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[Robz888]

Btw Robz, as I think it's quite possible you are town, I think you should absolutely at least share all your reads before you die. It's very unfortunate we are in this situation, but I just see no reasonable way out. I dont think it's morgrim at least. Actually..
Vote: ashersky, bring chaos to the world. I think ashersky is more likely than robz to be scum, but I'm still not sure if Robz is just the better lynch for us.

And I do realize I'm taking a pretty big role here by even suggesting another wagon, but I got to get this off my mind.

The thing is that I don't want to over-share my reads with you, because I don't want them guiding you too much from beyond the grave. I don't want you to say "Robz flipped town, and he suspected GeoLib the least, so GeoLib is confirmed town." Like, i don't want to bear that responsibility. My reads are only so good.

Just keep in mind mainly what I've said about Morgrim and O. Ashersky (who is not a bad lynch, I don't think) and Cuzz have shown an eagerness to quick wagon that actually is quite scummy, but perhaps they don't know better. Then you have people who I think are town by could very well be scum who just got lucky when the rest of the town went off on each other.

[ashersky]

Eevee claims FOS is ineffective, and people should be voting. Eevee then claims that his style is always to be super careful and not throw his vote in early. Eevee then says such cautious behavior will stop now, and backs it up by not voting in that post, and putting a FOS on Robz without hammering. Eevee says his gut is that Robz is town, but has to go against his gut, but again, does nothing.

Next Eevee warns against a new target in the name of town unity, and follows this up by breaking his indecisiveness and finally voting... for ashersky. Who is "more likely than robz to be scum," despite having said nothing of the sort in either of the two novels he posted yesterday.

Can someone help me out with the count of how many times he has contradicted himself here? I've lost track. Eevee's long analysis has been helpful, but honestly, to me all of this looks truly terrible for Eevee. He seems too smart to not realize that he's being egregiously inconsistent, so maybe it's on purpose. Does he want us to pull the suspicion onto him to protect Robz? Of course he said he would be voting Robz if it wouldn't be the hammer, but talk is cheap. I know it's hard enough to find one scum on D1, but I think an Eevee/Robz duo is not out of the question.

Can someone please hammer so we can get some real information before the mafia have chance to screw with us more?

Jorbles and I are the only votes left.  The Eevee could be scum covering for his scumbuddy Robz is plausible, but Robz claimed VT already, which could be a scum play...WIFOS and all that.

Jorbles, anything to add?  Feel its time to hammer?  You've been the most level-headed one, I think, so I'll wait for your response before making that call myself, since, man, quick to wagon (in the opinion of some) is one thing, but quick to hammer is another.

And @ Robz on the "quick to wagon" aspect--I've definitely admitted to first game jitters on that, and have since pulled my vote back and have held it back as I've learned the way the game is played.  I hope that's enough to unscum myself some in your eyes.

[ashersky]

Just keep in mind mainly what I've said about Morgrim and O. Ashersky (who is not a bad lynch, I don't think) and Cuzz have shown an eagerness to quick wagon that actually is quite scummy, but perhaps they don't know better. Then you have people who I think are town by could very well be scum who just got lucky when the rest of the town went off on each other.

The bolded part there <i>could</i> be read as confirming Cuzz's take on Eevee protecting Robz, since now Robz is confirming Eevee's out-of-the-blue move. 

[Robz888]

Just keep in mind mainly what I've said about Morgrim and O. Ashersky (who is not a bad lynch, I don't think) and Cuzz have shown an eagerness to quick wagon that actually is quite scummy, but perhaps they don't know better. Then you have people who I think are town by could very well be scum who just got lucky when the rest of the town went off on each other.

The bolded part there <i>could</i> be read as confirming Cuzz's take on Eevee protecting Robz, since now Robz is confirming Eevee's out-of-the-blue move.

You hear this, Eevee? You've been outed as my scumbuddy.

[Captain_Frisk]

Just keep in mind mainly what I've said about Morgrim and O. Ashersky (who is not a bad lynch, I don't think) and Cuzz have shown an eagerness to quick wagon that actually is quite scummy, but perhaps they don't know better. Then you have people who I think are town by could very well be scum who just got lucky when the rest of the town went off on each other.

The bolded part there <i>could</i> be read as confirming Cuzz's take on Eevee protecting Robz, since now Robz is confirming Eevee's out-of-the-blue move.

You hear this, Eevee? You've been outed as my scumbuddy.

Hehehe - i love that he calls out eevee as a pair - and then calls for someone to hammer you.  There are only 4 people who could do it, and he just wrote one of them off. 

Ok - how about this:  For those of you not voting RobZ - who do you think would be a better candidate today?  I'm especially interested in the 2 non voters (jorbles, ashersky).

[Robz888]

Just keep in mind mainly what I've said about Morgrim and O. Ashersky (who is not a bad lynch, I don't think) and Cuzz have shown an eagerness to quick wagon that actually is quite scummy, but perhaps they don't know better. Then you have people who I think are town by could very well be scum who just got lucky when the rest of the town went off on each other.

The bolded part there <i>could</i> be read as confirming Cuzz's take on Eevee protecting Robz, since now Robz is confirming Eevee's out-of-the-blue move.

You hear this, Eevee? You've been outed as my scumbuddy.

Hehehe - i love that he calls out eevee as a pair - and then calls for someone to hammer you.  There are only 4 people who could do it, and he just wrote one of them off. 

Ok - how about this:  For those of you not voting RobZ - who do you think would be a better candidate today?  I'm especially interested in the 2 non voters (jorbles, ashersky).

I'm tempted to say Ashersky, but in reality, still Morgrim, I think. Ashersky's scummy behavior really could just be newbie eagerness. It probably is.

[ashersky]

Hehehe - i love that he calls out eevee as a pair - and then calls for someone to hammer you.  There are only 4 people who could do it, and he just wrote one of them off. 

Ok - how about this:  For those of you not voting RobZ - who do you think would be a better candidate today?  I'm especially interested in the 2 non voters (jorbles, ashersky).

Cuzz actually called the pair, for which I was adding possible evidence.  I also didn't ask for a hammer, I said I wanted to hear from Jorbles before I would hammer.

O is probably the sleeper candidate for D1 lynch, if not Robz.  How either of them flip would be fairly informative.

Do you see an option other than Robz, who you've already voted for?

[Jorbles]

Ugh, I am super hungover right now and unlikely to provide any interesting new thoughts at the moment, but I have read and caught up. That said, I think Robz and ashersky have both played scummy. I've pointed out before why I think ashersky has been scummy, and my reason for thinking Robz is primarily due to O's analysis before Robz got super cautious. If everyone is done analyzing I will hammer, but I say we strongly consider ashersky for his scumminess in d2.

[Eevee]

just woke up, nobody hammer before i get a chance to address these questions please!

[Jorbles]

Okey dokey, off to put water in me.

[Eevee]

Okay, here we go!

We haven't heard from Frisk in awhile, I noticed.  Wonder what he's up to.

I'm surprised you chose to call out Frisk. He posted about 10 hours ago, whereas O and Morgrim have both been silent for about 28...

Calling out Frisk actually makes sense to me. He tends to write long, analytical posts, we certainly want his input as much as possible! My guess is he is in multiple games and just doesn't find this as exciting yet, so he is just not putting in as much as effort as he sometimes does (and this is fine I think). I also recall him saying he can't post much on weekends, so we might have to wait a little longer.

I was about to ask Ashersky why he didn't respond to Eevee's vote for him, but I realized that it didn't really seem like Eevee presented a case other than:

Vote: ashersky, bring chaos to the world. I think ashersky is more likely than robz to be scum

Care to explain your vote, Eevee? I know that there's important information in your summary posts, but could you write a post with just the scum-ashersky case please?

Oh yeah, I kind of didn't explain that at all. Well, despite thinking Robz lynch might be tops lynch (am I doing this right?), I'm not exactly convinced he is scum. His defense is actually quite solid (although a bit WIFOMy), scum Robz would indeed most likely avoid being so confrontational. Ashersky explained his eager voting with "first game jitters", but we have three other first timers, and neither of them has really gotten them, at least not to that extent. But, other than the voting behavior, I don't really have anything concrete. As I said, re-reading convinced me of the importance of voting, and it's clearly too early to hammer Robz (given how I for example have this much to say, and judging by the amount of posting while I was sleeping, so have others), I chose to vote for the guy that gave me the scummiest vibe on the re-read. Note: these vibes have been how we/I usually choose our day 1 lynch targets, and they generally have not been very accurate. So, I might just be picking on ashersky's playing style. I also wanted to see how town would react to the possibility of another wagon. For example Robz's supposed scumbuddy would have all the reasons to go "yeah I agree!" and vote for ashersky too, but no one seemed to care really which makes Robz look a bit townier maybe?

I'm not going to dig up the exact quotes, but you mention a couple times in your behemoth posts (primarily, the second one) that a post of mine is "hedgy" or "doesn't end up saying much" (something like that, anyway). I'm trying to explain as many of my thoughts as I can, but I don't think I'm ever going to come down on an issue with the certainty that some people (hint: O) exhibit. As I said, I think that sort of certainty is absurd coming from a townie. I'm sorry if it's annoying or unhelpful, but I'm not going to fake conviction. I don't think this is scummy though because I've still managed to open myself up to post-wagon analysis (something, you point out, that you and Frisk have not done). For example, despite my "hedginess," I'll come out looking pretty scummy if Robz flips scum although I wouldn't give a damn because we'd have lynched scum D1!! Anyway, that's all. Bedtime for me

Yes, I know hedging is not necessarily a scum tell, because townies are actually genuinely unsure. But, you see how covering all the angles ("I think he is scummy, but I might be wrong") really makes it hard for us to analyze after we get new information? This is why voting is good, votes are definite and they always mean something. But I wasn't accusing of hedging you to make you start posting differently, let alone to make you fake convictions.. just noting that "even though he said this, it doesn't really mean much because..". You know, the most important bits from the summary are votes and O's super confidence. Being cautious is easy for scum (they can say "I would be willing to vote for my scumbuddy.. maybe" and then when the time comes, just not do it because they remembered to hedge in their original statement. And I do realize I've been very hedgy with the Robz case, although I have explained my reasons for it. And I would for sure rather lynch robz than nolynch, not even close.


@ashersky
Bringing chaos was a poor choice of words, rather .. stir the pot a bit? Get some reads from the reactions at least? As I said, it's mostly just a gut read that could just come from your playstyle/posting style. And I want to have my vote somewhere, and voting for Robz would end the day which I don't want yet. I think me playing as non confrontational as I had before voting you is not beneficial for me / town.


@Cuzz

Wow! Okay, first of all, if I was scumbuddies with Robz, purposefully pulling suspicion to me to protect Robz would be just the most terrible scum strategy ever! Like really, even the thought is laughable? Like, you are saying I was thinking "Because they already found Robz, got to reveal myself too so maybe I die instead of Robz?", which just makes absolutely no sense.

And yeah, FoS's are less effective than votes, but voting for Robz would have been an anti-town (imo ofc) hammer, so. I explained this above. And because I couldn't vote for Robz (yet at least), but still wanted to have my vote somewhere, I chose someone who gave me sort of a scummy vibe in my re-reading. I have said Robz is not super likely to be scum numerous times, the main benefit of lynching him would be the flip (obviously the possibility of him being scum is awesome, that'd be two birds with one stone). But sort of sucks to lynch someone your gut says is town, especially if he is a nice guy like Robz (shouldn't matter) and a very strong player.


I see some people actually sort of agree with me that ashersky has been giving a scummy vibe. I won't vote for O today, because I don't think mafia would be bold enough to lurk until at L-1 and then come with all guns blazing at Robz like he did. Seems like O trying to make most of VT to me.

(writing this took longer than I expected because of some distractions, will not proofread, sorry guys! Yes I usually proofread lol, I'm just that terrible at grammar.)

[Robz888]

I see some people actually sort of agree with me that ashersky has been giving a scummy vibe. I won't vote for O today, because I don't think mafia would be bold enough to lurk until at L-1 and then come with all guns blazing at Robz like he did. Seems like O trying to make most of VT to me.

But see, we don't know for sure that O would have done this. He claims he was going to do this. I'm sure he's lying; he almost certainly did NOT plan to do this, regardless of his role. Now, whether the comment was more of a jest that anything incriminating is quite possible.

[Eevee]

I see some people actually sort of agree with me that ashersky has been giving a scummy vibe. I won't vote for O today, because I don't think mafia would be bold enough to lurk until at L-1 and then come with all guns blazing at Robz like he did. Seems like O trying to make most of VT to me.

But see, we don't know for sure that O would have done this. He claims he was going to do this. I'm sure he's lying; he almost certainly did NOT plan to do this, regardless of his role. Now, whether the comment was more of a jest that anything incriminating is quite possible.

True. But starting the day with the "robz is scum and i know it" is almost the same, just a little bit milder. You think scum-O would dare to do that just to get you killed?

[Cuzz]

I see some people actually sort of agree with me that ashersky has been giving a scummy vibe. I won't vote for O today, because I don't think mafia would be bold enough to lurk until at L-1 and then come with all guns blazing at Robz like he did. Seems like O trying to make most of VT to me.

But see, we don't know for sure that O would have done this. He claims he was going to do this. I'm sure he's lying; he almost certainly did NOT plan to do this, regardless of his role. Now, whether the comment was more of a jest that anything incriminating is quite possible.

I would agree with this. Even when he said he was going to do that, he gave no condition under which he would have done so. He just seemed to change his mind and stop lurking because we were taking too long to put someone at L-1, which is ridiculous given when this occurred.

[Robz888]

I see some people actually sort of agree with me that ashersky has been giving a scummy vibe. I won't vote for O today, because I don't think mafia would be bold enough to lurk until at L-1 and then come with all guns blazing at Robz like he did. Seems like O trying to make most of VT to me.

But see, we don't know for sure that O would have done this. He claims he was going to do this. I'm sure he's lying; he almost certainly did NOT plan to do this, regardless of his role. Now, whether the comment was more of a jest that anything incriminating is quite possible.

True. But starting the day with the "robz is scum and i know it" is almost the same, just a little bit milder. You think scum-O would dare to do that just to get you killed?

Sure, why not?

[Robz888]

I see some people actually sort of agree with me that ashersky has been giving a scummy vibe. I won't vote for O today, because I don't think mafia would be bold enough to lurk until at L-1 and then come with all guns blazing at Robz like he did. Seems like O trying to make most of VT to me.

But see, we don't know for sure that O would have done this. He claims he was going to do this. I'm sure he's lying; he almost certainly did NOT plan to do this, regardless of his role. Now, whether the comment was more of a jest that anything incriminating is quite possible.

True. But starting the day with the "robz is scum and i know it" is almost the same, just a little bit milder. You think scum-O would dare to do that just to get you killed?

Sure, why not?

Let me clarify, I think it's possible. I haven't disqualified it. I am not, however, willing to say that O is the person I most think is scum. That person is still Morgrim.

[Eevee]

I see some people actually sort of agree with me that ashersky has been giving a scummy vibe. I won't vote for O today, because I don't think mafia would be bold enough to lurk until at L-1 and then come with all guns blazing at Robz like he did. Seems like O trying to make most of VT to me.

But see, we don't know for sure that O would have done this. He claims he was going to do this. I'm sure he's lying; he almost certainly did NOT plan to do this, regardless of his role. Now, whether the comment was more of a jest that anything incriminating is quite possible.

True. But starting the day with the "robz is scum and i know it" is almost the same, just a little bit milder. You think scum-O would dare to do that just to get you killed?

Sure, why not?

Let me clarify, I think it's possible. I haven't disqualified it. I am not, however, willing to say that O is the person I most think is scum. That person is still Morgrim.

Especially in a newbie game, doesn't that just run an incredibly high risk of "okay, lynch robz and then if he flips town lynch O!" happening? Or you could have been a power role. It's just a very risky thing for mafia to do, and I don't really see the need for gambits with our tendency of lynching town day 1.

[Robz888]

I see some people actually sort of agree with me that ashersky has been giving a scummy vibe. I won't vote for O today, because I don't think mafia would be bold enough to lurk until at L-1 and then come with all guns blazing at Robz like he did. Seems like O trying to make most of VT to me.

But see, we don't know for sure that O would have done this. He claims he was going to do this. I'm sure he's lying; he almost certainly did NOT plan to do this, regardless of his role. Now, whether the comment was more of a jest that anything incriminating is quite possible.

True. But starting the day with the "robz is scum and i know it" is almost the same, just a little bit milder. You think scum-O would dare to do that just to get you killed?

Sure, why not?

Let me clarify, I think it's possible. I haven't disqualified it. I am not, however, willing to say that O is the person I most think is scum. That person is still Morgrim.

Especially in a newbie game, doesn't that just run an incredibly high risk of "okay, lynch robz and then if he flips town lynch O!" happening? Or you could have been a power role. It's just a very risky thing for mafia to do, and I don't really see the need for gambits with our tendency of lynching town day 1.

Well, this is all true, which is why I don't want to lynch O. But if Morgrim is mafia, O is highly likely to be his scum partner, that's all.

[Jorbles]

Okay Eevee, I'm suspicious of ashersky too, but why is an ashersky lynch better than a Robz lynch?

For the record I think we're better off lynching Robz. The player who is pushing for it the hardest has a lot more experience playing with Robz and his playstyle than anyone does judging ashersky's. The evidence against ashersky is there, but it's not any stronger a case than the one against Robz. The evidence against Robz is also there, and some of our most experienced players are on board with it. Why is the case against ashersky better?

[Eevee]

Okay Eevee, I'm suspicious of ashersky too, but why is an ashersky lynch better than a Robz lynch?

For the record I think we're better off lynching Robz. The player who is pushing for it the hardest has a lot more experience playing with Robz and his playstyle than anyone does judging ashersky's. The evidence against ashersky is there, but it's not any stronger a case than the one against Robz. The evidence against Robz is also there, and some of our most experienced players are on board with it. Why is the case against ashersky better?

I have not said it is better (tbh, I'm undecided whom I want to lynch more). I have merely said there is a case for ashersky too.

Robz is more of an asset if he is town and lives, but his flip is also more informational. The case against robz is stronger, but so is his defense and explanation for his actions. I think it's very close.

[ashersky]

Okay Eevee, I'm suspicious of ashersky too, but why is an ashersky lynch better than a Robz lynch?

For the record I think we're better off lynching Robz. The player who is pushing for it the hardest has a lot more experience playing with Robz and his playstyle than anyone does judging ashersky's. The evidence against ashersky is there, but it's not any stronger a case than the one against Robz. The evidence against Robz is also there, and some of our most experienced players are on board with it. Why is the case against ashersky better?

The case against me is worse because I'm not scummy, really.  What can I do to convince you of that, Jorbs?  If I hammer Robz now, it looks like I'm trying to shut down talk about me, since that's where we seem to have gone.  If the choice has come down to hammer Robz or fill the wagon on me, well, of course I'm going to go with Robz, because I shouldn't be lynched.

It actually sounds like the choice isn't between Robz and me, so much as between Robz and Morgrim (or at least, it was).  I honestly don't know which one is better strategically for D2.

Also, Jorbles seems to have jumped from voice of reason to pushing on me pretty hard.  I think he is worth a second look on D2, whoever gets lynched today.

[O]

FWIW nobody currently on the wagon is bussing robz if he's scum (90% certain of this- not 90% certain that both robz is scum and this is true).

So Robz flipping scum indeed would be quite informative.

Robz flipping town would also be quite informative but I'll hold off on how because theres WIFOM there and I'd like to avoid hinting what to the scum.

[Eevee]

FWIW nobody currently on the wagon is bussing robz if he's scum (90% certain of this- not 90% certain that both robz is scum and this is true).

So Robz flipping scum indeed would be quite informative.

What makes you this sure?

[O]

FWIW nobody currently on the wagon is bussing robz if he's scum (90% certain of this- not 90% certain that both robz is scum and this is true).

So Robz flipping scum indeed would be quite informative.

What makes you this sure?

Because the wagon was nice and quick and rather confusing. Scum would see it more valuable to try and derail the wagon, which is probably very likely given how the wagon started, then getting towncred for bussing.

Bussing your scumbuddy D1 in a 9 player game is very dangerous and unlikely to work with PRs.

[ashersky]

So it's late where I'm at, and I'm about to go to sleep.  I'm wondering if we should take some action before that happens.  The chatter has slowed down in the last 30 minutes or so...are we winding down?