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[faust]

I am also not necessarily set on lynching off-wagon. But I don't see a good on-wagon case. Walrus? I'm not convinced. Don't think there was a case on anyone else.

[jotheonah]

Out of everyone, I like a vote: yuma best. I found his reasoning for a D1 no-lynch already scummy D1, and now with Archetype's flip he's even more suspicious. Plus, he tried to argue against an off-wagon lynch, which seems like a self-preservation move. Add some POE: I think we should lynch off-wagon. Who is there?

EFHW - IC
chairs - tree stump
Archetype - dead scum
ashersky - my strongest town read at this point
pingpongsam - somewhat suspicious, but did a part claim (he has information about missing NKs), so I'm willing to keep him alive

The only one remaining is yuma.

I still think your reasoning for finding my suggesting a no-lynch to be scummy is invalid (sure the fact that arch flipped scum changes some stuff I admit, but I have already addressed that above, which you apparently countered with a "but this is yuma we're talking about, to which I really can't say anything...)

But if you are dead set on lynching off-wagon then sure the first three I follow you.

Ashersky is your strongest town read? Why? What separates me from him? You don't really say. Or at least I have no memory of you saying
PPS gets off because he partially claimed? OK: I'll partially claim something too... I targeted a player last night and I also have information about the setup! Do I get a pass now? Needless to say, PPS partially claiming something is a horrible reason to give a pass.

And like I said before take a look at Bankers Mafia and MXI--I was there you weren't so either look it up or take my word for it--in both games mafia was lynched day1 and in the first we lost because we assumed scum wouldn't be on wagon and in the second we almost lost because of it (the player lynched at lylo was mafia who bussed day1).

Well, I might be convinced on PPS, but for that someone needs to point out how his actions are scummy. Ashersky is a town read for me yes, and I do not believe that saying why would benefit town.

several things. PPS advocated a policy lynch on Galzria AND no lynch while the Archetype wagon was building up steam. Also several times yesterday he questioned the Archetype lynch, tried to talk people off of it, and said it was a scum lynch. I think if you re-read PPS's day 1 you'll see there's a significant case.

But I'd really like to hear morte people's thoughts on ashersky. Day 1, a lot of you were willing to lynch him and disbelieving of his claim. Above, I point out that his interactions with Archetype (or lack thereof) are quite in keeping with them being partners. Yet today, it's all about Walrus and me. I don't want to lynch a town enabler, but I also don't want to keep giving a scum fakeclaim a free pass.

[EFHW]

Here is a summary of pps – warning: post numbers may be off by 1.  I strong suggest following all the links to quotes, since some of the more lengthy or significant posts I didn’t want try to to summarize.  I've tried to stay factual, pps should correct anything I may have inadvertently misrepresented.  I'll work on other off wagon players tomorrow.

Re ashersky
92, 129 and 132 Supports Ash’s claim – “provides leverage against scum”, “so what’s the problem?”,   “great Day 1 play”.  133 understands faust voting Archetype for attacking ashersky  155 changes his position after I disagree, explain, and say he and others are illogical.  189  We should lynch ashersky unless he enables time-travel.  265 maybe ash’s claim was “a scum ploy to try to control the game”.

re: Archetype
129  Doesn’t understand Jimmmmmm’s or faust’s votes on Archetype.  133 challenges Jimmmmm’s Arch vote, understands faust’s (see above).  189  Thinks examination of Arch wagon will reveal scum.  207-9  challenges xeiron’s Arch vote, thinks xeiron claimed it was RVS and counters that.   217  Responds to my question re: difference between faust’s and xeiron’s Arch votes.  223  further criticizes x’s arch vote, not faust’s.  265 questions convenience of Arch’s VLA, but has town read.  334 says it’s a “low blow” to vote against Arch b/c of VLA.  437  Walrus’s Arch vote was “weakly flailing”  497  doesn’t support Arch lynch.  557, 559  asks Arch for twilight reveal of his role.  566 maybe we got a “lucky lynch”.  768 Defends his support of Arch and being off-wagon

re: reads: 265

re: SK possibility
269, 278 responds with interest to chairs’ 267 comment that sudgy reminds him of sk!sudgy in another game.  305  voted sudgy b/c fits SK idea, not because of claim.  326  FOS on chairs for not responding to requests for elaboration about SK comment.  333  responds to faust’s 328 saying focus on 3rd party is scummy. 

re: sudgy
265 v. sudgy b/c of vote hopping and sheeping (before weak claim; doesn’t mention SK).  305 Says voted sudgy for fitting SK model, not for his claim. 367 comfortable with vote on sudgy    368 sudgy challenges pps’s criticism of him.  369  I had trouble following this post, so I’ll just quote it.  437 “sick to death of ‘not me, I claimed’”  689

re: Galzria/yuma
265 null read.  352 requests prod on Galzria – should we policy lynch?  357  Defends himself against accusation by Joth that he is “pushing” policy lynch.  423 “warming up to idea of Galzria policy lynch” 448 “eagerly awaiting input from yuma”  452 yuma has pass. 

re: no lynch
333 if everyone claims, we’ll end up with a no lynch because claimants get passes.  353 concerned about no lynch.  421 will we be able to get 8 votes?  491 yuma brings up no lynch idea  497 merit to the no lynch idea.  Would vote xeiron to avoid no lynch, but maybe no lynch is ok, “considering we are statistically more likely to lynch one of our own day 1.”  Solicits discussion of the question.  500  scum prefer non-reversible events, suggesting scum would not want no lynch.  511   516 clarifies Jimmmmm’s comment that no lynch gives less information for Day 2.

re: Walrus
265 nkirbit’s Walrus vote was OMGUS.  “a testy feud”.  437 re: claim  497 favors Walrus vote.  689 thinks sudgy died from his weak modifier (implicates Walrus).  768  Walrus discussion is a distraction (echoing my 752). 

re: his own play
140 defends against criticism from Joth.  357, 362 defends against criticism from Joth.  385  Defends against criticism from faust.  421 “I’ve been observing and will be active town”  768 responds to criticism from Joth, already quoted above.

[yuma]

Ashersky is a town read for me yes, and I do not believe that saying why would benefit town.

It looks to me that you kinda already did

[pingpongsam]

305  voted sudgy b/c fits SK idea, not because of claim.

I never voted sudgy for fitting the SK theme. A) chairs never backed up his comments in that regard and B) I emphatically stated I was voting him for his vote pattern and general trend. That he might be an SK was strictly circumstantial to my vote but kept me interested.

thinks sudgy died from his weak modifier (implicates Walrus).

I did not intend to implicate Walrus nor was I led me to believe sudgy died from his targeting. I stated that my information supported the notion, that is, it didn't disprove it. Later I stated that my information supports too many possibilities to draw any decisive conclusions. Your interpretation here would be scummy if it weren't for you being IC because I am carefully trying to present my information without giving scum the upper hand here. You turning it into me implicating or taking de facto positions on what happened last night is conflating the facts with an assumed agenda.

Other than that I agree with the rest of the reads.

[EFHW]

thanks for the clarifications.

[faust]

Ashersky is a town read for me yes, and I do not believe that saying why would benefit town.

It looks to me that you kinda already did

If you say so.

[faust]

jotheonah, can you tell me how this:

Faust restarted the arche wagon in a way that makes him obv town to me.

fits with this:

neutral lynches today:
2.71
faust

[jotheonah]

jotheonah, can you tell me how this:

Faust restarted the arche wagon in a way that makes him obv town to me.

fits with this:

neutral lynches today:
2.71
faust

Bad memory. Sorry, a lot of new screen names (to me) in this town, and I missed that when I was reading back. You're officially upgraded to "bad lynch"

[faust]

I reread yuma, and in this second read he didn't seem all that scummy to me. The no-lynch is a weird idea, but I can see the reasoning behind it. It would be a pretty bold move by mafia to propose a no-lynch. There's some inconsistency with yuma advocating no-lynch and then later voting for people, but inconsistency is a sign of town rather than scum. He might still be scum of course, but now I have seen the summary of pps' actions, and see much more scumminess there:

- he defends Archetype strongly
- he wants to lynch ashersky
- he does some SK hunting
- he wants to policy lynch Galzria/yuma

The policy lynch thing is interesting, because would scum pull that on their partner? I think there's only one scum among pps and yuma. I also think there is exactly one scum among them. Right now a am leaning towards pps, so vote: pingpongsam

[faust]

I'll also give an updated reads list.

Walrus - I agree that he still could be scum. I am leaning towards believing him right now though, at least I'd like to let him live till D3.

Jimmmmm - most notable is that he voted Archetype very early D1 and never changed his vote afterwards. Maybe town with a good read, maybe scum realizing it was too late to back out of his bussing. There's also really little overall content. If we decide to lynch on-wagon, he's a good choice I think.

xeiron - hammered Archetype, which I don't think earns him many town points. Before that pushed the alternative Walrus wagon. Pretty null to me.

ashersky - I am fairly convinced that he is town, as said before.

Galzria/yuma - as explained above, I still find him scummy to an extent, but not as much as pps.

e - not as active as I am used to. His position on the Archetype wagon makes me think he's town though.

pingpongsam - scummy. See above.

nkirbit - my second-highest town read. He already read townie to me D1, and his position on the Arch wagon strengthens that read.

jotheonah - slight town read here. He really pushes the game along. We don't agree much, but that's also more of a town tell.

[jotheonah]

faust and I disagree on a lot of things, but we agree on pps.

My hesitancy comes from the fact that I too was a vocal not-fan of the Archetype lynch, and it seems hypocritical to lynch pps for the same crime. But re-reading day 1 showed me that his defending of Archetype was really in a different league than mine. So I think I'm good with

vote: pingpongsam

[Voltaire]

Vote Count 2.5

jotheonah (3): nkirbit, yuma, 2.71828.....
Walrus (1): ashersky
ashersky (1): Walrus
pingpongsam (2): faust, jotheonah

Not voting (4): EFHW, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, xeiron

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

D2 ends on Monday, January 6 at noon forum time

[pingpongsam]

I think my lynch will be informative for town but I also know that I am town and scum can't resist pushing such an easy D2 lynch because of my positions D1. As much as it may appear to be OMGUS, it's actually logical deduction as to who is the scum operative working my angle. Vote: Jotheonah.

[EFHW]

That's L-2

[faust]

I think my lynch will be informative for town but I also know that I am town and scum can't resist pushing such an easy D2 lynch because of my positions D1. As much as it may appear to be OMGUS, it's actually logical deduction as to who is the scum operative working my angle. Vote: Jotheonah.

Well, what's the case against jotheonah apart from OMGUS?

[jotheonah]

That's L-2

I claim at your bidding, IC.

[pingpongsam]

I think my lynch will be informative for town but I also know that I am town and scum can't resist pushing such an easy D2 lynch because of my positions D1. As much as it may appear to be OMGUS, it's actually logical deduction as to who is the scum operative working my angle. Vote: Jotheonah.

Well, what's the case against jotheonah apart from OMGUS?

Well, more or less the same case he uses against me with regards to the D1 Archetype lynch except for the part where he played exactly as I outlined that I would have were I Archetype's scum partner.

[pingpongsam]

Also, there's some subtle twisting of a whole other aspect of this engagement that I suspect Jotheonah of withholding information on at this point in the game.

I will at least admit that I hold information that I am delaying the release of for the sake of Town. I have good reason to believe Jo is withholding to the detriment of Town; specifically to get a certain role to out itself.

[faust]

Also, there's some subtle twisting of a whole other aspect of this engagement that I suspect Jotheonah of withholding information on at this point in the game.

I will at least admit that I hold information that I am delaying the release of for the sake of Town. I have good reason to believe Jo is withholding to the detriment of Town; specifically to get a certain role to out itself.

Everyone here is withholding information I think. I don't know what your reason is to think jotheonah's withholding is detrimental to town, and as long as as I don't, I can't follow your case here.

[jotheonah]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I am withholding something only because it's completely useless to town and can't be revealed without me claiming.

[pingpongsam]

I will reveal that I know in a most interesting proxy way that a kill attempt failed on a specific Town PR last night. I'd like to see Jo's claim before I reveal anything further. If, as I beleive, Jo was responsible for the attempt then he needs to be lynched to protect the identity of the Town PR.

[jotheonah]

Ok, I am seeing the potential confusion here and I'm thinking maybe I'd better claim.

pps, you watched sudgy, yes? And you saw that I targeted him? is that where we are?

[jotheonah]

You don't have to answer that actually. I targeted sudgy with an investigative power. Did not learn anything that wasn't revealed in the flip. But I hadn't considered that someone might be watching me.

My rationale was that it would be useful if sudgy DID survive the night.

[faust]

You don't have to answer that actually. I targeted sudgy with an investigative power. Did not learn anything that wasn't revealed in the flip. But I hadn't considered that someone might be watching me.

My rationale was that it would be useful if sudgy DID survive the night.

What kind of investigative power was that?