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[jaketheyak]

Man, if you don't like the mats, don't use the mats.
Have yourself a little mat bonfire.

If you're worried about the increased cost of having mats and tokens in the expansion, I feel for you.
But it's going to be a fractional increase in the cost of something that is a luxury purchase anyway.

MSRP is the same as other expansions

Well, it's the same $44.95 as Intrigue, Prosperity, Seaside and Dark Ages.
Which all either have 500 cards or have 300 cards plus mats/tokens.

Hinterlands is $5 cheaper, with the same number of cards as Seaside & Prosperity, but no mats/tokens.
So, we can't really pretend that the mats/tokens have zero impact on the cost of the expansion.

But given that Adventures has 400 cards and mats/tokens, I think a MSRP of $44.95 makes it a relative bargain.
Especially when you factor in that it has sixty tokens, which is about the number of tokens in Seaside & Prosperity combined.

[Donald X.]

We play Duration cards sideways and then "untap" them when they resolve.

There is a group of Wizards (they live on the Coast) who might want to talk with you about that...

Richard Garfield, who playtested Seaside, preferred playing durations tapped, then untapping them on the next turn.

It's popular to believe that the TCG patent including tapping caused the addition of tapping as something protected, rather than limiting what was protected to things that included tapping. It's moot now that the patent has expired though (it's dated 1993 and they last 20 years, in the US anyway).

[jaketheyak]

We play Duration cards sideways and then "untap" them when they resolve.

There is a group of Wizards (they live on the Coast) who might want to talk with you about that...

Richard Garfield, who playtested Seaside, preferred playing durations tapped, then untapping them on the next turn.

It's popular to believe that the TCG patent including tapping caused the addition of tapping as something protected, rather than limiting what was protected to things that included tapping. It's moot now that the patent has expired though (it's dated 1993 and they last 20 years, in the US anyway).

If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, there was no legal reason not to use tapping as the mechanic for Durations.
So, why did you ultimately decide on the "different row" mechanic?
Was this actually the preferred mechanic in playtesting or was it just the easiest to explain in the rulebook?
Or were you trying to avoid similarities with Magic for other reasons unrelated to patents?

[Donald X.]

If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, there was no legal reason not to use tapping as the mechanic for Durations.
So, why did you ultimately decide on the "different row" mechanic?
Was this actually the preferred mechanic in playtesting or was it just the easiest to explain in the rulebook?
Or were you trying to avoid similarities with Magic for other reasons unrelated to patents?

Well, the lack of a legal reason doesn't mean you want to annoy people who can annoy you back. And the patent hadn't expired yet when Seaside came out. Also I didn't get to write that rulebook (except the intro and FAQ).

[Witherweaver]

I don't know why people complain about mats, mats are fine, they can't all be the best game mechanic ever.

Damn it I did not even see that one coming.

[dondon151]

But given that Adventures has 400 cards and mats/tokens, I think a MSRP of $44.95 makes it a relative bargain.

You never know, the mats could just be napkins, and the tokens could just be spitballs. Those seem like cost-effective materials.

[jaketheyak]

If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, there was no legal reason not to use tapping as the mechanic for Durations.
So, why did you ultimately decide on the "different row" mechanic?
Was this actually the preferred mechanic in playtesting or was it just the easiest to explain in the rulebook?
Or were you trying to avoid similarities with Magic for other reasons unrelated to patents?

Well, the lack of a legal reason doesn't mean you want to annoy people who can annoy you back. And the patent hadn't expired yet when Seaside came out. Also I didn't get to write that rulebook (except the intro and FAQ).

Don't unnecessarily annoy WotC. Good advice.

But given that Adventures has 400 cards and mats/tokens, I think a MSRP of $44.95 makes it a relative bargain.

You never know, the mats could just be napkins, and the tokens could just be spitballs. Those seem like cost-effective materials.

Ah, but whose spit?
Some people would pay a lot of money for certain people's spit.

[Polk5440]

If you're worried about the increased cost of having mats and tokens in the expansion, I feel for you.
But it's going to be a fractional increase in the cost of something that is a luxury purchase anyway.

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to monetary cost. I don't think anyone was. Having nice components is certainly worth a few extra dollars.

It's about the setup time while playing the game with all these extra pieces, fiddling time of messing around with tokens, and added confusion and increased error on the part of players. I play with people who play Dominion maybe a few times a year; they do not want to be spending half the night fiddling with things and making mistakes. And neither do I want to be on high alert all the time monitoring others' play, handing out the appropriate tokens, making sure people don't draw from their face down NV mat, etc. I want to be socializing, too.

So when I look at buying a physical copy of a game (or an expansion) it matters a lot if I will want to play it with people who don't play very often. 

Richard Garfield, who playtested Seaside, preferred playing durations tapped, then untapping them on the next turn.

I really like this idea. I am going to try it next time.

[jaketheyak]

Well, Donald has always said that each new expansion is, by its very nature, going to be more complex than the last.
So tokens or not, if your friends struggle to follow the rules, any expansion beyond Hinterlands is going to be problematic.

[werothegreat]

I'd like to speculate that either the Reserve or Event cards will be colored black, with white text.

I'd also like to speculate that one of the Reserves will be a Moat-like thing that can block Attacks on a whim.

[Kirian]

We play Duration cards sideways and then "untap" them when they resolve.

There is a group of Wizards (they live on the Coast) who might want to talk with you about that...

Richard Garfield, who playtested Seaside, preferred playing durations tapped, then untapping them on the next turn.

It's popular to believe that the TCG patent including tapping caused the addition of tapping as something protected, rather than limiting what was protected to things that included tapping. It's moot now that the patent has expired though (it's dated 1993 and they last 20 years, in the US anyway).

Apparently my joke-fu was not strong when writing that post.

[pst]

We will see new Duration cards. This is a design space that hasn't been explored that much, since all existing Duration cards leave play the turn after you play them, whereas the Duration mechanic makes it possible for them to be in play longer than that. I expect Durations that you can feed somehow to keep in play turn after turn (If there ever are to be more Durations, a big set is the right place for it, where there can be enough of them to justify including all about Durations in the rules again.) [/li][/list]

So finally Hireling, a Duration that isn't discarded the very next turn. It's the other extreme, never being discarded, so I'm still waiting the middle ground with something you can keep in play for some time.

[crlundy]

We will see new Duration cards. This is a design space that hasn't been explored that much, since all existing Duration cards leave play the turn after you play them, whereas the Duration mechanic makes it possible for them to be in play longer than that. I expect Durations that you can feed somehow to keep in play turn after turn (If there ever are to be more Durations, a big set is the right place for it, where there can be enough of them to justify including all about Durations in the rules again.) [/li][/list]

So finally Hireling, a Duration that isn't discarded the very next turn. It's the other extreme, never being discarded, so I'm still waiting the middle ground with something you can keep in play for some time.

Reserve cards kinda fill that need.

[Donald X.]

So finally Hireling, a Duration that isn't discarded the very next turn. It's the other extreme, never being discarded, so I'm still waiting the middle ground with something you can keep in play for some time.

Treasury

[werothegreat]

So finally Hireling, a Duration that isn't discarded the very next turn. It's the other extreme, never being discarded, so I'm still waiting the middle ground with something you can keep in play for some time.

Treasury

A Duration Treasury that got discarded when you bought a Victory card would be a lot stronger, methinks.

[Donald X.]

A Duration Treasury that got discarded when you bought a Victory card would be a lot stronger, methinks.

I guess you are picturing getting the +1 Card and +1 Action every turn? Treasury gives you +$1 every turn for a while.

[werothegreat]

A Duration Treasury that got discarded when you bought a Victory card would be a lot stronger, methinks.

I guess you are picturing getting the +1 Card and +1 Action every turn? Treasury gives you +$1 every turn for a while.

Not at all.

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.

This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).

[Donald X.]

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.

This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).

This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.

Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.

[werothegreat]

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.

This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).

This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.

Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.

At the start of each turn until you buy a Victory card?

[GendoIkari]

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.

This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).

This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.

Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.

At the start of each turn until you buy a Victory card?

It's still pretty much the same effect as Treasury. It's not nearly as much of a new card as it is a possible re-wording of treasury that would change certain interactions. It would be slightly stronger, not a lot stronger.

[markusin]

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.

This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).

This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.

Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.

At the start of each turn until you buy a Victory card?

Add "while this is in play".

[crlundy]

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.

This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).

This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.

Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.

At the start of each turn until you buy a Victory card?

Add "while this is in play".

Then it will just be discarded the turn you play it since no on-play effect is keeping it out.

[Asper]

If you wanted to remake Treasury as a Duration, here's what i'd do:

Treasury, $4, Treasure - Duration
Worth 1$ each turn this is in play.
(Only discard this from play at the end of your turn if you bought a Victory card).

I don't know Donald's opinion on this, but given the name and how similarly it behaves, i am pretty sure this (a Copper that produces $1 every turn) is the basic concept of Treasury anyhow (at least i was sure enough to state it whenever the topic of Duration-Treasures appeared). But hey, i was also sure Altar was a pun on alter, and i've been dead wrong with that one.

Edit: I don't actually think Treasury should be redone.

[Jimmmmm]

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
At the end of your turn, if you did not buy any cards this turn, you may discard this.

EDIT: This is not supposed to be Treasury.

[GendoIkari]

If you wanted to remake Treasury, here's what i'd do:

Treasury, $4, Treasure - Duration
Worth 1$ each turn this is in play.
(Only discard this from play at the end of your turn if you bought a Victory card).

I don't know Donald's opinion on this, but given the name and how similarly it behaves, i am pretty sure this is the basic concept of Treasury anyhow (at least i was sure enough to state it whenever the topic of Duration-Treasures appeared). But hey, i was also sure Altar was a pun on alter, and i've been dead wrong with that one.

This seems quite overpowered. I mean, it's better than Treasury in almost every way, plus it costs $4 instead of $5. The only way in which Treasury is strong is that the turn you play this, you get 1 less card.

Also, the wording is very awkward. First off, saying that it is "worth $1 each turn", while not too hard to figure out what the intent is, doesn't really work in Dominion rules. It doesn't matter what a Treasure is worth unless you play that Treasure. It needs to give you $1 to spend each turn. And then it needs to specify when you get that (at the start of your turn, at the start of your buy phase, etc). Because of Black Market and Storyteller. And then the discard condition is wonky. A parenthetical phrase is usually a reminder or an additional piece of information about something you need to do; not the main instruction of how the card should be discarded. There's no reason for it to be a Duration at all if it's just going to state on it that it doesn't get discarded as normal.