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[yuma]

So I had a thought that I think I will implement in the next game I moderate and thought I would throw it out there for use/discussion.

In that past there are numerous examples of games being impacted, or potentially being impacted, because a player was not online during the night when night actions would need to be submitted. ehunt/cayvie in MXVI is an example I remember specifically because I was modding that game.

Basically what I am saying is that going into that day ehunt was in a difficult position. He knew that at day break only he (scum), Insomniac (who had become an IC via game play) and cayvie would be alive. However, cayvie had not logged into the forum for an extended period of time. As a result an observant Insomniac might have concluded that cayvie could not be scum because she was not around to submit a night action. This created an unwanted dilemma.

I think the best way to fix this is to require all players, regardless of whether or not they have a PR to check in during the night. By check in, I mean that they would be required to PM the moderator something... saying "hi" or their thoughts on the game, anything... and the game day would not start until everyone had done so. Mafia would also need to send a forum PM as well and not just check into their quicktopic for consistency's sake.

This does a few things.

1. it lets mods know who is still actively participating in the game and will allow for faster substitutions if someone is no longer playing after a night ends.
2. it will prevent speculation that occurs if a game is delayed because a PR or mafia has disappeared

I think it will also be necessary to ask any PRs, if they go on VLA, to submit a player on whom to use their power during the night before they go VLA. This can be subject to change if the VLA player is able to get access or return to the game before night ends.

Do you guys think this would be useful? Do you see any problems that might come up that I am overlooking? It hasn't been a big issue, but I can easily see it becoming a game altering one if the right situation formed to create it.

[sudgy]

It seems like a good idea to me.

[ashersky]

I like it.

[Archetype]

It should work. I wouldn't mind using it if it were implemented into games.

But is it really needed? I guess better safe than sorry, and by the sound of your story, we were almost sorry.

[liopoil]

Good idea, would have helped in NMIII, when we needed a replacement for a PR during the night.

[EFHW]

Does it matter if other people know when you checked in?  You could make a check in qt, so the mod doesn't need to coordinate so many PMs.  Put the link in the announcement of night start.

Seems like there is a risk of night getting extended indefinitely if someone goes unexpectedly VLA without telling us, which does happen now and again.

Does the order that night actions are submitted in ever make a difference, or are they just all resolved at once at dawn?

[ashersky]

Does it matter if other people know when you checked in?  You could make a check in qt, so the mod doesn't need to coordinate so many PMs.  Put the link in the announcement of night start.

Seems like there is a risk of night getting extended indefinitely if someone goes unexpectedly VLA without telling us, which does happen now and again.

Does the order that night actions are submitted in ever make a difference, or are they just all resolved at once at dawn?

Order of receipt doesn't matter; there is a natural order of resolution mods follow (generally).

I think a QT defeats the purpose, since everyone would be able to see when/if/who checked in.

My modus operandi is to give one prod halfway through the night to anyone with a night action.  Then when the night deadline comes, just start the day with that person taking no action.

[Archetype]

My modus operandi is to give one prod halfway through the night to anyone with a night action.  Then when the night deadline comes, just start the day with that person taking no action.

This is what I do and use BCC.

[EFHW]

I think a QT defeats the purpose, since everyone would be able to see when/if/who checked in.

Maybe I misunderstood.  I thought the purpose was to make the when/if information non-informative, because there would be no "if", and when doesn't matter.

[ashersky]

I think a QT defeats the purpose, since everyone would be able to see when/if/who checked in.

Maybe I misunderstood.  I thought the purpose was to make the when/if information non-informative, because there would be no "if", and when doesn't matter.

But a public QT tells everyone who didn't check in, so if the game starts up missing a kill or something, everyone will immediately look at that person.

[yuma]

well the whole point of it is to not start the game regardless of whether or not the missing person had a PR or night kill. Even if the person missing was a VT day start would be delayed until a replacement was found. The whole point is to avoid people speculating about PRs and NKs. However, I think I would still prefer keeping it out of a quicktopic and do PMs to the mod to avoid any sort of WIFOM that people might do by trying to write in the QT later or earlier or in groups or anything else like that.

[theorel]

I think if you're going to start the day early, you should just have the missing player take a random night action.  But then they shouldn't be required to check in by PM because you could still see the last time they checked in.

Basically if a player is missing going into night, you can start looking for a replacement then, for the case that they don't check in.  If a player is missing coming out of night, you start looking for a replacement then and assign them a random night action.

[theorel]

I think if you're going to start the day early, you should just have the missing player take a random night action.  But then they shouldn't be required to check in by PM because you could still see the last time they checked in.

Basically if a player is missing going into night, you can start looking for a replacement then, for the case that they don't check in.  If a player is missing coming out of night, you start looking for a replacement then and assign them a random night action.

By early I mean before finding a replacement...not before the deadline.  No editing allowed here though

[mcmcsalot]

This is unnecesary and unneedd an let me explain why. Scum does not actually need to be logged in to the forum to make their night action. Scum could be completely gone from the forum for days and still post in their qt without anyone knowing, so the theory of looking who was online to post a nk is not useful. If someone is not around to post a nk I think that is a different issue, we do not need to enforce a rule that says scum has to log on and make a post because if they do not submit a night action that is at their own expense(this is more a replace or begin day question). As for town power roles, these are currently submitted via pm so seeing who logged on to use a power(more importantly who did not log on to use a power) is the only issue. In all honesty I see no problem with this because yes town could theoretically say if you are a vt do not log on for all of night and we will know who our pr's are. But scum would also not log on(just post in their qt) and both town and scum would know who the pr's were. Which is bad for town, so I think it is simply up to the town players to log on at sometime during night to protect their power roles, if they choose not to it only hurts town.

[liopoil]

well, I log on for other reasons than just posting my NK if I'm scum... so do most other people... so seeing someone not log on during night means they probably didn't have access...

[mcmcsalot]

well, I log on for other reasons than just posting my NK if I'm scum... so do most other people... so seeing someone not log on during night means they probably didn't have access...

right but even if you didn't log on as scum, you could have posted in the qt. So again, this can only hurt town by having town not log on and revealing who is a town vt. This can be fixed by allowing town pr's to submit actions at any time during the day as well like night less scum kills.

[liopoil]

I dunno... if there's only one scum left in a game, and I'm the only one who doesn't log on during the night, and there is a kill, people are gonna assume that I'm town. I would log on to the forum for other reasons, like reading stuff about dominion, or my non-mafia forum games, or another mafia game which is in day, if I had access to be able to submit the kill. Of course, I might purposely not log-on to take advantage of this, but it seems like unneccessary WIFOM that shouldn't be in these games...

[mcmcsalot]

I dunno... if there's only one scum left in a game, and I'm the only one who doesn't log on during the night, and there is a kill, people are gonna assume that I'm town. I would log on to the forum for other reasons, like reading stuff about dominion, or my non-mafia forum games, or another mafia game which is in day, if I had access to be able to submit the kill. Of course, I might purposely not log-on to take advantage of this, but it seems like unneccessary WIFOM that shouldn't be in these games...

Right you could log on or not and still submit a nk in your qt. So it doesn't matter if you log on or not you cannot determine scum based on there log-on activity. Which means there is no need to add an everyone has to log on during night rule.

[Twistedarcher]

Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

[mcmcsalot]

Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

Fine next time I'm scum ill stay away from the forums all of night and win.

[yuma]

Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

Fine next time I'm scum ill stay away from the forums all of night and win.

Not if I'm hosting the game. Because you will have to sign in to send me a PM saying that you acknowledge that day has ended and that night has now started. Both scum and town have to send the PM.

That is the whole point to eliminate that sort of thinking about both scum and power roles, and to also eliminate the problem that occurs when people need to be replaced during the night.

[mcmcsalot]

Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

Fine next time I'm scum ill stay away from the forums all of night and win.

Not if I'm hosting the game. Because you will have to sign in to send me a PM saying that you acknowledge that day has ended and that night has now started. Both scum and town have to send the PM.

That is the whole point to eliminate that sort of thinking about both scum and power roles, and to also eliminate the problem that occurs when people need to be replaced during the night.

Okay so if someone is gone during night they get replaced? That is really the change that you are making, the fact that everyone has to message you once does nothing but let you know they are still playing. If that is all you wanted to do I am fine with it, you made the post claiming it was to stop people from pr hunting based on logins during night.

I am saying that hunting using night logins is fair because town and scum would gain the information equally and so it is up to town to protect there pr's and log in at least once. Scum doesn't need to be on so you can't scum hunt using logins.

Also if you really wanted to allow pr's an equal chance let them submit there night action during the day.

All that said I don't mind having to message you to prove I am still playing I just wanted it clear that's all it really does. I can still message you immediately when night begins and then leave the rest of night.

[yuma]

The main point is to prevent what happened in the newbie game where the start of day was delayed because a player that had a PR had abandoned the game. As such anyone that was paying attention could attempt to deduce that the player that would be replacing in was either scum or a PR.

Eliminating the deduction based of log ins and such to me is just a bonus because that is a part of the game that to me is just unnatural and is only a part of it because of the format in which we play. It isn't that I dont' think players should be able to do it. I think they should if the constraints of the game allow for it, it certainly isn't cheating. It is just part of the game that I find less appealing and would prefer to eliminate if I can.

[Archetype]

I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.

[yuma]

I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.

why should the rest of town be punished because someone else decided that they didn't want to play the game anymore?

[ashersky]

Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

Fine next time I'm scum ill stay away from the forums all of night and win.

Not if I'm hosting the game. Because you will have to sign in to send me a PM saying that you acknowledge that day has ended and that night has now started. Both scum and town have to send the PM.

That is the whole point to eliminate that sort of thinking about both scum and power roles, and to also eliminate the problem that occurs when people need to be replaced during the night.

You won't accept posting in the scum QT as proof they are still playing?

[yuma]

Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

Fine next time I'm scum ill stay away from the forums all of night and win.

Not if I'm hosting the game. Because you will have to sign in to send me a PM saying that you acknowledge that day has ended and that night has now started. Both scum and town have to send the PM.

That is the whole point to eliminate that sort of thinking about both scum and power roles, and to also eliminate the problem that occurs when people need to be replaced during the night.

You won't accept posting in the scum QT as proof they are still playing?

No.

[mcmcsalot]

The main point is to prevent what happened in the newbie game where the start of day was delayed because a player that had a PR had abandoned the game. As such anyone that was paying attention could attempt to deduce that the player that would be replacing in was either scum or a PR.

Eliminating the deduction based of log ins and such to me is just a bonus because that is a part of the game that to me is just unnatural and is only a part of it because of the format in which we play. It isn't that I dont' think players should be able to do it. I think they should if the constraints of the game allow for it, it certainly isn't cheating. It is just part of the game that I find less appealing and would prefer to eliminate if I can.

So your first point as I said is what you are really changing, I was under the impression that if someone is gone you just begin the next day and let the person lose there night action if they do not post one. You instead want them to confirm they are playing so that they do not lose an action due to needing to be replaced, which is understandable.

[yuma]

or at least as I am using this model. And I probably won't accept actions in QTs anymore either. I think all actions should be sent via PM to the mod.

 If people really don't like it then I won't do it. But it seems like such a simple thing... Once you see that there has been a lynch, PM me. Tell me your thoughts if you want. Just let me know that you are around.

[Archetype]

I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.

why should the rest of town be punished because someone else decided that they didn't want to play the game anymore?

But it's not always that case (I'll replace them out if it is). Some people are V/LA during the night and can't check-in or can submit a night action beforehand.

[yuma]

I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.

why should the rest of town be punished because someone else decided that they didn't want to play the game anymore?

But it's not always that case (I'll replace them out if it is). Some people are V/LA during the night and can't check-in or can submit a night action beforehand.

then the game will be delayed... or better yet. Everyone that is going VLA and has a PR needs to tell me before they leave who they would like to use their power on, subject to change if they can obtain access during the night some how. If they say nothing before they leave, then their power won't be used.

My biggest concern is people who drop out of the games w/o saying anything in the middle of night and leave me and their town hanging, wondering what happened to them.

[mcmcsalot]

I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.

why should the rest of town be punished because someone else decided that they didn't want to play the game anymore?

The idea is this should not happen in the first place, and providing a way to leave games at night may facilitate it happening more often. I would simply make it so that joining a game has to be approved by the mod and ask people take it seriously as a commitment to the other people you are playing with. If something comes up I don't see the difficulty of sending one pm saying I need to be replaced. Instead you are saying everyone should post saying I'm still playing and if someone doesn't they get replaced, this will disrupt night just as much just at the beginning instead of the end. You will still need to not start day till a replacement is found so noone can deduce if the replaced player is scum or pr.

[mcmcsalot]

How long do we have when night starts to pm you? Because however long that is is how long it will take to find out if someone has dropped out. What if someone goes Vla for the first half of night and can't be around at deadline(so they inform you before day end) and then they drop out because there v/la turned into a drop out and they don't inform you. Still going to have no idea they dropped out till mid to end of night.

[Archetype]

I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.

why should the rest of town be punished because someone else decided that they didn't want to play the game anymore?

The idea is this should not happen in the first place, and providing a way to leave games at night may facilitate it happening more often. I would simply make it so that joining a game has to be approved by the mod and ask people take it seriously as a commitment to the other people you are playing with. If something comes up I don't see the difficulty of sending one pm saying I need to be replaced. Instead you are saying everyone should post saying I'm still playing and if someone doesn't they get replaced, this will disrupt night just as much just at the beginning instead of the end. You will still need to not start day till a replacement is found so noone can deduce if the replaced player is scum or pr.

Bit of an extreme situation, but what if someone loses power during the night and they are trying to get an Internet connection as quickly as possible and then returns to find they have been replaced? I think it should be taken as a case-by-case situation, instead of just auto replacing someone out if they don't send a PM during the night.

[ashersky]

How long do we have when night starts to pm you? Because however long that is is how long it will take to find out if someone has dropped out. What if someone goes Vla for the first half of night and can't be around at deadline(so they inform you before day end) and then they drop out because there v/la turned into a drop out and they don't inform you. Still going to have no idea they dropped out till mid to end of night.

I think the harder part of this is a situation in which a PR or mafioso has not PMed within the first 24 hours of a lynch occurring.

Nights run (generally) 48 hours.  Given it probably takes a day to get a replacement (even with a substitution roster, you'd have to get that person a PM and a response), the PM deadline is probably halfway through night, or 24 hours.

If a lynch occurs on a Saturday, it's possible people don't see it until Monday.  I PM all PRs that haven't contacted me at night at the 24-hour mark.  That way I know they got a message from me (plus an email notification) regarding night actions.  If they don't give me an order in time, unless it is a compulsory action, they just take none.

With yuma's system, instead of a PM at the 24-hour mark, you get replaced.  I guess if that's clear from the very beginning of the game, it's okay, since everyone has fair warning.

[yuma]

How long do we have when night starts to pm you? Because however long that is is how long it will take to find out if someone has dropped out. What if someone goes Vla for the first half of night and can't be around at deadline(so they inform you before day end) and then they drop out because there v/la turned into a drop out and they don't inform you. Still going to have no idea they dropped out till mid to end of night.

People can PM immediately after I post the flip. By PMing me they basically say that they are aware night has started and that they have X-hours to get me a PR action if they have one. If I don't hear back from them, they will not submit a night action. If I don't receive a PM from them at all during night then, yes day would be delayed as I seek a replacement regardless if they are PR/mafia/vanilla.

and like I said above, anyone that goes VLA will be required to let me know who they would like to use their PR on before they leave. If they don't, it will be interpreted as a no action for that night.

[yuma]

I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.

why should the rest of town be punished because someone else decided that they didn't want to play the game anymore?

The idea is this should not happen in the first place, and providing a way to leave games at night may facilitate it happening more often. I would simply make it so that joining a game has to be approved by the mod and ask people take it seriously as a commitment to the other people you are playing with. If something comes up I don't see the difficulty of sending one pm saying I need to be replaced. Instead you are saying everyone should post saying I'm still playing and if someone doesn't they get replaced, this will disrupt night just as much just at the beginning instead of the end. You will still need to not start day till a replacement is found so noone can deduce if the replaced player is scum or pr.

Bit of an extreme situation, but what if someone loses power during the night and they are trying to get an Internet connection as quickly as possible and then returns to find they have been replaced? I think it should be taken as a case-by-case situation, instead of just auto replacing someone out if they don't send a PM during the night.

what is this? A dominion edge-case discussion? 

I see what you mean. But that is how it is in normal games. 48 hours absence, a prod is sent. (A prod would also be sent during the night.) If no response is given within 24 hours a replacement is sought out. A replacement would also be sought out after 24 hours of no response.

Your hypothetical would have the same result to that player as it would if it happened during the day. Moral of the story. Don't lose your power and Internet connection for more than 72 hours. If it is an emergency. Sorry! We just won't be mad at you for dropping out like we would someone else who didn't have a good excuse.

[yuma]

But like I said, if people absolutly hate it, I won't do it.

I just dont' see what there is to hate. All it takes is a simple PM once you read the flip. Talk to me about the game (a lot of players do this anyways! "ARGGG! I can't believe that just happened!!!" "This game is awesome, my scumbuddies are rocking it!!!" "I can't believe they lynched the cop!!!")

If you go on VLA send me a PM telling me you are going on VLA, how long you expect to be gone, when you will be back and what actions you would like to take. That is just the nice thing to do anyways, but now it is a rule!

[Archetype]

What I'm saying is I don't care personally if you do it (I get on here often enough), but I worry for the people that aren't on here often enough. I certainly won't be implementing it in my games, but if it's your game, you can do whatever the heck you want with it.

[yuma]

What I'm saying is I don't care personally if you do it (I get on here often enough), but I worry for the people that aren't on here often enough. I certainly won't be implementing it in my games, but if it's your game, you can do whatever the heck you want with it.

If people aren't getting on here at least every 48 hours they shouldn't be in the game... It is in the rules. If they have a VLA that is fine, but my idea covers that problem.

[liopoil]

I think I'll probably be using this in any game I may run... that is, ones that have a night phase, so not the blitz one

[Twistedarcher]

Eliminating the deduction based of log ins and such to me is just a bonus because that is a part of the game that to me is just unnatural and is only a part of it because of the format in which we play. It isn't that I dont' think players should be able to do it. I think they should if the constraints of the game allow for it, it certainly isn't cheating. It is just part of the game that I find less appealing and would prefer to eliminate if I can.

+1 for this. This is exactly the reason why I have "always appear offline" checked in this and every other forum.

If I am just having a bad day, and want to read but not post the thread, or just not log onto the forums one evening, that shouldn't impact the game in my view. It's one thing if someone is lurking, but it's another to say "he logged in three hours ago but didn't say anything". Reads should be based on what's said, not on someone's log in patterns.

[liopoil]

I didn't know you could do that... O.o

[Twistedarcher]

I didn't know you could do that... O.o

Just uncheck "show others my online status"

[mcmcsalot]

I want to say personally I don't mind this at all, I love pm'ing the mods and would actually enjoy it. I was just arguing the fact that I don't think it will help and would rather hold people to a higher standard of hey don't ditch your friends. I mean if a group of people planned on playing a baseball game it would really suck if half way through an inning the pitcher(on the batting team) said he had to go. I mean yea you could call up your other friends and ask if any of them wanted to play but it slows down the whole pace of the game and kinda sucks. So I would just as well rather than give people opportunities to "check in" assume not invite my friends that ditch half way through. Yes I understand emergencies, but again this system doesn't deal with emergencies any better.

[liopoil]

I think I'll leave it as is for now though, usually I'm fine with other people knowing I'm online.