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[Dsell]

I just played 2 games with amazing engine potential. I was a bit distracted and played really sub-optimally in both, but I'm trying to climb the leaderboard before iso goes down and my engine play needs improving.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/26/game-20121226-154448-0fd353d9.html

In this game I was definitely outplayed. I should have gone for Bishop at some point for trashing, but I'm never sure when it's right to pick up Bishop. I think that Hamlet/Watchtower/Warehouse/Grand Market should have been the center of my engine, but I didn't pick up enough of the first 3 till it was way too late. Haggler and Monument, I think, were good support, but I focused on them too much early. But this board is super interesting, with almost every card coming into play.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/26/game-20121226-160916-eff6c9c7.html

I'm so bad at Governor games. With Governor and King's Court, Governor definitely looms large here, but because it's a colony game, it's not so so dominant. The first half of my game here was really ugly. I like develop's synergy with Governor/Gold/KC/Province/Platinum but I didn't use it well (especially turn 12 or something, where I missed a chance to develop gold into a topdecked Governor/KC). Fortunately I pull this game together in the end. I have enough of a lead that my opponent doesn't appear to have enough to end the game in a win on his last turn, though he sure sets me up for a megaturn. I do get a big time megaturn, emptying 3 piles and getting 50 points on my last turn. But there's no way I would have won this against a better player.

I thought these sets were super interesting, and my play was not great. Which strategies were dominant on these boards? How could I have improved my play? Especially, which order should I be picking up engine components here?

[shark_bait]

Watchtower/Haggler is such an OP combo.  Even when you're greening you can ensure good next hands by placing the gained cards from Haggler on top of the deck.  Abuse this combo by getting a good Hamlet split as that is the only reliable village (aside from Tribute).  Monument is not good for this deck.  It is a and Terminal the points are inconsequential as this board will snowball heavily.  Better to keep that action slot for something useful in running your engine like Watchtower or Haggler.

IMO, Don't open with Develop in Game 2.  Certainly get one later down the road as Developing a Gold into a KC/Governor is extremely powerful.  You want to prioritize getting a 7 Copper Mint as fast as possible.  To do that you need good draw.  I would probably go Silver/Silver and concentrate on getting 2-3 Governors quickly.  Then get a KC.  Then KC a Governor and finish the trashing with Mint.  Once that is done you've got a deck that can increase exponentially in power by mid turn Governor/Develop/KC shenanigans.  Don't forget about Expand as a way to circumvent the strict TfB rules of Governor/Develop.

[Dsell]

IMO, Don't open with Develop in Game 2.  Certainly get one later down the road as Developing a Gold into a KC/Governor is extremely powerful.  You want to prioritize getting a 7 Copper Mint as fast as possible.  To do that you need good draw.  I would probably go Silver/Silver and concentrate on getting 2-3 Governors quickly.  Then get a KC.  Then KC a Governor and finish the trashing with Mint.  Once that is done you've got a deck that can increase exponentially in power by mid turn Governor/Develop/KC shenanigans.  Don't forget about Expand as a way to circumvent the strict TfB rules of Governor/Develop.

Yeah, I don't love my opening. I'm trying to get better with develop and I like to try fancy tricks that only -Stef- can actually pull off.

I'm pretty sure I didn't notice Mint at first, though. Like, I was really sleeping through the start of this game. When would you have picked up a develop? Grab a market sometime and use the extra buy? Bite the bullet and spend a lot of money on one when you really need it? Or just grab one on a dud hand?

[Dsell]

Monument is not good for this deck.  It is a and Terminal the points are inconsequential as this board will snowball heavily.  Better to keep that action slot for something useful in running your engine like Watchtower or Haggler.

How would you have opened here? I considered Masq/Silver. I thought Monument would be easily spammable though.

[dondon151]

I'm only going to give my thoughts on game 1.

Masq is a card to watch out for in any engine kingdom. Here I think you should have definitely opened with one. Haggler also goes great in a Watchtower engine since it doesn't draw cards and Watchtowers in hand can put all of the gained cards on top of the deck, and there are so many good cards here to get that can help you. Don't worry about trashing too aggressively, because you can gain engine components really quickly (ideally) and you can pick up a couple of Warehouses, which synergize with Watchtower. But you do want a little bit of trashing.

How to go about getting GMs is an interesting question. You can try to buy them outright, but I think you'll end up getting them more easily if you just grab them with Haggler off Province buys. I think Monument is kind of a trap because with Hamlet as the only +action card in the kingdom, and with Watchtower, Haggler, and potentially even Rabble contesting for those actions, you won't have any left over to play extra Monuments. Bishop can make a big impact in the endgame, where it can trash expensive things gained off Haggler for lots of VP, or even trash Provinces if ahead.

In an actual game, I'd imagine that winning the Hamlet split would be a huge boon, though it's hard to say if it is worth sacrificing some early buys to deny your opponent Hamlets.

[WanderingWinder]

Monument is always good, but you have to look at opportunity cost - both what else could you have bought, and especially in this case, what else could you have played - you're limited by hamlets. If you want to try for monument spam, you will need tributes, and you'll need this to be reliable, but... this seems awfully slow.

I would guess there's a place for monument, but it's a small window, and you need to be RIGHT on top of it, because as Shark_Bait points out, you aren't likely to have time to get a dozen monument plays to overcome 2 provinces, or even 9 and a duchy. Unless you're opponent is so far behind that it doesn't matter anyway. But a couple points, or maybe 4 to overcome a duchy, 7 if they dip for 2 duchies... again, if you time it absolutely right, which is extraordinarily tricky - I would probably mess it up.

Bishop has a weird interaction with watchtower, in that it helps you get handsize down, but them too. This probably makes it quite good late, but again you need to be able to play enough actions, and how many hamlets do you have, and if you have that many, how many spare bad cards to you have to trash. So only late, when you are trashing expensive things, which also limits your opponent's usefulness. Maybe the timing window is such that they supplant monument, actually, so there's another opportunity cost for you.

[shark_bait]

Yeah, I don't love my opening. I'm trying to get better with develop and I like to try fancy tricks that only -Stef- can actually pull off.

I'm pretty sure I didn't notice Mint at first, though. Like, I was really sleeping through the start of this game. When would you have picked up a develop? Grab a market sometime and use the extra buy? Bite the bullet and spend a lot of money on one when you really need it? Or just grab one on a dud hand?

In a perfect world, you would pick up the Develop on the turn you trash with Mint.  If you get 2 Silver in hand with most of your Copper, then that should be a good turn.  You can could also trash a Silver for a Market and then use the extra buy for the Develop.  There should be a lot of ways to ensure that you don't waste a turn that could have been spent on something like Governor or KC.

Monument is not good for this deck.  It is a and Terminal the points are inconsequential as this board will snowball heavily.  Better to keep that action slot for something useful in running your engine like Watchtower or Haggler.

How would you have opened here? I considered Masq/Silver. I thought Monument would be easily spammable though.

Yeah, Masquerade/Silver is enough and the little bit of trashing is a bonus.  You really need that Haggler if you like that as you want to be able to pick up multiple engine components at the same time.  It took your opponent awhile to gain the Hamlets.  If you can pick them up a bit earlier and deny them, I think the end game would be more smooth.  It's a very reactive kingdom and the way you play is very very dependent on how you draw each individual hand.

[Dsell]

So for game 1, the gameplan is to open Masq/Silver, heading for Grand Market (maybe off of Haggled province buys) and then pick up tons of Hamlets, Watchtowers, and Warehouses, eventually picking up a Bishop to get points off of Haggled province buys?

Or is it better to pick up lots of cheap engine parts early, grabbing only the occassional Haggler and Grand Market, then try to draw deck and go for double province+multiple haggler turns?

I also noticed an interesting little synergy between Rabble and Tribute, though I didn't wind up going for it at all. Seemed like it could be a nice draw combo if there wasn't better draw from Hamlet/Watchtower.