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[A Drowned Kernel]

It's something I've seen a surprising number of people do, and they'll do it multiple times a game so I don't think I can always chalk it up to not realizing that the Curse pile is empty. Is there a rational reason to do this or are people just reflexively spending the extra action and hoping to get lucky with what they make you discard?

[werothegreat]

Edge case: When you're Possessing someone, have them play KC-KC-Sea Hag-Sea Hag-Sea Hag so you get an awesome Counting House play on your next turn.

[shark_bait]

It's something I've seen a surprising number of people do, and they'll do it multiple times a game so I don't think I can always chalk it up to not realizing that the Curse pile is empty. Is there a rational reason to do this or are people just reflexively spending the extra action and hoping to get lucky with what they make you discard?

It honestly depends on what stage the game is on.  Ideally you would do this right before they make the transition to hard-core greening as there deck is as good as it will get (increases chance of hitting a good card) and the increased cycling means that they will get to their newly bought green cards just a smidgen faster. 

[Tables]

In general, it's obviously going to be very little difference either way, marginal benefit or marginal loss most of the time. As a good estimate, you want to play Sea Hag when your opponent's remaining deck is better than their discard pile, and not when it's the other way around. Forcing a reshuffle however can also be deadly, and shouldn't be overlooked.

[qmech]

you want to play Sea Hag when your opponent's remaining deck is better than their discard pile

In practice, this usually comes down to whether your opponent has started to buy Victory cards.  Early game cycling is usually good for you, and late game cycling generally bad; the same applies to your opponent.

[Piemaster]

you want to play Sea Hag when your opponent's remaining deck is better than their discard pile

In practice, this usually comes down to whether your opponent has started to buy Victory cards.  Early game cycling is usually good for you, and late game cycling generally bad; the same applies to your opponent.

Agreed, that's what I usually use to decide

[Tables]

you want to play Sea Hag when your opponent's remaining deck is better than their discard pile

In practice, this usually comes down to whether your opponent has started to buy Victory cards.  Early game cycling is usually good for you, and late game cycling generally bad; the same applies to your opponent.

Yes, that is usually the case.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think it might actually be better to play it even before your opponent is greening if they have a slow-cycling deck that depends on a few key cards. If this is the case, then potentially forcing one of these cards to skip a shuffle will be much bigger impact than any possible benefit you could give them by cycling 1 card, even if the odds of hitting it are low.

[AJD]

And, of course, sometimes you have nonzero information about what might be on your opponent's deck. If you play Village and Duchess and the opponent leaves their deck-top card in place, then you should play Sea Hag. If you play Ghost Ship, you and your opponent can spend a long time psyching each other out about whether you should play Sea Hag next.

[SirPeebles]

If you play Village and Duchess and the opponent leaves their deck-top card in place, then you should play Sea Hag.

You should also take a moment to appreciate your good fortune to have drawn your Village with a terminal collision so late in a Sea Hag slog turned Duchy/Duchess race.  Apparently that Village wasn't such an awful purchase after all.

[AJD]

If you play Village and Duchess and the opponent leaves their deck-top card in place, then you should play Sea Hag.

You should also take a moment to appreciate your good fortune to have drawn your Village with a terminal collision so late in a Sea Hag slog turned Duchy/Duchess race.  Apparently that Village wasn't such an awful purchase after all.

Heh. Well, it might be a Fishing Village. I'd buy those over Silver in a Sea Hag / Duchess game, wouldn't you?

[SirPeebles]

Possibly?  If I foresee a slog, then I'm probably more interested in concentrated wealth than worrying about terminal collision.  Fishing Village is only as strong as Silver, monetarily, when you play inconsistently.

[Drab Emordnilap]

If you play Village and Duchess and the opponent leaves their deck-top card in place, then you should play Sea Hag.

You should also take a moment to appreciate your good fortune to have drawn your Village with a terminal collision so late in a Sea Hag slog turned Duchy/Duchess race.  Apparently that Village wasn't such an awful purchase after all.

I defend my Walled Village purchase in this game.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/24/game-20121124-221936-f9b20763.html


— Drab Emordnilap's turn 18 —
Drab Emordnilap plays a Walled Village.
... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions.
Drab Emordnilap plays a Duchess.
... getting +$2.
... Drab Emordnilap draws a card and puts it back.
... First draws a card and puts it back.
Drab Emordnilap plays a Sea Hag.
... First draws and discards a Nomad Camp.
Drab Emordnilap plays a Gold.
Drab Emordnilap buys a Cartographer.
(Drab Emordnilap draws: a Curse, a Sea Hag, a Gold, a Cartographer, and a Copper.)

[WanderingWinder]

Somebody should mention that if your opponent has a horse traders or tunnel in their deck, you really shouldn't play a dead sea hag.

Go ahead and take that last bit out of context.

[AJD]

Possibly?  If I foresee a slog, then I'm probably more interested in concentrated wealth than worrying about terminal collision.  Fishing Village is only as strong as Silver, monetarily, when you play inconsistently.

Yeah, but the presence of Fishing Village enables you to gain a lot of terminals without worrying too much about it, and those free Duchesses are going to be handy in a Sea Hag slog.... You might want to open Sea Hag / Silver to maximize your chances of hitting another useful $4 or $5 on the first shuffle, but Fishing Villages are probably going to be better from there on out....

[Watno]

Somebody should mention that if your opponent has a horse traders or tunnel in their deck, you really shouldn't play a dead sea hag.

Go ahead and take that last bit out of context.

Well, except if you're leading and there's only one gold left with 2 piles empty.

[LastFootnote]

Somebody should mention that if your opponent has a horse traders or tunnel in their deck, you really shouldn't play a dead sea hag.

Go ahead and take that last bit out of context.

Well, except if you're leading and there's only one gold left with 2 piles empty.

The opponent isn't forced to reveal his Tunnel to gain a Gold, though. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

[GendoIkari]

Somebody should mention that if your opponent has a horse traders or tunnel in their deck, you really shouldn't play a dead sea hag.

Go ahead and take that last bit out of context.

Well, except if you're leading and there's only one gold left with 2 piles empty.

The opponent isn't forced to reveal his Tunnel to gain a Gold, though. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

It's a 3 player game; the opponent who has the Tunnel has no chance to win anyway, and he likes you more than the 3rd player.

[AdamH]

you really shouldn't play a dead sea hag.

Well, except if you're leading and there's only one gold left with 2 piles empty.

The opponent isn't forced to reveal his Tunnel to gain a Gold, though. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

It's a 3 player game; the opponent who has the Tunnel has no chance to win anyway, and he likes you more than the 3rd player.

He may like you more than your other opponent, but right now he's butthurt that you bought all the coal on the last turn of your earlier game of Power Grid so that he couldn't use one of his power plants and got last place as a result. He's likely to prolong the game just to spite you.

[Stealth Tomato]

Possibly?  If I foresee a slog, then I'm probably more interested in concentrated wealth than worrying about terminal collision.  Fishing Village is only as strong as Silver, monetarily, when you play inconsistently.

...and costs the same, and provides an additional benefit.

[Piemaster]

I think it might actually be better to play it even before your opponent is greening if they have a slow-cycling deck that depends on a few key cards. If this is the case, then potentially forcing one of these cards to skip a shuffle will be much bigger impact than any possible benefit you could give them by cycling 1 card, even if the odds of hitting it are low.

I'm not sure that's true.  You have a small chance of causing the key card to miss the reshuffle (large benefit) versus a large chance allow them to play it more often (small downside).  Small chance multiplied by large benefit in this context probably equals large chance multiplied by small downside and the two will cancel each other out.

Of course, if they are towards the bottom of their deck and haven't played the card yet then that obviously swings the probabilities in favour of swinging.

[dondon151]

I'm not sure that's true.  You have a small chance of causing the key card to miss the reshuffle (large benefit) versus a large chance allow them to play it more often (small downside).  Small chance multiplied by large benefit in this context probably equals large chance multiplied by small downside and the two will cancel each other out.

This isn't quite true either. A small benefit is only a benefit if it results in the opponent doing better than he would have otherwise. It could very well be that these small benefits amount to nothing.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think it might actually be better to play it even before your opponent is greening if they have a slow-cycling deck that depends on a few key cards. If this is the case, then potentially forcing one of these cards to skip a shuffle will be much bigger impact than any possible benefit you could give them by cycling 1 card, even if the odds of hitting it are low.

I'm not sure that's true.  You have a small chance of causing the key card to miss the reshuffle (large benefit) versus a large chance allow them to play it more often (small downside).  Small chance multiplied by large benefit in this context probably equals large chance multiplied by small downside and the two will cancel each other out.

Of course, if they are towards the bottom of their deck and haven't played the card yet then that obviously swings the probabilities in favour of swinging.

This would only be true if the value of each benefit/detriment were linear in its probability. They're not. Moving a card up one spot only lets you play it more often if it would have been the last card you didn't get to in the game.