Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Adventures Previews => Topic started by: pst on October 22, 2014, 04:55:21 am
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Here are my guesses:
- We will see new Duration cards. This is a design space that hasn't been explored that much, since all existing Duration cards leave play the turn after you play them, whereas the Duration mechanic makes it possible for them to be in play longer than that. I expect Durations that you can feed somehow to keep in play turn after turn (If there ever are to be more Durations, a big set is the right place for it, where there can be enough of them to justify including all about Durations in the rules again.)
- We will see a new card costing $1
- We will see anew card with an oversized pile (like Rats). Maybe a small-value victory card.
- There will be a few cards that are similar to some existing fan cards.
That's my groundless speculation. How about yours?
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- We will see new Duration cards. This is a design space that hasn't been explored that much, since all existing Duration cards leave play the turn after you play them, whereas the Duration mechanic makes it possible for them to be in play longer than that. I expect Durations that you can feed somehow to keep in play turn after turn (If there ever are to be more Durations, a big set is the right place for it, where there can be enough of them to justify including all about Durations in the rules again.)
I thought about new durations, too. But then, there's Prince being released as Promo, which would have fitted that set, and cards that stay forever are probably very powerful and therefore, hard to balance.
On the other hand, maybe there could be something like durations that do nothing in the first place but can be discarted to do some cool stuff, so you have to set them aside again, or just be trashed.
I'm also thinking something new with Curses could be done. I think I somewhere picked up that there will never be Curse multi type cards, because Curses don't count as being a "type", but what if a card would tell you to replace the Curse pile with something else on setup, and players gain one of that other card when they would gain a Curse?
/E: Maybe the fancard makers are more suited to speculate here. I guess they're more into stuff that hasn't been done with Dominion, yet.
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My guesses
We will have a village, a junker, a terminal draw, a trasher, a green card, and a reaction. Oh, and something that gives +Buy And, a workshop variant.
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What might be more constructive is what we'd like to see.....maybe someone will notice......
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new duration cards: yea, i was thinking about that too. it would be pretty cool.
new card costing 1$: I very, very much doubt it
new oversized pile: also don't think that.
similar to fan cards: well, there are way more fan cards than this forum suggests (try using google search), even though most of them are pretty bad. So, dunno. but it'll be interesting to look for that.
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There will be a few cards that are similar to some existing fan cards.
I imagine there is a similar effect that occurs in music composition -- at this point, without introducing big new mechanics, just by the number of possible combinations, at least some things will be close to something that has been tried before. (For instance, probably every vanilla combination of +buy/+action/+coin/+card that is at all reasonable has been proposed.) I think Donald X has said that one of the reasons he doesn't evaluate fan cards is to avoid insinuations that he's copying them!
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- We will see new Duration cards. This is a design space that hasn't been explored that much, since all existing Duration cards leave play the turn after you play them, whereas the Duration mechanic makes it possible for them to be in play longer than that. I expect Durations that you can feed somehow to keep in play turn after turn (If there ever are to be more Durations, a big set is the right place for it, where there can be enough of them to justify including all about Durations in the rules again.)
I thought about new durations, too. But then, there's Prince being released as Promo, which would have fitted that set, and cards that stay forever are probably very powerful and therefore, hard to balance.
Yes, but there is a lot of middle ground between being active only extra turn and active for the rest of the game. Like I said it could be that you have to "feed" it to keep it active. Like "when this is in play you may put a Silver on it. If you do +$2, and at the beginning of your next turn discard the Silver and +$2". You can have that going for awhile, but eventually you won't have that Silver, and the duration will be discarded during cleanup. (That's not an actual suggestion for a card. Just an example of what kind of thing I mean.)
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I think I somewhere picked up that there will never be Curse multi type cards, because Curses don't count as being a "type"
Of course Curses count as a type. The problem is that "Curse" is both the name of the card and the name of the type, so having any other card with the type "Curse" but a different name would be confusing.
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Perhaps it will be an ironman expansion. "When you trash this card, physically destroy it. Set aside the pieces".
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Perhaps it will be an ironman expansion. "When you trash this card, physically destroy it. Set aside the pieces".
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?size=small&type=card&name=Chaos%20Confetti&options=)
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There will be a new mechanic. Every expansion has had one. I see no reason why this one would be different.
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Perhaps it will be an ironman expansion. "When you trash this card, physically destroy it. Set aside the pieces".
Dominion: Legacy, in the manner of Risk: Legacy.
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Given the size of the expansion (400 cards), another new basic card might be introduced that a lot of the cards interact with. We've already had new shit cards and new starting cards, as well new card cost, so, yeah, something like that?
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There will be a new mechanic. Every expansion has had one. I see no reason why this one would be different.
Hinterlands didn't have one, did it?
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There will be a new mechanic. Every expansion has had one. I see no reason why this one would be different.
Hinterlands didn't have one, did it?
Hinterlands almost introduced the on-buy mechanic, although it was already on Mint.
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There will be a new mechanic. Every expansion has had one. I see no reason why this one would be different.
Hinterlands didn't have one, did it?
Hinterlands almost introduced the on-buy mechanic, although it was already on Mint.
Hinterlands introduced on-gain effects. Prosperity actually has a bunch of on-buy effects if you count Talisman, Hoard, etc.
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What might be more constructive is what we'd like to see.....maybe someone will notice......
I doubt it given that it's probably already pretty close to finalised by now, and may even be going to print by this stage.
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Hinterlands introduced on-gain effects.
okay, if that counts. i mean, it's very similar to on-buy effects. but I guess it's a new mechanic.
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Are there any existing card mechanics that have not been paired together, that would be a possibility? (not Action-Treasure...)
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There will be a new mechanic. Every expansion has had one. I see no reason why this one would be different.
How many cards using a new mechanic does it take to associate it with the expansion? Dark Ages had several new mechanics (gaining cards from the trash, "upgrading" to non-supply cards, random supply piles), but none was used for more than 2 or 3 card piles. I'd say neither mechanic was essential to Dark Ages on its own, the common denominator of the expansion was the well-known mechanic of trashing. (The Shelters supported this mechanic, but I wouldn't consider them quintessential either.)
Similarly, Cornucopia had only a theme of "caring about variety", but I wouldn't call it a new mechanic.
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Hinterlands introduced on-gain effects.
okay, if that counts. i mean, it's very similar to on-buy effects. but I guess it's a new mechanic.
According to the secret histories, Hinterlands was designed to be a simple expansion that would be good for new players to get familiar with the game. This might explain its simple mechanics, simple concepts (sifting, on-gain), and lack of add-on stuff (mats and tokens and whatnot).
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There will be a new mechanic. Every expansion has had one. I see no reason why this one would be different.
How many cards using a new mechanic does it take to associate it with the expansion? Dark Ages had several new mechanics (gaining cards from the trash, "upgrading" to non-supply cards, random supply piles), but none was used for more than 2 or 3 card piles. I'd say neither mechanic was essential to Dark Ages on its own, the common denominator of the expansion was the well-known mechanic of trashing. (The Shelters supported this mechanic, but I wouldn't consider them quintessential either.)
Similarly, Cornucopia had only a theme of "caring about variety", but I wouldn't call it a new mechanic.
Dark Ages in also a rather combo-heavy expansion.
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What we CAN speculate about with some grounding is the color of the box.
So far we've had:
Pink (light red), ____, Orange, Yellow (base cards), Green-Yellow, Green, Light Blue, ____, Purple, Brown, Dark Brown, Grey.
The blank ones would be Red (dark Pink) and Dark Blue. The only other reasonable options would be Black and White.
From the color, we could probably also guess the theme:
Red: War, something Renaissance
Dark Blue: More Durations
Black: Something Industry or Gunpowder related
White: Something religion or Enlightenment-related
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There will be a new mechanic. Every expansion has had one. I see no reason why this one would be different.
New Mechanic, $5 Action
+$2
When you gain this, look at the Instructions/FAQ and argue with the player on your left about how you think this interacts with Possession.
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My guess is the new expansion will have bees.
Beekeeper - $4 Action/Attack
+$4
Everyone gains a Bee
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My guess is the new expansion will have bees.
Beekeeper - $4 Action/Attack
+$4
Everyone gains a Bee
I'M COVERED IN BEEEEES
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My guess is the new expansion will have bees.
Beekeeper - $4 Action/Attack
+$4
Everyone gains a Bee
I'M COVERED IN BEEEEES
(http://www.maxistentialism.com/bees/oprahbees.gif)
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My guess is the new expansion will have bees.
Beekeeper - $4 Action/Attack
+$4
Everyone gains a Bee
(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55542020.jpg)
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Black: Something Industry or Gunpowder related
+1
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Black: Something Industry or Gunpowder related
Dominion: Gunpowder confirmed!
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Black: Something Industry or Gunpowder related
Dominion: Gunpowder confirmed!
Gunpowder!!! It's going to be the...
Oh, whatever.
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I just hope it helps some of the cards which have few opportunities to shine.
I love when cards like Counting House and Coppersmith are good, but that's such a small percentage of games they appear in.
Cards that do novel things no other cards does are always going to be very situational.
I hope this new expansions give us more of those situations.
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Dominion: Treason!
Or maybe
Dominion: Revolutions
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Dominion: Capitulation
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Dominion: Revolutions
The Dominion game where Kung-Fu Jesus gets sacrificed? How 'bout no.
(Why did I even go to see that in the theater??)
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Maybe it adds a board.
Dominion: Trains
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Dominion: Capitulation
Because Donald said Guilds was it. Now that the joke has been explained maybe it can be funny?
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The new set will be called "Enterprise", and include a Trade token mechanic.
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The new set will be called "Enterprise", and include a Trade token mechanic.
The new set will be called "Enterprise," and will include a Warp Drive mechanic and 25 Photon Torpedo cards.
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I just hope it helps some of the cards which have few opportunities to shine.
That would be cool, but I more hope it somehow takes luster off the cards that shine on almost every board. I'm not sure how that would work exactly, especially for randomly chosen kingdoms where the best you can do is change the probability of a card being not-dominant on a kingdom... maybe lots of strong new reactions?
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Dominion: Revolutions
Mechanic: Cards with different effects depending on how they're oriented.
Other mechanics that have come up in wild mass guessing for previous expansions that I haven't seen yet, or that I've blatantly stolen from other games:
Dexterity (Hat $3 Action-Duration: Put this on your head. At the start of your buy phase, +$1 for each Hat on your head. When this falls off your head, discard it from play)
Endgame (Cards from the outtakes that did something at the end of the game)
Startgame (Cards that affect how the games starts)
Scenarios (Each player starts with a different initial deck)
Legacy (Use a sharpie to claim cards as your own!)
Co-operative mode (Team up to take down Lord Bottington!)
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Hat will be a nightmare for online play. "Remember to tell me if your hat falls off. And you're not tracking your deck on paper, are you?"
Hat might be weaker if you gain a hat, adding it you your head. After a point it would get progressively worse when stacked.
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I just had the great idea to use my IRL cards when I'm playing online! Thanks qmech!
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I just had the great idea to use my IRL cards when I'm playing online! Thanks qmech!
I do it all the time because I can cheat by looking at the opponent's draw pile and know exactly what he has in his deck.
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I just had the great idea to use my IRL cards when I'm playing online! Thanks qmech!
I do it all the time because I can cheat by looking at the opponent's draw pile and know exactly what he has in his deck.
It's even more useful to use them to know what's in my opponent's hand and what my next 5 cards are when I'm deciding whether to break PPR. If I see he doesn't have enough for a Province and I can get one next turn, breaking PPR is correct.
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OK, here is some more groundless speculation about the upcoming set. Some potential card names:
Chasm
Empyrean
Flying Machine
Bottomless Pit
Erosion
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Mountebank's Evil Twin
$2
Your opponent may gain any combination of two of your choice: a potion, a ruins, a copper, or a curse.
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Mountebank's Evil Twin
$2
Your opponent may gain any combination of two of your choice: a potion, a ruins, a copper, or a curse.
evil, because...
Border Patrolman: Good evening, gentlemen.
Jimbo Kern: Hello there, fellow American. We're just anxious to get back to our homeland.
Border Patrolman: All right, I just need to ask you a few questions.
Jimbo Kern: Fire away. We have nothing to hide.
Border Patrolman: Is anyone other than the two of you traveling in this vehicle?
Jimbo Kern: No sir.
Border Patrolman: Do you have any firearms or explosives in the car?
Jimbo Kern: Yes. I mean no! No.
Border Patrolman: Open your trunk please, sir.
Jimbo Kern: Damn! Damn, I always get that question wrong!
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The speculation doesn't seem to be quite as good this time as with previous expansions. It may be because all the best speculators ended up being play testers and are now sworn to secrecy ...
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The speculation doesn't seem to be quite as good this time as with previous expansions. It may be because all the best speculators ended up being play testers and are now sworn to secrecy ...
What did the groundless speculation look like last time? I think it only really picked up when the name of the set was announced.
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The speculation doesn't seem to be quite as good this time as with previous expansions. It may be because all the best speculators ended up being play testers and are now sworn to secrecy ...
What did the groundless speculation look like last time? I think it only really picked up when the name of the set was announced.
yeah, I mean, we aren't going to see this set for another 6 months at least I would assume. There is plenty of time for further speculation to get "better"
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I am hoping there won't be new token types or new mats.
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I had a dream about a couple of new cards. One card was something like this:
$3 Action
+1 Action
Take a X token (the token had a name, but I forgot what it was). You may spend any number of X tokens. For each token spent, look at the top card of your deck and discard it or put it back. (I think it could have also had the option to trash the card?)
The other was a $5 Action with +1 card and +$1, and it did something else too, but I don't remember what it was. It had two words in its name, but I also forgot what those words were.
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dreams about new card are awesome
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Well, Jay finally revealed it today so I can talk about it.
Dominion's moved away from the typical board game format and participating in an experimental new method of delivery: cards being inserted directly in to dreams. You'll see the new cards gradually appear and be able to play with them in an idealistic environment, greatly improving your experience.
News article here: http://riograndegames.com/getMedia/89 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqz--Rf6IIo)
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Well, Jay finally revealed it today so I can talk about it.
Dominion's moved away from the typical board game format and participating in a experimental new method of delivery: cards being inserted directly in to dreams. You'll see the new cards gradually appear and be able to play with them in an idealistic environment, greatly improving your experience.
News article here: http://riograndegames.com/getMedia/89 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqz--Rf6IIo)
That's pretty impressive. No wonder they did so much play testing with fds members.
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$3 Action
+1 Action
Take a X token (the token had a name, but I forgot what it was). You may spend any number of X tokens. For each token spent, look at the top card of your deck and discard it or put it back. (I think it could have also had the option to trash the card?)
With an ability like that? Must be the Bomb tokens.
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Dim Onion: Anagrams
Confirmed: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg432848#msg432848
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Dim Onion: Anagrams
Confirmed: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg432848#msg432848
Hornet Moor
$4 - Action
Play an action card from your hand. After resolving it, play it again.
Iron Captors
$4 - Action
If this is neither the first nor the second Action you've played this turn: +1 Card; +1 Action; +$2. Otherwise, +$2.
Eager Mine
$3 - Action
+1 Card; +1 Action.
Reveal your hand. If ever card revealed is differently named, +2 Cards.
Graph Creator
$5 - Action
+1 Card; +1 Action.
Set aside your hand. +4 cards. You may put any number of cards from your hand on top of your deck. Discard your hand. Return the set aside cards to your hand.
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Graph Creator
$5 - Action
+1 Card; +1 Action.
Set aside your hand. +4 cards. You may put any number of cards from your hand on top of your deck. Discard your hand. Return the set aside cards to your hand.
Not strictly the same as Cartographer, since if you discard a tunnel and gain a gold, you can't then reveal your set aside watchtower to topdeck it.
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Graph Creator
$5 - Action
+1 Card; +1 Action.
Set aside your hand. +4 cards. You may put any number of cards from your hand on top of your deck. Discard your hand. Return the set aside cards to your hand.
Not strictly the same as Cartographer, since if you discard a tunnel and gain a gold, you can't then reveal your set aside watchtower to topdeck it.
But Cartographer and Graph Creator are not the same cards, the same way Menagerie and Eager Mine aren't either.
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Graph Creator
$5 - Action
+1 Card; +1 Action.
Set aside your hand. +4 cards. You may put any number of cards from your hand on top of your deck. Discard your hand. Return the set aside cards to your hand.
Not strictly the same as Cartographer, since if you discard a tunnel and gain a gold, you can't then reveal your set aside watchtower to topdeck it.
But Cartographer and Graph Creator are not the same cards, the same way Menagerie and Eager Mine aren't either.
Both of them are weaker. :(
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Dim Onion: Anagrams
Confirmed: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg432848#msg432848
Mr. Dark Agent
$6 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
________
When you buy this, if you have any Copper in play, +1 Buy and you do not gain this.
Mare Pasture
$4 - Action
Trash another Mare Pasture from your hand. If you do, gain four Golds. Trash this.
________
While this is in play, when you gain a card, put it on top of your deck.
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Mr. Dark Agent
$6 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
________
When you buy this, if you have any Copper in play, +1 Buy and you do not gain this.
Moar edge cases! If you play two highways and buy this with a Talisman in play, you can still gain the copy even if you have copper in play.
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Mr. Dark Agent
$6 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
________
When you buy this, if you have any Copper in play, +1 Buy and you do not gain this.
Moar edge cases! If you play two highways and buy this with a Talisman in play, you can still gain the copy even if you have copper in play.
Nice. You can also avoid trashing a played Hermit while getting nothing in your buy phase. I can think of an edge case for Mare Pasture too.
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Mr. Dark Agent is likely even stronger than expected, because with cost reduction down to 0, you can generate in infinite number of buys. Merchant Guild and Goons are quite happy about this.
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The speculation doesn't seem to be quite as good this time as with previous expansions. It may be because all the best speculators ended up being play testers and are now sworn to secrecy ...
What did the groundless speculation look like last time? I think it only really picked up when the name of the set was announced.
I think the real speculation started not when the name was announced, but when Donald's description was posted. Ironic cheese destroyers and all that.
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Mr. Dark Agent is likely even stronger than expected, because with cost reduction down to 0, you can generate in infinite number of buys. Merchant Guild and Goons are quite happy about this.
Wow, you're right, it's totally OP. Should replace the +1 Buy in the on-buy clause with -1 coin token and -1 VP token. Although that could make it bad if someone plays a Piss Nooses on you.
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Mr. Dark Agent is likely even stronger than expected, because with cost reduction down to 0, you can generate in infinite number of buys. Merchant Guild and Goons are quite happy about this.
How so? It costs you a buy to buy it, it gives you one back when you fail to gain it. Net 0 buys. Unless I'm missing something major.
I suppose you can USE infinite buys to buy it meaning that you can spend your spare buys on it the way you would instead on copper or peddler, but it'll never give you any more buys than you started with to use I don't think?
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You buy it, get a coin token, unbuy it, rinse and repeat for infinite coin tokens/vp chips.
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Some serious speculations from me as fan card maker (although this doesn't say much, most of Donald's cards have been soo much better than cards I could think of, every expansion had big surprises to me):
Considering that the set has 400 cards, it is quite obvious that there will be "extra" (i.e. non-kingdom) cards. Donald could make another set of just kingdom cards like Hinterlands, but Hinterlands was only 300, and at the given level of complexity, new mechanics are needed. Donald always filled out the card space efficiently, my guess is there will be about 30 kingdom cards (~330 total), so there'd be space for ~70 extra cards.
What could be done with these?
- Other basic cards, as we know from Alchemy and Prosperity (although I can't imagine what to do here).
- Ancillary non-supply piles, as we know from Cornucopia and Dark Ages.
- Alternative starting cards like Shelters, maybe to replace Coppers, or Cantrips that are just added to the starting deck.
- Non-gainable cards that are used for bookkeeping (to mark supply piles - maybe too similar to Embargo/ Trade Route; to mark any player), to count stuff (e.g. how often you shuffle, how often you gained a card), or as Events (like neutral attacks that take place each round or when a player triggers it).
Guesses on the kingdom cards themselves are much harder.
The big themes that are already covered by the existent expansions are flexibility, future, currency/ Actions, buys/ Treasures, variety, gains/ Victory, trash/ cheap, and... again flexibiliy/ future I guess?
There could be overlaps in themes, but Donald always gives us something new as well.
New general themes that come into my mind at the moment are:
- Consistency (it's already covered by Prince, but there could still be things to do here.)
- New sort of interaction (Donald is very cautious with such things but maybe something a la "7 Wonders: Babel"?)
- Cards with different deck speeds (see my idea "queue pile (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11604.0)")
- Timing flexibility (like coin tokens, just more in general, see LFns "Activation cards (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10563.0)")
- Twist on endgame (cards that do things before you score; or special conditions for VP cards).
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- Other basic cards, as we know from Alchemy and Prosperity (although I can't imagine what to do here).
Gunpowder!
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I am hoping there won't be new token types or new mats.
I've been thinking about this, and I think a new mat can actually be cool if the same mat was referenced by multiple cards in the set and hence the cards can interact with each other through the mat. I was thinking something that stores action cards for future use, a natural extension from storing coins for future use.
Below are some cards I thought of that make use of a "Reserves" mat to store actions Cards placed on the mat by one card can be used by another card in the set that also uses the mat. They have no name because I'm not feeling creative today.
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Speculation Card A: Draw
Action - $4
+2 Cards
Choose one: Discard all cards on your Reserves mat and place up to 2 Action cards from your hand onto your Reserves mat; or play all cards on your reserves mat in any order.
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Speculation Card B: Gainer
Action - $3
+ $2
Choose one: Place an Action card from your hand onto your Reserves mat; or place a card from your Reserves mat on top of your deck and gain a card costing up to $1 more than it.
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Speculation Card C: Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Choose one: +1 card; or put a card from your Reserves mat into your hand
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While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may place it onto your Reserves mat.
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A variant of Card C could cost $3 and not provide the +1 card option.
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I am hoping there won't be new token types or new mats.
I've been thinking about this, and I think a new mat can actually be cool if the same mat was referenced by multiple cards in the set and hence the cards can interact with each other through the mat. I was thinking something that stores action cards for future use, a natural extension from storing coins for future use.
Below are some cards I thought of that make use of a "Reserves" mat to store actions Cards placed on the mat by one card can be used by another card in the set that also uses the mat. They have no name because I'm not feeling creative today.
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Speculation Card A: Draw
Action - $4
+2 Cards
Choose one: Discard all cards on your Reserves mat and place up to 2 Action cards from your hand onto your Reserves mat; or play all cards on your reserves mat in any order.
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Speculation Card B: Gainer
Action - $3
+ $2
Choose one: Place an Action card from your hand onto your Reserves mat; or place a card from your Reserves mat on top of your deck and gain a card costing up to $1 more than it.
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Speculation Card C: Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Choose one: +1 card; or put a card from your Reserves mat into your hand
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While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may place it onto your Reserves mat.
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A variant of Card C could cost $3 and not provide the +1 card option.
Card C is extremely powerful. It's a village and it auto-Islands all the green cards that you buy. I think you might want to at least make it mandatory to put the gained cards on the Reserves mat, but that might not nerf it enough.
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Or change it to "When you gain an Action, you may put it on your Reserves mat."
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Or change it to "When you gain an Action, you may put it on your Reserves mat."
Whoops. Uh, that's what it was supposed to be. Only action cards go on the reserves mat.
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Looking at the existing basic card types, I see one combination that hasn't been tried yet: Duration-Attack. What would a Duration-Attack look like? The first idea that comes to my mind is a cost increaser - an anti-Bridge for your opponents if you will. That or something like "silver produces one less" or maybe even "when you play an action, discard a card".
In terms of unexplored areas, Guilds added "flexible coins". The next logical step is "flexible cards" - one time use cards you obtain through whatever means that don't go into your deck but are set aside to be used at your choice. I definitely think there will be non-supply cards based on the announced set size, so something like a special card or cards that give you these flexible cards is plausible. Or maybe cards that get aside on buy to be used whenever, but after the first use go into the deck as normal.
Presumably there will be at least one alt VP card. No ideas there, but I wouldn't mind seeing another vanilla VP-Action card.
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It's highly, highly unlikely for Durations to appear outside of Seaside. We can hope though.
Duration-Attacks have been discussed before, but I am too lazy to search for an old thread. The anti-Bridge has been discussed before as well.
A duration cost-increaser has a couple of design problems. The first is that its interaction with cost reducers can be confusing for many people. The second is that it can cause some broken scenarios where multiple players are playing it every turn and nobody is able to buy anything at all because all the costs are increased too much.
Duration attacks in general can be confusing in their interaction with Moat. You play the attack, I reveal Moat. Am I now defended against your "while in play" attack? If it's a card that attacks now and on the new turn, does my initial Moat protect me on my next turn? Can I reveal a Moat on the next turn to block that latter attack?
These problems don't preclude cards like that from being made, but it does make them unlikely to me.
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Is it April? Didn't we already have our last expansion
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Is it April? Didn't we already have our last expansion
Have I got a surprise for you!
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The first idea that comes to my mind is a cost increaser - an anti-Bridge for your opponents if you will.
The original Cutpurse was exactly this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=117.0.
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Is it April? Didn't we already have our last expansion
Also, bad news, Isotropic is going down.
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Is it April? Didn't we already have our last expansion
Also, bad news, Isotropic is going down.
I remember that April Fool's joke except that it actually wasn't a joke.
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Is it April? Didn't we already have our last expansion
No. No.
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Looking at the existing basic card types, I see one combination that hasn't been tried yet: Duration-Attack. What would a Duration-Attack look like? The first idea that comes to my mind is a cost increaser - an anti-Bridge for your opponents if you will. That or something like "silver produces one less" or maybe even "when you play an action, discard a card".
In terms of unexplored areas, Guilds added "flexible coins". The next logical step is "flexible cards" - one time use cards you obtain through whatever means that don't go into your deck but are set aside to be used at your choice. I definitely think there will be non-supply cards based on the announced set size, so something like a special card or cards that give you these flexible cards is plausible. Or maybe cards that get aside on buy to be used whenever, but after the first use go into the deck as normal.
Presumably there will be at least one alt VP card. No ideas there, but I wouldn't mind seeing another vanilla VP-Action card.
The Duration Attack thing is very unlikely, although I'm currently thinking of fixing this concept, which is hard, but maybe possible. As I don't consider this a speculation, it will be in the Fan Card section soon. :)
But the more likely sounds your other guess to me. Timing flexibility. Cards that give you the decision when to trigger (besides when you play it).
I asked Donald about such effects here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5799.msg412184#msg412184). It was about a Dark Ages Outtake that was like "+1 Action, set this aside --- when you play an Action while this is set aside you may put this into play and play the Action again." It seems really promising - but it needed a mat.
Instead of using a mat, there could be neutral "trigger cards" that you put on a card to indicate how often you can still trigger its effect. In this example, instead of using a mat and putting the card back into play, you'd remove the trigger card to indicate that the effect has been used (and that the Action will be cleaned up).
EDIT: Just found a necropolitan Thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=613.0) with exactly the same idea (only without ancillary cards).
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The way to do a Duration Attack is to only have it attack when played. That way you avoid the nonsense LastFootnote was speculating about. For example, I made a fan card called Coastal Raiders that had a Militia discard effect when played, and +$3 on your next turn.
However, every Reaction (and Lighthouse) that deals with Attacks specifically says "When another player *plays* an Attack." So theoretically a Duration Attack that attacks both turns would be possible and logically feasible, but it would be an immense bummer to have to sit through an attack twice because you didn't have your Moat when it was first played, so that's a reason against them.
As for "while in play" Duration Attacks, now that would just be silly.
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I think Duration attacks could work if only the instance they are put into play counts as attacking. I mean, on the second turn, the card is already in play, so you aren't playing it again. Yah, it weakens lighthouse and Moat, but as long as the attack isn't too oppressive, this really shouldn't be an issue.
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I think Duration attacks could work if only the instance they are put into play counts as attacking. I mean, on the second turn, the card is already in play, so you aren't playing it again. Yah, it weakens lighthouse and Moat, but as long as the attack isn't too oppressive, this really shouldn't be an issue.
It doesn't weaken Lighthouse and Moat; it just makes them really confusing.
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Thanks for the thoughts on "duration attacks". I agree that their interaction with reactions could be confusing. That mostly means more rule book text, but probably does weaken the chances of something like that ever happening. In regards to the cost increaser specifically, it could be fixed to prevent broken situations... but the fact Cutpurse started that way and changed on publisher request pretty much completely rules the idea out.
However, there might be other ways to get opponent hand effects without being an attack exactly - kind of like Smugglers, you could get some benefit from opponent turns with in an play card ("while this is in play, gain a coin token when an opponent buys a card") or messes with people in a "neutral" way and thus isn't considered an attack ("while this is on play, whenever one would draw a card, gain an action instead; whenever one would gain an action, draw a card instead"). A reaction-attack (which could be responded to by another reaction to block the attack) might be another way to make the idea work ("when a player gains a card you may discard this. If you do, they gain a curse.)
There could also be "altering effects" on your own hand only ("when this is in play, +1$ for each action card played. I doubt any of these specific cars will happen, bit I would not at all be surprised to see some sort of new "lingering effect" mechanism introduced - either through "use later" cards or cards with effects that aren't completely resolved immediately or some other way I haven't imagined. While durations and con tokens do this to some degree, I feel there is a lot of room left in that space.
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("while this is on play, whenever one would draw a card, gain an action instead; whenever one would gain an action, draw a card instead").
I think if you worded it exactly like that, you could argue that it causes an infinite loop.
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Donald has revealed a new card!
Persuasive Procurer - Action, $5
+$2
In your buy phase this turn, the other players reveal their hands, and you can buy cards from them.
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Donald has revealed a new card!
Persuasive Procurer - Action, $5
+$2
In your buy phase this turn, the other players reveal their hands, and you can buy cards from them.
Band of Nitwits: Action, $5
Play this as if it were any joke card Donald X. has posted in the forums costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play or becomes too confusing.
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Donald has revealed a new card!
Persuasive Procurer - Action, $5
+$2
In your buy phase this turn, the other players reveal their hands, and you can buy cards from them.
Band of Nitwits: Action, $5
Play this as if it were any joke card Donald X. has posted in the forums costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play or becomes too confusing.
Post of the year.
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I think what's in the set is up in the air at this point.
How's that for some groundless speculation.
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As if DXV would be crazy enough to have a hot air balloon card or something. Madness, right?
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I think what's in the set is up in the air at this point.
How's that for some groundless speculation.
OK, here is some more groundless speculation about the upcoming set. Some potential card names:
Chasm
Empyrean
Flying Machine
Bottomless Pit
Erosion
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Groundless Speculation — Action, $5
Name a card. Wait for the next Dominion expansion to be released. If it contains a card by that name, gain a Province.
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Groundless Speculation — Action, $5
Name a card. Wait for the next Dominion expansion to be released. If it contains a card by that name, gain a Province.
Something tells me that you would gain a lot of provinces...and at an acceptable speed for goko :P
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I think what's in the set is up in the air at this point.
How's that for some groundless speculation.
OK, here is some more groundless speculation about the upcoming set. Some potential card names:
Chasm
Empyrean
Flying Machine
Bottomless Pit
Erosion
Darn. I wondered if someone had made that joke already.
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Donald has revealed a new card!
Persuasive Procurer - Action, $5
+$2
In your buy phase this turn, the other players reveal their hands, and you can buy cards from them.
Band of Nitwits: Action, $5
Play this as if it were any joke card Donald X. has posted in the forums costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play or becomes too confusing.
Post of the year.
But what about Stache? :'(
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Donald has revealed a new card!
Persuasive Procurer - Action, $5
+$2
In your buy phase this turn, the other players reveal their hands, and you can buy cards from them.
Band of Nitwits: Action, $5
Play this as if it were any joke card Donald X. has posted in the forums costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play or becomes too confusing.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2013
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But what about Stache? :'(
(http://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/stash.jpg)
It exists already ;)
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That's stash, not stache. Stache is this:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8930421/dominion/stache.png)
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That's stash, not stache. Stache is this:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8930421/dominion/stache.png)
I like the potential for a Pearl Diver-Stache combo.
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We could at least guess the theme. I think it's going to have a restaurant theme. Don't know why, but i feel Dominion really needs that.
On a more serious note, i could imagine "Modern Times" or a "Magical" expansion. Problem is, both have been done by Alchemy and Prosperity to some extend. Mechanic-wise, i could imagine elements that give a staying ability/advantage. At some point i made up "Heroes", unique cards that you could gain if you greened, and that would enable you to do certain things (some once per turn, some triggered by events). The new expansion is said to change a lot, and ongoing abilities would do that. Don't see how to fill a huge set with it, though.
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There could be a 'Carnival' theme with Ringmaster and Lion Tamer and stuff, though that's probably pretty dumb.
I could see a Greek/Roman/Ancient Civ expansion. Or perhaps a Renaissance theme. I really do think that Ancient Civ idea has a ton of potential, with perhaps attack cards with Legionnaire and Ballista/Catapult and Chieftain, and maybe Trireme and Temple and Astrologer and Politician and Diplomat and Philosopher to name a few potential card name ideas.
Themes for that deck could be more attack based, but in a different way, like perhaps little mini skirmishes (that don't hurt you or your opponent), like perhaps there's a 'War' card (like the ol' card game War), where you and your opponent both look at the top card of your deck and whichever card has the higher cost gets a small benefit or something. That would be interesting because that would make cards like Ghost Ship and Bureaucrat as well as junking cards become more/less powerful.
A better Chancellor might be cool, where you can hold on to a few cards when you dump your entire deck into your discard, or perhaps a +2 Draw after you do deck discarding.
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I like the potential for a Pearl Diver-Stache combo.
The combo is thematic too:
It combos with Pearl Diver. As you can see in the official Pearl Diver art (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/5/56/Pearl_Diver.jpg), the diver is reaching for a fossilized moustache.
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I have never read the bottom half of Stache before.
I also only read CC's T4 supply-emptying for the first time last week. :-[
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On a more serious note, i could imagine "Modern Times" or a "Magical" expansion. Problem is, both have been done by Alchemy and Prosperity to some extend.
Prosperity was about your kingdom being wealthy, but I think Guilds was more about modernisation with the shift from an agrarian society to an urbanised, specialist workforce. I think the next logical step for your kingdom is when the now wealthy and educated populace starts to demand a say in the political decision-making process.
If the new expansion was called Dominion: Revolutions there is a lot of thematic space for card names: Revolutionary, Guillotine, Barricade, Royalist, Independence Declaration, Constitution, Parliament, Prime Minister, President, Coup D’état...
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- We will see new Duration cards. This is a design space that hasn't been explored that much, since all existing Duration cards leave play the turn after you play them, whereas the Duration mechanic makes it possible for them to be in play longer than that. I expect Durations that you can feed somehow to keep in play turn after turn (If there ever are to be more Durations, a big set is the right place for it, where there can be enough of them to justify including all about Durations in the rules again.)
- We will see a new card costing $1
- We will see anew card with an oversized pile (like Rats). Maybe a small-value victory card.
- There will be a few cards that are similar to some existing fan cards.
First speculation confirmed! How many others will turn out to be true?
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I am hoping there won't be new token types or new mats.
I've been thinking about this, and I think a new mat can actually be cool if the same mat was referenced by multiple cards in the set and hence the cards can interact with each other through the mat. I was thinking something that stores action cards for future use, a natural extension from storing coins for future use.
Below are some cards I thought of that make use of a "Reserves" mat to store actions Cards placed on the mat by one card can be used by another card in the set that also uses the mat. They have no name because I'm not feeling creative today.
...
"This is the 9th addition to the game of Dominion. It has 400 cards, 6 mats, and 60 tokens. There are 30 new Kingdom cards, including the return of Duration cards that do things on future turns, plus Reserve cards that can be saved for the right moment. There are also 20 Event cards that give you something to buy besides cards, including tokens that modify cards."
:o
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The whole "saving for the right moment thing" reminds me slightly of my Loyalty Mat. Knowing Donald X, though, it is basically guaranteed to be vastly better game-wise. Boy, am I hyped now!
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I guess Polk5440 is going to be disappointed.
Personally, I'm stoked!
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In terms of unexplored areas, Guilds added "flexible coins". The next logical step is "flexible cards" - one time use cards you obtain through whatever means that don't go into your deck but are set aside to be used at your choice. I definitely think there will be non-supply cards based on the announced set size, so something like a special card or cards that give you these flexible cards is plausible. Or maybe cards that get aside on buy to be used whenever, but after the first use go into the deck as normal.
Seems like several of us were on the right track in predicting some sort of reserve card.
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There could also be "altering effects" on your own hand only ("when this is in play, +1$ for each action card played. I doubt any of these specific cars will happen, bit I would not at all be surprised to see some sort of new "lingering effect" mechanism introduced - either through "use later" cards or cards with effects that aren't completely resolved immediately or some other way I haven't imagined. While durations and con tokens do this to some degree, I feel there is a lot of room left in that space.
This sounds similar to the new modifying tokens. Tokens seem to be a much better way to do it than my card idea.
My third guess ( some sort of duration/lingering attack) remains a possibility.
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Let's go with what *has* to be in the set.
-Every set has Villages. My guess is there will be at least one Reserve Village.
-Every set has card draw. Again, I'm guessing there will be a Reserve draw card.
-There will probably be a Reaction.
-There will probably be a Treasure. Maybe a Reserve Treasure? Duration Treasure?
-There might be a Victory card. I think Donald X has said that he's kind of run out of ideas for them.
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-There will probably be a Treasure. Maybe a Reserve Treasure? Duration Treasure?
I feel like Duration Treasure has been foreclosed by the wording of Herbalist (cf. how Scheme is worded to cope with Duration Actions); but Donald has outsmarted me before.
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Last expansions's symbol was a compass; I'm pretty sure this expansion's symbol will be a compass.
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There can be a Victory card that gives points for Curses in your deck. Though that's kind of dumb.
Having a Victory card count the number of coin tokens you have at the end of the game and have that is kinda broken, even if you had it so that it counted every 6 tokens rounded down or something. And also, it's a dead card in your hand if there ARE no Coin Tokens. So then it must hand out coin tokens to use in the first place. Hand out 6, and everyone will buy it for the tokens. Hand out less, and the card sucks, which leads to the natural conclusion that you must make the VP Token count threshold lower. Which breaks the game in the other direction. It's an interesting idea I think, but really, it won't work.
VP that does stuff is likely going to be the main way to go from here on out.
There can be a VP card that grants an extra +1 VP per Reserve Card you haven't used. That's not terribly bad, and it forces you to not want to use Reserves, making it somewhat balanced in use I think. Perhaps this card is a Reserve in itself. If so, it would have to be more expensive (maybe $5 or $6) so that you can't just get VP while having it not clog your deck, and have going for pure Reserve VP the way to go every time it appears. It seems a bit delicate, but I think this is kind of a neat idea too.
VP that is worth +2 that when you trash it, you gain an Estate (or 2) plus some other card? It's interesting for 3-piles for sure.
VP that gives Virtual coin could be explored more, I think. Perhaps a card that is Victory/Action that gives you a few Coin Tokens every time you play it, making you somewhat happy if you draw it in your hand? It would need to be Terminal though for sure, so it sometimes sucks.
VP that has a scout effect?
There are tons of ideas for VP, and goodness knows I've just started.
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Last expansions's symbol was a compass; I'm pretty sure this expansion's symbol will be a compass.
How was guilds' symbol a compass?
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I don't think Duration-Attacks or -Treasures wil happen. The space has allready been explored, and always without using the duration type - obviously to avoid the confusion that type combinations would generate. In case you are wondering, i speak of Sea Hag/Pirate Ship/Cutpurse/Embargo and Treasury.
You might get something that works like a Duration-Attack, but it won't have the type. For example it could use tokens.
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Last expansions's symbol was a compass; I'm pretty sure this expansion's symbol will be a compass.
How was guilds' symbol a compass?
There is more than one type of compass.
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Last expansions's symbol was a compass; I'm pretty sure this expansion's symbol will be a compass.
How was guilds' symbol a compass?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass_(drawing_tool)
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Instead of a VP card, we might just get an event card that modifies score, like someone mentioned about making estates worth more.
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I guess Polk5440 is going to be disappointed.
Yeah, I am not too thrilled about the blurb RGG posted. My friends and I are pretty much maxed out on the set up costs for Dominion (we don't often play with the existing cards that use tokens or mats), so it will take a lot to convince me to buy a physical copy of an expansion that relies heavily on these types of mechanics. I am intrigued about the new duration cards, however.
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People actually use the mats? Seriously? I have never seen the need for the mats and even if I used them they don't seem conducive to their purpose. That is, all the seaside mats looks super similar so I can't identify the mat without picking the cards up off it. If one cannot track their set aside cards without mats then maybe their should be a duration card mat? I mean, c'mon...
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People actually use the mats? Seriously? I have never seen the need for the mats and even if I used them they don't seem conducive to their purpose. That is, all the seaside mats looks super similar so I can't identify the mat without picking the cards up off it. If one cannot track their set aside cards without mats then maybe their should be a duration card mat? I mean, c'mon...
Mats are useful. If you accidentally think your set-aside Island cards are in play and discard them, it's not always easy to sort them back out afterward. Even more so with Native Village cards.
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People actually use the mats? Seriously? I have never seen the need for the mats and even if I used them they don't seem conducive to their purpose. That is, all the seaside mats looks super similar so I can't identify the mat without picking the cards up off it. If one cannot track their set aside cards without mats then maybe their should be a duration card mat? I mean, c'mon...
Mats are useful. If you accidentally think your set-aside Island cards are in play and discard them, it's not always easy to sort them back out afterward. Even more so with Native Village cards.
Right, so where's the Prince mat, already?
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People actually use the mats? Seriously? I have never seen the need for the mats and even if I used them they don't seem conducive to their purpose. That is, all the seaside mats looks super similar so I can't identify the mat without picking the cards up off it. If one cannot track their set aside cards without mats then maybe their should be a duration card mat? I mean, c'mon...
Mats are useful. If you accidentally think your set-aside Island cards are in play and discard them, it's not always easy to sort them back out afterward. Even more so with Native Village cards.
Right, so where's the Prince mat, already?
A Prince mat would do more harm than good. I found during playtesting that we had much more trouble remembering to do our Princed actions each turn if they were on a mat; it's better if they stay in your play area with Prince itself acting as a mat. Island could usually work that way too, but Native Village couldn't.
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Native Village cards are face down. I guess you can mistake them for your draw pile if you haven't established a place where you always keep your draw pile, but as long as you can tell the difference between your deck and the Native Village mat, you don't need the actual mat.
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People actually use the mats? Seriously?
Yes.
I have never seen the need for the mats and even if I used them they don't seem conducive to their purpose. That is, all the seaside mats looks super similar so I can't identify the mat without picking the cards up off it.
That is part of the problem with them. It's hard to remember to play everything correctly, esp. if there are multiple mat/token cards in the kingdom. Gamer error increases in the number of set aside areas, piles of face down cards, token types, etc.
If one cannot track their set aside cards without mats then maybe their should be a duration card mat?
The "descend" mechanic works decently well. So they have a designated place on the table. Every time we play (esp. new people), though, someone messes up and shuffles in the duration cards that should have stayed out. If we catch it in a reasonable amount of time, we let people fish out the cards and reshuffle, if possible. But durations are so much fun we tolerate the increased possibility of mistakes.
I mean, c'mon...
Not everyone is the most hard-core board gamer ever.
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I don't think Duration-Attacks or -Treasures wil happen. The space has allready been explored, and always without using the duration type - obviously to avoid the confusion that type combinations would generate. In case you are wondering, i speak of Sea Hag/Pirate Ship/Cutpurse/Embargo and Treasury.
You might get something that works like a Duration-Attack, but it won't have the type. For example it could use tokens.
How does Cutpurse fit in? It was originally a duration cost increaser, but that's not how it plays now.
I also would not call Embargo an attack, but YMMV I guess.
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Cutpurse impacts your opponent's upcoming turn, but no more than any other discard attack. It's definitely not in the same category as attacks that impact their next turn by messing with the top of their deck like Sea Hag, Ghost Ship, Bureaucrat, and Rabble.
Of course, having their full effect against your opponent's next turn is kind of the soonest an Attack can take effect, given that the alternatives involve either messing with their next turn, messing with the quality of their deck, or some combination. So Cutpurse is arguably the least Duration-y an Attack can be.
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I find it criminally offensive that Dominion: Adventures will not have Adventurer.
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I find it criminally offensive that Dominion: Adventures will not have Adventurer.
He adventured ahead of the others.
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I find it criminally offensive that Dominion: Adventures will not have Adventurer.
20 years for Donald?
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We can fix this. We just need Young Adventurer, Farming Adventurer, Bag of Adventurers...
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Last expansions's symbol was a compass; I'm pretty sure this expansion's symbol will be a compass.
How was guilds' symbol a compass?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass_(drawing_tool)
Thanks. I didn't realize the english word for it was compass.
Native Village cards are face down. I guess you can mistake them for your draw pile if you haven't established a place where you always keep your draw pile, but as long as you can tell the difference between your deck and the Native Village mat, you don't need the actual mat.
You could also mistake them for Haven's set-aside cards, but Haven can act as a mat there (it does in my group).
I guess one important difference is that cards on the Island, Pirate Ship and Native Village mats only matter when the respective card is played - it doesn't really matter if you forget about them for a while. Prince, Haven and Horse Traders shouldn't be forgotten though, as they will trigger without you actually doing something - that's why they better stay in your field of sight.
Cutpurse impacts your opponent's upcoming turn, but no more than any other discard attack. It's definitely not in the same category as attacks that impact their next turn by messing with the top of their deck like Sea Hag, Ghost Ship, Bureaucrat, and Rabble.
Cutpurse was born from the idea to make cards more expensive. It's certainly not the same, but it's the closest reasonable thing to that concept, which is why i put it in that list of non-durations implementing duration concepts. Though you are right, what applies to Cutpurse applies to Militia too. Which makes me realize:
(http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150115/f8elmj4n.jpg)
Duration-Militia
+$2
All other players start their next turn with only 3 cards in hand.
Duration-Witch
+2 cards
Until the game ends or it is trashed, each other player has an additional card in his deck which is worth -1VP and has a coin value of 0$.
Duration-Swindler
+$2
All other players trash the top card of their deck. Name a card in the supply that costs the same. Until after the game ends, each player has the card you named.
Edit: Edited to avoid massive edgecasing.
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We can fix this. We just need Young Adventurer, Farming Adventurer, Bag of Adventurers...
Ruined Adventurer, Adventurersmith...
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Adventuring Adventurer, SoothAdventurer, Chapelventurer, Venture Adventurer...
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Maybe there will be a theory homage.
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People actually use the mats? Seriously? I have never seen the need for the mats and even if I used them they don't seem conducive to their purpose. That is, all the seaside mats looks super similar so I can't identify the mat without picking the cards up off it. If one cannot track their set aside cards without mats then maybe their should be a duration card mat? I mean, c'mon...
Really, I think we need a mat to hold all of the mats.
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Adventuring Adventurer, SoothAdventurer, Chapelventurer, Venture Adventurer...
Horn of Ventures, Rats Traders, Overgrown Jack of All Curses...wait, what were we doing again?
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People actually use the mats? Seriously? I have never seen the need for the mats and even if I used them they don't seem conducive to their purpose. That is, all the seaside mats looks super similar so I can't identify the mat without picking the cards up off it. If one cannot track their set aside cards without mats then maybe their should be a duration card mat? I mean, c'mon...
I use the mat (well they are card-sized in the prototype and turned sideways) for Native Village. You really want it, otherwise people get messed up eventually. You for sure do not need a mat for Island, Island itself can be the mat. Pirate Ship, it depends on whether or not you have anything from Guilds. Note that Guilds doesn't include mats. VP tokens, no mat.
Edit: I turn duration cards sideways at the start of the turn. Then, only discard the sideways ones. Or you can do it vice-versa, start with them sideways.
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Adventuring Adventurer, SoothAdventurer, Chapelventurer, Venture Adventurer...
JourneyAdventurer.
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I use the mat (well they are card-sized in the prototype and turned sideways) for Native Village. You really want it, otherwise people get messed up eventually. You for sure do not need a mat for Island, Island itself can be the mat. Pirate Ship, it depends on whether or not you have anything from Guilds. Note that Guilds doesn't include mats. VP tokens, no mat.
Edit: I turn duration cards sideways at the start of the turn. Then, only discard the sideways ones. Or you can do it vice-versa, start with them sideways.
The mat for VP tokens is quite useful. At the start of the game, I just give each player four 1VP tokens and then put the 5VP tokens in the center of the table. Players put their 1VP tokens on and off the mat and take 5VP tokens as needed.
We play Duration cards sideways and then "untap" them when they resolve. Don't discard sideways cards. Simple and easy to remember. Lately I've been combining suggestions and playing Duration cards sideways and on a line above my normal cards. Then I move them down and turn them right-side up when they resolve. It saves space.
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Man, if you don't like the mats, don't use the mats.
Have yourself a little mat bonfire.
If you're worried about the increased cost of having mats and tokens in the expansion, I feel for you.
But it's going to be a fractional increase in the cost of something that is a luxury purchase anyway.
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I don't know why people complain about mats, mats are fine, they can't all be the best game mechanic ever.
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We play Duration cards sideways and then "untap" them when they resolve.
There is a group of Wizards (they live on the Coast) who might want to talk with you about that...
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Man, if you don't like the mats, don't use the mats.
Have yourself a little mat bonfire.
If you're worried about the increased cost of having mats and tokens in the expansion, I feel for you.
But it's going to be a fractional increase in the cost of something that is a luxury purchase anyway.
MSRP is the same as other expansions
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Man, if you don't like the mats, don't use the mats.
Have yourself a little mat bonfire.
If you're worried about the increased cost of having mats and tokens in the expansion, I feel for you.
But it's going to be a fractional increase in the cost of something that is a luxury purchase anyway.
MSRP is the same as other expansions
Well, it's the same $44.95 as Intrigue, Prosperity, Seaside and Dark Ages.
Which all either have 500 cards or have 300 cards plus mats/tokens.
Hinterlands is $5 cheaper, with the same number of cards as Seaside & Prosperity, but no mats/tokens.
So, we can't really pretend that the mats/tokens have zero impact on the cost of the expansion.
But given that Adventures has 400 cards and mats/tokens, I think a MSRP of $44.95 makes it a relative bargain.
Especially when you factor in that it has sixty tokens, which is about the number of tokens in Seaside & Prosperity combined.
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We play Duration cards sideways and then "untap" them when they resolve.
There is a group of Wizards (they live on the Coast) who might want to talk with you about that...
Richard Garfield, who playtested Seaside, preferred playing durations tapped, then untapping them on the next turn.
It's popular to believe that the TCG patent including tapping caused the addition of tapping as something protected, rather than limiting what was protected to things that included tapping. It's moot now that the patent has expired though (it's dated 1993 and they last 20 years, in the US anyway).
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We play Duration cards sideways and then "untap" them when they resolve.
There is a group of Wizards (they live on the Coast) who might want to talk with you about that...
Richard Garfield, who playtested Seaside, preferred playing durations tapped, then untapping them on the next turn.
It's popular to believe that the TCG patent including tapping caused the addition of tapping as something protected, rather than limiting what was protected to things that included tapping. It's moot now that the patent has expired though (it's dated 1993 and they last 20 years, in the US anyway).
If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, there was no legal reason not to use tapping as the mechanic for Durations.
So, why did you ultimately decide on the "different row" mechanic?
Was this actually the preferred mechanic in playtesting or was it just the easiest to explain in the rulebook?
Or were you trying to avoid similarities with Magic for other reasons unrelated to patents?
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If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, there was no legal reason not to use tapping as the mechanic for Durations.
So, why did you ultimately decide on the "different row" mechanic?
Was this actually the preferred mechanic in playtesting or was it just the easiest to explain in the rulebook?
Or were you trying to avoid similarities with Magic for other reasons unrelated to patents?
Well, the lack of a legal reason doesn't mean you want to annoy people who can annoy you back. And the patent hadn't expired yet when Seaside came out. Also I didn't get to write that rulebook (except the intro and FAQ).
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I don't know why people complain about mats, mats are fine, they can't all be the best game mechanic ever.
Damn it I did not even see that one coming.
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But given that Adventures has 400 cards and mats/tokens, I think a MSRP of $44.95 makes it a relative bargain.
You never know, the mats could just be napkins, and the tokens could just be spitballs. Those seem like cost-effective materials.
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If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, there was no legal reason not to use tapping as the mechanic for Durations.
So, why did you ultimately decide on the "different row" mechanic?
Was this actually the preferred mechanic in playtesting or was it just the easiest to explain in the rulebook?
Or were you trying to avoid similarities with Magic for other reasons unrelated to patents?
Well, the lack of a legal reason doesn't mean you want to annoy people who can annoy you back. And the patent hadn't expired yet when Seaside came out. Also I didn't get to write that rulebook (except the intro and FAQ).
Don't unnecessarily annoy WotC. Good advice.
But given that Adventures has 400 cards and mats/tokens, I think a MSRP of $44.95 makes it a relative bargain.
You never know, the mats could just be napkins, and the tokens could just be spitballs. Those seem like cost-effective materials.
Ah, but whose spit?
Some people would pay a lot of money for certain people's spit.
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If you're worried about the increased cost of having mats and tokens in the expansion, I feel for you.
But it's going to be a fractional increase in the cost of something that is a luxury purchase anyway.
Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to monetary cost. I don't think anyone was. Having nice components is certainly worth a few extra dollars.
It's about the setup time while playing the game with all these extra pieces, fiddling time of messing around with tokens, and added confusion and increased error on the part of players. I play with people who play Dominion maybe a few times a year; they do not want to be spending half the night fiddling with things and making mistakes. And neither do I want to be on high alert all the time monitoring others' play, handing out the appropriate tokens, making sure people don't draw from their face down NV mat, etc. I want to be socializing, too.
So when I look at buying a physical copy of a game (or an expansion) it matters a lot if I will want to play it with people who don't play very often.
Richard Garfield, who playtested Seaside, preferred playing durations tapped, then untapping them on the next turn.
I really like this idea. I am going to try it next time.
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Well, Donald has always said that each new expansion is, by its very nature, going to be more complex than the last.
So tokens or not, if your friends struggle to follow the rules, any expansion beyond Hinterlands is going to be problematic.
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I'd like to speculate that either the Reserve or Event cards will be colored black, with white text.
I'd also like to speculate that one of the Reserves will be a Moat-like thing that can block Attacks on a whim.
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We play Duration cards sideways and then "untap" them when they resolve.
There is a group of Wizards (they live on the Coast) who might want to talk with you about that...
Richard Garfield, who playtested Seaside, preferred playing durations tapped, then untapping them on the next turn.
It's popular to believe that the TCG patent including tapping caused the addition of tapping as something protected, rather than limiting what was protected to things that included tapping. It's moot now that the patent has expired though (it's dated 1993 and they last 20 years, in the US anyway).
Apparently my joke-fu was not strong when writing that post.
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We will see new Duration cards. This is a design space that hasn't been explored that much, since all existing Duration cards leave play the turn after you play them, whereas the Duration mechanic makes it possible for them to be in play longer than that. I expect Durations that you can feed somehow to keep in play turn after turn (If there ever are to be more Durations, a big set is the right place for it, where there can be enough of them to justify including all about Durations in the rules again.) [/li][/list]
So finally Hireling, a Duration that isn't discarded the very next turn. It's the other extreme, never being discarded, so I'm still waiting the middle ground with something you can keep in play for some time.
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We will see new Duration cards. This is a design space that hasn't been explored that much, since all existing Duration cards leave play the turn after you play them, whereas the Duration mechanic makes it possible for them to be in play longer than that. I expect Durations that you can feed somehow to keep in play turn after turn (If there ever are to be more Durations, a big set is the right place for it, where there can be enough of them to justify including all about Durations in the rules again.) [/li][/list]
So finally Hireling, a Duration that isn't discarded the very next turn. It's the other extreme, never being discarded, so I'm still waiting the middle ground with something you can keep in play for some time.
Reserve cards kinda fill that need.
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So finally Hireling, a Duration that isn't discarded the very next turn. It's the other extreme, never being discarded, so I'm still waiting the middle ground with something you can keep in play for some time.
Treasury
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So finally Hireling, a Duration that isn't discarded the very next turn. It's the other extreme, never being discarded, so I'm still waiting the middle ground with something you can keep in play for some time.
Treasury
A Duration Treasury that got discarded when you bought a Victory card would be a lot stronger, methinks.
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A Duration Treasury that got discarded when you bought a Victory card would be a lot stronger, methinks.
I guess you are picturing getting the +1 Card and +1 Action every turn? Treasury gives you +$1 every turn for a while.
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A Duration Treasury that got discarded when you bought a Victory card would be a lot stronger, methinks.
I guess you are picturing getting the +1 Card and +1 Action every turn? Treasury gives you +$1 every turn for a while.
Not at all.
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.
This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).
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+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.
This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).
This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.
Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.
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+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.
This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).
This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.
Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.
At the start of each turn until you buy a Victory card?
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+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.
This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).
This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.
Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.
At the start of each turn until you buy a Victory card?
It's still pretty much the same effect as Treasury. It's not nearly as much of a new card as it is a possible re-wording of treasury that would change certain interactions. It would be slightly stronger, not a lot stronger.
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+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.
This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).
This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.
Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.
At the start of each turn until you buy a Victory card?
Add "while this is in play".
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+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
When you buy a Victory card, discard this from play.
This would no longer be countered by handsize attacks (particularly Minion).
This doesn't work like you think it does (discarding it from play doesn't stop the effect), but that's okay.
Has there already been a card that does something every turn for a while? Yes.
At the start of each turn until you buy a Victory card?
Add "while this is in play".
Then it will just be discarded the turn you play it since no on-play effect is keeping it out.
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If you wanted to remake Treasury as a Duration, here's what i'd do:
Treasury, $4, Treasure - Duration
Worth 1$ each turn this is in play.
(Only discard this from play at the end of your turn if you bought a Victory card).
I don't know Donald's opinion on this, but given the name and how similarly it behaves, i am pretty sure this (a Copper that produces $1 every turn) is the basic concept of Treasury anyhow (at least i was sure enough to state it whenever the topic of Duration-Treasures appeared). But hey, i was also sure Altar was a pun on alter, and i've been dead wrong with that one.
Edit: I don't actually think Treasury should be redone.
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+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
At the end of your turn, if you did not buy any cards this turn, you may discard this.
EDIT: This is not supposed to be Treasury.
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If you wanted to remake Treasury, here's what i'd do:
Treasury, $4, Treasure - Duration
Worth 1$ each turn this is in play.
(Only discard this from play at the end of your turn if you bought a Victory card).
I don't know Donald's opinion on this, but given the name and how similarly it behaves, i am pretty sure this is the basic concept of Treasury anyhow (at least i was sure enough to state it whenever the topic of Duration-Treasures appeared). But hey, i was also sure Altar was a pun on alter, and i've been dead wrong with that one.
This seems quite overpowered. I mean, it's better than Treasury in almost every way, plus it costs $4 instead of $5. The only way in which Treasury is strong is that the turn you play this, you get 1 less card.
Also, the wording is very awkward. First off, saying that it is "worth $1 each turn", while not too hard to figure out what the intent is, doesn't really work in Dominion rules. It doesn't matter what a Treasure is worth unless you play that Treasure. It needs to give you $1 to spend each turn. And then it needs to specify when you get that (at the start of your turn, at the start of your buy phase, etc). Because of Black Market and Storyteller. And then the discard condition is wonky. A parenthetical phrase is usually a reminder or an additional piece of information about something you need to do; not the main instruction of how the card should be discarded. There's no reason for it to be a Duration at all if it's just going to state on it that it doesn't get discarded as normal.
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+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
At the end of your turn, if you did not buy any cards this turn, you may discard this.
EDIT: This is not supposed to be Treasury.
What is it supposed to be? A super-strong Treasury variant? This seems like it would be interesting, but probably needs to be in the bad card ideas thread... I mean, once you've discarded it, you need to remember to track that it was played. It would lead to an interesting mechanic of trying to decide how many times to play it and not buy anything to discard it before you just start buying every turn.
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+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
At the start of each turn for the rest of the game, +$1.
(This stays in play)
-------------------------------------------
At the end of your turn, if you did not buy any cards this turn, you may discard this.
EDIT: This is not supposed to be Treasury.
What is it supposed to be? A super-strong Treasury variant? This seems like it would be interesting, but probably needs to be in the bad card ideas thread... I mean, once you've discarded it, you need to remember to track that it was played. It would lead to an interesting mechanic of trying to decide how many times to play it and not buy anything to discard it before you just start buying every turn.
Yeah I guess it's a bad ideas type card, but this is where I got the idea from. I feel like something like this would be fairly interesting if you can make it work tracking-wise.
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If you wanted to remake Treasury, here's what i'd do:
Treasury, $4, Treasure - Duration
Worth 1$ each turn this is in play.
(Only discard this from play at the end of your turn if you bought a Victory card).
I don't know Donald's opinion on this, but given the name and how similarly it behaves, i am pretty sure this is the basic concept of Treasury anyhow (at least i was sure enough to state it whenever the topic of Duration-Treasures appeared). But hey, i was also sure Altar was a pun on alter, and i've been dead wrong with that one.
This seems quite overpowered. I mean, it's better than Treasury in almost every way, plus it costs $4 instead of $5. The only way in which Treasury is strong is that the turn you play this, you get 1 less card.
Also, the wording is very awkward. First off, saying that it is "worth $1 each turn", while not too hard to figure out what the intent is, doesn't really work in Dominion rules. It doesn't matter what a Treasure is worth unless you play that Treasure. It needs to give you $1 to spend each turn. And then it needs to specify when you get that (at the start of your turn, at the start of your buy phase, etc). Because of Black Market and Storyteller. And then the discard condition is wonky. A parenthetical phrase is usually a reminder or an additional piece of information about something you need to do; not the main instruction of how the card should be discarded. There's no reason for it to be a Duration at all if it's just going to state on it that it doesn't get discarded as normal.
Meh. Things work in Dominion rules if you say they do. Duration-Attacks were out of the question, suddenly they are there. There wasn't "paying" coins in your action phase, suddenly there is. I have to dig out the old thread where i suggested Swamp Hag and post the reactions when i have some time. Edit: Obviously i never posted the basic concept here, just the second version that used Embargo Tokens to avoid rules issues.
Also, how is it stronger than Treasury? Because it isn't vulnerable to attacks, maybe? I admit the price was an afterthought (because it doesn't draw cards), but i don't see how a replacement has to deal with "strictly better", at all. And by the way, i definitely think real Treasury is the better designed card, so i'm not really intending to find a replacement. I guess i kind of said that, though. Oops.
I'm mostly curious whether Donald would have done Treasury differently if he had known he would do the things with Durations he is doing today. Because i feel the old Seaside cards managed to do a lot of interesting stuff while still being incredibly simple. Treasury has been a specifically good excample of this.
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For Treasury to be a Duration card, it would have to say this:
Treasury: Action - Duration, $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the start of each of your turns until you buy a Victory card: +$1.
None of this "Discard this from play" shenanigans. Removing Duration cards from play does not stop them from doing their thing. They do things until they're done doing things, and then they get discarded at the end of that turn.
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If you wanted to remake Treasury, here's what i'd do:
Treasury, $4, Treasure - Duration
Worth 1$ each turn this is in play.
(Only discard this from play at the end of your turn if you bought a Victory card).
I don't know Donald's opinion on this, but given the name and how similarly it behaves, i am pretty sure this is the basic concept of Treasury anyhow (at least i was sure enough to state it whenever the topic of Duration-Treasures appeared). But hey, i was also sure Altar was a pun on alter, and i've been dead wrong with that one.
This seems quite overpowered. I mean, it's better than Treasury in almost every way, plus it costs $4 instead of $5. The only way in which Treasury is strong is that the turn you play this, you get 1 less card.
Also, the wording is very awkward. First off, saying that it is "worth $1 each turn", while not too hard to figure out what the intent is, doesn't really work in Dominion rules. It doesn't matter what a Treasure is worth unless you play that Treasure. It needs to give you $1 to spend each turn. And then it needs to specify when you get that (at the start of your turn, at the start of your buy phase, etc). Because of Black Market and Storyteller. And then the discard condition is wonky. A parenthetical phrase is usually a reminder or an additional piece of information about something you need to do; not the main instruction of how the card should be discarded. There's no reason for it to be a Duration at all if it's just going to state on it that it doesn't get discarded as normal.
Also, how is it stronger than Treasury? Because it isn't vulnerable to attacks, maybe? I admit the price was an afterthought (because it doesn't draw cards), but i don't see how a replacement has to deal with "strictly better", at all. And by the way, i definitely think real Treasury is the better designed card, so i'm not really intending to find a replacement. I guess i kind of said that, though. Oops.
Mostly because it's a treasure instead of an action. That means it can't be drawn dead. Sure it also means that you can't use TR/KC, but as a general rule, treasure is stronger than non-terminal money. And because it isn't vulnerable to attacks. Of course this especially applies to Minion, but any discarding attack is harsher with Treasuries in hand. And if you have other reaction cards in your deck, Treasury being in your hand is bad when any attacks are played.
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For Treasury to be a Duration card, it would have to say this:
Treasury: Action - Duration, $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Now and at the start of each of your turns until you buy a Victory card: +$1.
None of this "Discard this from play" shenanigans. Removing Duration cards from play does not stop them from doing their thing. They do things until they're done doing things, and then they get discarded at the end of that turn.
Yes. Clean, simple, actually uses the rules of duration cards.
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I'm mostly curious whether Donald would have done Treasury differently if he had known he would do the things with Durations he is doing today. Because i feel the old Seaside cards managed to do a lot of interesting stuff while still being incredibly simple. Treasury has been a specifically good excample of this.
For sure I would do some things differently in the earlier expansions; there is a long post about that in the archive. You get better as you go along.
For Seaside I was still interacting with Valerie and Dale. Valerie in particular did not like Duration cards. So the push was to limit how many there were, not come up with more things for them to do. In fact Haven was out of the set for a while, and made it back in very late when it turned out there was room for a 26th card (and that was a fine card that had been tested; Valerie had felt it was too similar to Caravan).
There was an attack that hit other players' turns (Tax Collector, made cards cost $1 more), that left (well turned into Cutpurse) because it would have left play at a different time from other Duration cards, (end of the prev. player's turn) and Valerie didn't like that. Late in the going I realized I could save Lighthouse by having it produce resources on your next turn, and of course that same solution could have been used for attacks; but Tax Collector had already turned into Cutpurse and again there was anti-demand for new Duration cards.
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I'm mostly curious whether Donald would have done Treasury differently if he had known he would do the things with Durations he is doing today. Because i feel the old Seaside cards managed to do a lot of interesting stuff while still being incredibly simple. Treasury has been a specifically good excample of this.
For Seaside I was still interacting with Valerie and Dale. Valerie in particular did not like Duration cards. So the push was to limit how many there were, not come up with more things for them to do. In fact Haven was out of the set for a while, and made it back in very late when it turned out there was room for a 26th card (and that was a fine card that had been tested; Valerie had felt it was too similar to Caravan).
Wow, that's a very interesting insight. I kind of always assumed you intentionally did Treasury, Ghost Ship etc. this way to make them work without the duration mechanic. The fact that external forces were the main cause makes me see the return of Durations in a whole new light. Thanks :)
For what it's worth, Haven is my favourite Seaside-Duration. I love how it is small, but helps setting up more relevant pieces.
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Late in the going I realized I could save Lighthouse by having it produce resources on your next turn, and of course that same solution could have been used for attacks; but Tax Collector had already turned into Cutpurse and again there was anti-demand for new Duration cards.
I know there's been discussion before as to why Duration-Attacks wouldn't work. But is this why there weren't any in Seaside? I always assumed Reactions to Attacks had been the culprit.
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Late in the going I realized I could save Lighthouse by having it produce resources on your next turn, and of course that same solution could have been used for attacks; but Tax Collector had already turned into Cutpurse and again there was anti-demand for new Duration cards.
I know there's been discussion before as to why Duration-Attacks wouldn't work. But is this why there weren't any in Seaside? I always assumed Reactions to Attacks had been the culprit.
I don't really have more story here. There was one Duration-Attack, it changed for the reason I said. There was a push against new Duration cards so I didn't make new Duration-Attacks. I don't remember Moat coming up as a complaint there and searching old emails is beyond the scope for me. When I revisited Durations, I did Attacks, look at that. Swamp Hag was one of the first cards into the set.
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Cool. No complaints here. :)