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[pooka]

Let in the next alternate.  I'm just level 0.
Oh, the bracket is set.  Leave it be.

[pst]

This filled up right quick.

Yep, why so small tourney?

(Didn't read about it until just now.)

[Thisisnotasmile]

This filled up right quick.

Yep, why so small tourney?

(Didn't read about it until just now.)

I doubt MMM expected so much interest. I've only ever seen 2 or 3 of the participants actually contribute to this forum before. Most of the people I expected to enter haven't even posted here yet, either because they are not interested because of *something*, or because it filled up too quick and they missed out.

[KristianBahle]

Tourneys sounds fun, I'll join next one if I am quick enough, hf

[Mean Mr Mustard]

I wanted to keep it small, hoping to ensure that all the participants actually play their games.

[Stick In The Mud]

I would like to play, if there is room?

[Davio]

I have a rules question.

On Isotropic, going first can be manipulated by losing the previous match I think.
And surely if players play multiple times against each other, this is awkward.

If there would be some way to fairly decide who goes first (like a non weighted coin toss) and just alternate each game.

The rules dictate that players can decide however they want, but maybe there's an easy fix.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

To my knowledge there is no way to choose player position on Isotropic, so is this not moot?

[Thisisnotasmile]

If you have just lost a game and your opponent has either just won a game, or has just entered the lobby, you will go first. Otherwise it is random.

[Buggz]

Sounds like an edge case to me. If you're playing your opponent in a tournament you'll most probably do all the games concurrently, and over a best of 5 it'll even out. So what if your opponent happens to start the first game?

[DStu]

Sounds like an edge case to me. If you're playing your opponent in a tournament you'll most probably do all the games concurrently, and over a best of 5 it'll even out. So what if your opponent happens to start the first game?

As 5 is not even, it will not even out. Especially if it ends 3:2 or 2:3, you will have started 3 times when you start the first game. If you don't just 2 times.

[Buggz]

So, the only case where it won't even out is when you're actually playing all 5 games (if you're done after 3 games, you've lost at least two games you've started). Over that many hands shuffle luck has more to say than who gets first turn.

[WanderingWinder]

No, it will only even out if the games alternate in order of who wins them. If I start second and win the first game, I'll be second the next game as well, and second the next game after that if I lose again, and so on and so on. The only way it will switch is if I win. So just playing 5 games in a row is unfairly disadvantageous to the player who won the first games as well as the guy who goes second in game 1.

[Buggz]

If you win the first game then yes, you'll go second the next time around. That's how I understand Isotropic works (now) and playing best of five games should make the better player win. I've played more 3-way games than headsup (in Dominion that is) but surely the first player advantage and shuffle luck is a minor issue after five games of play. We kind of agree on the issue, but disagree on it being a good enough reason to make a change for tournaments sake.

That being said, I even like going last to react to the first players first buys.

[guided]

That being said, I even like going last to react to the first players first buys.

You are welcome to go last against me every time if you like!

[Buggz]

In poker too? 

[guided]

In poker too? 

I don't think I said anything about poker

[Buggz]

Joking. Position is everything in poker, if you're first every turn it (almost) doesn't matter how good you are.

[guided]

I am aware of positional advantage in poker!

FYI: it is a fact that positional advantage goes the other direction in Dominion

[WanderingWinder]

I am aware of positional advantage in poker!

FYI: it is a fact that positional advantage goes the other direction in Dominion

On most boards, but the amount is highly board dependent, from a small second-player advantage to a huge first-player advantage.

[rrenaud]

I am skeptical about the 2nd player advantage.  I'd be happy to see a bunch a top level posts that classifies the largest subsets of second player advantage boards.  I might even be tempted to do some analysis .

[guided]

On most boards, but the amount is highly board dependent, from a small second-player advantage to a huge first-player advantage.

I'm speaking generally. In fact, I would pretty confidently say 2nd player advantage appears in Dominion less often than being out of position in poker ends up helping you (e.g. allowing you to raise before limpers can improve subsequent players' pot odds).

If you gave me a choice between random seating order for Dominion vs. letting me go first every time, I'll happily take the choice to go first every time! Maybe you could find a board where I'd prefer to go second (though I'm not sure I've seen such a board), but if those are my only two choices...

If you gave me a choice between the usual rules of poker vs. always being last to act before the blinds, absolutely I'd prefer to be last to act every time, even if being under the gun occasionally turns out to be an advantage.

[WanderingWinder]

I'd agree with you guys. I expect that a second-player advantage shows up maybe 1 in 1000 boards. Likely not more, possibly less. Maybe new cards that get printed will change that.

[shark_bait]

I am skeptical about the 2nd player advantage.  I'd be happy to see a bunch a top level posts that classifies the largest subsets of second player advantage boards.  I might even be tempted to do some analysis .

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110920-124137-37adf28e.html

Technically, I was first, but his 4-cost buy came before mine making it relevant to a "2nd player advantage" discussion.  When he decided to open Bishop, I went ahead with the Treasure Maps.  On this board, I would not have opened Treasure Map if I hadn't seen him open Bishop first.

[guided]

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110920-124137-37adf28e.html

Technically, I was first, but his 4-cost buy came before mine making it relevant to a "2nd player advantage" discussion.  When he decided to open Bishop, I went ahead with the Treasure Maps.  On this board, I would not have opened Treasure Map if I hadn't seen him open Bishop first.

To be honest, his opening $4 buy conned you into making a poor opening, and then you won anyway