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Author Topic: Opening develop/terminal 4$  (Read 4348 times)

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Empathy

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Opening develop/terminal 4$
« on: February 03, 2013, 05:00:40 pm »
+10

Develop is #30 on the current ranking of 3$ cards that I find myself strangely attracted to these days. My win-rate is pretty average with it (1.18) but I still would like to share a little thought experiment that goes through my mind every time I spot develop in the kingdom.

The question asked is: what does it mean to open develop/terminal 4$ card?

Lets assume for now that the 4$ card is a terminal silver (e.g. militia, monument or navigator) to keep things simple. Then there are three essential scenarios:

1) The typical one: no terminal conflict and develop hits estate. Probability: 60%

2) Terminal conflict. Probability: 30%

3) Develop misses both the terminal and the estate. Probability: 10%


The crucial point to understand is that you need to compare develop to both the classical 3/4 and 2/5 openings, and keep track of how much cycling speed you've lost.


In scenario 1, you essentially replaced one of your starting estates with a develop, at the cost of one card cycling, which is like saying that you got hit by a bureaucrat. In a shortform notation I will quantify this as: 3/4 opening, -1E(estate), +1D(devel), -1C(cycling). This opening is therefore equivalent to opening 3/4 but replacing one of your initial estates by a devel and cycling one less card on the first reschuffle. Note that because you topdeck the gained silver, this is not at all equivalent to gaining it via, say, a jack of all trades or bureaucrat.

In scenario 2, I assume there is an interesting 5$ card that you are partly racing for with your opponent. You can find a list of 5$ cards that work particularly well below. The point is that you avoid the terminal conflict by developing your 4$ card even if you have an estate. The net effect is: 3/5, +1D, -2C. This is therefore equivalent to opening silver+devel/5$ on T2/3 (not a shabby opening) but giving a free ghost ship play to your opponent. I stress that because you topdeck the 5$ card, this must be compared to a 2/5 opening, not a 3/4 one. Therefore this scenario (and hence the devel/4 opening) typically shines on boards that favor 5/2 openings. In that sense, develop works a lot like nomad camp, which is the only other card that can allow you to gain a 5$ card on your first reschuffle from a 3/4 opening.

Finally, scenario 3 is very very bad. If you had bought a silver instead, this would have been a 6$ hand. instead you get another poor 3/4 dollar cycle for the very meager benefit of trashing one copper.


So, this is a gamble opening. The interesting scenario is terminal conflict, which happens roughly with probability 30%. How much this event is worth depends heavily on the 5$ card you are targeting, but also on how useful the develop will be later in the game. Don't forget, the develop will stay no matter what! The cards that therefore work best are either very strong 5$ cards that you want as early as possible (e.g. witch, mountebank, igg, vault on grand market board) or non-terminal hand increasers (e.g. laboratory, stables, tactician). The first one is because of the sheer impact of gaining one of those cards a shuffle earlier than your opponent, which will compensate any momentum loss from the free ghost ship you give them. Of all these cards, IGG shines the most, as it also provides an amazing develop target throughout the game. The second scenario is a little more subtle, but basically hinges on the fact that all these cards give you a very high chance of matching your develop with your three remaing estates, usually paving the way for a very strong engine or BM+non-terminal draw deck. This time, stables gets a mention as it takes care of the 'trash' that develop does not want to bother with (coppers), while helping develop those estates into silver. Tactician is also noteworthy, as a lot of tactician decks (tact-bank, double tact-black market...) are decided by who plays his tact first. Clearing the estates quickly is the cherry on top of the cake.

Lets turn our attention to scenario 1. It happens roughly with probability 60%, and is essentially equivalent to replacing one of your starting estates with a devel, at the cost of mild tempo loss. First, while that does not sound altogether positive, don't forget that at each cycle, you will still have a decent shot at the above gamble. The way I think of it therefore, the tradeoff is basically between giving your opponent a free bureucrat attack, and having a chance at a surprise 5$ card on the second reschuffle. Given that this opening does not hurt your odds of hitting 5$ on your first reschuffle, this can still lead to interesting play. However, barring a powerful 5$ card or an overall good develop board, this is still just 'equalizing' with the standard 3/4 opening.

Scenario 3, which has roughly a 10% chance of turning up, is extremely bad, esepcially given that you choose this opening to hit 5$.


So, in a nutshell, this opening is a gamble opening. It trades off a 30% chance of getting a lead for essentially a 10% of badly losing the game. In the remaining 60%, it behaves in a similar fashion to a standard opening, with some slight subtleties that make it better or worse depending on the specific kindom (basically how important the develop is for a possible engine). Whether this gamble is worth the risk is highly dependent on the 5$ cards available. Whether the board is develop-friendly does not really come into the equation directly, as the optimal strategy in most such boards is to first ramp up moneyness and then add the develop to create valuable 5=>6+4 or what not combos.


Works with
  • Boards with significant 5/2 advantage
  • Otherwise not played 4$ terminals (e.g. navigator, militia on some boards)
  • IGG
  • non-terminal +draw
  • tact
 
conflicts with
  • lack of the above (develop remains a weak card)
  • strong cantrip 4$ (e.g. tournament, caravan)

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dghunter79

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2013, 03:02:00 pm »
+1

Cool!  But I don't understand why you're saying a Develop play is costing you tempo.  Is it because the cards go on your deck, delaying shuffle?  Cause that seems to me like it's gaining tempo. 

I mean, imagine if, on turn 3, you Develop a Militia into a Stables and a Scheme.  Describing this play as any kind of loss of tempo, let alone "giving a free ghost ship play to your opponent," seems counterintuitive to me.

LastFootnote

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2013, 03:07:16 pm »
0

Cool!  But I don't understand why you're saying a Develop play is costing you tempo.  Is it because the cards go on your deck, delaying shuffle?  Cause that seems to me like it's gaining tempo. 

I mean, imagine if, on turn 3, you Develop a Militia into a Stables and a Scheme.  Describing this play as any kind of loss of tempo, let alone "giving a free ghost ship play to your opponent," seems counterintuitive to me.

Agreed. Any tempo you're losing is the result of not playing your $4 card. Putting two good cards on your deck may delay your reshuffle, but as long as one or both of the cards you gain are the ones you want to play most often, putting them on your deck is a gain in tempo, not a loss.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2013, 03:24:40 pm »
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Well, the tempo lost is the result of not playing your $4 or the Silver (or other $3) you could have bought instead of that Develop. You're getting a $5 for your $4, but you're getting it a turn later.
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dondon151

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 03:42:56 pm »
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Yes, and you cycle -1 card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 03:48:58 pm »
0

Yes, and you cycle -1 card.

dondon, I'm surprised you don't have more to say on this topic. I seem to remember you saying in no uncertain terms that the purpose of opening Develop/$4 was NOT to have them collide. I'm not claiming you're right or wrong, but as someone who holds a view diametrically opposed to the OP, you'd make an excellent devil's advocate for this article.
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Empathy

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 03:51:13 pm »
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Well, the tempo lost is the result of not playing your $4 or the Silver (or other $3) you could have bought instead of that Develop. You're getting a $5 for your $4, but you're getting it a turn later.

Exactly. That develop and 4$ card still took up space in your first hand. So it's like you open 5/3(say, scheme+stables as you suggested), because you get to play both those cards on  your first reschuffle, but your *first* hand on that reschuffle will have been hit by a discard attack, as two of the cards did 'nothing'.


Think of it the following way:

1) you buy devel/militia, draw 3C, D, M on first reschuffle. Develop the militia and buy something for 3.
2) you open scheme/stables, draw 3C, Scheme, Stables on first reschuffle. Get hit by a ghostship and topdeck scheme and stables.

These two scenarios are essentially the same. It's therefore as if you opened 5/3, but got hit by a ghostship.

edit: My view is not diametrically opposed to dondon. I suggest this opening when 5/2 is a good opening. His arguments might hold on a different board (with lots of good 3s, for example and no good 5, in which case silver/terminal 4$ isn't that great either).
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dondon151

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2013, 04:02:22 pm »
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dondon, I'm surprised you don't have more to say on this topic. I seem to remember you saying in no uncertain terms that the purpose of opening Develop/$4 was NOT to have them collide. I'm not claiming you're right or wrong, but as someone who holds a view diametrically opposed to the OP, you'd make an excellent devil's advocate for this article.

Well, I didn't understand the OP very clearly (but now I do), and my point was that your plan should not bank on a 30% chance of success if you're opening Develop. Or if it is, then you were really far up a creek without a paddle in the first place. Typically I do not open Develop to get a 5/3 topdecked during the first reshuffle; I get it to turn my Estates into something good, and then maybe later on I can use it to do other cool stuff.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 04:08:09 pm »
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dondon, I'm surprised you don't have more to say on this topic. I seem to remember you saying in no uncertain terms that the purpose of opening Develop/$4 was NOT to have them collide. I'm not claiming you're right or wrong, but as someone who holds a view diametrically opposed to the OP, you'd make an excellent devil's advocate for this article.

Well, I didn't understand the OP very clearly (but now I do), and my point was that your plan should not bank on a 30% chance of success if you're opening Develop. Or if it is, then you were really far up a creek without a paddle in the first place. Typically I do not open Develop to get a 5/3 topdecked during the first reshuffle; I get it to turn my Estates into something good, and then maybe later on I can use it to do other cool stuff.

Makes sense. That being said, here are two questions I have for you.

1. Do you generally consider opening Develop/$4 Terminal as a viable option (whether or not you want them to collide)?
2. If you do make such an opening and your Develop collides with both an Estate and your $4 purchse on turn 3, what do you do?

We talked about opening Develop/$4 Non-terminal in our previous discussion, but I don't believe we covered this.
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Empathy

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2013, 06:06:04 pm »
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dondon, I'm surprised you don't have more to say on this topic. I seem to remember you saying in no uncertain terms that the purpose of opening Develop/$4 was NOT to have them collide. I'm not claiming you're right or wrong, but as someone who holds a view diametrically opposed to the OP, you'd make an excellent devil's advocate for this article.

Well, I didn't understand the OP very clearly (but now I do), and my point was that your plan should not bank on a 30% chance of success if you're opening Develop. Or if it is, then you were really far up a creek without a paddle in the first place. Typically I do not open Develop to get a 5/3 topdecked during the first reshuffle; I get it to turn my Estates into something good, and then maybe later on I can use it to do other cool stuff.

Yeah, I see the type of board you are taking about. Engine decks with lots of 3/4 pieces (where 5 is not important). The fact that devel trashes and grabs a few engine pieces make it nice, especially if your other opener is not a terminal (caravan, fishing village...).

And this deck doesn't purely bank on the 30% probability event. Even in the 60% case, it doesn't really fall behind a standard opening. In some cases, it would actually still be ahead (stables board, igg board). In most cases, the two would be toe to toe in that 60% event. Of course, the 10% is horrible. Again, this is a lot like nomad camp openings, which I guess are better understood.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 06:07:54 pm by Empathy »
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meandering mercury

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 07:15:52 pm »
0

Really interesting and I appreciate the analysis. Two points to note:

1. If you want to get to $5, it still seems better to go for silver/$4, which (as theory has previously pointed out) has something like an 80% chance to reach $5 on the first shuffle. Your analysis didn't include the chance of getting to $5 on T3/T4, but I would have assumed that silver/silver or equivalent would do better.

2. I don't agree that topdecking a $5 is equivalent to a 5/3 open, because if you topdeck on T4, your $5 will miss the next shuffle. I'd say that this is closer to the more conventional silver/silver open that buys a $5 on T3 or T4 than it is to a 5/3 open. On the other hand, if you topdeck on T3, then you get to play your power card twice, which indeed is amazing. But the chance of that happening must be like 15%, which should be weighed against the 10% chance that your develop eats a copper.
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dondon151

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2013, 07:46:18 pm »
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Makes sense. That being said, here are two questions I have for you.

1. Do you generally consider opening Develop/$4 Terminal as a viable option (whether or not you want them to collide)?
2. If you do make such an opening and your Develop collides with both an Estate and your $4 purchse on turn 3, what do you do?

We talked about opening Develop/$4 Non-terminal in our previous discussion, but I don't believe we covered this.

I'm going to cop out a little and say that it depends strongly on context. If the terminal $4 will be an integral component of my future deck, then I will strongly consider opening with it. But there aren't a whole lot of $4s like that. Other trashers like Moneylender and Salvager kind of fill overlapping roles. Handsize attacks like Militia and Cutpurse don't tend to do so well against decks that Develop works well with (Menagerie and Watchtower come to mind, and neither attack helps against an opponent who is mirroring).

If there are $2s that I want, then opening terminal $4 hurts less in the case where the $4 and Develop collide and I want to trash an Estate (of course, if I draw $4/D/C/E/E, then I can't buy the $2). Almost always I'll trash the Estate, though, because if I trash Estate -> Silver, then I can probably buy a $5 on the next turn and I've gotten rid of an Estate.
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Empathy

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Re: Opening develop/terminal 4$
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2013, 08:46:39 pm »
+1

Really interesting and I appreciate the analysis. Two points to note:

1. If you want to get to $5, it still seems better to go for silver/$4, which (as theory has previously pointed out) has something like an 80% chance to reach $5 on the first shuffle. Your analysis didn't include the chance of getting to $5 on T3/T4, but I would have assumed that silver/silver or equivalent would do better.

2. I don't agree that topdecking a $5 is equivalent to a 5/3 open, because if you topdeck on T4, your $5 will miss the next shuffle. I'd say that this is closer to the more conventional silver/silver open that buys a $5 on T3 or T4 than it is to a 5/3 open. On the other hand, if you topdeck on T3, then you get to play your power card twice, which indeed is amazing. But the chance of that happening must be like 15%, which should be weighed against the 10% chance that your develop eats a copper.

1. 30% chance of getting $5 through topdeck. 60% chance of hitting estate with develop. half of the times, the develop will be before the $4, half of the time, after. If its before, then you want to compute the probability that the remaining two estates hit the hand with the terminal (only case where you don't hit 5) = 60% . If it is after, you don't hit $5 if you draw your top decked silver with both remaining estates AND without the terminal 4 = 70%. Lastly, the probability that you hit $5 in the worst case scenario is 12%.

So that adds up yo 0.3 + 0.3*0.6+0.3*0.7+0.1*0.12 = 70%.

It's really as if you traded up 10% chance of hitting 5 (essentially the 'bad' scenario) for a 30% chance of hitting the 5$ on first shuffle.



2. True. But the fact that your 5$ card is combined with a 3$ one is particularly sweet, as it often guarantees you a particularly nice turn (if anything, a guaranteed second $5 card before second reschuffle, which you therefore have to compare to 15% of hitting 2 $5 cards of silver/silver).

This actually finished to convince me that you probably end up, in expectation, with roughly the same number of $5 cards then your opponent, even disregarding the advantage of playing $5 on the first reschuffle.

Indeed, you have a 30% chance of having collision, which really guarantees 2 $5 on most boards. Then a remaining 40% chance of hitting at least one. That means, on average, 1 $5 card. The standard opening has 1.06, which given my approximations, is probably equal.

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