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[faust]

I would like to point out that people are different, because a lot of us seem to forget that. Statements like "changing your meta is scummy" or "self-voting is scummy" are useless and wrong because whether or not something is scummy always depends on the player doing it. People try to work with such universal scumtells because it's easier, but such a thing does not actually exist.

[ashersky]

So until someone wins as scum, we just ignore it all?

[faust]

So until someone wins as scum, we just ignore it all?

No.

[silverspawn]

eh... I don't get it. I agree that it is a non-answer, but that was inherent to the question. How could you answer it meaningfully?

There are clear town traits that you can name. Some things make specific players more likely town. You can state what they are.

Isn't that just a theoretical question that is in no way linked to this game specifically?

I don't have a catalog of scum and town traits. I look at something and then apply reason and intuition. I tend not to give too much credit to arguments that don't take a player's personality into perspective.

Huh? It is linked to this game. The question is, at this point in the game, is there anything RR could do to make you think he is town?

Of course there is. But it's not a useful thing to try to come up with things he could do beforehand, also because there are a huge number of them.

[silverspawn]

So, personally, one reason why I liked to sheep faust in prior games is not just because it's faust; it's that I find his arguments convincing. It's often like '... or course, I should have said that!'

That's not the case at all here. The points he makes aren't necessarily awful, but they are definitely weak in comparison.

This makes me feel better about the RR lynch.

Also RR comes out pretty weak in the RR <-> yuma argument

[silverspawn]

lynch: RR

[ashersky]

lynch: RR

Wrong verb.

[ashersky]

I would like to point out that people are different, because a lot of us seem to forget that. Statements like "changing your meta is scummy" or "self-voting is scummy" are useless and wrong because whether or not something is scummy always depends on the player doing it. People try to work with such universal scumtells because it's easier, but such a thing does not actually exist.

To expand on my last question/point...

The statements you make here are not untrue.  But, with a newer player, where we lack the points of reference you mention, we have to work differently.

No, we have yet to see RR flip scum.  But we have a clear definition of town!RR and his behavior.  That behavior has not been replicated here (until it was pointed out, and then he turned it on overdrive).  Both the lack of normal town play and the overcompensation when called out for it are scummy behaviors.

It's a good case, faust.  You don't have any reason to believe RR is town other than pride and contrarianism.

[Roadrunner7671]

lynch: RR

That's dark.

[yuma]

To be clear I don't hold it against people for trying to convince me away from a case or read I have. That is their perogative as scum. It means they are playing well.

This is misleading... again. It is also our perogative as town.

Context!!!!!!  In this case I was referring to the people who , in previous games convinced me to change or stop having a really strong read in someone who was later confirmed to be scum. I think that is what is going on here, but I don't know it.

If you want to be so obsessed with finding every post of mine misleading at least spend the time to determine the context and substance of the posts.

What is with you this game? You aren't normally such a pain.

[yuma]

no problem

I have more of an issue with the fact that you're probably scum

What would make you think that RR is town?

If he had acted like he typically acted when faced with persistent and aggressive pressure. But he didn't. Well at least not until I pointed out that he hadn't. That he is doing it now is too little too late.

Also RR has still failed to respond to the posts that he incorrectly stated I didn't respond to....

So your mind is set, RR can do nothing anymore to change it? That's anti-town play.

That is a nice opinion stated as a fact.

[yuma]

And again my point in rebuttal to what you originally said is: if you intended from the start to eliminate omgus from your play why did you not tell everyone of this new found revelation at the start of the game? Why wait until you are called out in it to bring it up. Too convenient

Why would he though?

I don't know? He is the one that brought up the idea as a defense as if we should have known that he was changing his approach due to an epiphany rather than because of alignment. But we can't know things about a players' motivation just observe their behavior. So we are back to square one. I think what I observed RR do is scummy.

[yuma]

I would like to point out that people are different, because a lot of us seem to forget that. Statements like "changing your meta is scummy" or "self-voting is scummy" are useless and wrong because whether or not something is scummy always depends on the player doing it. People try to work with such universal scumtells because it's easier, but such a thing does not actually exist.

To expand on my last question/point...

The statements you make here are not untrue.  But, with a newer player, where we lack the points of reference you mention, we have to work differently.

No, we have yet to see RR flip scum.  But we have a clear definition of town!RR and his behavior.  That behavior has not been replicated here (until it was pointed out, and then he turned it on overdrive).  Both the lack of normal town play and the overcompensation when called out for it are scummy behaviors.

It's a good case, faust.  You don't have any reason to believe RR is town other than pride and contrarianism.

Ding ding ding!!! Everyone should read this post again. It is one of ash's better.

[Roadrunner7671]

So Yuma, you're saying that there is something I can do to make you think I'm not scum?

Personally, I don't believe that. So can you tell me what it is?

[yuma]

So Yuma, you're saying that there is something I can do to make you think I'm not scum?

Personally, I don't believe that. So can you tell me what it is?

Build a really good case in a player that is not me that illustrates that said person is more likely to be scum than you are. It get someone else to build said case.

You already did the scummy thing. That can't be changer. Nor can be interpretation of said thing... As the defenses offered have been... Lacking. So I'll only stop voting you if there is someone else who I think is more likely to be scum, which might be a tall order, but it's my answer

[Roadrunner7671]

This probably goes for Ashersky and Joseph too.

[silverspawn]

RR... everything that you could do to convince me that you're town would stop being something you can do to convince me that you're town if I tell you to do it first, and it should be the same with everyone else. Mafia doesn't work like that.

[Witherweaver]

I would like you to find scum.

I would like you to find scum.

How does a Joseph strike your fancy?

Not bad. I would join in there if more people voted Joseph I think... I prefer yuma a bit though.

I would do Yuma, too.  But honestly I'm tired of always ending up voting who you're voting~

[Witherweaver]

Not that there's much on Joseph.. he seems to not be doing a lot but posting a little bit here and there, his comments feel like he feels he ought to be commenting.  The thing that stood out to me was his "when I was scum, I did this..." argument, but I'm not so sure why I found it scummy at the time.  I've said the same thing as both town and scum.

Hydrad I don't want to lynch; he's been townier since we summoned him.

Vote: Yuma

[yuma]

Neener, neener, neener. You cant lynch me!

[yuma]

Well I am at L-2. Given the idiotic tendency to derp/quick happen on f.ds I am going to do the following. Claim...

I have a pr. It is one of the following: hider,  rolecop, jailkeeper. Obviously I can't be all three so if you as a person are one of these roles don't over react and "out" yourself...

I think I should claim because 1 good chance of getting lynched if I don't. 2. If RR is scum and we lynch him I am likely going to be the nk target anyways. 3. If RR is town and not lynched u think I will likely be the nk to set him up.

So yeah. I claim to be a pr one of the three listed above. I might claim specifically what I am if people still want me lynched, but I will have to think about it.

I think this is the right move. If it isn't sorry.

[gkrieg13]

Claiming early isn't like you. The only times I've seen you claim early was GOP mafia. I just woke up so I'll think about it in the shower.

[Haddock]

Unofficial vote count:

RR: Yuma, Ash, SS  (3)
Faust: Joseph (1)
Haddock: Awa, Hydrad (2)
Yuma: RR, Faust, WW (3)
Ash: Haddock (1)
Hydrad: Gkrieg (1)

It's clear that noone wants to vote anyone except Yuma and RR (and maybe me, I guess).  So my vote on ash may as well be nowhere.  Out of yuma and RR I would definitely rather vote: RR at the point.  He just seems to get scummier as he and yuma argue.

In other news, having a look through I found these two:

In case it's not obvious, yuma's post was why I wanted to unvote RR, and voting Haddock was because I don't like just unvoting without voting for someone else if there's time to think about who I want to vote for next.

and

Who's the scummiest person?

Haddock.

Is it me or are these two statements pretty contradictory?  He says I'm just a placeholder vote and then claims that I'm the scummiest person here.  (Which, btw, seriously?  There are some gut reads on me at the moment, but can Awa honestly find me scummier than everyone else? I don't get it.)  There's some time difference there, but it's not like Awa says anything about me in the meantime.  This being Awa I guess it's not really an alignment tell, but it is pretty weird.  I mean one of these statements has to be false.

[Haddock]

Whoa OK I didn't get a PPE notice.  PPE lots.  And obviously the vote count changes. 

[Haddock]

2. If RR is scum and we lynch him I am likely going to be the nk target anyways. 3. If RR is town and not lynched u think I will likely be the nk to set him up.

I'm thinking about your claim.  In the meantime, I don't like these two things.  Someone (was it you?) used comments that RR made along these exact lines as a reason to find RR scummy.