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Empathy

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Single tactician decks
« on: February 05, 2013, 05:57:21 am »
+6

This post is intended as an extension to Theory's original tactician article on the blog.

Theory's article does an amazing job at explaining what tactician does and in describing in depth the mechanisms of double-tactician decks. I feel however that it is lacking when it comes to single-tactician decks. This is somewhat unfortunate, as I really meet a lot of players who cannot distinguish between good and bad single tactician boards. I believe this is because the article does not really address the question of full single tactician decks, rather than just cards that benefit from a single tact.

To explain what I mean, I'll introduce the notion of a scaling card. In its most strict definition, its not just a card that benefits from increased handsize, but actively creates payload in at least a linear fashion from hand size. Vault benefits greatly from the tactician hand-increase, but essentially does not increase the payload when compared to just playing out all the treasures you discard: there is a combo, but its of qualitative nature, not a scaling one. Baron matching an estate is an example of a quantitative benefit, but it does not truly scale with hand size and merely benefits from it. The cards that fit the most strict version of scaling are:
  • Bank, which increases dollar output either linearly or quadratically, depending on how greedy and bank-heavy you go
  • Coppersmith, which behaves in exactly the same manner
  • HoP, which will hit 8 and snowball very quickly.
  • Bridge, Highway and King's Court, which all scale in more than n when you have n copies of them in hand.
Crossroad deserves an honorable mention. It's drawing ability scales linearly in hand size, but that does not translate into scaling payload unless you have an effective way of gaining a lot of treasure or virtual coin. Hoard and Haggler fit the bill, amongst many other.

Why does this scaling matter? First and foremost, because the three first scaling cards are treasures and do not fit in the double tactician framework unless black market is in the kingdom. On a more down to earth note, you are skipping a whole turn to play your tactician in a single tactician deck. As theory points out, this means the tactician turn better pay off. Cards like Baron, forge or treasure map do greatly benefit from tactician, but they don't expect to only work through it. Think of it more as a preliminary phase to building your real deck. This is more obvious for forge, which really gets a huge boost from the first tactician, but then usually proceeds to make the tactician irrelevant by trashing your deck to the point where you can draw it every single turn anyway. In the case of treasure map, you will keep on playing tactician whenever your hand does not hit 8, but that is really secondary and you are essentially playing a BM variant. In particular, you don't stage with any form of consistency a multi-province turn. All the card matchers (Tournament, Explorer and Baron) again greatly benefit from a single tactician, but its usually a boostrapping mechanism to engineer a deck that mostly does not need tactician. Scaling cards are the only ones that truly form single tactician decks, rather than just some acceleration mechanism for some other deck.

What makes up a legitimate single tactician deck? How do you recognize one? What's a good metric to evaluate it by? Well, basically you have to compare it to double tact. Double tact usually makes a province a turn in steady state. Single tact decks need to make n provinces a turn every n turns to be competitive. This means that if you have a 15 card deck and one tact, you need to scale your tacticians so that they produce triple province turns. Unfortunately, the 'instability' of the deck makes it hard to reach the steady state, and you can often end up either with a lucky lead, or an unfortunate trail off despite your best intentions. This makes the matter a bit more complicated in practice as border conditions do matter. Steady state analysis is weakened a fair bit when you start buying a third of the green in one turn.

How do I build a single tactician deck? First, you need a scaling card. Second, you need to figure out how frequently you will have tactician turns. The aim is to scale your deck according to that frequency. It is therefore very important to get the appropriate number of scalers. This number depends on a few parameters. In the absence of scheme, you essentially have two possibilities: green early, or go for a mega-turn. If you green early, you are trying to grab an early lead in green using a few lucky turns and then hope to close down the game very quickly. Cards that can trash provinces into provinces (salvager being the top one) greatly boost this game plan. The other possibility is to build up to a one or two-turn super frenzy. This usually means a triple and a double province turn. In this case, you scale a lot more and green a little later.

Scheme? Yes scheme. Scheme changes everything. Scheme makes this deck much closer to double tactician than to super-turn decks. Scheme turns this from a good to an amazing deck, even with very little support. I am surprised at the number of games where people don't realize this and waste time thinning their deck towards double tact, when scheme+tact+scaler is just plain faster. When scheme is in the kingdom, you have one very simple objective: make two provinces every second turn. You can do that extremely efficiently: scheme+tact+scaler. In the case of coppersmith/bank, you usually attain that goal either by hitting that initial silver you bought to boostrap yourself to tactician, or by playing two scalers. The typical deck therefore looks around the lines scheme, silver, tact, 2 Coppersmith/bank, 7 coppers, green. In the case of HoP, you need to grab HoP right after your first tact and start gaining stuff. There is usually enough of an engine present to both grab enough diversity to hit 8 and keep drawing everything every second turn.

Finally, strong trashers (chapel, ambassador, remake, steward and forge) tend to favor double tact over single tact-scheme. Single-tact without scheme is usually weaker than a solid double tact deck regardless of the trashing but can be played when the other alternative is to play a non-tact strategy.

Works with
  • Scalers
  • Scheme!
  • Cards that enhance your scaler (apothecary for Coppersmith/Bank, mint for HoP)

Conflicts with
  • Double tact if no scheme
  • Lack of +buy if no scheme/HoP
  • Strong trashers (makes double tact and engines more valuable)
  • Cursers

edit: random additional comments.

Haggler technically is also a card that scales with hand size. If you produce n dollars, it will grant you a card costing n-1. But because this card cannot be a green, it is not well-suited for single tact decks, and much better for double tact as it also provides virtual coin.

Alchemist can replace Tactician as the card that enables scalers. It doesn't set itself up nearly as fast (it takes time to grab the 5 alchemists necessary to start with a 10 card hand) but doesn't require you to skip a turn once it is set up.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:27:51 am by Empathy »
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DStu

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 06:12:56 am »
0

  • Bridge, Highway and King's Court, which all scale quadratically in the number of copies you have of them in hand.
Nitpicking: While of course KC really profits from large handsizes, it does not scale quadratically.  The number of actions you can King's Court given n KC in hand is 2n-2.
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Empathy

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 06:16:44 am »
0

  • Bridge, Highway and King's Court, which all scale quadratically in the number of copies you have of them in hand.
Nitpicking: While of course KC really profits from large handsizes, it does not scale quadratically.  The number of actions you can King's Court given n KC in hand is 2n-2.

Good point :P. I will correct that immediately.
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KingsSkort

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 10:23:38 am »
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I would note that compatible +buy is sometimes critical for these kinds of decks. Simply double-provincing every other turn is not necessarily that great unless your deck is very quick to set up.
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Empathy

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 10:26:43 am »
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I would note that compatible +buy is sometimes critical for these kinds of decks. Simply double-provincing every other turn is not necessarily that great unless your deck is very quick to set up.

Agreed. The scheme-less version crucially requires +buy for multi-province turns (typically 3 with two banks). The scheme version sets up so quickly that +buy isn't necessary (or automatically included in the case of HoP). I will add it to the works with/conflicts section.
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Qualdrion

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 10:58:29 am »
0

  • Bridge, Highway and King's Court, which all scale quadratically in the number of copies you have of them in hand.
Nitpicking: While of course KC really profits from large handsizes, it does not scale quadratically.  The number of actions you can King's Court given n KC in hand is 2n-2.

You mean 2n-1 right?
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DStu

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 11:06:08 am »
+1

  • Bridge, Highway and King's Court, which all scale quadratically in the number of copies you have of them in hand.
Nitpicking: While of course KC really profits from large handsizes, it does not scale quadratically.  The number of actions you can King's Court given n KC in hand is 2n-2.

You mean 2n-1 right?
Whatever gets you to f(1)=1
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DG

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 11:34:05 am »
+2

This manner of playing tactician decks is good but I don't think it is the defining 'single tactician' play. Even just using a single tactician to link up your barons and estates can be perfectly reasonable. There are plenty of other benefits from tacticians such as linear scaling (and less than liner scaling), deck cycling, overdrawing the deck, card combinations, hand defense, choice, information, or an extra action.

As an example if you start masquerade/silver, buy a tactician, two treasure maps, then you open up the chance to play the treasure maps and draw gold on the same turn. This doesn't have mathematical scaling but is still a style of single tactician play.
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DrFlux

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 11:49:59 am »
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I agree with DG. Scaling is really only one thing that can enable a "single tactician" deck. Tactician can even be helpful with slower trashing cards like forager and remodel, allowing you to get full use out of these cards. The whole idea of single tactician is that a big turn is better than two smaller turns. This is equally true whether you are talking about a scaling card, or a "dependent" card like baron or remodel. And there's not really much that's different about the fact that in these decks, you want to play tactican often, making a scheme or two very good.

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jomini

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 12:46:51 pm »
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A number of cards also get better than linear gains with a single Tac's heavy draw:


Tournament - with enough draw you can use a single province to score multiple critical prizes. Take something like Tac/Smithy/Tournament. With a single Smithy, a province, a gold, and a silver you have 14 non-cantrip cards. This means you can play a Smithy, nab a Trusty steed, play it, and then draw your province back to pick up Followers or Princess.  Additionally, Tac not only gives you an increase in the odds of hitting province with Tournament, it also gets you the first province sooner giving you a better than linear return on your hand size.


Fool's Gold - Yeah each additional one is only 4 coin more ... but with larger hand sizes it is much easier to line up 4 and 5 Fg for the double/triple province turns. The expected payout per Fg tends to double or more when you double hand size. Having the +buy so you can play 5 Fg for two Provinces is also extremely good.

Governor - for the big game end turns, starting out with double the cards, actions, and buys is actually pretty big. You can much more easily gain new golds draw them (even using a terminal draw card without a village) and then remodel them. The +buy makes it easier for you to buy two Provinces (perhaps preventing your opponent from gaining an extra Duchy), a Province and a Duchy or two Duchies. Because Tac and Gov compete on price point, I normally only grab a Tac after I've emptied the Govs, but he is extremely useful; Gov also works well because you can gain golds or remodel cards (e.g. Estate -> Smithy) on your Tac discard turn(s).

Madman - Often your first Madman only nets you 4 cards, with Tac out he nets 9. The second Madman normally nets you 7 more cards compared to the 17 starting with Tac. Now Madman is not enough, by itself to get you the crazy coin gain you want to pull this off. However, there are a number of quick Treasure generating options that can give you big boosts: Playing Beggar (preferably with a Tr/Kc/Prssn on it) any turn prior in the shuffle (e.g. you play Kc/Beggar on T1 of a shuffle, Tac on T2, on T3 you draw your deck and recycle the coppers), Trader (Peddlers and Feoda being preferred), buying mass copper the turn you discard, Secret Chamber/Vault/Storeroom (discard half your non-Madmen cards, play a Madman, discard etc.), or a few other options can more than double the return on Madman off Tac. For an added bonus, in some setups, you can trash Hermits on the Tac discard turn for quick setup.



You might also want to discuss the other end of the spectrum for single Tac decks - recovery after deck implosion. Let's say that you and I opened Sea Hag/Warehouse and ended up splitting the curses 5 - 5. Along the way we each bought 2 Warehouses and 3 silvers. This gives us 22 cards of which 9 are competing dead and 2 decrease hand size; we can hit 5 not too hard off Warehouse, but 6 will be a while. Using a single Tac we draw 10 cards and we can already expect to hit 6 coin off that, but playing 3 Warehouses (we should expect almost 2 on the average turn and 3 would not be uncommon when we include Warehouse draw) will allow us to draw 19 of 22 cards and pick the best 7 (3 silvers and 4 coppers, or enough for a gold & a silver or a Warehouse & useful 2). Sifting gains are non-linear with handsize in sufficiently crappy decks. Single Tac is phenomenal when rebuilding after a heavy curse exchange.

Single Tac decks also allow for you to play exceedingly strong combos with terminals. For instance, Militia/Masq is vastly stronger than either alone. With Tac as the only "village" it can be worth it to force your opponent to discard every other turn and give you one of his 3 cards for a copper. Another strong combo can be cost reduction/gainers, like Bridge/Iw/Highway. With the Bridge in play, you can snap up Hwy's directly and later, maybe, either Iw 2 provinces or buy 3 provinces and Iw 1.

One thing I like about single Tac decks is their ability to quickly draw your entire deck and enable all sorts of shenanigans. Take something simple like Tac/Mint. Opening 5/2 I can go Tac/nothing, play a Tac and draw my entire deck. I buy a Gold. I buy any cantrip whenever I can't play Tac. Next time I play the Tac I play 6 or 7 coppers and buy a Mint. I now effectively have a 6 or 7 card deck with Mint and Gold. I can then Mint/buy gold and either just treat Tac as a dead card or use on crappy hands to setup big hands of lots of gold.

Likewise, drawing your entire deck can let you easily do things like: use Native villages as psuedo-Islands with discarding; double dip on cards with discard for benefit (e.g. discard coppers with Horse traders, redraw them with Apothecaries/Counting House; discard all your actions to a Secret Chamber, redraw them with a Scrying pool); discard your Tunnels, play Highway/Sage, gain 4 or 5 gold and draw them; Iw two Treasure Maps, draw them, play them, maybe even draw the golds; or Tr-> Remodel stuff into Kc/Bridge/Iw and set off a card gaining splurge. Yeah most of these are pet tricks more often than not, but Tac is really good at setting some of these up really early on.


An additional thing to mention is the usefulness of Outpost, like Black Market, in allowing you to make play "Double Tac" with treasures. Cards like Scheme (best, needs only 1 Tac), Scavenger (among the worst), Count, Haven, Courtyard, etc. all allow you to easily ensure that your Outpost turn has a Tac in it. You then discard two cards during the Op turn and your next regular turn is 10 cards. This works exceedingly well with Hop and Bank decks. It takes an extra turn or two to setup an Op based "Double Tac", but it doubles your speed from thereafter. As an added bonus, you can sometimes end the game with a single extra turn to say, buy the final Duchy.

You can even setup reasonably reliable Double Op Tac decks without honest top decking or Haven; draw your entire deck and discard 4 cards (e.g. have 4 cards left to draw and play a Cellar on 4 cards including a Tac), play something that draws one card (e.g. Cellar a card) if you don't draw the Tac, then you are good, otherwise you can repeat the exercise (draw everything, discard 4, draw 1) until you do. About half of Tac/Op boards have some potential for becoming double Tac decks; a much smaller number can become infamous "Triple" Tac decks and play a traditional Double Tac turn in both the regular and Op turn.
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shark_bait

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 12:58:16 pm »
+2

Another consideration is getting multiple Tacticians in a single-Tacitician deck.  The benefit of a large Tactician hand can be so huge that you want to maximize your chance of getting that Tactician played on the first hand after a reshuffle.

EDIT:  As a duration card that draws a shit-ton of cards, the chance of missing a reshuffle is also highly likely.  Having an extra Tactician in the deck can help alleviate that problem.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 02:44:02 pm by shark_bait »
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timchen

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 01:33:19 pm »
+1

While an interesting article, I think it is a bit specialized. I do not think you really need a scaling card (as you defined) to go tactician. On the other hand, the presence of a scaling card does not mean that you need to go tactician either: tactician+HoP is going nowhere without other support for example; tactician+coppersmith is probably not stronger if any of the double-tac strategy is available.

One thing about single tactician I find interesting is that it messes up the PPR. Against a non-tactician deck it is probably an additional advantage.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 01:43:58 pm »
0

KC and crossroads (which scales, I don't know why it isn't a full-blown thing here) don't really pull you to single tac over double tac. I think the biggest thing there is how reliant you are on treasure. But then there's also all of the points about just using it to get the double-large hands sometimes that's nice.

I would say that lots of these have similar themes - KC, TR, Tournament, baron - all these cards are looking to get particular cards paired together, which isn't really the same as scaling, but is another definite benefit of larger handsize. You could also mention goons and scaling T4B in that context, off the top of my head.

Empathy

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2013, 02:21:09 pm »
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KC and crossroads (which scales, I don't know why it isn't a full-blown thing here) don't really pull you to single tac over double tac. I think the biggest thing there is how reliant you are on treasure. But then there's also all of the points about just using it to get the double-large hands sometimes that's nice.

I would say that lots of these have similar themes - KC, TR, Tournament, baron - all these cards are looking to get particular cards paired together, which isn't really the same as scaling, but is another definite benefit of larger handsize. You could also mention goons and scaling T4B in that context, off the top of my head.

I think WWs post hits the nail on the head. Some of the other criticism is legitmate but sometimes peripheral. For general comments on tactician combos, read theory's article. It covers all the strategies that greatly benefit from tactician. What I'm trying to talk bout here is a bit more niche, and consists of decks that rely 100% on tactician and would rarely be playable otherwise. I mean, you can use any scalable card after building an engine to ramp up your payload, but tactician is unique at doing this much faster and despite the copper-flood. Tournament, baron and all those cards greatly benefit from tactician turns, but you will still play them on your non-tact turns. The same cannot be said for coppersmith, and to some degree for bank and HoP if you don't have an engine. If you have an engine, then the tact is playing a secondary role.

Goons definitely scales with number of goons, which I somehow completely missed. TfB is kinda the whole savager end-game story all over again: you grab a quick province/peddler and just cycle fast to end the game with a little lead. Or am I missing something beyond the fact that its easier to match the TfB with a high value card?

KC and Xroad help double tact just as much as single tact, if not more. I indeed mostly talk about treasure-based payloads and stress that, unless scheme is involved, they usually trail behind double tactician. With scheme it is board-dependent, but I can think of a few pretty solid (but not fast) double-tact boards that loose to tact-scheme-coppersmith/bank. More importantly my point is that even in absence of virtual coin you can set up this very stable tact/scheme decks if KC or Xroad is there to scale your turns appropriately. They aren't full-blown here because, as you stated, with virtual coin they actually tend to favor double tact over single tact.


As for Jomini's very accurate outpost/haven comment, I will add it as a very good other enabler for treasure-based tacts.


Would it put everybody's mind at ease if I rename the thread Treasure based Tactician engines? Or maybe Scaling Tactician decks, as opposed to Tactician combos and double tact? I mean, nothing prevents you from mixing these archetypes, but as WW pointed out, they present very distinct elements. The presence of virtual money as well as cards that combo with tactician without really needing it as the main engine kind of sidetracks the main point of my little post. I want to provide another strategy in your toolbox that behaves a bit differently from the others. Whether its better or not than the previous depends on the board. On some boards, the other tactician strategies might not be available or viable (lack of engine/trashing/virtual coin).

« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 02:23:32 pm by Empathy »
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jomini

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2013, 11:05:38 pm »
0

Empathy:

Even with just treasure based strategies on tap I stand wholeheartedly by a few of the other cards as good single Tac setups:
1. Curse recovery, particularly with sifting. Single tac can bootstrap instantly to gold or to high price trashing (e.g. Altar or Forge) and allow you to much more easily snag provinces. Yeah single Tac isn't good per se here, but it is much better than many alternatives. Buying a single province every time you hit a Tac can often get you to 4 long before the other guy can get a high enough treasury density to catch you.
2. Madman. Starting off with 10 cards and a bonus buy is more than doubly better than a straight 5 card start. You need at least two fewer Madmen to draw a monster wad of cash; this is big because you need to gain 2 fewer Hermits and you have 2 fewer dead cards before going off. You can crash your deck with mass buys of coppers or anything else that gives you more treasures (e.g. Igg) and leverage Tac/Madmen into drawing say 20 coppers and 20 other coin. Particularly, Tac/Madman actually can enable an otherwise impossible megaturn where normal Madman density would be too low to have good odds of chain drawing 40 (or more) cards.
3. Fool's Gold. Hitting 5 Fg with single-Tac setup every other turn, particularly with Scheme, is vastly easier than hitting 3 Fg or 2 Fg and 3 coppers every turn. With even poor sifting, Tac/Fg can beat down a lot of things. With a typical 2 Fg hand (hands of 3 Fg being balanced by hands of 1), your average Fg is worth 2.5 coin. With a Tac setup, that average jumps to 3.4 or higher and comes with a built in +buy. Your expected VP gain more than doubles in a lot of setups.

A viable Goons setup almost always wants to go double Tac. The extra actions and cards virtually always make it easier to chain up lots of Goons for more net points and to cash out on the final turn for perhaps 100 VP. The only time I'd really be tempted to forgo double - tac / Goons would be with either a shortage of +action (e.g. only Necropolis or Xroads out, maybe with no village out) or with Watchtower out to trash copper/curse buys, in only the latter case ... well trashing makes it easy to run Wt/Goons alone.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 11:07:01 pm by jomini »
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DG

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Re: Single tactician decks
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 07:19:15 am »
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Quote
Would it put everybody's mind at ease if I rename the thread Treasure based Tactician engines? Or maybe Scaling Tactician decks, as opposed to Tactician combos and double tact?

Some name change would be good and scaling is probably the better of those two. However remember that even drawing cards like caravans give themselves positive feedback with big hands since if you draw more caravans then you get more cards next turn and play more caravans next turn and so on. These small scale effects seem to be outside the intended scope of your article.
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