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[faust]

In fact, the argument e is making makes me feel bad about him. He might think that we have "proven" scum to have redirection independently of WW's and my alignment because he already knows scum has redirecting powers.

[faust]

Vote: e

[2.71828.....]

well, I guess better phrasing would have been "assuming you were both telling the truth"

Basically assuming you are both town, but not exactly.

[2.71828.....]

In fact, the argument e is making makes me feel bad about him. He might think that we have "proven" scum to have redirection independently of WW's and my alignment because he already knows scum has redirecting powers.

Which is also why I was pushing so hard for yuma to shoot last night

[Teproc]

Ok then.

First of all : faust's claim is very believable to me. On day 1, I noted to myself that faust's play reminded me of what he did in Paris Mafia. In that game... well the setup was complicated, but faust basically played in such a way that he would be suspected while not being lynched. It's a bit more complex than that, but basically he changed his play to avoid both nightkills and lynches because he was a very important PR. I felt that his less involved, less leading playstyle here fit that narrative.

Then there's the fact that I don't think it makes a ton of sense for him to claim a result like this as scum. Maybe he is a Mafia Ninja Tracker, but even then, if he was just claiming to save his life he would not claim a guity result, and if he was trying to frame WW... well that might go poorly for him in a bunch of different ways, very risky for no real reason. As I mentioned before, i'm fairly certain that his claim, real or not, was prepared beforehand.

[Teproc]

Then let's get to WW.

First of all, the flavor. The "man with no fear" was indeed the breadcrumbing I picked up on, and I did expect him to claim Daredevil here. Motion Detector makes sense for that character too (in fact WW has a second bit of breadcrumbing about "feeling" something).

So, I think WW is telling the truth about his role. Much like faust though, it absolutely can be a scum role. However I don't know if there is a scum role in the Marvel universe (only being familiar with the MCU myself) that would fit it.

[Teproc]

Then... is WW scum ?

Well... his claim is townie. Not only because I believe the role/flavor, but also because it's not neat at all. He claims to have targeted Hydrad, not silver... this either means faust is lying (I don't think so) or shenanigans.

I'm not seeing very easy explanations for shenanigans, but this is a close setup and redirection is a hard thing to figure out...

[Teproc]

What type of redirection is there ? The only one I'm familiar with is Bus Driver.

If scum has a Bus Driver, what do they do N1 ? Their main fear has to be yuma shooting. So they bus drive one of their own with a townie they'd like to see dead. In this case, faust tracked that townie, and that townie targeted silverspawn ? Doesn't make a lot of sense. Make sense the other way around though, if WW is the townie, and faust saw what the bus driven scum did : kill silverspawn.

Huh, that's interesting. What are the other redirection roles typically ?

[Teproc]

I guess we should have Hydrad confirm he didn't take an action last night at some point too.

[iguanaiguana]

I want to hear Ampharos' and Yuma's opinions on this situation, particularly what they think of Faust now. I am not as convinced by him as others seem to be.

A wise man once told me to use Occam's razor in situations like this and Occam's razor is telling me that someone is lying, not that some third party just so happened to use redirection to make Faust's results go awry.

[Teproc]

I want to hear Ampharos' and Yuma's opinions on this situation, particularly what they think of Faust now. I am not as convinced by him as others seem to be.

A wise man once told me to use Occam's razor in situations like this and Occam's razor is telling me that someone is lying, not that some third party just so happened to use redirection to make Faust's results go awry.

In that case, why does Occam's Razor point to faust more than WW ?

[iguanaiguana]

What type of redirection is there ? The only one I'm familiar with is Bus Driver.

If scum has a Bus Driver, what do they do N1 ? Their main fear has to be yuma shooting. So they bus drive one of their own with a townie they'd like to see dead. In this case, faust tracked that townie, and that townie targeted silverspawn ? Doesn't make a lot of sense. Make sense the other way around though, if WW is the townie, and faust saw what the bus driven scum did : kill silverspawn.

Huh, that's interesting. What are the other redirection roles typically ?

FWIW, there is a simple kind of redirection role called "redirector"

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Redirector

So it's possible that the scum team killed Silver and then redirected Faust onto the person who killed Silver, so that Faust would think that whoever he targeted was targeting Silver. Seems risky though. What if Faust was a vigilante? Although that's less likely when they already knew that Yuma is a random vigilante.

So yeah, it's possible. There are universes here where both of these people could be telling the truth.

[iguanaiguana]

replace "Silver" with "silver"

[Teproc]

There is no scenario in which scum, having a Redirector, does not use it on yuma.

Unless, do we know if yuma's role can be redirected at all ? I feel like yuma asked that at some point, can't remember the answer, will try to find it.

[iguanaiguana]

I want to hear Ampharos' and Yuma's opinions on this situation, particularly what they think of Faust now. I am not as convinced by him as others seem to be.

A wise man once told me to use Occam's razor in situations like this and Occam's razor is telling me that someone is lying, not that some third party just so happened to use redirection to make Faust's results go awry.

In that case, why does Occam's Razor point to faust more than WW ?

WW has claimed breadcrumbing. Though according to your read, Faust's playstyle indicates a kind of loose breadcrumbing also. I'm not saying it's Faust necessarily. I'm saying why are we taking it for granted that these accounts are both true?

[2.71828.....]

What type of redirection is there ? The only one I'm familiar with is Bus Driver.

If scum has a Bus Driver, what do they do N1 ? Their main fear has to be yuma shooting. So they bus drive one of their own with a townie they'd like to see dead. In this case, faust tracked that townie, and that townie targeted silverspawn ? Doesn't make a lot of sense. Make sense the other way around though, if WW is the townie, and faust saw what the bus driven scum did : kill silverspawn.

Huh, that's interesting. What are the other redirection roles typically ?

FWIW, there is a simple kind of redirection role called "redirector"

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Redirector

So it's possible that the scum team killed Silver and then redirected Faust onto the person who killed Silver, so that Faust would think that whoever he targeted was targeting Silver. Seems risky though. What if Faust was a vigilante? Although that's less likely when they already knew that Yuma is a random vigilante.

So yeah, it's possible. There are universes here where both of these people could be telling the truth.

Scum would not know faust was a PR.  In particular, they would not know he was a tracker.

[Teproc]

WW's breadcrumbing is completely null. It makes his claim more believeable, but it does not make him more likely to be town. He could be a Mafia Motion Detector.

[2.71828.....]

There is no scenario in which scum, having a Redirector, does not use it on yuma.

Unless, do we know if yuma's role can be redirected at all ? I feel like yuma asked that at some point, can't remember the answer, will try to find it.

Unless scum decided that yuma would not shoot and decided to risk using it elsewhere.

[Teproc]

Speaking of which... WW, is there anything you're not telling us about the role ?

Just answer yes or no please.

PPE : WHy though ? They're just going to go for a random redirection knowing nothing about anyone's role rather than going for the Random Vig who clearly had a decent chance of shooting ? Which is both huge upside to redirect and potential for huge downside ? I don't buy it.

[iguanaiguana]

There is no scenario in which scum, having a Redirector, does not use it on yuma.

Unless, do we know if yuma's role can be redirected at all ? I feel like yuma asked that at some point, can't remember the answer, will try to find it.

What about the scenario where scum says "Hey, Yuma probably won't shoot. Let's not waste our redirector on a named townie." ?

PPE: you addressed one of these.

More importantly, what about the scenario where Yuma is on the scum team?

[2.71828.....]

WW's breadcrumbing is completely null. It makes his claim more believeable, but it does not make him more likely to be town. He could be a Mafia Motion Detector.

This is true. 

Flavor matters.  Non-Heroes will receive adequate information to safely claim.  That said, no flavor knowledge is required to play this game.

Mafia could very well have worked on flavor N0 and known what they would fakeclaim.  Then opening up with breadcrumbs for a fakeclaim would be very beneficial to scum.

[Witherweaver]

Speaking of which... WW, is there anything you're not telling us about the role ?

Just answer yes or no please.

No.

[faust]

There is no scenario in which scum, having a Redirector, does not use it on yuma.

Unless, do we know if yuma's role can be redirected at all ? I feel like yuma asked that at some point, can't remember the answer, will try to find it.

I do not agree...

And I think yuma stated that his role works like any other night action, i.e. can be subject to redirection.

[Witherweaver]

WW's breadcrumbing is completely null. It makes his claim more believeable, but it does not make him more likely to be town. He could be a Mafia Motion Detector.

This is true. 

Flavor matters.  Non-Heroes will receive adequate information to safely claim.  That said, no flavor knowledge is required to play this game.

Mafia could very well have worked on flavor N0 and known what they would fakeclaim.  Then opening up with breadcrumbs for a fakeclaim would be very beneficial to scum.

But even then, where does that get you?  Do you think I preplanned to fakeclaim targetting Hydrad?

[yuma]

In fact, the argument e is making makes me feel bad about him. He might think that we have "proven" scum to have redirection independently of WW's and my alignment because he already knows scum has redirecting powers.

I kinda felt the same way.