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Author Topic: Talisman + Sir Martin  (Read 10698 times)

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Saposhiente

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Talisman + Sir Martin
« on: January 04, 2013, 05:08:01 pm »
+1

What happens when you have a Talisman in play and you buy Sir Martin? Do you first gain the copy and then buy whichever knight is below it if you have enough money? Does Talisman not work at all because two different Knights are not "copies" (also meaning that Menagerie and Fairgrounds synergize with knights)? What if you buy a $5 knight with Talisman in play and the next knight revealed is Sir Martin? Does Dame Josephine change any of this?
Also there's a typo in the rulebook for Knights: It says that Sir Martin costs $1 instead of $5.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 05:09:47 pm by Saposhiente »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 05:14:42 pm »
+3

The Knights are all differently named, so they do indeed synergize with Menagerie and Fairgrounds, as well as Harvest.

I don't remember hearing a specific ruling on this, but I expect that Talisman would not ever gain you an additional Knight.  Let's simplify the question by playing a Highway first, so that all Knights cost $4 or less.

With Highway and Talisman in play, you buy Sir Martin.  Talisman says that you when you buy a card costing $4 or less, you gain a copy of it.  So now you gain a copy of Sir Martin via Talisman.  Now that that's taken care of, you should gain the copy of Sir Martin that you bought.  But Sir Martin has already been gained and now the top Knight is Dame Natalie!  There is no longer a copy of Sir Martin to gain, so that's the end of it.

(Dame Josephine changes it slightly in that, if Dame Josephine is the card you are trying to buy -with Highway in play- you would gain her through the Buy and not through Talisman.)

A similar thing should happen with Ruins, if you are so inclined to buy Ruins.  If you buy a Ruined Village with Talisman in play, you will only get two Ruins if the next one is also a Ruined Village.  If it is an Abandoned Mine, you only get the first Ruined Village.

I DO recall an official ruling about Ruins with Ambassador that follows this principle as well.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 05:16:05 pm by eHalcyon »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 05:18:24 pm »
+2

What if I buy Sir Martin with Talisman in play and Trader in hand? Can I reveal Trader to gain a silver when I would gain the Sir Martin (from Talisman), and then finish buying and gaining Sir Martin?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 05:23:33 pm »
0

What if I buy Sir Martin with Talisman in play and Trader in hand? Can I reveal Trader to gain a silver when I would gain the Sir Martin (from Talisman), and then finish buying and gaining Sir Martin?

Ooh.  I would say yes.  But that's getting crazy enough that I am not confident.
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ednever

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 06:32:50 pm »
0

What if I buy Sir Martin with Talisman in play and Trader in hand? Can I reveal Trader to gain a silver when I would gain the Sir Martin (from Talisman), and then finish buying and gaining Sir Martin?

Ooh.  I would say yes.  But that's getting crazy enough that I am not confident.

I think that's right. Pretty cool.

Talisman gains you a copy of a card you bought (sir M). Trader gains you a silver instead of the card you would have gained (in this case from the buy)

So:
Buy sir M
Gain a second Sir M
Gain Sir M, replace with Silver
Gain sir M (still available in the stack)

I think that's right. It all depends on the order you activate that cards.
Key is talisman first, then Trader.

Ed
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DG

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 07:44:09 pm »
0

I would say that you resolve the on-buy effects first, that would be gaining another Sir Martin for each talisman in play. There are no more Sir Martins in the supply so that has no effect. Once all on-buy effects are resolved you would then resolve the on-gain effects from the trader, replacing your bought Sir Martin with a silver if you so desired.
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jonts26

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 07:56:20 pm »
0

I would say that you resolve the on-buy effects first, that would be gaining another Sir Martin for each talisman in play. There are no more Sir Martins in the supply so that has no effect. Once all on-buy effects are resolved you would then resolve the on-gain effects from the trader, replacing your bought Sir Martin with a silver if you so desired.

No, I'm pretty sure ed has it right. You do resolve the on buy effect of talisman first. It just so happens that effect tells you to gain a card. So you gain that. And then trader resolves whenever a card is gained, so you can turn it into a silver and then proceed to gain the original bought copy of sir martin.
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DG

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 08:16:05 pm »
0

 
Quote
You do resolve the on buy effect of talisman first. It just so happens that effect tells you to gain a card. So you gain that.

So you are in effect saying that even though you have bought the original Sir Martin it is still in the supply until it is gained? I have a bad feeling that might open up a cans of worms somewhere.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 08:28:48 pm by DG »
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jonts26

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 08:20:09 pm »
+1

Except there is a card to gain. You are about to gain sir martin, silver is gained instead. Then you go to gain the original sir martin and, well, there it is. Go get it.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2013, 08:56:01 pm »
+1

The question is, after the original Sir Martin is bought, is it still in the supply for talisman to try to gain, or is it in some limbo land where it's not in the supply anymore, but hasn't been gained yet?

Logic tells me it would be in the supply, but my gut says limbo land. And I tend to go with gut here.

Both tell me we want Donald to clarify this zany scenario.

Rabid

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2013, 09:01:56 pm »
+1

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Donald X.

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2013, 09:59:08 pm »
+1

The question is, after the original Sir Martin is bought, is it still in the supply for talisman to try to gain, or is it in some limbo land where it's not in the supply anymore, but hasn't been gained yet?

Logic tells me it would be in the supply, but my gut says limbo land. And I tend to go with gut here.

Both tell me we want Donald to clarify this zany scenario.
For the moment (hopefully a neverending moment) let us say that it is still in the supply.

Buying a card means paying for it. Again think of it in terms of Amazon. You buy a CD. It's still in their warehouse. They'll get around to shipping it to you eventually. When you buy a card you then gain it, but Trader and Possession mess with that. You can buy Sir Martin with Talisman in play and Trader in hand, take a Silver instead, then take Sir Martin (or another Silver).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2013, 10:18:59 pm »
0

The question is, after the original Sir Martin is bought, is it still in the supply for talisman to try to gain, or is it in some limbo land where it's not in the supply anymore, but hasn't been gained yet?

Logic tells me it would be in the supply, but my gut says limbo land. And I tend to go with gut here.

Both tell me we want Donald to clarify this zany scenario.
For the moment (hopefully a neverending moment) let us say that it is still in the supply.

Buying a card means paying for it. Again think of it in terms of Amazon. You buy a CD. It's still in their warehouse. They'll get around to shipping it to you eventually. When you buy a card you then gain it, but Trader and Possession mess with that. You can buy Sir Martin with Talisman in play and Trader in hand, take a Silver instead, then take Sir Martin (or another Silver).

It seems to me that this is equivalent to what would happen if you talisman buy the last card in a stack - say the last talisman, since that will always be around. But why your answer doesn't make sense to my intuition is precisely BECAUSE of the analogy you point out. If I order the last copy of the Star Wars soundtrack that they have in their warehouse, they aren't going to give a second copy out afterwards, even if that has an express rush delivery on it; they set aside that copy for me, because I've bought it, even if they haven't given it to me yet (so I haven't gained it). This is why I imagine a magical set-aside-for-you-because-you-bought-it land, no longer in the supply, even before you gain the card, but which trader and possession can mess with. Of course, your answer does seem totally consistent with the rules of the game, just not with my intuition about things.

Donald X.

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2013, 10:57:42 pm »
+5

It seems to me that this is equivalent to what would happen if you talisman buy the last card in a stack - say the last talisman, since that will always be around. But why your answer doesn't make sense to my intuition is precisely BECAUSE of the analogy you point out. If I order the last copy of the Star Wars soundtrack that they have in their warehouse, they aren't going to give a second copy out afterwards, even if that has an express rush delivery on it; they set aside that copy for me, because I've bought it, even if they haven't given it to me yet (so I haven't gained it). This is why I imagine a magical set-aside-for-you-because-you-bought-it land, no longer in the supply, even before you gain the card, but which trader and possession can mess with. Of course, your answer does seem totally consistent with the rules of the game, just not with my intuition about things.
The talisman is *magic*.

The intention was just that Talisman got you an extra copy of whatever. I didn't think through that it actually got you its copy before you got the original, but I have to go by what the cards say, and that's what it says.
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Davio

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2013, 03:04:46 am »
0

The question is, after the original Sir Martin is bought, is it still in the supply for talisman to try to gain, or is it in some limbo land where it's not in the supply anymore, but hasn't been gained yet?

Logic tells me it would be in the supply, but my gut says limbo land. And I tend to go with gut here.

Both tell me we want Donald to clarify this zany scenario.
For the moment (hopefully a neverending moment) let us say that it is still in the supply.

Buying a card means paying for it. Again think of it in terms of Amazon. You buy a CD. It's still in their warehouse. They'll get around to shipping it to you eventually. When you buy a card you then gain it, but Trader and Possession mess with that. You can buy Sir Martin with Talisman in play and Trader in hand, take a Silver instead, then take Sir Martin (or another Silver).
Okay, I find this very odd.

On buying Sir Martin, Talisman activates and tries to give you a copy, but it doesn't find one. How can you get two Silvers here?

Like WW said: When you buy the last Village and Talisman activates, you don't get an extra non-existing Village which you could turn into a Silver right?

I would expect that Talisman only works on copies that are actually there.
Trader works on "would gain", but it's very odd that you would gain a copy of Sir Martin which doesn't exist. You would gain nothing, so you can't get Silver instead.

Look at Ruins: This ruling would mean that you could always get two Silvers with Trader and Talisman if you buy the top Ruins. But that's so counter intuitive. I mean, the way I would solve it is this:

- You name the top Ruins as the card you want to buy
- Talisman's on-buy event triggers first and you turn over the next Ruins to see what it is
--- If it's the same as the top one, you would gain it and can choose whether to reveal Trader
--- If it's not, it's not a copy and you can't gain it
- You now would gain the top Ruins as that's the one you originally bought
- You can choose whether to reveal Trader to get a Silver instead of the top Ruins
- Whatever you do, make sure that at the end of your turn only the top Ruins is face up

Ambassador has some rules clarifications in the Dark Ages manual on revealing the top Ruins, so I would expect this to work for Talisman as well...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 03:06:30 am by Davio »
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Donald X.

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2013, 03:08:50 am »
+1

Okay, I find this very odd.

On buying Sir Martin, Talisman activates and tries to give you a copy, but it doesn't find one. How can you get two Silvers here?
I am just interpreting the cards as written. I can't change them, counterintuitive or not.

Talisman's when-buy triggers *before* you gain the card due to buying it. This causes you to gain a copy of the card, right then. You reveal Trader and gain Silver instead. Now it's time to gain your normal copy of the card due to buying it. You reveal Trader and gain Silver instead.
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shMerker

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2013, 03:32:33 am »
0

This is not, by the way, the way it's implemented on Iso, unless I'm missing something different about other cases of single copies such as Black Market. Here's a log where I had Trader, Talisman, and Black Market in play.

Quote
shMerker's turn 13
shMerker plays a Black Market.
... getting +$2.
... drawing a Hunting Party, a Stash, and a Remodel from the Black Market deck.
... playing a Talisman.
... playing a Copper.
... shMerker buys a Remodel.
... ... shMerker reveals a Trader to gain a Silver instead of a Remodel.
... ... shMerker gains a Silver.
... returning a Hunting Party and a Stash to the bottom of the Black Market deck.
(shMerker reshuffles.)
(shMerker draws: 2 Estates, a Black Market, and 2 Coppers.)

Quote
shMerker's turn 40
shMerker plays a Talisman.
shMerker buys a Curse.
... shMerker reveals a Trader to gain a Silver instead of a Curse.
... shMerker gains a Silver.
(shMerker reshuffles.)
(shMerker draws: 2 Estates, a Black Market, a Silver, and a Trader.)

If I'm understanding correctly then both of those purchases should have resulted in gaining a silver and then gaining the card originally purchased (after being prompted to reveal Trader again of course) but instead only the silver was gained.
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Davio

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2013, 05:10:26 am »
0

Okay, I find this very odd.

On buying Sir Martin, Talisman activates and tries to give you a copy, but it doesn't find one. How can you get two Silvers here?
I am just interpreting the cards as written. I can't change them, counterintuitive or not.

Talisman's when-buy triggers *before* you gain the card due to buying it. This causes you to gain a copy of the card, right then. You reveal Trader and gain Silver instead. Now it's time to gain your normal copy of the card due to buying it. You reveal Trader and gain Silver instead.
I know we can't change what's written on the cards.

But I'm having issues with the word "copy".
I guess it boils down to: Can you still gain a copy of a singleton card?

You're saying you can, I'm saying you can't.
Obviously you're the designer so if you say you can I'm not going to house rule otherwise.

But the problem with saying you can is that you can extrapolate this into supply piles with only one card remaining. You're saying you can reveal Trader before you would gain a card that may or may not exist. Only after you chose to reveal Trader or not you find out: Darn, there's no actual copy of the card! I'm saying that you can only reveal Trader when you would gain an actual physical card.

Look at Trader instead of Talisman then: It says "When you would gain a card". For me this means that there must be an actual card that's hoping to be gained, not just a ghost card.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 05:14:07 am by Davio »
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Donald X.

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2013, 05:41:30 am »
+2

But I'm having issues with the word "copy".
I guess it boils down to: Can you still gain a copy of a singleton card?
You can if the singleton is still there when this effect is resolving; you can gain the singleton.

An example: I use Altar to gain Dame Natalie, then draw my deck, and Ambassador Dame Natalie back to the supply. You have Lighthouse in play so Dame Natalie stays in the supply. On your turn you play Smugglers and gain Dame Natalie.

You're saying you can reveal Trader before you would gain a card that may or may not exist.
No. I have said no such thing.

When you choose what to buy, you have to pick a card you can actually buy - it has to be in the supply (if not from Black Market) and you have to be able to afford it.

When it's time to gain the card you bought, you gain it if you can.

Look at Trader instead of Talisman then: It says "When you would gain a card". For me this means that there must be an actual card that's hoping to be gained, not just a ghost card.
There must be an actual card, and in the example we have been talking about there always is.

I buy Sir Martin. I have Talisman in play. It triggers and says gain a copy of that. I can because there's one in the supply. There's one right there. Only I use Trader to instead gain Silver, leaving Sir Martin in the supply.

Now we are finished with the Talisman's effect; it's time to gain Sir Martin due to me buying it. I can; there's one right there. I can also use Trader to instead gain Silver.

If you are not about to gain a card then you may not use Trader. For example, if I play Witch with no Curses left, you cannot use Trader to gain a Silver there.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 05:42:35 am by Donald X. »
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Rabid

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 06:00:35 am »
0

The ruling makes sense to me.
It looks like we have a bug in Isotropic though.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/05/game-20130105-024323-af26e519.html
Code: [Select]
Rabid's turn 12
Rabid plays a Talisman.
Rabid plays a Copper.
Rabid buys an Embargo.
... Rabid reveals a Trader to gain a Silver instead of an Embargo.
... Rabid gains a Silver.
(Rabid reshuffles.)
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Dominionaer

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2013, 09:58:56 am »
0

It looks like we have a bug in Isotropic though.
No bug. The bought card is just not mentioned again as gained in the log, but is in your discard. But your log looks curious. it should read
... gaining another Embargo
before you could reveal the Trader for the first time (for the gained-for-Talisman)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 10:04:34 am by Dominionaer »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2013, 10:03:48 am »
0

It looks like we have a bug in Isotropic though.
No bug. The bought card is just not mentioned again as gained in the log, but is in your discard.
No, it's definitely a bug. I just did it, too. Normally, extra gains show up like this:
Your turn 9
You play a Copper.
You play a Talisman.
You play a Talisman.
You buy an Embargo.
... You gain another Embargo.
... You gain another Embargo.
(You reshuffle.)

Here, that isn't the case.
Although, it does normally let you trader the second embargo before the first one, as it should.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/05/game-20130105-070334-a13a135c.html

Dominionaer

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2013, 10:18:16 am »
0

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/05/game-20130105-024323-af26e519.html
I found the source of confusion ( your "bug" ) : You bought the last Embargo! The log seems to be different for this case, but the number of cards is correct!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2013, 10:24:55 am »
+1

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/05/game-20130105-024323-af26e519.html
I found the source of confusion ( your "bug" ) : You bought the last Embargo! The log seems to be different for this case, but the number of cards is correct!
That's the whole point! Read the rest of the thread - you are supposed to be able to gain a silver AND the bought card in this case.

Davio

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Re: Talisman + Sir Martin
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2013, 10:45:59 am »
0

Donald, as per your explanation this would mean that you can always gain two cards with Trader and Talisman even if the card you are about to buy is the last one in the supply.

Let's assume there is only one Village left.

I have $3 with Talisman in play and I say:
- I will buy that Village
-- Now Talisman's on-buy effect triggers and it wants to gain a Village
-- I can gain a Village, since it's right there in the pile
-- However, I reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead
- Now I am about to gain the actual last Village, which I can since it's still there
- I can choose to reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead

This way, you can "abuse" the last card in the pile to gain 2 Silvers every time you have Trader and Talisman. It probably is an issue for some other cards as well or might be for some upcoming cards, but it's easiest to focus on Trader and Talisman for the time being.

The problem I have with this ruling is that Talisman is trying to gain a copy of a card for which you know in advance that there is only one copy. I read earlier about Talisman that you gain the copy ahead of the original card due to the way that Talisman interferes.

So Talisman will always successfully find a "copy" even though there may only be a singleton and then the original buy bounces because hey, Talisman already took the "copy".

It's just the word "copy" that's causing me headaches, it makes me think that there must be at least two of something, an original and its copy.
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