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[HeavyD]

If I play my Black Market, then follow it by playing my Talisman and buy a card in the Black Market deck costing $4 or less, do I gain a copy of that card?

[michaeljb]

No; Talisman tries to gain from the supply (default behavior for gaining), but the Black Market deck is not part of the supply.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Only if there's a copy of that card in the supply. Gains always come from the supply unless specified otherwise.

[HeavyD]

Appreciate the clarification! 

[ConMan]

However, since the Talisman stays out until Clean-up,.  its effect does still count for anything you buy during the Buy phase.

[GendoIkari]

Only if there's a copy of that card in the supply. Gains always come from the supply unless specified otherwise.

This is a bit confusing/misleading, since there can't ever be a copy of that card in the supply.

[Awaclus]

Only if there's a copy of that card in the supply. Gains always come from the supply unless specified otherwise.

This is a bit confusing/misleading, since there can't ever be a copy of that card in the supply.

Yet.

[Watno]

Only if there's a copy of that card in the supply. Gains always come from the supply unless specified otherwise.

This is a bit confusing/misleading, since there can't ever be a copy of that card in the supply.

Not yet. But maybe a card in Guilds allows this.

[GendoIkari]

Only if there's a copy of that card in the supply. Gains always come from the supply unless specified otherwise.

This is a bit confusing/misleading, since there can't ever be a copy of that card in the supply.

Not yet. But maybe a card in Guilds allows this.

How? The Black Market cards has its own rules that it comes with. And they specifically say that you make up the Black Market deck with cards that aren't being used in this game... no future card or rule is every going to completely contradict or change that rule of Black Market.

[Morgrim7]

I highly doubt that Guilds will compromise the rules of Black Market. What would such a card look like?
~~~~~ $3 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$1
When you play this, cards in the Black Market deck are cards in the supply.

Seems like a waste of card to me.

[Pikanto]

Talisman & Black Market reminds me of a Thread about Talisman & Knights, which is a similar constellation.
You can't get a second knight with Talisman too.

[Awaclus]

I highly doubt that Guilds will compromise the rules of Black Market. What would such a card look like?
~~~~~ $3 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$1
When you play this, cards in the Black Market deck are cards in the supply.

Seems like a waste of card to me.

It could look like this:

White Market $5 Action
+1 cantrip
Reveal the top 3 cards of the Black Market deck. Choose one of those cards, then remove a supply pile from the game and put an extra pile in the supply with 9 copies of that card and return that card to the supply. Put the unchosen cards on the bottom of the Black Market deck in any order.
(Before the game, make a Black Market deck out of one copy of each Kingdom card in the supply.)

Okay, so this is a stupid card for multiple reasons (3-piling? What 3-piling?), but it is possible without it being a waste of a card.

[SirPeebles]

That still doesn't work.  Now you can gain the card from the Supply, but you can't buy it from the Black Market deck.

[Davio]

In the "Talisman with Sir Martin" thread it was ruled by Donald X. that you could gain a Silver with Trader off the "first copy of Sir Martin that you were about to gain with Talisman". You "would gain" this imaginary copy before the actual Sir Martin you are buying. And then you could get another Silver or the regular Sir Martin which is still there the second time around. I.e. there doesn't have to be an actual physical copy of the card in the supply for Talisman to activate before the regular gain.

Now it's interesting to ask if this also works with BM because as specified, regular gains work with the regular supply.

The timing would be something like this:

• Buy a Treasure Map or whatever from the BM deck (note that you have not gained anything yet at this point)
• Talisman activates and wants to gain a copy of the card and the possible rulings present us with two choices:
  
  • It wants to gain from the same source (the BM deck), it still can since the copy is there and you can pull off the same Trader trick as with Sir Martin
  • It wants to gain from the supply and it fizzles since there is no Treasure Map in the supply
• Your regular would-gain of the Treasure Map off your buy now activates and you can do with it what you want, reveal Trader or not

I think the second choice is the right one.

[eHalcyon]

Only if there's a copy of that card in the supply. Gains always come from the supply unless specified otherwise.

This is a bit confusing/misleading, since there can't ever be a copy of that card in the supply.

Not yet. But maybe a card in Guilds allows this.

How? The Black Market cards has its own rules that it comes with. And they specifically say that you make up the Black Market deck with cards that aren't being used in this game... no future card or rule is every going to completely contradict or change that rule of Black Market.

There could be, for example, a card in Guilds that tells you to randomly choose 2 cards not in the supply and add 5 copies of them to the supply, shuffled into a single pile. If the BM deck is made first, there could be overlap.

[GendoIkari]

Only if there's a copy of that card in the supply. Gains always come from the supply unless specified otherwise.

This is a bit confusing/misleading, since there can't ever be a copy of that card in the supply.

Not yet. But maybe a card in Guilds allows this.

How? The Black Market cards has its own rules that it comes with. And they specifically say that you make up the Black Market deck with cards that aren't being used in this game... no future card or rule is every going to completely contradict or change that rule of Black Market.

There could be, for example, a card in Guilds that tells you to randomly choose 2 cards not in the supply and add 5 copies of them to the supply, shuffled into a single pile. If the BM deck is made first, there could be overlap.

I just don't see it. Anything else even remotely Black Market-like would be far too convoluted and lead to possible rules confusion with Black Market. I know that "anything's possible", but I think it's much better to be realistic when dealing with a rules thread. Mentioning how possible future cards that don't currently exist could change the ruling on a card currently just leads to confusion. It's like if someone asked "when you play a Moat, do you draw 2 cards from the top of your deck?" and someone answered "yes, unless you are playing with a card that says "when you would draw a card from the top of your deck, you may draw from your discard pile instead."

[eHalcyon]

Only if there's a copy of that card in the supply. Gains always come from the supply unless specified otherwise.

This is a bit confusing/misleading, since there can't ever be a copy of that card in the supply.

Not yet. But maybe a card in Guilds allows this.

How? The Black Market cards has its own rules that it comes with. And they specifically say that you make up the Black Market deck with cards that aren't being used in this game... no future card or rule is every going to completely contradict or change that rule of Black Market.

There could be, for example, a card in Guilds that tells you to randomly choose 2 cards not in the supply and add 5 copies of them to the supply, shuffled into a single pile. If the BM deck is made first, there could be overlap.

I just don't see it. Anything else even remotely Black Market-like would be far too convoluted and lead to possible rules confusion with Black Market. I know that "anything's possible", but I think it's much better to be realistic when dealing with a rules thread. Mentioning how possible future cards that don't currently exist could change the ruling on a card currently just leads to confusion. It's like if someone asked "when you play a Moat, do you draw 2 cards from the top of your deck?" and someone answered "yes, unless you are playing with a card that says "when you would draw a card from the top of your deck, you may draw from your discard pile instead."

Oh, I agree entirely with all of this.  I really doubt any new card will infringe on Black Market's niche, and speculation on this front is better served in the speculation forums, not in a rules clarification thread.  But it was brought up, so....

[Watno]

To clarify: my comment wasn't serious.

[KingZog3]

I highly doubt that Guilds will compromise the rules of Black Market. What would such a card look like?
~~~~~ $3 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$1
When you play this, cards in the Black Market deck are cards in the supply.

Seems like a waste of card to me.

This won't be a card, nor will any card ever be like this because you can't assume players have the other expansions or promo cards. In the same way there won't be any more Looter cards, unless Ruins are supplied in other sets. Expansions are self-contained and don't reference directly other cards, unless they are base cards like curses or coppers and such.

[Morgrim7]

I highly doubt that Guilds will compromise the rules of Black Market. What would such a card look like?
~~~~~ $3 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$1
When you play this, cards in the Black Market deck are cards in the supply.

Seems like a waste of card to me.

This won't be a card, nor will any card ever be like this because you can't assume players have the other expansions or promo cards. In the same way there won't be any more Looter cards, unless Ruins are supplied in other sets. Expansions are self-contained and don't reference directly other cards, unless they are base cards like curses or coppers and such.

Yes, exactly. This card will never exist, and I doubt that any card with that mechanic will ever exist.

[elahrairah13]

In the "Talisman with Sir Martin" thread it was ruled by Donald X. that you could gain a Silver with Trader off the "first copy of Sir Martin that you were about to gain with Talisman". You "would gain" this imaginary copy before the actual Sir Martin you are buying. And then you could get another Silver or the regular Sir Martin which is still there the second time around. I.e. there doesn't have to be an actual physical copy of the card in the supply for Talisman to activate before the regular gain.

Now it's interesting to ask if this also works with BM because as specified, regular gains work with the regular supply.

The timing would be something like this:

• Buy a Treasure Map or whatever from the BM deck (note that you have not gained anything yet at this point)
• Talisman activates and wants to gain a copy of the card and the possible rulings present us with two choices:
  
  • It wants to gain from the same source (the BM deck), it still can since the copy is there and you can pull off the same Trader trick as with Sir Martin
  • It wants to gain from the supply and it fizzles since there is no Treasure Map in the supply
• Your regular would-gain of the Treasure Map off your buy now activates and you can do with it what you want, reveal Trader or not

I think the second choice is the right one.

Since the Talisman card text doesn't refer to "the supply" at all, I don't see why you couldn't do the same Trader trick with a black market deck card that you do with the Knights (use Trader to gain a silver on the copy first, then gain the card you chose to buy)

edited to add: wrong! I am corrected below.

[eHalcyon]

It's because the default place to gain from is the supply. Talisman doesn't specify, but that's where it looks. I also think it may be in the rule book, even though it's not on the card.

[GendoIkari]

It's because the default place to gain from is the supply. Talisman doesn't specify, but that's where it looks. I also think it may be in the rule book, even though it's not on the card.

It's definitely in the rule book. The word "gain" in Dominion always means "gain from the supply" unless it's immediately follow with "from ____" specifying a different place.

So when you buy a card from the Black Market, with Talisman in play, you can't reveal trader to the "would gain a copy of", because there never is a time that you would gain a copy of it.

[Davio]

I suspect this is the right ruling, but I've been surprised before.

[shMerker]

First of all the FAQ on Talisman in the Prosperity rulebook explicitly states that it gains from the supply.

Secondly there was this thread which was mainly about the case of gaining knights using Sir Martin, but the black market case came up too. Donald X. didn't directly post about the Black Market issue but he also didn't contradict any of the people who said that Talisman will not gain anything (or even would gain anything to trigger Trader) when you buy something from the Black Market because there will never be something in the supply that is also available there.