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[yuma]

Correctomundo ! Though I do not care for the implications of that "automatically". I have nothing against massclaims, some of my best friends are massclaims ! And I'm not disagreeing with you just because it's you either.

I didn't mean to necessarily imply anything negative. I do think you have a bias toward not claiming in general whereas I have a bias toward. I do think if you thought it was a good idea, would quickly agree to mass claim. But I think you have a higher tolerance level for what you deem acceptable to claim than myself and others in general. That isn't a bad thing. Just the way it is.

In fact I disagree with pretty much every single point you raised here.
- Yes, day 1 was long. That's not a bad thing. Remember GOP Mafia ? Rethorical of course, you won that game because town wasted their day 1  on a dumb quicklynch (well, not just that obviously but still). Yes, long days make rereads marginally more difficult but they also make them more fruitful. Examples of games with long day 1s : ASoIaF, Dynasty Warriors II : in both cases reread helped pin mafia down (DWII being the most important example here). So I'm a bit sick of everyone complaining about it. Yes, you'll have to work a little. Deal with it.

I am not saying long days are bad. I am saying that this day (and game) has been extremely hard for me to read and get a grasp on. I haven't felt good about any of my reads for any significant amount of time. You should know I am willing to put in the work. I don't think I have ever not put in the work. I am saying that I feel like I need more to work with. Mass claim could provide that. Or it couldn't. But right now I feel completely and totally lost and I don't feel bad about saying as such

- However, theory talk is, while necessary, mostly a bad thing. This is not necessary because a massclaim serves very little purpose here, so let's get past it and go back to finding scum.

- If you're going to massclaim, what are you trying to achieve ? Out scum is the obvious example right ? This being a closed setup, that's not going to happen. If two people claim PRs, you're going to look at that and say "well, that's plausible enough..." and bravo, we've outed PRs to no gain. This, in fact, is exactly what happened with WW and faust. We've potentially outed two town PRs to very little avail.

See the above post. And I agree that outing PRs for the sake of outing PRs isn't really ideal. But that isn't what I am trying to do. I feel like we have already started down the mass claim road and stating that perhaps we should finish it. In my experience half-mass claims are far and away worse than full-mass claims. This is why people shouldn't claim for a mass claim until most/all people agree to participate. Note: I am not saying faust shouldn't have claimed here. He had a result and it was right to put it out there. But now we have two claimed PRs. They are out. Mafia know about them. If they are town they are going to die eventually. If we out more PRs I don't think that hurts town very much as mafia generally only has one night kill per night. There is already a high probability of losing PRs tonight, so exposing more PRs this way I don't think does much harm while the potential for information is relatively good.

- If any PR had any information that could help resolve the WW/faust thing, they would probably have claimed. Massclaim is not going to make that any clearer.

I agree. But that isn't my purpose in thinking of mass claiming.

[yuma]

And I still want to vote: teproc but I will admit confirmation (or the opposite of whatever that is) may be getting in the way.

[faust]

What are you hoping to achieve with a mass claim?

Not sure. Depends on what we learn.

So I guess what I hope to gain is some sort of knowledge that will allow us to make a better informed decision on who to lynch today.

If there is a surplus of PRs claiming then I would lean toward lynching between WW/faust.

If there isn't a surplus of PRs claiming then I would lean toward not lynching them and lynching elsewhere (probably VT pool, but can't be sure)

It would also help me learn whether or not I want to shoot tonight, to an extent.

I think there is also potential for more coordination in determining whether the PR claims are true or not. There is the NK to consider and we would need to do that (and potential for other blocking or manipulative roles) but there may be ways to get around or through that. I don't know what they are as I don't know the resources we have.

Eh. That's not good enough. Outing protective roles here is very bad.

[Teproc]

That comment with regards to doing the work was not adressed to you (though it being in a response to you admittedly made it seem that way).

Here are the points you laid in favor of massclaiming :
- helping determine if we should lynch faust/WW. I do not believe that will help. This being a closed setup means it's very hard to accurately speculate on the proportion of PRs, and drawing too many conclusions of that is not a good thing. Also, the more we lynch based on setup/claiming, the less informative lynches are, I feel.

- helping determine if you should shoot. I still think it's a pretty clear cut case of "shouldn't", and the PRs that would change that are not PRs I'd like to see outed (Doctor being the main example I'm guessing). It's mostly, as EgorK put it, a question of how much variance you want in the game.

- helping coordination. I trust that PRs who see a way in which their claiming could be coordinated with PRs who are already out there are weighing the possibility of doing so themselves. Theoretically we could have (again going for the most basic example here) a Doctor and a Cop out there and they could be an unstoppable scumhunting machine, but the likelihood of that is pretty low. Not just because that particular example would either be horrible balance, but because we don't have a clue what scum has and thus cannot predict what plans they could disrupt.

Massclaiming is good when it produces ICs or outs scum. A massclaim here would do neither of those things.

[2.71828.....]

yeah, no mass claim.  Yuma has made a great amount of sense (except for not shooting) but this is just not happening

[yuma]

Alright. I disagree but won't push it.

[Ampharos]

WW "breadcrumbed" this day 1 thing so super vaguely so he could use it for scenarios like this.  I was initially read faust as playing different, thinking it was scum, but I think I was reading him as what he claims.  WW's claim is too perfect for this situation, and this breadcrumb is too watery and looks like scum bradcrumbing just in case. 

I basically said the exact same thing I did previously.  You all are losing track of the situation, letting yourselves be talked out of a lynch here.  Why do you think we're having such a hard time here with so many people saying "idk whats going on so unvote"?  Its because scum is either pushing this way of thought or is seeing enough of it in town to just let us do what we did day 1: change our minds and lynch someone random.  Man up, quit ignoring this situation, and make a stand that isnt uber wishy washy like most of us have been all game. 

Quit just waffling around and dont let yourslef be talked out of thigns.  You feel somethings off? Push it for a lycnh.  We go down this path much longer, and you can kiss the game goodbye.

[Witherweaver]

Does anyone actually not believe I targeted Hydrad?  Because that's absurd.

Yes, I don't believe that.

Why would you not believe it?

Because I have an investigative result that says otherwise.

But ... why would I breadcrumb Hydrad immediately into Day 2?  You honestly think I predicted this situation?

[Witherweaver]

WW "breadcrumbed" this day 1 thing so super vaguely so he could use it for scenarios like this.  I was initially read faust as playing different, thinking it was scum, but I think I was reading him as what he claims.  WW's claim is too perfect for this situation, and this breadcrumb is too watery and looks like scum bradcrumbing just in case. 

When has that ever ever happened? I appreciate that you think I have this amazing foresight to predict Faust was going to claim something against me, but I'm really not prescient.

[Witherweaver]

Buddying e is scum e.

Vote: e

[yuma]

I could also go for a ampharos lynch, despite previous town read. I feel like I have lots of options but none of them good.... Egork, teproc, ampharos, RR, iguana. All lunches I could go for...

But ww.... Not a 2.7 lynch.

[Witherweaver]

I could also go for a ampharos lynch, despite previous town read. I feel like I have lots of options but none of them good.... Egork, teproc, ampharos, RR, iguana. All lunches I could go for...

But ww.... Not a 2.7 lynch.

Really, I think scum isn't going to push my lynch.  Defending me is actually more likely.  That also points towards e, and you.  I guess maybe Teproc too.

I don't see why making sense is such a town thing.  Scum likes to make sense.

[2.71828.....]

Buddying e is scum e.

Vote: e

False. 

To be historically accurate, bussing e is scum e.  Death note I bussed Eevee (my partner) very hard.  Village Mafia, well, I didn't really bus that game.  That was just an unfortunate game for us scum.  Then in Hearthstone I bussed Teproc on the "final" lynch.  And yeah, that is all that I have been scum.  Really not a great sample.  Both Village and Death Note were very irregular "normal" games.  Then we just destroyed everyone in Hearthstone.  That was a great game.

But enough of the past and back to this game.  I really like Ampharos sticking to his guns for the WW lynch.  But all of the evidence really makes me want to believe WW.  Those breadcrumbs, his overall play.  I just really think WW is town.  Result be damned.

I am much more wary of faust.  Haddock's last post has me wondering too.  The thing about faust though.  I don't want to lynch a claimed tracker.  I don't know how much I believe his result though.  I like my vote on RR for now, but I could probably easily be persuaded to Haddock

[2.71828.....]

Haddock's last post

should actually be post before last.  2 posts ago

[Haddock]

Haddock's last post

should actually be post before last.  2 posts ago

What's wrong with it?

Yuma, why don't you like the e lynch?

[Witherweaver]

Sure okay.

Vote: Haddock

[yuma]

Right. Haddock. I could go for him to.

[yuma]

Yuma, why don't you like the e lynch?

Well I have a townread on him. A part of that certainly is that I feel like he has made sense this game. I admit that freely. And yes, scum can want to make sense as well... but ultimately scum has to stop making "true" sense at some point. That is often what gets me into trouble toward the end of games. I play a good townie game early and then as the game continues I have to deviate from that to get mislynches through or to justify night actions or intepret or defend something and the "making sense" goes away. So if 2.7 is scum I think it will be easier to tell later than now.

And really I just haven't seen anything scummy from him.

And as I have said before if I am considering keeping two townies alive (one has to die) I am going to choose the one that doesn't agree with me because I think i am right. That might be a fallacy, but I play this game confidently (when I am able to do so) and it generally works out. If all the players plus 2.7 are town (not very likely, but go with it for the sake of the argument) I am going to want to keep 2.7 alive the most because we together (I think) are more likely to get the mafia than myself and any other of you. Now, we could still get it wrong, but if I have more confidence in my reads than anyone else (which I should) then a person who has similar reads I shoudl want to keep around to push those reads through...

so yeah, I don't want to lynch 2.7. Haven't seen a reason to do so.

[2.71828.....]

More about faust (AKA "why yuma should have said he was shooting last night even if he didn't shoot")

I think it is extremely likely that scum would have used redirection power against you.  You can be very dangerous for scum, especially if you have a PR.  By rerouting whatever ability that you may or may not have they are sure to negate any influence you have.

Now, had yuma come out and stated he was using his power, then scum would have really wanted to redirect him.  But yuma was fairly clear that he would not use his power with only the slightest ambiguity at the end, but nothing that I think scum would take too seriously.  Therefore they could go out and use redirection elsewhere.  You know, like on faust.

The other likely option *gasp* is that faust is scum.  I mean, if this is the case then yeah, bold fake claim.  But WW's story just rings really true to me.  And weakened PRs seem like a thing.  I mean, active tree-stump was a role.  I could totally see town having more PRs, but weakened.  Regular tracker is obviously clearly not ruled out, but this is an ashersky game and he is very creative with roles.  Look at Yuma's power.  It is a modified vigilante to make it weaker than a regular vigilante.

"Ninja Tracker" is actually an enhanced role rather than a weakened role.  Sure, treestump was enhanced, but seriously.  Its a treestump.  It has to be enhanced to be made a real role right from the start in a serious game.  I mean, flavor totally fits ninja tracker, but does the role fit what we have seen in this game so far?  Not really.

That being said, if faust is scum, it is working.  I am not voting him today.  We will see what we get from him tonight. 

[EgorK]

Had not yet time to reread, but:

- mass claim not seems like a good option. Benefit of probably get better feel if both faust and WW telling truth is not enough to out town PRs

- after some though I think I believe WW claim a bit more.

So Vote: faust

[Witherweaver]

I think Bus Driving is more likely than redirection.  If I'm redirecting as scum here I'm definitely putting Yuma onto a Town I want dead.

Bus Driving, though, no super strong reason to kill Yuma.  Plus they can protect one of the team (and get an extra town kill) through the Bus Drive.

[Haddock]

This is the current vote count, I think:

2.7 (1): Haddock.
Ampharos (1): RR
EgorK (1): Teproc
faust (2): iguana, egor
Haddock (1): WW
RR (1): e
Teproc (1): yuma
WW (2): Ampharos, faust

not voting: Hydrad

That's not gospel by any means, but I think it's right.

Pretty much sums up the current mood, doesn't it.  Scum, whether by means of a redirect or a fakeclaim, have really messed us up here.

Well noone seems to like an e vote here so my vote may as well be elsewhere. 

vote: egor seems a good alternative.  I no longer have any idea which (if either) of faust/WW is lying. 

[Roadrunner7671]

E is still voting for me?

[Teproc]

Hydrad is actually voting WW (#1973), which makes him the leading wagon at 3 votes.

Speaking of which, let's reread Hydrad.

[Haddock]

Sorry, yep.

Ampharos (1): RR
EgorK (2): Teproc, Haddock
faust (2): iguana, egor
Haddock (1): WW
RR (1): e
Teproc (1): yuma
WW (3):Ampharos, faust, hydrad