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[Jimmmmm]

I pointed out to the main proponent and progenitor of the motion to no-lynch that no-lynch is generally a scum suggestion and the game has devolved into a wait for D1 to end so we can see who dies first tonight.

I agree with this though. I do not see the merits of no-lynching.

[Teproc]

Yeah, what Jimmmmm said. As far as I can tell PPS, the votes on you weren't because you were against claiming, but because of the way you were against claiming. And now you're painting yourself as a victim, which I find scummy as well.

And what is that last sentence supposed to mean ? Just a general statement (in which case it's useless) or an accusation at the people who've been active recently ?

[faust]

I pointed out to the main proponent and progenitor of the motion to no-lynch that no-lynch is generally a scum suggestion and the game has devolved into a wait for D1 to end so we can see who dies first tonight.

This this is all I could find that you said about no lynch:

Actually, I originally suggested it. You liked it and actually argued for it. It was a scum trap that just barely didn't work. The whole plan was to get someone to look scummy as hell for arguing for no-lynch. If they succeeded even better.

I don't think anything in this post says "no lynch is generally scum suggestion". It refers to RMM12. This is not RMM12, and we work under different premises. What I get from the post is more "people arguing for no lynch can easily be painted as scummy". And look at what you're doing.

[pingpongsam]

I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.

I think this is misleading, and it comes across as a grab for Towncred. I didn't vote for you, but I definitely could have, and it certainly would not have been for rejecting or supporting theories. I highly doubt that is why anyone has voted for you.

The fact that you didn't vote for me doesn't negate the fact that I picked up the most votes on a single point that has become the accepted game state. That's the point I made, why you are conflating that with the fact that you're not one of the voters is beyond me.

I don't know why you doubt the reason so highly since the only explanation offered was that I wasn't making any sense despite the result that everyone has capitulated and decided that early mass-claims are not re way to go. If it was soooo nonsensical then why is everyone doing it?

[Twistedarcher]

PPS, my vote on you had nothing to do with your view on theory. I agreed with you. It had to do with your interaction with Faust, who I found to be towny.

I don't know why you are dismissing the votes on you in this way, especially since I know that I was very explicit when I voted you, and that I agreed with you all around.

[Voltaire]

Can someone tell me of a game where PPS was town? This screams scum PPS to me but that's all I've ever seen.

[Twistedarcher]

Grimm Brothers.

[AHoppy]

Vote: Robz until he gets in here and says something...

[Teproc]

I know old ones, like MVI and then there's one (MXII or something) where he claimed VT on day 1 for no reason and got mislynched as a result.

Point is : crazy PPS is usually town (he was behaving a bit weird on day 1 of MVI I think). Maybe there's a more recent example of that, but that's the only reason I'm not voting for him right now.

PPE : Right, Grimmm. I don't think he was particularly crazy in that, so my argument might be obsolete.

[Voltaire]

PPS seems realllllllllllllly normal in Grimm, not nearly as brash and in-your-face as in RMM12 and RMM9.

The only reason I'm now nervous about my vote is because he's an active poster/player, and that's not who I lynch D1.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, what Jimmmmm said. As far as I can tell PPS, the votes on you weren't because you were against claiming, but because of the way you were against claiming. And now you're painting yourself as a victim, which I find scummy as well.

And what is that last sentence supposed to mean ? Just a general statement (in which case it's useless) or an accusation at the people who've been active recently ?

If a person is the scum target for the day and they point that out are they painting themselves as a victim or calling attention to how perception is being controlled? Let's run some votes up on you just because I say so and see if you think you're a victim or there's some shenanigans that need to be called out.

That last sentence suggests the low level of activity might be because a small subset of the players decries anyone who dares post while we wait out the clock on D1. I get to have my suspicions and you can call them useless and you can perceive it to be an accusation. My observation of that is scumhunting.

[Teproc]

You're saying you're the scum target for the day, and I don't know why you think that. You got three votes on you. Three !

As for the rest, it's only scumhunting if you're clear about who you think is scum. As it is, all you're doing is casting vague accusations at large groups of people. Not only is this not scumhunting by any stretch of the imagination, it's straight up anti-town.

[pingpongsam]

Right, I should just follow along and do whatever you or someone else tells me to or else I am anti-town. That's the pattern I'm seeing.

I'm not saying 3 votes is some heavy weight but I am pointing out that I'm the only person who hasn't bent to the pressure put on him which is why is the sole reason I am the person with the most votes regardless of the count.

[pingpongsam]

I only suspect one of the standing votes on me to be scum. It's not the vote but the more subtle suggestions that I must be scum that give it away.

You accuse me of not scumhunting because I'm not directly stating my reads at the moment.

[Teproc]

Well yes, keeping your reads to yourself is not scumhunting. It's a way of playing that can work, but it's not scumhunting. It's also a luxury that is generally reserved to ICs, because it's extremely easy for scum to hide in that kind of playstyle.

Right, I should just follow along and do whatever you or someone else tells me to or else I am anti-town. That's the pattern I'm seeing.

More artificial victimization. Regardless of your alignement, this is just annoying.

[pingpongsam]

Well yes, keeping your reads to yourself is not scumhunting. It's a way of playing that can work, but it's not scumhunting. It's also a luxury that is generally reserved to ICs, because it's extremely easy for scum to hide in that kind of playstyle.

Fair enough. I was waiting on a little more show and tell from my suspect. But there is a convincing case already there. I have to pick up and go home for the evening but I'll outline the case later tonight.

Hunting often involves putting some bait out and waiting to see what shows up. So yes, luring scum out to show themselves without immediately divulging that you have a suspect is in fact, hunting. It is not wholly pro-town but I think we should all afford some of this luxury in this game as we do have a responsibility to ascertain the best night targets, especially when a significant portion of the voters are electing to not try to hit scum on a lynch.

[chairs]

Vote: chairs. His "(if they exist)" sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Not RVS, but not super serious either.

... Why ?

By the way, I understand I'm coming in a bit late to the theory talk, but I do think the "rolling 1 to 5" plan is good, and it only works if everyone agrees to it. As I explained above, I don't think TA's objection is a problem at all, and I don't see much else that would be wrong with it.

I have actually come to dislike this plan, but for a reason I don't think anyone has stated yet.

It is thus: that a doctor pretending to have a town result may actually make a mafia appear to be town for that day. Or the inverse, the fear of this will cause people to suspect someone who a cop says is town for fear that the claiming player is a doc and is wrong... all of this speculation obviously goes away once said player dies... but until that point we are left w/o concrete information.

To be clear here is an example:

Night1: Doc ashersky roles himself a 3. So day3 comes around and he says, "I investigated Insomniac last night." He doesn't know it, but Insomniac is mafia and now everyone will think that there is a pretty good chance that Insomniac is in fact town, at least until ashersky dies, which may or may not happen soon...

Or the inverse:

Night1: jotheonah is a day2 cop. So day2 comes around and he says, "I investigated CaptainFrisk last night." He knows it, but CaptainFrisk is in fact town, but because this isn't verifiable because town doesn't know that jotheonah is actually a cop and there isn't a way to distinguish him from a doc claiming to be a cop. The only way to verify it is to have jotheonah die, which may or may not happen soon...

see the problem?

I am thinking that cops should just immediately claim results when they get them. Docs just shouldn't say anything.

I'd be in favor of this claiming system, or of the no-lynch except on guilty cop result, but none of the other claiming systems we've discussed look like they're more beneficial to Town than they are to Mafia.

I'm intrigued by the no-lynch-is-best potential, because it's a really interesting counterbalance to a different Mafia variation (Assassin in the palace) where an interaction-less game is also the statistically beneficial playstyle.

[Robz888]

Okay I lied and have just been like insanely busy. The good news: I will be on a train for extended periods of time tomorrow... if it has WIFI, we are in good shape for me to catch up.

If it doesn't... shudder...

[Archetype]

I can't quite remember, but I think I mentioned that No Lynch is something I'm not a fan of. Makes it harder for Docs/Cops to choose someone, and like yuma said it restarts D1 in a sense.

[Jimmmmm]

I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.

I think this is misleading, and it comes across as a grab for Towncred. I didn't vote for you, but I definitely could have, and it certainly would not have been for rejecting or supporting theories. I highly doubt that is why anyone has voted for you.

The fact that you didn't vote for me doesn't negate the fact that I picked up the most votes on a single point that has become the accepted game state. That's the point I made, why you are conflating that with the fact that you're not one of the voters is beyond me.

I don't know why you doubt the reason so highly since the only explanation offered was that I wasn't making any sense despite the result that everyone has capitulated and decided that early mass-claims are not re way to go. If it was soooo nonsensical then why is everyone doing it?

Uh, no. The idea that you were trying to put across makes sense. You weren't making any sense.

[chairs]

I can't quite remember, but I think I mentioned that No Lynch is something I'm not a fan of. Makes it harder for Docs/Cops to choose someone, and like yuma said it restarts D1 in a sense.

Sure.  There are arguments both for and against in this regard, honestly - I'm not "sold" on the No Lynch Plan by any means, but it -is- a mechanism which delays the game for Town, allowing for potentially more Cop results.  Whether or not this turns out in our favor (from getting guilty results) or not (more NKs versus Town-directed kills)?  That's the million dollar question.

[yuma]

Fair enough. I was waiting on a little more show and tell from my suspect. But there is a convincing case already there. I have to pick up and go home for the evening but I'll outline the case later tonight.

Hunting often involves putting some bait out and waiting to see what shows up. So yes, luring scum out to show themselves without immediately divulging that you have a suspect is in fact, hunting. It is not wholly pro-town but I think we should all afford some of this luxury in this game as we do have a responsibility to ascertain the best night targets, especially when a significant portion of the voters are electing to not try to hit scum on a lynch.

For me, PPS is out of my lynch pool because of the above in bold. It is something that scum could fake, I admit, but I think this line of thought comes much more naturally to town and is harder to come by as mafia... that is PPS if town, has a night ability and is already starting to think about it.... whereas I think mafia wouldn't be thinking about who they would pretend to investigate until tonight...

I say PPS is town and I won't likely be voting for him. I ask all voting for him to consider this quote and weigh it with their current reasons for voting...

[Jimmmmm]

Fair enough. I was waiting on a little more show and tell from my suspect. But there is a convincing case already there. I have to pick up and go home for the evening but I'll outline the case later tonight.

Hunting often involves putting some bait out and waiting to see what shows up. So yes, luring scum out to show themselves without immediately divulging that you have a suspect is in fact, hunting. It is not wholly pro-town but I think we should all afford some of this luxury in this game as we do have a responsibility to ascertain the best night targets, especially when a significant portion of the voters are electing to not try to hit scum on a lynch.

For me, PPS is out of my lynch pool because of the above in bold. It is something that scum could fake, I admit, but I think this line of thought comes much more naturally to town and is harder to come by as mafia... that is PPS if town, has a night ability and is already starting to think about it.... whereas I think mafia wouldn't be thinking about who they would pretend to investigate until tonight...

I say PPS is town and I won't likely be voting for him. I ask all voting for him to consider this quote and weigh it with their current reasons for voting...

I think Mafia always think about their fakeclaims. They would have discussed it in the pregame and would know or at least have a good idea what they are claiming if we claim Today.

[yuma]

Fair enough. I was waiting on a little more show and tell from my suspect. But there is a convincing case already there. I have to pick up and go home for the evening but I'll outline the case later tonight.

Hunting often involves putting some bait out and waiting to see what shows up. So yes, luring scum out to show themselves without immediately divulging that you have a suspect is in fact, hunting. It is not wholly pro-town but I think we should all afford some of this luxury in this game as we do have a responsibility to ascertain the best night targets, especially when a significant portion of the voters are electing to not try to hit scum on a lynch.

For me, PPS is out of my lynch pool because of the above in bold. It is something that scum could fake, I admit, but I think this line of thought comes much more naturally to town and is harder to come by as mafia... that is PPS if town, has a night ability and is already starting to think about it.... whereas I think mafia wouldn't be thinking about who they would pretend to investigate until tonight...

I say PPS is town and I won't likely be voting for him. I ask all voting for him to consider this quote and weigh it with their current reasons for voting...

I think Mafia always think about their fakeclaims. They would have discussed it in the pregame and would know or at least have a good idea what they are claiming if we claim Today.

That isn't what I mean... what I mean is PPS is actively thinking about who he is going to target with his power tonight or whatever night he is as a Doc or Cop, whereas I think mafia only starts to think about how to use a PR once night as begun--at least that is generally how I approach play as mafia.... trying to figure out who to target during the day as mafia distracts from the goal of trying to manipulate town...

What I said in regard to fakeclaiming was that I guess there is a chance PPS realized that if he put in something about "ascertaining the best town targets" to make it look like he was figuring out who to target via imposing "ascertain the best fake claim to target" ontop of it, I guess it is possible... but I think PPS being town is more likely.

[pingpongsam]

Holy shit.

I went to assemble my case on TwistedArcher and I am now convinced he must be town whereas before I was certain he was actively and subtly painting me bad.

I'm starting to see where my actions were looking schizophrenic.