimmmmm, Walrus, Faust, Nkirbit
xeiron (3): sudgy, 2.7..., jotheonah
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (4): ashersky, pingpongsam, Xeiron, Archetype
It would have been supremely easy and no one would have blamed me for voting for walrus at this point coming in as a sub. I even said that I had been suspicious of walrus in the speccy thread (but that this had waned of late). If I were scum partners with Arch all I would have had to say was "I have been suspicious of walrus all game watching, vote walrus" and then press for it.
So again I ask, how is the narrative of me suggesting a no-lynch a scummy one?
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Can you account for Sudgy not dying through a normal NK?
No, I cannot definitely rule that out. Can you confirm he was?
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Can you account for Sudgy not dying through a normal NK?
No, I cannot definitely rule that out. Can you confirm he was?
Well, if you can't definitely rule it out, I just don't think we should go there.
Do you think it's feasible for Archetype and Walrus to be partners? I just don't... I don't think we had our two largest day1 wagons on scum, and I don't think Walrus would have claimed and thrown suspicion on Arch the way he did if they were partners.
Given that I don't think Walrus is mafia, I just don't think it makes sense to try and lynch him today. Yeah, he could be a third party, but I'd rather try and lynch someone who could be either mafia or a potential third party than lynch Walrus. Heck, I don't even know if a third party exists, so if I have evidence that someone isn't mafia, I'm content to not lynch them at this point in the game.
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Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
Ok. But how does that make me scum? Wouldn't have the better option at this juncture be to vote for Walrus if I was arch's mate?
This was the vote count when I first posted the no-lynch idea:
Archetype (4): Jimmmmm, Walrus, Faust, Nkirbit
xeiron (3): sudgy, 2.7..., jotheonah
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (4): ashersky, pingpongsam, Xeiron, Archetype
It would have been supremely easy and no one would have blamed me for voting for walrus at this point coming in as a sub. I even said that I had been suspicious of walrus in the speccy thread (but that this had waned of late). If I were scum partners with Arch all I would have had to say was "I have been suspicious of walrus all game watching, vote walrus" and then press for it.
So again I ask, how is the narrative of me suggesting a no-lynch a scummy one?
Roughly speaking there where four alternatives yesterday.
1. Vote Archetype
2. Vote Walrus
3. Vote Xeiron
4. Support no-lynch.
I can certainly see town going for any of them. Scum would probably choose something else that 1. At least before a Archetype lynch was unavoidable.
Now, we are in a situation where over half of the non-IC-players voted Archetype.
That leaves the rest as scummier by elimination.
It is not so much the no-lynch thing thats make you scummy, but rather not joining the Archetype wagon.
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It is not so much the no-lynch thing thats make you scummy, but rather not joining the Archetype wagon.
Then you should have said that from the beginning. I have no problem being seen as somewhat scummier than others for not voting archetype compared to those who did, especially those who voted early and at key moments, but to single me out for saying "no-lynch" and focusing on that is another story...
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Heck, I don't even know if a third party exists, so if I have evidence that someone isn't mafia, I'm content to not lynch them at this point in the game.
Can you please share the evidence you have that walrus isn't mafia?
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I have a lot of catching up to do. Please stop voting for me for a second. I have things to share.
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Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
Ok. But how does that make me scum? Wouldn't have the better option at this juncture be to vote for Walrus if I was arch's mate?
This was the vote count when I first posted the no-lynch idea:
Archetype (4): Jimmmmm, Walrus, Faust, Nkirbit
xeiron (3): sudgy, 2.7..., jotheonah
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (4): ashersky, pingpongsam, Xeiron, Archetype
It would have been supremely easy and no one would have blamed me for voting for walrus at this point coming in as a sub. I even said that I had been suspicious of walrus in the speccy thread (but that this had waned of late). If I were scum partners with Arch all I would have had to say was "I have been suspicious of walrus all game watching, vote walrus" and then press for it.
So again I ask, how is the narrative of me suggesting a no-lynch a scummy one?
Because Walrus and Archetype were BOTH your partners! You had no other choice. THat's rich!
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Ok, I have no useful information. I thought I did, but then I re-read and it turns out I didn't. I think Walrus is our best guess at present.
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Because Walrus and Archetype were BOTH your partners! You had no other choice. THat's rich!
Ok. If that is your narrative why didn't I vote for xeiron and make him a fully viable lynch candidate making all of them at 4 votes?
your reasoning doesn't make sense.
i am staying with my joth vote
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You saw how the town was acting and figured no lynch was a better bet. Remember, to accomplish a no lynch all you ha to do was stall us out.
You didn't have much time to look through the day's posts and build a case on xeiron. So you went with a case that saved your partner and didn't require time for research.
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You saw how the town was acting and figured no lynch was a better bet. Remember, to accomplish a no lynch all you ha to do was stall us out.
You didn't have much time to look through the day's posts and build a case on xeiron. So you went with a case that saved your partner and didn't require time for research.
Nope... still doesn't work. You had just voted for xeiron. I could have easily sheeped off that and played the "I am catching up, joth is making sense" card and it would have totally flyed. Would have been a lot better than trying to no-lynch if I were scum.... Again, your narrative makes no sense.
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I'm not going to argue with scum. It's a pointless endeavor.
Vote: Walrus
Also perfectly comfortable voting yuma.
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And you are basing all of this off unconfirmed idea that walrus is scum. If you are so sure he is mafia than vote for him and find out....
and won't you feel the fool if he flips town (although you will probably come up with some other lame narrative explaining how I am mafia)
and well... if he flips mafia I am sure you will gloat right into a mislynch of me... which at that point I won't really mind as we will have had 2 dead mafia at that point and be in pretty good shape.
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I'm not going to argue with scum. It's a pointless endeavor.
Vote: Walrus
Also perfectly comfortable voting yuma.
Why are you so sure I am scum? Do you have a result that you want to share?
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I'm not going to argue with scum. I know my argument has no merit. It's a pointless endeavor. So I am not going to try to argue my point because it is crap.
Vote: Walrus
Also perfectly comfortable voting yuma.
Fixed that for you.
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I'm not going to argue with scum. It's a pointless endeavor.
Vote: Walrus
Also perfectly comfortable voting yuma.
Why are you so sure I am scum? Do you have a result that you want to share?
Man, trying to out ANOTHER power role. Keep digging, buddy.
Anyway, town naturally wants to No Lynch day 1. Nobody wants to kill anybody. You thought you could play on that inclination, come in, and save your partner. It was a gambit. It didn't work.
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I'm not going to argue with scum. It's a pointless endeavor.
Vote: Walrus
Also perfectly comfortable voting yuma.
Why are you so sure I am scum? Do you have a result that you want to share?
Man, trying to out ANOTHER power role. Keep digging, buddy.
You didn't answer my question. Do you have a result on me you want to share? Yes or No?
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The only "result" we have (claimed) is sudgy's death from (presumably) targeting Walrus.
I think there are good odds it is exactly how it looks -- weak doctor targeted scum.
I don't get the "well, he might be the SK so let's leave him alive" thing that nkirbit is selling.
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I'm not going to argue with scum. It's a pointless endeavor.
Vote: Walrus
Also perfectly comfortable voting yuma.
Why are you so sure I am scum? Do you have a result that you want to share?
Man, trying to out ANOTHER power role. Keep digging, buddy.
You didn't answer my question. Do you have a result on me you want to share? Yes or No?
I get it. It's important for you to know how screwed you are so you can structure your defense.
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scum didn't know sudgy's flavor name. If ashersky's theory is correct, they could have killed sudgy to protect xeiron.
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I'm not going to argue with scum. It's a pointless endeavor.
Vote: Walrus
Also perfectly comfortable voting yuma.
Why are you so sure I am scum? Do you have a result that you want to share?
Man, trying to out ANOTHER power role. Keep digging, buddy.
You didn't answer my question. Do you have a result on me you want to share? Yes or No?
I get it. It's important for you to know how screwed you are so you can structure your defense.
What is your motive? If you are town, what are you trying to do here? If you are scum, what are you trying to do here?
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He said he had a result, and then he said he didn't after all.
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scum didn't know sudgy's flavor name. If ashersky's theory is correct, they could have killed sudgy to protect xeiron.
So, ashersky, why are you so sure it is Walrus they were trying to protect?
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He said he had a result, and then he said he didn't after all.
Ok... then why is he so certain that I am scum to the point that he has egged me on, mildly belittled me and ragged on me and my general play style. but when I ask him if he has a result that makes him certain he gives me... more of the same?
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scum didn't know sudgy's flavor name. If ashersky's theory is correct, they could have killed sudgy to protect xeiron.
So, ashersky, why are you so sure it is Walrus they were trying to protect?
I'm not sure they were trying to protect anyone.
I do not think scum killed sudgy. I think sudgy targeted Walrus and died from his weak role.
However, I put out there the point that, even if sudgy was the NK, it doesn't clear walrus, because they could have shot him to protect Walrus (or xieron, as you rightly also mention).
Here are the possibilities, right?
Let's assume that "sudgy targeted Walrus" is always true.
1. sudgy died because Walrus was scum and that auto-killed him as a weak role.
2. sudgy died because scum shot him (to frame whomever he targeted and/or protect whomever he targeted).
3. sudgy died because Walrus was scum AND scum shot him.
Those are the three possibilities. In 2/3, walrus is scum, and in the 1/3 where he isn't scum, he could still be scum. Occam's Razor, the most likely answer is probably the answer.
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1. sudgy died because Walrus was scum and that auto-killed him as a weak role.
2. sudgy died because scum shot him (to frame whomever he targeted and/or protect whomever he targeted).
3. sudgy died because Walrus was scum AND scum shot him.
Those are the three possibilities. In 2/3, walrus is scum, and in the 1/3 where he isn't scum, he could still be scum. Occam's Razor, the most likely answer is probably the answer.
But not all of these have the same % of happening, so using those sort of odds to try and figure out what happened isn't an accurate way of assessing the situation, in fact I would call in manipulation.
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I just feel sure that yuma is scum. I have no extra information. But he is acting scummy. A scum narrative explains his behavior. I also expect scum!Galzria to lurk and replace moreso than I would expect town!Galzria too. Or, more accurately, if Galzria was in a game and he was too busy to play out day 1, and he was town, and he thought he was going to survive on his rep, he might be ok just lurking it, contributing whatever happened to pop into his head, and committing to play harder the next day.
Now what if Galzria is scum and he doesn't have time to play day 1? Galz carefully plans his scum play, I think maybe he decided if he couldn't play scum up to his usual standard he would replace out, especially if his partners were taking heat and he felt like he needed to save them. So he replaces. Yuma suddenly finds himself in a scum team in a terrible position, and not much time left on the clock, so he springs into action with a half-baked plan to save his partners day 1 and to work out day 2 later. It makes sense to me.
And what does he do day 2, when we have a slam-dunk lynch on Walrus based on the only kind of investigative result we have? immediately tries to divert us from it. yuma, why shouldn't we lynch Walrus?
So maybe Walrus got roleblocked and NK'd and Walrus isn't scum. Or maybe scum got roleblocked and Walrus is scum. Or maybe sudgy changed his mind and didn't target Walrus and Walrus did target scum. But Occam's razor to me, especially given Walrus's scummy claim yesterday, is that Walrus is scum.
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So my plan is
Step 1: lynch Walrus.
Step 2: (assuming Walrus was scum) lynch yuma.
Step 3: profit.
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And what does he do day 2, when we have a slam-dunk lynch on Walrus based on the only kind of investigative result we have? immediately tries to divert us from it. yuma, why shouldn't we lynch Walrus?
I haven't said we shouldn't lynch him. I just don't see it as the slam dunk that everyone is making it out to be.... This was brought up when sudgy claimed... and was why people were mad when sudgy claimed because it isn't a slam dunk. It is a three point attempt at best... maybe a contested jumper from outside the key... but not a slam dunk, so why rush into something that isn't guaranteed?
People saying this is slam-dunk are over stating it and saying Occam's Razor over and over again isn't going to make it any more likely to be accurate.
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So my plan is
Step 1: lynch Walrus.
Step 2: (assuming Walrus was scum) lynch yuma.
Step 3: profit.
and what happens if walrus flips town...
I imagine your plan would be to
Step 2: still lynch yuma for reasons that havne't been explained yet.
Step 3: get closer to a mafia win?
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I just think any plan that outlines what to do the next day is far, far more likely to come from scum than town especially when they are in this situation of being absolutely desperate... and needing to force something good for them to happen.
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And what does he do day 2, when we have a slam-dunk lynch on Walrus based on the only kind of investigative result we have? immediately tries to divert us from it. yuma, why shouldn't we lynch Walrus?
I haven't said we shouldn't lynch him. I just don't see it as the slam dunk that everyone is making it out to be.... This was brought up when sudgy claimed... and was why people were mad when sudgy claimed because it isn't a slam dunk. It is a three point attempt at best... maybe a contested jumper from outside the key... but not a slam dunk, so why rush into something that isn't guaranteed?
People saying this is slam-dunk are over stating it and saying Occam's Razor over and over again isn't going to make it any more likely to be accurate.
For the record, I haven't called it a slam dunk, and have pointed out on my own volition how it's possible walrus isn't actually scum.
It's just the most likely scenario is walrus is scum targeted by a weak doc.
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So my plan is
Step 1: lynch Walrus.
Step 2: (assuming Walrus was scum) lynch yuma.
Step 3: profit.
and what happens if walrus flips town...
I imagine your plan would be to
Step 2: still lynch yuma for reasons that havne't been explained yet.
Step 3: get closer to a mafia win?
Day 2 you can lynch me. You shouldn't though because I'm town. I'll definitely re-consider the yuma lynch though. He makes a lot less sense as scum if Walrus flips town.
yuma, if you're just asking me to be nicer and less personal that's cool I can do that. I get kind of excited sometimes when I think I've found scum but I don't mean to mean. I'm not going to stop thinking you're scum, but I'm sorry if you feel attacked above and beyond that. I'm happy you subbed in! I like you generally! I just think you're almost certainly scum.
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If Walrus is a scum role blocker then why not just block sudgy's role?
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nvm, he might not have been able to act in the present.
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didn't sudgy say that if we had a town time traveling role blocker, that person could save him if he was weak?
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If Walrus is a scum role blocker then why not just block sudgy's role?
That's a nice hypothetical and all, but you can do that with any role in the universe and any player in the game. What purpose does it serve?
It's like "hey, X died last night. If Y was a JK, why not jail X?" But that doesn't really say a thing about Y, right? I mean, it's just a hypothetical.
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isn't the most likely explanation that scum targeted sudgy?
And if scum targeted sudgy, then the fact that he was targeting Walrus tells us nothing.
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isn't the most likely explanation that scum targeted sudgy?
And if scum targeted sudgy, then the fact that he was targeting Walrus tells us nothing.
Why is that most likely?
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And where's Faust with his plan for ensuring sudgy's plan worked? He was all about it D1.
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isn't the most likely explanation that scum targeted sudgy?
And if scum targeted sudgy, then the fact that he was targeting Walrus tells us nothing.
Why is that most likely?
because it doesn't rely on any special powers
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came back, caught up, and now vote: joth
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You saw how the town was acting and figured no lynch was a better bet. Remember, to accomplish a no lynch all you ha to do was stall us out.
You didn't have much time to look through the day's posts and build a case on xeiron. So you went with a case that saved your partner and didn't require time for research.
Let me defend Yuma a bit.
1) If I want town to stall out, I don't vote no lynch, I vote for xeiron who makes it even 4-4-4 instead of pursuing a no lynch. confusion of candidates is better than pushing a whole new idea
2) Yuma had been following the game. As he mentioned, he had been posting in the spectator qt and such (even voted jimmmmm early if I remember what he said correctly) so he did not necessarily need extra time to do research
that is just a response to the specific quote from above.
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I just feel sure that yuma is scum. I have no extra information. But he is acting scummy. A scum narrative explains his behavior. I also expect scum!Galzria to lurk and replace moreso than I would expect town!Galzria too. Or, more accurately, if Galzria was in a game and he was too busy to play out day 1, and he was town, and he thought he was going to survive on his rep, he might be ok just lurking it, contributing whatever happened to pop into his head, and committing to play harder the next day.
Now what if Galzria is scum and he doesn't have time to play day 1? Galz carefully plans his scum play, I think maybe he decided if he couldn't play scum up to his usual standard he would replace out, especially if his partners were taking heat and he felt like he needed to save them. So he replaces. Yuma suddenly finds himself in a scum team in a terrible position, and not much time left on the clock, so he springs into action with a half-baked plan to save his partners day 1 and to work out day 2 later. It makes sense to me.
And what does he do day 2, when we have a slam-dunk lynch on Walrus based on the only kind of investigative result we have? immediately tries to divert us from it. yuma, why shouldn't we lynch Walrus?
So maybe Walrus got roleblocked and NK'd and Walrus isn't scum. Or maybe scum got roleblocked and Walrus is scum. Or maybe sudgy changed his mind and didn't target Walrus and Walrus did target scum. But Occam's razor to me, especially given Walrus's scummy claim yesterday, is that Walrus is scum.
I totally disagree with this entire post. Every sentence. I can go through sentence by sentence if people want me to, but it is so off the wall that I don't think I need to.
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Ok, you disagree with me? but I'm really a better lynch than Walrus?
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1) If I want town to stall out, I don't vote no lynch, I vote for xeiron who makes it even 4-4-4 instead of pursuing a no lynch. confusion of candidates is better than pushing a whole new idea
No. If you're trying to stall out, you want an idea that is so new, but also viable, that it makes everyone go "huh" and maybe gets people who have already voted to remove their votes. No lynch does that.
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Ok, you disagree with me? but I'm really a better lynch than Walrus?
yes. I do not trust the sudgy result. I believe the Walrus claim. Had we had multiple NKs (sudgy being one of them) then I would have given much more credence to the sudgy result. However, I do not have any special information like Ashersky has or you implied that you did before you retracted what you said after the reread. So until I hear that special information I am not ready to lynch Walrus. At all.
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Vote Count 2.3
jotheonah (3): nkirbit, yuma, 2.71828.....
Walrus (2): ashersky, jotheonah
Not voting (6): EFHW, faust, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, Walrus, xeiron
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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Well, I just caught up and well, whew...
So, surely people did things last night. And surely to god, since sudgy said he was going to do something somebody watched him, right? I mean his plan was just as easily a scum ploy if he were alive today.
As to watching sudgy, if not, why not and if so, why not tell?
I'm asking in general not to get a possible watcher to out themselves. I just can't think of a solid reason why it played out this way.
That said, I did receive some information last night that suggests an attempt to kill someone failed. That information supports the notion that sudgy died from his weak modifier as opposed to being the one killed unless there are multiple killing abilities occurring at night.
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I also expect scum!Galzria to lurk and replace moreso than I would expect town!Galzria too. Or, more accurately, if Galzria was in a game and he was too busy to play out day 1, and he was town, and he thought he was going to survive on his rep, he might be ok just lurking it, contributing whatever happened to pop into his head, and committing to play harder the next day.
Now what if Galzria is scum and he doesn't have time to play day 1? Galz carefully plans his scum play, I think maybe he decided if he couldn't play scum up to his usual standard he would replace out, especially if his partners were taking heat and he felt like he needed to save them. So he replaces.
Timeout
I glossed over this part in reading through the first time, but I think it is extremely unfair to Galz and a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened...
I don't think Galz would stoop to /outing because he thought his team was going to take a hit day1 and that he was going to lose... like this is an extremely low blow joth to a guy who has been a solid part of this community and through all of it has played with honesty and integrity--he is a mod here for pete's sake!--and I don't like it and won't stand for it.
As for what actually happened, it is clear to me that Galz' didn't actually /out, but rather that he was replaced because he wasn't around. Look at how the replacement went down, he was prodded, didn't post was completely absent from the forums for days from December 23 to December 27 if you look at his post history...
Add to this that I know that this isn't what happened as I know Galz's alignment, but even if Galz were scum I can't imagine him doing this and cannot believe that you would consider this as a possibility.
I felt you were getting a little too personal before in regard to me, but this is an emotional game and I can handle it and you shouldn't really change how you are approaching the game toward me. I just wanted you to answer my questions. But this sort of thinking goes too far regardless of my alignment or yours! We have to respect that we are assuming here that people are being honest. If we stop doing that this whole community falls apart, we have to have some level of trust, otherwise we can't play the game.
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Well, if you want to strike that case from the record, as it were, that's fine.
I didn't mean to disparage Galzria, in fact in my eyes it reflects well on him -- either way, lurking hurts his team, but as scum lurking hurts his team a lot more so he did what he thought was best for them. If I were his team mate, I would respect that decision.
People have to out some times it happens, and I didn't mean to make that my case in the game. You asked for a narrative, so I spun the most logical one I could come up with based on what I believe to be true.
That's as much as I want to talk about it here because there are really no time outs but we can always pick it up after the game's over.
But more important is what scum!yuma would do if he replaced into a game and found his team in deep trouble.
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And I hope I didn't come on too strong there joth. I am not upset or mad or anything like that, but rather just really uncomfortable with having anyone use that sort of logic in this sort of game, especially someone who can't currently defend themselves... and while I know that Galz doesn't necessarily need me to defend him if the roles were reversed I would be quite shocked and dismayed to see that people thought me capable of something like that.
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But more important is what scum!yuma would do if he replaced into a game and found his team in deep trouble.
sure that is the issue at hand and what I am more comfortable discussing
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If you think I said Galz replaced out because he was losing, then I didn't communicate well. I think Galz replaced out for IRL reasons, but I think he might have just lurked it out if he were town. Maybe that's silly though. My case isn't primarily based on Galz's actions, which are a null tell as far as I'm concerned. It is based on yuma's consistently scummy behavior.
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On a serious note, why should we vote Walrus?
I think Sudgy's plan worked.
Do you have any special information that would lead you to believe that, or is it more of a gut feeling?
Gut feeling.
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I am stuck in the Atlanta airport for the next 10 to infinity hours. I am on my phone, disheveled, tired, and generally pissed. So if you are a human being or an airplane there's a good chance I hate you right now.
Well, obviously it's hard to see from an outsider's perspective, but it's pretty clear to me that scum shot sudgy last night just so they could pin it on whomever got targeted. That's such a cute scum thing to do. That's my Occam's Razor of what happened last night, based on my own knowledge of course. Also, as others have said, look at how things went down--why would I have thrown attention on Arch if I were flailing scum? Yes I know, busing etc., but are we *really* still talking about Occam's Razor at that point? The simplest scenario is he was scum, and I am not.
It is unfortunate that sudgy targeted me, because I am a time traveling roleblocker (for odd nights anyway) that could have theoretically saved him. Oh well. I guess I will try to go back at some point and block the kill itself.
I think that everyone should take a good, hard look at everyone who was not on Arch's lynch at the end of D1. I feel confident there is at least one scumball there. For now I will vote: ashersky -- I don't like the way he's come out against me here and he seems like exactly the type who could and would engineer my version of the Occam's Razor scenario. PPS also deserves some scrutiny I think.
jotheonah is interesting...I did find him scummish D1, and still do I think. I will do rereads on him, yuma, and others when I get access to a proper computer and the comforts of home.
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Heck, I don't even know if a third party exists, so if I have evidence that someone isn't mafia, I'm content to not lynch them at this point in the game.
Can you please share the evidence you have that walrus isn't mafia?
Gladly. We know that Archetype was mafia from his flip. So, I'm going to go back and look at the interactions between Archetype and Walrus, and see what I can learn!
Vote Count 1.10
Archetype (1): Jimmmmm
xeiron (3): Archetype, sudgy, 2.7...
Galzria (1): chairs
Walrus (4): faust, jotheonah, nkirbit, ashersky
jotheonah (1): Walrus
ashersky (1): xeiron
Not voting (3): EFHW, Galzria, pingpongsam
The above is the vote count at the point of Walrus' claim.
Well, I really didn want to have to claim today, unlike some of our more eagle claimants. But it looks like I'm defaulting to a lynch and this might be my last chance todo so. So here's some of it:
I am River Song. I have several cool powders including the ability to time travel.
her not have to say more than that, but I will if I have to.
Would I like to joina larger wagon? Like the one on me? No thanks. On xeiron? He's a town read for me and two of my scumreads are currently a boarded. I am willing to join Jimmmmm and vote: Archetype though. I'm not sure what I think about a Galz lynch...I guess it's better than nothing?
It is extremely drunk and I am fairly late. I will probably be awake for another half hour or so if you ave questioned. Ill be around tomorrow morning as well.
And here we have Walrus' claim. Whether you believe it or not, you'll notice that his very first action after claiming is to vote for Archetype. Archetype has been under a little suspicion throughout the day, but wasn't one of the leading wagons. Walrus voting for Archetype directly caused him to be a viable lynch candidate. I'm confident that without Walrus' vote, Archetype does not get lynched.. it was his vote that even made me go back and re-read Arch, and then push heavily for his lynch. I probably wouldn't have done that without Walrus' vote.
Now, I know that bussing is a thing, but does scum really bus there in that way? I just don't buy it. Even if Walrus manages to get the lynch off of him, he's probably going to remain one of our prime suspects going forward (as he is today). Yeah, maybe someone else will get lynched.. but why doesn't Walrus vote elsewhere. Or at the least no vote? If it's a deflection technique, does he really deflect on his teammate at that point? No way. It's just too risky. It could easily get Archetype lynched day1, and him lynched day2... it's just suicide.
Here! Vote: Walrus at this stage I don't believe Walrus' claim. I'm pretty sure he's just a Time Traveling Roleblocker and is faking the Vig part.
That is L-1
Here we have Archetype pushing Walrus to L-1. Sure, I guess this could come from a scum teammate, but why? Are Walrus and Archetype busing each other? It's possible, but it's either a series of incredibly poor decision making by scum teammates, or just comes from the fact that they're not scum teammates. I just believe it's the second, strongly.
Furthermore, I just don't believe that our largest wagons day1 were both on scum. Just no way. Scum doesn't let that happen.
Now, I acknowledge that it's possible for Walrus to be a SK or something else like that, but I still don't want to lynch him. I'd rather lynch a player with a chance of flipping either mafia or a potential third party, because it's just so much more likely to happen.
I just think that if a player doesn't make sense as mafia, we shouldn't be lynching them, and everything that happened between Walrus and Archetype indicates to me that they weren't teammates. So I absolutely will not be considering Walrus as a potential lynch today without stronger evidence, because his interactions with Archetype are pretty good evidence to me that he isn't a member of the mafia.
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In clue, the hider died if they hid behind a vigilante, right? I looked up hider on mafia scum, and there's no such description of hiding behind a vig leading to a death, but it was in clue.
Is it possible that we have the same condition here. Walrus claimed half vigilante... maybe Sudgy died because he hid behind a Vigilante? Is that possible?
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In clue, the hider died if they hid behind a vigilante, right? I looked up hider on mafia scum, and there's no such description of hiding behind a vig leading to a death, but it was in clue.
Is it possible that we have the same condition here. Walrus claimed half vigilante... maybe Sudgy died because he hid behind a Vigilante? Is that possible?
sudgy didn't flip hider. he flipped doctor.
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The only "result" we have (claimed) is sudgy's death from (presumably) targeting Walrus.
I think there are good odds it is exactly how it looks -- weak doctor targeted scum.
I don't get the "well, he might be the SK so let's leave him alive" thing that nkirbit is selling.
This is certainly a gross exaggeration. I don't think he's the SK. I think he's town. I acknowledge that it's possible he's an SK, but I really do believe that he isn't mafia.
Also, I really don't know what you're claiming. You can claim to know why we didn't have NKs elsewhere than Sudgy, but not be sure that Sudgy wasn't NKed. Did you make him a lightning rod or something?
Don't claim unless you want to, but I sure am not comfortable lynching Walrus right now. I think it's more likely that you are scum than he is.
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In clue, the hider died if they hid behind a vigilante, right? I looked up hider on mafia scum, and there's no such description of hiding behind a vig leading to a death, but it was in clue.
Is it possible that we have the same condition here. Walrus claimed half vigilante... maybe Sudgy died because he hid behind a Vigilante? Is that possible?
sudgy didn't flip hider. he flipped doctor.
Maybe Sudgy died because he targeted a vigilante.
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nvm, he might not have been able to act in the present.
It's also possible that Sudgy was a time-traveler himself, so even if town knew to roleblock Sudgy, it's not the case that they knew which night to roleblock him. Sudgy's flip didn't indicate that he was a time traveler, but it's possible that a flip wouldn't.
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In clue, the hider died if they hid behind a vigilante, right? I looked up hider on mafia scum, and there's no such description of hiding behind a vig leading to a death, but it was in clue.
Is it possible that we have the same condition here. Walrus claimed half vigilante... maybe Sudgy died because he hid behind a Vigilante? Is that possible?
Walrus claimed even night vig. so that theory wouldnt work N1
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At this point, I have town reads on the following players:
Walrus, Xeiron, Faust, Yuma, 2.7, EFHW
Null reads on the following players:
Jimm, Ashersky, PPS
Scum reads on:
Jotheonah
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Walrus, Xeiron, Faust, Yuma, 2.7, EFHW
That's a long list of Town reads.
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Walrus, Xeiron, Faust, Yuma, 2.7, EFHW
That's a long list of Town reads.
Yeah, I agree. Probably at least one of them is wrong, maybe more. But it's how I feel right now. I would not, at this point, consider supporting a lynch of any of those players.
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Any interest in commenting on Walrus or Joth or something else, Jimm? I get that the length of my town reads list is interesting, but surely you have an opinion on what's happening, right?
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Nkirbit's analysis of walrus's alignment exactly echoes my own thoughts on the matter. Ashersky and others supporting a walrus lynch, do you want to lynch walrus even if he isn't mafia?
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And here we have Walrus' claim. Whether you believe it or not, you'll notice that his very first action after claiming is to vote for Archetype. Archetype has been under a little suspicion throughout the day, but wasn't one of the leading wagons. Walrus voting for Archetype directly caused him to be a viable lynch candidate. I'm confident that without Walrus' vote, Archetype does not get lynched.. it was his vote that even made me go back and re-read Arch, and then push heavily for his lynch. I probably wouldn't have done that without Walrus' vote.
Now, I know that bussing is a thing, but does scum really bus there in that way? I just don't buy it. Even if Walrus manages to get the lynch off of him, he's probably going to remain one of our prime suspects going forward (as he is today). Yeah, maybe someone else will get lynched.. but why doesn't Walrus vote elsewhere. Or at the least no vote? If it's a deflection technique, does he really deflect on his teammate at that point? No way. It's just too risky. It could easily get Archetype lynched day1, and him lynched day2... it's just suicide.
Here! Vote: Walrus at this stage I don't believe Walrus' claim. I'm pretty sure he's just a Time Traveling Roleblocker and is faking the Vig part.
That is L-1
Here we have Archetype pushing Walrus to L-1. Sure, I guess this could come from a scum teammate, but why? Are Walrus and Archetype busing each other? It's possible, but it's either a series of incredibly poor decision making by scum teammates, or just comes from the fact that they're not scum teammates. I just believe it's the second, strongly.
Furthermore, I just don't believe that our largest wagons day1 were both on scum. Just no way. Scum doesn't let that happen.
Now, I acknowledge that it's possible for Walrus to be a SK or something else like that, but I still don't want to lynch him. I'd rather lynch a player with a chance of flipping either mafia or a potential third party, because it's just so much more likely to happen.
I just think that if a player doesn't make sense as mafia, we shouldn't be lynching them, and everything that happened between Walrus and Archetype indicates to me that they weren't teammates. So I absolutely will not be considering Walrus as a potential lynch today without stronger evidence, because his interactions with Archetype are pretty good evidence to me that he isn't a member of the mafia.
So scum-bussing is a thing (and by the way, you have to believe that whether you vote for me or Walrus). You're saying this doesn't look like a bus.
I disagree. I think Walrus and Archetype are 100 percent capable of this kind of bussing, so that if one of them ended up lynched, the other would cruise out safe on the bus cred -- which is exactly what's happening.
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I think I'm tunneling hard though. I'll reread the end of day 1 tonight or tomorrow and try hard to keep an open mind.
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And here we have Walrus' claim. Whether you believe it or not, you'll notice that his very first action after claiming is to vote for Archetype. Archetype has been under a little suspicion throughout the day, but wasn't one of the leading wagons. Walrus voting for Archetype directly caused him to be a viable lynch candidate. I'm confident that without Walrus' vote, Archetype does not get lynched.. it was his vote that even made me go back and re-read Arch, and then push heavily for his lynch. I probably wouldn't have done that without Walrus' vote.
Now, I know that bussing is a thing, but does scum really bus there in that way? I just don't buy it. Even if Walrus manages to get the lynch off of him, he's probably going to remain one of our prime suspects going forward (as he is today). Yeah, maybe someone else will get lynched.. but why doesn't Walrus vote elsewhere. Or at the least no vote? If it's a deflection technique, does he really deflect on his teammate at that point? No way. It's just too risky. It could easily get Archetype lynched day1, and him lynched day2... it's just suicide.
Here! Vote: Walrus at this stage I don't believe Walrus' claim. I'm pretty sure he's just a Time Traveling Roleblocker and is faking the Vig part.
That is L-1
Here we have Archetype pushing Walrus to L-1. Sure, I guess this could come from a scum teammate, but why? Are Walrus and Archetype busing each other? It's possible, but it's either a series of incredibly poor decision making by scum teammates, or just comes from the fact that they're not scum teammates. I just believe it's the second, strongly.
Furthermore, I just don't believe that our largest wagons day1 were both on scum. Just no way. Scum doesn't let that happen.
Now, I acknowledge that it's possible for Walrus to be a SK or something else like that, but I still don't want to lynch him. I'd rather lynch a player with a chance of flipping either mafia or a potential third party, because it's just so much more likely to happen.
I just think that if a player doesn't make sense as mafia, we shouldn't be lynching them, and everything that happened between Walrus and Archetype indicates to me that they weren't teammates. So I absolutely will not be considering Walrus as a potential lynch today without stronger evidence, because his interactions with Archetype are pretty good evidence to me that he isn't a member of the mafia.
So scum-bussing is a thing (and by the way, you have to believe that whether you vote for me or Walrus). You're saying this doesn't look like a bus.
I disagree. I think Walrus and Archetype are 100 percent capable of this kind of bussing, so that if one of them ended up lynched, the other would cruise out safe on the bus cred -- which is exactly what's happening.
I don't think I've ever seen a scum, under pressure day 1, with plenty of viable options to choose from, try and deflect on their teammate. It's just too risky. The credit isn't worth getting your partner lynched day1, especially in a game where you're facing a lot of town PRs. Especially throwing the lynch onto your busdriver, when there's a player who announced his possible night targets as including Archetype and Walrus. If Archetype and Walrus are mafia, they probably want to leave Archetype alive so that he can busdrive Sudgy, right?
By throwing suspicion onto Archetype, Walrus would have been risking the following:
1) Archetype gets lynched.
2) Some percentage of the time, Sudgy targets Walrus with his weak role, and dies. Even if Walrus has gained some town credit, there's a non-zero chance he gets lynched. People certainly argue for it, at least.
Why risk it? I just don't see scum!Walrus acting that way. Keep in mind, this is a game with a bunch of town PRs.. there's a chance every night that a mafia member will get caught, so losing a teammate for credit doesn't seem worth it to me. Especially when they're a bus driver, which is a pretty powerful role (especially when there's a weak player announcing his targets each night).
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I haven't claimed all I know because EFHW said no full claim. At least one other player mentioned also having reason to believe sudgy was not NKed.
If asked to full claim, I can.
Also, no one finds it more likely scum wants to kill super powered walrus over weak doc sudgy? Look at walrus's claim. And yet he survives AND was targeted by a weak doc who died. Hmmm.
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Walrus' role doesn't sound any more powerful than yours. You're an enabler and you claim to have knowledge that all other night kills were stopped. Man. Why don't I ever get the cool PRs?
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Killing Walrus isn't a priority when you can just try and get him mislynched the next day, which is what a Sudgy kill sets up if Walrus is town.
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Although I guess scum wouldn't know that Sudgy's flip would incriminate Walrus and not Xeiron... but if they're both town, maybe mafia doesn't mind either way.
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So, catching up.
Anyway, Vote: Joth
[...]
He only moved over to Archetype after I pointed this out, because as it turned out, his choice was between Archetype and no-lynch. And knowing that Archetype is scum, the above statement is pretty scummy. "Well, I would lynch this scum player, but I really don't want to..". I don't think Joth was planning to vote Archetype at all, but got forced to because of the way the day unfolded.
Joth was on Walrus, trying to convince us that one of Walrus and Xeiron was scum. After EFHW broke up the Walrus wagon, he tried to move over to Xeiron, justifying his vote with "there appears to be a lot of support", despite the archetype wagon having two more voters at that point. The Xeiron wagon didn't go through, he couldn't no-lynch given his previous statements, and was forced to move over to archetype at the last minute.
Well, I do agree that joth behaved somewhat scummy, but do you really think scum would post this:
I really really wish my choice was not between Archetype and no lynch.
I don't, and so I think joth is more likely town.
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Archetype v. Walrus (7) unv. Xeiron (3)
Archetype unv. Walrus (6)
Archetype v. Walrus (7)
I totally believe Walrus right now. Some things I thought about overnight:
1) There is absolutely no way someone fake-claims River Song. I have only watched the Matt Smith Dr. Who episodes, but she is way to important to be handed out as a fake-claim for scum to use.
2) Archetype would believe the claim if Walrus were his scum partner.
I think your point 1) is dangerous and you shouldn't base your reads on this. 2) is an interesting point though, and speaks for Walrus being town.
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Hi!
So I think that you guys should vote for Walrus. As a tree stump, I don't have that capability.
So the reaally awesome part of being a tree stump is that scum can't kill me, which means I'm basically a half-IC (since I'm dead I don't count against their wincon, but since I'm dead they can't kill me to shut me up). I guess they can go back to N1 to "fix" that, but then they're wasting a kill on somebody who's already dead! It's glorious ;D
Why should we lynch Walrus?
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Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
I kind of disagree with you here a bit, Xeiron. I think the path of least resistance for Yuma, were he Archetype's teammate, would have been to push the Walrus wagon. He had been absent through no fault of his own, so he wouldn't draw any suspicion pushing that wagon at that point, I don't think. A town mislynch is also better than a no-lynch, were he Archetype's partner. Pushing a no-lynch turns more attention to himself while pushing for a worse outcome, so I just don't see it as a scummy action.
Of course, if Walrus turns out to be Archetype's partner, then yeah, Yuma's pretty scummy by association. But I don't think that's the case.
I'm on xeiron's side in this argument. Yes, the easiest way would have been to push another lynch. But this is yuma we're talking about. As scum, he knows how scummy he will look if he pushes another lynch and Archetype flips scum. So he might have tried to do something "too weird to be scummy".
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And where's Faust with his plan for ensuring sudgy's plan worked? He was all about it D1.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
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came back, caught up, and now vote: joth
Is it correct that you vote joth because you disagree with him? If so, that's a terrible reason for a vote.
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nvm, he might not have been able to act in the present.
It's also possible that Sudgy was a time-traveler himself, so even if town knew to roleblock Sudgy, it's not the case that they knew which night to roleblock him. Sudgy's flip didn't indicate that he was a time traveler, but it's possible that a flip wouldn't.
I think that if a role was time-travelling, we would know when they flip.
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Now, on some other things.
ashersky seems to get pushed towards claiming right now. I do not want this to happen. I am fairly certain that he is town, and if this is the case we're probably better off if he's unclaimed (because I'm going to trust ashersky's own jugdment there).
So there's this case against Walrus, then there our weird tree stump chairs without a flip. I don't think we can rule out scum!chairs at this moment. He might get un-stumped the next Day or so.
I would like a flavor claim from chairs.
Then, we have Walrus. I get why people find him suspicious. I think there's a much stronger indication that he's town. He claimed even-night time-travelling vig, right? That's something that we might be able to confirm. Here's the idea: Walrus travels back to N1 tonight and targets chairs. That way, we can confirm that he's a vig, and at the same time get rid of our chairs problem. Now you say "but maybe scum will travel back to N1 and kill chairs!" Well, if they do, great. I think chairs is easily the worst NK target for scum. If he's town, he's probably already virtually dead.
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Out of everyone, I like a vote: yuma best. I found his reasoning for a D1 no-lynch already scummy D1, and now with Archetype's flip he's even more suspicious. Plus, he tried to argue against an off-wagon lynch, which seems like a self-preservation move. Add some POE: I think we should lynch off-wagon. Who is there?
EFHW - IC
chairs - tree stump
Archetype - dead scum
ashersky - my strongest town read at this point
pingpongsam - somewhat suspicious, but did a part claim (he has information about missing NKs), so I'm willing to keep him alive
The only one remaining is yuma.
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And where's Faust with his plan for ensuring sudgy's plan worked? He was all about it D1.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I think I am talking about xeiron.
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nvm, he might not have been able to act in the present.
It's also possible that Sudgy was a time-traveler himself, so even if town knew to roleblock Sudgy, it's not the case that they knew which night to roleblock him. Sudgy's flip didn't indicate that he was a time traveler, but it's possible that a flip wouldn't.
I think that if a role was time-travelling, we would know when they flip.
I meant walrus, and he said he is time travelling.
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chairs, what is your wincon now?
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Walrus' role doesn't sound any more powerful than yours. You're an enabler and you claim to have knowledge that all other night kills were stopped. Man. Why don't I ever get the cool PRs?
Now who's exaggerating? I didn't say I know that all other night kills were stopped. I said I can account for how any night kills could have been stopped.
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So, catching up.
Anyway, Vote: Joth
[...]
He only moved over to Archetype after I pointed this out, because as it turned out, his choice was between Archetype and no-lynch. And knowing that Archetype is scum, the above statement is pretty scummy. "Well, I would lynch this scum player, but I really don't want to..". I don't think Joth was planning to vote Archetype at all, but got forced to because of the way the day unfolded.
Joth was on Walrus, trying to convince us that one of Walrus and Xeiron was scum. After EFHW broke up the Walrus wagon, he tried to move over to Xeiron, justifying his vote with "there appears to be a lot of support", despite the archetype wagon having two more voters at that point. The Xeiron wagon didn't go through, he couldn't no-lynch given his previous statements, and was forced to move over to archetype at the last minute.
Well, I do agree that joth behaved somewhat scummy, but do you really think scum would post this:
I really really wish my choice was not between Archetype and no lynch.
I don't, and so I think joth is more likely town.
I could see scum saying that. Why not?
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Walrus' role doesn't sound any more powerful than yours. You're an enabler and you claim to have knowledge that all other night kills were stopped. Man. Why don't I ever get the cool PRs?
Now who's exaggerating? I didn't say I know that all other night kills were stopped. I said I can account for how any night kills could have been stopped.
It does sound like you are saying that you know for sure why there were no other nks, which seems really unlikely.
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I could have acted in the present...but honestly, if you could time travel, would you stick around in the present? :)
I wanted to leave N1 clear just so I could possibly retroblock sudgy, or someone else who regretted their actions. I could destumpify chairs I guess...is that definitely going to work though? It seems like kind of a passive property, which can't always be blocked...chairs could you check with Volt whether or not a roleblock would actually save you, if you haven't already?
Even then, are we super duper sure that chairs is actually town? Maybe he's better off as a stump? Maybe there's some other target or timeframe that would be a better use of my abilities...should I be trying to save sudgy instead for example?
These are the kinds of heavy questions you have to tangle with when you are burdened with cool powders.
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I could see scum saying that. Why not?
If you see that your partner is about to be lynched, do you really say "I wish the lynch would be someone else"? I mean, you certainly think that, but saying it? It would be something else if he pushed for another lynch, but he voted Archetype one minute after he posted that.
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I could have acted in the present...but honestly, if you could time travel, would you stick around in the present? :)
I wanted to leave N1 clear just so I could possibly retroblock sudgy, or someone else who regretted their actions. I could destumpify chairs I guess...is that definitely going to work though? It seems like kind of a passive property, which can't always be blocked...chairs could you check with Volt whether or not a roleblock would actually save you, if you haven't already?
Even then, are we super duper sure that chairs is actually town? Maybe he's better off as a stump? Maybe there's some other target or timeframe that would be a better use of my abilities...should I be trying to save sudgy instead for example?
These are the kinds of heavy questions you have to tangle with when you are burdened with cool powders.
Have you considered my proposal to travel back and kill chairs?
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I could only roleblock on N1, as 1/2 is not an integer.
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Walrus' role doesn't sound any more powerful than yours. You're an enabler and you claim to have knowledge that all other night kills were stopped. Man. Why don't I ever get the cool PRs?
Now who's exaggerating? I didn't say I know that all other night kills were stopped. I said I can account for how any night kills could have been stopped.
It does sound like you are saying that you know for sure why there were no other nks, which seems really unlikely.
I don't like where this is going. I do not think it is in town's best interest if ashersky reveals any more of his information.
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Walrus' role doesn't sound any more powerful than yours. You're an enabler and you claim to have knowledge that all other night kills were stopped. Man. Why don't I ever get the cool PRs?
Now who's exaggerating? I didn't say I know that all other night kills were stopped. I said I can account for how any night kills could have been stopped.
It does sound like you are saying that you know for sure why there were no other nks, which seems really unlikely.
Only sudgy died, so something unlikely happened. I listed some options before.
It's possible some NKs failed, or sudgy was NKed. Only scum knows.
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I could only roleblock on N1, as 1/2 is not an integer.
Is this supposed to be an answer to me? I don't get what you're referring to.
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I can vig on even nights, roleblock on odd nights. 1 is odd.
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came back, caught up, and now vote: joth
Is it correct that you vote joth because you disagree with him? If so, that's a terrible reason for a vote.
I am not voting Joth simply because I disagree with him, but because I think he is scummy in the arguments that he is making. I was beginning to lean scum on Joth towards the end of D1 (see the bottom of my reads post here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329061#msg329061) and also here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329627#msg329627)), and his D2 start has made me confident enough that he is scum to vote him.
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Walrus' role doesn't sound any more powerful than yours. You're an enabler and you claim to have knowledge that all other night kills were stopped. Man. Why don't I ever get the cool PRs?
Now who's exaggerating? I didn't say I know that all other night kills were stopped. I said I can account for how any night kills could have been stopped.
It does sound like you are saying that you know for sure why there were no other nks, which seems really unlikely.
Only sudgy died, so something unlikely happened. I listed some options before.
It's possible some NKs failed, or sudgy was NKed. Only scum knows.
Right, but you have been supporting your push to lynch walrus with the assertion that you can explain his being the only kill. Don't tell us anything more, but since you actually don't know, why use it to try to lynch walrus?
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I can vig on even nights, roleblock on odd nights. 1 is odd.
Ah, alright. I thought the even-night, odd-night thing refers to the night from which you're starting your travel, not the night in which you arrive.
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Walrus, have you vigged or roleblocked tonight (by which I mean the night you've travelled to tonight)?
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That said, I did receive some information last night that suggests an attempt to kill someone failed. That information supports the notion that sudgy died from his weak modifier as opposed to being the one killed unless there are multiple killing abilities occurring at night.
I wondered how you would be able to get such information. Can you expand on this?
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Vote Count 2.4
jotheonah (3): nkirbit, yuma, 2.71828.....
Walrus (2): ashersky, jotheonah
ashersky (1): Walrus
yuma (1): faust
Not voting (4): EFHW, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, xeiron
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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Walrus, have you vigged or roleblocked tonight (by which I mean the night you've travelled to tonight)?
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. Are you talking about what I did N1? Or what I intend to do N2? Or when did I travel to, or intend to travel to? Something something time travel grammar joke something Douglas Adams.
And if so, should I really be revealing that information? I've thought about it and I'm not sure it's for the best to have that info in the open, given that scum could mess with it or whatever. If you disagree, I'll hear your reasoning. I have told you that I did not perform an action in N1 itself yet, which means I traveled to the future last night. I could go back and roleblock in N1 whenever.
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Nkirbit's analysis of walrus's alignment exactly echoes my own thoughts on the matter. Ashersky and others supporting a walrus lynch, do you want to lynch walrus even if he isn't mafia?
No one has answered this question.
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Walrus, have you vigged or roleblocked tonight (by which I mean the night you've travelled to tonight)?
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. Are you talking about what I did N1? Or what I intend to do N2? Or when did I travel to, or intend to travel to? Something something time travel grammar joke something Douglas Adams.
And if so, should I really be revealing that information? I've thought about it and I'm not sure it's for the best to have that info in the open, given that scum could mess with it or whatever. If you disagree, I'll hear your reasoning. I have told you that I did not perform an action in N1 itself yet, which means I traveled to the future last night. I could go back and roleblock in N1 whenever.
I'm talking about what you did N1.
Now, if you roleblocked someone, you probably shouldn't reveal whom, and when. If you do, we lose the possibility of preventing a NK. But if you vigged someone, I think we should know. If, for example, you vigged person A N2, then all our investigative roles should know that it's no use targeting A tonight. Also we don't need to lynch A today. So I think we should have this information.
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I think it's a bit more complicated. If he vigged scum, then they would know to interfere if they can. If it's town, scum have one less nk target.
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That said, I did receive some information last night that suggests an attempt to kill someone failed. That information supports the notion that sudgy died from his weak modifier as opposed to being the one killed unless there are multiple killing abilities occurring at night.
I wondered how you would be able to get such information. Can you expand on this?
Revealing the information at this juncture could be detrimental to Town. I think my information needs to come out when we have a little more certainty on who is not scum-aligned. I don't feel confident drawing any conclusions from night information. There are too many possibilities for last night's results for me to commit to voting based on those results. I will say that it is my specific role that provided me the information. This appears to be a Voltaire crafted role as I don't see anything by that name in the Wiki.
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I think it's a bit more complicated. If he vigged scum, then they would know to interfere if they can. If it's town, scum have one less nk target.
Well, that's right I guess. All I really wanted to know is whether Walrus can still vig tonight, or if he has already done this shot.
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Exactly. It's not so cut and dry.
Plus, it would be kinda awkward. Hey Bob, by the way, you are MARKED FOR DEATH. LOL!
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I think it's a bit more complicated. If he vigged scum, then they would know to interfere if they can. If it's town, scum have one less nk target.
Well, that's right I guess. All I really wanted to know is whether Walrus can still vig tonight, or if he has already done this shot.
Did he say his powers were 1 shot?
We have stopped looking for mafia. Walrus is a distraction. For example, we need to decide if Ashersky's enabler claim gives him another pass today.
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chairs, what is your wincon now?
Same as any VTs - I win when all threats to Town are eliminated. I can dig up my PM to ensure that there's not any funky name for Town, if it matters.
Now, on some other things.
ashersky seems to get pushed towards claiming right now. I do not want this to happen. I am fairly certain that he is town, and if this is the case we're probably better off if he's unclaimed (because I'm going to trust ashersky's own jugdment there).
So there's this case against Walrus, then there our weird tree stump chairs without a flip. I don't think we can rule out scum!chairs at this moment. He might get un-stumped the next Day or so.
I would like a flavor claim from chairs.
Then, we have Walrus. I get why people find him suspicious. I think there's a much stronger indication that he's town. He claimed even-night time-travelling vig, right? That's something that we might be able to confirm. Here's the idea: Walrus travels back to N1 tonight and targets chairs. That way, we can confirm that he's a vig, and at the same time get rid of our chairs problem. Now you say "but maybe scum will travel back to N1 and kill chairs!" Well, if they do, great. I think chairs is easily the worst NK target for scum. If he's town, he's probably already virtually dead.
I am already virtually dead, and would rather not pop a second IC-esque voice (I reiterate my opinion that a Forced Tree Stump scum player is Bastard).
I'll go ahead and claim the little I know from last night, albeit it's very weak data and I wish I could have chosen something else:
I am a Fated Day 2 Tree Stump 1-Shot Psychic. On D2, I will automatically become a Tree Stump, not counting as a living player for any purpose in-game, but I can still talk in thread.
Last night I was able to use my 1-shot power to determine if a given role was in the game. I made the decision to check for Recruitment, as I wanted to ensure that we didn't have a Mentor/Mentee situation (and I felt that was a potentially powerful kind of role that would fit the flavor of this game). There are no recruiting roles in the game.
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I think it's a bit more complicated. If he vigged scum, then they would know to interfere if they can. If it's town, scum have one less nk target.
Well, that's right I guess. All I really wanted to know is whether Walrus can still vig tonight, or if he has already done this shot.
Did he say his powers were 1 shot?
I think he meant that I can't travel to the same night twice. That is a general aspect of the time travel roles.
In other news, I just got on a plane to Salt Lake! It's not California, but it's a hell of a lot closer.
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Nkirbit's analysis of walrus's alignment exactly echoes my own thoughts on the matter. Ashersky and others supporting a walrus lynch, do you want to lynch walrus even if he isn't mafia?
No one has answered this question.
Of course we don't want to lynch town. I'm digging this whole lynching off-wagon thing. It's amazing that every candidate we're considering is on-wagon.
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I am now embarking on my re-read. But my mother is hovering around with chores. I will probably have to complete it at the airport this evening.
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Nkirbit's analysis of walrus's alignment exactly echoes my own thoughts on the matter. Ashersky and others supporting a walrus lynch, do you want to lynch walrus even if he isn't mafia?
No one has answered this question.
Of course we don't want to lynch town. I'm digging this whole lynching off-wagon thing. It's amazing that every candidate we're considering is on-wagon.
so you don't want to lynch Walrus anymore? He could still be 3rd party, which is why I asked the question.
Thanks for the info chairs. I think that was a safe claim to make. But other players should not follow suit!
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Nkirbit's analysis of walrus's alignment exactly echoes my own thoughts on the matter. Ashersky and others supporting a walrus lynch, do you want to lynch walrus even if he isn't mafia?
No one has answered this question.
Of course we don't want to lynch town. I'm digging this whole lynching off-wagon thing. It's amazing that every candidate we're considering is on-wagon.
so you don't want to lynch Walrus anymore? He could still be 3rd party, which is why I asked the question.
Thanks for the info chairs. I think that was a safe claim to make. But other players should not follow suit!
Did I miss a part where Walrus is confirmed not-scum? Unvote if so.
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Here is one thing: I'm suspicious of ash for claiming enabler and then surviving the night. Town enabler (which he seemed pretty sure he was) seems like an obvious first-night scum target, and we know he wasn't doctored.
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
And then there's this. ashersky ... do you have a good idea yet?
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I think as soon as D2, we'll have a good idea (at least I will) of whether we need to rid the game of the power I enable instead of protecting it.
And then there's this. ashersky ... do you have a good idea yet?
More certain I enable town, given the way things went on N1.
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I'm typing a big post in another window, but I wanted to pose a thought here that doesn't really fit into it:
What if chairs isn't a tree stump? What if he has a weird scum power that just hides votes on him until he's lynched or something, and he set up the stump lie to get obv!town status?
The reason I ask is, would our mod really give us TWO ICs, one of the strongest town roles?? And why has chairs never given the flavor claim he's been asked for repeatedly?
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I'm typing a big post in another window, but I wanted to pose a thought here that doesn't really fit into it:
What if chairs isn't a tree stump? What if he has a weird scum power that just hides votes on him until he's lynched or something, and he set up the stump lie to get obv!town status?
The reason I ask is, would our mod really give us TWO ICs, one of the strongest town roles?? And why has chairs never given the flavor claim he's been asked for repeatedly?
It's a good though, but I just don't see Voltaire creating a role like that. It really skirts the BM line, for one, and I can't think of an easy way offhand to ensure balance with a scum player that isn't even listed as alive in vote counts, which are pretty untouchable types of posts.
We could have a bunch of people vote him just to check, I guess.
The role is still super powerful. I mean, he was basically a 1-shot Innocent Role Cop variant. That's pretty huge. I'm wondering why he didn't try to confirm anyone who had actually claimed already was lying or not.
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Out of everyone, I like a vote: yuma best. I found his reasoning for a D1 no-lynch already scummy D1, and now with Archetype's flip he's even more suspicious. Plus, he tried to argue against an off-wagon lynch, which seems like a self-preservation move. Add some POE: I think we should lynch off-wagon. Who is there?
EFHW - IC
chairs - tree stump
Archetype - dead scum
ashersky - my strongest town read at this point
pingpongsam - somewhat suspicious, but did a part claim (he has information about missing NKs), so I'm willing to keep him alive
The only one remaining is yuma.
I still think your reasoning for finding my suggesting a no-lynch to be scummy is invalid (sure the fact that arch flipped scum changes some stuff I admit, but I have already addressed that above, which you apparently countered with a "but this is yuma we're talking about, to which I really can't say anything...)
But if you are dead set on lynching off-wagon then sure the first three I follow you.
Ashersky is your strongest town read? Why? What separates me from him? You don't really say. Or at least I have no memory of you saying
PPS gets off because he partially claimed? OK: I'll partially claim something too... I targeted a player last night and I also have information about the setup! Do I get a pass now? Needless to say, PPS partially claiming something is a horrible reason to give a pass.
And like I said before take a look at Bankers Mafia and MXI--I was there you weren't so either look it up or take my word for it--in both games mafia was lynched day1 and in the first we lost because we assumed scum wouldn't be on wagon and in the second we almost lost because of it (the player lynched at lylo was mafia who bussed day1).
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I think he meant that I can't travel to the same night twice. That is a general aspect of the time travel roles.
In other news, I just got on a plane to Salt Lake! It's not California, but it's a hell of a lot closer.
Yay for the SLC! Don't judge us by our really crappy air--hope you didn't go outside or anything--it is normally a lot nicer than it currently is... well that isn't true, we have the worst air in the US--but really only in the winter months, spring, fall and summer you can breathe pretty well (except for the whole high elevation thing)
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I thought I could finish this before boarding, but it looks like I won't be able to, so I'll give you guys the first half to chew on now. This takes us up through post #307.
Reading Day 1 looking at interactions with Archetype. Xeiron and Jimmmmm come out looking good.
Ash is something of a question mark; the re-read is reminding me what I didn't like about his day 1 claim. Also Arch votes for xeiron for being ash's partner but doesn't actually vote for ash, here:
quote author=Archetype link=topic=9823.msg328109#msg328109 date=1387514674]
I like nothing about Ash's claim. If you're going to claim D1, you'd better have a cogent, well-argued case for it being pro-town. He doesn't.
I would be ok with lynching him D1, but I also see the case for waiting a bit.
If he is scum, xeiron is his partner. He did the chainsaw thingy. I think, might be wrong on the lingo, it's been a while, but he started the Archetype wagon to distract from my ashersky vote.
Those are the lynches I support right now.
I'll vote:xeiron. Same reasons as Jo, mainly. He was quick to accuse. If ash is scum, xeiron would not be the most likely partner. His defense of ash was a little too obvious.
Townreads: 2.7, jotheonah
Scummy: xeiron, ashersky
Null: everyone else
[/quote]
This also looks good on me and 2.7 I think. Scum would likely NOT list partners as town reads.
On the other hand, 2.7 also calls Archetype obvtown later in the day.
Back to ash, he votes sudgy for sudgy's claim before anybody else does. Nkirbit jumps on next.
Pingpongsam becomes critical of votes on Archetype VERY early on.
So, instead of easy to manipulate RVS we have real discussion over an early claim which I chalk up to being great D1 play.
Most of the shape of the game at this point makes sense to me. faust's vote on Archetype does not. I don't see the reasoning, it's not that I wouldn't understand it, I simply don't see it. It looks like a sheep off of Jimmmmm's vote. Now Jimmmmm's reasoning I see but do not grasp. I'd like to hear some description of why Town would never implicate a D1 claim such as ashersky's as being scummy.
Then I vote xeiron for starting the Archetype wagon (yes, I was convinced Arch was town, or at least unconvinced he was scum, I admit that). PPS jumps right on board interrogating xeiron about the Arch wagon.
It's hard to classify the 4th, 5th and 6th votes on a wagon as RVS.
2.718 and EFHW RVS'd. I'm still not so sure Jimmmmm was RVS as the 3rd vote in. Your 4th vote was just ambiguous enough to pass as RVS while still getting you in early in case a wagon built which it did and on which you have stayed. If it was so RVS of you why are you still on there?
And here's pps on Arch in a long reads post:
Archetype caught quite a lot of early heat for relatively innocuous behavior. Initially this looked to be scum driven but as the pressure on him has alleviated it looks more like RVS gone awry. As to reading him Town/scum well, that he goes V/LA at such a crucial point is difficult for me. If pressed to choose between Arch/ash for the 1 day pass I'd for sure give it to Arch. slight town read here.
All this is a little too obvious -- I would expect subtler play from scum!pps regarding a partner.
Here Walrus makes a very flimsy case against sudgy, whom we now know was town:
I think I believe the stump!claim, just because it's so ridiculous it seems like it's gotta be true. I mean why would you claim that as scum? And it will be verified by tomorrow apparently, so we can check experimentally.
Just did a quick reread, and the one who jumps out as scummiest to me is vote: sudgy. First of all, that boomtown Archetype wagon seemed to me like it possibly had scum on it. Second of all, every post this game sudgy has been reminding us about when and when he's not joking. Maybe he does that normally to some extent. But it just seems very forced here: HAHA I'm voting for the IC...no HAHA don't vote for me it was just a joke...all my other posts were jokes but not this one HAHA!
I'll post reads on other folks later.
And here's a Walrus reads post on Archetype:
Archetype: I have a tough time reading this guy, and apparently he will post more starting soon. Obviously the most notable thing is the wagon that ran up on him. I admit that when I first saw his "If ash doesn't get killed N1 -> we can lynch him!" post, I too thought that it looked pretty scummy. But then that "jokey" wagon ran up on him frighteningly fast, and while I believe most of that wagon is jokey, I do think it's likely there's scum on there. So I end up on null-to-scummy on Arch.
Coming out of this re-read, my top scum reads are ash, Walrus, and, surprisingly, pps; my top town reads are Jimmmmm and xeiron. Other people fall in the middle or I'm very unsure on, like 2.7 or nkirbit. But the most exciting and hopefully telling part of the re-read is still ahead of me.
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unvote in case bad quoting made me vote (looks like it did)
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I thought Arch's whole wagon went way too early and stayed too strong not be scum driven and by scum-driven I meant, at that time, not scum-bussing. It seems a far stretch that scum would have been bussing that early but my gut tells me it is quite possible. At the end of D1 I felt certain that I would catch heat immediately today. The thrashing over Walrus is an obvious distraction and I think I am a strong candidate for scum to push on today because of my position towards Arch yesterday. All I can really say in my defense is that there is no way I would have played so obviously if I were partnered with Arch. I may have stayed off his wagon but I would have made sure I was seen voting elsewhere so that no obvious alignment could be read. Also, considering how quickly the wagon blew up at the end of the day I would have strongly considered being one of the last 2 votes on to get the cred for what was sure to be lynch on a partner anyhow.
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I'm typing a big post in another window, but I wanted to pose a thought here that doesn't really fit into it:
What if chairs isn't a tree stump? What if he has a weird scum power that just hides votes on him until he's lynched or something, and he set up the stump lie to get obv!town status?
The reason I ask is, would our mod really give us TWO ICs, one of the strongest town roles?? And why has chairs never given the flavor claim he's been asked for repeatedly?
I didn't see the flavor claim itself asked for. I'm Susan Foreman.
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I'm typing a big post in another window, but I wanted to pose a thought here that doesn't really fit into it:
What if chairs isn't a tree stump? What if he has a weird scum power that just hides votes on him until he's lynched or something, and he set up the stump lie to get obv!town status?
The reason I ask is, would our mod really give us TWO ICs, one of the strongest town roles?? And why has chairs never given the flavor claim he's been asked for repeatedly?
I think it would be pretty bastard to have a hidden mechanic that could get chairs lynched. I, at least will assume he is unlynchable.
But I can think of two other scenarious where he is scum. The first is if he can 'recover' from the tree stump status. Say he is odd day scum, even day three stump as an exemple.
The other is if he is a scum alligned treestump that cannot win on his own, so that we would only have to kill the rest of his team, not him, to win. This would give him a position similar to a town three stump, except that he would try to give bad advice to town instead of good advice.
I think both of these is possible, but not likely. I will treat chairs a town, but not as confirmed town.
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I hear you, pps. I also thought the archetype wagon was scummy. We were both wrong, but that doesn't mean you're not scum. I'm kind of tempted to agree you were too obvious.
But ashersky! He of the unsubstantiated town enabler claim and yet still not NKd night one?
Him I don't believe.
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Philly wifi not working. Posting from my phone while reading the thread on the print version on my laptop, so no quotes.
Faust restarted the arche wagon in a way that makes him obv town to me.
Pps defends archetype AGAIN during arxh's VLA
Arch tried to persuade town to doctor EFHW so her being targeted seems like an unlikely explanation for the single kill.
Arch put chairs, 2.17, and sudgy on his won't lynch list, would lynch xeiron, ash, jimmmmm, me and Faust, nkirbit and pps, and walrus and Galzria, in that order.
Walrus also votes sudgy, trying to reignite wagon. Was scum scared enough of sudgy's power to try to make him the day's lynch?
Pps also gets some scum pints for suggesting a policy lynch of galz (obviously only if Yuma is town)
Post time stamped 11:11:55 am on Christmas Eve, Walrus gets hella defensive. Very scum.
2.7 starts giving arch a pass when arch starts getting votes. Slightly suspicious.
Arch talks about lynching walrus, doesn't vote. Classic scum buddy stuff.
Shortly thereafter (26th, 5:58 pm) he makes a would-lynchx list... And WALRUS ISNT ON IT!
I know his is a big info dump, so let me emphasize the above. Arch says he would lunch W, but doesn't vote, then in his very next post leaves Walrus off his would-lynch list!!
I agree that walrus's jump on the archetype wagon doesn't make sense if they are on the same team. Odd time for a bus. But does it trump all the other scumminess? Not to me.
Archetype's vote for walrus (which someone quoted above) was immediately followed by an unvote (which the person did not quote). Shame.
Then he revotes. He's clearly conflicted.
Just got to yuma's entrance, now have to get on another plane! So inconvenient. Last thought, Yuma jumps in arguing for no lunch but voting jimmmmm, a town read for me (albeit lurky)
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I am posting word vomit style because once work starts I won't be able to contribute as much. Also, on the off chance that I get lynched, I'd like to leave a monument to my reads.
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Ok, picking up for re-read part 3.
Wonder what this was about:
Walrus has seemed to be scummy, but I have a reason I don't want to lynch him. I would rather not mention why.
This whole "scum wouldn't push for no lynch, scum would start a new wagon" thing doesn't work for me, because we know scum was around at end of day and they were doing SOMETHING and no one was starting a new wagon. If Walrus is town, then maybe scum was on that wagon. But Walrus is so scummy.
Say, theoretically, I'm scum. My bus is way more epic than scum!Walrus's bus. It was looking quite possible we would go to deadline with no lynch. I L-1'd Archetype 20 minutes before deadline. Does that make any sense if I'm scum?
Nkirbit's end of day behavior gives me a town read (which is noteworthy, because I've had a null-to-scummy read on him prior). He's definitely not on Archetype's team. (I guess I haven't been considering multiple factions as much as I should, since this re-read was focused on looking at Archetype interactions.)
Ok, that's my re-read. It was enlightening.
Good lynches today (in order):
ashersky
walrus
yuma
pingpongsam
neutral lynches today:
2.71
faust
Bad lynches today:
Jimmmmm
nkirbit
xeiron
jotheonah
EFHW
impossible lynches today:
chairs
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Out of everyone, I like a vote: yuma best. I found his reasoning for a D1 no-lynch already scummy D1, and now with Archetype's flip he's even more suspicious. Plus, he tried to argue against an off-wagon lynch, which seems like a self-preservation move. Add some POE: I think we should lynch off-wagon. Who is there?
EFHW - IC
chairs - tree stump
Archetype - dead scum
ashersky - my strongest town read at this point
pingpongsam - somewhat suspicious, but did a part claim (he has information about missing NKs), so I'm willing to keep him alive
The only one remaining is yuma.
I still think your reasoning for finding my suggesting a no-lynch to be scummy is invalid (sure the fact that arch flipped scum changes some stuff I admit, but I have already addressed that above, which you apparently countered with a "but this is yuma we're talking about, to which I really can't say anything...)
But if you are dead set on lynching off-wagon then sure the first three I follow you.
Ashersky is your strongest town read? Why? What separates me from him? You don't really say. Or at least I have no memory of you saying
PPS gets off because he partially claimed? OK: I'll partially claim something too... I targeted a player last night and I also have information about the setup! Do I get a pass now? Needless to say, PPS partially claiming something is a horrible reason to give a pass.
And like I said before take a look at Bankers Mafia and MXI--I was there you weren't so either look it up or take my word for it--in both games mafia was lynched day1 and in the first we lost because we assumed scum wouldn't be on wagon and in the second we almost lost because of it (the player lynched at lylo was mafia who bussed day1).
Well, I might be convinced on PPS, but for that someone needs to point out how his actions are scummy. Ashersky is a town read for me yes, and I do not believe that saying why would benefit town.
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I am also not necessarily set on lynching off-wagon. But I don't see a good on-wagon case. Walrus? I'm not convinced. Don't think there was a case on anyone else.
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Out of everyone, I like a vote: yuma best. I found his reasoning for a D1 no-lynch already scummy D1, and now with Archetype's flip he's even more suspicious. Plus, he tried to argue against an off-wagon lynch, which seems like a self-preservation move. Add some POE: I think we should lynch off-wagon. Who is there?
EFHW - IC
chairs - tree stump
Archetype - dead scum
ashersky - my strongest town read at this point
pingpongsam - somewhat suspicious, but did a part claim (he has information about missing NKs), so I'm willing to keep him alive
The only one remaining is yuma.
I still think your reasoning for finding my suggesting a no-lynch to be scummy is invalid (sure the fact that arch flipped scum changes some stuff I admit, but I have already addressed that above, which you apparently countered with a "but this is yuma we're talking about, to which I really can't say anything...)
But if you are dead set on lynching off-wagon then sure the first three I follow you.
Ashersky is your strongest town read? Why? What separates me from him? You don't really say. Or at least I have no memory of you saying
PPS gets off because he partially claimed? OK: I'll partially claim something too... I targeted a player last night and I also have information about the setup! Do I get a pass now? Needless to say, PPS partially claiming something is a horrible reason to give a pass.
And like I said before take a look at Bankers Mafia and MXI--I was there you weren't so either look it up or take my word for it--in both games mafia was lynched day1 and in the first we lost because we assumed scum wouldn't be on wagon and in the second we almost lost because of it (the player lynched at lylo was mafia who bussed day1).
Well, I might be convinced on PPS, but for that someone needs to point out how his actions are scummy. Ashersky is a town read for me yes, and I do not believe that saying why would benefit town.
several things. PPS advocated a policy lynch on Galzria AND no lynch while the Archetype wagon was building up steam. Also several times yesterday he questioned the Archetype lynch, tried to talk people off of it, and said it was a scum lynch. I think if you re-read PPS's day 1 you'll see there's a significant case.
But I'd really like to hear morte people's thoughts on ashersky. Day 1, a lot of you were willing to lynch him and disbelieving of his claim. Above, I point out that his interactions with Archetype (or lack thereof) are quite in keeping with them being partners. Yet today, it's all about Walrus and me. I don't want to lynch a town enabler, but I also don't want to keep giving a scum fakeclaim a free pass.
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Here is a summary of pps – warning: post numbers may be off by 1. I strong suggest following all the links to quotes, since some of the more lengthy or significant posts I didn’t want try to to summarize. I've tried to stay factual, pps should correct anything I may have inadvertently misrepresented. I'll work on other off wagon players tomorrow.
Re ashersky
92, 129 and 132 Supports Ash’s claim – “provides leverage against scum”, “so what’s the problem?”, “great Day 1 play”. 133 understands faust voting Archetype for attacking ashersky 155 changes his position after I disagree, explain, and say he and others are illogical. 189 We should lynch ashersky unless he enables time-travel. 265 maybe ash’s claim was “a scum ploy to try to control the game”.
re: Archetype
129 Doesn’t understand Jimmmmmm’s or faust’s votes on Archetype. 133 challenges Jimmmmm’s Arch vote, understands faust’s (see above). 189 Thinks examination of Arch wagon will reveal scum. 207-9 challenges xeiron’s Arch vote, thinks xeiron claimed it was RVS and counters that. 217 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328199#msg328199) Responds to my question re: difference between faust’s and xeiron’s Arch votes. 223 further criticizes x’s arch vote, not faust’s. 265 questions convenience of Arch’s VLA, but has town read. 334 says it’s a “low blow” to vote against Arch b/c of VLA. 437 Walrus’s Arch vote was “weakly flailing” 497 doesn’t support Arch lynch. 557, 559 asks Arch for twilight reveal of his role. 566 maybe we got a “lucky lynch”. 768 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg330966#msg330966)Defends his support of Arch and being off-wagon
re: reads: 265 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328682#msg328682)
re: SK possibility
269, 278 responds with interest to chairs’ 267 comment that sudgy reminds him of sk!sudgy in another game. 305 voted sudgy b/c fits SK idea, not because of claim. 326 FOS on chairs for not responding to requests for elaboration about SK comment. 333 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329029#msg329029)responds to faust’s 328 saying focus on 3rd party is scummy.
re: sudgy
265 v. sudgy b/c of vote hopping and sheeping (before weak claim; doesn’t mention SK). 305 Says voted sudgy for fitting SK model, not for his claim. 367 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329301#msg329301)comfortable with vote on sudgy 368 sudgy challenges pps’s criticism of him. 369 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329340#msg329340) I had trouble following this post, so I’ll just quote it. 437 “sick to death of ‘not me, I claimed’” 689 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg330768#msg330768)
re: Galzria/yuma
265 null read. 352 requests prod on Galzria – should we policy lynch? 357 Defends himself against accusation by Joth that he is “pushing” policy lynch. 423 “warming up to idea of Galzria policy lynch” 448 “eagerly awaiting input from yuma” 452 yuma has pass.
re: no lynch
333 if everyone claims, we’ll end up with a no lynch because claimants get passes. 353 concerned about no lynch. 421 will we be able to get 8 votes? 491 yuma brings up no lynch idea 497 merit to the no lynch idea. Would vote xeiron to avoid no lynch, but maybe no lynch is ok, “considering we are statistically more likely to lynch one of our own day 1.” Solicits discussion of the question. 500 scum prefer non-reversible events, suggesting scum would not want no lynch. 511 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329908#msg329908) 516 clarifies Jimmmmm’s comment that no lynch gives less information for Day 2.
re: Walrus
265 nkirbit’s Walrus vote was OMGUS. “a testy feud”. 437 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329758#msg329758)re: claim 497 favors Walrus vote. 689 thinks sudgy died from his weak modifier (implicates Walrus). 768 Walrus discussion is a distraction (echoing my 752).
re: his own play
140 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327866#msg327866) defends against criticism from Joth. 357 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329267#msg329267), 362 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329284#msg329284)defends against criticism from Joth. 385 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329500#msg329500)Defends against criticism from faust. 421 “I’ve been observing and will be active town” 768 responds to criticism from Joth, already quoted above.
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Ashersky is a town read for me yes, and I do not believe that saying why would benefit town.
It looks to me that you kinda already did
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305 voted sudgy b/c fits SK idea, not because of claim.
I never voted sudgy for fitting the SK theme. A) chairs never backed up his comments in that regard and B) I emphatically stated I was voting him for his vote pattern and general trend. That he might be an SK was strictly circumstantial to my vote but kept me interested.
thinks sudgy died from his weak modifier (implicates Walrus).
I did not intend to implicate Walrus nor was I led me to believe sudgy died from his targeting. I stated that my information supported the notion, that is, it didn't disprove it. Later I stated that my information supports too many possibilities to draw any decisive conclusions. Your interpretation here would be scummy if it weren't for you being IC because I am carefully trying to present my information without giving scum the upper hand here. You turning it into me implicating or taking de facto positions on what happened last night is conflating the facts with an assumed agenda.
Other than that I agree with the rest of the reads.
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thanks for the clarifications.
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Ashersky is a town read for me yes, and I do not believe that saying why would benefit town.
It looks to me that you kinda already did
If you say so.
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jotheonah, can you tell me how this:
Faust restarted the arche wagon in a way that makes him obv town to me.
fits with this:
neutral lynches today:
2.71
faust
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jotheonah, can you tell me how this:
Faust restarted the arche wagon in a way that makes him obv town to me.
fits with this:
neutral lynches today:
2.71
faust
Bad memory. Sorry, a lot of new screen names (to me) in this town, and I missed that when I was reading back. You're officially upgraded to "bad lynch"
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I reread yuma, and in this second read he didn't seem all that scummy to me. The no-lynch is a weird idea, but I can see the reasoning behind it. It would be a pretty bold move by mafia to propose a no-lynch. There's some inconsistency with yuma advocating no-lynch and then later voting for people, but inconsistency is a sign of town rather than scum. He might still be scum of course, but now I have seen the summary of pps' actions, and see much more scumminess there:
- he defends Archetype strongly
- he wants to lynch ashersky
- he does some SK hunting
- he wants to policy lynch Galzria/yuma
The policy lynch thing is interesting, because would scum pull that on their partner? I think there's only one scum among pps and yuma. I also think there is exactly one scum among them. Right now a am leaning towards pps, so vote: pingpongsam
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I'll also give an updated reads list.
Walrus - I agree that he still could be scum. I am leaning towards believing him right now though, at least I'd like to let him live till D3.
Jimmmmm - most notable is that he voted Archetype very early D1 and never changed his vote afterwards. Maybe town with a good read, maybe scum realizing it was too late to back out of his bussing. There's also really little overall content. If we decide to lynch on-wagon, he's a good choice I think.
xeiron - hammered Archetype, which I don't think earns him many town points. Before that pushed the alternative Walrus wagon. Pretty null to me.
ashersky - I am fairly convinced that he is town, as said before.
Galzria/yuma - as explained above, I still find him scummy to an extent, but not as much as pps.
e - not as active as I am used to. His position on the Archetype wagon makes me think he's town though.
pingpongsam - scummy. See above.
nkirbit - my second-highest town read. He already read townie to me D1, and his position on the Arch wagon strengthens that read.
jotheonah - slight town read here. He really pushes the game along. We don't agree much, but that's also more of a town tell.
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faust and I disagree on a lot of things, but we agree on pps.
My hesitancy comes from the fact that I too was a vocal not-fan of the Archetype lynch, and it seems hypocritical to lynch pps for the same crime. But re-reading day 1 showed me that his defending of Archetype was really in a different league than mine. So I think I'm good with
vote: pingpongsam
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Vote Count 2.5
jotheonah (3): nkirbit, yuma, 2.71828.....
Walrus (1): ashersky
ashersky (1): Walrus
pingpongsam (2): faust, jotheonah
Not voting (4): EFHW, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, xeiron
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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I think my lynch will be informative for town but I also know that I am town and scum can't resist pushing such an easy D2 lynch because of my positions D1. As much as it may appear to be OMGUS, it's actually logical deduction as to who is the scum operative working my angle. Vote: Jotheonah.
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That's L-2
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I think my lynch will be informative for town but I also know that I am town and scum can't resist pushing such an easy D2 lynch because of my positions D1. As much as it may appear to be OMGUS, it's actually logical deduction as to who is the scum operative working my angle. Vote: Jotheonah.
Well, what's the case against jotheonah apart from OMGUS?
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That's L-2
I claim at your bidding, IC.
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I think my lynch will be informative for town but I also know that I am town and scum can't resist pushing such an easy D2 lynch because of my positions D1. As much as it may appear to be OMGUS, it's actually logical deduction as to who is the scum operative working my angle. Vote: Jotheonah.
Well, what's the case against jotheonah apart from OMGUS?
Well, more or less the same case he uses against me with regards to the D1 Archetype lynch except for the part where he played exactly as I outlined that I would have were I Archetype's scum partner.
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Also, there's some subtle twisting of a whole other aspect of this engagement that I suspect Jotheonah of withholding information on at this point in the game.
I will at least admit that I hold information that I am delaying the release of for the sake of Town. I have good reason to believe Jo is withholding to the detriment of Town; specifically to get a certain role to out itself.
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Also, there's some subtle twisting of a whole other aspect of this engagement that I suspect Jotheonah of withholding information on at this point in the game.
I will at least admit that I hold information that I am delaying the release of for the sake of Town. I have good reason to believe Jo is withholding to the detriment of Town; specifically to get a certain role to out itself.
Everyone here is withholding information I think. I don't know what your reason is to think jotheonah's withholding is detrimental to town, and as long as as I don't, I can't follow your case here.
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I have no idea what you're talking about. I am withholding something only because it's completely useless to town and can't be revealed without me claiming.
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I will reveal that I know in a most interesting proxy way that a kill attempt failed on a specific Town PR last night. I'd like to see Jo's claim before I reveal anything further. If, as I beleive, Jo was responsible for the attempt then he needs to be lynched to protect the identity of the Town PR.
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Ok, I am seeing the potential confusion here and I'm thinking maybe I'd better claim.
pps, you watched sudgy, yes? And you saw that I targeted him? is that where we are?
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You don't have to answer that actually. I targeted sudgy with an investigative power. Did not learn anything that wasn't revealed in the flip. But I hadn't considered that someone might be watching me.
My rationale was that it would be useful if sudgy DID survive the night.
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You don't have to answer that actually. I targeted sudgy with an investigative power. Did not learn anything that wasn't revealed in the flip. But I hadn't considered that someone might be watching me.
My rationale was that it would be useful if sudgy DID survive the night.
What kind of investigative power was that?
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You don't have to answer that actually. I targeted sudgy with an investigative power. Did not learn anything that wasn't revealed in the flip. But I hadn't considered that someone might be watching me.
My rationale was that it would be useful if sudgy DID survive the night.
What kind of investigative power was that?
Well, at that point I'm full claiming. SHould I just full claim? I AM at L-2.
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Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
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pps let me get this right:
someone targets "The Doctor" (was it capitalized in your PM or lowercase? That may tell us something about whether it is multiple doctors or only the one) and you take the bullet, but don't die
Someone targets "The Doctor" the next night and you take the bullet and die (or did your power regenerate and you don't die again? This is what I am confused about)
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Correct. There is a little bit more information about my role that it is in the best interest of Town to keep quiet right now. It specifically has to do with when my power would fail to work, which if it failed I would not get a notification that my power had successfully prevented a kill attempt. If it fails to work I do die.
"the doctor" is lower case in the role description. The quotes I added for the sake of clarity.
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Ah, sorry just reread the question. I will survive the first bullet strike each night so long as the power is in effect. Should my power not be in effect I will still catch the first bullet but I will die from it. By power is passive, I do not have to target or otherwise take action to make it happen. I get notified when my power successfully prevents a kill attempt on "the doctor".
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I'm not sure why this implicates me.
I'm a [other irrelevant modifier] modifier cop. All I can find out about someone is their modifier -- not their alignment, not their role. It strikes me as the weakest of cop powers. BUT when Sudgy claimed "weak" I realized it was the best use I was going to get out of my power. If sudgy survived the night, I'd clear two townies. If he didn't, well I'd be useless.
I didn't claim this before because it's not helpful to town, of course. I'm pretty sure PPS's results don't implicate me in any way -- they just say that someone tried to kill sudgy.
But if the doctor refers to the character of The Doctor, than it doesn't refer to sudgy, right?
PPS's claim seems awfully wild and weird for scum!PPS to make up though. I'm a little less convinced he's the right lynch here.
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pps, what does this mean for what you think about Walrus? Your ability protects "the doctor" and Sudgy was a doctor. I tend to think that your power does not protect all doctors, just The Doctor, which would mean scum could have targeted him and succeeded without any notice to you. However, if scum did not target Sudgy and he died because he targeted Walrus....well that would mean Walrus must be scum
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I agree with Joth that I don't see how it implicates him
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I'm pretty sure PPS's results don't implicate me in any way -- they just say that someone tried to kill sudgy.
My contention is that if you targeted sudgy for the kill then you'd need to make this sort of claim to explain away why you were seen targeting sudgy which was precisely your assumption prior to my claim.
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Ok, so let me get this right. If TWO people target "the doctor" on the same night to kill him (say vig and scum) then the doctor will die. If pps is roleblocked and someone targets "the doctor" to kill him, then "the doctor" will die.
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pps, what does this mean for what you think about Walrus? Your ability protects "the doctor" and Sudgy was a doctor. I tend to think that your power does not protect all doctors, just The Doctor, which would mean scum could have targeted him and succeeded without any notice to you. However, if scum did not target Sudgy and he died because he targeted Walrus....well that would mean Walrus must be scum
After we got the results at the start of D2 I got confirmation that my power pertains to actual targeted kill attempts and would not protect "the doctor" from his own actions such as sudgy targeting scum.
Thus, this is why I remain neutral on the walrus thing. sudgy very well could have died from targeting walrus and also had a kill attempt made on him. And there is the possibility my notification is not relevant to sudgy at all.
I was very hesitant to come forth with this information precisely because it is so ambiguous about last night's happenings. However I felt it necessary with a wagon building on me since I am the easy mislynch because of where I stood on archetype yesterday and then with Jotheonah appearing ever more scummy and finally his claim to explain why he targeted sudgy.
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Ok, so let me get this right. If TWO people target "the doctor" on the same night to kill him (say vig and scum) then the doctor will die. If pps is roleblocked and someone targets "the doctor" to kill him, then "the doctor" will die.
Yes, and a third condition that my power would not be in effect then a single strike at the doctor will kill me while 2 strikes would kill me first and then "the doctor".
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a wagon building on me
2 votes.
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a wagon building on me
2 votes.
Damn, you're right, I had it in my head I was at 3 votes.
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On reread I interpreted my bolded name in EFHW's analysis to be the 1st vote.
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pps you said your power was one-shot and then you said it regenerates to be used the next night. Which is it?
I'm working on a reread of Joth, so no one hammer.
Was all this claiming really necessary?
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FWIW, my pm had lower case had doctor in uppercase.
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FWIW, my pm had lower case had doctor in uppercase.
I mean, lower case "the", uppercase doctor.
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Was all this claiming really necessary?
oh probably not. But as soon as I realized that someone could have seen me target sudgy, I thought I should get ahead of the accusation with the truth. I had been teetering on the edge of claiming for a while.
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It's "one-shot" for the night. The role description doesn't actually use the terminology "one-shot". There is a short description that states I protect the doctor from the first kill attempt against him each night. The actual power is called "Regenerating Protector".
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This is interesting developement.
I am inclined to believe Pingpongsam in his claim.
What we do not know is whether 'the Doctor' is refering to EFHW or Sudgy.
If 'the doctor' is Sudgy, this claim pretty much much confirmes that sudgy died of targeting scum, not of a NK.
Archetype was a bus driver, and since two scum bus drivers is unlikely, we can be almost certain that Sudgy did in fact target Walrus.
This makes it very probable that Walrus is scum.
If 'The Doctor' is EFHW. There is less evidence against Walrus as he could have been nightkilled. We got one more possible explanation of a eventual missing kill, so Walrus is a little worse off, but not by much.
I also think it is cery curious that Jotheonah claimed to have targeted Sudgy as soon as he thought someone might have watched him. It is obviously true that he targeted Sudgy, but if he did with a NK, or with the role he claimed is not so obvious.
I think the best we can do about Jotheonah is to leave him alive, and have him confirm his role N2.
Have him targeting me (or any other person, EFHW can deciede). If he guesses my modifier correctly, he probably speaks true. If not he is a liar.
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This is interesting developement.
I am inclined to believe Pingpongsam in his claim.
What we do not know is whether 'the Doctor' is refering to EFHW or Sudgy.
If 'the doctor' is Sudgy, this claim pretty much much confirmes that sudgy died of targeting scum, not of a NK.
Archetype was a bus driver, and since two scum bus drivers is unlikely, we can be almost certain that Sudgy did in fact target Walrus.
This makes it very probable that Walrus is scum.
If 'The Doctor' is EFHW. There is less evidence against Walrus as he could have been nightkilled. We got one more possible explanation of a eventual missing kill, so Walrus is a little worse off, but not by much.
I also think it is cery curious that Jotheonah claimed to have targeted Sudgy as soon as he thought someone might have watched him. It is obviously true that he targeted Sudgy, but if he did with a NK, or with the role he claimed is not so obvious.
I think the best we can do about Jotheonah is to leave him alive, and have him confirm his role N2.
Have him targeting me (or any other person, EFHW can deciede). If he guesses my modifier correctly, he probably speaks true. If not he is a liar.
that won't work. because of the other part of my role. I can only use my power non-consecutive nights.
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woop, and now I've full claimed except for flavour
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This is interesting developement.
I am inclined to believe Pingpongsam in his claim.
What we do not know is whether 'the Doctor' is refering to EFHW or Sudgy.
If 'the doctor' is Sudgy, this claim pretty much much confirmes that sudgy died of targeting scum, not of a NK.
Archetype was a bus driver, and since two scum bus drivers is unlikely, we can be almost certain that Sudgy did in fact target Walrus.
This makes it very probable that Walrus is scum.
If 'The Doctor' is EFHW. There is less evidence against Walrus as he could have been nightkilled. We got one more possible explanation of a eventual missing kill, so Walrus is a little worse off, but not by much.
I also think it is cery curious that Jotheonah claimed to have targeted Sudgy as soon as he thought someone might have watched him. It is obviously true that he targeted Sudgy, but if he did with a NK, or with the role he claimed is not so obvious.
I think the best we can do about Jotheonah is to leave him alive, and have him confirm his role N2.
Have him targeting me (or any other person, EFHW can deciede). If he guesses my modifier correctly, he probably speaks true. If not he is a liar.
that won't work. because of the other part of my role. I can only use my power non-consecutive nights.
You do seem scummier and scummier the way this is going.
So you are a non-consecutive modifier cop. Seems a little weak to me.
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This is interesting developement.
I am inclined to believe Pingpongsam in his claim.
What we do not know is whether 'the Doctor' is refering to EFHW or Sudgy.
If 'the doctor' is Sudgy, this claim pretty much much confirmes that sudgy died of targeting scum, not of a NK.
Archetype was a bus driver, and since two scum bus drivers is unlikely, we can be almost certain that Sudgy did in fact target Walrus.
This makes it very probable that Walrus is scum.
If 'The Doctor' is EFHW. There is less evidence against Walrus as he could have been nightkilled. We got one more possible explanation of a eventual missing kill, so Walrus is a little worse off, but not by much.
I also think it is cery curious that Jotheonah claimed to have targeted Sudgy as soon as he thought someone might have watched him. It is obviously true that he targeted Sudgy, but if he did with a NK, or with the role he claimed is not so obvious.
I think the best we can do about Jotheonah is to leave him alive, and have him confirm his role N2.
Have him targeting me (or any other person, EFHW can deciede). If he guesses my modifier correctly, he probably speaks true. If not he is a liar.
that won't work. because of the other part of my role. I can only use my power non-consecutive nights.
You do seem scummier and scummier the way this is going.
So you are a non-consecutive modifier cop. Seems a little weak to me.
no argument from me there. but at least the town won't be too screwed if you mislynch me. just promise you'll review my day 1 review posts if you do.
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I can think of one more way to check Jotheonas claim.
Walrus can travel back to N1 and roleblock him.
If Sudgy comes back to life, we know Jotheonah is scum, and Walrus is town.
The downside is that we are not much further if Sudgy does not come back to life.
Both Walrus being scum, someone other than Joth doing the nightkill, and other powerrole interractions could explain Sudgy stayng dead.
I am mentioning this because if we think this plan is not worth trying out, both Jotheonah and Walrus are on my would-lynch list.
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I can think of one more way to check Jotheonas claim.
Walrus can travel back to N1 and roleblock him.
If Sudgy comes back to life, we know Jotheonah is scum, and Walrus is town.
The downside is that we are not much further if Sudgy does not come back to life.
Both Walrus being scum, someone other than Joth doing the nightkill, and other powerrole interractions could explain Sudgy stayng dead.
I am mentioning this because if we think this plan is not worth trying out, both Jotheonah and Walrus are on my would-lynch list.
The bolded doesn't follow.
We don't know if someone else (in addition to me) targeted sudgy.
Also the plan relies on trusting Walrus to clear his own name, which is never the best idea.
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I can think of one more way to check Jotheonas claim.
Walrus can travel back to N1 and roleblock him.
If Sudgy comes back to life, we know Jotheonah is scum, and Walrus is town.
The downside is that we are not much further if Sudgy does not come back to life.
Both Walrus being scum, someone other than Joth doing the nightkill, and other powerrole interractions could explain Sudgy stayng dead.
I am mentioning this because if we think this plan is not worth trying out, both Jotheonah and Walrus are on my would-lynch list.
The bolded doesn't follow.
We don't know if someone else (in addition to me) targeted sudgy.
Also the plan relies on trusting Walrus to clear his own name, which is never the best idea.
I think it follows.
If Sudgy comes back to life after Walrus roleblocks you, it means that what killed Sudgy was undone,
What killed him must have been a nightkill, not targeting scum, as his targeting walrus was not undone.
You must have killed him, as only you was blocked. If someone else had killed him, he would not have lived.
There is probably edgecases involving other roles, but I think all of those are quite obscure.
But as I said, there are too many ways to explain Sudgy not coming back to life, so there is little to learn if that is the outcome.
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you're right. For some reason I read that as "roleblocks sudgy" because I was thinking of sudgy's original plan. (to be resurrected by being roleblocked)
If scum shot Walrus, does Walrus roleblocking sudgy create a paradox?
sudgy doctors Walrus
Walrus goes back in time to roleblock sudgy
sudgy can't doctor Walrus, so Walrus dies
Walrus can't roleblock sudgy
Am I thinking too hard?
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you're right. For some reason I read that as "roleblocks sudgy" because I was thinking of sudgy's original plan. (to be resurrected by being roleblocked)
If scum shot Walrus, does Walrus roleblocking sudgy create a paradox?
sudgy doctors Walrus
Walrus goes back in time to roleblock sudgy
sudgy can't doctor Walrus, so Walrus dies
Walrus can't roleblock sudgy
Am I thinking too hard?
Yes, having Walrus targeting Sudgy would be bad.
If Walrus is town, roleblocking would not work, and if Walrus is town, he would not roleblock.
Both leaving Sudgy dead, and us no wiser.
And yes, I think you found a paradox. Clever.
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1. Walrus blocks Joth
If W is scum, and Joth didn't kill sudgy
blocking Joth won't change anything. Someone else could still have killed sudgy.
If W is scum and Joth is different scum who did kill sudgy,
blocking Joth won't change anything b/c Walrus was scum.
If W is town and Joth killed sudgy,
blocking Joth will bring sudgy back to life.
If W is town and Joth didn't kill sudgy,
sudgy would stay dead, making Walrus look like scum though really someone else killed sudgy.
2. Walrus blocks sudgy:
If Walrus is town, or if he is scum and says he blocked sudgy when he didn't,
when sudgy doesn't come back to life we'll suspect Joth but still not be
sure he is scum because scum!Walrus could be framing him.
If Walrus is scum and blocks sudgy,
sudgy may or may not come back to life, depending on whether scum also targeted him.
It's really too bad the roleblocker (if we actually have one) was also sudgy's target. If we had thought about this before, sudgy could have targeted someone else.
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Joth partial reread -- this takes so much time! As with the pps reread, please follow all the links, numbers may be off by 1, and joth please correct any misrepresentations. I haven't addressed his posts on Archetype, yuma, or pps. Not sure if I'll get to those today.
re: ashersky
120 lol’s Walrus’s time travel kill then save ashersky plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327565#msg327565). “So we should absolutely not lynch ash. I have a reason why, but if I say it out loud it won't come true. Such is mafia.” 152 in response to my argument that scum!ash could have made the enabler claim: “That's exactly it! If ash is really sure he's a town enabler ... why would he claim that?” 167 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327996#msg327996) votes ashersky 759 suspicious of ashersky claiming enabler and surviving until today. “We know he wasn’t doctored.” 760 asks ashersky if he has the “good idea” he promised for Day 2. 766 Doesn’t like the ashersky claim. Why did Archetype vote xeiron for being ashersky’s partner, but not vote ashersky? (I looked into this, and Arch actually said he didn’t think xeiron was ashersky’s partner here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328109#msg328109), but it’s a confusing post.) notes that ashersky and nkirbit were the first to vote sudgy after his weak doctor claim (this is true) Ash is one of his top scum reads, along with Walrus and pps. 771 does NOT believe ashersky. 777 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331013#msg331013) thinks ashersky was partners with Archetype, wants to hear others’ thoughts.
re: Walrus
262 “I'm convinced by efhw (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328353#msg328353) and walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328495#msg328495) that xeiron isn't such a great lynch today.” 363 Walrus comes out of exchange (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329276#msg329276) with faust looking towny, faust “not so much”. 386 "I like faust's case on walrus. It's not airtight, but it is convincing. I'm willing to vote: walrus" ({L-1}). 459 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329837#msg329837)-469 This sequence is too long to summarize here. Be sure to read it, though. 469 His response to nkirbit noticing that Joth’s Walrus vote was L-1 addresses his change of heart within his recent post (459), saying the claim made him comfortable with the vote. Does not address having put him to L-1 before the claim (his vote was at 386). 488 “vote:xeiron I guess. Walrus does seem easy. Seems to be a lot of support for xeiron.” 647-52 yuma suggested no lynch because Archetype and Walrus were both his partners, didn’t have time to make case against xeiron “I’m not going to argue with scum”, votes Walrus. 667 Walrus is scum. 668 1. lynch Walrus 2. lynch yuma 3. profit. 678 "isn't the most likely explanation that scum targeted sudgy? And if scum targeted sudgy, then the fact that he was targeting Walrus tells us nothing." 685 “Am I really a better lynch than Walrus?” 709 “I think Walrus and Archetype are 100 percent capable of this kind of bussing, so that if one of them ended up lynched, the other would cruise out safe on the bus cred -- which is exactly what's happening.” 710 “I think I'm tunneling hard though. I'll reread the end of day 1 tonight or tomorrow and try hard to keep an open mind.” 758 unvotes walrus “Did I miss a part where Walrus is confirmed not-scum?” 766 Walrus made flimsy case on sudgy. Ash, Walrus, pps top scum. 774 “If Walrus is town, then maybe scum was on that wagon. But Walrus is so scummy.”
Check out my earlier post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg330559#msg330559)for his voting history.
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you're right. For some reason I read that as "roleblocks sudgy" because I was thinking of sudgy's original plan. (to be resurrected by being roleblocked)
If scum shot Walrus, does Walrus roleblocking sudgy create a paradox?
sudgy doctors Walrus
Walrus goes back in time to roleblock sudgy
sudgy can't doctor Walrus, so Walrus dies
Walrus can't roleblock sudgy
Am I thinking too hard?
This only happens if Walrus was an nk target.
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I don't believe I realized my Walrus vote was L-1 at the time I did it. But I know we were nearing the end of the day and I was concerned we wouldn't get consensus for a lynch.
I don't dispute anything else in the summary.
My reason not to lynch ash was because I wanted to see if scum would kill him for his claim. They didn't. So it no longer applies.
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I tend to believe pps. His claim is pretty much out there and at the same time makes some sense thematically. That means I'm back to vote: yuma. I think Walrus travelling back to block joth is prbably the best use we can get out of his role right now.
I would likely be okay with switching my vote to jotheonah if yuma isn't happening.
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Vote Count 2.6
jotheonah (4): nkirbit, yuma, 2.71828....., pingpongsam
Walrus (1): ashersky
ashersky (1): Walrus
pingpongsam (1): jotheonah
yuma (1): faust
Not voting (3): EFHW, Jimmmmm, xeiron
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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I am not sure what exactly to make of all the claims, but I will unvote for now. I don't like the L-2 right now because that is too easy to push over the edge. (although it would be super scummy to kill Joth so early in the day)
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I don't believe I realized my Walrus vote was L-1 at the time I did it. But I know we were nearing the end of the day and I was concerned we wouldn't get consensus for a lynch.
I don't dispute anything else in the summary.
My reason not to lynch ash was because I wanted to see if scum would kill him for his claim. They didn't. So it no longer applies.
I like faust's case on walrus. It's not airtight, but it is convincing. I'm willing to vote: walrus
Grey area, I guess. Deadline was 32 hours away.
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My read list from town to scum.
__Townreads__
EFHW - Town
Chairs - I am really unconfortable with the tree stump role. It is not so much about Chairs as a player, but having a role removed from the game without a flip. I will get very sucpicios if he becomes lynchable again at a later point. For now I will treat him as town.
Nkirbit - Several resonable posts, and joined the Archtype wagon at a crusial point. Strong townread.
Faust - On Archetype
Jimmmmm - On Archetype
Pingpongsam -I had a scumread on him after D1, but he feels towny after he claimed.
___Nullreads____
2.7 - Joined the Archetype quite late, I do not remember much of his posts. Nullread.
___Scumreads___
Walrus - Seemed towny at the end of D1 after pushing a Archetype lynch. But then we have the incident of Sudgy who died after targeting him. With more and more facts being revealed that could explain why there was not another nightkill,
The chances of walrus being scum is increasing. A prime Serial Killer candidate.
Yuma - Scummy for trying to get us avay from lynching D1. D2 He feels a little tooo defensive, arguing that he is not scum because a better plan for scum !yuma D1 would be to vote Walrus or me. A scum narrative for yuma would be to talk no-lynch D1 just so he could use that excuse.
Jotheonah - Scummy D1 for trying hard to lynch someone else than Archetype. On wagon at the last minute, when there was no other real lynch alternatives.
Summy D2 for admitting to having targeted Sudgy during the night.
Ashersky - His cases do feel artificial, like if Ashersky picked out players he though he could push, rather than actally scumhunting. I felt this way, both for his Sudgy case yesterday, and for Walrus today. His claim makes less sense when I think longer about it. How can he be town, enable town, and still play best by claiming early?
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Caught up. Lots of claims.
Is one possible explanation for no NK N1 that scum can time travel and put the kill on N2 or later?
I still think sudgy targeting walrus and dying from that is most likely, although Jo's claim is awkward. I believe PPS (the claim) at this point.
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Jotheonah - Scummy D1 for trying hard to lynch someone else than Archetype. On wagon at the last minute, when there was no other real lynch alternatives.
Scummy D2 for admitting to having targeted Sudgy during the night.
Why fight so hard against no lynch? Why jump onto Archetype's wagon at all when we were so close to deadline we might have stalled out? I know I'm biased, but it's hard for me to see my Archetype vote as a bus.
As for admitting to targeting sudgy ... that's what I did. Would not admitting it have been less scummy?
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I prefer to Vote: Ashersky
I am also willing to lynch Yuma and Jotheonah. I am not yet sure if I will support lynching Walrus.
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As for admitting to targeting sudgy ... that's what I did. Would not admitting it have been less scummy?
I think the folks pointing this out are saying that it reads fairly easily as scum who was preempting a guilty result by claiming to have targeted the dead player with something other than a kill.
Then, as folks ask more questions/raise ideas, you keep modifying your claim to fit/not work as you see fit (adding modifiers, etc.).
That does add up to a scummy claim.
And all this after the IC said not to claim. I haven't fully revealed due to that. I figured everyone would keep quiet to see where we got without claims, if only to see players put down opinions without knowing anyone's results or roles. Now, scum can adjust to new information before posting.
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And all this after the IC said not to claim.
That is an interesting point about Joth. He was totally against yuma's plan of claiming during twilight yesterday, but here he claims. Is it because he is scared he was about to get lynched? Claiming doesn't really help that because we all have something to claim in an RMM game. And he makes a claim about having a role that is relatively weak, which would be a useful scum claim because powerful roles usually have visible consequences. Having a small role that depends on us trusting what he says is great for scum
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Jotheonah - Scummy D1 for trying hard to lynch someone else than Archetype. On wagon at the last minute, when there was no other real lynch alternatives.
Scummy D2 for admitting to having targeted Sudgy during the night.
Why fight so hard against no lynch? Why jump onto Archetype's wagon at all when we were so close to deadline we might have stalled out? I know I'm biased, but it's hard for me to see my Archetype vote as a bus.
As for admitting to targeting sudgy ... that's what I did. Would not admitting it have been less scummy?
The hammer came a good 20 minutes before deadline. Plenty of time for Pingpongsam or Ashersky to vote if you had not.
As for targeting Sudgy, we might expect scum to have targeted Sudgy wiith a nightkill, and you claimed when you though someone had watched you target Sudgy. The claim you did fits both a town narrative where you speaks the truth, and a scum narrative where you did nightkill him. Because of the high chance of scum having targeted Sudgy, everyone who have targeted Sudgy is suscicious. Not admitting to having targeted him would not have been less scummy, but not having targeted him at all would.
As for admitting to targeting sudgy ... that's what I did. Would not admitting it have been less scummy?
I think the folks pointing this out are saying that it reads fairly easily as scum who was preempting a guilty result by claiming to have targeted the dead player with something other than a kill.
Then, as folks ask more questions/raise ideas, you keep modifying your claim to fit/not work as you see fit (adding modifiers, etc.).
That does add up to a scummy claim.
And all this after the IC said not to claim. I haven't fully revealed due to that. I figured everyone would keep quiet to see where we got without claims, if only to see players put down opinions without knowing anyone's results or roles. Now, scum can adjust to new information before posting.
I also agree with this.
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I'm still okay with my Joth vote.
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Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
This also implicates Walrus a bit, right? Despite Sudgy having a kill off of him saved, he still died... perhaps he was both the victim of a NK attempt and targeting scum.
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Wait, the way I'm reading PPS's claim is that it looked like he saved a kill off of EFHW, not Sudgy.... EFHW is "The doctor".. I don't think a random weak doctor would be referred to as "the doctor" in a game about doctor who.
Unvote for the time being. I want time to think it over, but I think Walrus is the person who comes out looking the worst from PPS's claim.. Unless I'm interpreting incorrectly and PPS saved a kill off of Sudgy.
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If PPS is telling the truth, it's is almost certainly the case that either Joth or Walrus is scum, correct? Sudgy had to die somehow, and being targeted by Joth and targeting Walrus seem to be the only candidates (unless there was a ninja kill, or something like that).
I'm leaning towards believing PPS's claim, so I'm pretty sure I want to lynch either Joth or Walrus. I'm unsure which I would prefer.
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Protective roles can't save weak roles. If jotheonah shot sudgy, and PPS protected him, that's plausible. No way PPS or any protective role could have protected sudgy from a Weak death. Jk or RB only, as those stop the targeting.
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Yeah, I know.. so if "the doctor" is Sudgy, Walrus is probably scum. But I think that "The doctor" is EFHW, not Sudgy.. so I am less sure where that leaves us.
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Yeah, I know.. so if "the doctor" is Sudgy, Walrus is probably scum. But I think that "The doctor" is EFHW, not Sudgy.. so I am less sure where that leaves us.
This was how I interpreted the whole thing. From a setup point of view... no way do I make a role that protects a "doctor" when there is a "Doctor" running around without specifically clarifying that point. I think PPS misinterpreted this and unnecessarily claimed... although I am not really against claiming honestly at this poin.
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If PPS is telling the truth, it's is almost certainly the case that either Joth or Walrus is scum, correct? Sudgy had to die somehow, and being targeted by Joth and targeting Walrus seem to be the only candidates (unless there was a ninja kill, or something like that).
I'm leaning towards believing PPS's claim, so I'm pretty sure I want to lynch either Joth or Walrus. I'm unsure which I would prefer.
No one watched Sudgy, so there could have been a third person targeting Sudgy with the kill. It does not have to be a ninja kill or anything.
But still, It is quite certain at least one of Walrus or Joth is scum.
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I can only think of a very very few scenarios in which Walrus isn't scum. I can think of more in which he is.
Why haven't you guys lynched him already?
I'd vote but, you know, tree stump.
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And I have had up and down reactions to joth all day. He made a point a while back about PPS that I found worth mentioning:
faust and I disagree on a lot of things, but we agree on pps.
My hesitancy comes from the fact that I too was a vocal not-fan of the Archetype lynch, and it seems hypocritical to lynch pps for the same crime. But re-reading day 1 showed me that his defending of Archetype was really in a different league than mine. So I think I'm good with
vote: pingpongsam
This is actually why I am voting joth and not pps. pps was stronger and "in a different league" than joth's as he says. Well to me that makes sense. Town can emphatically defend someone based off a read very easily, whereas I think mafia takes the middle ground and gentle defends but eventually gives in to the pressure of bussing....
As for joth's claim... I kinda found it townie. It looked like the sloppy sort of claim that we have come to see from town... not well thought out, not well put together, pieces coming at different times... I mean I just dont' know if mafia claims in that manner and in a way that would obviously look scummy.
But others have put out good observations about it and have shown aside from the obvious elements why it was scummy, so I think I am still good with a joth lynch.
But I am not so sure I like the whole one of joth and walrus must be scum talk: if joth is town that just reeks of setting up two mislynches in a row...
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If PPS is telling the truth, it's is almost certainly the case that either Joth or Walrus is scum, correct? Sudgy had to die somehow, and being targeted by Joth and targeting Walrus seem to be the only candidates (unless there was a ninja kill, or something like that).
I'm leaning towards believing PPS's claim, so I'm pretty sure I want to lynch either Joth or Walrus. I'm unsure which I would prefer.
No one watched Sudgy, so there could have been a third person targeting Sudgy with the kill. It does not have to be a ninja kill or anything.
But still, It is quite certain at least one of Walrus or Joth is scum.
like this^
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If PPS is telling the truth, it's is almost certainly the case that either Joth or Walrus is scum, correct? Sudgy had to die somehow, and being targeted by Joth and targeting Walrus seem to be the only candidates (unless there was a ninja kill, or something like that).
I'm leaning towards believing PPS's claim, so I'm pretty sure I want to lynch either Joth or Walrus. I'm unsure which I would prefer.
No one watched Sudgy, so there could have been a third person targeting Sudgy with the kill. It does not have to be a ninja kill or anything.
But still, It is quite certain at least one of Walrus or Joth is scum.
Oh, you're right, for some reason I was thinking that Sudgy had been watched. My mistake.
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I agree there's no reason to assume one of Walrus or I is scum. That's a bad way of thinking.
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I have seen a handful of people express ubertown reads on xeiron. Can anyone explain that to me. In looking over the last day it looks like the only thing that he did that was "townie" was derp hammer archetype... thought he was putting him to L-1.
Guys! Bussing is a thing, especially when it really looks like your partner is going down. Maybe he isn't the best lynch for today (and maybe he is given some of his behavior today) but giving him a pass like this and saying he is "obvtown" is bonkers.
Note this post for example:
posted very quickly after the new "arch" wagon developed with 3 votes from walrus, faust and nkirbit:
Seems like Ashersky is not viable.
Back to Vote: Walrus, then.
I prefer lynching him over Archetype.
I agree with Jotheonah that Walrus' claim is scummy.
Claiming vig is convenient for people with nightkills. Roleblocker is often a scum role.
His powers seems powerful if he is scum, not so much if he is town. It is for easy scum to roleblock town players. It is much harder to roleblock scum players, as you don't know who they are, and you might cause far more harm than good by blocking some powerful town roles. Time traveling might help here, but only quite late in the game. Vigs is also of questionable utility for town.
I give Walrus about 50 percent chance of flipping scum, and lynching him seems like a low risk-high reward deal.
If we push for another lynch we risk revealing and/or lynching a far better town role.
Distracting away from the growing arch wagon and trying to put the pressure back on walrus.
FOS to anyone suggesting that xeiron is obvtown as there may be a possibility of a scumteam there trying to give their partner maximum protection.
We don't have any idea of the number of scum we are up against right? 3 is max I would suppose... maybe 4 given we started with 4 players, although maybe we are dealing with multiball as well...
But all of that doesn't matter. Basically no one is "obvtown"
The closest I would come would be faust or nkirbit, but even then I am not willing to label them as "obvtown"
Faust I am still trying to catch up to day1.
Did you ever expand on this?
Walrus' claim is something that makes me want to unvote. Can't explain details now. Obviously, we need another wagon, so vote: Archetype. I will happily switch to e if needed, but I don't think this lynch is happening. I will not vote ashersky.
If you did, could you please link it. If you didn't, well consider whether or not you want to and choose accordingly
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But all of that doesn't matter. Basically no one is "obvtown"
*ahem EFHW
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Did you ever expand on this?
Walrus' claim is something that makes me want to unvote. Can't explain details now. Obviously, we need another wagon, so vote: Archetype. I will happily switch to e if needed, but I don't think this lynch is happening. I will not vote ashersky.
If you did, could you please link it. If you didn't, well consider whether or not you want to and choose accordingly
I did not, you can stop looking.
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So I still think having Walrus travel back to N1 and roleblock sudgy is our way to go. There's only one concern: Scum could shoot sudgy tonight, so he stays dead even if he otherwise would live. That's one hell of a confusing situation. Let me try to phrase a mod question:
If sudgy died N1, and some time-travelling role chooses N2 to travel to N1 and somehow prevents the death, and N2 sudgy dies again, do we get notified that he was alive after N1?
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Another way of getting rid of the Walrus - jotheonah situation would be to just have Walrus shoot jotheonah tonight.
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Another way of getting rid of the Walrus - jotheonah situation would be to just have Walrus shoot jotheonah tonight.
i dont want to dictate who the vig shoots. It could very well be for the best that he shoots joth, but I don't want to say "walrus shoot joth"
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I mean, if you're willing to keep me alive until night 3 I can totally prove my identity by modifier copping someone.
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So I still think having Walrus travel back to N1 and roleblock sudgy is our way to go. There's only one concern: Scum could shoot sudgy tonight, so he stays dead even if he otherwise would live. That's one hell of a confusing situation. Let me try to phrase a mod question:
If sudgy died N1, and some time-travelling role chooses N2 to travel to N1 and somehow prevents the death, and N2 sudgy dies again, do we get notified that he was alive after N1?
If Sudgy had targeted someone else that Walrus, this would have been the way to go. But as it is there is nothing to gain by this plan.
If Walrus is town, Sudgy died by nightkill, and rolwblocking sudgy will not help. I Walrus is scum, he can prove that by roleblocking sudgy.
But it is too optimistic to trust walrus to prove to us that he is scum. He would simply do something else, and said he targeted Sudgy.
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whereas ashersky, for instance, has no way of proving his claim at all.
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So I still think having Walrus travel back to N1 and roleblock sudgy is our way to go. There's only one concern: Scum could shoot sudgy tonight, so he stays dead even if he otherwise would live. That's one hell of a confusing situation. Let me try to phrase a mod question:
If sudgy died N1, and some time-travelling role chooses N2 to travel to N1 and somehow prevents the death, and N2 sudgy dies again, do we get notified that he was alive after N1?
If Sudgy had targeted someone else that Walrus, this would have been the way to go. But as it is there is nothing to gain by this plan.
If Walrus is town, Sudgy died by nightkill, and rolwblocking sudgy will not help. I Walrus is scum, he can prove that by roleblocking sudgy.
But it is too optimistic to trust walrus to prove to us that he is scum. He would simply do something else, and said he targeted Sudgy.
Crap, of course I meant Walrus should roleblock jotheonah.
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I mean, if you're willing to keep me alive until night 3 I can totally prove my identity by modifier copping someone.
Yes, but a lot can happen until night 3.
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whereas ashersky, for instance, has no way of proving his claim at all.
I suspect that Ashersky has not yet fullclaimed, so it is too early to tell if there is something to be confirmed.
But for sure, an enabeler that enables someone that is not told they are enabled, is not something that can be disproven.
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If sudgy died N1, and some time-travelling role chooses N2 to travel to N1 and somehow prevents the death, and N2 sudgy dies again, do we get notified that he was alive after N1?
If a player who died on N1 somehow comes back to life and then dies on N2, another flip would be posted to indicate their new death on N2.
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Vote Count 2.7
jotheonah (2): yuma, pingpongsam
Walrus (1): ashersky
ashersky (2): Walrus, xeiron
pingpongsam (1): jotheonah
yuma (1): faust
Not voting (4): EFHW, Jimmmmm, nkirbit, 2.71828.....
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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If we need a today lynch so that we can try and figure out me and Walrus with night shenanigans, why not
Zoidberg Jimmmmm? He's been so lurky that he is a big giant question mark for me.
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Right, Jimmmmm.... his last post was >3 days ago.
Can we get a prod on Jimmmmm?
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Jimmmmm has been prodded.
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Can we have a prod on Walrus as well?
It is almost three days since he was here too.
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If we need a today lynch so that we can try and figure out me and Walrus with night shenanigans, why not Zoidberg Jimmmmm? He's been so lurky that he is a big giant question mark for me.
Jimmmmm certainly needs to post more, but I think Yuma or Ashersky makes a better lynch.
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Walrus has been prodded.
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I feel the need to have my vote somewhere and I'd really like to have it on vote:ashersky
This is both because his scummy interactions with Archetype day 1 and that I find his claim scummy.
I disagree about yuma being a good lynch. I don't want to lynch yuma until after the Walrus question is settled, because he only makes sense to me as scum if Walrus is scum.
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I feel the need to have my vote somewhere and I'd really like to have it on vote:ashersky
This is both because his scummy interactions with Archetype day 1 and that I find his claim scummy.
I disagree about yuma being a good lynch. I don't want to lynch yuma until after the Walrus question is settled, because he only makes sense to me as scum if Walrus is scum.
Dude, how long do you want to wait to lynch scum?
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Vote Count 2.7
jotheonah (2): yuma, pingpongsam
Walrus (1): ashersky
ashersky (3): Walrus, xeiron, jotheonah
yuma (1): faust
Not voting (4): EFHW, Jimmmmm, nkirbit, 2.71828.....
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
This is the votecount now, and I think we are focussing on the right persons. I belive we should lynch among these four.
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I feel the need to have my vote somewhere and I'd really like to have it on vote:ashersky
This is both because his scummy interactions with Archetype day 1 and that I find his claim scummy.
I disagree about yuma being a good lynch. I don't want to lynch yuma until after the Walrus question is settled, because he only makes sense to me as scum if Walrus is scum.
Dude, how long do you want to wait to lynch scum?
How sure are you that yuma is scum? If Walrus is town, yuma's D1 play is very very strange for scum, coming in and advocating no lynch like that.
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I can only think of a very very few scenarios in which Walrus isn't scum. I can think of more in which he is.
Why haven't you guys lynched him already?
I'd vote but, you know, tree stump.
Maybe you want to get that imagination checked out then chairs!
Can we have a prod on Walrus as well?
It is almost three days since he was here too.
No need, I'm here (murmur murmur murmur, posts right after he's been called out, total scumtell murmur murmur). I've been following along, but there have been several reasons why I haven't posted:
1.) Travel fatigue/extreme intoxication and hangover
2.) Budding addiction to Europa Universalis IV. Unfortunately the Portuguese have declared bankruptcy 8 consecutive times now and I may need to start over.
Then there are some more legitimate in-game reasons as well:
3.) I was the focus of the discussion for a while, and there's only so much you can say about yourself.
4.) I wanted to give others a chance to put down their thoughts today.
5.) As I said, it's rather awkward talking about my reads right now without giving hints about whom I will have targeted in the future.
#5 is the main excuse I have for my silence. I would not find it appropriate to lurk so much otherwise.
I promise you I did not select my future target willy-nilly. I did a full-read of D1 after Arch's flip to determine what I should do. But of course it was based only on D1. It's possible I will reveal that info (at least partially) before the end of the day anyway, I've thought about it a couple times.
Here are a few of my salient thoughts from D2 though.
First of all, based on D2, I don't really support the jotheonah lynch anymore, he seems to be acting towny to me. He's been quite active and it doesn't really feel like scrambly active either--I don't think scum wants to leave "monuments to their reads". Plus it seems like the push to lynch him was going through too easily.
The claims! Well I like jo's better than pps' I think. jo's felt more genuine to me, just in the timing, nature of the claim, and so on. pps has a claim that is difficult to verify and might be perfect for scum to hide behind--don't kill me, I'm protecting the IC! And then they just shoot somebody else instead besides the IC. On the other hand, it could be legitimate, so I'm about half-and-half on pps.
I still like my vote for ashersky. I feel like town!ash would be much more out in the open here, trying to tunnel or figure out the set-up or something...this seems like just the kind of environment where he would be thriving. He should be in the center ring--but instead he's lurking off to the side. He had a couple short things to say yesterday (real life yesterday). At the beginning of D2 he made a half-hearted display at zeal by driving for my (mis)lynch, but he's backed off...at the very beginning of the game he made a show of having a plan and being his ashen self by claiming immediately, but he hasn't really developed that...idk something feels off. I maintain my vote.
The same reasoning does apply to yuma, but to a lesser extent. I feel like I expect him to be more active, but he was dropped in the game as a sub, which is a little awkward, so I give him more of a pass. Null-to-scummy on yuma right now.
My townread on xeiron is based on his interactions with confscum!Arch from D1, and a general feeling of towniness I guess. That read is a bit stale though, I'll give it a reread eventually.
There has been some speculation as to how I should use my N1 roleblock. I could roleblock jo and pseudo-clear him, but is that any better or worse than blocking anybody else? First of all, you'd have to believe me a little bit, although if I die eventually the flip will demonstrate I was telling the truth. It would be amazing if I could actually bring someone back to life, that would be helpful evidence. Second of all, I think there are other people who are more likely to have killed sudgy, whom I could partially clear at least if I'm wrong. Third of all, announcing my target leaves it possibly open for scummy time travel shenaniganry. In general I was thinking I might save my roleblocks for another night or so, on the principle that roleblockers get more powerful as the game progresses--by waiting to see who flips what, I can narrow down my retroblock pool to a couple reasonable candidates.
So that's where I'm at right now.
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Hmmm. Here's a Q we haven't asked yet.
Is PPS's claimed power too strong to be real?
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Hmmm. Here's a Q we haven't asked yet.
Is PPS's claimed power too strong to be real?
It isn't that strong. He is basicly a doctor, with the restriction that he only can target The Doctor, and with the benefit of being noticed of successful protection. Sums up to a slightly weaker doctor in my eyes.
I didn't notice that last part of his role before now. Do I read pingpingsam correctly in that he say he know the doctor got targeted last night? I am amongst them that believe the doctor is refering to EFHW. If we know one kill was directed that way, chances are much less of Sudgy having been nightkilled.
That is bad news for Walrus.
Vote: WalrusMcFishSr
Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
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Personally I think this doctor/Doctor business is a little ridiculous. If pps is telling the truth, it only makes sense to me that he's protecting THE DOCTOR (i.e. EFHW), not some random weak generic doctor. But you're welcome to disagree.
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Personally I think this doctor/Doctor business is a little ridiculous. If pps is telling the truth, it only makes sense to me that he's protecting THE DOCTOR (i.e. EFHW), not some random weak generic doctor. But you're welcome to disagree.
Exactly what I am saying.
Pingpongsam knows scum targeted EFHW. Witch means you killed Sudgy when he targeted you because you are scum.
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I've dropped enough hints that I am suspicious maybe scum has me figured out and Town doesn't see it so i am going to full claim because I think ashersky's claim needs to be discussed and this information is central.
The modifier (and weakener) to my power is that it is enabled. I didn't know what that meant at all until ashersky came out and claimed up front. Now, I am not saying that this clears ashersky of being scum and I'm not sure that there isn't more than one enabler.
I think the question on my mind is whether or not ashersky claiming enabler is more or less a scum trait? By that, I mean, I am certain there is an enabler in the setup and if I assume ashersky to be the one and only which alignment makes more sense for him to be?
I have up until this point been mostly in agreement about some of the suspicions surrounding ashersky but have tried to stay away from it because my power relies upon either him or another enabler to function.
I have been collecting my thoughts on this angle since ashersky claimed early D1. I can't call it one way or the other but I am beginning to lean towards him being scum who enables town powers which would be a stronger motivation for such an early claim.
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pps-ashersky scum team elaborate web of lies?
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I can only think of a very very few scenarios in which Walrus isn't scum. I can think of more in which he is.
Why haven't you guys lynched him already?
I'd vote but, you know, tree stump.
Maybe you want to get that imagination checked out then chairs!
Can we have a prod on Walrus as well?
It is almost three days since he was here too.
No need, I'm here (murmur murmur murmur, posts right after he's been called out, total scumtell murmur murmur). I've been following along, but there have been several reasons why I haven't posted:
1.) Travel fatigue/extreme intoxication and hangover
2.) Budding addiction to Europa Universalis IV. Unfortunately the Portuguese have declared bankruptcy 8 consecutive times now and I may need to start over.
Then there are some more legitimate in-game reasons as well:
3.) I was the focus of the discussion for a while, and there's only so much you can say about yourself.
4.) I wanted to give others a chance to put down their thoughts today.
5.) As I said, it's rather awkward talking about my reads right now without giving hints about whom I will have targeted in the future.
#5 is the main excuse I have for my silence. I would not find it appropriate to lurk so much otherwise.
Good that you are here now.
I promise you I did not select my future target willy-nilly. I did a full-read of D1 after Arch's flip to determine what I should do. But of course it was based only on D1. It's possible I will reveal that info (at least partially) before the end of the day anyway, I've thought about it a couple times.
Here are a few of my salient thoughts from D2 though.
First of all, based on D2, I don't really support the jotheonah lynch anymore, he seems to be acting towny to me. He's been quite active and it doesn't really feel like scrambly active either--I don't think scum wants to leave "monuments to their reads". Plus it seems like the push to lynch him was going through too easily.
The claims! Well I like jo's better than pps' I think. jo's felt more genuine to me, just in the timing, nature of the claim, and so on. pps has a claim that is difficult to verify and might be perfect for scum to hide behind--don't kill me, I'm protecting the IC! And then they just shoot somebody else instead besides the IC. On the other hand, it could be legitimate, so I'm about half-and-half on pps.
I kind of agree with you on Jotheonah. His claim came along conveniently covering everything he might need if he is scum that targeted Sudgy.
But is was a consistent claim, and entierly logical way to claim and act fitting into a town narrative. My wiew of Jotheonah is getting townier of late.
I disagree, about Pingpongsam. His claim do not feel like a fakeclaim to me, and it is more or less disproven if EFHW dies before pps. This means scum cannot afford to kill EFHW if pingpongsam is scum, An immortal IC is a pretty strong role, and one i think scum would not like having in the game.
I still like my vote for ashersky. I feel like town!ash would be much more out in the open here, trying to tunnel or figure out the set-up or something...this seems like just the kind of environment where he would be thriving. He should be in the center ring--but instead he's lurking off to the side. He had a couple short things to say yesterday (real life yesterday). At the beginning of D2 he made a half-hearted display at zeal by driving for my (mis)lynch, but he's backed off...at the very beginning of the game he made a show of having a plan and being his ashen self by claiming immediately, but he hasn't really developed that...idk something feels off. I maintain my vote.
The same reasoning does apply to yuma, but to a lesser extent. I feel like I expect him to be more active, but he was dropped in the game as a sub, which is a little awkward, so I give him more of a pass. Null-to-scummy on yuma right now.
I agree with you here.
My townread on xeiron is based on his interactions with confscum!Arch from D1, and a general feeling of towniness I guess. That read is a bit stale though, I'll give it a reread eventually.
There has been some speculation as to how I should use my N1 roleblock. I could roleblock jo and pseudo-clear him, but is that any better or worse than blocking anybody else? First of all, you'd have to believe me a little bit, although if I die eventually the flip will demonstrate I was telling the truth. It would be amazing if I could actually bring someone back to life, that would be helpful evidence. Second of all, I think there are other people who are more likely to have killed sudgy, whom I could partially clear at least if I'm wrong. Third of all, announcing my target leaves it possibly open for scummy time travel shenaniganry. In general I was thinking I might save my roleblocks for another night or so, on the principle that roleblockers get more powerful as the game progresses--by waiting to see who flips what, I can narrow down my retroblock pool to a couple reasonable candidates.
I do not see it as a way to pseudo clear Jotheonah.
I see it as a chance to prove he is scum, and you are town. If you are succsessful in bringing Sudgy back, we get two ic's (you and Sudgy) and one guily result (on Jotheonah). That would be totally gamebreaking for us. If it fails, and Sudgy remains dead, the reverse implications do not hold. We learn nothing.
This is much like tracking someone. If you track them to a nightkill, you are pretty sure they are scum, But if you don't, they are not cleared. Their scumpartner might have done the kill.
So that's where I'm at right now.
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pps-ashersky scum team elaborate web of lies?
Seriously? I'm going to tie myself directly to scum partner Archetype on D1 and then tie myself directly to scum partner ashersky on D2? What should I do next self-vote just to make sure I throw this game into this toilet for my scum team?
Get real.
The enabler claim has some merit. I'm willing to bet there are more enabled roles who haven't haven't seen fit to claim as such. No way am I the only one. The alignment of this particular enabler is the suspicious part, not whether there is an enabler or whether or not it's ashersky because the early claim would be retarded for either alignment to make if they were on the enabled side of the equation.
Stop tunneling me long enough to consider whether it is a scum!ash or a town!ash enabler we are working with. I was/am leaning scum!ash but your persistence at painting me scum leans me back towards you being the main bad guy at this point.
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I've dropped enough hints that I am suspicious maybe scum has me figured out and Town doesn't see it so i am going to full claim because I think ashersky's claim needs to be discussed and this information is central.
The modifier (and weakener) to my power is that it is enabled. I didn't know what that meant at all until ashersky came out and claimed up front. Now, I am not saying that this clears ashersky of being scum and I'm not sure that there isn't more than one enabler.
I think the question on my mind is whether or not ashersky claiming enabler is more or less a scum trait? By that, I mean, I am certain there is an enabler in the setup and if I assume ashersky to be the one and only which alignment makes more sense for him to be?
I have up until this point been mostly in agreement about some of the suspicions surrounding ashersky but have tried to stay away from it because my power relies upon either him or another enabler to function.
I have been collecting my thoughts on this angle since ashersky claimed early D1. I can't call it one way or the other but I am beginning to lean towards him being scum who enables town powers which would be a stronger motivation for such an early claim.
I think cross team enabeling makes sense. Meaning that Ashersky is either scum, or that Ashersky is town and enables scum, and someone esle is scum and enables you.
Given that Ashersky claims to enable town, and that I already have a scumread on Ashersky I believe the first one.
Also, Pingpongsam, can you confirm that you know that The Doctor was targeted by a nightkill?
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PPS, what is your flavor? you have claimed your role, and while it might not be any use at all, knowing your flavor would be nice.
I have been following along but am having a hard time getting my thoughts together. I will reread a bit this afternoon and put some thoughts and probably a vote down
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Also, Pingpongsam, can you confirm that you know that The Doctor was targeted by a nightkill?
I confirmed that my notifications only result from my power preventing "targeted kill attempts" and no other types of actions that might result in the death of the doctor.
My notification reads: "You have successfully prevented an attempt to kill the doctor".
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PPS, what is your flavor? you have claimed your role, and while it might not be any use at all, knowing your flavor would be nice.
Well, I've already stripped to the skivvies might as well show the full monte, eh? I didn't know you could be so forward 2.71828.... good thing you're just a number or I might start to question which way I lean.
My flavor name is Romana (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Romana)
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Interesting, I had missed that pps claimed he knew his power activated last night, thanks for calling that to my attention. I thought he was just saying that was a possible explanation.
I guess my two best theories about that are:
1.) pps is lying.
2.) There were additional bullets N1, either from scum or otherwise.'
So I think 1 is still possible--as I said, I'm not sold on pps's claim right now. 2 is quite likely as well though--2+ bullets is practically expected I think in a game of this madnessness. I know that I can contribute extra bullets sometimes, so maybe an odd-night vig is possible, or a SK, or double scum bullets, or multiple factions...too many possibilities to count.
That was a helpful tracking analogy as well, I'll think about that.
Now with the pps enabled claim. Well I'm not sure what I think about that. I do think that scum enabling town is likely, based on the game-design standpoint that it creates something of an interesting negative feedback loop.
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I just have a minute. We should also consider that ashersky could be enabled scum, claiming enabler to try to find out who his enabler is, or, and this is more likely, assuming other people are probably enabled too and claiming enabler as protection.
Walrus are your powers enabled?
If Walrus is telling the truth, he is a key player for town, because he really has the ability to change the past/future, letting town take advantage of the time-travelling aspect of the game.
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My powers are not enabled, so far as I know.
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I'm claiming now for a reason. I'm positive, from my role description, that I enabled more than one person. I know what power I enable. I believe that you don't know that you are enabled.
I'm now not sure what to make of Ash's assertion that players don't know that they are enabled. That doesn't seem to match up with PPS's info.
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Nice catch, I hadn't picked up on that before. My description makes it clear the power is enabled which I didn't quite get until ashersky claimed.
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pps-ashersky scum team elaborate web of lies?
Seriously? I'm going to tie myself directly to scum partner Archetype on D1 and then tie myself directly to scum partner ashersky on D2? What should I do next self-vote just to make sure I throw this game into this toilet for my scum team?
Get real.
I've definitely used the "Come on, would I seriously be that stupid?" defense my self in games where I've been scum. But by telling us that ash could be a scum enabler of a town power, you're not tying yourself to him at all. However he flips you've still got comfortable room to get out of here.
Meanwhile, you and ashersky together just happen to make a complicated Rube Goldberg machine that keeps our IC alive, so we'd better not lynch either of you.
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A reminder to all players to be conscious of Rule 1.1 - You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable. Any subsequent violations will result in a modkill. Carry on. :)
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Interesting, I had missed that pps claimed he knew his power activated last night, thanks for calling that to my attention. I thought he was just saying that was a possible explanation.
I guess my two best theories about that are:
1.) pps is lying.
2.) There were additional bullets N1, either from scum or otherwise.'
So I think 1 is still possible--as I said, I'm not sold on pps's claim right now. 2 is quite likely as well though--2+ bullets is practically expected I think in a game of this madnessness. I know that I can contribute extra bullets sometimes, so maybe an odd-night vig is possible, or a SK, or double scum bullets, or multiple factions...too many possibilities to count.
That was a helpful tracking analogy as well, I'll think about that.
Now with the pps enabled claim. Well I'm not sure what I think about that. I do think that scum enabling town is likely, based on the game-design standpoint that it creates something of an interesting negative feedback loop.
I have tried to think through these theories.
1) I think PPS is telling the truth. I will not look further at this possibility.
2) This is certainly possible, but not likely. There are limits for how many nightkills there should be in a game. If you are town, we already have two nightkills (actually one and a half), The idea of a odd night vig is nice for making it two kills, but do you really think a vig would target EFHW? or Sudgy?
Two vigs just do not cut it. If a nightkill is split in two over two roles, one of them (at least) would have to not be town-alligned. That could be you just as well as the other one. It is actually much more likely considering a mirror role of your claim would be able to time traver, and would probable leave N1 open as you said you did.
So another full nightkill, then? Either belonging to two different scumteams, or to mafia and SK. I think two and a half kills is a bit too much, but it might be possible. I think Ashersky has a point when he earlier said that any scumteam consisting of Walrus or me would prioritize killing Sudgy harder. I am not in a scumteam, and if we assume Walrus is not either, I do not think scum would have killed Sudgy.
In multiball, I think scum would go for killing each other first (if they knew they were playing multiball). That means no killing EFHW, and not Sudgy, unless Walrus or I was in the team. If I was on I two-member-scumteam, I would thinking multiball. If everyone is thinking the same, we can rule out 2v2 multiball. Then we are left with 3v3 multiball, or MAFIAvSK or not two full NKs.
I think 3v3 = six scum is a lot, but it could be possible. I would still lynch Walrus, as I think a Scum roleblocker is likely, and a vig is unlikely in such a scenario.
A 3? member mafia team + SK, + Walrus as vig is possible, and the most likely, i think, if Walrus is town. But still not very likely. It would assume neither mafia or SK could or would time travel kill, and that they did choose to kill Sudgy even if their teammember risked investigation.
The conclution is that there is possible that Walrus is Town, but there are many if's and then's coming forward when explaining the possibility.
It is easier to explain Walrus as scum, and more probable.
Using Occams razor, we should lynch Walrus.
I am noticing I am re-using much of Asherskys case here.
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It would be a lot of bullets. But also it seems like there's a lot of other crazy powers as well, including potentially doctors, roleblockers, bulletproof-ishness, not to mention all the time travel jazz. So it seems plausible to me.
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A reminder to all players to be conscious of Rule 1.1 - You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable. Any subsequent violations will result in a modkill. Carry on. :)
Well we know someone was telling the truth. But who?
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I think I got my hand slapped for being specific about the verbiage of my notification. I've been trying to carefully skirt the mod-supplied information rule but my mind slipped a bit on that one. Fortunately I'm claimed out so I don't expect to push the boundary any further.
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I'm on vacation with my family this weekend, so LA.
I'm reading along every so often.
EFHW, do you want me to full claim?
Still think walrus is the most sensible lynch. Dude was targeted by a weak doctor and the weak doctor died.
Jo can easily prove himself tomorrow, so I say we tell him who to target and test him.
PPS I believe. Too crazy/odd of a role to make up. We know Volt is a DW fanboy who would want to keep him alive. Anyone know anything about the flavor he claim?
Did we get a Jo flavor name?
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Actually, Jo conveniently cannot prove his claim until N3 leaving him alive until D4.
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Ashersky - I think you might as well claim here. Now that pps's power is out in the open, you are a more important target regardless of what you claim.
There is another way for there to be multiple nk's, which is for scum to go back in time and take two shots in one night. I think we have scum with some pretty powerful PR's, since I'm getting this protection. I also think multiball or SK are very likely.
I think we may be getting to where we would want to mass claim. What do other people think?
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I haven't flavor claimed. I can.
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hold off. Let's hear from Ashersky first.
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Ok. I'm going out for the evening soon, but I'll be back late tonight.
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Ok. Just finished rereading D2. BLUF- vote:xeiron.
Interesting things I found:
I think that nkirbit is town. Pretty strong town read.
Ashersky is interesting. His status as an enabler seems to be confirmed by what PPS has claimed. I will talk about PPS later, but I was close to voting him until he claimed. Now I am not so sure. However, I think that Ashersky could very well enable both town and scum, and scum need to just do a cost-benefit analysis if they think losing their enabled power is worth it to lose the town enabled power. I do not like his tunneling the walrus lynch though. His post here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg330721#msg330721) where he gives his 2/3 possibility that Walrus is scum is a little outlandish in my opinion. I do not support an Ash lynch right now.
Joth. I was voting him until after the claiming and him getting up to L-2. However due to things like this quote I am still not sure about him. Townreads: 2.7, jotheonah
This also looks good on me and 2.7 I think. Scum would likely NOT list partners as town reads.
I disagree with this. I think scum could very well have listed a partner as a town read. I think it is suspicious to give yourself extra town points for something scum could very easily have done. Then there is his claim: I'm a [other irrelevant modifier] modifier cop. All I can find out about someone is their modifier -- not their alignment, not their role.
A pretty weak role. As far as claimees go, I think that joth is on the top of the list for me. But I also don't think we should lynch him today.
Faust- Town read right now. His case against PPS (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331108#msg331108) probably would have had me voting there without the PPS claim.
PPS- As I have hinted at, he was getting scummier and scummier in my mind, and then the claim:What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night.
I am leaning toward believing this claim. As Ash pointed out, this role is very interesting and I can easily see Voltaire creating it specifically for this game. It also fits flavor. The Doctor regenerates, but having a regenerative doctor is OP, so create a role that carries on this function and give it to another player. Makes sense. Right now I do not want to lynch PPS and I lean town here. Also, the extra info that it is actually enabled makes it much more realistic. Another reason that I do not support an Ash lynch. Because we might lose this special protection of the Doctor
Walrus- I still believe him. Lean town.
I will do another post to put my reasoning for voting xeiron out there.
Yuma- I lean town here for now. I think the cases brought against him are a little flimsy, and if there is one way that you want to make me think someone is town is to bring a case I think is totally off base against that person
EFHW- obv!town
Chairs- stumpy
Jimmmmmm- has been prodded
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And I am willing to claim if EFHW wants us to, but I do not think that it is necessary right now.
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Apologies for my lack of contribution Today. Mostly just lack of motivation. I will remedy this shortly.
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Apologies for my lack of contribution Today. Mostly just lack of motivation. I will remedy this shortly.
....slams face into pile of cocaine ala scarface
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Apologies for my lack of contribution Today. Mostly just lack of motivation. I will remedy this shortly.
....slams face into pile of cocaine ala scarface
Sorry what?
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Vote Count 2.8
jotheonah (2): yuma, pingpongsam
Walrus (2): ashersky, xeiron
ashersky (2): Walrus, jotheonah
yuma (1): faust
xeiron (1): 2.71828.....
Not voting (3): EFHW, Jimmmmm, nkirbit
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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Apologies for my lack of contribution Today. Mostly just lack of motivation. I will remedy this shortly.
....slams face into pile of cocaine ala scarface
Sorry what?
I don't think Jimmmmm has seen that movie
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Okay, then, it's funny for the rest of us. ;D
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The reason that I voted xeiron:
I do not like the stances he has held (which I think are scummy) and the plans he has made for PRs (which I think is scummy).
Early D1 vote on Archetype. First wagons never succeed, and usually end with more town cred to the person surviving them. Xeiron was the first "real" vote on Archetype, building a (self-proclaimed (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328302#msg328302)) weak case against him.
Comes up with the plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328756#msg328756) for sudgy to use. (which sudgy adopted)
Then comes up with all sorts of plans (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328860#msg328860) for how to occupy other PRs with sudgy.
and I am being interrupted for dinner. Will come back to this later tonight. (maybe much later)
PPE:6
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PPE:6
I guess it wasn't really that. I had multiple tabs opened and responded in one without looking at others etc, etc. So not really any PPEs
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The reason that I voted xeiron:
I do not like the stances he has held (which I think are scummy) and the plans he has made for PRs (which I think is scummy).
Early D1 vote on Archetype. First wagons never succeed, and usually end with more town cred to the person surviving them. Xeiron was the first "real" vote on Archetype, building a (self-proclaimed (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328302#msg328302)) weak case against him.
Comes up with the plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328756#msg328756) for sudgy to use. (which sudgy adopted)
Then comes up with all sorts of plans (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328860#msg328860) for how to occupy other PRs with sudgy.
and I am being interrupted for dinner. Will come back to this later tonight. (maybe much later)
PPE:6
I will comment on your case against me after you finish the last part.
I would also like you to say more about Walrus. Read the case against him, especially the post under. I would like to hear how you think Sudgy died if Walrus is town.
Hmmm. Here's a Q we haven't asked yet.
Is PPS's claimed power too strong to be real?
It isn't that strong. He is basicly a doctor, with the restriction that he only can target The Doctor, and with the benefit of being noticed of successful protection. Sums up to a slightly weaker doctor in my eyes.
I didn't notice that last part of his role before now. Do I read pingpingsam correctly in that he say he know the doctor got targeted last night? I am amongst them that believe the doctor is refering to EFHW. If we know one kill was directed that way, chances are much less of Sudgy having been nightkilled.
That is bad news for Walrus.
Vote: WalrusMcFishSr
Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
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Ashersky - I think you might as well claim here. Now that pps's power is out in the open, you are a more important target regardless of what you claim.
There is another way for there to be multiple nk's, which is for scum to go back in time and take two shots in one night. I think we have scum with some pretty powerful PR's, since I'm getting this protection. I also think multiball or SK are very likely.
I think we may be getting to where we would want to mass claim. What do other people think?
I enable regeneration. That is game flavor speak for something normally called something else.
Anyone with this power will know what I am discussing.
I can clarify if needed, and can flavor claim if wanted.
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Oh shit. I messed up, sorry guys.
I do have regeneration. That was the last part of my ability that I felt was better not to reveal.
So that prompted me to go back and looked at my Role PM. And in fact, my regeneration is enabled. Not sure how I missed that.
unvote
It's still possible that ash is scum enabling town. But I now believe his claim, obviously.
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In fact, shit, it looks like my entire role is enabled! One of these days I'll learn how to read. I thought it seemed a little too good to be true.
Idk if ash enables the whole thing or just the regeneration part. But there you go.
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Oh shit. I messed up, sorry guys.
I do have regeneration. That was the last part of my ability that I felt was better not to reveal.
So that prompted me to go back and looked at my Role PM. And in fact, my regeneration is enabled. Not sure how I missed that.
unvote
It's still possible that ash is scum enabling town. But I now believe his claim, obviously.
Interesting. So, why do you suppose you would need regenerative powers?
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What do you mean why would I need them? They're awesome! I don't understand your question.
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I find it fascinating that when I posited that there would likely be other enabled roles you were quick to point out that your role was not enabled. Out of all the players, you did this. And now you capitulate and state that not only do you have enabled regeneration but that your entire JOAT role power is enabled.
I'm not biasing this observation just yet but damn it sure does seem odd that you would just now get such major clue about your own role's limitations. I gathered as much when ashersky claimed D1 so I can understand not recognizing the importance of the enabled modifier but the whole bit about denying it is what befuddles me.
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What do you mean why would I need them? They're awesome! I don't understand your question.
I mean a JOAT(vig/roleblocker, whatever else you can dream up) who is also bulletproof for his own protection seems way OP.
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What do you mean why would I need them? They're awesome! I don't understand your question.
I mean a JOAT(vig/roleblocker, whatever else you can dream up) who is also bulletproof for his own protection seems way OP.
And also I did post that without fully reading your followup post. That your become completely disabled seems a little less OP.
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Well, EFHW posed a question specifically to me about it. And I thought I was telling the truth!
But I went back to look at it after ash's claim. I'm as surprised about it as you are. And yes, it is pretty stupid of me...fascinating is one word for it I guess haha.
You're right, when I read the role description I was completely amazed too. I thought it was too good to be true. Apparently in my delight I missed the enabled bit. There's a lot going on, what with the odds and the evens and the vigging and the blocking and the regenerating and I just didn't see it. So that does balance things out.
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Ash yes, flavor claim too.
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Why did you think the enabled players would not know they were enabled, and why did you think you enabled more than one power? Did you also mean more than one person?
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Why did you think the enabled players would not know they were enabled, and why did you think you enabled more than one power? Did you also mean more than one person?
I assumed more than one person, not more than one power.
I thought, given the nature of regeneration, folks would not know it was enabled. I guessed wrong there.
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Ash yes, flavor claim too.
I'm Jenny, the Doctor's daughter.
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what is the nature of regeneration that you are referring to, and what would it normally be called?
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what is the nature of regeneration that you are referring to, and what would it normally be called?
Bulletproof.
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That is in fact what I was referring to when I used the term "bulletproof-ishness" a moment ago.
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Lots of stuff to talk about, I'll go through later and catch up on stuff specifically, but first
vote: xeiron. He is scummy guys. I agree with 2.7 and the points I brought up earlier, I want to go through and point out more stuff, but don't have the time atm, but will. But mostly he is trying sooooooo hard to force through walrus's lynch. It all looks pre-planned to me. Either that they figured out a way to manipulate the sudgy-walrus interaction or he stumbled into it and is trying to capitalize on it as much as possible... And all of it I think will result in a walrus mislynch and xeiron will be all like "guys it was obvious, you can't blame me for the mislynch...." well, xeiron, here is me telling you right now that if we lynch walrus and if he is town I am going to hold you accountable, guaranteed. i wont' stop talking about it and will be all over it. So you had better be pretty sure he is scum... but I dont' think you actually think he is, because i think you are scum
I am not surprised that ash enables the regeneration. That is totally what I had in my mind when PPS claimed that he regenerated w/o saying anything else about it. Totally makes sense and is a cool feature. PPS can you clarify for me one more time that you only see people targeting the doctor to kill and not just targeting in general. Would you mind checking your PM to just be sure (see walrus misreading PM potentially above)
Walrus's weird claim right now screams town.
Someone said I am posting less. Yes, this is RMM. I post less and take it less seriously, so don't expect that to change at all. I believe I stipulated that on my initial /in at the beginning of the thread.
Hmmm... other stuff I am sure. But mostly I want to vote for xeiron, think the walrus lynch is bad that was either setup by scum or is being taken advantage of by scum.
Oh... Also I am all for mass claiming and would encourage EFHW to have xeiron claim first.
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Oh I wanted to ask ash a question he might not want to answer... ash if you are willing to say is your enabling power passive or active. That is can it be blocked in anyway beside from you dying? Basically could someone protect you w/o having your enabling power be blocked or is it all dependent on you being alive.
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PPS can you clarify for me one more time that you only see people targeting the doctor to kill and not just targeting in general.
Right, I don't know who did the targeting only that the doctor was targeted for a killing action. As far as I know I would be left completely unaware of any other types of actions targeted towards the doctor or myself.
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Okay well I'm kind of caught up on Today's posts. I'm extremely confused, but I'll say what thoughts I do have.
nkirbit's thoughts on Walrus read Towny to me. Unlike others, he analysed actual in-thread evidence rather than trying to guess scum kills and other night actions. What we know on that is pretty simple - sudgy targeted Walrus and died. No one else died. Scum could have killed sudgy, or they could have killed on a different Night. This casts suspicion on Walrus, but in-thread interactions should also be considered.
Not sure what to make of joth vs yuma. I don't understand pps's claim, although I'm pretty sure "the Doctor" or "the doctor" means EFHW.
e read scummy to me, although I can't remember why. Will have to revisit that.
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EFHW or chairs - do you have any particular re-reads etc that you think it would be good for me to do to get myself back into the game?
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EFHW, do you have any other role parameters outside of being the IC? A simple yes or no will suffice and a no comment is understandable but it would pertain to ascertaining whether you are "the doctor" or if maybe I protect someone else or multiple doctor titles/roles.
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So everything is all together I will continue where I left off.
The reason that I voted xeiron:
I do not like the stances he has held (which I think are scummy) and the plans he has made for PRs (which I think are scummy).
Early D1 vote on Archetype. First wagons never succeed, and usually end with more town cred to the person surviving them. Xeiron was the first "real" vote on Archetype, building a (self-proclaimed (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328302#msg328302)) weak case against him.
Comes up with the plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328756#msg328756) for sudgy to use. (which sudgy adopted)
Then comes up with all sorts of plans (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328860#msg328860) for how to occupy other PRs with sudgy.
Has an interesting post about how sudgy will probably die at night early, or if he doesn't we should lynch him. If he has neither target scum or been nightkilled by then he is probably scum.
Basically this reads to me that he is telling Sudgy that his role must be used as a cop or we will lynch him. (directing how PRs "should" be used)
Votes Ashersky (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329656#msg329656), then votes Walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329747#msg329747) when the wagon is really starting to get legs (L-3 vote), then switches back to Ashersky (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329814#msg329814) after Walrus gets to L-1. He then switches back to Walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329852#msg329852) after people start leaving Walrus for Archetype. Then hammers Archetype (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329943#msg329943) when it becomes inevitable. These are all back to back to back posts for him too. He couldn't make up his mind whether he wanted to lynch town!ash or town!walrus then finally derp?hammers scum!arch. If Ash or Walrus flip scum, then I think that clears xeiron, but right now his end of D1 voting is not extremely towny. In fact, xeiron himself kind of calls it scummy. Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
Xeiron did not even consider Archetype until the hammer
Xeiron has plans for Walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331261#msg331261) to confirm Walrus/Joth as town or scum
Has a reads post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331331#msg331331) where he accuses Joth of being scum for doing exactly what he himself did.Scummy D1 for trying hard to lynch someone else than Archetype. On wagon at the last minute, when there was no other real lynch alternatives.
Jumps back onto Walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331570#msg331570) after some claims.
So conclusion: He hasn't done anything to stand out as scummy. He hasn't done anything to stand out as towny. Most of the claims we have had I don't want to lynch right now. Ash could very well be scum enabling town, but as far as claims go, I like the ones he enables so we could always lynch Ash later, but not today. Not a fan of Walrus, PPS, or Joth lynches. Right now xeiron is my favorite lynch. He has done just enough to avoid a lot of scrutiny, but I think that under scrutiny he is scum
PPE:3
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Oh I wanted to ask ash a question he might not want to answer... ash if you are willing to say is your enabling power passive or active. That is can it be blocked in anyway beside from you dying? Basically could someone protect you w/o having your enabling power be blocked or is it all dependent on you being alive.
I am willing to say that as long as I live, regeneration is enabled. Doc, JK, etc. won't stop it, but would keep me alive. Does that answer your question?
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I could get on board with a Xeiron lynch. I've sort of felt that most of the people involved in claims are towny.. or at the very least, I can't tell them apart. I don't want to lynch any of them.
I think Joth has been more towny as of late.
I'm also less against a Walrus lynch than I was earlier, because of the info PPS brought forward. I do think it incriminates Walrus a little bit, but I still am of the belief that Walrus is not Archetype's partner. Before I said I would absolutely not go here.. now I think it's okay, both because there's a decent chance Walrus is our third party killer and it will give us information.
But, for the time being, I think 2.7 is making a lot of good points about Xeiron. Enough for me to Vote: Xeiron
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[case against Walrus]
Yeah, there are some good points that you make there. Walrus could very well be scum just like you say. But there was so much going on N1 that could manipulate actions that I do not really like lynching someone based on that sole read of what we assume sudgy did. Also, the new information about his whole role being enabled is interesting. I want to let it play out one more night for him and all the other (currently) claimed roles.
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EFHW or chairs - do you have any particular re-reads etc that you think it would be good for me to do to get myself back into the game?
We could use a detailed reread of Walrus or 2.7.
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Vote Count 2.EFHW
jotheonah (1): pingpongsam
Walrus (2): ashersky, xeiron
ashersky (1): jotheonah
yuma (1): faust
xeiron (3): 2.71828....., yuma, nkirbit
Not voting (3): EFHW, Jimmmmm, Walrus
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EFHW, do you have any other role parameters outside of being the IC? A simple yes or no will suffice and a no comment is understandable but it would pertain to ascertaining whether you are "the doctor" or if maybe I protect someone else or multiple doctor titles/roles.
My role is specifically called the Doctor.
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Oh I wanted to ask ash a question he might not want to answer... ash if you are willing to say is your enabling power passive or active. That is can it be blocked in anyway beside from you dying? Basically could someone protect you w/o having your enabling power be blocked or is it all dependent on you being alive.
I am willing to say that as long as I live, regeneration is enabled. Doc, JK, etc. won't stop it, but would keep me alive. Does that answer your question?
Yes thanks
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So at this point I would vote for jotheonah (probably less so than any of these others actually) Jimmmm or xeiron.
I am not saying the others are off the table, but to an extent they are... and I realize that none of these players were on the archetype wagon, but I don't really like the PPS lynch or the ash lynch and obviously don't like my lynch so there you go...
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Ok.
One of these bulletproof claimants has to be scum.
I mean a bunch of bulletproof townies running around is OP. I feel strongly that ash enables a mix of scum and town.
Ash himself, though, is reading townier after his claim. So unvote.
Walrus is by far the scummiest claim on the table, as I have said over and over. He would be my pick for a lynch but I don't want to interfere with night action shenanigans.
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Ashersky - I think you might as well claim here. Now that pps's power is out in the open, you are a more important target regardless of what you claim.
There is another way for there to be multiple nk's, which is for scum to go back in time and take two shots in one night. I think we have scum with some pretty powerful PR's, since I'm getting this protection. I also think multiball or SK are very likely.
I think we may be getting to where we would want to mass claim. What do other people think?
I enable regeneration. That is game flavor speak for something normally called something else.
Anyone with this power will know what I am discussing.
I can clarify if needed, and can flavor claim if wanted.
ash - is this your full claim? Regeneration Enabler?
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Other thoughts:
Walrus' update to his claim seems somewhat townie, I just don't see scum, especially new scum (Walrus hasn't been scum before, right? Except maybe ongoing games) to do something like that.
ashersky: When you said you could account for night kills to fail, was the sole reason for this that you knew there were regenerating roles?
The accusations against xeiron I don't find convincing. I still would like a yuma lynch. Does everyone here think that all scum were on-wagon bussing their partner D1? Because if not, yuma is by POE the off-wagon scum (I guess it could be ashersky, but for that ash would need to be scum enabling town).
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Okay well I'm kind of caught up on Today's posts. I'm extremely confused, but I'll say what thoughts I do have.
nkirbit's thoughts on Walrus read Towny to me. Unlike others, he analysed actual in-thread evidence rather than trying to guess scum kills and other night actions. What we know on that is pretty simple - sudgy targeted Walrus and died. No one else died. Scum could have killed sudgy, or they could have killed on a different Night. This casts suspicion on Walrus, but in-thread interactions should also be considered.
Not sure what to make of joth vs yuma. I don't understand pps's claim, although I'm pretty sure "the Doctor" or "the doctor" means EFHW.
e read scummy to me, although I can't remember why. Will have to revisit that.
You are missing part of the evidence. What we know:
-Sudgy targeted Walrus and died.
-Scum targeted EFHW, who was protected by pingpongsam. (According to pingpongsam)
-No one else died.
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In fact, shit, it looks like my entire role is enabled! One of these days I'll learn how to read. I thought it seemed a little too good to be true.
Idk if ash enables the whole thing or just the regeneration part. But there you go.
"It looks like"? Have you asked for mod confirmation? Have you known about your enabled-ness at the start of the game?
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-Scum targeted EFHW, who was protected by pingpongsam. (According to pingpongsam)
Hmm, if that's true and we believe there's only one scum faction, that's pretty damning.
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So everything is all together I will continue where I left off.
The reason that I voted xeiron:
I do not like the stances he has held (which I think are scummy) and the plans he has made for PRs (which I think are scummy).
Early D1 vote on Archetype. First wagons never succeed, and usually end with more town cred to the person surviving them. Xeiron was the first "real" vote on Archetype, building a (self-proclaimed (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328302#msg328302)) weak case against him.
Good point. not much to say about that.
Comes up with the plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328756#msg328756) for sudgy to use. (which sudgy adopted)
Then comes up with all sorts of plans (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328860#msg328860) for how to occupy other PRs with sudgy.
Sudgy asked for advice on how to use his role, I came up with a plan That i think is the best use of his role.
Those others are not plans, they are exaples on how other powerroles could make us trust Sudgys result. I am not saying The roles should be used in this way.
Has an interesting post about how sudgy will probably die at night early, or if he doesn't we should lynch him. If he has neither target scum or been nightkilled by then he is probably scum.
Basically this reads to me that he is telling Sudgy that his role must be used as a cop or we will lynch him. (directing how PRs "should" be used)
Votes Ashersky (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329656#msg329656), then votes Walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329747#msg329747) when the wagon is really starting to get legs (L-3 vote), then switches back to Ashersky (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329814#msg329814) after Walrus gets to L-1. He then switches back to Walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329852#msg329852) after people start leaving Walrus for Archetype. Then hammers Archetype (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329943#msg329943) when it becomes inevitable. These are all back to back to back posts for him too. He couldn't make up his mind whether he wanted to lynch town!ash or town!walrus then finally derp?hammers scum!arch. If Ash or Walrus flip scum, then I think that clears xeiron, but right now his end of D1 voting is not extremely towny. In fact, xeiron himself kind of calls it scummy. Yuma for trying to avoid a lynch at all.
why is this scummy?
It is scummy, because in a situation where we are close to deadline, and blitzvoting to reach a lynch, and one of the feasable lynch canditates is scum (Archetype), other scum members would try to avoid having their teammate lynched. Either by pushing another wagon, or by just trying to avoid any lynch as you did.
Xeiron did not even consider Archetype until the hammer
I voted Asherskyas my top scumread. Then Walrus, when we needed a lynch. Then Ashersky when EFHW wanted an alternative wagon. Then Walrus when it became clear that an Ashersky wagon was not going anywhere. Then Archetype because I think any lynch os better than no lynch.
I agree that my position last on the archetype wagon is scummy, just as I think Jotheonahs position is.
Xeiron has plans for Walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331261#msg331261) to confirm Walrus/Joth as town or scum
As I pointed out. the reason for posting this plan, was that it would require both walrus and Jotheonah to live today. If the plan was not worth going for both Joth and Walrus, would go on my lynch list.
Has a reads post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331331#msg331331) where he accuses Joth of being scum for doing exactly what he himself did.Scummy D1 for trying hard to lynch someone else than Archetype. On wagon at the last minute, when there was no other real lynch alternatives.
Jumps back onto Walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331570#msg331570) after some claims.
Because I do think pingpongsams result is pretty damning for Walrus.
So conclusion: He hasn't done anything to stand out as scummy. He hasn't done anything to stand out as towny. Most of the claims we have had I don't want to lynch right now. Ash could very well be scum enabling town, but as far as claims go, I like the ones he enables so we could always lynch Ash later, but not today. Not a fan of Walrus, PPS, or Joth lynches. Right now xeiron is my favorite lynch. He has done just enough to avoid a lot of scrutiny, but I think that under scrutiny he is scum
PPE:3
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Ashersky - I think you might as well claim here. Now that pps's power is out in the open, you are a more important target regardless of what you claim.
There is another way for there to be multiple nk's, which is for scum to go back in time and take two shots in one night. I think we have scum with some pretty powerful PR's, since I'm getting this protection. I also think multiball or SK are very likely.
I think we may be getting to where we would want to mass claim. What do other people think?
I enable regeneration. That is game flavor speak for something normally called something else.
Anyone with this power will know what I am discussing.
I can clarify if needed, and can flavor claim if wanted.
ash - is this your full claim? Regeneration Enabler?
I decline to answer this specific question.
Other thoughts:
Walrus' update to his claim seems somewhat townie, I just don't see scum, especially new scum (Walrus hasn't been scum before, right? Except maybe ongoing games) to do something like that.
ashersky: When you said you could account for night kills to fail, was the sole reason for this that you knew there were regenerating roles?
The accusations against xeiron I don't find convincing. I still would like a yuma lynch. Does everyone here think that all scum were on-wagon bussing their partner D1? Because if not, yuma is by POE the off-wagon scum (I guess it could be ashersky, but for that ash would need to be scum enabling town).
Yes, I believe that missing NKs, if there are any, can be explained by regeneration.
I believe this was Volt's thematic way around having the doctor problem described in his example.
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The Day end directly after the weekend, right? I think we should get a wagon moving.
This is my lynch pool:
Lynch!: yuma, jotheonah
Would lynch: e, Jimmmmm
Might lynch: xeiron, Walrus
Won't lynch: pingpongsam, nkirbit, EFHW, ashersky, faust
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quick thoughts before I head to work for the day.
still like the xeiron lynch, but am also warming up to considering faust. This isn't OMGUS, but rather OMGUR which stands for "OMG you are" doing exactly what I would expect scum to do. This is how I feel about xeiron as well. Specifically I think going into night1 losing a member of the team they had to regroup quick and needed (like desperately needed) a mislynch today. I think perhaps they settled on Walrus and me as the obvious mislynch candidates and have been pushing it since the start of the day. So it isn't OMGUS, it is me seeing exactly what I would expect scum to do given my alignment (which I know to be town, but you guys don't). Hence my suspicion on joth, faust and xeiron.
I think scum remains (maybe not exclusively, but certainy there) in the players that haven't yet claimed... so 2.7, jimmmm, faust, xeiron and others (myself included here). Look back at modern community as an example. In the last few days who were the players that hadn't claimed? Three scum and like 1 townie... In closed games like these scum want to claim last because if they claim something that another player has they can get counter claimed, so the later they claim the better. Of course they are going to use "pro-town" excuses to not claim and everyone will give them uber amounts of towncred because generally speaking, not claiming is the correct move for town... but again I disagree with this current setup. So that is another point against faust, xeiron, etc...
To speak about the points against me, well I have already responded to them. Basically I think it boils down to people thinking it suspicious that I suggested a no-lynch when we came close to day and when archetype was a viable lynch candidate. Initially people thought that because walrus was the other option it must be a walrus-archetype-yuma scum team. Sure. Ok. Except that the obvious move there would have been to vote for xeiron and put all of them at 4 votes. However this has been refuted by a clever technique called "praise." Basically faust and others have said "yeah, but this yuma we are talking about..." and left it at that. How does that have any significance? You can do that to anyone. Everyone here is capable of doing weird stuff as we have seen in this game and others. I am no more capable of doing something bat crazy than the rest of you. So if this is your whole argument, it is worthless. If you have anything else to add to it, let me know. But really I think it is a scummy technique used to manipulate people into thinking that I and only I would be capable of doing something crazy like that and so must be scum, when really, anyone at anytime is perfectly capable of being crazy.
And again I am ready to claim at any timea nd think we should head down that road. I would encourage putting xeiron and maybe faust at the top of that list, but I would be willing to claim whenever in that list that EFHW dictates.
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You posit that in this setup claiming is elucidating and that hesitancy to claim may be a scumtell because the later claimants could adapt their claims to fit those already made public knowledge.
Then you suggest that the others claim ahead of you.
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And again I am ready to claim at any timea nd think we should head down that road. I would encourage putting xeiron and maybe faust at the top of that list, but I would be willing to claim whenever in that list that EFHW dictates.
I agree with Yuma's whole post there, and specifically this last bit about claiming. I will claim as EFHW dictates, as I mentioned previously (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331654#msg331654).
PPE: I read that as Yuma just waiting for the IC to give the green light, not as a "I want everyone else to claim first"
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I will claim at EFHW's request.
Also, will get those re-reads done as per EFHW's request.
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quick thoughts before I head to work for the day.
still like the xeiron lynch, but am also warming up to considering faust. This isn't OMGUS, but rather OMGUR which stands for "OMG you are" doing exactly what I would expect scum to do. This is how I feel about xeiron as well. Specifically I think going into night1 losing a member of the team they had to regroup quick and needed (like desperately needed) a mislynch today. I think perhaps they settled on Walrus and me as the obvious mislynch candidates and have been pushing it since the start of the day. So it isn't OMGUS, it is me seeing exactly what I would expect scum to do given my alignment (which I know to be town, but you guys don't). Hence my suspicion on joth, faust and xeiron.
I have not pushed Walrus. I have not pushed you since the start of the Day. Really, your case is based on lies. And what's more, is pushing for a lynch scummy now? I guess you would rather no-lynch again, right?
I think scum remains (maybe not exclusively, but certainy there) in the players that haven't yet claimed... so 2.7, jimmmm, faust, xeiron and others (myself included here). Look back at modern community as an example. In the last few days who were the players that hadn't claimed? Three scum and like 1 townie... In closed games like these scum want to claim last because if they claim something that another player has they can get counter claimed, so the later they claim the better. Of course they are going to use "pro-town" excuses to not claim and everyone will give them uber amounts of towncred because generally speaking, not claiming is the correct move for town... but again I disagree with this current setup. So that is another point against faust, xeiron, etc...
So it's suspicious now not to have claimed? You know who the players that claimed are? Exactly those who have come under suspicion so far (and ashersky). Scum will claim when under suspicion, even more likely so than town. Now you're arguing that those who have claimed deserve town points, that's just false logic - they wouldn't have claimed if they hadn't seen the need to. Ashersky is really the only one who claimed without being suspected (and sudgy/chairs, but well, they're "dead" anyway).
To speak about the points against me, well I have already responded to them. Basically I think it boils down to people thinking it suspicious that I suggested a no-lynch when we came close to day and when archetype was a viable lynch candidate. Initially people thought that because walrus was the other option it must be a walrus-archetype-yuma scum team. Sure. Ok. Except that the obvious move there would have been to vote for xeiron and put all of them at 4 votes. However this has been refuted by a clever technique called "praise." Basically faust and others have said "yeah, but this yuma we are talking about..." and left it at that. How does that have any significance? You can do that to anyone. Everyone here is capable of doing weird stuff as we have seen in this game and others. I am no more capable of doing something bat crazy than the rest of you. So if this is your whole argument, it is worthless. If you have anything else to add to it, let me know. But really I think it is a scummy technique used to manipulate people into thinking that I and only I would be capable of doing something crazy like that and so must be scum, when really, anyone at anytime is perfectly capable of being crazy.
What points against you mainly is POE. You advocating no-lynch is just the icing on the cake.
And again I am ready to claim at any timea nd think we should head down that road. I would encourage putting xeiron and maybe faust at the top of that list, but I would be willing to claim whenever in that list that EFHW dictates.
You did you just say about scum wanting to claim last? That aside, I am really against mass-claiming at this point. Everything else aside, we are only one weekend away from the deadline, so a proper discussion of the mass claim results won't be possible. It will only benefit town in that they get more information for their NK.
All of this post just feels so so scummy that I am more than happy with where my vote lies at the moment.
PPE: 3
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For clarity, let me emphasize this again: I am against mass-claiming today.
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Also, I will not claim today, not even at EFHW's request.
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I've hesitated to bring this up, but I think I should. I have my own regeneration power. This makes me think that pps's claim may not be true, since the combination would make me virtually unkillable. The fact that he got a lot of the details right, though, means he definitely has knowledge of the regeneration power. If we have a vig (Walrus), SK or a second scum team, then scum of any kind could be given the regeneration power, I suppose. I'm not voting now and I don't want any sheeping! I do want to hear reactions.
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well, I believe the IC. I tend to not trust PPS as much, especially since the only thing that was really stopping me from voting him was his claim. EFHW, is your regenerative power similar to what PPS described that he (allegedly) has for you where you get it back every night? Or is it more of a one-shot bulletproof?
Also, if Ash enables everyone with regeneration, I could easily see him being scum enabling a bunch of town PRs. But if that is the case I don't really want to lynch Ash yet. Maybe like D4 or something.
This also makes PPS look a lot like scum trying to get a walrus mislynch. I will quote xeiron quoting PPS because xeiron really brought this to my attention the best
Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
Although PPS somehow makes this think Joth is scum(?) the real conclusion to what PPS says is that Walrus is scum. I could also believe regeneration/enablers for both scum and town separately. I don't know. But what I do know is that even if PPS is telling the truth (somewhat?) about his claim (the point that it is such a new and interesting role that he couldn't make it up comes to mind- I forget who mentioned it) I think it comes from scum now that EFHW has made his little regeneration claim. Because that would be super OP for both of them to be town.
yeah, vote: PPS
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I have to say that if EFHW is also regenerating, that does weaken pps' claim somewhat in my mind, although it's not out of the question. Maybe scum shot EFHW, realized it didn't stick, so now pps is trying to play it off as something he did to protect her!
It also does lend plausibility to the multiple bullets theory, for how else is scum supposed to kill regenerating targets without multiple bullets and/or time travel? I guess they could shoot through the enabler/protectors first, but still...multiple factions, bullets, etc. would definitely be appropriate I think.
faust, yes, I am definitely enabled. If you can't believe I didn't notice that from the beginning, well, neither can I.
My new feelings about ashersky have turned this game on its head for me. I was feeling a yuma lynch, but his last few posts have come off as relatively genuine to me, and a quick reskim suggests to me that maybe a xeiron or Jimmmmm lynch could be pretty good. I'll try to be more thorough than that though before I revote.
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Okay well I'm kind of caught up on Today's posts. I'm extremely confused, but I'll say what thoughts I do have.
nkirbit's thoughts on Walrus read Towny to me. Unlike others, he analysed actual in-thread evidence rather than trying to guess scum kills and other night actions. What we know on that is pretty simple - sudgy targeted Walrus and died. No one else died. Scum could have killed sudgy, or they could have killed on a different Night. This casts suspicion on Walrus, but in-thread interactions should also be considered.
Not sure what to make of joth vs yuma. I don't understand pps's claim, although I'm pretty sure "the Doctor" or "the doctor" means EFHW.
e read scummy to me, although I can't remember why. Will have to revisit that.
You are missing part of the evidence. What we know:
-Sudgy targeted Walrus and died.
-Scum targeted EFHW, who was protected by pingpongsam. (According to pingpongsam)
-No one else died.
Because this is actually a pretty cut and dry case against Walrus. Xeiron makes really good points here, but it is based solely on PPS and his claim. There is the sudgy targeted the doctor, but I am much more inclined to believe scum targeted sudgy, and scum are trying to get a Walrus mislynch. (not necessarily xeiron anymore, he was just following the logic behind PPS's claim)
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Vote Count 2.9
jotheonah (1): pingpongsam
Walrus (2): ashersky, xeiron
yuma (1): faust
xeiron (2): yuma, nkirbit
pingpongsam (1): 2.71828.....
Not voting (4): EFHW, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, Walrus
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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If PPS is telling the truth, it takes three shots on a single night to kill EFHW. That's possible with multiball and time-travel.. but damn. That's a strong IC.
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Vote: PPS
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well, I believe the IC. I tend to not trust PPS as much, especially since the only thing that was really stopping me from voting him was his claim. EFHW, is your regenerative power similar to what PPS described that he (allegedly) has for you where you get it back every night? Or is it more of a one-shot bulletproof?
It's pretty much the same as he described. It can be used once every night.
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well, I believe the IC. I tend to not trust PPS as much, especially since the only thing that was really stopping me from voting him was his claim. EFHW, is your regenerative power similar to what PPS described that he (allegedly) has for you where you get it back every night? Or is it more of a one-shot bulletproof?
It's pretty much the same as he described. It can be used once every night.
And it's listed as a passive ability, like he said his was.
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It's certainly possible that there's a scum role that's a "regeneration stopper", somehow, and that's how they would know about regeneration. Or they have it themselves to protect from a vigilante or potential other scum.
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so just how many townies are now claiming bulletproof? EFHW, could your regen power be the same one pps claimed, just worded different;y?
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Well, I tried to subtly ask EFHW if there were other aspects to her role. And by that I secretly meant, "do you time travel". The one thing I have not revealed about my role (although it is clear from the flavor name) is that I move through time involuntarily with "the doctor". It was primarily for this reason that i remain uncertain if "the doctor" is EFHW or another power role. I gathered from it that we had a time traveling doctor PR which would is highly unlikely to also be the IC.
FYI, I don't even know what nights I exist in I just know that I travel with the doctor.
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I had kept the time travel bit to myself because I did not want to out our best PR. If it's EFHW then I apologize but I have felt from D1 that it isn't. The assumption that "the doctor" is EFHW seemed a safe one to let everyone make until EFHW revealed that she doesn't actually need my protection whereas our time traveling doctor actually does. Also, her revelation removed my own uncertainty about my role.
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I had kept the time travel bit to myself because I did not want to out our best PR. If it's EFHW then I apologize but I have felt from D1 that it isn't. The assumption that "the doctor" is EFHW seemed a safe one to let everyone make until EFHW revealed that she doesn't actually need my protection whereas our time traveling doctor actually does. Also, her revelation removed my own uncertainty about my role.
So you are saying you protect a doctor, but not EFHW?
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I had kept the time travel bit to myself because I did not want to out our best PR. If it's EFHW then I apologize but I have felt from D1 that it isn't. The assumption that "the doctor" is EFHW seemed a safe one to let everyone make until EFHW revealed that she doesn't actually need my protection whereas our time traveling doctor actually does. Also, her revelation removed my own uncertainty about my role.
So you are saying you protect a doctor, but not EFHW?
Basically back to your "I protected sudgy, but he died anyway so Walrus must be scum"
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I had kept the time travel bit to myself because I did not want to out our best PR. If it's EFHW then I apologize but I have felt from D1 that it isn't. The assumption that "the doctor" is EFHW seemed a safe one to let everyone make until EFHW revealed that she doesn't actually need my protection whereas our time traveling doctor actually does. Also, her revelation removed my own uncertainty about my role.
So you are saying you protect a doctor, but not EFHW?
Basically back to your "I protected sudgy, but he died anyway so Walrus must be scum"
No, you are putting words into my mouth. If you go back and reread immediately prior to my claim and within my claim I make a point to avoid implicating walrus because there are too many possibilities. I also made a point of avoiding any certainty about who I protect because I literally do not know. Everyone else decided to assume it was EFHW. I didn't argue the assumption because if it weren't the case then it was an additional layer of protection for the real time-traveling doctor. Additionally, since I didn't know for sure I couldn't exactly argue the assumption.
That said, I haven't looked at the sudgy flip or my night information as a source of scumhunting information precisely because it is fraught with potential for error. In fact, I have been looking at who is pushing my lynch because I am the obvious mislynch coming out of D2. You, know dufus old Archetype scum-partner who got caught trying to protect him from lynch all D1. A select few people have questioned my D1 stance which is perfectly legitimate but coupled with the continued reaction to my claims which don't implicate anyone at all as if they were meant to I start seeing scum come out of the mix.
And that said, I still hold to my vote on Jotheonah because his reaction claim was extremely scummy and I am flabbergasted that it is not patently obvious.
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I had kept the time travel bit to myself because I did not want to out our best PR. If it's EFHW then I apologize but I have felt from D1 that it isn't. The assumption that "the doctor" is EFHW seemed a safe one to let everyone make until EFHW revealed that she doesn't actually need my protection whereas our time traveling doctor actually does. Also, her revelation removed my own uncertainty about my role.
So you are saying you protect a doctor, but not EFHW?
Basically back to your "I protected sudgy, but he died anyway so Walrus must be scum"
In case it is not clear. I never said this and I dare you to quote where I did. In fact, I have consistently maintained that I do not know who I protect. I never said I protect EFHW or anyone else specifically. I suggested it is possible I protect everyone with doctor in their name/title. Additionally, I have not once stated that walrus must be scum. I have stated that my night information supports the possibility but that it also supports many other possibilities and thus, no conclusions should be drawn about walrus or sudgy at this time.
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vote:pingpongsam
the evidence is mounting. and this is panicked scum posting.
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No, it's a vicious rewriting of the past by a scum team of Jo and e.
Substantiate e's allegations....
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Well, I tried to subtly ask EFHW if there were other aspects to her role. And by that I secretly meant, "do you time travel". The one thing I have not revealed about my role (although it is clear from the flavor name) is that I move through time involuntarily with "the doctor". It was primarily for this reason that i remain uncertain if "the doctor" is EFHW or another power role. I gathered from it that we had a time traveling doctor PR which would is highly unlikely to also be the IC.
FYI, I don't even know what nights I exist in I just know that I travel with the doctor.
Vote: pps. Wasn't it you who was unsure earlier whether you maybe protect sudgy? Well, sudgy doesn't time travel. So you could have known.
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Here's the quote:
Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
PPS also says that maybe his power applies to all doctors in the game, which conflicts his claim that he travels with the doctor.
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Sigh, whatever. It was a Town ploy of redirecting scum away from the time traveling doctor. I knew it would fail when/if EFHW got canned which, judging by the regen thing, probably wouldn't have happened but at that point sufficient time should have passed for Town to secure the win.
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I believe that is 4 on PPS now. L-2. I will unvote if I am here and we get to L-1 before everyone has had a chance to see what EFHW said and can get their reaction out there.
I do want to hear reactions.
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Sigh, whatever. It was a Town ploy of redirecting scum away from the time traveling doctor. I knew it would fail when/if EFHW got canned which, judging by the regen thing, probably wouldn't have happened but at that point sufficient time should have passed for Town to secure the win.
say what? you are lying town now?
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PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.
PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.
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Sigh, whatever. It was a Town ploy of redirecting scum away from the time traveling doctor. I knew it would fail when/if EFHW got canned which, judging by the regen thing, probably wouldn't have happened but at that point sufficient time should have passed for Town to secure the win.
say what? you are lying town now?
I never lied. That was the ploy. Paint how you like, scum. You can't substantiate a lie anywhere. It was ambiguous for me so I kept it ambiguous for everyone. Please show me the spot where I specified EFHW as the beneficiary of my protection. Everyone else made that assumption for themselves. Me not arguing it was the ploy which incidentally is not a lie.
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Sigh, whatever. It was a Town ploy of redirecting scum away from the time traveling doctor. I knew it would fail when/if EFHW got canned which, judging by the regen thing, probably wouldn't have happened but at that point sufficient time should have passed for Town to secure the win.
say what? you are lying town now?
I never lied. That was the ploy. Paint how you like, scum. You can't substantiate a lie anywhere. It was ambiguous for me so I kept it ambiguous for everyone. Please show me the spot where I specified EFHW as the beneficiary of my protection. Everyone else made that assumption for themselves. Me not arguing it was the ploy which incidentally is not a lie.
So you are saying the ploy is entirely about WHO you protect, not the protection itself. That was unclear to me. No, you did not lie about that but kept it ambiguous as you just said
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Sigh, whatever. It was a Town ploy of redirecting scum away from the time traveling doctor. I knew it would fail when/if EFHW got canned which, judging by the regen thing, probably wouldn't have happened but at that point sufficient time should have passed for Town to secure the win.
say what? you are lying town now?
I never lied. That was the ploy. Paint how you like, scum. You can't substantiate a lie anywhere. It was ambiguous for me so I kept it ambiguous for everyone. Please show me the spot where I specified EFHW as the beneficiary of my protection. Everyone else made that assumption for themselves. Me not arguing it was the ploy which incidentally is not a lie.
Man, you specified sudgy as the beneficiary of your protection. And that's just not possible, given what you've told us. So yes, you lied.
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Sigh, whatever. It was a Town ploy of redirecting scum away from the time traveling doctor. I knew it would fail when/if EFHW got canned which, judging by the regen thing, probably wouldn't have happened but at that point sufficient time should have passed for Town to secure the win.
say what? you are lying town now?
I never lied. That was the ploy. Paint how you like, scum. You can't substantiate a lie anywhere. It was ambiguous for me so I kept it ambiguous for everyone. Please show me the spot where I specified EFHW as the beneficiary of my protection. Everyone else made that assumption for themselves. Me not arguing it was the ploy which incidentally is not a lie.
Man, you specified sudgy as the beneficiary of your protection. And that's just not possible, given what you've told us. So yes, you lied.
Where?! I only stated that it was possible I protected him because he had doctor as a role. Show me the post where I specified the beneficiary of my protection with zero ambiguity.
I'm have to leave to go eat dinner.
I'll see you guys on my flipside, I still think scum had to show themselves to get this lynch so it's fine by me.
My only concern is that someone attempted to kill the doctor last night but now they know I stopped it. When I'm lynched out of the way the doctor is toast.
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Unvote
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I'll go over this in more detail tonight. I'm just skimming at the moment, and while I see why PPS has pressure on him (and deservedly so), I'm not entirely sure that his actions fit a scum narrative. Maybe they will do so upon further re-reading.
I'm not just sure that it makes sense for scum to go about his claiming the way he did.. I want more time to re-read him carefully and figure out if it does or not.
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EFHW or chairs - do you have any particular re-reads etc that you think it would be good for me to do to get myself back into the game?
walrus, xeiron, 2.7, but i'm quoting this from pages back.
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All right, I can't help myself, I'm going to claim some more. I'm a claiming addict!
I have traveled forward in time to N2 to vig pingpongsam. So yes, pps, you are, ahem, marked for death. *shuffles feet awkwardly*
As I said, I did a thorough reread before I made this decision. It's not easy, you know, holding the fates of men in the balance. But I thought pps was my best choice. I'm glad to see it's a choice that has some consensus at least as well...maybe we can nail scum, or at least learn something interesting.
Why reveal this now, you ask. Well, because it looks like he may have been headed towards being lynched anyway, in which case it's probably better for it to be on the table perhaps. My thinking was that if I missed and hit town, at least if it were a secret, maybe scum would shoot him too, and that would be a wasted bullet anyway. But if he's getting close to a lynch then none of that matters. It's possible that scum could still mess with this in some way, but with a bus driver down I'm hoping it's nothing too severe.
I don't know if this makes you want to lynch pps more, less, or whatever. You could lynch him anyway to nullify my vigginess. If you wanted to see him dead, you probably can just wait until tonight haha. The other thing about this is that night deaths have rather less permanency than day deaths do, so if he does end up flipping town, then maybe we can bring him back somehow. But day deaths are a done deal.
Another thing I just thought of is that if pps does time travel with EFHW, that could be weird...maybe I'll miss if he's not around? Hmmmm.
I know the clock is running a little low too, which is part of the reason I wanted to get this out now. I will be doing rereads and will get a vote down by tonight.
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unvote
I will let this play out
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So I'll reread pps to see how his actions fit with his claim.
#91 he defends ashersky's claim. That could mean that he is enabled and therefore knows he's telling the truth, but also scum knowing that ash is town trying to gain towncred.
#188 turnaround (after EFHW voiced suspicion against ash!); now calls ash "a decent lynch". Why would an enabled role do that?
#264 still suspicious of ash. Why?
#366 mentions "roleblocking, bus driving and redirection" as possible scum powers. This makes it ever so slightly more likely that he is Archetype's partner.
#565 predicts that Archetype will flip scum.
#688 wishes for a Watcher who watched sudgy to come forward. This of course fits with him claiming that sudgy might have been protected by him. It could also point to scum having tried to mess with such results. Says he has information that a NK was prevented. At this point, if he is scum, he has probably prepared his fake claim.
#748 says his role is Voltaire crafted and that he is not yet willing to claim.
#793 again states that he doesn't want to claim yet.
#796 says he knows that a kill attempt failed "on a specific town PR". But he doesn't know the town PR for sure, right? Could be a real doctor, could be the IC.
#801 the claim. What I think is notable on reread is that he apparently gets notified of an attempted kill. I find this weird - makes him a Watcher variant additionally, and I think his claimed role would work fine as a passive role without notification.
#803/#804 this is interesting. He claims that there is more to his role, which would be what he revealed now. Then he says that if his power fails, he would die. But I don't see how he would die through the time-travelling aspect that he claimed. Doesn't make sense thematically. It may also refer to him being enabled, but then again it wouldn't make sense for him to die.
#811 claims that roleblocking would stop his power, which usually isn't the case with passive powers AFAIK.
#819 states that the role name he claimed is not his actual role name. Again, suspicious. If I claim my role name, I make sure to claim it exactly as written in my PM.
#887 claims being enabled and says this is a "full claim". This at least is a straight up lie.
#899 claims he "didn't quite get" that he was enabled until ashersky claimed.
Yes. PPS is lying and should be lynched. I do not think I will be persuaded on another lynch today.
PPE: Walrus. Oh my. Need to re-evaluate.
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Okay. So. Mod question:
If someone (i.e. Walrus) targets a player N2 and that same player is removed from the game via a lynch D2, does Walrus still count as targeting this player N2? That means, more specifically: Can Walrus travel to N2 again or can't he?
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with all this bulletproofness floating around, I feel better about the lynch.
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Walrus, why did you choose to vig someone after D1? General consensus among most players here seems to be "vigs shouldn't shoot N1", which is basically what you did. You had an especially low chance of hitting scum we already lynched one scum D1. Why the decision to shoot then?
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#887 claims being enabled and says this is a "full claim". This at least is a straight up lie.
Fair enough. I did knowingly and willingly provide false information at this point. I could have left it out there that I had yet to fully claim everything which would have prompted immediate pressure for the full claim which I had hoped to avoid because the time traveling aspect of the doctor I feel needed to remain at least uncertain. Kudos to EFHW for not answering my subtle request because the information as to who is the time traveling doctor still remains uncertain. That was probably poor play on my part trying to ascertain for my own curiosity who I protected without having to reveal it to everyone. To that end I believed EFHW was never really my beneficiary and with her revelation about her regenerative ability I'm now certain of it so I think I did the right thing here.
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Well, I tried to subtly ask EFHW if there were other aspects to her role. And by that I secretly meant, "do you time travel". The one thing I have not revealed about my role (although it is clear from the flavor name) is that I move through time involuntarily with "the doctor". It was primarily for this reason that i remain uncertain if "the doctor" is EFHW or another power role. I gathered from it that we had a time traveling doctor PR which would is highly unlikely to also be the IC.
FYI, I don't even know what nights I exist in I just know that I travel with the doctor.
Vote: pps. Wasn't it you who was unsure earlier whether you maybe protect sudgy? Well, sudgy doesn't time travel. So you could have known.
This is a good point, since PPS is saying he time-travels with the person he is protecting. His story contradicts itself.
-- Leaving "doctor" ambiguous would be a good way to muddy waters without actually lying.
-- If pps is scum, he or his partners might have a way to stop Walrus's vig, now that they know who the target is and what night it was done. If we are convinced he is scum, then the safest thing is to lynch him today, even though it means wasting Walrus's vig. The info we would get from his flip would help us make a better lynch choice tomorrow, as opposed to lynching someone else now without the information. pps, if you are town, remember I said "DO NOT LIE AS TOWN"? This is why.
-- Walrus, time traveling doesn't protect you from being targeted by night actions in the present. faust, I'm also 99% sure he wouldn't be allowed to take actions in N2 again.
-- No more claims please! We have enough to go on for today.
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with all this bulletproofness floating around, I feel better about the lynch.
what's the connection?
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
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that's what I'm saying. I have no confidence the vig shot will kill pps, so I'd rather lynch him.
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that's what I'm saying. I have no confidence the vig shot will kill pps, so I'd rather lynch him.
Because you can't kill me at night and you can't rid me of the power because ashersky is your scum partner?
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Again something you didn't deem necessary to tell us up until now.
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
like I said, time travel doesn't protect you from other people's night actions.
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Walrus, why did you choose to vig someone after D1? General consensus among most players here seems to be "vigs shouldn't shoot N1", which is basically what you did. You had an especially low chance of hitting scum we already lynched one scum D1. Why the decision to shoot then?
Well, to be honest, the answer is 90% because I'd never been a vig before and I wanted to shoot somebody. Vigs gonna vig.
I thought whether vigs should shoot N1 was a matter of open debate. And it's N2, it doesn't count lol! Certainly the mafiascum article, which I consulted, says that it's "debatable". So I went with the more interesting option.
I also thought it would be better to get some kills in earlier to give more information more quickly to town, and save my roleblocks until later when I could have a better chance of connecting. Especially in this game the early kills have a possibility of being undone, while the day kills are immutable.
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Why did you say that it was possible you protected sudgy?
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Again something you didn't deem necessary to tell us up until now.
Right. I didn't withhold so much as leave it unsaid. I thought it kind of obvious to itself. It was pertinent at this point because it's informative to Town. You want me to flip for information purposes and I'd hate you to waste this mislynch on someone less informative when you won't get the information from the vig. You're obviously not going to kill scum today.
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Why did you say that it was possible you protected sudgy?
Because, at that point in the day I was still trying to sort out what happened. I'm not omnipotent, here. I mean we have people who just now figured out they were enabled. When sudgy flipped doctor I thought it pertinent without considering the time travel angle. When everyone assumed I protected you I thought maybe it best to let that sleeping dog lie. It was just early day oversight.
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Again something you didn't deem necessary to tell us up until now.
Right. I didn't withhold so much as leave it unsaid. I thought it kind of obvious to itself. It was pertinent at this point because it's informative to Town. You want me to flip for information purposes and I'd hate you to waste this mislynch on someone less informative when you won't get the information from the vig. You're obviously not going to kill scum today.
Like, it's not. If you were indeed town, your notification that your power has been used could come from the fact that scum targeted you, not "the doctor". But you never ever took that into account.
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No, my notification came from protecting the doctor. I don't know if I'm notified of being targeted myself. The role description never said anything about notifications to begin with, I just got one after N1.
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Why did you say that it was possible you protected sudgy?
letting that sleeping dog lie also meant the Walrus question was more muddled. Now you don't think you could have protected sudgy?
Because, at that point in the day I was still trying to sort out what happened. I'm not omnipotent, here. I mean we have people who just now figured out they were enabled. When sudgy flipped doctor I thought it pertinent without considering the time travel angle. When everyone assumed I protected you I thought maybe it best to let that sleeping dog lie. It was just early day oversight.
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Why did you say that it was possible you protected sudgy?
Because, at that point in the day I was still trying to sort out what happened. I'm not omnipotent, here. I mean we have people who just now figured out they were enabled. When sudgy flipped doctor I thought it pertinent without considering the time travel angle. When everyone assumed I protected you I thought maybe it best to let that sleeping dog lie. It was just early day oversight.
Trying again: letting that sleeping dog lie also meant the Walrus question was more muddled. Now you don't think you could have protected sudgy?
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Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Why did you say that it was possible you protected sudgy?
letting that sleeping dog lie also meant the Walrus question was more muddled. Now you don't think you could have protected sudgy?
Because, at that point in the day I was still trying to sort out what happened. I'm not omnipotent, here. I mean we have people who just now figured out they were enabled. When sudgy flipped doctor I thought it pertinent without considering the time travel angle. When everyone assumed I protected you I thought maybe it best to let that sleeping dog lie. It was just early day oversight.
I think there is a strong possibility that I did not protect sudgy. But I can't know. For example, let's say hypothetically, on any given night I protect every single person who has doctor in their name or title and on N1 "the doctor" I travel with stayed in N1. Likely? Probably not. Possible? well, maybe with the information I have to work with. I am not omnipotent of how my role relates to others'. Leveraging my ignorance as proof I am scum is ignoring basic setup parameters of RMM games. Ignoring that this is the technique being used against me is playing right into scum's hands.
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Note I have explicitly refrained from implicating walrus in any way. To me, he's off the lynch table for today, there is no conclusion I can draw. I haven't ever even considered him a lynch proposition today because I knew that when Archetype flipped scum I was the easy scum target for today once the initial drama over walrus settled. My lynch propositions were going to be within the scope of who leveraged that easy lynch. I think you will find me quite consistent in this regard.
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The fact that pps is claiming he wouldn't die from my vig so assertively makes me kind of suspicious.
My plausibility is getting stretched pretty thin. Regeneration for the doctor, that I can believe, and in fact I kind of expected based on my own regeneration. A personal shield for the doctor, eh, well that's a pretty tough nut to crack, but not impossible. But a regenerating personal shield for a regenerating doctor? That's pushing it for me.
It might be more likely that he is a powerful scum or 3rd party role with regeneration, or some other means of staying alive, and now is tacking things on to his claim as convenient. He did say the time travel thing was the last thing he had to reveal, and now he's got this up his sleeve too. I mean I do think it is pretty likely that some scummy supervillain also has regeneration; that only seems fair, and also makes ash's role more interesting.
So this makes me support the pps lynch more. I did shoot him after all, that's usually pretty strong support for killing someone!
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The fact that pps is claiming he wouldn't die from my vig so assertively makes me kind of suspicious.
My plausibility is getting stretched pretty thin. Regeneration for the doctor, that I can believe, and in fact I kind of expected based on my own regeneration. A personal shield for the doctor, eh, well that's a pretty tough nut to crack, but not impossible. But a regenerating personal shield for a regenerating doctor? That's pushing it for me.
It might be more likely that he is a powerful scum or 3rd party role with regeneration, or some other means of staying alive, and now is tacking things on to his claim as convenient. He did say the time travel thing was the last thing he had to reveal, and now he's got this up his sleeve too. I mean I do think it is pretty likely that some scummy supervillain also has regeneration; that only seems fair, and also makes ash's role more interesting.
So this makes me support the pps lynch more. I did shoot him after all, that's usually pretty strong support for killing someone!
Fair assessment but I would say I didn't wait to reveal information. I felt it was evident, especially considering how many people seem to have similar ability. Also, I can't say for certain it protects me but it sure reads like it should. I waited to emphasize the information because it became pertinent when town was considering letting your vig get them information. If Town really wants information from my flip it probably needs to come in the form of a lynch. Thus it was appropriate to emphasize that information at that point.
The notion that a town claim should be 100% with zero reservations to protect Town is absurd.
Finally, I think it is faulty assumption that my regenerating protection applies to a role that already has regen. I was already wary of the assumption I protected EFHW. I never promoted the idea. I never supported the idea. I thought it best to let the idea run free on it's opwn because it seemed pro-town if EFHW was not the beneficiary. Her revealing that she had regen herself pretty much killed the theory I never started or promoted as far as I was concerned.
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I have a meeting I have to attend very shortly. I'll be back in roughly 2 hours.
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I will reveal that I know in a most interesting proxy way that a kill attempt failed on a specific Town PR last night. I'd like to see Jo's claim before I reveal anything further. If, as I beleive, Jo was responsible for the attempt then he needs to be lynched to protect the identity of the Town PR.
This post makes it look like PPS knew for certain that the doctor is not referring to Sudgy. If it was.. why do we care about Sudgy's identity? Everyone already knows it, he turned up dead!
Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
In his very next post, he claims, and appears to think that Sudgy is the doctor. Or at least is unsure about it.
Nothing about his claim would have outed "The Doctor" (assuming that it is neither EFHW nor Sudgy) without stepping forward.
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Without the doctor stepping forward, I mean. PPS claims to be unsure who 'the doctor' really is.
And man, "the doctor", if PPS is telling the truth, just has to be EFHW, right? I mean, how many doctors are there?
Leaning towards PPS lying at this point.
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It's "one-shot" for the night. The role description doesn't actually use the terminology "one-shot". There is a short description that states I protect the doctor from the first kill attempt against him each night. The actual power is called "Regenerating Protector".
Certainly fishy.. accidentally putting "one-shot" into your role. I guess this is something that it's possible for town to do.. but looking at the role he's describing and connecting it with "one-shot" in his mind is certainly odd. You wouldn't describe a cop as "one-shot every night".. and it's certainly odd for PPS to describe his role in that way.
Nice catch, I hadn't picked up on that before. My description makes it clear the power is enabled which I didn't quite get until ashersky claimed.
Well, I do think this is scummy. Very, very, very, very scummy. You knew you were enabled, but didn't at all pause when Ash claimed enabler initially? Despite apparently collecting your thoughts since day one? Really?
Man, this reaction sounds like scum who fake-claimed enabled because he knew there was an enabler in the game much much more than an enabled role who knew they were enabled yet didn't at all blink when Ashersky claimed initially.
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Definitely of the view now that PPS is scum. Faust brought up a lot of the same points as I did, and I agree with most of his, plus what I've said in the past view votes.
We should lynch PPS regardless of Walrus's outgoing vig. First of all, we cannot be 100% sure that Walrus is not lying. I don't think he is, but it's not out of the question.
Secondly, it's quite possible that Scum have regenerating powers, or time traveling roleblockers, or something else to stop a kill they know about. I would be surprised if they didn't.
I think that the PPS lynch is by far the best option here. There's too much that just isn't adding up.
Vote: Pingpongsam
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Nice catch, I hadn't picked up on that before. My description makes it clear the power is enabled which I didn't quite get until ashersky claimed.
Well, I do think this is scummy. Very, very, very, very scummy. You knew you were enabled, but didn't at all pause when Ash claimed enabler initially? Despite apparently collecting your thoughts since day one? Really?
Man, this reaction sounds like scum who fake-claimed enabled because he knew there was an enabler in the game much much more than an enabled role who knew they were enabled yet didn't at all blink when Ashersky claimed initially.
Not following this thing at all. All I was saying here was on D1 when ashersky claimed enabler was the moment I understood the bit in my role description about being enabled. Up until that point I just rolled right past it. When he claimed then I understood that my ability relied on an enabler, be it him or some else. It was simply a moment of clarity about the concept of enabling which was new to me.
Can you clarify to me what exactly is scummy about that? I'm not arguing the point, I'm saying I genuinely am not grasping what about it is scummy.
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I am sick, again--this has been like the month where all illness caught up to me. I hadn't been sick all year and now three times in a month! Anyone want to briefly recap in short and simple terms what in the world is going on. I have kinda followed via e-mail notifications and really the only thing I got out of it was 1. confusion and 2. something that nkirbit said:
I'll go over this in more detail tonight. I'm just skimming at the moment, and while I see why PPS has pressure on him (and deservedly so), I'm not entirely sure that his actions fit a scum narrative. Maybe they will do so upon further re-reading.
I'm not just sure that it makes sense for scum to go about his claiming the way he did.. I want more time to re-read him carefully and figure out if it does or not.
From everything that I have seen is that for PPS there needs to be a reason for him to 1. claim and 2. claim what he has (which is really what I need help understanding with my foggy brain state). If we can't get beyond that then we need to remember that this is a RMM game where not everything is as it seems.
I'll respond to some more posts specifically...
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I have not pushed Walrus. I have not pushed you since the start of the Day. Really, your case is based on lies. And what's more, is pushing for a lynch scummy now? I guess you would rather no-lynch again, right?
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So it's suspicious now not to have claimed? You know who the players that claimed are? Exactly those who have come under suspicion so far (and ashersky). Scum will claim when under suspicion, even more likely so than town. Now you're arguing that those who have claimed deserve town points, that's just false logic - they wouldn't have claimed if they hadn't seen the need to. Ashersky is really the only one who claimed without being suspected (and sudgy/chairs, but well, they're "dead" anyway).
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What points against you mainly is POE. You advocating no-lynch is just the icing on the cake.
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You did you just say about scum wanting to claim last? That aside, I am really against mass-claiming at this point. Everything else aside, we are only one weekend away from the deadline, so a proper discussion of the mass claim results won't be possible. It will only benefit town in that they get more information for their NK.
All of this post just feels so so scummy that I am more than happy with where my vote lies at the moment.
paragraph 1: you will note that in this paragraph I am referring to xeiron as well as you and talking about you as a group or even more so I am talking about what I believe scum would do, so no you havne't done everything that I listed here, but xeiron has, joth has and to an extent you have as well... hence my vote on xeiron and joth and not you. But just because I am not voting for you doesn't mean I can't find you a wee bit suspicious.
paragraph 2: again look at Modern Community. Players who claimed there were also those who came under suspicion. Not exclusively, but in part certainly. and the players who have come under suspicion have claimed prematurely all except for Walrus I believe.... Claiming prematurely is often bad, but isn't always scummy.
paragraph 3: Well then you POE is crappy because you are completely excluding anyone on the archetype wagon which is just plain dumb.
paragraph 4: now you are just being obtuse. Obviously if you read the paragraph with an unbiased mind, what I am saying is that I am willing to claim whenever, but because I know that I am town I would prefer that if we do a mass claim to have those that I suspect go before me because it will be easier for me to catch them in a lie. If I go first and claim redacted then if xeiron or whomever is scum it will be easier for them to come up with a fake claim...
I don't know if you are town or not, but if you are approaching this game with this mindset is extremely poor and is doing nothing to help town in anyway.
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also policy vote: faust
Also, I will not claim today, not even at EFHW's request.
refusing to ever (even at the request of the IC) claim isn't helping anyone but yourself
and policy vote: jimmmm
EFHW or chairs - do you have any particular re-reads etc that you think it would be good for me to do to get myself back into the game?
maybe you should read the thread on your own and then figure out who you should reread... you know... on your own...
but really back to vote: xeiron until I get a better understanding of what is going on with pps.
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Nice catch, I hadn't picked up on that before. My description makes it clear the power is enabled which I didn't quite get until ashersky claimed.
Well, I do think this is scummy. Very, very, very, very scummy. You knew you were enabled, but didn't at all pause when Ash claimed enabler initially? Despite apparently collecting your thoughts since day one? Really?
Man, this reaction sounds like scum who fake-claimed enabled because he knew there was an enabler in the game much much more than an enabled role who knew they were enabled yet didn't at all blink when Ashersky claimed initially.
Not following this thing at all. All I was saying here was on D1 when ashersky claimed enabler was the moment I understood the bit in my role description about being enabled. Up until that point I just rolled right past it. When he claimed then I understood that my ability relied on an enabler, be it him or some else. It was simply a moment of clarity about the concept of enabling which was new to me.
Can you clarify to me what exactly is scummy about that? I'm not arguing the point, I'm saying I genuinely am not grasping what about it is scummy.
I guess I didn't explain that terribly well. What I was saying was that you were enabled, and had seen Ash post something like "I don't think the enabled players know that they're enabled"... and yet that statement from Ash didn't raise any alarm bells for you at all. You didn't notice the discrepancy between what Ash had stated and your own knowledge of the fact that you were enabled despite claiming to have mulled over Ash's claim a great deal.
Now, I get that it's not impossible to miss something like that. I just don't think it's very likely for an enabled role to have missed that. When you claimed, I picked up on it fairly quickly despite Ash's statement being a week old, and not being enabled myself... and yet you missed it for a week straight. It's just fishy, is all. When I'm looking at the two options:
A: PPS is telling the truth, is enabled, and simply missed the contradiction between Ash's claim and his own
vs
B: PPS is lying, and hadn't noticed the connection because he actually isn't an enabler, and hadn't spent much time thinking about Ash's claim
I lean towards B. It's just what I think is more likely.
Yuma is correct, though. We haven't yet figured out a narrative for you that makes sense as scum. If you're really scum, why did you act the way you did... I'm not sure. I'm a little bit worried that it's similar to Eevee in LOTR2, where a lot of pieces just don't add up, but there's no scum narrative.. it's just town missing things, or changing their mind, or not claiming as well as they should have, or any number of things.
unvote. This is hard. There are a lot of things you did that are scummy.. but we don't have a big picture. It may be that you're still the best option even without that big picture.. but ugh. I keep going back and forth.
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Ok, just arrived back home from vacation. (Aside for Jimmmmm: seems we were staying at the same hotel as the Melbourne Heart, if you follow A League.)
Lots of posting overnight, which is nice.
First impressions: PPS is caught and scrambling. Walrus is still the most likely reason for sudgy's death. The N2 vig claim from Walrus sounds like a half-hearted attempt to save a partner. Lurkers are lame. Yuma vs. Faust seems town vs. town.
When is the deadline? I think walrus/PPS are our best lynch options, then Xeiron or Jimmmm.
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deadline Monday at noon. Again, I won't be around much Monday morning. It would be good to try to resolve this tomorrow night.
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I'm back towards thinking PPS is town. I know I'm all over the place with this one. There is a decent amount of evidence, but it just isn't adding up for me. There are too many unanswered questions that just don't make sense if PPS is scum.
(1): Why did he claim in the first place? He was under a little bit of pressure, and it was starting to pick up.. but I don't think he was close to getting lynched. His initial claim reads to me like excited town who wants to hammer scum, and didn't 100% think through the claim.
Regardless of his alignment, the goal of his claim (#801) was to slam the door on Jotheonah by implicating him in the Sudgy NK. The only problem is.. his post didn't actually do that. The logic just wasn't sound... nothing he brought forward implicated Jotheonah at all.
Now, is that more likely to come from town or from scum? I think it's town. I think a town player is more likely to get excited that they caught scum and spill the beans than a scum player is to make a fake claim that didn't work. Scum are just more careful.. they check that it makes sense for them to make the claim if they're town, and that the claim actually has a purpose.
If there's one thing that I've learned from playing mafia here, it's that the claims that don't make sense usually come from town. I've seen it time and time again. Eevee hiding behind the player he listed as his top scum read in LOTR2... Mcmc not really being able to explain why he JKed who he did in mean girls. Xeiron stumbling through his claim day1 of Shakespeare. The perfect claims usually come from scum, because they make sure that they're clean, and they won't get questioned. I think the form of PPS's claim much more closely matches that of town claims than scum claims I've seen.
(2). If PPS is scum, why did he claim enabled when he did? This is one that just doesn't make any sense for me. Town PPS has an easy answer.. because he was an enabled. Fair enough.
But scum PPS..? Nothing he brought forward in his claim really added anything.. it just lowered his credibility by splitting his claim into two parts. He tried to put suspicion on Ashersky, but he didn't really have anything more than a feeling (nor did he try and say he did). I just don't see what incentive scum!PPS has to claim enabled AFTER he had already claimed.
There is the little bit of PPS not catching Ashersky's enabler thing earlier.. which is suspicious. But EFHW and Walrus didn't see it either (and Walrus also claims to be enabled), so perhaps that's excusable, if not a bit odd.
Sorry, that was a bit scattered.. but here's what I'm thinking now: While a lot of what PPS is saying doesn't add up, and it's unclear why he did exactly what he did, I'm still not seeing a reason for scum to do what he did, at all. If he's scum, he made a series of risky claims (one after the other), rather than getting it all out at once. His last claim makes sense for scum to make (after EFHW's initial allegation).. but his initial two claims were.. just weird and not really accomplishing much. The sort of claim scum wants to avoid, I think. I think that scum tend to want to make claims later in the game with results, not a mismash of information that doesn't really lead us anywhere. I believe that these sorts of claims more often come from town than scum
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PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.
PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.
Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy. No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys. We don't have so many of those.
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PPS: Do you know if/where you traveled to last night with the doctor?
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I see that pingpongsam has claimed some more.
I am suprised at this new information , as his claim seemed so true earlier.
Now my initial recation is that pingpongsam is lying scum after reding troug once.
I will read through once more before I make up my mind.
unvote: from Walrus at the moment.
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also policy vote: faust
Also, I will not claim today, not even at EFHW's request.
refusing to ever (even at the request of the IC) claim isn't helping anyone but yourself
I did not refuse to ever claim. I refused to claim today.
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Not lynching pps at this point may be dangerous because if Walrus is telling the truth, we're risking losing two town players at the hands of town.
Nkirbit's response to the pps issue seems very genuine to me, but I don't agree with it. I think pps claimed early to claim early, because early claims are generally believed more than late claims. He knew he had to do something because he took a very scummy stance on Archetype. He had his Enabled Regenerating Protector claim engineered N1, and thought it would look more like town if he kept the Enabled part secret for some time.
Then after EFHW's relevation, he was caught and since then tried to somehow save himself. My vote remains here.
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PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.
PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.
Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy. No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys. We don't have so many of those.
I get that you want to play a flawless town game. But how often does this happen? Most likely, we will mislynch at some point, and we have to consider what happens if you do. If someone claims a role that says "if you get lynched, town loses", you might think twice about lynching that player, even if you are 90% sure that he is scum. On the other hand, if someone claims VT, that's usually reason for a policy lynch. This is the reasoning I apply here.
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PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.
PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.
Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy. No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys. We don't have so many of those.
I get that you want to play a flawless town game. But how often does this happen? Most likely, we will mislynch at some point, and we have to consider what happens if you do. If someone claims a role that says "if you get lynched, town loses", you might think twice about lynching that player, even if you are 90% sure that he is scum. On the other hand, if someone claims VT, that's usually reason for a policy lynch. This is the reasoning I apply here.
if you are playing like a moron sure... go ahead and policy lynch... and your hypothetical is dumb, no one has ever made a role like that. nkirbit isn't talking about a flawless game... he id talking about winning. mislynches are how mafia wins. people often think that night kills is how they do it and this is false. this looks like a mislynch to me therefore it is in mafia's favor so i am against it and with nkirbit.
xeiron on the other hand and you to an extent appear to just want a lynch and want it to go through and be a mislynch. I am voting for xeiron and there i will stay
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I think pps claimed early to claim early, because early claims are generally believed more than late claims.
are they? look back at recent games and prove this, i don't think you will be able to do so...
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PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.
PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.
Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy. No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys. We don't have so many of those.
I get that you want to play a flawless town game. But how often does this happen? Most likely, we will mislynch at some point, and we have to consider what happens if you do. If someone claims a role that says "if you get lynched, town loses", you might think twice about lynching that player, even if you are 90% sure that he is scum. On the other hand, if someone claims VT, that's usually reason for a policy lynch. This is the reasoning I apply here.
if you are playing like a moron sure... go ahead and policy lynch... and your hypothetical is dumb, no one has ever made a role like that. nkirbit isn't talking about a flawless game... he id talking about winning. mislynches are how mafia wins. people often think that night kills is how they do it and this is false. this looks like a mislynch to me therefore it is in mafia's favor so i am against it and with nkirbit.
xeiron on the other hand and you to an extent appear to just want a lynch and want it to go through and be a mislynch. I am voting for xeiron and there i will stay
That's such a ridiculous misread. All Faust is saying is that town doesn't play perfectly. We're allowed a certain number of mis lynches. And those mislynches are better than no lynches because they're informational.
Your assertion that mafia wins by mislynches, not night kills, is also kind of nonsensical. If that were true the right town play would be to always no lynch. But if town always no lynched they'd have no way to deduce scum and nothing to do once they did.
Nkirbit, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't feel safer with a perfect narrative for PPS. But LAL, man. Lynch All Liars. He's admitted to engaging in a "town ploy" and to letting us believe things he knows aren't true. Plus he's scrambling like a caught fish. Plus his day one behavior re:Archetype. What more do you need? A hat with a giant neon sign on it that says SCUM?
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PPS: Do you know if/where you traveled to last night with the doctor?
No, my role description tells me that I follow the doctor through time, however I have no active abilities so I don't have any means of ascertaining where we went.
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PPS is a great lynch today, I think. He's probably scum caught in a web of lies. If he's scum, he is somehow tied to regeneration, which means he is probably strong scum. If he is town, well his claimed role isn't all that powerful, so mislynching him would be okay.
PPE: Claiming lying town is a measure of last resort. Looks like we caught scum again.
Man, I do think these sorts of posts are really scummy. No, if PPS is town, it's not okay to mislynch him, because we miss a chance at getting the bad guys. We don't have so many of those.
I get that you want to play a flawless town game. But how often does this happen? Most likely, we will mislynch at some point, and we have to consider what happens if you do. If someone claims a role that says "if you get lynched, town loses", you might think twice about lynching that player, even if you are 90% sure that he is scum. On the other hand, if someone claims VT, that's usually reason for a policy lynch. This is the reasoning I apply here.
if you are playing like a moron sure... go ahead and policy lynch... and your hypothetical is dumb, no one has ever made a role like that. nkirbit isn't talking about a flawless game... he id talking about winning. mislynches are how mafia wins. people often think that night kills is how they do it and this is false. this looks like a mislynch to me therefore it is in mafia's favor so i am against it and with nkirbit.
xeiron on the other hand and you to an extent appear to just want a lynch and want it to go through and be a mislynch. I am voting for xeiron and there i will stay
That's such a ridiculous misread. All Faust is saying is that town doesn't play perfectly. We're allowed a certain number of mis lynches. And those mislynches are better than no lynches because they're informational.
Your assertion that mafia wins by mislynches, not night kills, is also kind of nonsensical. If that were true the right town play would be to always no lynch. But if town always no lynched they'd have no way to deduce scum and nothing to do once they did.
Nkirbit, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't feel safer with a perfect narrative for PPS. But LAL, man. Lynch All Liars. He's admitted to engaging in a "town ploy" and to letting us believe things he knows aren't true. Plus he's scrambling like a caught fish. Plus his day one behavior re:Archetype. What more do you need? A hat with a giant neon sign on it that says SCUM?
go back and find all the liars in previous games. see how many are town... i think you will be surprised
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That's such a ridiculous misread.
no it isn't. it is an exaggerated response to a complete misread of nkirbit's post... obviously no one is ab;e to read in this game as we now have nk posting, faust misreadin him, me apparently misreading faust and now you misreading me. i suggest everyone stop using emotions and just think for a moment that someone posting something you don't agree with doesn't mean they are auto-scum--me included
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I think pps claimed early to claim early, because early claims are generally believed more than late claims.
are they? look back at recent games and prove this, i don't think you will be able to do so...
I just have to look at this game and your earlier post that we should lynch amongst the uncalimed to prove this.
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I'm sorry this is so ridiculously long. I thought it would be helpful to see the sequence of pps's claim as it emerged. The links to quotes are his comments on ashersky's claim. I also did not include some of the posts explaining why he claimed that did not also give new information.
I've contemplated the ash claim in light of EFHW's comments and with the additional consideration of ashersky's latest rationalization and I think he's a decent D1 lynch regardless of his alignment unless one of our time traveling power roles is truly enabled by him at which point it's terrible.
Well, I just caught up and well, whew...
So, surely people did things last night. And surely to god, since sudgy said he was going to do something somebody watched him, right? I mean his plan was just as easily a scum ploy if he were alive today. As to watching sudgy, if not, why not and if so, why not tell?
I'm asking in general not to get a possible watcher to out themselves. I just can't think of a solid reason why it played out this way.
That said, I did receive some information last night that suggests an attempt to kill someone failed. That information supports the notion that sudgy died from his weak modifier as opposed to being the one killed unless there are multiple killing abilities occurring at night.
I wondered how you would be able to get such information. Can you expand on this?
Revealing the information at this juncture could be detrimental to Town. I think my information needs to come out when we have a little more certainty on who is not scum-aligned. I don't feel confident drawing any conclusions from night information. There are too many possibilities for last night's results for me to commit to voting based on those results. I will say that it is my specific role that provided me the information. This appears to be a Voltaire crafted role as I don't see anything by that name in the Wiki.
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thinks sudgy died from his weak modifier (implicates Walrus).
I did not intend to implicate Walrus nor was I led me to believe sudgy died from his targeting. I stated that my information supported the notion, that is, it didn't disprove it. Later I stated that my information supports too many possibilities to draw any decisive conclusions. Your interpretation here would be scummy if it weren't for you being IC because I am carefully trying to present my information without giving scum the upper hand here. You turning it into me implicating or taking de facto positions on what happened last night is conflating the facts with an assumed agenda.
Other than that I agree with the rest of the reads.
Also, there's some subtle twisting of a whole other aspect of this engagement that I suspect Jotheonah of withholding information on at this point in the game.
I will at least admit that I hold information that I am delaying the release of for the sake of Town. I have good reason to believe Jo is withholding to the detriment of Town; specifically to get a certain role to out itself.
I will reveal that I know in a most interesting proxy way that a kill attempt failed on a specific Town PR last night. I'd like to see Jo's claim before I reveal anything further. If, as I beleive, Jo was responsible for the attempt then he needs to be lynched to protect the identity of the Town PR.
Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
Correct. There is a little bit more information about my role that it is in the best interest of Town to keep quiet right now. It specifically has to do with when my power would fail to work, which if it failed I would not get a notification that my power had successfully prevented a kill attempt. If it fails to work I do die.
"the doctor" is lower case in the role description. The quotes I added for the sake of clarity.
Ah, sorry just reread the question. I will survive the first bullet strike each night so long as the power is in effect. Should my power not be in effect I will still catch the first bullet but I will die from it. By power is passive, I do not have to target or otherwise take action to make it happen. I get notified when my power successfully prevents a kill attempt on "the doctor".
I'm pretty sure PPS's results don't implicate me in any way -- they just say that someone tried to kill sudgy.
My contention is that if you targeted sudgy for the kill then you'd need to make this sort of claim to explain away why you were seen targeting sudgy which was precisely your assumption prior to my claim.
pps, what does this mean for what you think about Walrus? Your ability protects "the doctor" and Sudgy was a doctor. I tend to think that your power does not protect all doctors, just The Doctor, which would mean scum could have targeted him and succeeded without any notice to you. However, if scum did not target Sudgy and he died because he targeted Walrus....well that would mean Walrus must be scum
After we got the results at the start of D2 I got confirmation that my power pertains to actual targeted kill attempts and would not protect "the doctor" from his own actions such as sudgy targeting scum.
Thus, this is why I remain neutral on the walrus thing. sudgy very well could have died from targeting walrus and also had a kill attempt made on him. And there is the possibility my notification is not relevant to sudgy at all.
I was very hesitant to come forth with this information precisely because it is so ambiguous about last night's happenings. However I felt it necessary with a wagon building on me since I am the easy mislynch because of where I stood on archetype yesterday and then with Jotheonah appearing ever more scummy and finally his claim to explain why he targeted sudgy.
Ok, so let me get this right. If TWO people target "the doctor" on the same night to kill him (say vig and scum) then the doctor will die. If pps is roleblocked and someone targets "the doctor" to kill him, then "the doctor" will die.
Yes, and a third condition that my power would not be in effect then a single strike at the doctor will kill me while 2 strikes would kill me first and then "the doctor".
It's "one-shot" for the night. The role description doesn't actually use the terminology "one-shot". There is a short description that states I protect the doctor from the first kill attempt against him each night. The actual power is called "Regenerating Protector".
I've dropped enough hints that I am suspicious maybe scum has me figured out and Town doesn't see it so i am going to full claim because I think ashersky's claim needs to be discussed and this information is central.
The modifier (and weakener) to my power is that it is enabled. I didn't know what that meant at all until ashersky came out and claimed up front. Now, I am not saying that this clears ashersky of being scum and I'm not sure that there isn't more than one enabler.
I think the question on my mind is whether or not ashersky claiming enabler is more or less a scum trait? By that, I mean, I am certain there is an enabler in the setup and if I assume ashersky to be the one and only which alignment makes more sense for him to be?
I have up until this point been mostly in agreement about some of the suspicions surrounding ashersky but have tried to stay away from it because my power relies upon either him or another enabler to function.
I have been collecting my thoughts on this angle since ashersky claimed early D1. I can't call it one way or the other but I am beginning to lean towards him being scum who enables town powers which would be a stronger motivation for such an early claim.
pps-ashersky scum team elaborate web of lies?
Seriously? I'm going to tie myself directly to scum partner Archetype on D1 and then tie myself directly to scum partner ashersky on D2? What should I do next self-vote just to make sure I throw this game into this toilet for my scum team?
Get real.
The enabler claim has some merit. I'm willing to bet there are more enabled roles who haven't haven't seen fit to claim as such. No way am I the only one. The alignment of this particular enabler is the suspicious part, not whether there is an enabler or whether or not it's ashersky because the early claim would be retarded for either alignment to make if they were on the enabled side of the equation.
Stop tunneling me long enough to consider whether it is a scum!ash or a town!ash enabler we are working with. I was/am leaning scum!ash but your persistence at painting me scum leans me back towards you being the main bad guy at this point.
Also, Pingpongsam, can you confirm that you know that The Doctor was targeted by a nightkill?
I confirmed that my notifications only result from my power preventing "targeted kill attempts" and no other types of actions that might result in the death of the doctor.
My notification reads: "You have successfully prevented an attempt to kill the doctor".
PPS, what is your flavor? you have claimed your role, and while it might not be any use at all, knowing your flavor would be nice.
Well, I've already stripped to the skivvies might as well show the full monte, eh? I didn't know you could be so forward 2.71828.... good thing you're just a number or I might start to question which way I lean.
My flavor name is Romana (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Romana)
I'm claiming now for a reason. I'm positive, from my role description, that I enabled more than one person. I know what power I enable. I believe that you don't know that you are enabled.
I'm now not sure what to make of Ash's assertion that players don't know that they are enabled. That doesn't seem to match up with PPS's info.
Nice catch, I hadn't picked up on that before. My description makes it clear the power is enabled which I didn't quite get until ashersky claimed.
I think I got my hand slapped for being specific about the verbiage of my notification. I've been trying to carefully skirt the mod-supplied information rule but my mind slipped a bit on that one. Fortunately I'm claimed out so I don't expect to push the boundary any further.
I find it fascinating that when I posited that there would likely be other enabled roles you were quick to point out that your role was not enabled. Out of all the players, you did this. And now you capitulate and state that not only do you have enabled regeneration but that your entire JOAT role power is enabled.
I'm not biasing this observation just yet but damn it sure does seem odd that you would just now get such major clue about your own role's limitations. I gathered as much when ashersky claimed D1 so I can understand not recognizing the importance of the enabled modifier but the whole bit about denying it is what befuddles me.
PPS can you clarify for me one more time that you only see people targeting the doctor to kill and not just targeting in general.
Right, I don't know who did the targeting only that the doctor was targeted for a killing action. As far as I know I would be left completely unaware of any other types of actions targeted towards the doctor or myself.
EFHW, do you have any other role parameters outside of being the IC? A simple yes or no will suffice and a no comment is understandable but it would pertain to ascertaining whether you are "the doctor" or if maybe I protect someone else or multiple doctor titles/roles.
Well, I tried to subtly ask EFHW if there were other aspects to her role. And by that I secretly meant, "do you time travel". The one thing I have not revealed about my role (although it is clear from the flavor name) is that I move through time involuntarily with "the doctor". It was primarily for this reason that i remain uncertain if "the doctor" is EFHW or another power role. I gathered from it that we had a time traveling doctor PR which would is highly unlikely to also be the IC.
FYI, I don't even know what nights I exist in I just know that I travel with the doctor.
I had kept the time travel bit to myself because I did not want to out our best PR. If it's EFHW then I apologize but I have felt from D1 that it isn't. The assumption that "the doctor" is EFHW seemed a safe one to let everyone make until EFHW revealed that she doesn't actually need my protection whereas our time traveling doctor actually does. Also, her revelation removed my own uncertainty about my role.
So you are saying you protect a doctor, but not EFHW?
In case it is not clear. I never said this and I dare you to quote where I did. In fact, I have consistently maintained that I do not know who I protect. I never said I protect EFHW or anyone else specifically. I suggested it is possible I protect everyone with doctor in their name/title. Additionally, I have not once stated that walrus must be scum. I have stated that my night information supports the possibility but that it also supports many other possibilities and thus, no conclusions should be drawn about walrus or sudgy at this time.
Sigh, whatever. It was a Town ploy of redirecting scum away from the time traveling doctor. I knew it would fail when/if EFHW got canned which, judging by the regen thing, probably wouldn't have happened but at that point sufficient time should have passed for Town to secure the win.
say what? you are lying town now?
I never lied. That was the ploy. Paint how you like, scum. You can't substantiate a lie anywhere. It was ambiguous for me so I kept it ambiguous for everyone. Please show me the spot where I specified EFHW as the beneficiary of my protection. Everyone else made that assumption for themselves. Me not arguing it was the ploy which incidentally is not a lie.
#887 claims being enabled and says this is a "full claim". This at least is a straight up lie.
Fair enough. I did knowingly and willingly provide false information at this point. I could have left it out there that I had yet to fully claim everything which would have prompted immediate pressure for the full claim which I had hoped to avoid because the time traveling aspect of the doctor I feel needed to remain at least uncertain. Kudos to EFHW for not answering my subtle request because the information as to who is the time traveling doctor still remains uncertain. That was probably poor play on my part trying to ascertain for my own curiosity who I protected without having to reveal it to everyone. To that end I believed EFHW was never really my beneficiary and with her revelation about her regenerative ability I'm now certain of it so I think I did the right thing here.
Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
Again something you didn't deem necessary to tell us up until now.
Right. I didn't withhold so much as leave it unsaid. I thought it kind of obvious to itself. It was pertinent at this point because it's informative to Town. You want me to flip for information purposes and I'd hate you to waste this mislynch on someone less informative when you won't get the information from the vig. You're obviously not going to kill scum today.
No, my notification came from protecting the doctor. I don't know if I'm notified of being targeted myself. The role description never said anything about notifications to begin with, I just got one after N1.
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Also, there's some subtle twisting of a whole other aspect of this engagement that I suspect Jotheonah of withholding information on at this point in the game.
I will at least admit that I hold information that I am delaying the release of for the sake of Town. I have good reason to believe Jo is withholding to the detriment of Town; specifically to get a certain role to out itself.
PPS -- I'm confused about this point. I went back and looked, and I couldn't find where Joth revealed anything to make you focus on him withholding information. Did I miss it?
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I also have a question about the bolded part of this quote. What is the problem you are seeing with someone claiming enabled (assuming no one had claimed enabler)?
....
The enabler claim has some merit. I'm willing to bet there are more enabled roles who haven't haven't seen fit to claim as such. No way am I the only one. The alignment of this particular enabler is the suspicious part, not whether there is an enabler or whether or not it's ashersky because the early claim would be retarded for either alignment to make if they were on the enabled side of the equation....
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Okay, so finally re-read Walrus and this is what I got.
Just did a quick reread, and the one who jumps out as scummiest to me is vote: sudgy. First of all, that boomtown Archetype wagon seemed to me like it possibly had scum on it. Second of all, every post this game sudgy has been reminding us about when and when he's not joking. Maybe he does that normally to some extent. But it just seems very forced here: HAHA I'm voting for the IC...no HAHA don't vote for me it was just a joke...all my other posts were jokes but not this one HAHA!
Here he protects Arch by putting suspicion on those voting for him.
Archetype: I have a tough time reading this guy, and apparently he will post more starting soon. Obviously the most notable thing is the wagon that ran up on him. I admit that when I first saw his "If ash doesn't get killed N1 -> we can lynch him!" post, I too thought that it looked pretty scummy. But then that "jokey" wagon ran up on him frighteningly fast, and while I believe most of that wagon is jokey, I do think it's likely there's scum on there. So I end up on null-to-scummy on Arch.
Says he thought Arch was scummy, but that there's probably scum on his wagon, but ends up null-to-scummy on Arch.
OK, well it looks like the most major thing that's happened since I last posted was sudgy's half-claim? To be honest I don't like it. Maybe I just don't get it? I'm finding it hard to understand why he would do this as town or scum. But I'm leaning scum.
First of all, couldn't he just lie about his results? "Oh I targeted Bill, and look I didn't die! So I guess Bill's in the clear XD" Meanwhile sudgy and Bill are scumpartners. Am I missing something, or is that a really dangerous possibility?
Second, with claims left and right already this game, maybe sudgy thought he could just slip another one in there and nobody would think too much of it? The timing was really silly, and of course he made sure to mention conspicuously that his claim had *nothing* to do with the votes on him, which is a fine bit of WIFOM. In an RMM environment, we can expect that practically everyone has a PR. So it's easy to claim one, and it's hard to learn too much based on that. Every lynch, mis- or otherwise, is liable to be a PR, and you sort of just have deal with that. Pretty much everyone is going to claim something when they get down to L-1 (or earlier).
Third, in order to use sudgy's supposed ability in a pro-town manner, we'd have to tie up other PRs to confirm his claims. Those PRs could be doing other more useful things, and then we'd have to believe those claims, and so forth. Unless the rest of sudgy's ability is really awesome then maybe there's more efficient things to do.
So I think this claim is pretty weak (HAHAHAHHAHA), and I just talked myself into a vote: sudgy. The only thing holding me back a bit is the fact that this is nowhere near the path of least resistance for scum to take, especially D1. It would be quite gambit-y, which I believe sudgy is capable of, but still not as easy as lurking. If sudgy is town, it could also possibly be an easy mislynch for scum to push through, given its visibility. But despite these reservations, and considering my earlier scumread, I'm happy with my vote for now.
Here I'm actually getting the same sort of vibe which I initially voted Arch for (for the record I'm not claiming a whole lot of credit for the Arch lynch - I saw something early on which I thought was scummy and the person turned out to be scum, maybe I was just lucky), and that is trying too hard to seem to be mulling things over. Especially in the first paragraph here. It just seems a little fake to me.
The other biggest wagon is on Archetype, and I could get behind that too. I mentioned in my previous post that he was one of my scumreads, and I also found his recent post with the "surprise V/LA" to be awfully convenient, just as somebody had called him out about that. So I could be OK with an Arch lynch.
Stating he could get behind the Arch lynch. He reminds us that Arch was a scumread of his and concludes he could be OK with an Arch lynch.
How the hell do you know EFHW isn't a time-traveling doctor IC? This is RMM you know. Plus, haven't there been like 20 doctors by now?l Maybe some more are around. I don't actually watch Dr. Who (gasp!). It just seemed likely to me.
So, as I understand it, you're voting for me mostly because of my explanation of my reservations for voting for sudgy? Grrr. I hate playing the game of "what parts of my thought process are socially acceptable to voice in a Mafia game". I recognize that that looks a little hedgy, and I recognized it when I posted it. But the alternative is for me to contribute less to the discussion and post an incomplete fluffball. Is that what you'd prefer? I coulda just lurked and said LOL CHRISTMAS
If we're not allowed to find people scummy for claims (especially weird D1 half-claims in RMM), and we're not allowed to find people scummy for unannounced V/LA, then scum will prey on our naïveté, and you know there are some players who would fully capitalize on that.
Fine. I apologize for getting frustrated. My point was I put forward the effort to reread and explain my rationale, and I get a vote for my troubles. That was the source of my annoyance. I am not advocating that anybody should lurk.
"Speech is blasphemy, silence a lie. Above speech and silence there is a way out."
--Zen proverb
I've said this before I think, but these two posts seem a bit fake to me.
Time rapidly dissipating before the deadline, and all "wagons" at middling strength. We need to start approaching a conclusion. It would seem that sudgy isn't happening today, so let's try something else. Prove me wrong sudgy.
vote: jotheonah. I wouldn't blame you if you call this OMGUS, and maybe that's part of it. But take a look at this:
The sudgy lynch isn't happening so he turns to jo, someone else he actually wants to lynch.
Well, I really didn want to have to claim today, unlike some of our more eagle claimants. But it looks like I'm defaulting to a lynch and this might be my last chance todo so. So here's some of it:
I am River Song. I have several cool powders including the ability to time travel.
her not have to say more than that, but I will if I have to.
Would I like to joina larger wagon? Like the one on me? No thanks. On xeiron? He's a town read for me and two of my scumreads are currently a boarded. I am willing to join Jimmmmm and vote: Archetype though. I'm not sure what I think about a Galz lynch...I guess it's better than nothing?
And then this. The post in which he voted for Archetype at the point when I was the only other person voting for him. The big question is, obviously, why would he restart the Arch wagon if they were teammates. One answer is that he (Walrus) still expected to be lynched and wanted to have his vote on a teammate to try to give him Towncred. In fact, Walrus still receives votes after this. What's really interesting is that Arch voted for Walrus (#444), then unvoted (#445) then revoted for him (#449). I'm not sure what to make of that. Quite possibly he also thought Walrus was going to be lynched and wanted to make sure he was on the wagon. After this he never really pushed the Arch lynch, probably because he was absent - his last post before the hammer was when Arch only had 4 votes, and his last post about Arch before the hammer was when he only had 2. For me this puts Walrus' voting for Arch at a nulltell at best, and a Mafia scenario makes sense.
In summary Walrus maintained a null-to-scummy read on Arch early Day 1 while also casting suspicion on those voting for him. He and Archetype then voted for each other when it looked like Walrus was going to be lynched, possibly as a way to get Arch Town points. Walrus has also seemed less than genuine at times.
Add in sudgy's death and indications from others that the Mafia may have targeted elsewhere, and I think that's plenty enough for a Vote: Walrus.
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I also have a question about the bolded part of this quote. What is the problem you are seeing with someone claiming enabled (assuming no one had claimed enabler)?
....
The enabler claim has some merit. I'm willing to bet there are more enabled roles who haven't haven't seen fit to claim as such. No way am I the only one. The alignment of this particular enabler is the suspicious part, not whether there is an enabler or whether or not it's ashersky because the early claim would be retarded for either alignment to make if they were on the enabled side of the equation....
Here I am making the point that ashersky's claim adds up, not talking about any other claims. I am saying that his claiming to be the enabler when in fact he is the enabled would be asinine regardless of his alignment. Thus, by being the first to even breach the topic of enablement he logically deduces to be what he says he is regardless of his alignment.
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Also, there's some subtle twisting of a whole other aspect of this engagement that I suspect Jotheonah of withholding information on at this point in the game.
I will at least admit that I hold information that I am delaying the release of for the sake of Town. I have good reason to believe Jo is withholding to the detriment of Town; specifically to get a certain role to out itself.
PPS -- I'm confused about this point. I went back and looked, and I couldn't find where Joth revealed anything to make you focus on him withholding information. Did I miss it?
Yeah, I'll have to reread that because I don't recall the specifics. I do know at the time I was still of the mindset that I had possibly protected sudgy (the time travel light bulb had not gone off). Jo, as I recall was really painting walrus as scum by using the N1 results to leverage his rereads on walrus' D1 play.
This quote set the alarm bells off:
isn't the most likely explanation that scum targeted sudgy?
And if scum targeted sudgy, then the fact that he was targeting Walrus tells us nothing.
He then proceeds to press really hard on a walrus lynch as if the night's results were conclusive. I recall it was subtle enough that I wasn't sure until he started pressing into me and then I felt more certain he had information that let him feel confident pressing the walrus lynch.
Funny, how later, once the spotlight shifted to me, part of his angle against me was that my results couldn't be conclusive and he quit pressing a walrus lynch at all. Scum will take any mislynch they can get, they don't have to be so choosy about their lynch targets.
To wit, when faust started to disagree with the walrus case Jo buddied up by publicly upgrading his lynch pool status on faust claiming a "bad memory" which Jo simply doesn't have. And then, when faust started to suspect me Jo threw his full weight behind it. When I voted him his reaction was to go straight to claiming in a "oh let me explain that thing you saw me doing" sort of way.
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I also have a question about the bolded part of this quote. What is the problem you are seeing with someone claiming enabled (assuming no one had claimed enabler)?
....
The enabler claim has some merit. I'm willing to bet there are more enabled roles who haven't haven't seen fit to claim as such. No way am I the only one. The alignment of this particular enabler is the suspicious part, not whether there is an enabler or whether or not it's ashersky because the early claim would be retarded for either alignment to make if they were on the enabled side of the equation....
Here I am making the point that ashersky's claim adds up, not talking about any other claims. I am saying that his claiming to be the enabler when in fact he is the enabled would be asinine regardless of his alignment. Thus, by being the first to even breach the topic of enablement he logically deduces to be what he says he is regardless of his alignment.
Oh, I see you mean an enabled person claiming enabler would make himself a target. But if he he is scum and enabled, claiming enabler is relatively safer (multiball is still a factor). He might also have regeneration.
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bumping my pps reread and joth partial reread. I'll try to do the second part of the joth reread soon.
pps (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331053#msg331053)
jotheonah (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331297#msg331297)
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I don't like Jimmmmmm's case on Walrus. He hasn't even responded to the suspicion on pps. Walrus I think should definitely be left alive today.
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pps's responses to my summary
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I agree about Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I asked for a reread, he came back with case.
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Can someone please do a summary of 2.7?
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I agree about Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I asked for a reread, he came back with case.
No offense, but regardless of merit, "reread" and "case" often go hand-in-hand. I see no issue with that in particular.
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OK, so I won't have as much time today, and I need to get a vote down. Full disclosure--I didn't do the rereads I had hoped to. Maybe I'll have a chance to look at it more in a few hours. Part of that is because I did a bunch of rereading for another mafia game yesterday and I was kind of burned out. Part of it was that I was playing Europa Universalis and leading the Mamluks to glory.
But the other part of it is that I think I now support a pps lynch above the others. I was leaning against it before, but after his convenient regeneration claim and assertion that he definitely won't die, my suspicions are again flared.
First of all, the "protect the IC" role is an easy one to fake and really grabs at you emotionally--oh no, I'd better not lynch this guy, he's protecting our dear conf!town leader! No active powers to confirm it with really, and slippery passive powers that make him hard to kill. It looks like the IC already has some protection to begin what with the regeneration, and while I could entertain the notion of regeneration and a bodyguard, regeneration and a regenerating bodyguard just seems weird to me.
We already know that we have two regenerating town roles, if you believe EFHW and me. That's kind of a lot already I think--it seems like a pretty good powder and I wouldn't expect a whole lot more people to have it. But it only makes sense I think that there would be at least one regenerating, time-traveling scum/SK/whatever out there who would serve as a worthy nemesis and counterpart for EFHW and me. I'm thinking pps could be that guy. I just don't like the way he reacted to the news that he will have been vigged, and the tone/pacing of his claim in general.
So that's a vote: pingpongsam from me. A little weird to vig someone and then lynch them, maybe, but I think it's the right call.
I would definitely still like to look at xeiron, Jimmmmm, e, faust, yuma et al. later though. I will be around sporadically throughout today and then at least to check in before deadline.
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I agree about Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I asked for a reread, he came back with case.
No offense, but regardless of merit, "reread" and "case" often go hand-in-hand. I see no issue with that in particular.
That's why I was more specific about my request re: a summary of 2.7.
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I agree about Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I asked for a reread, he came back with case.
No offense, but regardless of merit, "reread" and "case" often go hand-in-hand. I see no issue with that in particular.
Are you planning to say anything else?
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I agree about Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I asked for a reread, he came back with case.
No offense, but regardless of merit, "reread" and "case" often go hand-in-hand. I see no issue with that in particular.
That's why I was more specific about my request re: a summary of 2.7.
Got it. Hopefully whomever does the summary doesn't get criticized for IIOA.
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First of all, the "protect the IC" role is an easy one to fake and really grabs at you emotionally--oh no, I'd better not lynch this guy, he's protecting our dear conf!town leader! No active powers to confirm it with really, and slippery passive powers that make him hard to kill. It looks like the IC already has some protection to begin what with the regeneration, and while I could entertain the notion of regeneration and a bodyguard, regeneration and a regenerating bodyguard just seems weird to me.
We already know that we have two regenerating town roles, if you believe EFHW and me. That's kind of a lot already I think--it seems like a pretty good powder and I wouldn't expect a whole lot more people to have it. But it only makes sense I think that there would be at least one regenerating, time-traveling scum/SK/whatever out there who would serve as a worthy nemesis and counterpart for EFHW and me. I'm thinking pps could be that guy. I just don't like the way he reacted to the news that he will have been vigged, and the tone/pacing of his claim in general.
You're like a broken record with this. I never claimed to protect EFHW. That assumption came from others. In fact, I opened up by claiming no clue who I protect and i maintain that now. But, hey, you just admitted you're not really playing the game just taking the lazy way out and following the wagon.
And then, the piece about me assertively stating my regen would prevent your vig... well, jesus, dude, what do you think that means, huh? Oh, yeah the very thing that I said, which is, if you want me to flip for the information then you have to lynch me. Town was toying with the idea of letting your vig flip me and take the lynch elsewhere and I, of all people, noted that my regen would foil that. What scum narrative do I have to encourage my lynch over my vig that I might secretly be able to roleblock or something? Damn, you're lazy as hell, here.
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Vote Count 2.10
jotheonah (1): pingpongsam
Walrus (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
xeiron (1): yuma
pingpongsam (3): jotheonah, faust, Walrus
Not voting (4): EFHW, nkirbit, xeiron, 2.71828.....
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
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Here's a real scum narrative for me to take:
Oh, look walrus could be painted as scum, there's already heaps of suspicion on him
I know let's craft a fake-claim and let's make one that conclusively paints walrus as the bad guy
i mean, why not, should he flip town well it's RMM and maybe things got mixed up somehow, who knows...
Oh look, walrus already has me set to be vigged. Hahaha! what an idiot, I'm bullet-proof, let's make sure we play up the idea that his vig can flip me while we mislynch some other poor sap, whooo! Then, when I don't die walrus comes out looking like a liar, yeehaw easy D3 mislynch on that sucker.
Yeah, so, I didn't do any of that. Wonder why?
Oh, but don't dare look at who is taking choices between the walrus conundrum or the pps easy as pie from D1 mislynch...
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Yeah, I kind of agree with PPS there... why try and make a fake claim to implicate Walrus? Maybe it succeeds.. but PPS looks super scummy the next day.. and for what? He's either not on archetype's team, which means he's either a solo scum or on a scum team of at most two if we have multiball, or a SK, and it's just not worth the suspicion the next day. Especially when there's a chance that Walrus might get lynched anyway without his claim.
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I don't like Jimmmmmm's case on Walrus. He hasn't even responded to the suspicion on pps. Walrus I think should definitely be left alive today.
Can you be more specific on what you didn't like about it? I think it's fine. It's making me less sure than before that Walrus isn't Archetype's teammate.
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Joth part 2
First, his response to my previous summary: “I don't believe I realized my Walrus vote was L-1 at the time I did it. But I know we were nearing the end of the day and I was concerned we wouldn't get consensus for a lynch. I don't dispute anything else in the summary. My reason not to lynch ash was because I wanted to see if scum would kill him for his claim. They didn't. So it no longer applies.”
re: pps 139 “the only person who's raised my scum flag is pps, but I remember from modding DS9 that pps tends to raise my scum flag day 1 even when I'm the mod and I know for sure he's not scum. So that's probably just a blindspot.” 141 it’s pps’s tone, like he is trying too hard. 356 “FoS: chairs and PPS. You don't push for a policy lynch when there are multiple lynches of substance on the table. You're either lazy town or scum if you do.” 357-363 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329267#msg329267) small tiff with pps. DAY 2 766 pps was critical of Arch votes; agrees that scum!pps wouldn’t be so obvious in his defense of Arch. Top scum reads: ash, Walrus, pps. 767 unvotes mistaken xeiron vote, which unvoted Walrus. 777 “ if you re-read PPS's day 1 you'll see there's a significant case” 787 agrees with faust’s case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331108#msg331108) on pps. v. pps. 806 pps’s claim makes him “a little less convinced he's the right lynch here.” 884 “Is PPS's claimed power too strong to be real?” 889 “pps-ashersky scum team elaborate web of lies?” 901 to pps: Meanwhile, you and ashersky together just happen to make a complicated Rube Goldberg machine that keeps our IC alive, so we'd better not lynch either of you. 988 v. pps “the evidence is mounting. and this is panicked scum posting.” 1013 “I have no confidence the vig shot will kill pps, so I'd rather lynch him.” 1050 “I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't feel safer with a perfect narrative for PPS. But LAL, man. Lynch All Liars.”
re: Walrus Day 2 from 769
827 xeiron’s sudgy plan “relies on trusting Walrus to clear his own name, which is never the best idea.” 829 Is there a sudgy/walrus paradox? 955 “Walrus is by far the scummiest claim on the table, as I have said over and over. He would be my pick for a lynch but I don't want to interfere with night action shenanigans.”
re: Archetype
213 challenges faust’s Arch vote. 233 Arch wagon not that scummy. Asks IC for guidance. 459 nkirbit his biggest scum read; doesn’t like Walrus’s claim at all; would switch to Archetype, but doesn’t like Walrus claim. FTR, more null on Archetype, but prefer over no lynch. (this is before yuma brought up no lynch at 491) 496 “What is the case against Arch?” 525 nkirbit’s case is about things that happened after the wagon had started. 533 I really really wish my choice was not between Archetype and no lynch. 535 notes time, v. Archetype {L-1} 546 “At least no one can say that lynch was too easy.” DAY 2 766 2.7 called Arch obvtown; ashersky and nkirbit were the first to vote sudgy after his claim; pps was critical of Arch votes; Admits he was convinced Arch was town, or at least not scum. 774 “I L-1'd Archetype 20 minutes before deadline. Does that make any sense if I'm scum?” nkirbit town read b/c of Archtype wagon; wants to lynch ash, Walrus, yuma, pps. 841 “I know I'm biased, but it's hard for me to see my Archetype vote as a bus.”
re: no lynch
459 FTR, more null on Archetype, but prefer over no lynch. 525 against no lynch, worried about deadline. 532 no lynch is bad b/c lynching is the town’s weapon, and scum will certainly use theirs. 841 if he were scum he wouldn’t have fought so hard against no lynch.
re: yuma
550 after Arch’s lynch “Wow yuma is scummy right now” re: sheeping pr’s and role claim idea. 554 yuma is trying to direct pr’s. 561 yuma is scummy for downplaying the use of deduction, the mass claim idea, and instructing pr’s. DAY 2 647 to yuma re: no lynch “Because Walrus and Archetype were BOTH your partners! You had no other choice. THat's rich!” 650 yuma didn’t have time to form a case on xeiron. 652 to yuma: “I’m not going to argue with scum!” 656 yuma wants to know if Joth has a result on him, joth says he is trying to out a pr. 659 snarky to yuma. 667 thinks yuma is scum from the narrative, doesn’t have extra information. Galz lurked and maybe outed b/c he was scum. 686 yuma was stalling out with no lynch. 691 apologizes for earlier comments about Galz. 879 Doesn’t want to lynch yuma unless Walrus is scum, since his theory rests on Walrus being scum. v. ashersky 882 to faust: “How sure are you that yuma is scum? If Walrus is town, yuma's D1 play is very very strange for scum, coming in and advocating no lynch like that.”
re: sudgy claim
296 “why would sudgy fakeclaim now?” Baffled. 298 sudgy would be dumb scum to claim now, cop could check it out, he wouldn’t get away with it. 335 chides faust for mentioning doctoring sudgy.
re: his claim
646 has things to share 648 no useful information after all after rereading. 792 “I claim at your bidding, IC.” 798 “Ok, I am seeing the potential confusion here and I'm thinking maybe I'd better claim. pps, you watched sudgy, yes? And you saw that I targeted him? is that where we are?” 799 You don't have to answer that actually. I targeted sudgy with an investigative power. Did not learn anything that wasn't revealed in the flip. But I hadn't considered that someone might be watching me. My rationale was that it would be useful if sudgy DID survive the night. 801 faust asks question. “Well, at that point I'm full claiming. SHould I just full claim? I AM at L-2.” 806 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331216#msg331216) claims “[other irrelevant modifier] modifier cop”. 819 I ask if claiming was necessary. “oh probably not. But as soon as I realized that someone could have seen me target sudgy, I thought I should get ahead of the accusation with the truth. I had been teetering on the edge of claiming for a while.” 822 can only use power on non-consecutive nights. 825 Agrees it’s a weak power, “at least the town won't be too screwed if you mislynch me”. Asks us to look at his reads if he is lynched. 841 As for admitting to targeting sudgy ... that's what I did. Would not admitting it have been less scummy? 865 “if you're willing to keep me alive until night 3 I can totally prove my identity by modifier copping someone.” 910 offers to flavor claim
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Geez, sorry pps for being "lazy as hell". Sorry I don't have 18 hours a day to spend on Mafia games. I'll still try to get those rereads done at some point, but this close to deadline I think it's important to have a vote down.
Of course your claim has a town narrative. It would be stupid for scum to barrel on out with a completely baseless claim. But as I've said before, this is RMM. It's not enough to only consider whether someone has claimed, because everyone probably will at some point. The verisimilitude and circumstances of the claims need to be carefully judged. And right now, your claim gives me a scummy feeling in my stomach.
Either way, I don't find your snippy attitude and "would scum really do this?" angle to be particularly convincing.
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Of course your claim has a town narrative. It would be stupid for scum to barrel on out with a completely baseless claim.
See, that's the thing. If I were scum my claim would not have been baseless. As it is, the truth I have to work with is a lot less convenient. I call you lazy not for how much time you allow the game but for not actually analyzing what is happening. You prove this by your own faulty representation of my claiming regeneration as if it somehow would insulate me from a lynch when it does exactly the opposite.
The fact is, the way this day shapes up it's probably either my neck or yours and your vote is just making sure it isn't yours instead of looking for scum. The difference between me and you is I am not looking for the easy alternative to save my neck.
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I'm sorry my analysis isn't as good as yours then.
If you think my vote is purely for defense you are quite mistaken. I haven't even really felt much pressure today at all, actually. Significantly less than D1. I think it's interesting that you're framing this situation as me vs. you.
You're right that this lynch might be "too easy", and I have thought about that. So I'll give you that. But with one scum down, we can expect the amount of resistance to decrease. And I don't see any alternatives I like better right now.
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I've been following along, but still very busy. First day back after vacation.
As mentioned previously, I still think walrus is very likely scum. There's still sudgy's death, which is the only "definitive" information we have at all, plus his claim of being a super unkillable town PR is pretty crazy. I mean, bulletproof roleblocking vig? That's super strong.
(As an aside, some of the bulletproof claims have to be lying, right? Like, our IC and our RB/Vig are unkillable, we have unkillable town in Chairs, who knows what else. Or scum is way strong and Arch was a wimpy role.)
I don't think PPS's claim reads very towny anymore, as I also mentioned before. Seems like scrambling to me. The fight with Walrus actually strengthens both reads, as it makes sense for them to fight each other so that when either of them flips scum, the other will seem towny for the fighting.
nkirbit seems to be keeping calm and carrying on, which is basically towny. Yuma getting at all frustrated over RMM is generally towny. Faust/xeiron are their usual scummy selves, which basically means null at this point. I still think Jimmmmm is scummy for the lurking and chiming in when called out stuff (but NOT for providing a case on Walrus).
I highly prefer walrus and/or PPS for our lynch today. If those don't happen for some reason, I'd go with anyone in the faust/xeiron/Jimmmmm triumverate.
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Funny, how later, once the spotlight shifted to me, part of his angle against me was that my results couldn't be conclusive and he quit pressing a walrus lynch at all. Scum will take any mislynch they can get, they don't have to be so choosy about their lynch targets.
To wit, when faust started to disagree with the walrus case Jo buddied up by publicly upgrading his lynch pool status on faust claiming a "bad memory" which Jo simply doesn't have. And then, when faust started to suspect me Jo threw his full weight behind it. When I voted him his reaction was to go straight to claiming in a "oh let me explain that thing you saw me doing" sort of way.
Just catching up, but let me be clear: I stopped pushing the Walrus lynch because a plan seemed to be emerging to deal with Walrus via night actions, not because I stopped thinking he was scummy. I still think he's scummy.
I do have a bad memory. It didn't help that I did my re-read in three chunks while also boarding and disembarking from various planes. By the time I wrote my mislynch, hours had gone by since I'd made any note about faust.
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Oh look, walrus already has me set to be vigged. Hahaha! what an idiot, I'm bullet-proof, let's make sure we play up the idea that his vig can flip me while we mislynch some other poor sap, whooo! Then, when I don't die walrus comes out looking like a liar, yeehaw easy D3 mislynch on that sucker.
Ok, this one is a good damn point.
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Ok. I see merits and problems with both pps and walrus right now, but I remain convinced there is 1-2 scum among them.
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Funny, how later, once the spotlight shifted to me, part of his angle against me was that my results couldn't be conclusive and he quit pressing a walrus lynch at all. Scum will take any mislynch they can get, they don't have to be so choosy about their lynch targets.
To wit, when faust started to disagree with the walrus case Jo buddied up by publicly upgrading his lynch pool status on faust claiming a "bad memory" which Jo simply doesn't have. And then, when faust started to suspect me Jo threw his full weight behind it. When I voted him his reaction was to go straight to claiming in a "oh let me explain that thing you saw me doing" sort of way.
Just catching up, but let me be clear: I stopped pushing the Walrus lynch because a plan seemed to be emerging to deal with Walrus via night actions, not because I stopped thinking he was scummy. I still think he's scummy.
I do have a bad memory. It didn't help that I did my re-read in three chunks while also boarding and disembarking from various planes. By the time I wrote my mislynch, hours had gone by since I'd made any note about faust.
Scumslip much?
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nah, I typed it on my phone. lynch list must have autocorrected to mislynch.
how does that even make sense as a scum slip?
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I agree about Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I asked for a reread, he came back with case.
I re-read and posted what I thought. Were you looking for something more neutral?
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I don't like Jimmmmmm's case on Walrus. He hasn't even responded to the suspicion on pps. Walrus I think should definitely be left alive today.
What don't you like about it, and what does it have to do with pps?
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I am smelling a Pingpongsam - Ashersky scumteam.
I would need to reread once more to make sure facts actually fits such a narrative, but it looks like it on the top of my head.
Some new info could also help.
EFHW, would you mind answering some questions?
1. Can you time travel?
2. Are you told that you are enabeled? If yes. Your whole role, as Walrus, or a specific part?
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Re: Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I was looking for something more neutral. It's not a scumtell or anything that you didn't do it, it's just there is less information to help us. I see how reread and case are sometimes used interchangeably, and I'll be more specific next time.
Interesting no one wrote up 2.7.
xeiron, sorry, I'm not going to answer those questions without a lot more of a reason. And if pps and ashersky are partners, then ashersky has just thrown his partner to the wolves.
I'm going to come out and say that my top scumread is Jotheonah. I'd like to hear what you guys think about that.
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Jotheonah - I had him as a scum read (voting for him before his claim) but after the claim I retracted that vote. Now, with all these new claims and all I will have to go back and look more at his claim and see what I think now.
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Ok, I was hoping that the answers could contradict pingpongsam, and maybe even tie him to Ash.
I still feel good about. vote: pingpongsam
The collition between EFHW claiming regeneration and pps claiming to regenerate for 'the doctor' is pretty damning in it's self.
Even if pingpongsam should be town, his lynch would be most informative.
I would also point out that pingpongsam was the first to talk about regeneration. It would be dificult to guess that regeneration would be a major theme if it was not part of your role. If he flips scum, but without regeneration powers we all but know his teammate has a power that deals with regeneration...
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Re: Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I was looking for something more neutral. It's not a scumtell or anything that you didn't do it, it's just there is less information to help us. I see how reread and case are sometimes used interchangeably, and I'll be more specific next time.
I still don't understand this. I've been struggling to get into this game, admittedly through entirely my own fault, and when I finally make a reasonable effort you chide me for... having an opinion. I mean, if all you wanted was someone to copy-paste all of his posts into one big post then anyone could have done that. That doesn't help me catch up and it certainly doesn't help anyone else evaluate me. If you wanted me to comment on them without actually offering an opinion, well to me that seems much less helpful.
Of course, this is a fairly pointless argument.
I will re-read e and/or pps when I have time and offer my opinions.
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I was having trouble keeping all the claims completely together so I went and skimmed (if I missed something tell me) the thread for all the claims. The following is a compilation of what I found
Ashersky - A regeneration (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331682#msg331682) enabler (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327482#msg327482)
Walrus - River Song. An enabled (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331688#msg331688), time-traveling (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329726#msg329726), even night vig/odd night roleblocker (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329772#msg329772). Plus one more thing that he has not claimed (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329772#msg329772) (unless that was the enabled part)
EFHW - The regenerating (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331889#msg331889) Doctor (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327468#msg327468)
pingpongsam - The enabled (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331578#msg331578), One-shot regenerating doctor (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331207#msg331207) (ambiguous, but logically applies to EFHW) protector. Meaning that he protects the doctor for one and only one shot each night. But that power regenerates and can continue to protect the doctor the next night.
Jotheonah - [other irrelevant modifier that I didn't notice him add to his claim any other time] modifier cop (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331216#msg331216).
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also, 15 hours to deadline
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I'm going to come out and say that my top scumread is Jotheonah. I'd like to hear what you guys think about that.
I still do find him scummy for his actions as the Archetype wagon started yesterday. I would be willing to lynch there, as I have no confidence that there's scum in either PPS or Walrus.
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To be clear, regeneration was the last unrevealed bit I was referring to.
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I'm going to come out and say that my top scumread is Jotheonah. I'd like to hear what you guys think about that.
I still do find him scummy for his actions as the Archetype wagon started yesterday. I would be willing to lynch there, as I have no confidence that there's scum in either PPS or Walrus.
This is me completely... Except I vastly prefer xeiron.
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I think pps claimed early to claim early, because early claims are generally believed more than late claims.
are they? look back at recent games and prove this, i don't think you will be able to do so...
I just have to look at this game and your earlier post that we should lynch amongst the uncalimed to prove this.
this proves absolutely nothing. I wonder if you have a different interpretation of "prove" than I do because the "proof" that you are relying on here is based on data that has not been confirmed... namely claims that have been made and my alignment.
Whereas I asked you to go back and look at games where the data had been provided and the flips shown. So, yeah obviously we have a different view point of "prove" and really there is not point to furthering this discussion unless you want to change your view point to one that is rational and not completely based off emotions and skewed biases.
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I agree about Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I asked for a reread, he came back with case.
No offense, but regardless of merit, "reread" and "case" often go hand-in-hand. I see no issue with that in particular.
my concern with jimmmmm's post on walrus is how quickly he comes to a conclusion that walrus is scummy and worth voting. If he only did a reread on Walrus and not the rest of the game or the players and just decided to put down a vote without analyzing the rest of the relevant information that is concerning... Stating opinions isn't a problem, nor is that it isn't neutral. It is that he has come to a decision that he wants to lynch walrus without, apparently, viewing the whole picture and being fully caught up.
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2.7 summary since the IC wants one and no one else seems to want to do it (just D1. someone else can do D2. I just got bored with doing my own summary):
An extremely lackluster D1. Really only has 6 posts with any content. There was some V/LA going on, but really it seems like he was just struggling to get into the game (ok that is me giving my own interpretation rather than a non-biased summary)
#195 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328102#msg328102) - A post analyzing Ash's enabler claim. Ends with saying that he does not support an Ash lynch
#209 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328164#msg328164) - A post about the stump claim. Not much here though
#262 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328643#msg328643) - A reads post. Does not have any scum reads. There was the interesting obv!town on Archetype, but upon further consideration that really looks like a OMGU(are awesome) joke since Arch had a town read on him. I mean, giving town reads out because someone says you are town? obv!joke
#338 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329061#msg329061) - Full reread post. No strong scum reads. Although Faust seems scummy to him. And Joth also was seeming scummier.
#379 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329483#msg329483) - A narrowing the lynch pool post. ends up voting xeiron
#530 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329938#msg329938) - Approaching the deadline, votes Archetype because of the scummy vote/unvote/vote of Walrus at L-1.
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So, imagine you are scum. Your partner is at L-2. There are 20 minutes left until deadline. Do you vote?
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I am smelling a Pingpongsam - Ashersky scumteam.
I would need to reread once more to make sure facts actually fits such a narrative, but it looks like it on the top of my head.
Some new info could also help.
EFHW, would you mind answering some questions?
1. Can you time travel?
2. Are you told that you are enabeled? If yes. Your whole role, as Walrus, or a specific part?
Seriously...
Calling scumteams based off???? What??? Why am I the only person who finds xeiron ridiculously scummy? EFHW am I completely off base here? I don't think I am and I am really trying to not come at this with a bias, but I am sure I have some, but I seem to be completely alone in this area.
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So, imagine you are scum. Your partner is at L-2. There are 20 minutes left until deadline. Do you vote?
When are we talking about? Day1 of this game. No. I probably wouldn't, especially in a RMM game where my partner is a bus driver. But it completely depends on the context of the game.
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I am smelling a Pingpongsam - Ashersky scumteam.
I would need to reread once more to make sure facts actually fits such a narrative, but it looks like it on the top of my head.
Some new info could also help.
EFHW, would you mind answering some questions?
1. Can you time travel?
2. Are you told that you are enabeled? If yes. Your whole role, as Walrus, or a specific part?
Seriously...
Calling scumteams based off???? What??? Why am I the only person who finds xeiron ridiculously scummy? EFHW am I completely off base here? I don't think I am and I am really trying to not come at this with a bias, but I am sure I have some, but I seem to be completely alone in this area.
But he always does this - takes a little bit of info and develops a complicated theory. I'm surprised he didn't think it might be detrimental for me to answer.
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To be clear, regeneration was the last unrevealed bit I was referring to.
oops. forgot to include your regeneration part of the claim.
So Walrus is River Song. An enabled (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331688#msg331688), regenerating (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331686#msg331686), time-traveling (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329726#msg329726), even night vig/odd night roleblocker (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329772#msg329772).
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I'm going to come out and say that my top scumread is Jotheonah. I'd like to hear what you guys think about that.
I still do find him scummy for his actions as the Archetype wagon started yesterday. I would be willing to lynch there, as I have no confidence that there's scum in either PPS or Walrus.
This is me completely... Except I vastly prefer xeiron.
can you point us to your xeiron case?
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pps your getting a message telling you the protection was successful seems a little strange. Does that happen with bodyguards in general? Can you shed any more light on that?
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I'm going to come out and say that my top scumread is Jotheonah. I'd like to hear what you guys think about that.
I still do find him scummy for his actions as the Archetype wagon started yesterday. I would be willing to lynch there, as I have no confidence that there's scum in either PPS or Walrus.
This is me completely... Except I vastly prefer xeiron.
can you point us to your xeiron case?
I'll try, I am having a really hard time accessing the forum and posting and I need to get to bed soon... but I havne't written up just a big post with a case cause that isn't how I am approaching this game, but if I can't get this up just search my name and you will see a handful of posts that show where I am pointing out stuff xeiron has done.
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I'm going to come out and say that my top scumread is Jotheonah. I'd like to hear what you guys think about that.
I still do find him scummy for his actions as the Archetype wagon started yesterday. I would be willing to lynch there, as I have no confidence that there's scum in either PPS or Walrus.
This is me completely... Except I vastly prefer xeiron.
can you point us to your xeiron case?
This was where I ended up on a xeiron vote D1 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329483#msg329483), and here is where I ended up with a xeiron vote D2 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331734#msg331734).
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In fact, with all of the claiming, vigging, and stuff happening I think that I will place my vote on a vote: xeiron right now.
PPS may very well be scum, but I want to see if he dies from the alleged vig.
Walrus may very well be scum, but I don't really get a scummy feeling from him
Jotheonah may very well be scum, but I actually kind of believe his very modest claim among all outlandish claims.
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pps your getting a message telling you the protection was successful seems a little strange. Does that happen with bodyguards in general? Can you shed any more light on that?
It happens with bulletproof. It doesn't really happen with bodyguards in general, because bodyguards usually die, right? Their notification is that they're dead.
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I'm warming up to the idea of a 2.7 lynch. He's been giving me a bad feeling.
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Hope this helps. It is all I have time for.
2.7's case on xeiron that i partially sheep (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331652#msg331652)
my vote on xeiron (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331713#msg331713)
specifically the first paragraph where I feel like he is approaching the game as gunning for the obvious mislynches in me, walrus and now pps (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331811#msg331811)
calling ash-pps scum team (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg332260#msg332260) just shooting stuff all over based purely off speculation, if you can even call it that....
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I'm warming up to the idea of a 2.7 lynch. He's been giving me a bad feeling.
Even if you lead a lynch against me, I still think you are the towniest person around (except EFHW)
Right now I have a strong town read on nkirbit
Modest town read on yuma
50/50 read on Jimmmmm (primarily lurky), Faust, Ashersky (his enabling could be town or scum I don't know which and until then he is on the null side) and Walrus (I would say town except for the sudgy result which brings him down to null)
Modest scum read on Joth, PPS, and xeiron and of those three I like my vote on xeiron
and then there is stumpy chairs.
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pps your getting a message telling you the protection was successful seems a little strange. Does that happen with bodyguards in general? Can you shed any more light on that?
Not really anything else to say. The message was unexpected, there is no mention of it in my role PM. IINM the typical bodyguard role targets his beneficiary and dies in place of them. I suppose the notification is informative in place of just outright dying since I regenerate from the shot and I don't know who the beneficiary is regardless of what everyone else concludes. Considering I have no other abilities the information seems to be the thing I get to actually use to locate scum as opposed to say a watcher result or cop result although a whodunnit would certainly be far more useful.
PPE: 5 no changes made
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Oh yeah, Chairs. I've completely forgotten about him.
There just has to be something more to his role, right? I mean, if I joined a game and was given a role saying, "Starting day 2, you can't really play anymore".. i'd be moderately to very pissed. That just sucks. RMM should be about everyone having a fun role.. which leads me to think there must be some twist there.
But we'll worry about that if/when it comes up.
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Walrus what led you to pick pps as your vig victim?
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I'm warming up to the idea of a 2.7 lynch. He's been giving me a bad feeling.
I think you need to say more!
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I'm having issues with the forums going down.. every other page gives me a "server is too busy message".
I'll be back in a bit to explore it more, but I don't have a solid case at the moment. The thing that has me the must uneasy is how he reacted to your claim and what it meant for PPS. He immediately started pushing PPS.. and didn't appear to later back off and reconsider until others did so and said we should do so. (If I recall correctly). That's exactly the sort of position I expect scum to take with regards to PPS.. push him heavily, and when he flips town, say, "Well, it's not my fault, PPS shouldn't have lied/been as inconsistent as he was."
Of course, the above is assuming PPS is town.
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Oh yeah, Chairs. I've completely forgotten about him.
There just has to be something more to his role, right? I mean, if I joined a game and was given a role saying, "Starting day 2, you can't really play anymore".. i'd be moderately to very pissed. That just sucks. RMM should be about everyone having a fun role.. which leads me to think there must be some twist there.
But we'll worry about that if/when it comes up.
I was curious if he might be an odd day town/even day stump. Maybe some more stuff. Maybe an enabler? I think that there is a very real possibility of multiple enablers. Maybe Ash enables regeneration, someone else enables other powers. This is all pure speculation though
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and didn't appear to later back off and reconsider until others did so and said we should do so. (If I recall correctly).
you don't recall correctly. The post after Walrus said he vigged PPS for N2 I unvoted. That did not take away my scumread, just my vote.
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But you haven't yet gone back to PPS. All you've said is, "I want to see how the vig plays out." I think that's bad, because scum almost certainly are able to regenerate, or roleblock, or something else that would mess up the kill. Hell, PPS was the first one to bring forth regeneration, right? That means that if PPS is scum, he or a teammate have regeneration or a way to cause regeneration.
But you haven't even considered lynching PPS anyway. I know if I believed that PPS was scum, I'd probably be voting there regardless... but you haven't appeared to be putting any thought towards the issue. It's something worth discussing, at the very least
Town has a lot of incentive to talk about PPS if he turns out to be scum, because the answer to "Should we lynch him anyway" isn't immediately obvious.
Mafia has an incentive to back off, because they don't want to waste a mislynch on someone who is possibly getting killed tonight anyway.
I don't think town who thinks PPS is scum should say, "Nah, let's wait til tomorrow". Scum wants to do that more, IMO.
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I'll check in tomorrow before work and put down a final vote as I won't be around for deadline... but I am fairly confident I wont' be voting for either pps or walrus, really I would vote for joth, Jimmm or xeiron
I see nkirbit's points about 2.7, but don't fully agree with them, anything he has done I feel that xeiron has done more so, whereas 2.7 I feel had a townier response to the arch wagon (this is purely based off memory, so I can't be completely sure about it) and has just felt more like town trying to get a correct lynch than scum trying to get a mislynch....
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I'll re-read Xeiron soon. I don't agree that Xeiron calling a scumteam makes him scummy at all (he certainly did way crazier things as town in innovation). I agreed that I found him a bit scummier earlier (even voting for him, I think), though I'm not 100% sure why. But I'll check it out. And post more on 2.7, hopefully.
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True, I have not posted about following up on a PPS lynch. Because my thoughts are the same as those that I posted after the EFHW claim. I think that the EFHW claim severely indicts PPS, but in case the vig does work, we might as well let that kill him.
Reason that we want the vig to work (or at least give it a try) :
It confirms town!walrus if PPS is scum
I think the possibility of confirming Walrus as town is worth waiting one day to lynch PPS if he doesn't die overnight
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The reason that I voted xeiron:
I do not like the stances he has held (which I think are scummy) and the plans he has made for PRs (which I think is scummy).
Early D1 vote on Archetype. First wagons never succeed, and usually end with more town cred to the person surviving them. Xeiron was the first "real" vote on Archetype, building a (self-proclaimed (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328302#msg328302)) weak case against him.
Comes up with the plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328756#msg328756) for sudgy to use. (which sudgy adopted)
Then comes up with all sorts of plans (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328860#msg328860) for how to occupy other PRs with sudgy.
xeiron seems the same as always to me. This is a really weak case, IMO. What scummy stances?
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Vote Count 2.11
jotheonah (1): pingpongsam
Walrus (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
xeiron (2): yuma, 2.71828.....
pingpongsam (4): jotheonah, faust, Walrus, xeiron
Not voting (2): EFHW, nkirbit
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
That's in about 14 hours
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To be clear, regeneration was the last unrevealed bit I was referring to.
oops. forgot to include your regeneration part of the claim.
So Walrus is River Song. An enabled (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331688#msg331688), regenerating (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331686#msg331686), time-traveling (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329726#msg329726), even night vig/odd night roleblocker (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329772#msg329772).
Man, put in one line like that, it just seems so incredibly made up.
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We've got serious wagons, at least, even if the votes aren't high. I think there are supporters for lynches of all four players with votes currently on them.
I've done my popsquiz, but can do it again. I think everyone (except the IC) should put down some preferences in their next post, as the deadline approaches.
Tops to lynch: walrus/PPS
Next to lynch: xeiron/Jimmmm
Null: yuma, joth, faust, 2.7
Town: EFHW, nkirbit
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To be clear, regeneration was the last unrevealed bit I was referring to.
oops. forgot to include your regeneration part of the claim.
So Walrus is River Song. An enabled (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331688#msg331688), regenerating (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331686#msg331686), time-traveling (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329726#msg329726), even night vig/odd night roleblocker (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329772#msg329772).
Man, put in one line like that, it just seems so incredibly made up.
See, I thought the same thing.. and was wondering if it wasn't written that way for a reason.
The other thing about Walrus.. what incentive does he have to go back and say, "Sorry! I'm enabled regenerating! I forgot that earlier!!".. if he isn't actually telling the truth?
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Town: EFHW, PPS, Walrus, Yuma
Null: Ashersky, Faust, Jimm, Xeiron
Scummy: Joth, 2.7
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The reason that I voted xeiron:
I do not like the stances he has held (which I think are scummy) and the plans he has made for PRs (which I think is scummy).
Early D1 vote on Archetype. First wagons never succeed, and usually end with more town cred to the person surviving them. Xeiron was the first "real" vote on Archetype, building a (self-proclaimed (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328302#msg328302)) weak case against him.
Comes up with the plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328756#msg328756) for sudgy to use. (which sudgy adopted)
Then comes up with all sorts of plans (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg328860#msg328860) for how to occupy other PRs with sudgy.
xeiron seems the same as always to me. This is a really weak case, IMO. What scummy stances?
"stances" refers mainly to his voting history and accusing Joth of being scum for doing the eact same things he did, which you can see in my case here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331734#msg331734).
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To be clear, regeneration was the last unrevealed bit I was referring to.
oops. forgot to include your regeneration part of the claim.
So Walrus is River Song. An enabled (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331688#msg331688), regenerating (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331686#msg331686), time-traveling (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329726#msg329726), even night vig/odd night roleblocker (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329772#msg329772).
Man, put in one line like that, it just seems so incredibly made up.
See, I thought the same thing.. and was wondering if it wasn't written that way for a reason.
yeah. I wrote it that way because he claimed all those things. I could have made a longer sentence if I really wanted to.
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Town: EFHW, PPS, Walrus, Yuma
Null: Ashersky, Faust, Jimm, Xeiron
Scummy: Joth, 2.7
I do not understand how you can think Walrus and PPS are both town. PPS's claim totally frames Walrus as being scummy.
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I just reread xeiron, and I see nothing there. Really. Sorry yuma.
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Lynch! - xeiron
Lynch tomorrow (not today) if he doesn't die tonight - PPS
Would vote to at least get a lynch - Jimmmmm, Jotheonah
Not a fan of lynching - Ashersky, Faust, nkirbit, Walrus, Yuma
stump - chairs
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I just don't get the wait til tomorrow, then lynch PPS plan... if he's town, he's probably not dying tonight because he can regenerate.
If he's scum.. is he really going to die from a vigilante shot that he knows is coming, and where it's coming from? Especially given that he was the first person to bring up regeneration? I doubt it. It just seems extremely hopeful.
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Jothenoah got no defense from anyone. This points away from his being scum.
I am considering a pps lynch for information purposes and because there are so many inconsistencies in his story, and despite the towniness of his posts. nkirbit is a top town read for me, so his supporting pps does give me pause.
I think Walrus would be the second most logical choice, again because of evidence not posts, because he seems quite towny as well.
The next most informative would be joth, b/c he has taken a lot of stances.
I am against a xeiron lynch.
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I was having trouble keeping all the claims completely together so I went and skimmed (if I missed something tell me) the thread for all the claims. The following is a compilation of what I found
Ashersky - A regeneration (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331682#msg331682) enabler (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327482#msg327482)
Walrus - River Song. An enabled (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331688#msg331688), time-traveling (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329726#msg329726), even night vig/odd night roleblocker (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329772#msg329772). Plus one more thing that he has not claimed (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg329772#msg329772) (unless that was the enabled part)
EFHW - The regenerating (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331889#msg331889) Doctor (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg327468#msg327468)
pingpongsam - The enabled (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331578#msg331578), One-shot regenerating doctor (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331207#msg331207) (ambiguous, but logically applies to EFHW) protector. Meaning that he protects the doctor for one and only one shot each night. But that power regenerates and can continue to protect the doctor the next night.
Jotheonah - [other irrelevant modifier that I didn't notice him add to his claim any other time] modifier cop (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg331216#msg331216).
non-consecutive night is the modifier. I have claimed it previously.
I agree with nkirbit, the vig shot is a non-factor.
This is important: Has pps flavor claimed yet? What flavor has he claimed?
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I checked he has. Question two: has anyone other than EFHW, Walrus, and PPS claimed regenerating?
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Walrus what led you to pick pps as your vig victim?
On my phone probably until deadline, so I can't give you as detailed an answer as you might like. But the two-line summary is that I found it likely that there would be scum off of the Archetype wagon. Then I went back and reread D1 through the lens of Arch flipping scum. And pps seemed like a good candidate.
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So everyone who has claimed regenerating has claimed flavor that makes sense with regenerating.
But most claims in general are from the new series (Eccleston onward). PPS's claim, Romana, is a Time Lady, with regen, but as far as I can tell a character exclusively from the old show. Romana as flavor makes some sense as a doctor protector.
Still, it's the strongest candidate for mod-supplied fake claim out of the three.
Also, there is an obvious regenerating BAD GUY who I would be surprised at seeing omitted -- The Master.
What I've been asking myself is, flavorwise, who or what ENABLES regeneration. I think I have a guess at ash's flavor claim. If I'm right it's super wacky. But I guess there's no reason to expose it.
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I put my comupter away, I have one last phone thought. I think we should look again at that Walrus wagon that grew so easily earlyish Day 1.
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So everyone who has claimed regenerating has claimed flavor that makes sense with regenerating.
But most claims in general are from the new series (Eccleston onward). PPS's claim, Romana, is a Time Lady, with regen, but as far as I can tell a character exclusively from the old show. Romana as flavor makes some sense as a doctor protector.
Still, it's the strongest candidate for mod-supplied fake claim out of the three.
Also, there is an obvious regenerating BAD GUY who I would be surprised at seeing omitted -- The Master.
What I've been asking myself is, flavorwise, who or what ENABLES regeneration. I think I have a guess at ash's flavor claim. If I'm right it's super wacky. But I guess there's no reason to expose it.
You know I claimed my flavor at EFHW's request, right?
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Tbh, I'm not convinced about the 3 main wagons, and this is off the wall but I actually think we should lynch among Yuma, Jimmmmm and Faust. All have been off our scumhunting radars. Maybe now I can sleep!
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Can I get this answered?
Okay. So. Mod question:
If someone (i.e. Walrus) targets a player N2 and that same player is removed from the game via a lynch D2, does Walrus still count as targeting this player N2? That means, more specifically: Can Walrus travel to N2 again or can't he?
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Tbh, I'm not convinced about the 3 main wagons, and this is off the wall but I actually think we should lynch among Yuma, Jimmmmm and Faust. All have been off our scumhunting radars. Maybe now I can sleep!
Is this your only reason to lynch us? Because you know, you have been off our scumhunting radars as well...
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I am positive that a pps lynch today will reveal a great deal of important information.
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I'd like to add to the pps case that his claim doesn't even make sense. He claimed Enabled Time-Traveling Regenerating Protector. Now here's the mod-confirmed information how time travel works.
Time Travel occurs as step 0 (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution), with the Time Traveling role journeying to their destination, carrying out their action, and then returning to the current night. This "returning" does not count as a "visit" for purposes of Time Travel. As such, they are still eligible to travel to the current night via time travel on a later night. They are not a vanilla member of their faction during this "returning" visit, and they are eligible to be targeted by actions. If, however, a Time Traveling role elects not to use their ability on a night, they are considered to have Time Traveled to that same night and as such it counts as "visited" for the purposes of time travel.
If, as pps claims, he travels with the doctor, then he would be back to the current night before he or the doctor could have been targeted in the night they traveled to. In other words: His time-travelling ability doesn't do anything.
Plus, the whole time-travel claim smells of rolefishing for a time-travelling doctor, which would be one of the strongest PRs available to town.
At this point, I am very unlikely to move my vote from pps.
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Didn't get around to re-reading tonight.. Will do so during the day tomorrow
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Wee, the forum is up again...
Do we get a deadline extension?
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seems unfair not to.
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I say we work under the assumption that we will get an extension of the deadline. This is where we are at right now for a lynch:
Vote Count 2.11
jotheonah (1): pingpongsam
Walrus (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
xeiron (2): yuma, 2.71828.....
pingpongsam (4): jotheonah, faust, Walrus, xeiron
Not voting (2): EFHW, nkirbit
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time
That's in about 14 hours
I think we should lynch one of the 4 players who currently have votes. I want to hear from Voltaire about extending the deadline, but I will vote PPS to get a lynch if necessary
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By my estimates, the forum was down for about 7 hours. So the new deadline is 7 PM forum time today.
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By my estimates, the forum was down for about 7 hours. So the new deadline is 7 PM forum time today.
Well, this sucks for me. I was quite happy with the original deadline because it would have allowed me to stick around until the end, but with this new deadline, it's just not possible. I need to go now. I might check in once more before the deadline, but don't expect me to move my vote or take part in discussions today.
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Can I get this answered?
Okay. So. Mod question:
If someone (i.e. Walrus) targets a player N2 and that same player is removed from the game via a lynch D2, does Walrus still count as targeting this player N2? That means, more specifically: Can Walrus travel to N2 again or can't he?
FYI, to get mod confirmation about questions, you need to phrase them as generically as possible. If a player targets another player at night who is no longer in the game, their targeting will fail as they have no legal target.
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priority of lynch of people with votes:
xeiron
Joth
PPS
Walrus
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Vote Count 2.12
jotheonah (1): pingpongsam
Walrus (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
xeiron (2): yuma, 2.71828.....
pingpongsam (4): jotheonah, faust, Walrus, xeiron
Not voting (2): EFHW, nkirbit
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at 7 PM forum time
That's in about 7.5 hours
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Cool--I'm on my way to work now but I'll have an opportunity to look things over at lunchtime, about 3 hours before new deadline.
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People who are not voting pps. Why not?
nkirbit, you're exempt.Tbh, I'm not convinced about the 3 main wagons, and this is off the wall but I actually think we should lynch among Yuma, Jimmmmm and Faust. All have been off our scumhunting radars. Maybe now I can sleep!
yuma has sure not been off my scumhunting radar.
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People who are not voting pps. Why not?
I want to give the vig a chance to work. If it does work, then that (almost) confirms Walrus as town. Granted, there is some night manipulation that could go on, but I think the information we could possibly get from a vig shot is greater than the info from just lynching.
I will be able to vote around 6PM forum time or so, and will hammer PPS or whatever if we need it, but I prefer other lynches right now
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Voltaire - thank you for the extension!
I'm just signing in now after being unable to all morning. I'll be catching up now.
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I'd like to add to the pps case that his claim doesn't even make sense. He claimed Enabled Time-Traveling Regenerating Protector. Now here's the mod-confirmed information how time travel works.
Time Travel occurs as step 0 (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_Action_Resolution), with the Time Traveling role journeying to their destination, carrying out their action, and then returning to the current night. This "returning" does not count as a "visit" for purposes of Time Travel. As such, they are still eligible to travel to the current night via time travel on a later night. They are not a vanilla member of their faction during this "returning" visit, and they are eligible to be targeted by actions. If, however, a Time Traveling role elects not to use their ability on a night, they are considered to have Time Traveled to that same night and as such it counts as "visited" for the purposes of time travel.
If, as pps claims, he travels with the doctor, then he would be back to the current night before he or the doctor could have been targeted in the night they traveled to. In other words: His time-travelling ability doesn't do anything.
Faust is right. You can't be a target when you are time traveling, only when you get back. He says this is a passive ability, not a night action he takes that might take effect later. So time travel is completely irrelevant to his role.
Voltaire am I correct that you can't be the target of night actions while you are time travelling? Only actions from your actual night will affect you, some of which might have been done by time travelers?
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If I get confirmation from Voltaire, I'll be voting pps.
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Voltaire am I correct that you can't be the target of night actions while you are time travelling? Only actions from your actual night will affect you, some of which might have been done by time travelers?
Player(s) who time-travel may be the target of actions on the night they time-travel to as well as on the night they departed from if the departure night is the "return" visit (their first time in that night). A subsequent visit to the departure night via time-travel will override the return visit. See the clarification post from the beginning part of the thread for more details.
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Set-Up Information:
"Example game"[/b]]As an example, imagine a game with the following roles: Time Traveling town doctor, Time Traveling mafia roleblocker, and some number of VTs and Goons.
On N1, the doc travels to N3 and docs VTa. The roleblocker elects not to travel and so travels to N1 normally, blocking VTb. The mafia kills VTc. Results: On N1, VTb is roleblocked and VTc dies.
On N2, the doc travels to N1 and docs VTc. The roleblocker travels to N3, blocking the doctor. The mafia kills VTa. Results: On N1, VTb is roleblocked. VTc is saved from the mafia kill by the doctor, which means that VTc has come back to life and will rejoin the game on D3*. On N2, no power roles use powers, and VTa dies.
On N3, the doc travels to N2 and docs VTa. The roleblocker travels to N2 and blocks VTb. The mafia kills VTc (again). Results: On N2, VTb is roleblocked. VTa is saved from the mafia kill by the doctor, which means that VTa has come back to life and will rejoin the game on D4**. On N3, the doctor targets VTa, which fails as the doctor is roleblocked. VTc dies.
*if VTc had been a power role, he would have been eligible to use his power on N2.
**if VTa had been a power role, he would have been eligible to use his power on N3.
This example game is broken, of course. I wouldn't give away what the actual setup looks like. :)
This is very confusing. But it sounds from this example that actions done in the future do not take effect until that future has become the present. You said the roleblocker blocks the doctor on N3. Whatever actions the doctor takes on N3, whether done in the present or placed from the past, are not affected by the role block until N3 is being resolved. Correct? But if on N3 the doctor had gone to N4 to do some doctoring, that new action would not be blocked by the N3 roleblock, but the N3 healing placed N1 would still be blocked.
So in effect, each night you have Step 0, when people "place" actions in the future or past. Then they go home. The actions do not take effect yet.
So the doctor travels from N1 and places an order to protect VTd on N3. Doctor comes home. This time travel cannot be blocked. N3 hasn't happened yet, so the protection order is recorded but not executed yet. The roleblocker decides to stay in N1.
N2 arrives. During Step 0, the roleblocker visits N3 and places an order to block the doctor on N3. The doctor decides to heal in the present and is not blocked.
Then N3 arrives. Step 0 happens again for those time traveling on N3, but no new actions are added to N3 by time travelers, just the ones placed in N3 on other nights. Non-time travelers place their N3 actions. You now have a collection of night actions. Some were placed in the present, some were placed by travelers from the future or past. These are then resolved in the normal way, except that some roles might get to perform their action more than once. The doctor stays home again, but is now blocked. Both the previous healing and the healing ordered to be done N3 without time travel do not happen.
With passive healing, orders cannot be placed in other nights. During Step 0, no night actions are resolved on any targets, b/c night actions other than time travel are all resolved after step 0. So no one can be killed while time traveling, and passive healing would not kick in. If N3 includes a kill order for the doctor, however it was placed, that kill attempt will happen when N3 is the present and not while the doctor was visiting from the past.
Is that right?
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Also, if the doctor is targeted for killing N1, having traveled to N3 that night would not protect him. He would still die N1 unless there were other powers preventing it. His N3 action still stands, b/c he was alive when he did it, but if someone travels to N0 (for the purposes of this example) and kills him then, his N3 action is cancelled b/c he was not alive in N1 after all.
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Tbh, I'm not convinced about the 3 main wagons, and this is off the wall but I actually think we should lynch among Yuma, Jimmmmm and Faust. All have been off our scumhunting radars. Maybe now I can sleep!
Is this your only reason to lynch us? Because you know, you have been off our scumhunting radars as well...
?? are you confirmed town?
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Man, either he's being REALLY flip or that's a scumslip.
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Faust is right. You can't be a target when you are time traveling, only when you get back. He says this is a passive ability, not a night action he takes that might take effect later. So time travel is completely irrelevant to his role.
Voltaire am I correct that you can't be the target of night actions while you are time travelling? Only actions from your actual night will affect you, some of which might have been done by time travelers?
pps' time traveling is not completely irrelevant.
He will travel to the same night than you, and then use his protection action on you during that night.
But I do not think that offers any adventage still over your own regeneration.
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This is very confusing. But it sounds from this example that actions done in the future do not take effect until that future has become the present. You said the roleblocker blocks the doctor on N3. Whatever actions the doctor takes on N3, whether done in the present or placed from the past, are not affected by the role block until N3 is being resolved. Correct? Correct. But if on N3 the doctor had gone to N4 to do some doctoring, that new action would not be blocked by the N3 roleblock, but the N3 healing placed N1 would still be blocked. Correct.
So in effect, each night you have Step 0, when people "place" actions in the future or past. Then they go home. The actions do not take effect yet. Correct.
So the doctor travels from N1 and places an order to protect VTd on N3. Doctor comes home. This time travel cannot be blocked. N3 hasn't happened yet, so the protection order is recorded but not executed yet. The roleblocker decides to stay in N1.
N2 arrives. During Step 0, the roleblocker visits N3 and places an order to block the doctor on N3. The doctor decides to heal in the present and is not blocked.
Then N3 arrives. Step 0 happens again for those time traveling on N3, but no new actions are added to N3 by time travelers, just the ones placed in N3 on other nights. Non-time travelers place their N3 actions. You now have a collection of night actions. Some were placed in the present, some were placed by travelers from the future or past. These are then resolved in the normal way, except that some roles might get to perform their action more than once. Incorrect - no roles may use their action twice during one night unless explicitly stated, and the roles in this example may not. If you are referring to the fact that the doctor is healing on N3 via his N1 time-travel and healing on N2 via his N3 time travel, then you'd be "Correct" but this is not "get[ing] to perform their action more than once." The doctor stays home again, but is now blocked. Both the previous healing and the healing ordered to be done N3 without time travel do not happen. I've lost you - in the example, the doctor on N3 travels to N2 to heal. This action does happen, but the N3 heal is blocked.
With passive healing, orders cannot be placed in other nights. During Step 0, no night actions are resolved on any targets, b/c night actions other than time travel are all resolved after step 0. So no one can be killed while time traveling, and passive healing would not kick in. If N3 includes a kill order for the doctor, however it was placed, that kill attempt will happen when N3 is the present and not while the doctor was visiting from the past.
Passive healing, if it exists, would resolve during the "Kill" step.
Is that right?
Ish. See above.
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If players have questions about how their roles work, I encourage them to ask me via PM.
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If I get confirmation from Voltaire, I'll be voting pps.
Was Voltaire's confirmation good enough for you to vote? What do you think about my reasoning behind waiting one day to lynch PPS?
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Pingpongsam is a good lynch candidate because there is inconsistencies with his claim.
Claimed enabled, One-shot, time-traveling (passively with the doctor), regenerating doctor (ambiguous, but logically applies to EFHW) protector.
-The claim is conflicting with EFHW claiming to have her own regenerative power.
-When pps first claimed he said he thought 'the Doctor' was refering to Sudgy. Later he claims to time traver with the doctor, but Sudgy did not flip as time traveling. (It has not yet been confirmed if people flips as time traveling if they are, but i think they do).
- He first claimed that regeneration means his power regenerated. he later claims he regenerates aka as if he is bulletproof.
Okay, now I am practically certain Jotheonah is scum.
What I know is that I am a one-shot regenerating protector. And I specifically protect the doctor. What this means is that should a kill attempt be made on the doctor at night I catch the first bullet and live. Any additional attacks on the doctor will succeed in killing him not me. I am notified of the attempted kill. My power regenerates during the day so it is available on the next night. Obviously time-travel antics could mess with this royally but here is what I know for certain:
sudgy died last night. sudgy claims to have targeted walrus. sudgy died and flipped Town doctor so I should believe all of that.
someone attempted to kill sudgy (or "the doctor", I don't know the identity of "the doctor") and that attempt failed because my power prevented it.
so, either sudgy targeted scum and mafia tried to kill him or sudgy targeted Town and 2 hits were made on sudgy (implying an SK). There are some other possibilities but these two are the most likely and Jotheonah's claim of having targeted sudgy to explain away why I might have witnessed him targeting sudgy (when that wasn't the case but he thought it was before this post) suggests he made the kill attempt on sudgy.
caveat: my role description does not identify "the doctor" so I don't know if sudgy strictly qualified as "the doctor". It is possible my power applies to anyone with doctor in their role. hell, it may only apply to EFHW.
Why did Jotheonah never tell us he witnessed sudgy's target action last night? I specifically put the subtle question out there at the start of today in the context of discussion so that a claim wouldn't have to be made to explain that maybe he did what he said he did.
Walrus' vig is already pissed away. A) My regeneration, as I understand it, would protect me from the 1st shot on myself as well. and B) There is a strong possibility I won't be inside of N2 when he fires his shot at me on N2, since I'll be whisked to wherever the doctor is.
The best reason I see not to kill him, is that he might be killed anyway if he was lying about regenerating. but i would not gamble on it.
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If I get confirmation from Voltaire, I'll be voting pps.
Was Voltaire's confirmation good enough for you to vote? What do you think about my reasoning behind waiting one day to lynch PPS?
yes it was enough for me to vote.
Passive healing, if it exists, would resolve during the "Kill" step.
The kill step is resolved after everyone is back in their own time periods. Time travel is irrelevant to his role.
Thank you faust!
vote: pps That's L-1
I'll unvote for the time being to let others weigh in here, but I don't plan to go to the last second before deadline with this one!
I don't agree with 2.7 that we should wait. 1. Too many variables could change the outcome of that vig, including the possibility that it doesn't exist. 2. Leaving him alive gives him a chance to use whatever real power he has during the night, before he dies. 3. We will get so much information from this lynch, which people can then use overnight as they contemplate their night actions.
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If lynching PPS is the plan, it absolutely has to be today. If he's scum, it's better to lynch today, because, well, he's scum. If he's town, and we're going to mislynch him tomorrow anyway.. I would rather get the mislynch out of the way today, because we can at least put the information to use tomorrow.
I'd still rather not lynch PPS at all.
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Just because you think a role is irrelevant doesn't mean it is, EFHW. Imagine the following hypothetical role: "Time-traveling hating vigilante. Each night, you may target one player. If they have time traveled this night, kill them. If they have not, nothing happens." That's affected by PPS's traveling.
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If lynching PPS is the plan, it absolutely has to be today. If he's scum, it's better to lynch today, because, well, he's scum. If he's town, and we're going to mislynch him tomorrow anyway.. I would rather get the mislynch out of the way today, because we can at least put the information to use tomorrow.
I'd still rather not lynch PPS at all.
This latest information doesn't affect your views at all?
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If lynching PPS is the plan, it absolutely has to be today. If he's scum, it's better to lynch today, because, well, he's scum. If he's town, and we're going to mislynch him tomorrow anyway.. I would rather get the mislynch out of the way today, because we can at least put the information to use tomorrow.
I'd still rather not lynch PPS at all.
This latest information doesn't affect your views at all?
What, the bit about his time-traveling being irrelevant? I don't think so, no. I think there are roles that would make it relevant.
And if it's on the surface irrelevant, which it does seem to be.. why claim it?
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Maybe I'm just overthinking, though. Xeiron's last post is pretty good... if he time travels with the doctor.. why was he at all confused about Sudgy possibly being the doctor, when Sudgy did not flip as a time traveler? That is odd.
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Just because you think a role is irrelevant doesn't mean it is, EFHW. Imagine the following hypothetical role: "Time-traveling hating vigilante. Each night, you may target one player. If they have time traveled this night, kill them. If they have not, nothing happens." That's affected by PPS's traveling.
I don't find that persuasive. Hopping around time with the Doctor even though he won't be needed when away from the present doesn't make sense. There was no reason to put it in there. I don't think Voltaire would give someone a role just to make them vulnerable to a vig.
Now, there is the possibility that Voltaire made a mistake. But I don't think we can make decisions based on that possibility unless we hear it from Voltaire.
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Here, catching up. I tried last night, but no forums.
Agree we need a lynch today. Preferences haven't changed.
Only thought on the latest PPS claim discrepancy. Playing devils advocate, is it possible PPS is describing that his role protects the Doctor on whatever night they traveled to? So, if the doc would die on N5, PPS protects him on N5?
Sounds unlikely, but Volt's explanation left possible the kill on different nights mechanic. Like, Walrus could be scum that cannot kill in the present, only the future. So he can shoot at N4 and hope the target shows up there to receive the bullet. Ever see Looper? Like that.
A stretch, and unlikely. But given all the ridiculous (and probably fake) claims around, who knows?
Still want to lunch walrus/PPS.
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And if it's on the surface irrelevant, which it does seem to be.. why claim it?
Because it makes a good story. pps being "whisked away," as he put it, by the Doctor to always be by my/sudgy's side is a great image.
If he was town and had some other role for time travel not pertaining to protecting me/sudgy , he probably would not have claimed it.
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Here, catching up. I tried last night, but no forums.
Agree we need a lynch today. Preferences haven't changed.
Only thought on the latest PPS claim discrepancy. Playing devils advocate, is it possible PPS is describing that his role protects the Doctor on whatever night they traveled to? So, if the doc would die on N5, PPS protects him on N5?
Sounds unlikely, but Volt's explanation left possible the kill on different nights mechanic. Like, Walrus could be scum that cannot kill in the present, only the future. So he can shoot at N4 and hope the target shows up there to receive the bullet. Ever see Looper? Like that.
A stretch, and unlikely. But given all the ridiculous (and probably fake) claims around, who knows?
Still want to lunch walrus/PPS.
It doesn't work like that. If Walrus went to shoot someone in N4, that shooting would not take place until after the Step 0 for N4. Everyone would be back in their home time periods. You can't be targeted while you are time-traveling.
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Maybe I'm just overthinking, though. Xeiron's last post is pretty good... if he time travels with the doctor.. why was he at all confused about Sudgy possibly being the doctor, when Sudgy did not flip as a time traveler? That is odd.
it is.
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It doesn't work like that. If Walrus went to shoot someone in N4, that shooting would not take place until after the Step 0 for N4. Everyone would be back in their home time periods. You can't be targeted while you are time-traveling.
I know. I was hoping PPS would just jump on the viable (but wrong) scenario I painted for him. Oh well.
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It doesn't work like that. If Walrus went to shoot someone in N4, that shooting would not take place until after the Step 0 for N4. Everyone would be back in their home time periods. You can't be targeted while you are time-traveling.
I know. I was hoping PPS would just jump on the viable (but wrong) scenario I painted for him. Oh well.
You'll think of something else.
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Gonna get some reads down in case I'm not around tomorrow. I'd suggest everyone do this.
I think we should start thinking about whether there's other scum out there besides (Walrus/PPS*).
I can see a 3-man team of Arch/Walrus/PPS, or at most two 2-man teams of Arch-X and Walrus-PPS/Arch-PPS and Walrus-X. I have not ruled out the possibility of some sort of SK, or other third-party, either.
Zero night kills last night makes sense with all the bulletproof claims going around and just sudgy dying from targeting Walrus.
I think Walrus probably didn't lie too much about his role. I mean, break it down: He claims to be a Roleblocker and Vigilante. That's basically a player who can block a player from taking a night action as well as kill someone at night. You know what role that sounds like? Mafia Roleblocker.
PPS is caught scum, from what I can see. I appreciate nkirbit attempting to reason out a narrative here, but PPS is just scrambling, and his claim directly conflicts with the IC's role, who we know is not lying.
Mafia Busdriver + Mafia Roleblocker + PPS is definitely a believable team, especially given that I believe both of them are lying about their "town" roles, so what sounds so far like OP town is actually not so OP. I think the aftermath of N2 will be more telling, especially number of kills (if any) and who scum decides to kill.
(* Walrus/PPS are easily the most likely scum, for the many reasons laid out by various people all day. You may disagree with this pair, and that's fine, but I think it's helpful and (contrary to what yuma will say) not too early to start trying to ferret out remaining scum, as I feel we are in fantastic shape as a town.)
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Tbh, I'm not convinced about the 3 main wagons, and this is off the wall but I actually think we should lynch among Yuma, Jimmmmm and Faust. All have been off our scumhunting radars. Maybe now I can sleep!
Is this your only reason to lynch us? Because you know, you have been off our scumhunting radars as well...
?? are you confirmed town?
All I wanted to say is, just the fact that someone is off scumhunting radars isn't much of case. Maybe there are good reasons for being off the radar. Sorry if this came out wrong, I guess I was a little frustrated that you would open up a whole new lynch pool when we have already caught scum (or at least I think we have).
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Vote Count 2.12[/size]
jotheonah (1): pingpongsam
Walrus (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
xeiron (2): yuma, 2.71828.....
pingpongsam (4): jotheonah, faust, Walrus, xeiron
Not voting (2): EFHW, nkirbit
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at 7 PM forum time
This is still currently correct. We have ~2 hours.
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Has Jimmmmm posted recently? I think scum would be trying hard not to be around at this point to incriminate themselves.
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Re: Jimmmmm's Walrus post. I was looking for something more neutral. It's not a scumtell or anything that you didn't do it, it's just there is less information to help us. I see how reread and case are sometimes used interchangeably, and I'll be more specific next time.
I still don't understand this. I've been struggling to get into this game, admittedly through entirely my own fault, and when I finally make a reasonable effort you chide me for... having an opinion. I mean, if all you wanted was someone to copy-paste all of his posts into one big post then anyone could have done that. That doesn't help me catch up and it certainly doesn't help anyone else evaluate me. If you wanted me to comment on them without actually offering an opinion, well to me that seems much less helpful.
Of course, this is a fairly pointless argument.
I will re-read e and/or pps when I have time and offer my opinions.
Jimmmmm's last post, 5 pages ago.
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At this point it really looks like a PPS lynch, but I do want to see Nkirbit place a vote before the lynch. EFHW does not need to vote anywhere because he is the IC, but even if Nkirbit disagrees with a PPS lynch, he should at least vote somewhere.
And Jimmmmm has been pretty absent this game
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Vote: 2.7
Happy enough?
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Vote: 2.7
Happy enough?
yeah
vote: PPS
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As ashersky suggested, I'm putting down some reads before I leave for today.
Walrus does not come across as all that scummy to me. I get that sudgy's death incriminates him. If pps flips scum, as I think he will, we should reconsider him, because in that case his claim to have targeted pps may have been a try to save him. Should pps against all odds flip town, that would make Walrus more likely town.
yuma is interesting. In case of scum!pps, I see him more likely to be town, because pps suggested a policy lynch of Galzria/yuma D1, and would scum do that to their partner? I still read him scummy though.
xeiron is hard to read for me, but seems the same as in RMM11. I lean slight town.
nkirbit is a strong town read, ashersky as well.
Jimmmmm is on the scummier side for basically ignoring the pps situation and general lurkiness.
jotheonah... I guess if pps flips scum, we can wait for him to confirm his claim N3. I also don't think scum would bus that heavily after losing one of their own D1. So town read, based on the assumption that pps is scum.
Anyone else? chairs... If he comes back to life, I guess he should be lynched. Has been hardly involved lately despite being excited to be a semi-IC earlier.
Oh, and there's e... I really don't know. Can't remember much about him. Should be reread D3 definitely.
PPE: 6
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My reads if I am not around tomorrow.
Suppose pps flips scum.
If he do not have regeneration in his role name, his partner is in all likelyhood do. Ashersky is my tip.
If he actually are regenerating scum, Ashersky would still be my top scumread, but not as clearly.
If pps flips town, Walrus seem worse again. I stopped pushing Walrus when i stopped believing pingpongsam and his claim to have stopped a nightkill. If he spoke the truth, sudgy most likely died by targeting walrus.
Jotheonah as an alternative to lynching Walrus, as we know he targeted Sudgy, and Sudgy was killed if walrus is town.
Ashersky could be a partner to both of them. He really is my top scumread.
Yuma could be a partner to Walrus, but I dont see it coming. I think walrus is SK or town.
I have only townreads outside of those four.
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Tbh, I'm not convinced about the 3 main wagons, and this is off the wall but I actually think we should lynch among Yuma, Jimmmmm and Faust. All have been off our scumhunting radars. Maybe now I can sleep!
Is this your only reason to lynch us? Because you know, you have been off our scumhunting radars as well...
?? are you confirmed town?
All I wanted to say is, just the fact that someone is off scumhunting radars isn't much of case. Maybe there are good reasons for being off the radar. Sorry if this came out wrong, I guess I was a little frustrated that you would open up a whole new lynch pool when we have already caught scum (or at least I think we have).
Off radar is very weak, I agree. I would have done more today if it had been necessary. But it certainly shook things up in a very productive way. Had you had that idea about pps's time travel earlier?
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is no one considering nkirbit as a possible pps partner if pps is scum?
I know scum doesn't usually defend their partner so much, but if they're already losing ... ploy of desperation?
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so ... EFHW, shall we give pps a chance for last words and then hammer?
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Let's give this until 6, so people have a chance to post reads. Then I will hammer - ok with you ashersky?
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is no one considering nkirbit as a possible pps partner if pps is scum?
I know scum doesn't usually defend their partner so much, but if they're already losing ... ploy of desperation?
Considered it. Seems too risky. Keeping it in mind.
Intent to hammer.
PPE -- Or EFHW if she prefers.
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is no one considering nkirbit as a possible pps partner if pps is scum?
I know scum doesn't usually defend their partner so much, but if they're already losing ... ploy of desperation?
Considered it. Seems too risky. Keeping it in mind.
Intent to hammer.
PPE -- Or EFHW if she prefers.
Thanks. I know you like to do it.
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Just say when. I doubt scum PPS says anything the rest of the day, which isn't that long anyway.
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is no one considering nkirbit as a possible pps partner if pps is scum?
I know scum doesn't usually defend their partner so much, but if they're already losing ... ploy of desperation?
put him in your reads list.
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Just say when. I doubt scum PPS says anything the rest of the day, which isn't that long anyway.
Vote: pingpongsam
You fools....
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off the top of my head reads:
Nkirbit - town. Has been consistent and logical all game. Although voting me doesn't really fit into that category.
Faust - Is posting some pretty scummy stuff. His usual town self
Ashersky - I believe the enabler. Unsure alignment. If a bunch of town roles turn out enabled, scum. If a bunch of scum roles turn out enabled, town. I also think multiple enablers might be a thing
Yuma - Lean town. The cases brought against him have been pretty weak in my opinion.
Walrus - Lean town. We will see after the PPS flip if I stay there
xeiron - lean scum
Joth - lean scum
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off the top of my head reads:
Nkirbit - town. Has been consistent and logical all game. Although voting me doesn't really fit into that category.
Faust - Is posting some pretty scummy stuff. His usual town self
Ashersky - I believe the enabler. Unsure alignment. If a bunch of town roles turn out enabled, scum. If a bunch of scum roles turn out enabled, town. I also think multiple enablers might be a thing
Yuma - Lean town. The cases brought against him have been pretty weak in my opinion.
Walrus - Lean town. We will see after the PPS flip if I stay there
xeiron - lean scum
Joth - lean scum
And Jimmmm - scum? who knows. He hasn't done anything.
and derphammer
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Just say when. I doubt scum PPS says anything the rest of the day, which isn't that long anyway.
Vote: pingpongsam
You fools....
Stolen! Scum.
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and derphammer
No, it was intentional.
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Just say when. I doubt scum PPS says anything the rest of the day, which isn't that long anyway.
Vote: pingpongsam
You fools....
I wanted to let you die during the night. But even if you are town playing against your wincon here, you have to admit we needed a lynch
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and derphammer
No, it was intentional.
He's clearly caught and given up. This might be an instance where we don't want to talk anymore so as to not give more information to remaining scum.
That occured in CLUE maybe?
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I've admitted all along my lynch was going to be informative which is why I talked you guys out of the walrus vig possibility.
You want information well, that's the best I can do since Town apparently doesn't know it's ass from a hole in the ground.
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I don't know if I have time to do a robust reads list -- still at work and just stealing time really.
Also, I doubt I get NK'd tonight. I'm too great a lynch target tomorrow and scum has no reason to fear my lame power.
I am still most wary of ashersky, Walrus, and yuma, in that order.
nkirbit I don't like. His opposition to the PPS lynch seemed like due diligence at first and more and more like stubborn intransigence as the PPS lynch became more and more obvious.
If I had to look for scum outside of those four, I'd look to Captain Jimmmmm Lurkypants. Even when he has posted, he's been a little too eager to please.
Who else does that leave? EFHW is town, obv. faust and 2.7 are null-to-town reads for me although I find faust a little scummier than 2.7. I'd have to re-read both of them a lot before I'd be comfortable voting for them.
To me though, the flip and the NK (if any) will probably necessitate a re-evaluation of everything and everyone.
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Caught? Wow, you are fools....
If I am going to get lynched by a pack of scum and some townies who can't read then I'll take the pleasure of the hammer myself.
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Also, I doubt I get NK'd tonight. I'm too great a lynch target tomorrow and scum has no reason to fear my lame power.
That's scum talk right there. Excuses for why you survive the night ahead of time?
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I'm a little insulted by how bad you guys think I am at playing as scum. eek.
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I'm a little insulted by how bad you guys think I am at playing as scum. eek.
It's been awhile, you know. You could be rusty. And you don't know a lot of these new folks.
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I think PPS is trolling, for what it's worth. Maybe I'm just in denial.
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I am here, tried to post this morning and couldn't.
Internet was down at work, so I couldn't follow along. Someone want to catch me up as I see we are still up and running (thanks for the extension volt!
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I am here, tried to post this morning and couldn't.
Internet was down at work, so I couldn't follow along. Someone want to catch me up as I see we are still up and running (thanks for the extension volt!
well, not really anymore
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I am here, tried to post this morning and couldn't.
Internet was down at work, so I couldn't follow along. Someone want to catch me up as I see we are still up and running (thanks for the extension volt!
Yeah, PPS self-hammered.
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I self-hammered for:
A) The honor that is seppuku (my lynch was a foregone conclusion don't act like it wasn't)
B) I see scum prepping up the D3 scene by conveying what should be happening tonight.
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I self-hammered for:
A) The honor that is seppuku (my lynch was a foregone conclusion don't act like it wasn't)
B) I see scum prepping up the D3 scene by conveying what should be happening tonight.
so you think Joth is scum for saying he will live tonight?
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You can always come pull me out of the grave Mr. time traveling doctor and I'll be there to protect you once again...
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I self-hammered for:
A) The honor that is seppuku (my lynch was a foregone conclusion don't act like it wasn't)
B) I see scum prepping up the D3 scene by conveying what should be happening tonight.
so you think Joth is scum for saying he will live tonight?
Putting words into someone else's mouth much?
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I self-hammered for:
A) The honor that is seppuku (my lynch was a foregone conclusion don't act like it wasn't)
B) I see scum prepping up the D3 scene by conveying what should be happening tonight.
Oh... well. I hate self hammers so any pity I had for you is now out the door. But I don't think you were the right lynch today, so at least you can have some "honor" in that I suppose.
I still think mass claiming tomorrow is the way to go here, but I guess some of that depends on what happens with the flip(s)
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You can always come pull me out of the grave Mr. time traveling doctor and I'll be there to protect you once again...
not true. lynches are irrevocable
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I self-hammered for:
A) The honor that is seppuku (my lynch was a foregone conclusion don't act like it wasn't)
B) I see scum prepping up the D3 scene by conveying what should be happening tonight.
so you think Joth is scum for saying he will live tonight?
Putting words into someone else's mouth much?
My favorite thing to do. This, however, was a question as to whether he thought Joth's post fit into his category B
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You can always come pull me out of the grave Mr. time traveling doctor and I'll be there to protect you once again...
not true. lynches are irrevocable
I forgot the end sarcasm tag.
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If you guys haven't figured out yet that Jotheonah is scum then it really doesn't matter who you lynch.
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seriously though. I don't think I'll die because I have a lot of suspicion on me and I don't have a scary power. Do you guys deny any of that is true? Is there some reason I shouldn't be saying it? Scum!me would not need to explain surviving the night ... because there's no reason I would expect not to. As a case, this makes 0 sense to me and really just makes ashersky seem scummier. (And he didn't need the help)
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I'm gone for the day, so enjoy the twilight. :D
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seriously though. I don't think I'll die because I have a lot of suspicion on me and I don't have a scary power. Do you guys deny any of that is true? Is there some reason I shouldn't be saying it? Scum!me would not need to explain surviving the night ... because there's no reason I would expect not to. As a case, this makes 0 sense to me and really just makes ashersky seem scummier. (And he didn't need the help)
Where's all the ashersky hate coming from all of a sudden? The only person I've seen actually try to tunnel me all day was xeiron, who had some oddly built case that I couldn't make sense of.
Seems like you are just trying to line up mislynches now. I've yet to see anything as far as a case against me other than "maybe he's scum enabling town" which is wrong but at least a viable line of thinking. Town enabling scum makes more sense, and could be a reason to mislynch me on purpose for town, I guess.
But the "ashersky is scummy" line of thinking hasn't been fleshed out by anyone. Other than the usual ashersky is ashersky stuff, I haven't even seen anything to respond to.
You, on the other hand, seem to be making waves about yourself to use the "why would I do this as scum" excuse over and over.
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bwuh I made a whole big case against you! did you not read it? your claim is scummy because it makes us want to keep you around to enable strong powers. You barely interacted with Archetype yesterday in exactly the way that I would expect scum buddies to barely interact. I layed it all out.
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I'm gone for the day, so enjoy the twilight. :D
lynchproof?
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Ash is something of a question mark; the re-read is reminding me what I didn't like about his day 1 claim. Also Arch votes for xeiron for being ash's partner but doesn't actually vote for ash, here:
I like nothing about Ash's claim. If you're going to claim D1, you'd better have a cogent, well-argued case for it being pro-town. He doesn't.
I would be ok with lynching him D1, but I also see the case for waiting a bit.
If he is scum, xeiron is his partner. He did the chainsaw thingy. I think, might be wrong on the lingo, it's been a while, but he started the Archetype wagon to distract from my ashersky vote.
Those are the lynches I support right now.
I'll vote:xeiron. Same reasons as Jo, mainly. He was quick to accuse. If ash is scum, xeiron would not be the most likely partner. His defense of ash was a little too obvious.
Townreads: 2.7, jotheonah
Scummy: xeiron, ashersky
Null: everyone else
This also looks good on me and 2.7 I think. Scum would likely NOT list partners as town reads.
On the other hand, 2.7 also calls Archetype obvtown later in the day.
Back to ash, he votes sudgy for sudgy's claim before anybody else does. Nkirbit jumps on next.
Pingpongsam becomes critical of votes on Archetype VERY early on.
So, instead of easy to manipulate RVS we have real discussion over an early claim which I chalk up to being great D1 play.
Most of the shape of the game at this point makes sense to me. faust's vote on Archetype does not. I don't see the reasoning, it's not that I wouldn't understand it, I simply don't see it. It looks like a sheep off of Jimmmmm's vote. Now Jimmmmm's reasoning I see but do not grasp. I'd like to hear some description of why Town would never implicate a D1 claim such as ashersky's as being scummy.
Then I vote xeiron for starting the Archetype wagon (yes, I was convinced Arch was town, or at least unconvinced he was scum, I admit that). PPS jumps right on board interrogating xeiron about the Arch wagon.
It's hard to classify the 4th, 5th and 6th votes on a wagon as RVS.
2.718 and EFHW RVS'd. I'm still not so sure Jimmmmm was RVS as the 3rd vote in. Your 4th vote was just ambiguous enough to pass as RVS while still getting you in early in case a wagon built which it did and on which you have stayed. If it was so RVS of you why are you still on there?
And here's pps on Arch in a long reads post:
Archetype caught quite a lot of early heat for relatively innocuous behavior. Initially this looked to be scum driven but as the pressure on him has alleviated it looks more like RVS gone awry. As to reading him Town/scum well, that he goes V/LA at such a crucial point is difficult for me. If pressed to choose between Arch/ash for the 1 day pass I'd for sure give it to Arch. slight town read here.
All this is a little too obvious -- I would expect subtler play from scum!pps regarding a partner.
Here Walrus makes a very flimsy case against sudgy, whom we now know was town:
I think I believe the stump!claim, just because it's so ridiculous it seems like it's gotta be true. I mean why would you claim that as scum? And it will be verified by tomorrow apparently, so we can check experimentally.
Just did a quick reread, and the one who jumps out as scummiest to me is vote: sudgy. First of all, that boomtown Archetype wagon seemed to me like it possibly had scum on it. Second of all, every post this game sudgy has been reminding us about when and when he's not joking. Maybe he does that normally to some extent. But it just seems very forced here: HAHA I'm voting for the IC...no HAHA don't vote for me it was just a joke...all my other posts were jokes but not this one HAHA!
I'll post reads on other folks later.
And here's a Walrus reads post on Archetype:
Archetype: I have a tough time reading this guy, and apparently he will post more starting soon. Obviously the most notable thing is the wagon that ran up on him. I admit that when I first saw his "If ash doesn't get killed N1 -> we can lynch him!" post, I too thought that it looked pretty scummy. But then that "jokey" wagon ran up on him frighteningly fast, and while I believe most of that wagon is jokey, I do think it's likely there's scum on there. So I end up on null-to-scummy on Arch.
Coming out of this re-read, my top scum reads are ash, Walrus, and, surprisingly, pps; my top town reads are Jimmmmm and xeiron. Other people fall in the middle or I'm very unsure on, like 2.7 or nkirbit. But the most exciting and hopefully telling part of the re-read is still ahead of me.
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bwuh I made a whole big case against you! did you not read it? your claim is scummy because it makes us want to keep you around to enable strong powers. You barely interacted with Archetype yesterday in exactly the way that I would expect scum buddies to barely interact. I layed it all out.
My claim is scummy, and yet you claim a variant of a Rolecop, which is a straight scum role.
I barely interacted with Archetype yesterday, and yet how many posts do you have interacting with him?
PPE -- you linked the mega post.
No, I don't really read multi-quote posts like yours, because they are generally confusing on purpose and used to make the poster look townier for taking the time to multi-quote.
The lines that stick out there?
"This also looks good on me and 2.7 I think. Scum would likely NOT list partners as town reads."
That's you giving yourself towncred in a post that's supposed to be an ashersky re-read but using Archetype quotes. All kinds of wrong there.
In fact, you don't quote me ONCE in that entire post.
The only other time you mention me is pointing out how I voted sudgy first for his claim, which was the right call in my opinion, and at the very least not scummy.
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So no, I did not read your "bwuh" big case on me, whatever "bwuh" means. Because there is no case on me. The quote you provided isn't even about me.
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What I do see you doing in that quoted post is making a too big list of partners for Arch. Really? a 4-man scum team in a game this size? I mean, I know you overdid it with scum in DS9, but I think we all learned from that.
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Well here I am, but...oh. OK. pps didn't really strike me as the self-hammering type. I find such an action to be completely without honor.
I still didn't have time for proper rereads. Work is 10x busier than I expected. But of course I'll be reviewing my options carefully before I submit my next night action. And honestly I'd rather wait until pps's flip before I start speculating, because who knows -- Arch was pretty coy about it in twilight when we caught him. There's a difference between being coy and a self-hammer, but still...
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I don't even know where to start!
Not reading things, that's definitely pro-town behavior, so I got to give you points there.
What I did was I listed possible partners. I did not mean to imply that every person who was a possible partner was one. What I was doing there was looking at everyone's interactions with confirmed scum Archetype. And yours were non-existent ACCEPT for the part where he accused you of being scum but didn't actually vote for you.
Ok, re-reading that, my thoughts were more scattered than I remembered and maybe I didn't articulate the case well. But I absolutely do have a real case against you. ANd I am articulating it now.
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Not reading things, that's definitely pro-town behavior, so I got to give you points there.
(that's sarcasm by the way)
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I don't even know where to start!
Not reading things, that's definitely pro-town behavior, so I got to give you points there.
What I did was I listed possible partners. I did not mean to imply that every person who was a possible partner was one. What I was doing there was looking at everyone's interactions with confirmed scum Archetype. And yours were non-existent ACCEPT for the part where he accused you of being scum but didn't actually vote for you.
Ok, re-reading that, my thoughts were more scattered than I remembered and maybe I didn't articulate the case well. But I absolutely do have a real case against you. ANd I am articulating it now.
You were around when it was determined that pro-town behavior =/= town players.
At least you admit/agree that your post/case was not well articulated. At least, not against me. I thought it was more about PPS (and clearing yourself and 2.7) than anything else.
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Well here I am, but...oh. OK. pps didn't really strike me as the self-hammering type. I find such an action to be completely without honor.
You clearly don't like samurai.
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If he is town, then he should have defended himself to the end. Remember when Voltaire got me to switch at the very last minute, and he was town? That wasn't fun, and both wagons were on town, but still. I get him being upset at being lynched. It really does suck, and maybe we weren't being very thoughtful about that. But please no one else lie as town! It's gone wrong so many, many times.
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Has Jimmmmm posted recently? I think scum would be trying hard not to be around at this point to incriminate themselves.
The site was down when I went to bed last night, and I've only just come online now.
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I see we're in Twilight... hang on.
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The first letter of my flavour name) who I will target Tonight.
A) faust
B) ashersky
C) Walrus
D) pps
E) faust
F) jotheonah
G) xeiron
H) yuma
I) ashersky
J) Walrus
K) jotheonah
L) pps
M) Walrus
N) chairs
O) jotheonah
P) e
Q) pps
R) e
S) e
T) chairs
U) xeiron
V) Walrus
W) pps
X) yuma
Y) e
Z) xeiron
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You shouldn't try targeting me, I'm dead.
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Well, stumped - but basically the same.
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You shouldn't try targeting me, I'm dead.
Maybe I have a reason to target. Maybe I don't.
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to target you*
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Deadline has come and gone...no mod.
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Jimmmmm, let's hope scum can't break your code overnight.
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Jimmmmm, let's hope scum can't break your code overnight.
No code. 25 of them were chosen using random.org. If they know my flavour name then okay, but that's probably unlikely.
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Jimmmmm, let's hope scum can't break your code overnight.
No code. 25 of them were chosen using random.org. If they know my flavour name then okay, but that's probably unlikely.
Oh, that's good then. Even if they have a flavor cop, they wouldn't get a result until day break, so that'd be too late.
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THREAD LOCKED
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Vote Count 2.Final
Walrus (2): ashersky, Jimmmmm
xeiron (1): yuma
pingpongsam (6): jotheonah, faust, Walrus, xeiron, 2.71828....., pingpongsam
2.71828..... (1): nkirbit
Not voting (1): EFHW
With 11 alive, it took 6 to lynch.
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<flavor later, maybe never>
pingpongsam was the Master, the mafia-aligned enabled Time Traveling ninja Roleblocker.
Night 2 will end on January 8 @ 7 PM. I am ending the difference between night action submission and night end - they are now the same. A reminder that all players must check in.
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I apologize for the late start. The forums were down last night during my time online.
Good morning! We were most impressed by your actions yesterday - again. I trust you all slept soundly, since it seems that you all calmed down a bit compared to last night. I'm not saying we mind the peace and quiet, but pick up the pace a bit, please? You wouldn't believe the energy it takes to keep this place running and we're not looking forward to the bill.
D3 start - thread UNLOCKED!
Vote Count 3.0
Not voting (10): ashersky, EFHW, faust, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, nkirbit, Walrus, xeiron, yuma, 2.71828.....
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends on Thursday, January 16 at 11 AM forum time
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So... mass claim?
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I support massclaim.
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I support massclaim.
cool, obvioulsy lets wait for ehfw to give the all clear and, if she decides it is a good idea, to coordinate the claiming... nobody just start claiming stuff because you feel like it.
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If we massclaim, we cannot confirm jotheonah's claim. But this is the only thing speaking against it, and it might be worth it.
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So chairs is still stumpy then.
And another scum lynched.
Nice
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and i have no problem with a mass claim
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I tried to reread everthing tonight with special focus on pps/Archetype interactions. This is what I got:
D1 start
#80 ashersky claims Enabler.
#91 pingpongsam supports ashersky's claim
#98 Archetype votes ashersky for his claim
#102 Jimmmmm votes Archetype for his attack on ashersky
#121 faust votes Archetype
#132 pingpongsam calls faust's vote pro-town play
#138 jotheonah says pingpongsam has raised his scum flags
#157 Jimmmm agrees that pingpongsam is scummy
#166 jotheonah says ashersky's play does not make sense as town play
#169 xeiron votes Archetype for lining up lynches
#171 sudgy votes Archetype
#175 e moves his RVS vote off Archetype
#185 jotheonah votes xeiron
#188 pingpongsam searches for scum on the Archetype wagon; defends e
#194 jotheonah says the Archetype wagon has scum written all over it
#195 e does not support an ashersky lynch D1
#196 jotheonah wants to lynch ashersky or xeiron
#197 Archetype sheeps jotheonah and votes xeiron; has e and jotheonah as town reads, xeiron and ashersky as scum reads.
#198 sudgy votes xeiron
#199 Walrus votes sudgy
#218 chairs votes xeiron
#228 xeiron leans town on ashersky
#232 jotheonah says the Archetype wagon looks less scummy on reread
#251 Walrus thinks nkirbit is the scummiest player; votes nkirbit
#254 nkirbit votes Walrus
#261 jotheonah votes nkirbit
#262 e has a town read on Archetype
#264 pingpongsam has a slight town read on Archetype, gets a town vibe from e, and votes sudgy
#265 faust votes sudgy
#266 chairs says sudgy reminds him of SK!sudgy, votes sudgy
#269 sudgy partially claims
#278 ashersky does not like sudgy's claim
#279 xeiron proposes the starting letter plan for sudgy
#287 ashersky votes sudgy
#291 nkirbit does not like sudgy's claim; votes sudgy
#306 Jimmmmm does not see a good reason for lynching sudgy
#325 pingpongsam FOSes chairs
#331 faust votes Archetype
#336 Archetype believes sudgy's claim, keeps his votes on xeiron
#337 Archetype reads: town: chairs, sudgy, Walrus, e; scum: Jimmmmm, xeiron, ashersky; null: faust, pingpongsam, nkirbit, jotheonah
#338 e finds faust, chairs and Walrus scummy
#347 ashersky has a town read on Galzria/yuma, scum reads on sudgy and Walrus
#350 Walrus votes sudgy
#351 pingpongsam proposes a Galzria/yuma policy lynch
#354 chairs votes Galzria/yuma
#359 faust votes Walrus
#383 pingpongsam says he has gotten nothing but town off e
#385 jotheonah sheeps faust; votes Walrus
#389 Archetype does not want to lynch e, maybe wants to lynch Walrus
#390 Walrus votes jotheonah
#401 Archetype is willing to lynch faust, xeiron, ashersky, Galzria/yuma
#418 xeiron votes ashersky
#424 nkiribt votes Walrus
#425 ashersky votes Walrus
#432 Walrus claims partially, votes Archetype
#435 xeiron votes Walrus
#436 pingpongsam votes Walrus (L-2)
#438 Jimmmm supports a Walrus lynch, doesn't vote yet
#439 Walrus claims some more
#444 Archetype votes Walrus (L-1)
#445 Archetype unvotes
#449 Archetype votes Walrus again (L-1)
#451 pingpongsam says yuma has a D1 pass
#454 xeiron votes ashersky
#455 faust votes Archetype (Walrus back to L-2)
#456 nkirbit votes Archetype
#457 Archetype votes xeiron
#464 xeiron is back to voting Walrus
#469 Archetype votes Walrus again
#471 e does not like a Walrus lynch
#484 nkirbit has town reads on faust and e, scum read on jotheonah
#487 jotheonah votes nkirbit
#490 yuma votes Jimmmm
#496 pingpongsam thinks there is merit to a no-lynch
#502 yuma votes no lynch
#503 sudgy votes Archetype
#517 chairs votes no lynch
#527 yuma votes jotheonah
#529 nkirbit is against no lynch
#530 e votes Archetype (L-2)
#534 jotheonah votes Archetype (L-1)
#535 xeiron votes Archetype (derphammer)
D2 starts
#589 nkirbit votes jotheonah
#602 yuma sheeps nkirbit, votes jotheonah
#605 nkirbit gives town points to Walrus and xeiron
#606 e believes Walrus
#612 ashersky votes Walrus because of sudgy's death
#618 nkirbit can't believe a Archetype-Walrus scumteam
#626 chairs thinks we should votes Walrus
#645 jotheonah has things to share
#647 jotheonah says he has no useful information
#651 jotheonah votes Walrus
#666 jotheonah is sure that yuma is scum
#681 e votes jotheonah
#688 pingpongsam askes if someone watched sudgy
#695 Walrus votes ashersky
#703 nkirbit has town reads on Walrus, faust, yuma, e, scum read only on jotheonah
#723 faust votes yuma
#752 chairs full-claims
#765 jotheonah votes xeiron
#773 jotheonah lists ashersky, Walrus, yuma, pingpongsam as good lynches
#784 faust votes pingpongsam
#786 jotheonah votes pingpongsam
#788 pingpongsam votes jotheonah (L-2)
#798 jotheonah partially claims
#801 pingpongsam's fake-claim
#805 jotheonah claims
#834 faust believes pingpongsam, votes yuma
#838 xeiron states Walrus, yuma, jotheonah, ashersky as scum reads, pingpongsam as town read
#841 xeiron votes ashersky
#878 jotheonah votes ashersky
#884 xeiron votes Walrus
#906 ashersky believes pingpongsam
#912 e votes xeiron
#924 Walrus claims regeneration
#939 yuma votes xeiron
#947 nkirbit votes xeiron
#971 e votes pingpongsam
#976 nkirbit votes pingpongsam
#987 jotheonah votes pingpongsam
#989 faust votes pingpongsam (L-2)
#999 nkirbit unvotes
#1002 Walrus claims having vigged pingpongsam
#1003 e unvotes
#1032 nkirbit is back to voting pingpongsam
#1036 yuma votes xeiron
#1057 Jimmmm rereads and votes Walrus
#1067 Walrus votes pingpongsam
#1091 xeiron votes pingpongsam (L-2)
#1110 e votes xeiron
#1195 e votes pingpongsam (L-1)
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I have some kind of a result that I will claim at EFHW's request.
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Bolded things are interesting. Some conclusions:
Archetype and pingpongsam put Walrus at L-2 resp. L-1 D1. I doubt that scum would do that to their partner.
pingpongsam proposing a Galzria/yuma policy lynch makes me think they are not partners.
pingpongsam, a Ninja role, asked D2 if someone watched sudgy. This maybe means that he ninja-killed sudgy.
On reread, xeiron and Jimmmmm seem to have acted the scummiest towards Archetype/pingpongsam. e is still possible. And putting that policy lynch thing aside, I can also imagine yuma.
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I see town working on a post like this
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Bolded things are interesting. Some conclusions:
Archetype and pingpongsam put Walrus at L-2 resp. L-1 D1. I doubt that scum would do that to their partner.
pingpongsam proposing a Galzria/yuma policy lynch makes me think they are not partners.
pingpongsam, a Ninja role, asked D2 if someone watched sudgy. This maybe means that he ninja-killed sudgy.
On reread, xeiron and Jimmmmm seem to have acted the scummiest towards Archetype/pingpongsam. e is still possible. And putting that policy lynch thing aside, I can also imagine yuma.
Good post.
Do not forget Ashersky. I am getting more certain he is scum.
He pushed Walrus D2 after pingpongsam ninjakilled Sudgy (At least i think you are right with that theory).
And then we have his claim of working together with pingpongsam so that both of them protected EFHW.
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No deaths! We're in great shape. I think some claiming could help us make the most of N3.
First, I want Walrus to tell us what he did last night.
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Hey guys! I will probably have time at work to write more later. But for now I will tell you that I returned to N1 and roleblocked pps. Seemed like the most reasonable thing to do--with two scum down my odds of hitting another one right now are quite low I think. So maybe I could revive sudgy and/or prevent pps from roleblocking someone cool. Doesn't seem to have been effective, unfortunately.
I am also down for a mass-claim.
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No deaths! We're in great shape. I think some claiming could help us make the most of N3.
First, I want Walrus to tell us what he did last night.
I'm down with claiming.
No deaths now doesn't necessarily mean scum didn't/were prevented from killing last night.. Could be a kill coming on a future night.
Now, thinking about n1 results... Do we have anyone claiming to have stopped a kill anymore? Or is sudgy being nked by ninja pps a likely result, especially since he asked about trackers?
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Well if pps did kill sudgy N1, then something must have prevented me from blocking him, or somebody else shot him too, or something.
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or sudgy died from targeting Walrus.
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I left out that possibility because it's obviously wrong, from my perspective. That's part of the reason I wanted to try to resurrect sudgy, so he might clear my good name!
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So the way I see it, with two scum down, we're either looking for one more scum, one more scum and an SK, or (if this is multiball) another whole team.
But the lack of nightkills (which is crazy, btw) seems to make multiball very unlikely.
So I imagine we have one more scum out there, and he was partners with pps and Archetype. SHouldn't be too hard to find.
I can dig the mass claim, but maybe someone would like to hold back their modifier so I can still clear my name?
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No deaths now doesn't necessarily mean scum didn't/were prevented from killing last night.. Could be a kill coming on a future night.
Is that smart for a scum to do though? When there might not BE any more nights?
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No deaths now doesn't necessarily mean scum didn't/were prevented from killing last night.. Could be a kill coming on a future night.
Is that smart for a scum to do though? When there might not BE any more nights?
I don't see why not. Scum's goal isn't to lose by the least number possible.. it's to win. If scum's going to win, there's going to be another night, multiple more nights assuredly, so there's little risk in putting off kills. If they don't happen, they weren't going to win anyway.
There are two opposing sides.. keeping more players alive means more potential mislynches, but there's also a risk of mislynching a player who scum had already marked for death, "Wasting" a mislynch. I dunno. They might or they might not, but it's certainly not out of the question that us not seeing a NK just indicates that there wasn't one last night.
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Thanks Walrus. Now I'd like Jotheonah to tell us if he has an alternate night power in addition to the modifier cop, and if so what did he do last night.
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nkirbit, did you hear from me N1 or N2? If either, then which?
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On n1 I got whisked to n2
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So PPS was a ninja roleblocker. (and a time traveler)
What do you guys think about the possibility that PPS traveled in time N1 to ninja kill someone or something like that? That would explain why there are so few NKs
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I can dig the mass claim, but maybe someone would like to hold back their modifier so I can still clear my name?
I could potentially do this. I am checking with voltaire on something first...
Because it could also potentially show you that I am unlikely to be scum, as my modifier is one that I think scum is unlikely to have--and was actually something that I was unlikely to claim regardless
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It's certainly possible.
A mass claim will help us puzzle out a lot with regards to what could have happened. Hopefully, anyway.
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So PPS was a ninja roleblocker. (and a time traveler)
What do you guys think about the possibility that PPS traveled in time N1 to ninja kill someone or something like that? That would explain why there are so few NKs
This would also explain why Walrus' roleblock did not work. There could be other explanations as well. Walrus do you think this could be why your roleblock didn't work?
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Could be. I realized that blocking the time-traveling scum would be a risk, as he might not actually have been there. But I still thought it was better than my other options.
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Up to efhw, but I think we should have Joth claim who he targeted last night, that person claim, then Joth confirm or deny the modifier.
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I've claimed my entire role. I did nothing last night, could do nothing.
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Could be. I realized that blocking the time-traveling scum would be a risk, as he might not actually have been there. But I still thought it was better than my other options.
Ok. I just wanted to see what you thought before I vote: Walrus
Reasons:
1) The sudgy result
2) Part of my ability is that I am a 1-shot follower. I followed Walrus on N1, and he did nothing. Mod confirmation tells me that if any new actions were to take place (like a time traveler goes back in time to do something) I would receive a new notification about that event. I received no such updates concerning Walrus' N1 activities.
So my choices are 1) PPS roleblocked Walrus N1 (meaning PPS did not travel that night) or 2) Walrus is scum.
His "I went back and time traveled to target the bad guy" is a scum ploy for town cred in my opinion. I was one of the biggest town!Walrus people early, but given my negative result concerning Walrus I am convinced he is scum. The only town narrative for him at this point is that PPS roleblocked him for N1 on N1 (not time-travelling) and I do not trust that. At all. It is entirely plausible because PPS was a roleblocker and if anyone has any way to confirm what action PPS took N1 we need that information because that is the only thing that could possibly clear Walrus.
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Could be. I realized that blocking the time-traveling scum would be a risk, as he might not actually have been there. But I still thought it was better than my other options.
Ok. I just wanted to see what you thought before I vote: Walrus
Reasons:
1) The sudgy result
2) Part of my ability is that I am a 1-shot follower. I followed Walrus on N1, and he did nothing. Mod confirmation tells me that if any new actions were to take place (like a time traveler goes back in time to do something) I would receive a new notification about that event. I received no such updates concerning Walrus' N1 activities.
So my choices are 1) PPS roleblocked Walrus N1 (meaning PPS did not travel that night) or 2) Walrus is scum.
His "I went back and time traveled to target the bad guy" is a scum ploy for town cred in my opinion. I was one of the biggest town!Walrus people early, but given my negative result concerning Walrus I am convinced he is scum. The only town narrative for him at this point is that PPS roleblocked him for N1 on N1 (not time-travelling) and I do not trust that. At all. It is entirely plausible because PPS was a roleblocker and if anyone has any way to confirm what action PPS took N1 we need that information because that is the only thing that could possibly clear Walrus.
This is a strong result against Walrus, but there is no rush to claim.
It would be better if you had waited for your turn.
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Well then.
vote: e
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It would be better if you had waited for your turn.
yeah, well I got excited that I actually had a result that meant something after Walrus claimed to travel back and do something on N1. I could have waited my turn in a mass claim, but I wanted attention to be brought to this now. Also, we may want to delay a mass claim until this is cleared up
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Chairs, are you still with us?
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Certainly looks bad for Walrus.
Just to make sure:
Voltaire, is what 2.7 saying true? If a hypothetical follower were to follow a player n1, and that player later traveled back to N1 and performed an action, the follower would receive an update with that player's action?
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Voltaire, is what 2.7 saying true? If a hypothetical follower were to follow a player n1, and that player later traveled back to N1 and performed an action, the follower would receive an update with that player's action?
Correct. From the Setup Post:
At the end of each night, all nights in the “past” will be re-evaluated and the game state will be adjusted to account for these actions, beginning with N0. This may include, but not be limited to, players returning from the dead, dying on nights they previously lived through, receiving a different result for a previously submitted action, etc.
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I just double checked my sent PMs and I definitely traveled back to N1, and roleblocked pingpongsam.
This doesn't make sense to me though. If e is scum, why would he put himself in such an exposed position, particularly with his partners rotting? Desperation? Seems like a really dumb thing to do...after my flip, you would lynch him immediately I think, and they would lose. On the other hand, I can't imagine why he would do this as town, unless he is mistaken, or there is some other confounding factor.
So I'll keep my vote, but I think there's probably something more at play here. Hopefully further claims will shed some light on the situation.
Also, roleblocking does not prevent time travel, in case there was some confusion there. That was one of the first things I asked Voltaire when I received my role PM.
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Thanks Voltaire!
Walrus, did you receive any sort of confirmation that your action went through? Or nothing more than a confirmation from Voltaire that he received your action?
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I just received a simple "confirmed" both times.
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It would be better if you had waited for your turn.
yeah, well I got excited that I actually had a result that meant something after Walrus claimed to travel back and do something on N1. I could have waited my turn in a mass claim, but I wanted attention to be brought to this now. Also, we may want to delay a mass claim until this is cleared up
How are we going to clear this up if not by mass-claim?
You mentioned pps roleblocking Walrus N1 as a possibility. This is actually not unlikely, as Walrus had already claimed time traveling roleblocker, and scum do not want to have their kills undone.
I am sure there exists other edge cases as well. We should continue the mass claim, and then we can judge after all the facts are on the table.
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I agree with Xeiron that PPS roleblocking Walrus is a possibility.
Keep in mind: Walrus was one of the only claimed roles day1, correct? Apart from Ash, who claimed enabler, and it almost certainly never a potential roleblocking target. There are other roles which may or may not be useful to block.. it sort of makes sense for PPS to roleblock the one person he know a roleblock will actually stop a useful action of.
Stopping Walrus from trying to go back to N1 and save a player is a logical choice for PPS to choose should Walrus not be his teammate.
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What happens if pps and I blocked each other? Who gets priority there? And would it show up as an action from sudgy's perspective?
I don't claim to understand order resolution very well, especially with time travel involved.
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I meant e's perspective, of course.
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If the two of you blocked each other, then I would be given no result of any actions. This would then clear you (in my mind) and I would once again believe you to be town.
This is a moderately likely scenario as you had claimed a pretty powerful role. I just do not think this is the case. Especially with the result of the sudgy death.
And how PPS refused to build a case on you when the case he presented clearly pointed to you. I mean, a bunch of us picked up on how indicting PPS' claim was of you. Everyone except PPS. I don't think he meant to do a claim that would indict you. It was a fakeclaim after all.
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I just received a simple "confirmed" both times.
I think that just refers to Voltaire having received the order.
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I just received a simple "confirmed" both times.
I think that just refers to Voltaire having received the order.
Yeah. I didn't receive any indication whether my actions were actually successful.
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It would be better if you had waited for your turn.
yeah, well I got excited that I actually had a result that meant something after Walrus claimed to travel back and do something on N1. I could have waited my turn in a mass claim, but I wanted attention to be brought to this now. Also, we may want to delay a mass claim until this is cleared up
How are we going to clear this up if not by mass-claim?
You mentioned pps roleblocking Walrus N1 as a possibility. This is actually not unlikely, as Walrus had already claimed time traveling roleblocker, and scum do not want to have their kills undone.
I am sure there exists other edge cases as well. We should continue the mass claim, and then we can judge after all the facts are on the table.
We can continue, but in order. You may have noticed I've been very specific about who I want to claim when. And I may decide to stop at any time, so if you have something to say, be like Jimmmmm and let me know, and then hang out a bit.
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It would be better if you had waited for your turn.
yeah, well I got excited that I actually had a result that meant something after Walrus claimed to travel back and do something on N1. I could have waited my turn in a mass claim, but I wanted attention to be brought to this now. Also, we may want to delay a mass claim until this is cleared up
How are we going to clear this up if not by mass-claim?
You mentioned pps roleblocking Walrus N1 as a possibility. This is actually not unlikely, as Walrus had already claimed time traveling roleblocker, and scum do not want to have their kills undone.
I am sure there exists other edge cases as well. We should continue the mass claim, and then we can judge after all the facts are on the table.
We can continue, but in order. You may have noticed I've been very specific about who I want to claim when. And I may decide to stop at any time, so if you have something to say, be like Jimmmmm and let me know, and then hang out a bit.
Who are we waiting for now? Anyone?
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If the two of you blocked each other, then I would be given no result of any actions. This would then clear you (in my mind) and I would once again believe you to be town.
This is a moderately likely scenario as you had claimed a pretty powerful role. I just do not think this is the case. Especially with the result of the sudgy death.
And how PPS refused to build a case on you when the case he presented clearly pointed to you. I mean, a bunch of us picked up on how indicting PPS' claim was of you. Everyone except PPS. I don't think he meant to do a claim that would indict you. It was a fakeclaim after all.
I read that as PPS's not very subtle way of trying not to seem like he was framing Walrus, when really he was.
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Who are we waiting for now? Anyone?
Now I'm thinking about 2.7's claim, which for some reason I do not like, and not just because he didn't wait. I also found his previous two posts vaguely illogical, and wondered why he made them. So I need to figure out what's going on there, too.
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It would be better if you had waited for your turn.
yeah, well I got excited that I actually had a result that meant something after Walrus claimed to travel back and do something on N1. I could have waited my turn in a mass claim, but I wanted attention to be brought to this now. Also, we may want to delay a mass claim until this is cleared up
How are we going to clear this up if not by mass-claim?
You mentioned pps roleblocking Walrus N1 as a possibility. This is actually not unlikely, as Walrus had already claimed time traveling roleblocker, and scum do not want to have their kills undone.
I am sure there exists other edge cases as well. We should continue the mass claim, and then we can judge after all the facts are on the table.
We can continue, but in order. You may have noticed I've been very specific about who I want to claim when. And I may decide to stop at any time, so if you have something to say, be like Jimmmmm and let me know, and then hang out a bit.
Who are we waiting for now? Anyone?
Thanks Walrus. Now I'd like Jotheonah to tell us if he has an alternate night power in addition to the modifier cop, and if so what did he do last night.
We are waiting for Jotheonah, are we not?
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I've claimed my entire role. I did nothing last night, could do nothing.
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Now let's hear Jimmmmm's result.
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I've claimed my entire role. I did nothing last night, could do nothing.
Oh. Missed That.
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btw, no deaths last night could well mean I'm double-targeted for N3, but it's still cheering to have a quiet night.
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I don't see why 2.7's claim is necessarily odd, or before it. He wanted to make sure he had a contradiction, and came forward when what Walrus said he did and what 2.7 saw didn't match up.
Coming forward also makes sense.. and trying to stop the mass-claim early is towny, I think. If the point of mass-claiming is to try and catch scum, and he thinks he's caught scum.. why keep going on? Wouldn't scum want to wait for their turn to gather more information?
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If I may, I disagree with the IC right now. I think that everyone should confirm/deny any targeting of Walrus or PPS from N1 before we go any further. Now I am sure EFHW has a specific reason for wanting Jimmmm to claim, and that she cannot/will not reveal it right now, but I just don't see how it is more important than deciding what we think PPS did N1.
A simple yes/no would suffice for that. If no one else targeted either one of them, then we are left with a situation where it you must either
1) believe me and think PPS did NOT target Walrus (Walrus is scum)
2) believe me and think PPS DID target Walrus (Walrus is town)
3) call me scum and a liar
Walrus chooses option 3 (judging by his vote), but I would want him to clarify that for me. I think he could very well fit into option 2 under further consideration. (those are his only two options) One reason I claimed was because the scum narrative makes no sense. If we lynch Walrus and he flips town, then we will (presumably) lynch me (unless we decide if we think PPS roleblocked Walrus). If we lynch me (I flip town), then we still need to decide if we think PPS roleblocked Walrus.
I am not working against my own win condition. I am not town making some crazy fake-claim. I am telling the truth, but my information is conditional on the fact that there is a possibility that PPS roleblocked Walrus. So the #1 priority, in my opinion, is settling that matter.
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Who are we waiting for now? Anyone?
Now I'm thinking about 2.7's claim, which for some reason I do not like, and not just because he didn't wait. I also found his previous two posts vaguely illogical, and wondered why he made them. So I need to figure out what's going on there, too.
I find 2.7's claim towny.
He seems eager to show us that he has a result that is inconsistent with Walrus. I understand it well. it is fun to win mafia games. It is even more fun when you catch scum.
I do not think 2.7 would want to claim anything inconsitent with anyone if he was scum. I is just too big risk that we might decide investigate the inconcistensy by lynching Walrus, and then 2.7 when walrus flip town. We are in ridiculus good shape as town, and can afford lynching our own. Scum can not.
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What happens if pps and I blocked each other? Who gets priority there? And would it show up as an action from sudgy's perspective?
I don't claim to understand order resolution very well, especially with time travel involved.
This is pretty interesting Question.
Say pps roleblocked Walrus, and ninja killed Sudgy
Walrus roleblocked pps.
I can see three thing happening.
1. the roleblocking cancel each other out. All other action (the ninja kill) goes through. Result: Sudgy dies
2. The roleblocking actions both goes through, and cancels all other actions for both players. Result: No kill
3. One player have priority. If so, there should be a logical system for who gets priority, and I do not think there is in this game.
I think it is mostly up to the mod how to deal with such cases.
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I do think option 2 is most plausible right now, unless there are additional variables yet unrevealed. As I said, the claim doesn't really make sense coming from scum, as my flip would seriously implicate e. It's just not a risk they could afford to take right now. And it does make sense that I would be roleblocked, given my powderful D1 claim.
The vote was mostly a knee-jerk reaction. I'll move it later if I find a better place for it.
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Why don't we ask our friendly neighborhood mod?
If two players roleblock each other, what happens? Do all potential actions by those players get cancelled? Is there a priority for which roleblock happens first?
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If two players roleblock each other, what happens? Do all potential actions by those players get cancelled? Is there a priority for which roleblock happens first?
If two roleblockers were to target each other, all potential actions would be canceled. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey. (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Timey-wimey_detector)
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The vote was mostly a knee-jerk reaction.
Yeah. It seemed like that. Which seems towny to me. I would think that scum would have quickly jumped on the idea that PPS roleblocked them. You didn't.
I still want to hear if there is any further investigative material about either yourself or PPS out there. Because if you did roleblock PPS, his ninja would no longer work and previously empty results might be discovered. Without any further evidence against Walrus, I might be able to be persuaded into option 2 rather than option 1 (where I am right now)
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We should ask voltaire, but I think the wiki might offer some insight in the meantime:
There is no consensus as to what happens when multiple Roleblockers exist and target each other (or with similar roles such as Jailkeeper). The prevailing opinion is that Roleblocks are resolved in such a way that conflicts are minimized. The other opinion is that all Roleblocks are simultaneous; thus everyone targeted by a Roleblocker is Roleblocked.
PPE: and I see that volt already answered with that I think is the best option...
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So it is not the case that scum PPS blocked Walrus and killed Sudgy, and town Walrus blocked PPS, unless there was another kill on Sudgy.
Another possibility is that Walrus is scum.
There are probably others, but those are the two obvious ones that I'm seeing.
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The vote was mostly a knee-jerk reaction.
Yeah. It seemed like that. Which seems towny to me. I would think that scum would have quickly jumped on the idea that PPS roleblocked them. You didn't.
I still want to hear if there is any further investigative material about either yourself or PPS out there. Because if you did roleblock PPS, his ninja would no longer work and previously empty results might be discovered. Without any further evidence against Walrus, I might be able to be persuaded into option 2 rather than option 1 (where I am right now)
Well, his ninja would no longer work, but neither would his kills. There wouldn't be any evidence of a kill from PPS, because any action that PPS took would no longer happen.
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pingpongsam, a Ninja role, asked D2 if someone watched sudgy. This maybe means that he ninja-killed sudgy.
Which makes this even more intriguing.
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Could be. I realized that blocking the time-traveling scum would be a risk, as he might not actually have been there. But I still thought it was better than my other options.
Ok. I just wanted to see what you thought before I vote: Walrus
Reasons:
1) The sudgy result
2) Part of my ability is that I am a 1-shot follower. I followed Walrus on N1, and he did nothing. Mod confirmation tells me that if any new actions were to take place (like a time traveler goes back in time to do something) I would receive a new notification about that event. I received no such updates concerning Walrus' N1 activities.
So my choices are 1) PPS roleblocked Walrus N1 (meaning PPS did not travel that night) or 2) Walrus is scum.
His "I went back and time traveled to target the bad guy" is a scum ploy for town cred in my opinion. I was one of the biggest town!Walrus people early, but given my negative result concerning Walrus I am convinced he is scum. The only town narrative for him at this point is that PPS roleblocked him for N1 on N1 (not time-travelling) and I do not trust that. At all. It is entirely plausible because PPS was a roleblocker and if anyone has any way to confirm what action PPS took N1 we need that information because that is the only thing that could possibly clear Walrus.
I am going to add one more hypothetical....
it is possible that 2.7 was blocked night1 and thus why he received no information about this?
2.7 is there any indication that would differentate between you being blocked and seeing someone doing nothing? Or even retroactively blocked somehow.
Just so that we are covering all the possible bases here.
from the wiki
Some moderators will tell Followers whose targets did not visit anyone "No Result", which is indistinguishable from the result they would have gotten if the Follower were Roleblocked.
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Actually, Jimmmmm, wait, if it's not too late. I'll explain when I'm at a computer.
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I did not recieve a "no result" PM. I did confirm with Voltaire that my N1 action did not have any new updates.
I do not believe that there is any information that would differentiate the situation where I am roleblocked, the person I follow is role-blocked, or the person I follow does nothing.
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I don't like Walrus's night action claim. Claiming to have targeted a dead person in the past? How much safer can you get?
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I don't like Walrus's night action claim. Claiming to have targeted a dead person in the past? How much safer can you get?
I dunno. If you're a town roleblocker, confirmed scum is a pretty good person to target.. if he chose to travel into the future, he is by far more likely to block town then scum.
Taking the action that has a chance of helping town is probably better than the action that has a pretty good chance of harming town.
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I don't like Walrus's night action claim. Claiming to have targeted a dead person in the past? How much safer can you get?
I desagree. I was a logical choice for him, and a good oppurtunity to clear himself. The action fits perfectly in a town narrative for Walrus.
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I don't like Walrus's night action claim. Claiming to have targeted a dead person in the past? How much safer can you get?
I dunno. If you're a town roleblocker, confirmed scum is a pretty good person to target.. if he chose to travel into the future, he is by far more likely to block town then scum.
Taking the action that has a chance of helping town is probably better than the action that has a pretty good chance of harming town.
He also has a vig shot though. THat's a chance of ending the game right then and there. And town vigs, I believe, usually want to shoot.
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I don't like Walrus's night action claim. Claiming to have targeted a dead person in the past? How much safer can you get?
I dunno. If you're a town roleblocker, confirmed scum is a pretty good person to target.. if he chose to travel into the future, he is by far more likely to block town then scum.
Taking the action that has a chance of helping town is probably better than the action that has a pretty good chance of harming town.
He also has a vig shot though. THat's a chance of ending the game right then and there. And town vigs, I believe, usually want to shoot.
If by ending the game right then and there you mean Night 4, I guess.
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I don't like Walrus's night action claim. Claiming to have targeted a dead person in the past? How much safer can you get?
I dunno. If you're a town roleblocker, confirmed scum is a pretty good person to target.. if he chose to travel into the future, he is by far more likely to block town then scum.
Taking the action that has a chance of helping town is probably better than the action that has a pretty good chance of harming town.
He also has a vig shot though. THat's a chance of ending the game right then and there. And town vigs, I believe, usually want to shoot.
He have already claimed to shoot pps night 2.(submitted order N1). The next chance to shoot is N4.
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I'm pretty sure he's not PPS's partner.. claiming to vig your partner night2.. what's the game plan when you both live through the night? Looks pretty bad for at least one of them, huh?
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I'm pretty sure he's not PPS's partner.. claiming to vig your partner night2.. what's the game plan when you both live through the night? Looks pretty bad for at least one of them, huh?
That is actually possible. They would say PPS survived because of the regeneration he claimed, while he really survives because Walrus lies.
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I don't like Walrus's night action claim. Claiming to have targeted a dead person in the past? How much safer can you get?
How much safer would you like? :P
With this big a lead I think the "safe" plays are the wisest ones to make. That's true I think for most games...you have to take more risks generally when you're behind.
Also, somebody asked me yesterday why I vigged after we had flipped scum. To be honest, that was something I had not thought about at that point. But with two scum down, the risks of a misvig are unacceptably high. And now I had a roleblock target I could feel confident about.
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It's fine with me to check re: PPS role-blocking, but I don't see how anyone would know if PPS in particular role-blocked them.
Ok, each person should say a "yes" or a "no" about whether they have reason to believe an N1 action of theirs was roleblocked or if they tried to roleblock either pps or Walrus. Please just yes or no for now. Don't say anything else. I promise you will get your turn. It may seem unnecessary, but one aim of my delaying claims has been to leave scum completely in the dark about who our investigative and protective roles are, if any, and we may decide to continue that if we get enough info for today.
I want Jimmmmm to hold off claiming so scum can't make fakeclaims consistent with his result, and because I have another question first.
Does anyone feel that their role is comparable to Jotheonah's in terms not having much to do, and getting information that would probably only be helpful in a limited number of circumstances? I ask this because there is such a disparity between his and Walrus's roles, and I'm surprised to see an RMM role without more stuff to do. ONLY ANSWER IF YOU ARE SAYING YES and DON"T LIE AS TOWN. It might seem like clever subterfuge to seem to have a minor role, but it really won't help in the long run.
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EFHW: Yes to the joth question.
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It's fine with me to check re: PPS role-blocking, but I don't see how anyone would know if PPS in particular role-blocked them.
Ok, each person should say a "yes" or a "no" about whether they have reason to believe an N1 action of theirs was roleblocked or if they tried to roleblock either pps or Walrus. Please just yes or no for now. Don't say anything else. I promise you will get your turn. It may seem unnecessary, but one aim of my delaying claims has been to leave scum completely in the dark about who our investigative and protective roles are, if any, and we may decide to continue that if we get enough info for today.
I want Jimmmmm to hold off claiming so scum can't make fakeclaims consistent with his result, and because I have another question first.
Does anyone feel that their role is comparable to Jotheonah's in terms not having much to do, and getting information that would probably only be helpful in a limited number of circumstances? I ask this because there is such a disparity between his and Walrus's roles, and I'm surprised to see an RMM role without more stuff to do. ONLY ANSWER IF YOU ARE SAYING YES and DON"T LIE AS TOWN. It might seem like clever subterfuge to seem to have a minor role, but it really won't help in the long run.
Yes - to the fist question.
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I don't see why 2.7's claim is necessarily odd, or before it. He wanted to make sure he had a contradiction, and came forward when what Walrus said he did and what 2.7 saw didn't match up.
Coming forward also makes sense.. and trying to stop the mass-claim early is towny, I think. If the point of mass-claiming is to try and catch scum, and he thinks he's caught scum.. why keep going on? Wouldn't scum want to wait for their turn to gather more information?
I'm just surprised to see 2.7's claim not getting the kind of scrutiny that all of the other claims have gotten. As for my not feeling good about it, I guess I should keep that to myself until I have more to go on.
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And no to the PPS/Walrus question.
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I don't see why 2.7's claim is necessarily odd, or before it. He wanted to make sure he had a contradiction, and came forward when what Walrus said he did and what 2.7 saw didn't match up.
Coming forward also makes sense.. and trying to stop the mass-claim early is towny, I think. If the point of mass-claiming is to try and catch scum, and he thinks he's caught scum.. why keep going on? Wouldn't scum want to wait for their turn to gather more information?
I'm just surprised to see 2.7's claim not getting the kind of scrutiny that all of the other claims have gotten. As for my not feeling good about it, I guess I should keep that to myself until I have more to go on.
Well, we're planning to massclaim. I'm going to wait until everything's out there, if it's going to be, because analyzing an incomplete picture isn't necessarily helpful.
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pingpongsam, a Ninja role, asked D2 if someone watched sudgy. This maybe means that he ninja-killed sudgy.
I agree that this strongly suggests that pps tried, at least, to ninja-kill sudgy, and that he was trying to frame Walrus with his fakeclaim.
Now there is this disparity, where Walrus claims to have role-blocked pps and 2.7 claims he followed Walrus and was told of no actions taken by Walrus.
Here's a question - can ninja kills be roleblocked?
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I believe you can. Ninja has to do with how the kill is detected (it isn't..), but roleblocking stops the kill from happening.
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I don't see why 2.7's claim is necessarily odd, or before it. He wanted to make sure he had a contradiction, and came forward when what Walrus said he did and what 2.7 saw didn't match up.
Coming forward also makes sense.. and trying to stop the mass-claim early is towny, I think. If the point of mass-claiming is to try and catch scum, and he thinks he's caught scum.. why keep going on? Wouldn't scum want to wait for their turn to gather more information?
I'm just surprised to see 2.7's claim not getting the kind of scrutiny that all of the other claims have gotten. As for my not feeling good about it, I guess I should keep that to myself until I have more to go on.
Well, we're planning to massclaim. I'm going to wait until everything's out there, if it's going to be, because analyzing an incomplete picture isn't necessarily helpful.
My impression has been that you are accepting 2.7's claim on its face and have decided that you see it and him as towny, not that you are withholding judgment until the end.
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I believe you can. Ninja has to do with how the kill is detected (it isn't..), but roleblocking stops the kill from happening.
the wiki is down, so we'll have to wait to find out more.
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I don't see why 2.7's claim is necessarily odd, or before it. He wanted to make sure he had a contradiction, and came forward when what Walrus said he did and what 2.7 saw didn't match up.
Coming forward also makes sense.. and trying to stop the mass-claim early is towny, I think. If the point of mass-claiming is to try and catch scum, and he thinks he's caught scum.. why keep going on? Wouldn't scum want to wait for their turn to gather more information?
I'm just surprised to see 2.7's claim not getting the kind of scrutiny that all of the other claims have gotten. As for my not feeling good about it, I guess I should keep that to myself until I have more to go on.
Well, we're planning to massclaim. I'm going to wait until everything's out there, if it's going to be, because analyzing an incomplete picture isn't necessarily helpful.
My impression has been that you are accepting 2.7's claim on its face and have decided that you see it and him as towny, not that you are withholding judgment until the end.
I do think he's telling the truth, yes.
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Ok, each person should say a "yes" or a "no" about whether they have reason to believe an N1 action of theirs was roleblocked or if they tried to roleblock either pps or Walrus.
No, I do not think that my action was affected in any way
Does anyone feel that their role is comparable to Jotheonah's in terms not having much to do, and getting information that would probably only be helpful in a limited number of circumstances?
If an action role such as follower fits into that category, then yes, my role is not that exciting
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Ok, each person should say a "yes" or a "no" about whether they have reason to believe an N1 action of theirs was roleblocked or if they tried to roleblock either pps or Walrus. Please just yes or no for now.
No.
Does anyone feel that their role is comparable to Jotheonah's in terms not having much to do, and getting information that would probably only be helpful in a limited number of circumstances? I ask this because there is such a disparity between his and Walrus's roles, and I'm surprised to see an RMM role without more stuff to do. ONLY ANSWER IF YOU ARE SAYING YES and DON"T LIE AS TOWN. It might seem like clever subterfuge to seem to have a minor role, but it really won't help in the long run.
Yes to an extent and I should also say from a mod point of view that such a disparity is completely within the bounds of game creation. RMM is everyone gets a role, not everyone gets the most super awesome role ever... I am not perturbed by joth's role being small or by walrus's being extravagant... I think going down that road is a blind alley.
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Here's a question - can ninja kills be roleblocked?
Yes, they can. The ninja equivalent for roleblocking is Strongman--which cannot be blocked.
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It's a weak role. But in an ternate universe, it could have cleared sudgy. So it's not useless.
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ok, a couple people have said yes, so no one else needs to answer the joth question. Please do answer the roleblock question. So far, we have a yes from xeiron and no's from nkirbit, 2.7 and yuma. Still need to hear from Jimmmmm, faust, jotheonah and ... ashersky.
joth I didn't mean your role was useless, it just didn't make sense to ask does anyone have a really powerful role like Walrus.
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Sorry, crazy busy. Trying to read along.
No reason to think I was roleblocked. Is that the question?
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I got a result on sudgy. So I wasn't roleblocked.
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after we hear yes or no from Jimmmmm and faust, xeiron should explain why he said yes.
also, remember the question is both were you possibly roleblocked and/or did you roleblock anyone.
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I also should expand the question to include N2, since pps might have traveled to the future on N1. So answer yes if you think you were roleblocked or you tried to roleblock someone on N2 as well as N1.
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Ok, each person should say a "yes" or a "no" about whether they have reason to believe an N1 action of theirs was roleblocked or if they tried to roleblock either pps or Walrus. Please just yes or no for now.
No.
I also should expand the question to include N2, since pps might have traveled to the future on N1. So answer yes if you think you were roleblocked or you tried to roleblock someone on N2 as well as N1.
if we expand the question to someone, as in anyone in the game, then my answer kinda changes.
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I actually roleblocked someone outside of the game. I traveled all the way back to Mafia IV and roleblocked Robz. It didn't do anything fortunately, as it could have had some drastic effects on the timeline.
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I actually roleblocked someone outside of the game. I traveled all the way back to Mafia IV and roleblocked Robz. It didn't do anything fortunately, as it could have had some drastic effects on the timeline.
Now I have to go and reread Mafia IV......great....
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I can dig the mass claim, but maybe someone would like to hold back their modifier so I can still clear my name?
I could potentially do this. I am checking with voltaire on something first...
Because it could also potentially show you that I am unlikely to be scum, as my modifier is one that I think scum is unlikely to have--and was actually something that I was unlikely to claim regardless
voltaire got back to me.... soyeah, i can do this if efhw approves of it
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Is there a particular reason you wanted to do it, Yuma? Or are you just volunteering?
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Ok, each person should say a "yes" or a "no" about whether they have reason to believe an N1 action of theirs was roleblocked or if they tried to roleblock either pps or Walrus.
No.
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It's fine with me to check re: PPS role-blocking, but I don't see how anyone would know if PPS in particular role-blocked them.
Ok, each person should say a "yes" or a "no" about whether they have reason to believe an N1 action of theirs was roleblocked or if they tried to roleblock either pps or Walrus. Please just yes or no for now. Don't say anything else. I promise you will get your turn. It may seem unnecessary, but one aim of my delaying claims has been to leave scum completely in the dark about who our investigative and protective roles are, if any, and we may decide to continue that if we get enough info for today.
First question: yes. Second question: no.
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I also should expand the question to include N2, since pps might have traveled to the future on N1. So answer yes if you think you were roleblocked or you tried to roleblock someone on N2 as well as N1.
I was not roleblocked N2. I did not roleblock N2.
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I have a question towards ashersky that I think has not come up yet (and I think everyone should consider this): You claimed to enable regeneration. PPS has flipped Enabled, but not Regenerating. What do you say about that?
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I can dig the mass claim, but maybe someone would like to hold back their modifier so I can still clear my name?
I could potentially do this. I am checking with voltaire on something first...
Because it could also potentially show you that I am unlikely to be scum, as my modifier is one that I think scum is unlikely to have--and was actually something that I was unlikely to claim regardless
voltaire got back to me.... soyeah, i can do this if efhw approves of it
You realize that if we do this like the plan is here (everyone but yuma full-claims), then you are going to be NK target tonight almost certainly? If we want jotheonah to confirm the modifier of one of us, I think at least two people should refrain from claiming their modifiers.
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after we hear yes or no from Jimmmmm and faust, xeiron should explain why he said yes.
also, remember the question is both were you possibly roleblocked and/or did you roleblock anyone.
I would prefer to claim near the end.
What I can say is that I have QT with somone.
I have fullclaimed there, and that person can confirm that I do not change my claim based other claims.
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I can dig the mass claim, but maybe someone would like to hold back their modifier so I can still clear my name?
I could potentially do this. I am checking with voltaire on something first...
Because it could also potentially show you that I am unlikely to be scum, as my modifier is one that I think scum is unlikely to have--and was actually something that I was unlikely to claim regardless
voltaire got back to me.... soyeah, i can do this if efhw approves of it
You realize that if we do this like the plan is here (everyone but yuma full-claims), then you are going to be NK target tonight almost certainly? If we want jotheonah to confirm the modifier of one of us, I think at least two people should refrain from claiming their modifiers.
This would not help much if jotheonah is scum. He could still nk one of them and say thats who he targeted.
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I can dig the mass claim, but maybe someone would like to hold back their modifier so I can still clear my name?
I could potentially do this. I am checking with voltaire on something first...
Because it could also potentially show you that I am unlikely to be scum, as my modifier is one that I think scum is unlikely to have--and was actually something that I was unlikely to claim regardless
voltaire got back to me.... soyeah, i can do this if efhw approves of it
You realize that if we do this like the plan is here (everyone but yuma full-claims), then you are going to be NK target tonight almost certainly? If we want jotheonah to confirm the modifier of one of us, I think at least two people should refrain from claiming their modifiers.
This would not help much if jotheonah is scum. He could still nk one of them and say thats who he targeted.
Correct. But this is something we cannot prevent. My concern is that jotheonah is town, and by this plan, scum knows his target. So they have all kinds of ways to manipulate, from simply killing the target to redirecting and so on. So we will probably not be able to confirm jotheonah's role.
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I have a question towards ashersky that I think has not come up yet (and I think everyone should consider this): You claimed to enable regeneration. PPS has flipped Enabled, but not Regenerating. What do you say about that?
I don't know. Do other claimed regeneraters want to state if their role names are worded that way? PPS claimed enabled BP, he was enabled something. He was also scum.
No death last night could easily mean BP folks were shot at. At this point, I think I enable(d) both town and scum.
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is confirming me such a big deal anymore? Is anyone still convinced I'm scum after PPS's flip?
I'm happy to do it, of course, but if it turns out to not be the best use of resources, whatever.
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is confirming me such a big deal anymore? Is anyone still convinced I'm scum after PPS's flip?
I'm happy to do it, of course, but if it turns out to not be the best use of resources, whatever.
I do not think so.
A massclaim will probably give us everything we need to catch scum anyway.
I think it is better if you use your role to confirm other roles, not your own.
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Is there a particular reason you wanted to do it, Yuma? Or are you just volunteering?
Just volunteering. If it is something we want to do it might be nice because I think it would show that I am less likely to be mafia based off my modifier. It doesn't prove anything, but I believe most people would think that my modifier is one that mafia is less likely to be given.
As for me being NKed... at this stage I don't think mafia is going to specifically target someone to prevent joth from confirming his role--one which could very well be part of a scum role anways... (role cop basically)... when they have other, bigger fish to fry with their night actions. If mafia target me during the night, it is because they think I won't be lynched the next days or because my PR is one that they want to eliminate... not because of concerns about joth....
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is confirming me such a big deal anymore? Is anyone still convinced I'm scum after PPS's flip?
I'm happy to do it, of course, but if it turns out to not be the best use of resources, whatever.
I do not think so.
A massclaim will probably give us everything we need to catch scum anyway.
I think it is better if you use your role to confirm other roles, not your own.
Since we have not ruled out multiball, and with the possibility of 3rd parties, I don't think we can consider Joth confirmed town at this point. I also think scum have more important things to worry about, like nk'ing me or Walrus (if town) and stopping investigators, so I don't think they will make framing Joth a big priority. yuma can leave out his modifier, and joth can decide during the night how would be best to use his power.
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Also I checked my pm and my title does not include the regeneration power.
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faust - I was confused about which question you were answering yes to. If it's the roleblocking N1 question, please tell us why you said yes.
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I think we should just let scum go ahead and claim scum so we can lynch them and win.
Scum pls. Pls. 8)
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after we hear yes or no from Jimmmmm and faust, xeiron should explain why he said yes.
also, remember the question is both were you possibly roleblocked and/or did you roleblock anyone.
I would prefer to claim near the end.
What I can say is that I have QT with somone.
I have fullclaimed there, and that person can confirm that I do not change my claim based other claims.
are you confirmed town to each other?
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after we hear yes or no from Jimmmmm and faust, xeiron should explain why he said yes.
also, remember the question is both were you possibly roleblocked and/or did you roleblock anyone.
I would prefer to claim near the end.
What I can say is that I have QT with somone.
I have fullclaimed there, and that person can confirm that I do not change my claim based other claims.
are you confirmed town to each other?
No.
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xeiron - I know you want to wait, but the thing is we're trying to make sense of 2.7's result, and it rests on whether or not we think pps (or someone else) might have roleblocked Walrus N1. So, if you can shed any light on that now, it would be helpful.
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My role title does not explicitly say regenerating. It just says "Enabled".
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My powers are not enabled, so far as I know.
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I know right. I still can't believe that. My eyes glanced right over that part.
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I'm pretty sure the speccy QT (if there is one) is full of people going "I can't believe they haven't lynched Walrus yet OMG!"
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And they would all be wrong. It's called "dramatic irony"
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xeiron - I know you want to wait, but the thing is we're trying to make sense of 2.7's result, and it rests on whether or not we think pps (or someone else) might have roleblocked Walrus N1. So, if you can shed any light on that now, it would be helpful.
I do have results that will illuminate that subject.
But there is no need to clear that up before we continue, is there?
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xeiron - I know you want to wait, but the thing is we're trying to make sense of 2.7's result, and it rests on whether or not we think pps (or someone else) might have roleblocked Walrus N1. So, if you can shed any light on that now, it would be helpful.
I do have results that will illuminate that subject.
But there is no need to clear that up before we continue, is there?
How bout you just follow the IC's request why don't you.... She is obviously doing this in an order for a specific reason
vote: xeiron
-
It would be cleaner, but no it's not necessary. We'll wait to hear from faust then.
PPE: Thanks for the support yuma, but I think xeiron also has a reason, and we can proceed on that basis for now.
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Vote Count 3.1
Walrus (1): 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): Walrus
xeiron (1): yuma
Not voting (7): ashersky, EFHW, faust, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, nkirbit, xeiron
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends on Thursday, January 16 at 11 AM forum time
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It would be cleaner, but no it's not necessary. We'll wait to hear from faust then.
PPE: Thanks for the support yuma, but I think xeiron also has a reason, and we can proceed on that basis for now.
If you feel that way then fine. But I dont' like the precedent.... Who is up next then?
unvote
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faust - I was confused about which question you were answering yes to. If it's the roleblocking N1 question, please tell us why you said yes.
How specific do you want me to be? I targeted someone N1 and there was no result of any kind to this action.
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EFHW, is there some way you can put out a specific order, all in one post for what you want or just let us all claim or something? I know we have plenty of time but right now it really feels like there is nothing to do here until person X says this. Then we have to wait for you to get online and react to X and tell person Y to do this. Then we wait for Y to get online, etc.....
I know you are doing what you are doing for a reason, but is there any way you could streamline it a little more?
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I agree with e. What with time zone differences and such this dialogue could take days. I feel like everything is on hold right now.
-
EFHW, is there some way you can put out a specific order, all in one post for what you want or just let us all claim or something? I know we have plenty of time but right now it really feels like there is nothing to do here until person X says this. Then we have to wait for you to get online and react to X and tell person Y to do this. Then we wait for Y to get online, etc.....
I know you are doing what you are doing for a reason, but is there any way you could streamline it a little more?
this... and people not claiming, stalling when it is their turn
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faust - I was confused about which question you were answering yes to. If it's the roleblocking N1 question, please tell us why you said yes.
How specific do you want me to be? I targeted someone N1 and there was no result of any kind to this action.
ok, so you think you may have been roleblocked, correct?
It's hard to know what the order will be. I know I want 2.7 to finish claiming his role, and then yuma can go.
-
Along with my 1-shot follower, I am a 1-shot voyeur (which I have also already used up). I did not receive any groundbreaking news from my voyeur and would prefer to keep that private for now unless EFHW requests that I share.
thats it. Nothing else. Two one-shots. Maybe a little trigger happy with their use, but such is the case. I have no further abilities and basically function as a VT the rest of the game.
-
Say it now.
-
BURN THE WITCH!
Err, I mean, give your results, e!
-
EFHW, is there some way you can put out a specific order, all in one post for what you want or just let us all claim or something? I know we have plenty of time but right now it really feels like there is nothing to do here until person X says this. Then we have to wait for you to get online and react to X and tell person Y to do this. Then we wait for Y to get online, etc.....
I know you are doing what you are doing for a reason, but is there any way you could streamline it a little more?
I keep checking in. Did you say you wanted it to go more efficiently.
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ok, here is the order. Remember the purpose of doing it one at a time is that the people going earlier don't know what the later people might say. Claiming all at once will give that advantage up.
2.7 needs to say his result.
yuma and results if any
Jimmmmm - including your result
xeiron - including your result
nkirbit - and results if any
faust - and results if any
It's up to you guys if you want to make and discuss counterclaims right away, or collect all the data and then sort it out.
-
I'll claim last.
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I just realized ashersky never full claimed. New list:
2.7 needs to say his result.
yuma and results if any
ashersky
Jimmmmm - including your result
xeiron - including your result
nkirbit - and results if any
faust - and results if any
In your claims, please indicate if you 1) time-travel, 2) are enabled, 3) have regeneration.
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Claims so far:
ashersky - Enabler
Walrus - River Song - Enabled, Regenerating, Time-Traveling Odd night Roleblocker/Even night Vig. Claims N1: roleblocked pps; N2: vigged pps. We currently have no verification for any of this. Contradicted by 2.7's claim.
Chairs - tree stump. He cannot vote, is not counted in number of people. Could conceivably be scum, but unlikely.
Sudgy - weak doctor. Verified by his flip. Probably targeted Walrus N1, was the only death N1.
Archetype - Mafia, Bus-driver.
jotheonah - Non-consecutive night Modifier cop. Investigated sudgy N1. We have no confirmation.
EFHW - The Doctor - IC, has regeneration
pps - Mafia, Time-traveling Ninja Roleblocker. Had regeneration? Did he block Walrus N1?
2.7 - One-shot voyeur - N2? results unknown. One-shot watcher. Claims he watched Walrus N1 and that Walrus took no actions. Contradicts Walrus's claim.
faust - thinks he may have been roleblocked
Jimmmmm - has unknown result from N2
xeiron - has unknown information
yuma - ??
nkirbit - ??
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You missed my flavor name.
-
Recap of my actions:
1 shot follower used N1- targeted at Walrus, received no information N1, then received no information again N2 which contradicts Walrus saying that he traveled back to N1 to roleblock PPS
1 shot voyeur used N2- targeted at Jotheonah. Jotheonah was targeted by protection N2.
That is the extent of my role. No time-traveling. No enabling. No regeneration. And no more actions remaining.
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Thanks 2.7. Sorry ashersky, I'll put it in next time I update it. yuma is up.
I also had another thought, unfortunately too late for 2.7. Claim everything up to your results, if you have any. So action, target, night should all be claimed. But leave out results for the time being.
-
yuma is up.
I am a Redacted, Alien Jailkeeper. This means that the player that I target cannot perform their role or be the target of any action (I believe this includes investigations, as normally a jailkept player can be targeted by a tracker or a cop).
Night1 I targeted EFHW. I feel that this alien variant is actually often anti-town as it can stop the investigation ability, hence why I targeted EFHW and decided to use it solely as protection.
Night2 I targeted ashersky. This is because from what he said earlier to my query:
Oh I wanted to ask ash a question he might not want to answer... ash if you are willing to say is your enabling power passive or active. That is can it be blocked in anyway beside from you dying? Basically could someone protect you w/o having your enabling power be blocked or is it all dependent on you being alive.
I am willing to say that as long as I live, regeneration is enabled. Doc, JK, etc. won't stop it, but would keep me alive. Does that answer your question?
that me jailkeeping him wouldn't stop his enabling ability.
This may or may not explain the lack of night kills in the game... I am not certain as I receive no notification if I block any action, but I could see both players being targets in the night.
Also, my ability does not prevent a player from time traveling. I personally cannot time travel and I am not enabled (at least I don't think I am) and my role has a modifier that I am keeping secret, at least for now, so that joth can investigate me (per EFHW's instructions)
My flavor is Martha Jones.
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ash, your turn, then I can go.
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Along with my 1-shot follower, I am a 1-shot voyeur (which I have also already used up). I did not receive any groundbreaking news from my voyeur and would prefer to keep that private for now unless EFHW requests that I share.
thats it. Nothing else. Two one-shots. Maybe a little trigger happy with their use, but such is the case. I have no further abilities and basically function as a VT the rest of the game.
e - what is your role name?
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As mentioned, regeneration enabler. That's passive. In addition, I can "time lock" X number of nights. The role name there is "time locker." If I lock a night, nothing can be changed about it. I can go into more detail, if needed. As mentioned, I'm Jenny, the Doctor's daughter.
I have not locked any nights up to now, so I am not a valid excuse for Walrus's inconsistent claim.
-
I was not jailkept N1. I took an action that did go through.
-
I was not jailkept N1. I took an action that did go through.
-
I can go into more detail, if needed.
EFHW, do you need more detail, or is it my turn?
-
I can go into more detail, if needed.
EFHW, do you need more detail, or is it my turn?
I think you can go ahead.
-
Okay, going.
I am a Universal Backup. I inherited sudgy's role, and am now a Weak Doctor.
I targeted jotheonah last Night.
There is no time traveling or enabling mentioned in either of my PMs.
As I am alive, jotheonah must be Town unless I was Roleblocked.
This also explains e's Night 2 result, and makes me believe his claim:
1 shot voyeur used N2- targeted at Jotheonah. Jotheonah was targeted by protection N2.
I'll keep my flavour name to myself so I can use it to communicate who I'm targeting Tonight.
-
I also inherited sudgy's Hated modifier.
-
So the following is the lynch pool for me:
Walrus
xeiron
ashersky
faust
yuma
nkirbit
If he contradicts e's claim, Walrus has got to be way out in front.
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I am The Tardis an ascetic Time Travel Enabler compulsive random Redirector.
Ascetic - all night actions on me, except kills, fail. This is probably there to stop paradoxes.
Time Travel Enabeler - Passive power. When I die, no one will be able to time travel anymore.
Cumpulsive random redirector - Each night I must target someone. Instead of their original target, they will target someone randomly among all the living players. If the person they ended up targeting is an illegal target, thier action counts as blocked instead.
N1 I targeted Walrus. This means that his roleblocking have been redirected from pps to someone else. Seems like it was directed to 2.7, or back to Walrus himself (Walrus would then count as blocked as roleblockers are usually not allowed to self target).
N2 I targeted Ashersky.
-
Wow okay.
How does your PM spell Enabeler?
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ash yes please go into detail.
Jimmmmm why is Yuma so low on your list, when I have contradicted his claim?
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xeiron, why did you choose Walrus? And why ashersky?
-
Wow okay.
How does your PM spell Enabeler?
Enabler, like in my claim.
-
Time Travel Enabeler
-
I have information that I think will be highly relevant today. I am sitting here hoping to be able to claim soon. I understand that nkirbit should claim first though.
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Jimmmmm why is Yuma so low on your list, when I have contradicted his claim?
The list wasn't in any particular order, I copy-pasted the player list from the OP and deleted everyone else. It was just a coincidence that Walrus was first on the list. I'll have to remind myself about the yuma situation.
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Things are coming together. nkirbit, you are next.
PPE since you are here, faust, go ahead.
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I also have a neighborhood QT with Nkirbit that he initiated. He has claimed for me there, so I think it would be OK for faust to claim now. Or I can claim for nkirbit.
-
Wow okay, missed the yuma thing. So either yuma is lying about JKing EFHW, or he was somehow himself Roleblocked or Redirected.
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I am Ian Chesterton, Jack-Of-All-Trades. I am a 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker.
Night 1, I watched ashersky. I did not receive any information.
Night 2, I tracked Jimmmmm. He did target jotheonah.
What this claim means:
- e is likely telling the truth. His claim mirrors mine nicely.
- together with e's information (jotheonah was targeted by protection), Jimmmmm's claim (UB/Weak Doctor), and my tracking result, I think we can clear jotheonah. Also this clears Jimmmmm.
I am going to vote: yuma for being contradicted by the IC.
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Faust did you hear from me N2?
-
Faust did you hear from me N2?
Yes, I did. Do you need any information from that?
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Faust did you hear from me N2?
Yes, I did. Do you need any information from that?
Yes, tell us about that, too.
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xeiron, why did you choose Walrus? And why ashersky?
I chose Walrus N1 because I was sceptical to his role, especially his ability to kill. My priority was to find nightkill and try to redirect them.
I though that his claim was odd or even night before time traveling. ie. that N1 he had a roleblock he could use any night, and thus that the could could later during n2, and n4 travel back to N1 and kill someone.
After Achetype flipped scum, I still thought Walrus could be bad, but if he was I was leaning more on SK, that mafia.
It did strike me later that targeting Walrus was not a good choice, and I would propably have targeted someone else if I could submit that action again.
N2 i targeted Ashersky because he was my top scumread.
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Faust did you hear from me N2?
Yes, I did. Do you need any information from that?
Yes, tell us about that, too.
I travelled with you to N3, and I gained a 1-shot Watcher from the journey.
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Faust did you hear from me N2?
Yes, I did. Do you need any information from that?
Yes, tell us about that, too.
I travelled with you to N3, and I gained a 1-shot Watcher from the journey.
Did you do anything in N3?
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Faust did you hear from me N2?
Yes, I did. Do you need any information from that?
Yes, tell us about that, too.
I travelled with you to N3, and I gained a 1-shot Watcher from the journey.
Did you do anything in N3?
No, I couldn't. I just got the information that I travelled with you at the end of N2, I was not able to submit any actions.
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Vote Count 3.2
Walrus (1): 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): Walrus
yuma (1): faust
Not voting (7): ashersky, EFHW, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, nkirbit, xeiron, yuma
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends on Thursday, January 16 at 11 AM forum time
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I haven't claimed my flavor yet, so for completeness sake, Donna Noble.
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Faust did you hear from me N2?
Yes, I did. Do you need any information from that?
Yes, tell us about that, too.
I travelled with you to N3, and I gained a 1-shot Watcher from the journey.
Did you do anything in N3?
No, I couldn't. I just got the information that I travelled with you at the end of N2, I was not able to submit any actions.
/confused. After nkirbit claims, I'll say why.
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xeiron - is there anything nkirbit could say that would explain my not being jailkept on N1?
-
The scummiest pleople, in order:
yuma
ashersky
Walrus
xeiron
nkirbit
e
Jimmmmm
jotheonah
EFHW
faust
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Nkirbit is not here now, so I take the liberty to claim for him.
He is a time cop.
Each night, He can target a player and will be told what night they traveled to, if any.
Quothing his results, and him explaining the QT
"
Making this qt was not part of my original role. Night1, I received a message saying I had traveled with the doctor to night two, and wanted to talk about it, so would be able to start a qt with my player of my choice night 2.
Joth stayed in N1 during N1. Consistent with his claim.
I tried to target Walrus last night, but I was unable to because the Doctor had previously taken me to Night 2, so I was ineligible to use my role last night. Something about having to lay low to not have time streams cross or something."
-
Nkirbit is not here now, so I take the liberty to claim for him.
He is a time cop.
Each night, He can target a player and will be told what night they traveled to, if any.
Quothing his results, and him explaining the QT
"
Making this qt was not part of my original role. Night1, I received a message saying I had traveled with the doctor to night two, and wanted to talk about it, so would be able to start a qt with my player of my choice night 2.
Joth stayed in N1 during N1. Consistent with his claim.
I tried to target Walrus last night, but I was unable to because the Doctor had previously taken me to Night 2, so I was ineligible to use my role last night. Something about having to lay low to not have time streams cross or something."
Did nkirbit tell you why he chose you as his neighbor?
-
xeiron - is there anything nkirbit could say that would explain my not being jailkept on N1?
My sugestion is that your action actually counts as being in the night you travel to, not from.
If so you have done your N2 and N3 action, but not a N1 action yet, and has therefore not been Jailkept.
Do you think this is a possibility? If not, things look bad for Yuma.
-
Did nkirbit tell you why he chose you as his neighbor?
Yes.
quote from nkirbit:
The reason I chose you is that I know you like to make up a lot of theories.. You did so in both innovation and Shakespeare.
In innovation it turned out you were by far the most correct, but I thought you were scum so it didn't help us out. Shakespeare you were way off, but it was day1 and you really didn't have much to work with. I thought you might like a place to spitball about random theries, I dunno. I didn't know who else to pick so I went with that.
-
The scummiest pleople, in order:
yuma
ashersky
Walrus
xeiron
nkirbit
e
Jimmmmm
jotheonah
EFHW
faust
This is petty much my list as well.
-
xeiron - is there anything nkirbit could say that would explain my not being jailkept on N1?
My sugestion is that your action actually counts as being in the night you travel to, not from.
If so you have done your N2 and N3 action, but not a N1 action yet, and has therefore not been Jailkept.
Do you think this is a possibility? If not, things look bad for Yuma.
No, I don't. I took the action in N1.
I am The Doctor, (get ready) a compulsive enabled time traveling lonely innocent child. I also have regeneration, which is also enabled. xeiron's post clears up my confusion. I am required to pick someone to take to another time with me. That person gets a bonus. I thought they got to perform their action in the new time, but it looks like it actually interferes with their action-taking, as they are from then on ineligible to act in the time I take them to. I was confused b/c when faust didn't take an action in N3, I didn't see what the point of the time-traveling was.
N1 I took nkirbit to N2, N2 I took faust to N3. It sounds like they still performed their own actions in their original time frames, when permitted, despite my "whisking" them elsewhere.
-
vote: yuma
ashersky - Do you have any ideas about why you are still alive? Do you have regeneration?
-
I am Ian Chesterton, Jack-Of-All-Trades. I am a 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker.
Night 1, I watched ashersky. I did not receive any information.
Is this why you said you could have been roleblocked?
-
I was not jailkept N1. I took an action that did go through.
well I don't know what to say about that... I can't explain it.
-
vote: yuma
ashersky - Do you have any ideas about why you are still alive? Do you have regeneration?
This is an interesting question. After N1, I supposed that ashersky had some kind of power that prevents him from being targeted (Commuter or something like that), which would also explain his coming out that early (hoping to attract NKs). But now he full-claimed and didn't say anything like that.
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I am Ian Chesterton, Jack-Of-All-Trades. I am a 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker.
Night 1, I watched ashersky. I did not receive any information.
Is this why you said you could have been roleblocked?
Yes.
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I am The Tardis an ascetic Time Travel Enabler compulsive random Redirector.
Ascetic - all night actions on me, except kills, fail. This is probably there to stop paradoxes.
Time Travel Enabeler - Passive power. When I die, no one will be able to time travel anymore.
Cumpulsive random redirector - Each night I must target someone. Instead of their original target, they will target someone randomly among all the living players. If the person they ended up targeting is an illegal target, thier action counts as blocked instead.
N1 I targeted Walrus. This means that his roleblocking have been redirected from pps to someone else. Seems like it was directed to 2.7, or back to Walrus himself (Walrus would then count as blocked as roleblockers are usually not allowed to self target).
Or it was directed to me!
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I am The Tardis an ascetic Time Travel Enabler compulsive random Redirector.
Ascetic - all night actions on me, except kills, fail. This is probably there to stop paradoxes.
Time Travel Enabeler - Passive power. When I die, no one will be able to time travel anymore.
Cumpulsive random redirector - Each night I must target someone. Instead of their original target, they will target someone randomly among all the living players. If the person they ended up targeting is an illegal target, thier action counts as blocked instead.
N1 I targeted Walrus. This means that his roleblocking have been redirected from pps to someone else. Seems like it was directed to 2.7, or back to Walrus himself (Walrus would then count as blocked as roleblockers are usually not allowed to self target).
Or it was directed to me!
But if that were the case, it would have been redirected to you after N2, as Walrus travelled to N1 on N2. If you had targeted EFHW N1, her action would have still gone through and would have only been blocked later. (this is confusing and I hope you understand what I mean)
-
I am The Tardis an ascetic Time Travel Enabler compulsive random Redirector.
Ascetic - all night actions on me, except kills, fail. This is probably there to stop paradoxes.
Time Travel Enabeler - Passive power. When I die, no one will be able to time travel anymore.
Cumpulsive random redirector - Each night I must target someone. Instead of their original target, they will target someone randomly among all the living players. If the person they ended up targeting is an illegal target, thier action counts as blocked instead.
N1 I targeted Walrus. This means that his roleblocking have been redirected from pps to someone else. Seems like it was directed to 2.7, or back to Walrus himself (Walrus would then count as blocked as roleblockers are usually not allowed to self target).
Or it was directed to me!
But if that were the case, it would have been redirected to you after N2, as Walrus travelled to N1 on N2. If you had targeted EFHW N1, her action would have still gone through and would have only been blocked later. (this is confusing and I hope you understand what I mean)
Got it the wrong way. I meant: her action would have still been blocked, only to be activated later.
-
I have no idea what you are saying faust.
-
I am Ian Chesterton, Jack-Of-All-Trades. I am a 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker.
Night 1, I watched ashersky. I did not receive any information.
Is this why you said you could have been roleblocked?
Yes.
you got no message at all? or you got a message saying "no result", or some such? (don't quote it, though!)
-
I have no idea what you are saying faust.
He is saying that Walrus's roleblock was placed in N1 on N2. N1 actions were resolved twice. Once N1, and again N2. This means that the second time N1 was resolved (on N2), Walrus's roleblock was redirected, because he placed it there N2. According to you, you had already targeted me the first time N1 was resolved, and my action also placed the first time through, happened.
-
I have no idea what you are saying faust.
This is Night 1, according to you:
yuma jailkeeps EFHW
EFHW targets nkirbit
xeiron redirects Walrus
[other stuff]
And this is Night 2, according to you:
Walrus travels to N1 and blocks pps, gets redirected to yuma
So after N1, EFHW would be blocked. Only after N2 events are resolved, EFHW would no longer be blocked. But that's not what happened.
-
I am Ian Chesterton, Jack-Of-All-Trades. I am a 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker.
Night 1, I watched ashersky. I did not receive any information.
Is this why you said you could have been roleblocked?
Yes.
you got no message at all? or you got a message saying "no result", or some such? (don't quote it, though!)
I got no message at all. I asked again if it maybe was forgotten, only to be informed that all night results have already been delivered.
-
I have no idea what you are saying faust.
He is saying that Walrus's roleblock was placed in N1 on N2. N1 actions were resolved twice. Once N1, and again N2. This means that the second time N1 was resolved (on N2), Walrus's roleblock was redirected, because he placed it there N2. According to you, you had already targeted me the first time N1 was resolved, and my action also placed the first time through, happened.
Ah... then I have no idea. All I know is that I targeted EFHW. I Don't really mind being lynched as we are ahead it appears, but I would prefer not to especially as I thought mass claiming would help us find scum, not get me mislynched....
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I am Ian Chesterton, Jack-Of-All-Trades. I am a 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker.
Night 1, I watched ashersky. I did not receive any information.
Is this why you said you could have been roleblocked?
Yes.
you got no message at all? or you got a message saying "no result", or some such? (don't quote it, though!)
I got no message at all. I asked again if it maybe was forgotten, only to be informed that all night results have already been delivered.
So the 2.7 watcher conundrum has not been solved. I have to go for a bit, when I get back I'll update the list of roles and questions.
-
My last post inspired me to do the full night action list, as claimed.
Night 1
chairs
sudgy
Walrus
Jimmmmm
xeiron
ashersky
faust
Galzria/yuma
2.71828.....
EFHW
pingpongsam
nkirbit
14. jotheonah
-
something just went wrong.
-
something just went wrong.
What?
-
My last post inspired me to do the full night action list, as claimed.
Night 1
chairs investigates for Recruiting
sudgy doctors Walrus
Walrus roleblocks (from N2) pingpongsam
Jimmmmm does nothing
xeiron redirects Walrus
ashersky does nothing
faust watches ashersky
Galzria/yuma jailkeeps EFHW
2.71828..... follows Walrus
EFHW chooses nkirbit
pingpongsam ??? ???
nkirbit cops jotheonah
jotheonah cops sudgy
Night 2
chairs does nothing
Walrus vigs (from N1, nullified) pingpongsam
Jimmmmm doctors jotheonah
xeiron redirects ashersky
ashersky does nothing
faust tracks jotheonah
Galzria/yuma jailkeeps ashersky
2.71828..... voyeurs jotheonah
EFHW chooses faust
nkirbit travels with EFHW
jotheonah does nothing
-
Walrus, is it clear whether you can still vig on D2? I asked Voltaire what would happen if I tracked you, and he said I would receive no result, so maybe you can still vig.
-
Faust's list updated with results
Night 1
chairs investigates for Recruiting
sudgy doctors Walrus sudgy dies
Walrus roleblocks (from N2) pingpongsam faust is roleblocked
Jimmmmm does nothing
xeiron redirects Walrus
ashersky does nothing
faust watches ashersky doesn't get a result
Galzria/yuma jailkeeps EFHW EFHW not jailkept
2.71828..... follows Walrus Walrus did nothing
EFHW chooses nkirbit nkirbit gets a friend
pingpongsam ??? ???
nkirbit cops jotheonah joth did not time travel
jotheonah cops sudgy sudgy had weak modifier
Night 2
chairs does nothing
Walrus vigs (from N1, nullified) pingpongsam
Jimmmmm doctors jotheonah Jimmmmm lives
xeiron redirects ashersky
ashersky does nothing
faust tracks Jimmmmm (FTFY) he did target joth
Galzria/yuma jailkeeps ashersky
2.71828..... voyeurs jotheonah joth targeted with protective role
EFHW chooses faust faust gets 1-shot watcher
nkirbit time cops Walrus
jotheonah does nothing
[/quote]
-
Are watchers usually told that theself targeted their target?
If they are, Faust must have been blocked in some way.
If not, are we sure faust just did not get a result because nobody else targeted Ash?
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That posted accidentally. I was pretty much done. I'll just add that chairs learned there were no recruiting roles in the game (that changed after N1). And we know nkirbit was unable to time-cop Walrus b/c he had already been to N2.
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Are watchers usually told that theself targeted their target?
If they are, Faust must have been blocked in some way.
If not, are we sure faust just did not get a result because nobody else targeted Ash?
He should have gotten a "no one targeted ashersky" message.
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Walrus roleblocks (from N2) pingpongsam faust is roleblocked
I want to point out that my being blocked can't possibly come from Walrus, as I would have received results after N1 if that were the case.
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Walrus roleblocks (from N2) pingpongsam faust is roleblocked
I want to point out that my being blocked can't possibly come from Walrus, as I would have received results after N1 if that were the case.
good point. But why would pps roleblock you, or yuma jailkeep you? What do think happened?
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Walrus roleblocks (from N2) pingpongsam faust is roleblocked
I want to point out that my being blocked can't possibly come from Walrus, as I would have received results after N1 if that were the case.
good point. But why would pps roleblock you, or yuma jailkeep you? What do think happened?
That's a good question. I have to assume that pps roleblocked me because he thought I might be dangerous? But actually, it makes a lot more sense for scum to roleblock Walrus, if he is telling the truth. Maybe they thought they could get him lynched, so there was no need to, but... I don't know. Maybe ashersky is just lying scum and he has a role that cannot be watched.
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Are watchers usually told that theself targeted their target?
If they are, Faust must have been blocked in some way.
If not, are we sure faust just did not get a result because nobody else targeted Ash?
He should have gotten a "no one targeted ashersky" message.
Watchers generally see themselves targeting their target, at least that is how watchers have always played out on f.ds previously.
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I am going to add something that I just noticed from the setup and ask if anyone that is town had the ability to use their power night0? I was not able to do so.
At the end of each night, all nights in the “past” will be re-evaluated and the game state will be adjusted to account for these actions, beginning with N0.
.
Is it possible mafia was able to use their powers on night0 on future nights? Maybe arch was able to bus drive/pps was able to roleblock?
This is just a theory and I have nothing to back it up except what is said in the OP.
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So we have about four action that does not make immediate sense with the rest.
1. Walrus said he blocked pps but pps was probably not blocked.
2. 2.7 did not get a result from following Walrus even if walrus claims to have done something.
3. Yuma claims to have jailkept EFHW, but EFHW was apparently not jailkept.
4. Faust claims to have watched Ashersky, but got no results.
Me redirecting Walrus to 2.7 or to himself clears up the two first. It does not make sense to believe Walrus landed on Yuma or faust as they were both blocked from night1, not from night2.
I can now see two main scenarios excplaining the others.
A) pingpongsam blocked Yuma. Faust watched Ashersky, but Ashersky is Ascetic (mirroring my role). Ashersky is scum, and lied about his role.
B) Yuma is lying about his role, and never jailkept EFHW. He or Pingpongsam blocked Faust.
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Claims so far: REVISED
ashersky - Jenny, the Doctor's daughter - regeneration Enabler and Time-Locker. Has not locked any nights.
Walrus - River Song - Enabled, Regenerating, Time-Traveling Odd night Roleblocker/Even night Vig. Claims N1: roleblocked pps; N2: vigged pps. We currently have no verification for any of this. Contradicted by 2.7's claim.
Chairs -Susan Foreman - Fated Day 2 Tree Stump 1-Shot Psychic. N1 investigated recruitment. D2 cannot vote, is not counted in number of people.
Sudgy - Rory Williams - hated weak doctor. Verified by his flip. Probably targeted Walrus N1, was the only death N1.
Archetype - Davros - Mafia, Bus-driver.
jotheonah - Donna Noble - Non-consecutive night Modifier cop. Investigated sudgy N1. nkirbit says joth did not time travel N1, Jimmmmm targeted him and lived
EFHW - The Doctor - a compulsive enabled time traveling lonely innocent child, also has enabled regeneration. N1 took nkirbit to N2, nkirbit got neighborizer. N2 took faust to N3, faust got 1 shot watcher.
pps - The Master - Mafia, Time-traveling Ninja Roleblocker. Had regeneration? Who did he block N1?
2.7 - flavor? - One-shot follower. Claims he followed Walrus N1, and that Walrus took no actions. Contradicts Walrus's claim. One-shot voyeur - N2 joth was targeted by protection, consistent with Jimmmmm's weak doctor claim.
faust- Ian Chesterton - JOAT. 1-shot Watcher - N1 watched ashersky: no result message; 1-shot Tracker - N2 Jimmmmm targeted jotheonah.
Jimmmmm- flavor? - Universal Backup, now hated weak doctor. Targeted jotheonah and lived.
xeiron - The Tardis - Time travel enabler and compulsive redirector. Redirected Walrus N1, ashersky N2. Does not explain 2.7-Walrus contradiction. No confirmation.
yuma - Martha Jones - Alien jailkeeper. Targeted EFHW N1, ashersky N2. Contradicted by EFHW's successful N1 action.
nkirbit - flavor? - time cop. Jotheonah did not time travel N1. Unable to use action N2.
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I missed the ascetic part!
from wiki: "Ascetic is a role modifier (though it can function as a role in its own right) that causes a player to be immune to all actions at Night except kills. More precisely, Ascetic reflexively Roleblocks all actions taken against them except kills."
This explains faust's lack of result.
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I do have problems to find a plausible narrative where both Ashersky and Yuma is town.
We should probably lynch one of them.
Yuma sounds like the safest bet, as if we mislynch him, we lose a jailkeeper. Not that bad
If we mislynch Ashersky, EFHW and Walrus lose regeneration. This is worse
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I missed the ascetic part!
from wiki: "Ascetic is a role modifier (though it can function as a role in its own right) that causes a player to be immune to all actions at Night except kills. More precisely, Ascetic reflexively Roleblocks all actions taken against them except kills."
This explains faust's lack of result.
Ashersky did not claim Ascetic.
I did, and I speculate about whether Ashersky could also be one as that fit good as we already have pretty symetrical roles.
As mentioned, regeneration enabler. That's passive. In addition, I can "time lock" X number of nights. The role name there is "time locker." If I lock a night, nothing can be changed about it. I can go into more detail, if needed. As mentioned, I'm Jenny, the Doctor's daughter.
I have not locked any nights up to now, so I am not a valid excuse for Walrus's inconsistent claim.
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yeah, I see that now. Got ahead of myself there.
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ash- ascetic?
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So we have about four action that does not make immediate sense with the rest.
1. Walrus said he blocked pps but pps was probably not blocked.
why do you say pps wasn't blocked?
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So we have about four action that does not make immediate sense with the rest.
1. Walrus said he blocked pps but pps was probably not blocked.
why do you say pps wasn't blocked?
Because i do think we need his block to explain all of 2.7, yuma and faust not getting their expected results.
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Just checking in to confirm that xeiron got my role claim correct. I have no modifiers or passive abilities.
Still thinking about the claims. Can we be sure there isn't a sk roleblock out there.. Something else to consider. Or some similar role.
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Just checking in to confirm that xeiron got my role claim correct. I have no modifiers or passive abilities.
Still thinking about the claims. Can we be sure there isn't a sk roleblock out there.. Something else to consider. Or some similar role.
Well, the impressive lack of night kills speaks against that. It could be something like delayed kills, poison or an Arsonist, I guess.
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One thing I think we should look at is why would mafia target me (or anyone else who's powers aren't lining up with everyone else's) night1. Because I could see myself being the target of a town block of some sort (but that isn't what happened as town would have admitted to it).
i honestly don't see why mafia would have chosen me to block night1, I think given the day1 result I may have been a poor choice. Perhaps a reputation of somesort (I don't really have a rep of being good with PRs at all btw....)? But it might be worth looking for the others to figure out who is best.
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I do have problems to find a plausible narrative where both Ashersky and Yuma is town.
We should probably lynch one of them.
Yuma sounds like the safest bet, as if we mislynch him, we lose a jailkeeper. Not that bad
If we mislynch Ashersky, EFHW and Walrus lose regeneration. This is worse
I do agree with this point. Again, I don't mind being mislynched as we are so far ahead, but I would certainly prefer not to as I know it is a mislynch.
At some point EFHW do you want me to claim my redacted modifier? I wasn't going to if I was going to live through the night, but if I am going to die there is no reason to hold it back....
Has everyone claimed a modifier of some sort?
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Also: I am Clara Oswald.
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I do have problems to find a plausible narrative where both Ashersky and Yuma is town.
We should probably lynch one of them.
Yuma sounds like the safest bet, as if we mislynch him, we lose a jailkeeper. Not that bad
If we mislynch Ashersky, EFHW and Walrus lose regeneration. This is worse
I do agree with this point. Again, I don't mind being mislynched as we are so far ahead, but I would certainly prefer not to as I know it is a mislynch.
At some point EFHW do you want me to claim my redacted modifier? I wasn't going to if I was going to live through the night, but if I am going to die there is no reason to hold it back....
Has everyone claimed a modifier of some sort?
I think jotheonah is as close to being confirmed town as possible in this game, so you might as well full-claim.
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modifiers claimed:
sudgy - hated
chairs - fated
EFHW - compulsive
yuma - ?
xeiron - compulsive
I know I missed others....
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I do have problems to find a plausible narrative where both Ashersky and Yuma is town.
We should probably lynch one of them.
Yuma sounds like the safest bet, as if we mislynch him, we lose a jailkeeper. Not that bad
If we mislynch Ashersky, EFHW and Walrus lose regeneration. This is worse
I do agree with this point. Again, I don't mind being mislynched as we are so far ahead, but I would certainly prefer not to as I know it is a mislynch.
At some point EFHW do you want me to claim my redacted modifier? I wasn't going to if I was going to live through the night, but if I am going to die there is no reason to hold it back....
Has everyone claimed a modifier of some sort?
I think jotheonah is as close to being confirmed town as possible in this game, so you might as well full-claim.
He is confirmed town? Or have we confirmed his role as being true? Those are very different things.... and I will wait for EFHW to give the go ahead thank you very much...
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I do have problems to find a plausible narrative where both Ashersky and Yuma is town.
We should probably lynch one of them.
Yuma sounds like the safest bet, as if we mislynch him, we lose a jailkeeper. Not that bad
If we mislynch Ashersky, EFHW and Walrus lose regeneration. This is worse
I do agree with this point. Again, I don't mind being mislynched as we are so far ahead, but I would certainly prefer not to as I know it is a mislynch.
At some point EFHW do you want me to claim my redacted modifier? I wasn't going to if I was going to live through the night, but if I am going to die there is no reason to hold it back....
Has everyone claimed a modifier of some sort?
I think jotheonah is as close to being confirmed town as possible in this game, so you might as well full-claim.
He is confirmed town? Or have we confirmed his role as being true? Those are very different things.... and I will wait for EFHW to give the go ahead thank you very much...
He is confirmed town, as a weak role targeted him and didn't die.
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I do have problems to find a plausible narrative where both Ashersky and Yuma is town.
We should probably lynch one of them.
Yuma sounds like the safest bet, as if we mislynch him, we lose a jailkeeper. Not that bad
If we mislynch Ashersky, EFHW and Walrus lose regeneration. This is worse
I do agree with this point. Again, I don't mind being mislynched as we are so far ahead, but I would certainly prefer not to as I know it is a mislynch.
At some point EFHW do you want me to claim my redacted modifier? I wasn't going to if I was going to live through the night, but if I am going to die there is no reason to hold it back....
Has everyone claimed a modifier of some sort?
I think jotheonah is as close to being confirmed town as possible in this game, so you might as well full-claim.
He is confirmed town? Or have we confirmed his role as being true? Those are very different things.... and I will wait for EFHW to give the go ahead thank you very much...
He is confirmed town, as a weak role targeted him and didn't die.
Have you confirmed that Jimmmm's role is confirmed. Look I get your point, but don't just go around assuming things as true until they actually are.
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Ash, why have you not locked any nights yet?
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Have you confirmed that Jimmmm's role is confirmed. Look I get your point, but don't just go around assuming things as true until they actually are.
Look, e confirmed that jotheonah was targeted by a protective role. I confirmed that Jimmmmm targeted jotheonah. How much more do you need?
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Have you confirmed that Jimmmm's role is confirmed. Look I get your point, but don't just go around assuming things as true until they actually are.
Look, e confirmed that jotheonah was targeted by a protective role. I confirmed that Jimmmmm targeted jotheonah. How much more do you need?
I missed the part about 2.7, so that is probably enough. so fair enough.
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I am going to add something that I just noticed from the setup and ask if anyone that is town had the ability to use their power night0? I was not able to do so.
At the end of each night, all nights in the “past” will be re-evaluated and the game state will be adjusted to account for these actions, beginning with N0.
.
Is it possible mafia was able to use their powers on night0 on future nights? Maybe arch was able to bus drive/pps was able to roleblock?
This is just a theory and I have nothing to back it up except what is said in the OP.
That is interesting. I had no N0 actions. Anyone else?
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Nope, I had no N0 actions.
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xeiron - is there anything nkirbit could say that would explain my not being jailkept on N1?
My sugestion is that your action actually counts as being in the night you travel to, not from.
If so you have done your N2 and N3 action, but not a N1 action yet, and has therefore not been Jailkept.
Do you think this is a possibility? If not, things look bad for Yuma.
No, I don't. I took the action in N1.
I am The Doctor, (get ready) a compulsive enabled time traveling lonely innocent child. I also have regeneration, which is also enabled. xeiron's post clears up my confusion. I am required to pick someone to take to another time with me. That person gets a bonus. I thought they got to perform their action in the new time, but it looks like it actually interferes with their action-taking, as they are from then on ineligible to act in the time I take them to. I was confused b/c when faust didn't take an action in N3, I didn't see what the point of the time-traveling was.
N1 I took nkirbit to N2, N2 I took faust to N3. It sounds like they still performed their own actions in their original time frames, when permitted, despite my "whisking" them elsewhere.
Wait, are you sure about this? I thought that all time-travel roles took place in "step 0".. which means that even if you were jailkept, you would have already traveled out of night 1 to night 2. Or am I misunderstanding?
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I am going to add something that I just noticed from the setup and ask if anyone that is town had the ability to use their power night0? I was not able to do so.
At the end of each night, all nights in the “past” will be re-evaluated and the game state will be adjusted to account for these actions, beginning with N0.
.
Is it possible mafia was able to use their powers on night0 on future nights? Maybe arch was able to bus drive/pps was able to roleblock?
This is just a theory and I have nothing to back it up except what is said in the OP.
That is interesting. I had no N0 actions. Anyone else?
Neither have I. I think any townplayer would have mentioned it when they claimed, so we can safely assum that only scum, or no one, could do an action on N0.
I do seem to remember that N1 is the earliest possible night you could timetravel to. No N0, 'negative' nights, or anything like that allowed. I am not sure where I have that from, though.
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xeiron - is there anything nkirbit could say that would explain my not being jailkept on N1?
My sugestion is that your action actually counts as being in the night you travel to, not from.
If so you have done your N2 and N3 action, but not a N1 action yet, and has therefore not been Jailkept.
Do you think this is a possibility? If not, things look bad for Yuma.
No, I don't. I took the action in N1.
I am The Doctor, (get ready) a compulsive enabled time traveling lonely innocent child. I also have regeneration, which is also enabled. xeiron's post clears up my confusion. I am required to pick someone to take to another time with me. That person gets a bonus. I thought they got to perform their action in the new time, but it looks like it actually interferes with their action-taking, as they are from then on ineligible to act in the time I take them to. I was confused b/c when faust didn't take an action in N3, I didn't see what the point of the time-traveling was.
N1 I took nkirbit to N2, N2 I took faust to N3. It sounds like they still performed their own actions in their original time frames, when permitted, despite my "whisking" them elsewhere.
Wait, are you sure about this? I thought that all time-travel roles took place in "step 0".. which means that even if you were jailkept, you would have already traveled out of night 1 to night 2. Or am I misunderstanding?
And my ability does not stop people from time traveling.
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So I guess it depends on whether or not people think that "taking someone else to time travel" is a "time traveling action" that I wouldn't block or a "normal action" that could be blocked...
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Yuma, what does your alien modifier mean? You just look like a JK to me.
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Yuma, what does your alien modifier mean? You just look like a JK to me.
Alien means that it stops everything from targeting a player. Normally a player that is JKed can still be investigated. Tracker, cop, what have you. With an Alien modifier the player JKed can't be investigated...
or more succinctly from the wiki:
Some Jailkeepers not only protect their target from all kills, but also render its target untargetable by all other actions during that Night. This variant is also known as Alien.
hence why I used it on EFHW day1. I only wanted to protect her and I didn't want to stop anyone else from being investigated, which I think would be a negative utility to town.
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Another point we should consider is that there was no NK tonight.
Possible solutions:
A) scum can time travel their kill.
B) Ashersky is scum, but was jailkept (only works if Ash is not ascetic)
C) Scum killed jotheonah
D) Scum killed Ash (only works if neither Ash nor Yuma is scum)
E) Scum chose to no-kill
I am leaning towards B.
A could certainly work, but would also make Walrus look worse. Or do we think scum would kill Sudgy over time traveling N1?
Alternative C, D, and E seems pretty far-fetched.
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So I guess it depends on whether or not people think that "taking someone else to time travel" is a "time traveling action" that I wouldn't block or a "normal action" that could be blocked...
unvote. I'll ask Voltaire
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Vote: Ashersky
And because I just can't stop trying to direct PRs here is my thought about them
Walrus should block whoever of Yuma and Ash we do not lynch. I am assuming we mislynch becaus we probably win with a correct lynch.
Jimm should not target Yuma or Ash, but somone else. That way, if Jimm dies, we know there exists bad persons still running free. Yuma or Ash could not have killled him as the living among them was roleblocked by Walrus.
EFHW should consider taking somone to N1. If it do not work, Yuma might speak true.
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Vote Count 3.3
Walrus (1): 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): Walrus
yuma (1): faust
ashersky (1): xeiron
Not voting (6): ashersky, EFHW, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, nkirbit, yuma
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends on Thursday, January 16 at 11 AM forum time
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ok, I heard from Voltaire, and my action going thru does NOT contradict yuma saying he jailkept me.
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I agree with xeiron that we should try to make a plan for N3. I'm not sure if his is the one I would choose. Let's figure out who to lynch first. Walrus is looking the worst right now.
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we also have the puzzle of what happened to faust N1. It seems unlikely to me that pps would have chosen him to roleblock N1. Could have thought he saw a breadcrumb? Or, N0, choosing blind, he could have picked faust.
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ok, I heard from Voltaire, and my action going thru does NOT contradict yuma saying he jailkept me.
well that is a relief. I will not claim my modifier then...
I agree, despite semi-defending him all game long--that walrus does come off looking bad. 2.7 and the sudgy stuff is compelling enough perhaps.
I suppose I could JK ashersky again and if there isn't a NK consider lynching him tomorrow? Scum could manipulate to an extent I would imagine however.
So mostly I think we should offer a couple of things for various PRs to do... don't set anything in stone, but give semi-specific guidance for WIFOM purposes....
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Town seems pretty overpowered right now, so scum N0 actions might have provided some balance.
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Town seems pretty overpowered right now, so scum N0 actions might have provided some balance.
I kinda agree, but losing two players day1 and day2 is going to make any game look lopsided....
Again, I am curious about other player's modifiers or lack of modifiers... if many players don't have them then joth's role is even less effective, but I think every player is likely to have one and I know some haven't explicitly stated what theirs is...
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Those of you familiar with Dr. Who, look at this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg334507#msg334507)post, and tell us if the flavor names make sense with the roles.
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Town seems pretty overpowered right now, so scum N0 actions might have provided some balance.
I kinda agree, but losing two players day1 and day2 is going to make any game look lopsided....
Again, I am curious about other player's modifiers or lack of modifiers... if many players don't have them then joth's role is even less effective, but I think every player is likely to have one and I know some haven't explicitly stated what theirs is...
I actually mean from the start, given the roles claimed, town seems OP. Walrus has a powerful role and is claiming regeneration. IC is also a powerful role, and I have regeneration. My "take a friend to another time" thing is negative utility, but not that bad. xeiron's redirector is negative utility, too. We also have 5 cops of different sorts, and a back up.
Is it strange to have scum busdriver and town redirector?
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at this point, we should use Joth as a cop, not use your modifier to test him. So everyone should say their modifier, if they haven't already, or state that you don't have one.
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Town seems pretty overpowered right now, so scum N0 actions might have provided some balance.
I kinda agree, but losing two players day1 and day2 is going to make any game look lopsided....
Again, I am curious about other player's modifiers or lack of modifiers... if many players don't have them then joth's role is even less effective, but I think every player is likely to have one and I know some haven't explicitly stated what theirs is...
I actually mean from the start, given the roles claimed, town seems OP. Walrus has a powerful role and is claiming regeneration. IC is also a powerful role, and I have regeneration. My "take a friend to another time" thing is negative utility, but not that bad. xeiron's redirector is negative utility, too. We also have 5 cops of different sorts, and a back up.
Is it strange to have scum busdriver and town redirector?
Perhaps... it is possible we are facing 2 remaining mafia rather than 1....
I don't necessarily think it is odd to have a bus driver and a compulsive redirector... I think both have been added to add to the hectic nature of this game in conjunction with time traveling.
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at this point, we should use Joth as a cop, not use your modifier to test him. So everyone should say their modifier, if they haven't already, or state that you don't have one.
Alright, my modifier is "Macho"
Like I said this is a modifier that I think mafia is unlikely to be given (possible, but it is a modifier that generally gets attached to town roles for balancing purposes)
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Town seems pretty overpowered right now, so scum N0 actions might have provided some balance.
I kinda agree, but losing two players day1 and day2 is going to make any game look lopsided....
Again, I am curious about other player's modifiers or lack of modifiers... if many players don't have them then joth's role is even less effective, but I think every player is likely to have one and I know some haven't explicitly stated what theirs is...
I actually mean from the start, given the roles claimed, town seems OP. Walrus has a powerful role and is claiming regeneration. IC is also a powerful role, and I have regeneration. My "take a friend to another time" thing is negative utility, but not that bad. xeiron's redirector is negative utility, too. We also have 5 cops of different sorts, and a back up.
Is it strange to have scum busdriver and town redirector?
Perhaps... it is possible we are facing 2 remaining mafia rather than 1....
I don't necessarily think it is odd to have a bus driver and a compulsive redirector... I think both have been added to add to the hectic nature of this game in conjunction with time traveling.
4 full mafia menbers in a team is way to much in a 13 player game (counting Chairs out).
It is possible that Chairs is the fourth scum-member, though, if we do not have to lynch him to lose.
It is also possible that we have one mafia and one SK left.
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I agree with xeiron that we should try to make a plan for N3. I'm not sure if his is the one I would choose. Let's figure out who to lynch first. Walrus is looking the worst right now.
There are several reasons why I think Walrus is not mafia.
- He pushed Archetype at a critical movement D1
- I do not believe in two Scum roleblockers on the same team
- I do not belive neither Walrus nor pingpongsam would have regeneration if there where no SKs, Vigs or other NK they might be targeted by. EFHW would probably not have it either, as she would be the only one with enabled regeneration in a setup where enabeling multiple persons seems to be a theme.
- He have come by honest and consistent in his claims.
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Those of you familiar with Dr. Who, look at this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg334507#msg334507)post, and tell us if the flavor names make sense with the roles.
I actually have some thoughts on this, but I want the remaining flavor claims from Jimmmm and Nkirbit before I say them.
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Also: I am Clara Oswald.
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Jimm perhaps should not claim his flavor so he can communicate his target should he turn up dead.
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It just now struck me how similar roles pps, walrus and EFHW have?
All three of them (enabeled)time-traveling (enabeled)regenerating roleblockers.
PPS, and Walrus in addition are able to kill. EFHW can instead gift people with new powers.
I mean, so similar roles almost have to be part of separate factions.
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There are a lot of similar roles in this game. My and Joth's role appear to be similar, we just cop different things. Your role and Ashersky's role appear to be similar.
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Ok, then.
ashersky's flavor name gives me pause. Very minor character and don't see why she should enable regeneration (I would expect the TARDIS to do that, or a time lord). According to the wiki, Jenny didn't even regenerate when she was killed.
More worryingly, though, is faust. Ian Chesterton is not from the 2009-on series, like every other claimed person (including ashersky) is. pps's fakeclaim was also from the old series (his real flip was in both). Did Archetype fake claim a character?
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Hey guys, obviously there's a whirlwind of activity and I haven't had time to process it all. Unfortunately, as you may have seen in another thread, I will be relatively LA this weekend through Monday, so I will only be able to participate peripherally. I am in fact sitting on an airplane right now.
My reads are extremely cursory right now. My initial thought was that xeiron looked scummy, because of the limited utility and verifiability of his role. But now I don't actually think so...it seems that scum would have to be more subtle than that at this point. yuma seems to have been cleared of inconsistencies, although I find his D1 no lynch push to be questionable, so I don't think he's totally off the table. I do tend to believe ash is town at this point. I think that we should pick through the faust / Jimmmmm / jotheonah situation with a fine tooth comb...the fact that we seem to have "cleared" some "pseudo-ICs" is a little troubling to me...sure it would be great, if true. But clearing ICs may be a gambit scum would have to make at this point, while maintaining a relatively safe vantage point.
I will have more time to reread later and investigate for myself.
I'm thinking at this point I may just give myself up to be town-directed. Let me know what you think about that EFHW. For example, I was considering shooting chairs N4, just because, well that's the only way to kill him just in case he's evil, I might be able to substantiate my claim some more, and he's not doing a whole lot right now (no offense chairs). Or I could shoot someone else. Or I could block someone D3. Or whatevs.
I did not have any N0 actions. I even asked Voltaire specifically if I could travel to negative nights lol. I am still hoping it might be somehow advantageous to travel to night 4 billion.
I don't think the fact that I shot pps when he was already lynched means I can return to N2. For example, that bullet could have been theoretically redirected, or whatever. We could ask Volt though.
pps was totally my evil roleblocking time-traveling counterpart, as I predicted. That theory of mine was totally right and is part of the reason I had strong suspicions of pps D2. I guess you might think that if I were scum, I could just modify and claim my partner's role, I guess. But that's not the case. Why wouldn't he just claim that then? I am now not sure if there would be anyone else with regeneration in the game.
Was that all the questions? They're about to close the doors. But I should be able to check in when I get to Atlanta.
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Walrus we will probably make a N3 plan, keep checking in.
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Everyone take some time, think through all these claims, and ask questions.
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I'm surprised by Walrus's reluctance to look for "semi-ICs".. it seems scummy to me to try and prevent players from becoming near-confirmed town. Almost like Teproc in Chocolate factory, now that we can talk about that game.
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Imagine the following setup.
Mafia: pps, Archetpe, Ashersky.
Sk: Walrus
Town: the rest
Then we each faction have:
- One time traveling, regenerating, roleblocker. This is the most powerful member. (EFHW, Walrus and pingpongsam)
In addition both town and scum have:
- One enabeler. (Xeiron+Ashersky)
- One PR capable of redirecting. (Xeiron + Archetype)
In addition Town have:
- 2,7 + faust completing the investigative quartet for town.
- Joth-nkirbit making an additional investigative duo for town.
- Jimm makes sure the symmetry is not broken right from the start D1.
- Sudgy - weak doctor
- Yuma - jailkeeper
- Chairs - tree stump
These are a little harder to place.
Scum have:
- ninja, to deal with 2,7 +faust (pps)
- The ability to lock a night, to give them control over time traveling.
I cant help but feel I have solved the setup. Everything fits!
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Imagine the following setup.
Mafia: pps, Archetpe, Ashersky.
Sk: Walrus
Town: the rest
Then we each faction have:
- One time traveling, regenerating, roleblocker. This is the most powerful member. (EFHW, Walrus and pingpongsam)
In addition both town and scum have:
- One enabeler. (Xeiron+Ashersky)
- One PR capable of redirecting. (Xeiron + Archetype)
In addition Town have:
- 2,7 + faust completing the investigative quartet for town.
- Joth + nkirbit making an additional investigative duo for town.
- Sudgy + Yuma - protectors that deals differently with targeting scum
- Jimm makes sure the symmetry is not broken right from the start D1.
- Chairs - tree stump
Scum have:
- ninja, to deal with 2,7 +faust (pps)
- The ability to lock a night, to give them control over time traveling.
I cant help but feel I have solved the setup. Everything fits!
And just after I posted, it strikes me that Yuma and Faust is a pair as well. They are both doctor variant.
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I'm surprised by Walrus's reluctance to look for "semi-ICs".. it seems scummy to me to try and prevent players from becoming near-confirmed town. Almost like Teproc in Chocolate factory, now that we can talk about that game.
I don't really agree. I mean I see what you are saying, but I don't see it as specifically a scummy trait, but rather one that scum can use, but I think town is just as likely to express doubt and make sure that claims are what they seem--doing their due diligence as we can too often give too much town credit where it isn't due... I just did it this game (as town) with joth when I didn't realize the full potential of 2.7's and faust's claims in regard to him...
As for Teproc, I don't think that is what he did from a mod point of view. Maybe others would disagree. I saw it more as him trying to pretend how he would react as town to that situation and simulating wanting to cover all the bases... as that is kinda his meta (but I guess that is beside the point)
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I cannot see anyone other that Ashersky that fits as Mafia.
Walrus fits better as serial killer, than as town.
No one else fits as scum.
The question is who to lynch first.
Ashersky or Walrus.
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I agree with xeiron that we should try to make a plan for N3. I'm not sure if his is the one I would choose. Let's figure out who to lynch first. Walrus is looking the worst right now.
New attempt on a plan form me.
D3: Lynch Ashersky: (because he is potentially more dangerous if he is ascetic or time traveling or something)
He flips scum.
N3:
Yuma jailkeeps Walrus (important)
Everyone else do as they wish.
D4: Lynch Warlus.
Victory!
If you want ideas for N3:
Nkirbit can investigate Walrus (confirming Yuma is alien)
EFHW might want to try taking someone to N1 (to check yuma)
Jim might want to weak doctor Yuma or me (but beware that scum !Xeiron might redirect you elsewhere for the towncred).
I keep out out of the way.
...
I guarantee that Ashersky will not flip town. If he do, go to N3 as if I am scum.
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I guarantee that Ashersky will not flip town. If he do, go to N3 as if I am scum.
???
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I guarantee that Ashersky will not flip town. If he do, go to N3 as if I am scum.
???
that should read ???
I don't like emoticons
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Not ascetic.
No time locking yet because I can only lock nights that have passed. So on N1 I could only lock N0, but why? Last night I could have locked N1, but it didn't seem worth it. Tonight I could lock N2 to maintain no deaths (I.e., scum couldn't return there to kill someone). That was the type of situation I was waiting for.
Xeiron has been tunneling me for the entire game, without a case. He seems to think he's solved a complex closed setup blind and POE'd me as scum. It's annoying, but probably the same town Xeiron who thought he solved my Shakespeare game and wasn't even close. I'm just going to ignore anything he says from now on, as well as leave him out of the lynch pool for now.
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Town seems pretty overpowered right now, so scum N0 actions might have provided some balance.
Or some folks are lying.
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Last night I could have locked N1, but it didn't seem worth it.
Can you clarify this? Why didn't you think it was worth it?
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Not ascetic.
No time locking yet because I can only lock nights that have passed. So on N1 I could only lock N0, but why? Last night I could have locked N1, but it didn't seem worth it. Tonight I could lock N2 to maintain no deaths (I.e., scum couldn't return there to kill someone). That was the type of situation I was waiting for.
Xeiron has been tunneling me for the entire game, without a case. He seems to think he's solved a complex closed setup blind and POE'd me as scum. It's annoying, but probably the same town Xeiron who thought he solved my Shakespeare game and wasn't even close. I'm just going to ignore anything he says from now on, as well as leave him out of the lynch pool for now.
There have only been two ordinary nights.
Somehow Ashersky thinks there have been three.
We have already concluded that only scum - if any - could submitt actions on N0...
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And you specifically know that locking N0 was an option for you? Or are you just speculating?
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I guarantee that Ashersky will not flip town. If he do, go to N3 as if I am scum.
???
I mean to say that I aboslutely no clue who is scum if Ashersky flips town.
There is no mafia-narratives that makes sense for anybody but Ashersky.
And the only narratives I have not checked is my own, so I guess I have to be scum if Ashersky is not.
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And you specifically know that locking N0 was an option for you? Or are you just speculating?
Guessing. My point was I can only lock nights in the past.
And Xeiron against with ridiculous horseshit. How have we confirmed anything about N1?
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Can we vote yet? I feel like I'm ready to vote.
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Can we vote yet? I feel like I'm ready to vote.
Some of us have started, so voting should be fine. But we should probably wait some more before actually lynching.
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What does the macho modifier do?
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What does the macho modifier do?
Cannot be protected from nightkills. Doctors won't save you.
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Those of you familiar with Dr. Who, look at this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg334507#msg334507)post, and tell us if the flavor names make sense with the roles.
I actually have some thoughts on this, but I want the remaining flavor claims from Jimmmm and Nkirbit before I say them.
I'm not flavour claiming.
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Those of you familiar with Dr. Who, look at this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg334507#msg334507)post, and tell us if the flavor names make sense with the roles.
I actually have some thoughts on this, but I want the remaining flavor claims from Jimmmm and Nkirbit before I say them.
I'm not flavour claiming.
I already shared my thoughts. But why not?
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Those of you familiar with Dr. Who, look at this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9823.msg334507#msg334507)post, and tell us if the flavor names make sense with the roles.
I actually have some thoughts on this, but I want the remaining flavor claims from Jimmmm and Nkirbit before I say them.
I'm not flavour claiming.
I already shared my thoughts. But why not?
So I can use it to say who I'm targeting Tonight.
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that's legit. I'm open to suggestions on how to use my power.
I don't think I want to bother with yuma, given that he volunteered to be targeted by my power. Either he's telling the truth or he was planning to kill me.
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my main suspects are Walrus, yuma and ashersky. Maybe xeiron.
What do you all think of this plan - we lynch Walrus, three of the cops target yuma: joth - modifier; nkirbit - time travel; Jimmmmm - weak doctor. xeiron targets chairs. yuma targets me. faust targets me. ashersky locks N2. I'll take joth to N17 or something. 2.7 hang out. Then we take stock.
We could have yuma and faust target ashersky instead. Having faust watch me does add some protection, since they will probably double up on kills tonight. I need to check something with Voltaire, too.
Thoughts?
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I'm suspicious of faust based on flavor. so I don't want to trust him too much. It's weak, but it's not that weak. The ONLY other claim that's from old Doctor Who instead of new Doctor Who was PPS's fake claim.
I doubt this is an intentional thing from the mod, but it's not so unbelievable that the mod did the fake claims last and was out of new characters.
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Alternatively,
we lynch Walrus
Jimmmmm, joth, nkirbit each choose between yuma and ashersky to investigate.
yuma and faust both target me.
ashersky locks N2.
2.7 hangs out.
I take joth to the future.
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xeiron targets chairs or 2.7
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yeah, that works for me. slight preference for lynching ashersky over walrus, but whatever.
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I'm suspicious of faust based on flavor. so I don't want to trust him too much. It's weak, but it's not that weak. The ONLY other claim that's from old Doctor Who instead of new Doctor Who was PPS's fake claim.
I doubt this is an intentional thing from the mod, but it's not so unbelievable that the mod did the fake claims last and was out of new characters.
So you think he fakeclaimed that he saw Jimmmmm target joth? It's possible.
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I show up, and have to read like 2 pages to catch up. The first thing that stuck out to me:
Okay, going.
I am a Universal Backup. I inherited sudgy's role, and am now a Weak Doctor.
I targeted jotheonah last Night.
There is no time traveling or enabling mentioned in either of my PMs.
As I am alive, jotheonah must be Town unless I was Roleblocked.
This also explains e's Night 2 result, and makes me believe his claim:
1 shot voyeur used N2- targeted at Jotheonah. Jotheonah was targeted by protection N2.
I'll keep my flavour name to myself so I can use it to communicate who I'm targeting Tonight.
I am Ian Chesterton, Jack-Of-All-Trades. I am a 1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker.
Night 1, I watched ashersky. I did not receive any information.
Night 2, I tracked Jimmmmm. He did target jotheonah.
What this claim means:
- e is likely telling the truth. His claim mirrors mine nicely.
- together with e's information (jotheonah was targeted by protection), Jimmmmm's claim (UB/Weak Doctor), and my tracking result, I think we can clear jotheonah. Also this clears Jimmmmm.
I am going to vote: yuma for being contradicted by the IC.
These make me think that Jimmmmm, Faust, Jotheonah are all town (along with myself). Basically this adds up to myself, Faust, and Jimmmm confirming Jotheonah as town, and at this point I don't think we have 4 scum left which would allow three of us to "IC" the fourth one. Basically this whole thing involves too many people for there to be scum (in my opinion). Maybe scum jumped in at the end (which would be Faust as he had the last claim) but I doubt that.
I am not sure what to do with all the other time-confusion stuff that was claimed right now. need more time to process.
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walrus seems to be the more powerful one. Maybe not, but it's usually safest to stay as close to your real role as possible (that's what I hear, anyway ;)).
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Ok with EFHW's plan.
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Although, if we can lynch scum today, maybe we get a flawless win? (Assuming a 3-man scum team, given the lack of night kills.)
How sure are we on who scum is? I've felt walrus is scum forever, of course.
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Hey, so I actually made it in with a minimum of grief, so here are a few thoughts before bed.
A fair few people seem to have me out on the front of the lynch list. I don't really understand it but ok. After my claim, sure. After Arch's flip, fine, maybe I was bussing. But after pps' lynch...bussing to the point of self-destruction? Decreasingly probable.
I do admit my role looks SKish. No denial there. But that's not true either.
I did try to breadcrumb my role a little bit, in case you care (yeah yeah yeah, could be faked, whatever). Talking about the chrono-vig D1. Also, remember when I got all indignant at someone, like, "How the hell do you know there isn't a time traveling IC doctor?" It was a little forced and intentionally so, to broadcast the idea that I believed such powerful roles could exist, based on my own. I was pretty confident EFHW had some tricks up her sleeve besides just IC.
I'm not too concerned because town seems to have a huge lead at this point. Lynching me won't help you though. I'm just happy a few of my reads were actually reasonably good this game.
Which leads me to my next point...my own reads list, starting with the scummiest:
First of all, the e/faust/Jimmmmm thing. This is what I was talking about...the fact that they all confirmed jotheonah does make jo townier in my mind (and I thought that already). But verifying the same thing is a rather safe claim to make, and look at what we've got...one shots? Can't be verified further. Universal Backup? Super easy to fake. These are exactly the kinds of claims that scum would have to make right now to have a chance of surviving to the endgame--subtle, innocuous, pro-town-seeming. Anything more brazen or verifiable could possibly lead to them getting trapped and just losing. It is my hypothesis that there is scum here, although I haven't had time to analyze the claims thoroughly to see how they interact.
After that: xeiron. If you're looking for a SK candidate I think he's a better choice. I'm not sold there is an SK at all though, given the paucity of night kills. But he still may be scum.
After that: yuma I guess? Just a feeling mostly. I think he's probably town though.
I think jo and ash are town. ash's erroneous tunneling of me is slightly annoying, but it feels towny enough. I've had a town read on jo since that wagon ran up on him at the beginning of D2. Leaning town on nkirbit too. Did I miss anyone?
Off to bed now.
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First of all, the e/faust/Jimmmmm thing. This is what I was talking about...the fact that they all confirmed jotheonah does make jo townier in my mind (and I thought that already). But verifying the same thing is a rather safe claim to make, and look at what we've got...one shots? Can't be verified further. Universal Backup? Super easy to fake. These are exactly the kinds of claims that scum would have to make right now to have a chance of surviving to the endgame--subtle, innocuous, pro-town-seeming. Anything more brazen or verifiable could possibly lead to them getting trapped and just losing. It is my hypothesis that there is scum here, although I haven't had time to analyze the claims thoroughly to see how they interact.
So your top scum read is basically just people whose claims agree? How many scum do you think there are? e claimed, then I claimed something which supports his claim, then faust claimed something which supports my claim. Surely the only one of us who doesn't get Town points for that is faust?
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Easiest way to see if Jimmmmm is lying is to run him up to L-1. But then, if he's not lying, he dies.
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Easiest way to see if Jimmmmm is lying is to run him up to L-1. But then, if he's not lying, he dies.
You're right! The easiest way to see if I'm lying is to lynch me.
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Easiest way to see if Jimmmmm is lying is to run him up to L-1. But then, if he's not lying, he dies.
You're right! The easiest way to see if I'm lying is to lynch me.
Well, if you are lying, you won't die. And then we'd lynch you.
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my main suspects are Walrus, yuma and ashersky. Maybe xeiron.
What do you all think of this plan
- we lynch Walrus,
- three of the cops target yuma: joth - modifier; nkirbit - time travel; Jimmmmm - weak doctor.
xeiron targets chairs.
yuma targets me.
faust targets me.
ashersky locks N2.
I'll take joth to N17 or something.
2.7 hang out. Then we take stock.
We could have yuma and faust target ashersky instead. Having faust watch me does add some protection, since they will probably double up on kills tonight. I need to check something with Voltaire, too.
Thoughts?
You will probably find that faust is effectively roleblocked by having you dragged him to N3 already. Count him out of any plans.
Ashersky may very well lock N2, but since all time travelers already have been there, It will not matter, and we can never confirm it.
Also, in the plan above Ashersky may kill Jimm, and make yuma look really bad.
The plan below is better, as it will stop Ashersky from killing.
I think Jimm should target the scummiest person who can kill him. Not someone who cannot kill him.
Even better would it be to have Ashersky lynched, and Walrus and yuma bocking each other. If one of them are lying, and doing something else than blocking, they vould be blocked so they will do no harm.
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Alternatively,
we lynch Walrus
Jimmmmm, joth, nkirbit each choose between yuma and ashersky to investigate.
yuma and faust both target me.
ashersky locks N2.
2.7 hangs out.
I take joth to the future.
We still have the problem of killing jimm.
I could kill jimm freely. Ash or yuma could, and hope he was targeting the other one.
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Alternatively,
we lynch Walrus
Jimmmmm, joth, nkirbit each choose between yuma and ashersky to investigate.
yuma and faust both target me.
ashersky locks N2.
2.7 hangs out.
I take joth to the future.
Doesn't look too bad, but based on what nkirbit said, I don't believe I will be allowed to take a night action N3.
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Jimmmmm: you're probably right, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't leaving out any possibilities. In fact faust is my top suspect right now, pending further reads. May as well vote: faust
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Jimmmmm: you're probably right, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't leaving out any possibilities. In fact faust is my top suspect right now, pending further reads. May as well vote: faust
Can you tell me your case on me? I'm interested.
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Even better would it be to have Ashersky lynched, and Walrus and yuma bocking each other. If one of them are lying, and doing something else than blocking, they vould be blocked so they will do no harm.
I like this plan.
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Jimmmmm: you're probably right, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't leaving out any possibilities. In fact faust is my top suspect right now, pending further reads. May as well vote: faust
Can you tell me your case on me? I'm interested.
Me too.
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Also, ashersky is acting like caught scum!ashersky I think. I will vote: ashersky for now. Could switch to Walrus.
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For Walrus's conspiracy theory to be right, they would all 3 have to be in on it, b/c both e and faust saw Jimmmmm target joth.
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I have a selfish reason for not wanting to lynch ashersky, which is that he probably does enable regeneration, which I may need to stay alive tonight. I agree that faust is not cleared. He's definitely not mafia, but he could be something else. If people don't want to lynch walrus, then my next choice would be either faust or yuma. I don't think we have more than two people to find, so while a perfect game would be cool, we don't have enough information, and basic POE should work fine.
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faust, how did you choose your target N2?
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... because now that I think about it, Walrus would have been a much better choice. You could have confirmed if he targeted pps or not.
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I have a selfish reason for not wanting to lynch ashersky, which is that he probably does enable regeneration, which I may need to stay alive tonight. I agree that faust is not cleared. He's definitely not mafia, but he could be something else. If people don't want to lynch walrus, then my next choice would be either faust or yuma. I don't think we have more than two people to find, so while a perfect game would be cool, we don't have enough information, and basic POE should work fine.
This is a valid point about Ashersky.
While I like lynching Ashersky best I am also fine with Walrus.
I am not fine with lynching anyone else that those two, so I will switch to Walrus before you switch to Faust or Yuma, if i cannot convince you Ash is the safest lynch choice.
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... because now that I think about it, Walrus would have been a much better choice. You could have confirmed if he targeted pps or not.
I tried to do this. I asked Voltaire what result I would get from someone who targeted pps, and was informed that I would receive "noone" because pingpongsam was not a valid target at the time. So I couldn't clear Walrus. I then tried to track scum, and thought Jimmmm was most likely after a reread (a had e as potential candidate before the reread).
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My main issue with ash is that he didn't travel back in time and lock night1. I just think that was far and away the best decision for town to make.. And don't get why he didn't do it.
Especially considering that he thinks walrus is scum. If he thinks that, and sudgy was the only death n1... We don't appear to have an actual night kill, right?
Him not locking night 1 just reads as super scummy to me.
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vote:faust
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... because now that I think about it, Walrus would have been a much better choice. You could have confirmed if he targeted pps or not.
I tried to do this. I asked Voltaire what result I would get from someone who targeted pps, and was informed that I would receive "noone" because pingpongsam was not a valid target at the time. So I couldn't clear Walrus. I then tried to track scum, and thought Jimmmm was most likely after a reread (a had e as potential candidate before the reread).
I just asked about something similar, and I got a answer that corresponds with this.
Fast is talking true.
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vote:faust
Reasons?
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vote count please
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vote:ashersky
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I guess I'll do whatever is needed, JK is a nice versatile role for both blocking and protecting... I think at this stage in the game blocking is probably better than protecting.
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What we know for sure:
1. Sudgy was the only death N1.
2. Sudgy was a weak role who targeted Walrus N1.
3. There were no deaths N2.
Ashersky has maintained that he sees Walrus as scum, in posts such as the following:
How sure are we on who scum is? I've felt walrus is scum forever, of course.
Now, given that Ashersky thinks that Walrus is scum, the logical conclusion from his point of view is that Sudgy died from targeting Walrus. Given this, he should think that there were no deaths that resulted from mafia action.
Yet we see the following:
No time locking yet because I can only lock nights that have passed. So on N1 I could only lock N0, but why? Last night I could have locked N1, but it didn't seem worth it. Tonight I could lock N2 to maintain no deaths (I.e., scum couldn't return there to kill someone). That was the type of situation I was waiting for.
Ashersky says that he has a desire to lock N2 to prevent scum from going there to kill someone. Fair enough. But why didn't night1 qualify for the same lock? According to Ashersky's narrative, it is his belief that Sudgy died from targeting Walrus. Given this is the case, why is N1 "not worth it", but N2 is "the type of situation I was waiting for." Ashersky should think they are the same, right? Neither night had a death caused by scum, according to him. So why is he viewing them differently in terms of desirability to lock.
I really think we should lynch Ashersky. I think the above is perhaps showing his knowledge that Sudgy was targeted by the scum team night1. At the very least, it's inconsistent, and I think that were he town, he would 100% want to lock night1 ASAP to try and block a night kill.. especially on himself.
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Vote Count 3.4
Walrus (1): 2.71828.....
ashersky (3): xeiron, faust, nkirbit
faust (2): Walrus, jotheonah
Not voting (4): ashersky, EFHW, Jimmmmm, yuma
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends on Thursday, January 16 at 11 AM forum time
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vote: Nkirbit
Complete and total fabrication and lies about N1, my beliefs about it, and what was best for town.
Go back and reread D2 and you will see plenty of reasons why town does NOT lock N1. Nkirbit gambit is the only sensible narrative for just how far off the deep end he's gone.
I see walrus as likely SK, Nkirbit as PPS/arch partner.
With howOP the town seems, and with likely no partners left, the lurky will be the scum partner. All of a sudden Nkirbit decides to start providing content after sleeping his way through the game so far? Dude has been unmemorable at best, a drag to town at worst, and now he thinks he's hot shit?
Hilarious.
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You're the fucking worst, ashersky. A player makes a case on you and you respond by insulting him. Jimm makes a case on you in chocolate factory and you make multiple posts berating him for thinking how fucking stupid you are. Really?
It's a game, but you continually make it personal, and I'm fucking sick of it.
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Dude, civility pledge.
I attacked your game play. You attacked me.
This game can be frustrating, especially when you are clearly losing the game. No need to get personal, man.
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Whoa guys. Walk away from the computer. 10 minutes.
vote:faust
Reasons?
Your flavor claim is off. And you claimed an investigative result that contained no new information. I've been thinking the third scum was a sleeper, not someone we've been suspecting.
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Keep it civil, everyone. We're all here to have fun.
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I'm not even going to respond to Ashersky's case on me because there isn't a case.
There are plenty of reasons why town doesn't want to lock N1... care to explain them to me? So Walrus can go back and roleblock N1? But you think Walrus is scum, so why would you want to do that?
You think there is both a scum team and a serial killer? Where in the world are all the kills going, then? Into the future? That's certainly a possibility.. but if that's the case, they're probably coming back to N1 at some point. Locking N1 to block kills seems pretty attractive.
Maybe the kills went into players with regeneration. That's a possibility. If that's the case, wouldn't going to N1 and locking it so you can't be later killed N1 be a good option? Otherwise scum might travel to N1 and unlock multiple kills by killing you. Maybe there's a kill out on EFHW night2 and scum was planning to go back to N1 to kill you to kill you, and EFHW since she would no longer have regeneration. Certainly a possibility, right?
What if you yourself get killed before you have a chance to use your powers. Wouldn't that be a waste of your power? It seems to be a pro-town power, especially considering the lead that town has, so why not use it N2 to ensure that you at least get some use out of it?
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vote: Nkirbit
Complete and total fabrication and lies about N1, my beliefs about it, and what was best for town.
Go back and reread D2 and you will see plenty of reasons why town does NOT lock N1. Nkirbit gambit is the only sensible narrative for just how far off the deep end he's gone.
I see walrus as likely SK, Nkirbit as PPS/arch partner.
With howOP the town seems, and with likely no partners left, the lurky will be the scum partner. All of a sudden Nkirbit decides to start providing content after sleeping his way through the game so far? Dude has been unmemorable at best, a drag to town at worst, and now he thinks he's hot shit?
Hilarious.
nkirbit you are frustrated. That is fair. Your reaction wasn't ideal obviously, but I think the better reaction is to do what I am about to do...
vote: ashersky
scum!ashersky attacks players in game for ingame stuff. It isn't the ideal way to get an argument through in my opinion and a good way to get that message across is to lynch him for it. This has put me over the edge to vote for ashersky. It is extremely similar to what he did with Jimmmm in Chocolate Factory.
I think ash should be the lynch today. I'll JK Walrus?
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1) You're the fucking worst, ashersky. 2) A player makes a case on you and you respond by insulting him. 3) Jimm makes a case on you in chocolate factory and you make multiple posts berating him for thinking how fucking stupid you are. 4) Really?
It's a game, but you continually make it personal, and I'm fucking sick of it.
In case it's needed, I've numbered your points for you so I can refute them:
1) That's a matter of opinion. I disagree. It's also a personal attack, unless you mean I'm the "fucking worst" player of mafia games. Which I'd disagree with as well.
2) I didn't insult you. I disparaged your play this game as lurky, and noted how all of a sudden you are active and trying to push a mislynch through. That's scummy.
3) Jimmmmm did not make a case on me in Chocolate Factory. I'd love to see that quoted. Jimmmmm did, however, have a guilty result on me in Chocolate Factory. Jimmmmm and I had an argument during that game, which was resolved after we both died. If you read the game and the Scum QT afterward, things may be clearer for you.
4) Yes, really. I think you have a really good chance of being scum.
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nkirbit you are frustrated. That is fair. Your reaction wasn't ideal obviously, but I think the better reaction is to do what I am about to do...
Really? Wasn't ideal? Since when did this community become so accepting of personal attacks? Or it is just because it's me?
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scum!ashersky attacks players in game for ingame stuff. It isn't the ideal way to get an argument through in my opinion and a good way to get that message across is to lynch him for it. This has put me over the edge to vote for ashersky. It is extremely similar to what he did with Jimmmm in Chocolate Factory.
Again, someone show me how nkirbit's personal attack is related to Jimmmmm in Chocolate Factory. Jimmmmm and I resolved that issue, which was a very real one. This one just seems to be an extreme overreaction by scum!nkirbit and a general acceptance of that behavior by players that usually are against it.
It sounds like you want to policy lynch me for being me, which is pretty ridiculous.
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nkirbit you are frustrated. That is fair. Your reaction wasn't ideal obviously, but I think the better reaction is to do what I am about to do...
Really? Wasn't ideal? Since when did this community become so accepting of personal attacks? Or it is just because it's me?
i never said i accepted it... sure i could have used a stronger wording i suppose but i sisn;t want to exacerbate the situation and make it worse.
what i will tell you is that when i read your first post with your vote on nkirbit i thought "nkirbit is not going to like that and is going to react negatively"
he did, it was over the top, but it was expected to react because anyone would react poorly to what you posted about him, doen't excuse poor behavior
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they are similar because you as scum use a tactic which discredits cases against you by discrediting the player themselves...
they aren't exactly the same, but you have done this time and time again as scum
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I'm not even going to respond to Ashersky's case on me because there isn't a case.
There are plenty of reasons why town doesn't want to lock N1... care to explain them to me? So Walrus can go back and roleblock N1? But you think Walrus is scum, so why would you want to do that?
You think there is both a scum team and a serial killer? Where in the world are all the kills going, then? Into the future? That's certainly a possibility.. but if that's the case, they're probably coming back to N1 at some point. Locking N1 to block kills seems pretty attractive.
Maybe the kills went into players with regeneration. That's a possibility. If that's the case, wouldn't going to N1 and locking it so you can't be later killed N1 be a good option? Otherwise scum might travel to N1 and unlock multiple kills by killing you. Maybe there's a kill out on EFHW night2 and scum was planning to go back to N1 to kill you to kill you, and EFHW since she would no longer have regeneration. Certainly a possibility, right?
What if you yourself get killed before you have a chance to use your powers. Wouldn't that be a waste of your power? It seems to be a pro-town power, especially considering the lead that town has, so why not use it N2 to ensure that you at least get some use out of it?
You make plenty of good points in here for why we don't want to lock N1.
I disagree with you about my power--I think it is pretty anti-town, and am more and more convinced it's better not to use it at all. If scum can time travel, they go back and kill a player on an old night (giving up their current night's kill), and that's that.
But town has many more reason to time travel -- cop/block/doc/track/watch. If you think Walrus is town, and you are a watcher, you go back to N1 and see who really killed sudgy. That's a great reason to leave N1 unlocked. And all nights unlocked, too.
As for lack of kills? We've had town roles that redirect. We know there are multiple bulletproof roles. We know that time traveling is an option, so maybe kills happen in the future.
This is RMM. Anything could be happening.
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i never said i accepted it... sure i could have used a stronger wording i suppose but i sisn;t want to exacerbate the situation and make it worse.
what i will tell you is that when i read your first post with your vote on nkirbit i thought "nkirbit is not going to like that and is going to react negatively"
he did, it was over the top, but it was expected to react because anyone would react poorly to what you posted about him, doen't excuse poor behavior
Whatever, man.
This is a game. Not only that, it is a game where we are constantly suspecting each other of lying. We are going to have to say things about each other's play during the game that isn't the sweetest of nothings. Overreacting to a negative opinion of your game play is not useful or helpful.
Here's a real world example. I played baseball in high school. I was a pitcher. I wasn't fantastic, and I recall giving up a huge homerun in a pretty big game. After the game, if my fellow players said "dude, that pitched wasn't the best choice in that situation" they would be completely right and I'd be an ass for screaming at them.
It feels like we're all forgetting this. Even the mod didn't care that nkirbit blew up like that.
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they are similar because you as scum use a tactic which discredits cases against you by discrediting the player themselves...
they aren't exactly the same, but you have done this time and time again as scum
Go check my most recent town performance(s) and tell me I don't do the same thing.
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Whoa guys. Walk away from the computer. 10 minutes.
vote:faust
Reasons?
Your flavor claim is off. And you claimed an investigative result that contained no new information. I've been thinking the third scum was a sleeper, not someone we've been suspecting.
Can you explain further? Is it just the thing about old and new?
It's well known on this forum in places other than forum games that I really am clueless about Dr. Who. In case anyone things I am lying about this as a scum tactic, I believe you can look in the Dr. Who thread, as well as maybe the Random Stuff thread.
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Whatever, man.
This is a game. Not only that, it is a game where we are constantly suspecting each other of lying. We are going to have to say things about each other's play during the game that isn't the sweetest of nothings. Overreacting to a negative opinion of your game play is not useful or helpful.
Here's a real world example. I played baseball in high school. I was a pitcher. I wasn't fantastic, and I recall giving up a huge homerun in a pretty big game. After the game, if my fellow players said "dude, that pitched wasn't the best choice in that situation" they would be completely right and I'd be an ass for screaming at them.
It feels like we're all forgetting this. Even the mod didn't care that nkirbit blew up like that.
Then take it up with the mod.
I am just playing a game. I am not interested in getting into a conversation of who did what and what was right or wrong... that isn't my place. You asked and so I told you why I used the wording I did. My whole goal is to move past this and get back to the game... you seem to want to really dwell on it. If you do... like I said take it up with nkirbit and voltaire--outside of the game.
I like you both and hope you move past it.
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they are similar because you as scum use a tactic which discredits cases against you by discrediting the player themselves...
they aren't exactly the same, but you have done this time and time again as scum
ashersky also distorted nkirbit's play - nkirbit was instrumental in the Archetype lynch and I can't see any way he could possibly be mafia. Also, ashersky has lurked more than I have ever seen before, and certainly more than nkirbit. Maybe he was v/la, but there's certainly no basis for him to criticize nkirbit for lurking.
I think town is doing great, and we'll still win if I'm nk'd, so I'm alright with lynching ashersky. I'll still have a chance to give joth a bonus, and maybe I'll live anyway!
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they are similar because you as scum use a tactic which discredits cases against you by discrediting the player themselves...
they aren't exactly the same, but you have done this time and time again as scum
Go check my most recent town performance(s) and tell me I don't do the same thing.
I am not interested in your town performances. It is your choice if you use the same scummy meta as town as you do when scum, not my choice. I just react to it and in this case I want to vote for you. You are one of the good choices outside of your meta, add it in and you become my top lynch choice.
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If I put ashersky to L-1, he will certainly self-hammer, so any last minutes objections?
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they are similar because you as scum use a tactic which discredits cases against you by discrediting the player themselves...
they aren't exactly the same, but you have done this time and time again as scum
ashersky also distorted nkirbit's play - nkirbit was instrumental in the Archetype lynch and I can't see any way he could possibly be mafia. Also, ashersky has lurked more than I have ever seen before, and certainly more than nkirbit. Maybe he was v/la, but there's certainly no basis for him to criticize nkirbit for lurking.
I think town is doing great, and we'll still win if I'm nk'd, so I'm alright with lynching ashersky. I'll still have a chance to give joth a bonus, and maybe I'll live anyway!
You said you were going to take Joth to N15, right? Are you sure that Joth won't get his bonus until N15?
For me, i traveled to N2 and got the bonus N2.. but I'm not sure if it was a next night or the night that you traveled to when I got the bonus.
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It looks like a next night thing from my PM, but I'm not 100% sure.
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Whatever, man.
This is a game. Not only that, it is a game where we are constantly suspecting each other of lying. We are going to have to say things about each other's play during the game that isn't the sweetest of nothings. Overreacting to a negative opinion of your game play is not useful or helpful.
Here's a real world example. I played baseball in high school. I was a pitcher. I wasn't fantastic, and I recall giving up a huge homerun in a pretty big game. After the game, if my fellow players said "dude, that pitched wasn't the best choice in that situation" they would be completely right and I'd be an ass for screaming at them.
It feels like we're all forgetting this. Even the mod didn't care that nkirbit blew up like that.
Then take it up with the mod.
I am just playing a game. I am not interested in getting into a conversation of who did what and what was right or wrong... that isn't my place. You asked and so I told you why I used the wording I did. My whole goal is to move past this and get back to the game... you seem to want to really dwell on it. If you do... like I said take it up with nkirbit and voltaire--outside of the game.
I like you both and hope you move past it.
I've tried, but the mod is not answering.
My point is that my alignment shouldn't matter when it comes to what gets said. Which is ironic, because for most of you, my alignment doesn't matter, beating up on me is just fine.
But if I'm critical of anyone that you guys really like, like Jimmmmm or nkirbit, I've committed a cardinal sin.
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I'd prefer being modkilled or replaced to being mislynched again.
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Goko is actually powered by Forum Games posts. Recent server issues are entirely due to those gerbils not being active enough in their mafia games, damn it.
lol
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You are lynching me to defend the honor of nkirbit, and that is not in the spirit of the game at all.
If you want "ashersky" out of the game, instead of finding scum, then unvote and let Voltaire replace me. I'd rather out from the forums than this.
Town's so close to a perfect win.
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I've tried, but the mod is not answering.
My point is that my alignment shouldn't matter when it comes to what gets said. Which is ironic, because for most of you, my alignment doesn't matter, beating up on me is just fine.
But if I'm critical of anyone that you guys really like, like Jimmmmm or nkirbit, I've committed a cardinal sin.
ash... I really like you.
If I didn't I would have co-hosted a bunch of games with you. This isn't personal, at least not from me, I am trying to keep that part out of it
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You are lynching me to defend the honor of nkirbit, and that is not in the spirit of the game at all.
If you want "ashersky" out of the game, instead of finding scum, then unvote and let Voltaire replace me. I'd rather out from the forums than this.
Town's so close to a perfect win.
that isn't what we are doing at all!!!
my vote on you was for stuff you did before nkirbit ever responded. i don't want you out of the game I want to lynch scum which i think you are... you are making this personal by thinking that it is when it is in fact not at all
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Just to be clear, if Ash gets replaced, I'm going to be immediately pushing for the lynch of whoever replaces him. My desire to lynch Ash is not personal.
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You are lynching me to defend the honor of nkirbit, and that is not in the spirit of the game at all.
If you want "ashersky" out of the game, instead of finding scum, then unvote and let Voltaire replace me. I'd rather out from the forums than this.
Town's so close to a perfect win.
We are lynching you because you are scum, not to defend nkirbit.
and I think you know that.
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If I put ashersky to L-1, he will certainly self-hammer, so any last minutes objections?
Go ahead.
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We should make sure to hear from Joth regarding Faust. I also know nothing about Doctor Who (I watched an episode once. It was pretty good), so would like to hear what he has to say.
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We should make sure to hear from Joth regarding Faust. I also know nothing about Doctor Who (I watched an episode once. It was pretty good), so would like to hear what he has to say.
I think any lead that focuses on flavor is going to lead to a dead end and shouldn't be pursued...
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You are lynching me to defend the honor of nkirbit, and that is not in the spirit of the game at all.
If you want "ashersky" out of the game, instead of finding scum, then unvote and let Voltaire replace me. I'd rather out from the forums than this.
Town's so close to a perfect win.
This is AtoE. nkirbit made a valid point. There was no reason to get upset or mean about it. We all have things pointed out about our posts all the time. Some people will certainly disagree about whether N1 should have been locked, but it was a good thing to bring up for discussion. Outing now is what is not in the spirit of the game, and we will certainly lynch you rather than wait for a replacement.
You, yuma, Walrus have been equally suspicious in my mind, but your reaction points to extreme defensiveness, rather than the towny appreciation of nkirbit raising a pertinent issue that I and others would have hoped for, even if you do find it to be mistaken.
I also find nkirbit's initial reaction upsetting, and would love if Voltaire would just delete it.
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We need to take care of some business before lynching anyone.
- yuma and Walrus, you should do as xeiron suggested and roleblock each other.
- Jimmmmmm - if the first letter of your flavor name is in A-M, doctor yuma/asherksy. If it's in N-Z, doctor Walrus/ashersky (depending on who is lynched).
- xeiron please don't redirect anyone with a night action!
- nkirbit, joth you pick who to target. I'll check with Voltaire about the next night thing.
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xeiron is compulsive so he should target 2.7 who is out of actions
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vote ashersky L-1
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I have to go for a bit, so I'll unvote for now. Still willing to vote yuma or Walrus.
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pingpongsam was the Master, the mafia-aligned enabled Time Traveling ninja Roleblocker.
As mentioned, regeneration enabler. That's passive. In addition, I can "time lock" X number of nights. The role name there is "time locker." If I lock a night, nothing can be changed about it. I can go into more detail, if needed. As mentioned, I'm Jenny, the Doctor's daughter.
I have not locked any nights up to now, so I am not a valid excuse for Walrus's inconsistent claim.
Does anyone else enable anything? Ashersky claims to enable only regenration. PPS was enabled, but I don't see anything about regeneration.
I was a little surprised that no one else had any enabling. But I guess not. I will be willing to follow EFHW into an Ash lynch, but probably not otherwise.
PPE: 20. (I started talking to my parents on the phone)
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There was no reason to get upset or mean about it.
This is what I don't get. I was neither upset nor mean. The fact that you all are saying this means clearly that you are just taking nkirbit's side of this argument. It makes no sense to me. Read my post. Read his post. You tell me who crossed the line.
I may not butter up my posts, but that's just me, at all times. They aren't mean or vindictive, like nkirbit's. And you can see in mulitiple posts since it happened that nkirbit meant it that way, as he's neither apologized or retracted any part of it.
If I was modding this game, the thread would have been locked, and punishment would have been meted out by now. But since I'm the victim, clearly it isn't warranted.
That's as big a problem as nkirbit's post was.
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You're the fucking worst, ashersky. A player makes a case on you and you respond by insulting him. Jimm makes a case on you in chocolate factory and you make multiple posts berating him for thinking how fucking stupid you are. Really?
It's a game, but you continually make it personal, and I'm fucking sick of it.
Quoting for reference. Maybe this should be my new sig. It seems to represent more of you than Robz's line there now.
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ash... take this out of the game. talk to voltaire or nkirbit about it, if you already did wait for them to respond
again we are voting for you for things that occurred before nkirbit's post...
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pingpongsam was the Master, the mafia-aligned enabled Time Traveling ninja Roleblocker.
As mentioned, regeneration enabler. That's passive. In addition, I can "time lock" X number of nights. The role name there is "time locker." If I lock a night, nothing can be changed about it. I can go into more detail, if needed. As mentioned, I'm Jenny, the Doctor's daughter.
I have not locked any nights up to now, so I am not a valid excuse for Walrus's inconsistent claim.
Does anyone else enable anything? Ashersky claims to enable only regenration. PPS was enabled, but I don't see anything about regeneration.
I was a little surprised that no one else had any enabling. But I guess not. I will be willing to follow EFHW into an Ash lynch, but probably not otherwise.
PPE: 20. (I started talking to my parents on the phone)
I have claimed time travel enabeler.
We have also found that regeneration does not appear in the title. Pingpongsam prbably did have regen, even though it is not in his flip.
So we have one town enabeler(me), and one scum enabeler(Ash).
Both of us enable the same three persons: EFHW(town), pingpongsam(Mafia), and Walrus(probably SK)
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So we have one town enabeler(me), and one scum enabeler(Ash).
Both of us enable the same three persons: EFHW(town), pingpongsam(Mafia), and Walrus(probably SK)
I think xeiron is right, except flip the alignments of him and me. Xeigrim is otherwise spot on, I think.
ash... take this out of the game.
As you wish.
Officially requesting replacement, per players' request.
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Vote Count 3.5
Walrus (1): 2.71828.....
ashersky (4): xeiron, faust, nkirbit, yuma
faust (2): Walrus, jotheonah
nkirbit (1): ashersky
Not voting (2): EFHW, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends on Thursday, January 16 at 11 AM forum time
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So we have one town enabeler(me), and one scum enabeler(Ash).
Both of us enable the same three persons: EFHW(town), pingpongsam(Mafia), and Walrus(probably SK)
I think xeiron is right, except flip the alignments of him and me. Xeigrim is otherwise spot on, I think.
ash... take this out of the game.
As you wish.
Officially requesting replacement, per players' request.
that isn't what i said...
if ash outs, i am /out too cause this just became incredibly stupid.
ash i wasn't mad at you before, but now i am!
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i request that ash not be allowed to out and is either modkilled or tree stumped if action must be taken
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THREAD LOCKED
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THREAD UNLOCKED
nkirbit and ashersky have been modkilled for violations of the Civility Pledge. Both players have apologized to each other via PM of their own volition. As the Mod of this game, I am happy with this resolution and I consider the matter ended (and my ruling is final anyway, as you will see...).
nkirbit was Clara Oswald, the town-aligned Time Travel Cop.
ashersky was Rassilon, the mafia-aligned Regeneration Enabler and 1-shot Time Locker.
Game over: Town + Survivor win!
Full setup information, night actions, QT links, etc. to come. I understand that some of you may want to comment on the end of this game, but please remember that there were 3 (nearly) full days of some crazy, RMM-y mafia prior to this and I'd hate for them to get lost in the shuffle.
Thank you all very much for playing! :)
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Well then. I guess that's something. There's a Survivor in this game huh ? Who's the hiding Jack Harkness who fakeclaimed his flavor ? faust I assume ?
Speccy is here : http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/7WY34wUAH5wCK
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You might say it is over Voltaire, but I for one am still upset and put out with ash's behavior--not toward nkirbit--but toward me and others in this game.
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Development QT - http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/D3ViLs3P4qZ7p
Mod QT - http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/KNxhmd7t9fdxG
Mafia QT - http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/nWeDpFhjLdg
Survivor QT - http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Q7Nt2x9J3vF3
Neighborhood QT - http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/6NCdCkfHgq3
Speccy 1 - http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/47nAbJNSFnp
Speccy 2 - http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/7WY34wUAH5wCK
xeiron was the survivor, and he is also MVP.
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The forums are running extremely slowly for me. I am trying to post end-of-game information as quickly as possible, but I only have a few minutes left tonight. Some information may not get posted until tomorrow.
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For me as well.
We were about to lynch ash anyway, so I guess I'm happy to consider this a perfect game for town.
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I will say very funny that I JKed ash to protect him, when he was the mafia performing a kill....
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You might say it is over Voltaire, but I for one am still upset and put out with ash's behavior--not toward nkirbit--but toward me and others in this game.
I'm sorry you were upset yuma. It wasn't my intention to make anyone upset.
I think I'm going to quit playing mafia, at least for awhile. I think that's what the community would prefer.
I'm going to focus fully on modding, which I am much better at.
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I think I'm going to quit playing mafia, at least for awhile. I think that's what the community would prefer.
This is why I am upset ash. This exactly!
You do whatever you want to do. Play, don't play. I personally would like you to stick around. But what I don't like is you threatening to leave because "everyone wants you to" when it is very apparent to me that this is not what everyone wants!
Do whatever you want, but do it because you want to. Don't blame it on us!
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You can find full PMs in the Mod QT.
Town
Doctor - EFHW - compulsive enabled Time-Traveling Lonely Innocent Child
Ian - faust - Jack-of-All-Trades (1-shot Watcher, 1-shot Tracker)
Barbara - 2.71828..... - Jack-of-All-Trades (1-shot Follower, 1-shot Voyeur)
Susan - chairs - fated Tree Stump compulsive 1-shot Psychic
River - Walrus - enabled Time-Travelling odd-night Roleblocker, even-night Vigilante
Donna - jotheonah - non-consecutive night Modifier Role Cop
Rory - sudgy - hated weak Doctor
Martha - Galzria/yuma - macho Alien Jailkeeper
Clara - nkirbit - Time Travel Cop
K9 - Jimmmmm - Universal Backup
Survivor
TARDIS - xeiron - ascetic Time Travel Enabler compulsive random Redirector
Mafia
Davros - Archetype - Busdriver
Master - pingpongsam - enabled Time Traveling ninja Roleblocker
Rassilon - ashersky - Regeneration Enabler and 1-shot Time Locker
I think mod thoughts are going to have to wait for tomorrow (I have lots of them!) If you want to ask any questions, please do so and I'll answer them then.
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I wanted to talk about the setup, which I think was skewed far to town's benefit:
Ascetic Time Travel Enabler and Compulsive Random Redirector
Universal Backup
Time Travel Cop
Macho Alien JK
Hated Weak Doctor
Non-Consecutive Modifier Cop
Time Traveling alternating Roleblocker/Vig
Tree Stump Psychic
JOAT
JOAT
Time Traveling Benefit Granting IC
vs.
Busdriver
Ninja + Roleblocker
Bulletproof Enabler + 1-Shot Time Locker
I just don't see scum having enough powers to overcome 6 investigative roles, 2 blocking roles, 1 killing role, plus a backup to pick those up as they go.
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I was the target for a whole bunch of actions Night1 and 2. How weird...
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xeiron is also MVP.
Absolutely agree with this.
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Game note: I totally missed the xeiron claim, but I would have lynched Ash then xeiron or xeiron then Ash because with two enablers, one just has to be scum. So town had this game all the way after we managed to get Archetype and PPS.
On a different note:
Voltaire, I really really enjoyed this game. Using Dr. Who to introduce the time-traveling aspect was awesome. Not too much in game flavor.....but the overarching Doctor flavor that you used was awesome though. I have not played enough mafia to have much of a history of games to draw upon, but this was my favorite so far. (based on completed games only) I thought you did a great job as the mod.
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Here's hoping the forums aren't crap tomorrow so I can discuss a few things. As it is, I'm seeing 2 minute load times per page request.
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I agree with Ash that it was skewed for town a bit. But I think that opinion is also skewed a bit because we lynched scum D1.
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NIGHT ACTIONS
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Original N1 actions and results:
N1
jotheonah investigates sudgy - returns "hated weak"
e follows Walrus - nothing
nkirbit cops jotheonah - returns N1
sudgy docs Walrus - nothing
faust watches ashersky - nothing
chairs psychics "recruit" - returns "Does not exist"
yuma jailkeeps EFHW - nothing (roleblocked)
xeiron redirects Walrus (to xeiron) - nothing
pps ninja kills sudgy - successful
pps ninja roleblocks yuma - successful
DEATHS: sudgy
Jimmmmm activates, acquires sudgy's role
N2
Walrus travels to N2 and shoots pps - successful
EFHW takes nkirbit to N2 - nkirbit gains 1-shot neighborizer
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Original N2 actions and results:
N1
Walrus travels to N1 and blocks PPS
N2
NKIRBIT IS A VT TONIGHT
ashersky kills xeiron - fails because ash is jailkept
yuma jailkeeps ashersky - successful
Jimmmmm docs jotheonah - nothing
xeiron redirects ashersky (to yuma) - fails because ash is jailkept
faust tracks Jimmmmm - returns "jotheonah"
Walrus arrives from N1 and shoots pps - fails (not a valid target)
EFHW arrives w/nkirbit from N1
e voyeurs jotheonah - returns "Protection"
DEATHS: none
nkirbit neighborizes xeiron
N3
EFHW takes faust to N3 - faust gains 1-shot Watcher recharge (I rolled numbers, came up 2, so Watcher since 2nd in PM)
Updated N1 actions and results:
N1
Walrus arrives from N2 and blocks PPS (redirected to xeiron) - nothing (ascetic)
jotheonah investigates sudgy - returns "hated weak"
e follows Walrus - nothing (Walrus was roleblocked via ascetic)
nkirbit cops jotheonah - returns N1
sudgy docs Walrus - nothing
faust watches ashersky - nothing
chairs psychics "recruit" - returns "Does not exist"
yuma jailkeeps EFHW - nothing (roleblocked via PPS)
xeiron redirects Walrus (to xeiron) - successful
pps ninja kills sudgy - successful
pps ninja roleblocks yuma - successful
DEATHS: sudgy
Jimmmmm activates, acquires sudgy's role
N2
Walrus travels to N2 and shoots pps - successful
EFHW takes nkirbit to N2 - nkirbit gains 1-shot neighborizer
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I did make some mod mistakes here - I was unaware Watchers should see themselves, and I opted for no PM instead of "No Result" for roleblocks/nothing to see (which is ugh as I know now). Apologies for any confusion this caused.
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Companion bonuses (for traveling with EFHW):
Doctor none
Ian recharge
Barbara recharge
Susan return D3 if Doctor alive D3
River Song alternating QTs
Donna time travel
Rory loses hated
Martha loved
Clara 1-shot neighbor
K9 1-shot jailkeeper
TARDIS loved
Davros 1-shot lynchproof
Master 1-shot Vig
Rassilon 1-shot Governor
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I agree with Ash that it was skewed for town a bit. But I think that opinion is also skewed a bit because we lynched scum D1.
Losing Arch D1 and PPS D2 clearly makes it look and feel worse than it was, but objectively looking at the roles list makes me think that the hope was that all the redirection (and possibly time travel) would negate the power of town's roles.
I just don't think it would have been enough. Imagine we lynched sudgy on D1. Jimmmmm becomes the weak doctor, but had he targeted scum, he just would have died and we'd have no clue who he targeted. Arch could have bus driven someone, which maybe helps.
I think yuma was spot on with the early mass claim idea, and Xeigrim with his crazy plans and early solving of the set up really made the difference.
EFHW is a fantastic IC, too.
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Good game everyone. Thanks for modding, Volt.
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xeiron was scary good this game.
EFHW was annoyingly good.
That EFHW had regen was one of those things I couldn't have guessed. OP IC imo.
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OK, balance was already brought up so I'm going to fight the loading times to put my initial thoughts out there. ;)
Part of me says that this game was balanced. The other part of me says that because scum was lynched D1 and D2, there's no way to know if this game was balanced. In my opinion, mafia played terribly in this game (and it didn't help that town did ok). That's what decided this game, not the actions.
The TARDIS as survivor is there to cause chaos for everyone. With scum going down D1 and D2, mafia lost a potential ally as xeiron (rightly) clearly threw his full weight behind getting a win with town. Scum also lost their two strongest roles in the 2 of the 3 of them that went down. With a ninja Roleblocker and a Busdriver (and the Time Locker to lock down any favorable night), I thought scum was well-equipped. The D1 scum lynch was just deadly.
Of course there's tons more I want to (and will later!) talk about. What's up with that Tree Stump? All those Bulletproofs, really? I have both mod- and flavor- reasons for everything, and I'll get to them eventually. ;D
Thanks to those who have said they enjoyed the roles - designing this was a real treat, and I may run a (INCREDIBLY simplified) game in the normal queue that uses the time-travel mechanic in the future...who knows!
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Thanks for running this, Voltaire! Cool roles and game mechanics!
Yeah, what was up with the tree-stump? Was there a catch? I still think that it's a weird role to have in this type of game, because I'd be extremely disappointed to draw that role.. it does not look like a fun role to draw.
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I sorely disappointed myself. My role was entirely too much fun to throw away so soon. I could have carried the game with no teammates if I hadn't played so poorly trying to keep them out of hot water D1. Lesson learned. I think ashersky and I did really well D2 setting it up so that he wasn't the obvious scum partner. I mean, really it was almost telepathic. He apologized for bussing me in the QT but it was the plan all along once momentum built beyond recovery on me as far as I could tell. That I took the hammer was the icing.
The WIFOM surrounding walrus was too tempting, literally. I should have bit.
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I agree with Ash that it was skewed for town a bit. But I think that opinion is also skewed a bit because we lynched scum D1.
I do not think it was skewed for Town.
As a survivor I was ready to join whatever side that was winning.
Now that we got a lucky scumlynch D1, I played for town the whole game.
If we had lynched town D1, and maybee D2, I would totally play for scum, fakeclaiming and redirecting to create inconsistencies that I would not explain, creating mor mislynches.
I think if town had gotten a bad start, this game would probably just as skewed for scum.
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That EFHW had regen was one of those things I couldn't have guessed. OP IC imo.
It was my hope that by giving scum their own regen player, and the Enabler, scum could figure out that the IC also had regen (flavor-wise, all the Time Lords had regen). EFHW's bonus-giving role could give bonuses to scum, too, including an extra kill (!!!). The time-travel "kidnapping" is also negative utility, as nkirbit discovered. Now, there are LOTS of way to play this, and I thought that the discovery was going to be part of the fun of the role. We'll see if EFHW enjoyed it or not.
And honestly, if it's your contention that it is an OP IC, well, isn't that what the Doctor is anyway? ::) 8)
One thing I will not deny - this setup was swingy as hell. It's my contention/intention it was balanced and swingy both, but I know that's not necessarily for everyone. That's why I advertised this as Role Madness with an emphasis on the Madness.
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I sorely disappointed myself. My role was entirely too much fun to throw away so soon. I could have carried the game with no teammates if I hadn't played so poorly trying to keep them out of hot water D1. Lesson learned. I think ashersky and I did really well D2 setting it up so that he wasn't the obvious scum partner. I mean, really it was almost telepathic. He apologized for bussing me in the QT but it was the plan all along once momentum built beyond recovery on me as far as I could tell. That I took the hammer was the icing.
The WIFOM surrounding walrus was too tempting, literally. I should have bit.
I agree with PPS here that we had a good D2. PPS and I actually fit well together as scum. We've had some crap results, though.
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Yeah, the kidnapping certainly was negative utility.. I really would have much rather had the info that Walrus traveled to N1 than the QT with Xeiron, as fun as that was.
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That EFHW had regen was one of those things I couldn't have guessed. OP IC imo.
It was my hope that by giving scum their own regen player, and the Enabler, scum could figure out that the IC also had regen (flavor-wise, all the Time Lords had regen). EFHW's bonus-giving role could give bonuses to scum, too, including an extra kill (!!!). The time-travel "kidnapping" is also negative utility, as nkirbit discovered. Now, there are LOTS of way to play this, and I thought that the discovery was going to be part of the fun of the role. We'll see if EFHW enjoyed it or not.
And honestly, if it's your contention that it is an OP IC, well, isn't that what the Doctor is anyway? ::) 8)
One thing I will not deny - this setup was swingy as hell. It's my contention/intention it was balanced and swingy both, but I know that's not necessarily for everyone. That's why I advertised this as Role Madness with an emphasis on the Madness.
I think you advertised it correctly. Swing is something that you can only account for so much in design, and the rest is basically up to the players.
You are also absolutely right that mafia played underwhelmingly, even poorly, and that D1 lynch was terrible. It should have been easily avoided.
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kudos to faust for that insight into pps's role not needing time travel. pps was SO towny.
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The double enabler was obviously going to be town/scum in my opinion. A 1-1 town-scum trade is always in town's favor. Losing a couple powers is worth it for town in my opinion. I think running the setup without the enabler role and giving town another JOAT with two one-shots and giving scum something else might have been better. (disclaimer- I have absolutely no experience creating/modding. [I mean, my first game of mafia was toy story])
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Thanks for running this, Voltaire! Cool roles and game mechanics!
Yeah, what was up with the tree-stump? Was there a catch? I still think that it's a weird role to have in this type of game, because I'd be extremely disappointed to draw that role.. it does not look like a fun role to draw.
Flavor reason - VERY early in the show (1960s), the Doctor travels with his granddaughter (!). She is horrible, whiny, and he just strands her in the future on Earth when she meets a guy she likes. The show has never explained how the Doctor came to have a granddaughter, and she's almost never referenced in any way. So, how do you turn the Doctor's granddaughter (Susan Foreman) into a role? Tree stump. It can't be anything but Tree Stump.
Mod reason - it's weird, and I hoped, distracting. Such a role has to be town, but...why? It creates the possibility for town to think itself in circles over something that doesn't matter very much, detracting from scumhunting. The 1-shot ability was to make sure the role actually had something fun related to it.
The only way chairs would un-stump was if EFHW (The Doctor) chose chairs (Susan) as his companion N1. I knew this was unlikely to happen, but wanted the possibility of unstumping to exist.
I will fully admit this was the closest thing to something Bastard about this setup, and I'm very grateful for chairs for being cool with it. It's up to the player to decide how much they wanted to be involved in the game, and chairs clearly lost interest. I knew there was a risk that would happen.
Personally, I thought the strongest use of the Psychic part was to check for Bus or Redirect, but chair's choice of Recruit was good too.
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Okay, I get it. Ash enabled me. And EFHW had her own enabler.
I was working under the premise that I had to kill my own man in order to make the IC vulnerable to NK and to that I say OP.
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A 1-1 town-scum trade is always in town's favor.
I don't think this is always true. A lot of it depends who gets the first lynch.. if town is lynched day1, scum can often afford to make fake claims, even if it gets them lynched the next day. But while they're behind, trading is awful for scum.
There's just such a huge difference between games where town gets lynched day1 and scum gets lynched day1. When's the last time a mafia team has won after having a member lynched day1? I think it's before I started playing here, I can't remember one.
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Okay, I get it. Ash enabled me. And EFHW had her own enabler.
I was working under the premise that I had to kill my own man in order to make the IC vulnerable to NK and to that I say OP.
Ash enabled EFHW too. Yes, if scum decided that they really wanted EFHW dead, ash would have to die first.
Given that setup, the right call (in my mind) is to just deal with EFHW hanging around and endgame the Doctor. Walrus (the other BP townie), as everyone discovered, could be dealt with via a mislynch.
And if you did want to get rid of your own guy, it creates an amazing situation to bus for UltraTownCred.
Your mileage may vary. I know it isn't traditional, but I was going for the "out there" and "new" in this game.
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Another thing that helped swing things for town was the amazing lining up of night actions by jotheonah/e/faust to clear Jimmmmm and themselves (mostly). That was fun to see evolve as a mod.
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Holy crap....i was convinced the tree stump was a face of Bo reference...
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Hey hey hey! Don't like how the game ended, but its good that everyone made up and great job town!
Yeah, it did look a little bit skewed towards town, but scum D1 and D2 lynch was the worst and scum did not play too well, and town was awesome.
And, if your RMM craving wasn't satisfied by this game, check out Wheel of Time RMM!
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I had a great time playing this game.
If there is one thing I miss, It would be more time travel roles.
I felt we got control over all time trveling roles in the game at the end there.
Some roles should obviosly not time travel. Watcher, weak doctor and jailkeeper, all who wants to target the same person scum tries to kill would be overpowered if they could target the killed player from previous night.
But the time-travel cop, the follower + voyeur and the modifier cop could easily have been made time traveling. It would not help them much, but it would create some more chaos, and I think I also would make it harder to determine who was fakeclaiming.
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Another thing that helped swing things for town was the amazing lining up of night actions by jotheonah/e/faust to clear Jimmmmm and themselves (mostly). That was fun to see evolve as a mod.
yeah that was neat.
Another point in favor of it actually not being too slanted for town was the confusion of night actions. I mean, I could totally see a Walrus lynch happening (had all the scum not already been caught). My N1 investigation with no result is definitely pretty tough to recover from (again, if the scum weren't already lynched), especially after the whole joth/e/faust/jimmm circle makes me look pretty towny.
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Holy crap....i was convinced the tree stump was a face of Bo reference...
Chairs claimed his Susan Foreman flavor and nobody reacted. :( (she had psychic abilities on the show btw)
There was no old/new flavor split, btw. I loved that that almost got momentum going for a faust mislynch. Ian and Barbara are the Doctor's first-ever companions and they were intended as soft Best Friends in their setup mirroring (both JOAT). I put in Rory (flavor-wise, you'd expect Amy) to make Rory as a flavor seem more suspicious (but he died N1, so...) I put Rose as a mafia fakeclaim since it seems like she should be a big town PR. Jenny (ash) was the worst of the mafia fakeclaims, easily, and that was to "assist" in mafia losing that role if they wanted to go that way. Jenny enabling Regeneration isn't crazy, in my mind, since she is a clone of the Doctor.
Also, Romana as the other mafia fakeclaim was meant to pair with K9 (universal backup) as they are both from the 4th Doctor era to help that claim out.
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Chairs claimed his Susan Foreman flavor and nobody reacted. :( (she had psychic abilities on the show btw)
Sorry I have only watched Matt Smith Doctor episodes......
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I'm really bummed at how the game ended. I think town played extremely well, and there was very little luck about it. A lot of towns would have lynched Walrus, for example, given how many things pointed to his being scum. I was content at the end to POE it out. I think town really earned this win.
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Yeah I'm a big NuWho fan but Old Who is... old, and a lot of episodes, so I was lost there.
Rose Tyler is an insanely good fakeclaim, and Jenny is indeed very weak. Romana isn't great either because everyone hates her, right ?
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Seeing it all laid out, I think the fakeclaims were well-distributed. I haven't watched that much of the show. I'm just like a sponge nerd. I wiki and wiki and learn things from friends.
I think it's nice that you saved most of the Torchwood/Sarah Jane characters for the sequel!
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Yeah I'm a big NuWho fan but Old Who is... old, and a lot of episodes, so I was lost there.
Rose Tyler is an insanely good fakeclaim, and Jenny is indeed very weak. Romana isn't great either because everyone hates her, right ?
I'm not sure if you're thinking of Romana? She's the 4th Doctor's companion for awhile and while he's certainly annoyed with her at first (she's assigned to him by the Time Lords to keep an eye on him), they become friends. As far as I'm aware, she doesn't have a reputation of being hated at all.
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Why is Rory hated Voltaire ? Careful with your response there, I might have to policy vote you in every game if you answer the wrong thing.
PPE : I thought she was hated by fans, but I might be confusing her with someone else.
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Why is Rory hated Voltaire ? Careful with your response there, I might have to policy vote you in every game if you answer the wrong thing.
PPE : I thought she was hated by fans, but I might be confusing her with someone else.
Rory is hated because he always dies (in the show). I thought it was funny. He is actually one of my favorite companions, though!
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Good. Good. I thought he would have a one-shot bulletproof to reflect that, but obviously with all the regeneration going on that also makes sense.
He's the best thing about the Moffat era to me. That and the much better production values.
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Another thing that helped swing things for town was the amazing lining up of night actions by jotheonah/e/faust to clear Jimmmmm and themselves (mostly). That was fun to see evolve as a mod.
yeah that was neat.
Another point in favor of it actually not being too slanted for town was the confusion of night actions. I mean, I could totally see a Walrus lynch happening (had all the scum not already been caught). My N1 investigation with no result is definitely pretty tough to recover from (again, if the scum weren't already lynched), especially after the whole joth/e/faust/jimmm circle makes me look pretty towny.
My biggest regret this game was that scum didn't get to use their Busdriver to confuse the hell out of town and mislynch everyone.
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Voltaire, you indicated you had some analysis on my fakeclaim you were reserving for after the game.
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Another thing that helped swing things for town was the amazing lining up of night actions by jotheonah/e/faust to clear Jimmmmm and themselves (mostly). That was fun to see evolve as a mod.
yeah that was neat.
Another point in favor of it actually not being too slanted for town was the confusion of night actions. I mean, I could totally see a Walrus lynch happening (had all the scum not already been caught). My N1 investigation with no result is definitely pretty tough to recover from (again, if the scum weren't already lynched), especially after the whole joth/e/faust/jimmm circle makes me look pretty towny.
My biggest regret this game was that scum didn't get to use their Busdriver to confuse the hell out of town and mislynch everyone.
That is something we all like in theory, but in practice hardly ever works out. Archetype would have had to have chosen the investigative role's target and swapped it with scum for that to work out. But the best play for a scum busdriver is almost always to bus drive with the intention of clearing your partners, not with framing town.
So in the end, I think Arch would have busdriven me and EFHW, trying to get an innocent result on me.
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Sad that it had to end that, but as long as everyone is happy with one another it's alright. Great game Voltaire! Loved the Time-Traveling idea and the AWESOME flavor. Great job to xeiron for solving the setup. I agree that the game was a bit townsided. What it really needed was more negative utilities for the Town, no easy confirmables [The JOAT obviously matched that there was no way they could be scum, not have ashersky enable PPS [Though his Bulletproof wasn't THAT needed, but super thematic]. PPS's fakeclaim was amazing, but it's too bad EFHW was already protected. She did really well as an IC by keeping quiet at opportune times. Overall, really fun game with a really cool mechanic. Thanks for running it Voltaire!
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So in the end, I think Arch would have busdriven me and EFHW, trying to get an innocent result on me.
That's exactly what I would have done! I sent a PM to TA and Voltaire my night actions in case I didn't get lynched, and those were what they were for the exact reason you described.
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Oh...the game's over? I haven't been able to access the forums all day.
Good game all! I had a lot of fun with this one. Thanks to Voltaire for modding (and giving me a cool role) and thanks town for not mislynching me!
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Thanks for the game, Voltaire. I really enjoyed the setup.
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Had Xeiron redirected anyone other than Walrus, town would've had a game with zero town deaths. Curse you, Xeiron!
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Oh wait, that's just not true. Never mind. Had it landed on PPS, we would have had a perfect game.
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Wow, that was a neat town win. Time travel is a lot of fun, and I think worth exploring some more in upcoming RMM games.
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Voltaire, you indicated you had some analysis on my fakeclaim you were reserving for after the game.
Yes, I did!
Your fake claim was very similar to Clara's original role (before reg/BP was in the game). She was going to have a 1-shot Doctoring power that would protect the Doctor (EFHW) no matter where in time he had traveled to that night. I ended up cutting it because I thought BP was more cool, and I couldn't get a logical, non-insanely complicated ruleset for just exactly how it would work.
So when you fake-claimed basically that role, I was excited to see what would happen. I also wondered how it would work with EFHW's un-revealed companion power - would she find it more or less likely given that she could also pick her own companion? Unfortunately your claim didn't play very well with the time travel rules, and I think was a decent factor in your lynch. It's unfortunate, because it was a crazy complicated RMM fakeclaim and that's the sort of thing I want to see work out for scum one of these days.
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I came so close to using "a doctor" instead of "the doctor" but I didn't want to be seen as directly implicating sudgy which I was very much trying to do. Playing scum, to me, is about identifying the obvious route and playing against it. It's a hard line to take because you are effectively making it damned hard on yourself. The regen thing, well, hell I had to put that it in there because that's what made me valuable. That EFHW had regen was just a dire circumstance to the claim. I think it still damned "a doctor" line because it still covered her twice. In retrospect I could have left time travel out of the claim entirely because at that point no one was questioning how I would protect someone without traveling with them. I think EFHW would have warmed to the question eventually, though. She really impressed me with her methodical deductions. I'm not nearly that good. I play far more by perception plus for some reason I'm more often scum to begin with where it's more about distortion and dissonance.
My parting play was strictly to smokescreen ashersky. I'm not nearly such a poor sport.
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Thanks for running this, Voltaire! Cool roles and game mechanics!
Yeah, what was up with the tree-stump? Was there a catch? I still think that it's a weird role to have in this type of game, because I'd be extremely disappointed to draw that role.. it does not look like a fun role to draw.
Flavor reason - VERY early in the show (1960s), the Doctor travels with his granddaughter (!). She is horrible, whiny, and he just strands her in the future on Earth when she meets a guy she likes. The show has never explained how the Doctor came to have a granddaughter, and she's almost never referenced in any way. So, how do you turn the Doctor's granddaughter (Susan Foreman) into a role? Tree stump. It can't be anything but Tree Stump.
Mod reason - it's weird, and I hoped, distracting. Such a role has to be town, but...why? It creates the possibility for town to think itself in circles over something that doesn't matter very much, detracting from scumhunting. The 1-shot ability was to make sure the role actually had something fun related to it.
The only way chairs would un-stump was if EFHW (The Doctor) chose chairs (Susan) as his companion N1. I knew this was unlikely to happen, but wanted the possibility of unstumping to exist.
I will fully admit this was the closest thing to something Bastard about this setup, and I'm very grateful for chairs for being cool with it. It's up to the player to decide how much they wanted to be involved in the game, and chairs clearly lost interest. I knew there was a risk that would happen.
Personally, I thought the strongest use of the Psychic part was to check for Bus or Redirect, but chair's choice of Recruit was good too.
I didn't really lose a ton of interest, but I honestly felt like every time I talked it just started throwing Town in circles about whether I was Town. Hence I withdrew, and Town went back to scumhunting.
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Woah, I missed the game ending! :/