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[Twistedarcher]

"Thanks for all the help you dirty scum." That's what I heard...

I don't know what you're referring to here.

[Voltaire]

I mean, it just seems like a more complex way of us making sure that everyone claims before they die. I don't get what it accomplishes that just simply waiting for a claim before any lynch (even if claim isn't going to change the vote) does.

So it's not bad but I really don't get the point? Am I missing something?

No, I'm talking about the N1 and N2 doctors that may or may not exist not rolling 1-5, but 3-5, to increase the odds they're alive as hidden VTs for mafia to accidentally kill, since they'd be indistinguishable from N3-5 cops.

The "claim night at L-1" was originally a yuma idea, I think, and simply something I was re-stating.

[Twistedarcher]

Wait, but this goes hand in hand with a night claim, which I don't want to do. I'm confused. If there's not a night claim, aren't we just claiming random arbitrary numbers which have no impact?

[Twistedarcher]

Oh, I see. But that could lead to doctors potentially clearing scum until their flip which is bad. Because saying "if I'm a cop, I targeted Voltaire last night" and then not pulling a scum result on you is the same as saying "I copped Voltaire, he's town", isn't it? Which will be meaningless if I flip doctor, but not all doctors are going to flip, we want some to stay alive.

[Twistedarcher]

If the point is to cover for cops, we want to be covering for cops who have their power in future nights. Once a cop has used the power, they're useless, and if scum wants to nk them, that's actually great, since their result is confirmed. We want to cover for future cops, and the best way to do that is to all pretend we are future cops.

[Voltaire]

Wait, but this goes hand in hand with a night claim, which I don't want to do. I'm confused. If there's not a night claim, aren't we just claiming random arbitrary numbers which have no impact?

No it doesn't. Here's the plan, in full, as I currently understand/propose it:

1. Cops with a town result will claim the day after their investigation in their first post, hypothetically. So, a N1 cop who investigates town tonight opens tomorrow saying "If I were a N1 cop, I targeted Voltaire last night." If this Cop ever dies, we now know his target was town.
2. Doctors will randomly roll numbers 1-5 and, on the day after their "investigation", claim in their first post. So a N2 doctor who rolled "1" opens tomorrow saying "If I were a N1 cop, I targeted Voltaire last night." If this Doc ever dies, we now know they were just protecting our cops.

Mafia won't ever kill these claimed players, which means if the claimed player is a Doc they're almost certain to live until their actual investigation.

I am advocating that Doctors (and I think this would work for all doctors) all roll numbers 3-5, for example, instead of 1-5. This increases the number of days they are alive without "claiming" and ups the odds mafia NKs them.

I view the goal of doctors in this game to draw the NK.

So...thoughts? Actually I am now confused why this is any different from Cops just claiming their result the moment they have it. The act of typing this up made it fall to pieces in my head. Um.....

[Voltaire]

Oh, I see. But that could lead to doctors potentially clearing scum until their flip which is bad. Because saying "if I'm a cop, I targeted Voltaire last night" and then not pulling a scum result on you is the same as saying "I copped Voltaire, he's town", isn't it? Which will be meaningless if I flip doctor, but not all doctors are going to flip, we want some to stay alive.

Crap, you're right. Hmph.

Honestly I don't see anything better than just "Cops, always claim your result" right now.

[Twistedarcher]

But isn't the best way to protect future cops by doctors to stay quiet and pretend they haven't had a result yet, thus drawing the night kill? I'm not sure how this plan will help keep the n3, n4, n5 cop alive. I'm against this.

[Voltaire]

We want to cover for future cops, and the best way to do that is to all pretend we are future cops.

Yeah, which is just never claiming anything unless it's real. OK, I officially renounce all plans I think (even night claiming). Cops claim post-investigation (maybe delay your claim into the middle of the day if you can do it well, ala Jimmmmm in Chocolate), everyone else shutup, I think.

[yuma]

the idea was to have the information exist w/o a town cop saying that his result was already used up--and thus likely to no longer be targeted by mafia... but the lack of night flips prevents it. if their is a way to figure it out we should do it, but there isn't an obvious solution at the moment.

flavor names would allow it, but we are lacking flavor names,...

[Twistedarcher]

No, I don't think there is a way, unfortunately. Plus I feel like the recent use of flavor names may be heading towards abusing flavor names a little too much).

Town results should maybe be claimed, but by the end of the day rather than at the beginning (unless the target is a viable lynch target). It's definitely useful to see who ends up pushing a wagon on town members, as well.

[yuma]

No, I don't think there is a way, unfortunately. Plus I feel like the recent use of flavor names may be heading towards abusing flavor names a little too much).

oh i absolutely agree and am personally glad there are no flavo names and recommend future mods take a page out of this or create rules that do not allow for their abuse...

[Twistedarcher]

vote: pps

Slight scum read currently inflated by his interaction with Faust and Voltaire, who I find to be slightly townier.

[Voltaire]

I'm down to vote: pps. Bad gut feel from the tone of his posts/AtE/etc.

I honestly don't think I've ever played with town PPS though.

[AHoppy]

TL;DR bolded
So I have some time today to do some reading and catching up, so it's time for some reads (since I'm going back and reading more closely, I'm also going to give opinions on people's plans):

Archetype: First one to bring in the idea of claiming.  Brings up good point that claiming day can give scum a free pass.  Sticking to his guns, and giving reasons.  However, I'm not sure about his vote on nkirbit...  And he never seems to explain it, even after "leaning towards no massclaim" as nkirbit suggested. Read: very slight scum

yuma: Good advice telling people to not claim willy-nilly, makes a good point about faust not moving his vote.  Keeping his vote on yuma at this point isn't doing any good. Otherwise speaking sense. Read: null to slight town

Jimmmm: on board with claiming when their death cannot stop their power. Good advice to make sure town knows the setup, could have been a little more helpful by laying out exactly what we should know, but it's fine. Kind of feels like he's buddying yuma.

I agree with Jimmmm that PPS posts were kind of difficult to understand. Read: null

faust: proposes everyone claim cop/doc today, I think the best part of this plan is that scum has to fake-claim today, reducing their flexibility. I'm not sure what to take away from his immediate jumping on yuma, I'm not sure why playing the setup before means you need original thoughts.  He is the first to specify that people should not claim their nights, which I think is very good.  Comes up with the plan "If my shot was tonight I would have targeted XXX"  Which I think is a pretty good plan.  It allows for deduction of what happened at night, but does not give scum all the information.  Plus, it causes them to make more fakeclaims.
Don't like his "evidence" of chairs not being scum (like yuma), seems like he is looking for any excuse to get people on his side. Read: slight town

PPS: Vote on Robz is fine, I'm assuming it's to make him post some more... But you know, it could just be because Robz is Robz...  I think some of the hubub around him has been a misunderstanding, specifically this post:

which seems to be a thought that has 12 steps of background he did in his head and jumped to the conclusion he wrote down (I do this all the time in real life... It can get awkward...).  He is quite quick to jump down Jimmmm's and faust's throats.  Not a fan.  He does explain his thought process, and while I think it is flawed, that gives me a null read (both town and scum can be wrong). 

This scenario will never come to pass. Reasons:
- you assume only docs die until D3. That would mean that town lynches claimed docs twice, which is something we can prevent.

It is patently obvious that I assume at least one successful Mafia lynch.

it wasn't obvious to me until I re-read it at least twice.  I don't like your condescension.  It's not helping town. Getting inflamed is often, in my experience, a town trait, but I've never played with PPS. Read: slight scum

Volt:  The lack of presence is somewhat disconcerting to me.  He was quite vocal and making waves in Modern Community (where we were town best-friends) and he doesn't seem to be doing that here.  Slight scum read for not making waves.  Probably not good to base my read off one game, but that's all I got.  I really don't understand this rolling plan... Read: slight scum

nkirbit: speaks sense.  However, not much going on w/ him  Read: null

scott_pilgrim: Null, not really getting anything on him.  (side note:  Oooh, where do you go to school in the east? I'm in PA) Read: null

TA: also speaks sense, and makes a good point about PPS: someone being wrong on theory doesn't make them scummy. He's actually putting reads out there already and not just talking straight theory (he does talk plenty of theory, but really, he's the only one putting out reads up to Pg 9.)  Read: town

Eevee: only thinks cops with results claim.  Otherwise, not seeing much Read: null

Robz: He needs to show up... Read: null

chairs: see Robz Read: null

I don't think I missed anyone... but that's what I have so far.  As far as plans go:  cops should claim on positive scum result.  Docs: never claim.  see: nkirbit and TA's arguments.

[Voltaire]

Volt:  The lack of presence is somewhat disconcerting to me.  He was quite vocal and making waves in Modern Community (where we were town best-friends) and he doesn't seem to be doing that here.  Slight scum read for not making waves.  Probably not good to base my read off one game, but that's all I got.  I really don't understand this rolling plan... Read: slight scum

Hee hee. This again. Of course now I have to say that this case has never been pushed on me by town while I am town (as I was scum when Robz used it against me in Chocolate), so...I can't really OMGUS you I guess. 

[yuma]

I don't want to vote for Ahoppy as I don't really want to discourage his type of posts or behavior (motivating people to post reads not theory), but I am always wary of the player taking on that role as it is one that is so easily done by scum...

[Voltaire]

It is very easy, but why would you vote him for it? Just take it as a null action and appreciate that it moves the game forward.

[yuma]

That is why I am not voting for him. But I don't take it as a null action. Honestly I take it as a slightly scummier action, but not one that I am about to vote solely because of. If it was just a null action I wouldn't have said anything about it.

[Voltaire]

Gotcha. You and Eevee have both expressed scum reads to players doing easy pro-town things, and I don't want to discourage town players doing pro-town things. If scum is going to help us out, so be it. If AHoppy is scum, it's good to have a post like that on your radar but it takes more to prove it later on.

Basically I want to make sure we're not discouraging town from playing lest they receive votes!

[yuma]

Basically I want to make sure we're not discouraging town from playing lest they receive votes!

Right, hence why I am not voting. It is a tricky situation and one that I think the best thing to do is to just have town actually act pro-town for once.

You know... maybe have them post with regularity, provide clear, concise re-reads, don't tunnel or claim at ridiculous moments? Really though people shouldn't be discouraged from doing pro-town things as town... they should just be doing it anyways because they are town and shouldn't care what other people think.

[Twistedarcher]

Oops, after reading Ahoppy's post, I realized that the PPS interaction was with Jimmm/Faust, not with Voltaire/Faust.

I'm not seeing the lack of presence from Voltaire really. Seems normal.

Last 5 posts = Yuma/Voltaire agreeing = clearly, one of them MUST be scum!

[Twistedarcher]

Is deadline really on the 16th? 5 days for D1?

[yuma]

This game will have 14 day deadlines and 48 hour night deadlines.

Must be a typo

[AHoppy]

I'm not seeing the lack of presence from Voltaire really. Seems normal.

He's definitely not the lowest poster, but he isn't pissing people off like he did in Modern Community.  His stances aren't as strong as they were there.