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[yuma]

Why is Egor scummy again?

You all can't answer that question, huh? Everyone who can't answer that question should not be voting for Egor.

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[Teproc]

Why is Egor scummy again?

You all can't answer that question, huh? Everyone who can't answer that question should not be voting for Egor.

I answered it already. He's not that scummy, but he's the least townie player around (well, there's e too).

To my knowledge, that is the only way to catch scum!EgorK. Worked in ASoIaF.

[faust]

Why is Egor scummy again?

You all can't answer that question, huh? Everyone who can't answer that question should not be voting for Egor.

I answered it already. He's not that scummy, but he's the least townie player around (well, there's e too).

To my knowledge, that is the only way to catch scum!EgorK. Worked in ASoIaF.

Lots of people are scummy. Hydrad, RR, e, WW are just the ones I can think of the top off my head. Some others I don't really have an opinion on. Ampharos, iguana. How are all these townier than Egor?

[Roadrunner7671]

Oh come on, Faust. You're fabulous at Mafia. But I will not take your RR reads seriously for this game, and maybe even another game after this! Harry Potter Mafia is still fresh as a daisy in my mind.

[Teproc]

Why is Egor scummy again?

You all can't answer that question, huh? Everyone who can't answer that question should not be voting for Egor.

I answered it already. He's not that scummy, but he's the least townie player around (well, there's e too).

To my knowledge, that is the only way to catch scum!EgorK. Worked in ASoIaF.

Lots of people are scummy. Hydrad, RR, e, WW are just the ones I can think of the top off my head. Some others I don't really have an opinion on. Ampharos, iguana. How are all these townier than Egor?

Good for you. I disagree, as I have said five billion times already. e might be scummier than EgorK. Hydrad is slightly less scummy by virtue of my belief of WW's claim. All those other people you cited are townie. There you go.

[faust]

Oh come on, Faust. You're fabulous at Mafia. But I will not take your RR reads seriously for this game, and maybe even another game after this! Harry Potter Mafia is still fresh as a daisy in my mind.

Vote: RR

[Roadrunner7671]

Oh come on, Faust. You're fabulous at Mafia. But I will not take your RR reads seriously for this game, and maybe even another game after this! Harry Potter Mafia is still fresh as a daisy in my mind.

Vote: RR

Oh, yay. I thought that might've been sorta scummy, or maybe Faust just wants me dead so I stop talking about Harry Potter. That's reasonable.

[Roadrunner7671]

So, I have a bad feeling about a RR wagon starting. Here's what I have to say: do not start a Roadrunner wagon.

Need more convincing: Do not start a RR wagon.

Third time's the charm? Do not start a RR wagon.

Good night.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.11:

WW (2): Ampharos, RR
egork (5): Haddock, yuma, Teproc, Hydrad, iguana
haddock (1): EgorK
Teproc (1): WW
RR (2): 2.7, faust

Not Voting (0):

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day Two ends at 3:00 a.m. on Friday, December 18.

[EgorK]

Well, I am Dr. Strange. I am Vanilla Hero. Can we lynch scum now?

[Haddock]

People who know more than me: would scum want to fakeclaim a PR here? It seems to me that theres a risk either way.

This doesnt really convince me that egor isn't scum. Not sure.

[yuma]

Hmmm... Well. It is kinda a toss up. On one hand a fake claim here is less likely to get a counter claim in general due to the closed setup, but that isn't always (and I would say increasingly not) the goal of claiming. Egork as scum I think would claim what helps him survive.

There have already been a bunch of PRs out there (four by my count) and if all are true I think town would be more skeptical of an additional PR just given that with 4 roles already what are the odds that the one player we decided to lynch was another PR. That said... If egork claimed a PR I don't think I would lynch him... Maybe. Depends on the PR.

But egork has already backed into claiming VT with what he stated earlier.

So I think mafia claims a PR here ~60% of the time. So maybe that necessitates an Invite for now while I think a bit more...

[yuma]

Unvote not invite...

[Haddock]

vote: e while I consider egors claim. His reaction to RR being RR is scummy.

[Roadrunner7671]

vote: e while I consider egors claim. His reaction to RR being RR is scummy.

'His reaction'
Is he e or Egor?

[Haddock]

Sorry, he is e. Thought that was clear.

[Roadrunner7671]

Sorry, he is e. Thought that was clear.

I'm sure it's clear to anyone but me.

[yuma]

Yuma, putting me L-1 achieves what exactly? Forcing me to claim? It won't be too exciting. Lynching me? One more mislynch. And with there possibly edirector of some sort, you can't even shoot safely to increase variance. Nothing good would be done

So this was the post where egorK softclaims VT. I thought it had occurred earlier, as this post was the post prior to EgorK's claim post. Maybe there is an additional post? I'll go check. Well there isn't one.

Anyways... I noticed this when he first said it and didn't bring it up on the longshot that perhaps he was scum and would change his mind when it came time to claim and would be caught out. Unlikely but worth a chance.... but that didn't happen.

Now comes the question that I kinda tried to ask before. Does mafia fake claim here? And the more I think about it the more I think that answer is yes. There are no reasons, but let's go through the yes first.

1. A fake claim generally means people will at the very least back off your lynch. I have been talking about here about giving WW and faust's roles more time to do their thing. Same thing would apply to a role that was claimed here by EgorK.

2. A fake claim has the chance to out a real PR, so even if the claimer goes down today it might take a PR with him. This is lessened by this being a closed, invented setup.

3. Another fake claim could turn the tide into a mislynch of a town!faust or a town!WW. Get enough people believing the fake claim and people could then decide to go back to the faust/WW wagons.

4. claiming VT, VTs are often seen as an "acceptable" mislynch even if you are town, so claiming VT as mafia could be seen as bad here.

5. There appear to be PR viewing roles in this game

So reasons to not claim:

1. risky of being caught. But when at L-1 you don't have much to lose.

2. there are already 4 claimed PRs. Another PR claim might not be believed.

3. EgorK is a goon and there are additional wagons/pressure on other partners that have roles that he fears if the wagon on him dissipates it will reflex onto them. Better for him to go down than lose a PR partner.

4. There appears to be PR viewing roles in this game


The 5 for claiming and 4 for not claiming kinda indicate to me that if EgorK is mafia I think he is likely a goon. Because if he doesn't have a PR that could be observed by another PR and vice versa. So I don't think he is lying about whether or not he has a PR, regardless of alignment. Not that this tells us where to lynch though....

Right now I could still lynch him, but I am kinda leaning toward not. I don't know. This feels like me talking myself out of a perfectly acceptable lynch whereas on the other hand I am talking myself into it as I don't want to go back into the quagmire of trying to build up another wagon on someone.

[EgorK]

One thing I thought about is we should not at the very least add Awaclus to the number of power roles when we asses PR claims. If I understand his role correctly his role is negative utility for town, so if anything there should be a bit more town PRs among others than if Awaclus was VT (or a bit less powerful PRs for scum)

[yuma]

One thing I thought about is we should not at the very least add Awaclus to the number of power roles when we asses PR claims. If I understand his role correctly his role is negative utility for town, so if anything there should be a bit more town PRs among others than if Awaclus was VT (or a bit less powerful PRs for scum)

I disagree. It might be a negative utility, but it is still a role--maybe Power Role is the wrong term. But a role is a role, is a role. The point of "normal" games compared to "rolemadness" is that a significant amount of players aren't VT. Awaclus isn't a VT so we should be counting him as having a role and taking up a slot in a limited, unknown amount of role slots.

To compensate for a negative PR in a normal setup there should be roles that are buffed or mafia roles that are weakened. Not, necessarily the addition of more roles...

[yuma]

although now that I am looking at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13950.0

the mafia hub descriptors I am not seeing a topic for a "normal" game or "regular." Same thing for "role madness"

I thought there was. And this can be a topic of discussion for the future. But I think there should be. As I think most people consider "normal" to mean that around 50% of all players are VT, whereas Role Madness is generally considered that "all players" have a role of some sort.

But I could be off base here, which is why I think this sort of thing needs to be set a little more clearly and what I thought the purpose of the link above was originally all about...

[Haddock]

I took it to mean "mafiascum normal".  Which only has a restriction that there must be at least one VT.

If the roles are fairly tame I could see there being quite a few of them.

[yuma]

I took it to mean "mafiascum normal".  Which only has a restriction that there must be at least one VT.

If the roles are fairly tame I could see there being quite a few of them.

Well then in that case:

look at this:

where it states

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector, Framer, Vanillaizer, Beloved Princess, Arsonist, Governor

But given that has has included a nexus in a normal game before I don't think that is a safe assumption to make at all. We don't operate strictly under mafiascum rules... So, yes, I don't know if we can make the assumptions that I was making previously. Which is why we should have some sort of guidelines on what it means to make a normal game in the future.

So basically I kinda retract what I said above about roles and claiming and such in terms of figuring out the number of roles... and this also makes me want to mass claim less (not that that was going to happen).

[Haddock]

Good find.  So it's clearly not "mafiascum normal" as such.

Still I could see having quite a few roles here.  It seems to me that what makes a Role Madness game is the complexity of the roles themselves (lots of modifiers etc.) as well as just having lots of roles.  (Then again I've never played one, this is just the impression I've got from reading one or two.  Happy to be told that this is wrong.)

I don't think we should base decisions too heavily on an expected number of PRs.

Not the relevant point really anyway.  Is Egor scum?  Eh.  I'm tentatively of the viewpoint that scum is slightly more likely to claim a PR than not, here.  Would Dr. Strange be expected to have a PR, flavourwise?  I don't know him really. 

Thing is, every judgement we've made here about claims and etc. is based on "scum would do this, scum wouldn't".  The WIFOM makes my head spin.

I think I could still lynch Egor, but I guess I'm not quite so keen now.  Let's wait and see what others chime in with.

[EgorK]

I think Dr. Stange can be some type of roleblocker, as he seems to be some kind of protector against black magic. But well, any avenger is a hero and hence should have some superpower, so as this is normal some wouldn't have it