Theorel:
(-) His first post is a long post (
here) which to me basically says "can we discuss items? thanks".
(0+) But when talking about items and claims, he points out that
I think that extreme positions are detrimental to town.
and I agree with this. His next post as well differentiates theory from scum-hunting. Theo is known for exploring theory, but it looks like he also wants to get into scumhunting when avenues for advantage have been explored.
(0-) He does take some time to jump into scumhunting, but I think he was one of the first players to start putting out reads on all the players. Here is the first reads post (
link). Nothing seems super suspicious here to me, except perhaps that theorel seems to be relying on players' metas more than I recall him doing other times. It's not like there's much to go on at this point, I suppose. One thing that seems odd is his read on AHoppy (which initially is "i don't remember him, score=27, which was one of the higher scores he gave in that post) but then 4 posts down he said
Okay, looked back at Ahoppy. He's been posting a good bit actually, and I was right about it being him calling out lurkers. It looks like he's been trying to engender discussion. So, I'm going to drop his scumScore to 22.
That's a big drop in scum score, and I find it surprising that theorel wouldn't have looked back through the 10 or so pages we had made before making his list in the first place.
(0-)Next, theorel defends me twice in the discussion with EFHW; I think he is a bit overly-soothing in his tone, but sometimes that comes from town. (link
here)
(-)This post sits uneasily with me
I'm not quite able to put my finger on it, but I feel like it's just very speculative (trying out many different theories, allowing him to choose whichever gains traction. This is in addition to him saying that he really doesn't find anybody worth pushing or saving at all. Then ending with "hey, ash/Eevee...maybe there's something there, but I haven't found it". Really this whole post yells "hey I'm a blank slate, try to convince me". It's the type of reactive scumhunting that is easier for scum to fake, as opposed to the proactive hunting of searching out a player's inconsistencies and asking critical questions.
(+) Later theorel engages in exactly the type of proactive hunting I'm talking about (
this post and the next). He comes down with firm opinions on the various debates, and then asks AHoppy to clarify his positions.
(0+) xeiron had called theorel out for not scumhunting, and his reaction seems to be genuine to me. I think people gave theorel flak about the "finally understand my scumread" line, but sometimes that happens to me. I have a gut reaction that I just have a tough time putting words to, and then something will happen and I'll be able to clearly explain what I was feeling.
Oh, and I think I finally understand my scum-read. It's not significant, but he basically called me out for not scumhunting, in the midst of a post where I was trying to understand player interactions, due to a calculation that I made. Meanwhile, he was NOT scumhunting (except arguably by pointing out a supposed scumslip I made). I understand that different players have different approaches, but his calling me out on it seems insincere given his own lack of any apparent scumhunting, excepting a couple town reads. He says raerae isn't his strongest scum-read, but I have yet to see a scum-read from him (other than a problem with my post, when I was previously a town-read for him...not sure if I switched to a scum-read, he didn't really specify). In short, Xeiron seems more interested in challenging others for failing to scumhunt than scumhunting himself.
Vote: Xeiron
(-) But his next post (
link here) that caught my eye was one where it really looked like he was waffling on xeiron, after having made his mind up already. This wavering looks like it was just for show, basically. Also in this post, he is the first to push towards a lynch for the sake of ending the day. The day was super long, but also, I feel like this "get any lynch, jeez!" attitude is what led to mail-mi being a snapwagon with no chance to claim. Yes, we were eating up bankable time, but if we need it, then we need it. In his next few posts (on the same page) he debates the merits of each lynch and ends up choosing Eevee, but reminds us that he still supports lynching xeiron.
In day 2, theorel goes deep into pair analysis, but he keeps approaching from a position where he assumes that one of me/Twisted must be scum. Based on my read of him thusfar, I am skeptical of his analysis.
(0-) In this posts' conclusion he wavers on AHoppy; Twisted pointed this out in the post immediately after and asked theorel to clarify.
I went back and reviewed the AHoppy case. I still think it was weak, and that ultimately it was about his lurking. Here's the case as I understand it:
-AHoppy talked theory early on, while noting that we should probably get to scumhunting. While "real scumhunting" was going on. I was there, I was talking theory, I don't think scumhunting was really going on. There were two "non-RVS" claimed votes, and maybe the thing between shraeye and efhw at that time? That was as much transition-out-of-RVS stuff as the theory talk was.
-AHoppy is away a lot, and pops up when his name is mentioned. i.e. he's lurking.
-He said he would reread in the evening, and then come evening, he said he was starting to reread, and then 3 hours later, he posted stuff about it. Then a day later, he finished the reread and started posting reads and contributing more.
I said yesterday that this was a null case. I hold that this was a null case. It's not as bad as ashersky's case on efhw was, because, yeah he was lurking, and that's a case. But it is in no way compelling, and I'm frankly not surprised that people who thought it was a weak case yesterday aren't bringing it up.
Now, today, AHoppy has attacked chairs a bit, and threatened to vote for xeiron. That could be suspicious if he's going for easy cases, or it could be town looking at the most suspicious things that have happened this game.
The conclusion that theorel gives when Twisted asks him to give his full opinion of AHoppy is
Schrodinger's Cat. I don't know which it is, and make no attempt to say it is one or the other.
If someone does something which only makes sense for scum, then they are a lot scummier for it, but technically they could be doing something as town that just doesn't make sense. (Town does this sometimes anyways, some players more than others)
If someone does something that can make sense as town or as scum, then they're slightly scummier for it. It makes sense either way, but if you do lots of things that makes sense for scum, well that's what scum does.
If someone does something that only makes sense for town, then they're townier for it. Sometimes scum does these things, but ultimately if we find people scummy for being pro-town then we're defeating ourselves.
which basically just defines WIFOM. Well that's not really helpful. This is the second odd connection between AHoppy/theorel, so I'm inclined to think that theorel is scum => Ahoppy is scum.