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Author Topic: Mod Idea: Solution to Prevent Speculation of PRs based on Night Activity  (Read 5021 times)

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yuma

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So I had a thought that I think I will implement in the next game I moderate and thought I would throw it out there for use/discussion.

In that past there are numerous examples of games being impacted, or potentially being impacted, because a player was not online during the night when night actions would need to be submitted. ehunt/cayvie in MXVI is an example I remember specifically because I was modding that game.

Basically what I am saying is that going into that day ehunt was in a difficult position. He knew that at day break only he (scum), Insomniac (who had become an IC via game play) and cayvie would be alive. However, cayvie had not logged into the forum for an extended period of time. As a result an observant Insomniac might have concluded that cayvie could not be scum because she was not around to submit a night action. This created an unwanted dilemma.

I think the best way to fix this is to require all players, regardless of whether or not they have a PR to check in during the night. By check in, I mean that they would be required to PM the moderator something... saying "hi" or their thoughts on the game, anything... and the game day would not start until everyone had done so. Mafia would also need to send a forum PM as well and not just check into their quicktopic for consistency's sake.

This does a few things.

1. it lets mods know who is still actively participating in the game and will allow for faster substitutions if someone is no longer playing after a night ends.
2. it will prevent speculation that occurs if a game is delayed because a PR or mafia has disappeared

I think it will also be necessary to ask any PRs, if they go on VLA, to submit a player on whom to use their power during the night before they go VLA. This can be subject to change if the VLA player is able to get access or return to the game before night ends.

Do you guys think this would be useful? Do you see any problems that might come up that I am overlooking? It hasn't been a big issue, but I can easily see it becoming a game altering one if the right situation formed to create it.
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sudgy

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It seems like a good idea to me.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ashersky

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I like it.
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It should work. I wouldn't mind using it if it were implemented into games.

But is it really needed? I guess better safe than sorry, and by the sound of your story, we were almost sorry.
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liopoil

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Good idea, would have helped in NMIII, when we needed a replacement for a PR during the night.
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EFHW

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Does it matter if other people know when you checked in?  You could make a check in qt, so the mod doesn't need to coordinate so many PMs.  Put the link in the announcement of night start.

Seems like there is a risk of night getting extended indefinitely if someone goes unexpectedly VLA without telling us, which does happen now and again.

Does the order that night actions are submitted in ever make a difference, or are they just all resolved at once at dawn?
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ashersky

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Does it matter if other people know when you checked in?  You could make a check in qt, so the mod doesn't need to coordinate so many PMs.  Put the link in the announcement of night start.

Seems like there is a risk of night getting extended indefinitely if someone goes unexpectedly VLA without telling us, which does happen now and again.

Does the order that night actions are submitted in ever make a difference, or are they just all resolved at once at dawn?

Order of receipt doesn't matter; there is a natural order of resolution mods follow (generally).

I think a QT defeats the purpose, since everyone would be able to see when/if/who checked in.

My modus operandi is to give one prod halfway through the night to anyone with a night action.  Then when the night deadline comes, just start the day with that person taking no action.
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My modus operandi is to give one prod halfway through the night to anyone with a night action.  Then when the night deadline comes, just start the day with that person taking no action.
This is what I do and use BCC.
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EFHW

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I think a QT defeats the purpose, since everyone would be able to see when/if/who checked in.


Maybe I misunderstood.  I thought the purpose was to make the when/if information non-informative, because there would be no "if", and when doesn't matter.
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ashersky

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I think a QT defeats the purpose, since everyone would be able to see when/if/who checked in.


Maybe I misunderstood.  I thought the purpose was to make the when/if information non-informative, because there would be no "if", and when doesn't matter.

But a public QT tells everyone who didn't check in, so if the game starts up missing a kill or something, everyone will immediately look at that person.
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yuma

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well the whole point of it is to not start the game regardless of whether or not the missing person had a PR or night kill. Even if the person missing was a VT day start would be delayed until a replacement was found. The whole point is to avoid people speculating about PRs and NKs. However, I think I would still prefer keeping it out of a quicktopic and do PMs to the mod to avoid any sort of WIFOM that people might do by trying to write in the QT later or earlier or in groups or anything else like that.
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theorel

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I think if you're going to start the day early, you should just have the missing player take a random night action.  But then they shouldn't be required to check in by PM because you could still see the last time they checked in.

Basically if a player is missing going into night, you can start looking for a replacement then, for the case that they don't check in.  If a player is missing coming out of night, you start looking for a replacement then and assign them a random night action.
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theorel

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I think if you're going to start the day early, you should just have the missing player take a random night action.  But then they shouldn't be required to check in by PM because you could still see the last time they checked in.

Basically if a player is missing going into night, you can start looking for a replacement then, for the case that they don't check in.  If a player is missing coming out of night, you start looking for a replacement then and assign them a random night action.
By early I mean before finding a replacement...not before the deadline.  No editing allowed here though :)
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mcmcsalot

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This is unnecesary and unneedd an let me explain why. Scum does not actually need to be logged in to the forum to make their night action. Scum could be completely gone from the forum for days and still post in their qt without anyone knowing, so the theory of looking who was online to post a nk is not useful. If someone is not around to post a nk I think that is a different issue, we do not need to enforce a rule that says scum has to log on and make a post because if they do not submit a night action that is at their own expense(this is more a replace or begin day question). As for town power roles, these are currently submitted via pm so seeing who logged on to use a power(more importantly who did not log on to use a power) is the only issue. In all honesty I see no problem with this because yes town could theoretically say if you are a vt do not log on for all of night and we will know who our pr's are. But scum would also not log on(just post in their qt) and both town and scum would know who the pr's were. Which is bad for town, so I think it is simply up to the town players to log on at sometime during night to protect their power roles, if they choose not to it only hurts town.
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liopoil

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well, I log on for other reasons than just posting my NK if I'm scum... so do most other people... so seeing someone not log on during night means they probably didn't have access...
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mcmcsalot

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well, I log on for other reasons than just posting my NK if I'm scum... so do most other people... so seeing someone not log on during night means they probably didn't have access...

right but even if you didn't log on as scum, you could have posted in the qt. So again, this can only hurt town by having town not log on and revealing who is a town vt. This can be fixed by allowing town pr's to submit actions at any time during the day as well like night less scum kills.
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liopoil

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I dunno... if there's only one scum left in a game, and I'm the only one who doesn't log on during the night, and there is a kill, people are gonna assume that I'm town. I would log on to the forum for other reasons, like reading stuff about dominion, or my non-mafia forum games, or another mafia game which is in day, if I had access to be able to submit the kill. Of course, I might purposely not log-on to take advantage of this, but it seems like unneccessary WIFOM that shouldn't be in these games...
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mcmcsalot

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I dunno... if there's only one scum left in a game, and I'm the only one who doesn't log on during the night, and there is a kill, people are gonna assume that I'm town. I would log on to the forum for other reasons, like reading stuff about dominion, or my non-mafia forum games, or another mafia game which is in day, if I had access to be able to submit the kill. Of course, I might purposely not log-on to take advantage of this, but it seems like unneccessary WIFOM that shouldn't be in these games...

Right you could log on or not and still submit a nk in your qt. So it doesn't matter if you log on or not you cannot determine scum based on there log-on activity. Which means there is no need to add an everyone has to log on during night rule.
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Twistedarcher

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Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.
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mcmcsalot

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Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

Fine next time I'm scum ill stay away from the forums all of night and win.
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yuma

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Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

Fine next time I'm scum ill stay away from the forums all of night and win.

Not if I'm hosting the game. Because you will have to sign in to send me a PM saying that you acknowledge that day has ended and that night has now started. Both scum and town have to send the PM.

That is the whole point to eliminate that sort of thinking about both scum and power roles, and to also eliminate the problem that occurs when people need to be replaced during the night.
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mcmcsalot

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Right, but I'm sure that, 99% of the time someone's on a QT to submit a kill, they're also on the forums to read the thread and such. I think it's a fair, and usually valid, assumption that if someone wasn't on the forums reading the game, they weren't on a QT discussing the game.

Fine next time I'm scum ill stay away from the forums all of night and win.

Not if I'm hosting the game. Because you will have to sign in to send me a PM saying that you acknowledge that day has ended and that night has now started. Both scum and town have to send the PM.

That is the whole point to eliminate that sort of thinking about both scum and power roles, and to also eliminate the problem that occurs when people need to be replaced during the night.

Okay so if someone is gone during night they get replaced? That is really the change that you are making, the fact that everyone has to message you once does nothing but let you know they are still playing. If that is all you wanted to do I am fine with it, you made the post claiming it was to stop people from pr hunting based on logins during night.

I am saying that hunting using night logins is fair because town and scum would gain the information equally and so it is up to town to protect there pr's and log in at least once. Scum doesn't need to be on so you can't scum hunt using logins.

Also if you really wanted to allow pr's an equal chance let them submit there night action during the day.

All that said I don't mind having to message you to prove I am still playing I just wanted it clear that's all it really does. I can still message you immediately when night begins and then leave the rest of night.
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yuma

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The main point is to prevent what happened in the newbie game where the start of day was delayed because a player that had a PR had abandoned the game. As such anyone that was paying attention could attempt to deduce that the player that would be replacing in was either scum or a PR.

Eliminating the deduction based of log ins and such to me is just a bonus because that is a part of the game that to me is just unnatural and is only a part of it because of the format in which we play. It isn't that I dont' think players should be able to do it. I think they should if the constraints of the game allow for it, it certainly isn't cheating. It is just part of the game that I find less appealing and would prefer to eliminate if I can.
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Archetype

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I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.
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yuma

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I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If someone doesn't do something during the night, I'll make it a random action.

why should the rest of town be punished because someone else decided that they didn't want to play the game anymore?
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