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[Eevee]

Oh and sober AMA, I'd like to answer to all possible questions, got to at least maximize the chance of not getting lynched for the lack of better options.

[faust]

Go back and look at all the lukewarm defenses of eevee, and I hope there will be enough votes on him by deadline. Sorry I won't be around.

I don't quite understand this. If you find people's defenses of Eevee vague and unsatisfactory, that should make you suspect them, not Eevee. Do you think you've already called the scum team - Eevee, and the two players defending him, AHoppy and Teproc? I don't think that's the case. But I do think there's reason to suspect Teproc and AHoppy, and maybe you should consider moving your vote to one of those two.

[faust]

Eevee, could you remind me again why you are voting TA?

[Eevee]

Eevee, could you remind me again why you are voting TA?

I could as well be not. It's for the lack of stronger scumreads, I generally think is better to have your vote somewhere for reactions, but you can't vote just for reactions, and I haven't seen anything voteworthy since.

[yuma]

I AM trying to get a feel of this game, which is damn hard when all we talk about is theory and we don't have ashersky around making people chase each others tails.

Alright... add this to your case: I think there has been plenty to talk about in the last few days beside theory and plenty of opprotunity provided by other players do "make people chase each other's tails" but you just aren't participating in it and consisntly using the excuse that today has been a bad day1 to avoid playing the game.... This is the second or third time you have made such a statement and I think it is a false one. Yes, this game started out with theory, but I think we have rebounded out of it very nicely.

[AHoppy]

I strongly disagree with ahoppy's defense, which to be kinda boils down to I made a case on eevee, so I'm tunneling him, so he can't be scum.

This was not my case at all.  The case probably hasn't been around long enough to call it tunneling.  Just to me, as I was reading through, it seemed like every post you made after that was "then vote for eevee!" When other people (I believe yuma) have already expressed that they were not pleased with your case.  My "case" as it is is basically faust's case.  I liked his post asking you to go look through games where Eevee is town and give us that data.  So my case is:

TA presents a convincing argument, backing it up with 3 quotes, 2 from other games that appear similar to this game.  His argument, when I first read it shouted "Hey, Eevee looks pretty bad after this"
Faust brings up that Eevee is scum in both of those games, so for all we know, this is also what town!Eevee looks like
The problem with this is you have an attractive argument that does not show that Eevee is not playing his town self.
You have made a rhetorical fallacy and I am not willing to lynch Eevee over it.
This very well could just be an oversight on your part as the researcher, I get that
However, I'm also wary of it because the argument looked so attractive and I would have been willing to lynch Eevee, had faust not alerted me to go back and look at it closer.
It's not enough for me to want to lynch you, more of an FoS.  It is however enough to take Eevee out of the pool of lurkers I'm willing to lynch.

[yuma]

Alright.  I'm caught up.  But nothing really jumps out at me as being super scummy.  I don't really like TA's case on Eevee.  I mean, I see where he is coming from, but it kinda feels like he is tunneling Eevee, with not a whole lot of great reasoning to back it up.  It is probably the most substantiated case, I just don't think the reasoning is sound and I don't think the data was collected fairly (not looking at his town play to see if it really is different).  Kinda feels like scum trying to push through an easy mis-lynch making his reasoning look really good with quotes from 2 separate games to back it up.  Just smells kinda fishy to me.  However, like others have said, I'm not comfortable lynching our top poster, especially considering his early play came across as quite towny to me.    This was the biggest thing that stuck out to me as I was catching up.  I'm ok with lynching a lurker ('cept me of course).  My excuse?  As I have said in every game I've played (I believe... correct me if I'm wrong) I really don't like D1.  I don't seem to want to give chairs the towncred everyone else does for "forgetting the game", and I have been burned by mislynching Archetype on at least one occasion, and I don't want to axe Eevee because I don't agree with TA's case.  Robz seems townier here to me, because I believe he has said himself that he doesn't care as much about the games he plays as town.  And that's the vibe I'm getting here.  Long story short vote: chairs

I do want to go back and re-read Jimmmm because I don't really remember anything he has done... But it's late, so maybe later. Keeping my eye on him.

I am willing to vote for ahoppy based off this post

[yuma]

not that i wasn't willing before, that just kinda makes me actually want to

[chairs]

Wow, 5 pages.  Just finished reading.

Yuma: As I read through these last 5 pages, my answer to your "Do you want to keep your vote on TwistedArcher" went from 'yes' to 'maybe' to 'yes' to 'ehhh, probably not'.  The argument for lynching Ahoppy kept getting stronger.  Ironic, then, that Ahoppy's recent "caught up" post is a vote for me based on my lurking.  Perhaps trying to get out in front of the possibility that I'd vote that direction, and trying to invoke LALL simultaneously?

Ahoppy: I agree that initially I felt TA's case on Eevee felt very much like tunneling.  However, I also feel (as you stated in your "Alright. I'm caught up." post) that TA is one of our top posters, which means we'll be able to feel him out later much more easily.  Now, you then mention LAL -but- excuse yourself with a simple "I don't like D1"... and then vote for me for lurking on D1.  I feel like this is remarkably hypocritical, and exactly the kind of thing I would try to slip under the radar as scum.

vote: Ahoppy.

[faust]

So, an AHoppy lynch mob has formed? What is the case on him, exactly? I mean, I guess his chairs vote is sort of fishy, but then again so is chairs' return vote on AHoppy.

[pingpongsam]

I was leaning towards and AHoppy lynch when Voltaire echoed my sentiments on him. His recent posts have come across rather scummy to me.

His arguments are too soft. He says that TA's case on Eevee is well substantiated but the logic isn't sound but then fails to show any logical failings. Where is this unsoundness he speaks of?
then he commits the same crime that I hold Robz accountable for. The, "well, I know I'm lurky here today but I think we should lynch this other lurker over there".

Finally, he hasn't really responded to any of the slowly building suspicion around him. When I am town my butt gets hurt. When I am scum I'd rather not call attention to suspicions on me but rather be the one casting it.

I still prefer a Robz lynch because I think his actions cannot even begin to be painted as Town. But I am also willing to Vote: AHoppy.

[AHoppy]

Wow, 5 pages.  Just finished reading.

Yuma: As I read through these last 5 pages, my answer to your "Do you want to keep your vote on TwistedArcher" went from 'yes' to 'maybe' to 'yes' to 'ehhh, probably not'.  The argument for lynching Ahoppy kept getting stronger.  Ironic, then, that Ahoppy's recent "caught up" post is a vote for me based on my lurking.  Perhaps trying to get out in front of the possibility that I'd vote that direction, and trying to invoke LALL simultaneously?

Ahoppy: I agree that initially I felt TA's case on Eevee felt very much like tunneling.  However, I also feel (as you stated in your "Alright. I'm caught up." post) that TA is one of our top posters, which means we'll be able to feel him out later much more easily.  Now, you then mention LAL -but- excuse yourself with a simple "I don't like D1"... and then vote for me for lurking on D1.  I feel like this is remarkably hypocritical, and exactly the kind of thing I would try to slip under the radar as scum.

vote: Ahoppy.

I don't find it hypocritical at all.  I feel like I have actively participated in this game, I put out my reads and helped to guide the discussion away from theory.  You, on the other hand have not really contributed a whole lot.  I see a lot of theory contribution on your part, but not as much once we moved away from that.  Also:

Reading through mafiascum games now.

Ever get anything from this? 

Also, I'm sorry.  I just found your post with the same D1 excuse as me

(for reference)
but I don't really want to lynch any of the other lurkers.

[Voltaire]

Sorry, I don't quite follow.

All I am saying is that Robz as scum and Robz as town aren't that similar, in my eyes. I am claiming a better-than-average ability at reading Robz based off meta. Robz would tell you the same thing, he's said it himself.

[AHoppy]

His arguments are too soft. He says that TA's case on Eevee is well substantiated but the logic isn't sound but then fails to show any logical failings. Where is this unsoundness he speaks of?

The logical failing is that his conclusion is Eevee is playing like he does as scum, therefore he must be scum! Vote for him!
However, he does not provide proof that Eevee does not play the same as town.  So that is not a valid conclusion.  I thought I had made that clear in both posts (the original and the one where I reiterated my case) but apparently not.

[AHoppy]

The suspicion on me is that I'm a lurker and that something "hasn't felt right" about some of my posts.  How do you expect me to respond to that?  I always lurk D1.  As to responding to gut feelings... I've just ignored them because I can't do anything about people's guts.

[Voltaire]

His arguments are too soft. He says that TA's case on Eevee is well substantiated but the logic isn't sound but then fails to show any logical failings. Where is this unsoundness he speaks of?

That TA didn't look at Eevee's town games.

[Voltaire]

The suspicion on me is that I'm a lurker and that something "hasn't felt right" about some of my posts.  How do you expect me to respond to that?  I always lurk D1.

If you are town, this makes the game so very difficult for us. How are you going to show us you're town if all you do is lurk? Unless you want a Robz meta of "that's just what you do", which I find personally frustrating but everyone has their own style of play so whatever.

I do echo yuma's comments that the people who are saying at this point "this day sucked" are strange, because we have had a real D1 now after a slow start. I don't like that either.

[Voltaire]

not that i wasn't willing before, that just kinda makes me actually want to

I think that's three votes on AHoppy, with yuma stating intent. Why haven't you voted yet?

[Teproc]

Yeah, I agree that AHoppy's post about TA is very scummy. My first reaction reading it was wanting to vote. Seeing people jump on him makes me feel uneasy, but I do think there's reason for it.

AHoppy, the problem is that you are trying to say that TA's case on Eevee is illogical because he's not looking at Eevee's town!meta, but that simply isn't true. TA has said that he generally thinks Eevee has gut reads as town and that he hasn't had that yet. I happen to disagree with TA, but the way you're trying to discredit his case is a little scummy, in that it looks like you chose to disagree with him, and then tried to scramble together a reasoning supporting that.

In fact, vote: AHoppy. I like that wagon a lot better.

PPE : Yes, this makes four.

[faust]

So there's no real argument against AHoppy expect that he lurks? Sorry, that's just not good enough. It it also interesting how barely anyone has responded to my case on Teproc; it makes me more certain that he actually is scum, and scum wants to pervent a late wagon on one of their own by talking about lynching a lurker.

[faust]

That Teproc jumps the AHoppy wagon now fits the picture very well.

[Voltaire]

So there's no real argument against AHoppy expect that he lurks? Sorry, that's just not good enough. It it also interesting how barely anyone has responded to my case on Teproc; it makes me more certain that he actually is scum, and scum wants to pervent a late wagon on one of their own by talking about lynching a lurker.

Lyching people based on them seeming scummy D1 almost never works! If you agree with my method (even a bit) you have to accept that you'll end up lynching someone that "feels" null.

I'll look at your case on Teproc now.

[Voltaire]

unvote wait.

Let's clear this up. AHoppy is making a good point about TA's Eevee case. (one I think he could make as scum or town, but a good point)

Why the hell is anyone voting him for that?

[faust]

So there's no real argument against AHoppy expect that he lurks? Sorry, that's just not good enough. It it also interesting how barely anyone has responded to my case on Teproc; it makes me more certain that he actually is scum, and scum wants to pervent a late wagon on one of their own by talking about lynching a lurker.

Lyching people based on them seeming scummy D1 almost never works! If you agree with my method (even a bit) you have to accept that you'll end up lynching someone that "feels" null.

I'll look at your case on Teproc now.

Maybe. But in this game, I want to on lynch over lynching someone that feels null.

[faust]

That should read "no lynch".