Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[thirtyseven]

Log: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/25/game-20120725-153053-d577e175.html

Cards: Ambassador, Familiar, Farming Village, Fishing Village, Goons, Jester, Navigator, Potion, Remodel, Scrying Pool, and Transmute

I had no clue where to start here, but since I think Scrying Pool is a lot of fun (and of course Familiar being another important Potion card) and Ambassador not fun, I open Silver/Potion. My opponent opens FV/Navigator (Navigator?!?!). It's obvious he's going for a Goons engine because he is fortunate enough to get Goons on turns 3, 6, and 8. He gets an Ambassador and a Potion along the way, and has a double Goons turn on 10.

Meanwhile, I am out of luck early on with 2P on turn 3, but SP is a nice consolation prize at least... still unfortunate. I would have gotten Familiar on turn 6, but since he Goonsed me I had to settle for another SP. I load up on FVs as well and finally get my first Familiar on turn 8. I get a Goons on turn 9. Jumping ahead, I buy Remodels on turns 16 and 18, hoping to remodel Goons to Province if need be. That proves to be unnecessary, since on a double Goons turn I get to buy the last Goons (FVs long gone) and the last Curse to win it.

This was a really fun game! I had no idea which direction to go, so I chose Potion cards/FV first and then moved to Goons once I saw how effective they were. In the end we were split on FVs and Goons, although he got his Goons much earlier. I went Potion a lot earlier and had 4 Familiars to his 0. Would you have used Ambassador on this board? How would you play this power board differently?

[DWetzel]

I'm not necessarily good (understatement  ), but I might consider Ambassador/Potion, with the idea of getting a few Fishing Villages and Goons and as many Scrying Pools as I can get, along with another Ambassador and maybe a Transmute in a pinch(!) to clear the non-actions from my deck as much as possible.  Goal would be to get to something like Scrying Pool (draw bunch of deck, hit potion) - Scrying Pool (draw rest of deck) - 3x FV/4x Goons or something and just accumulate stupid Goons points.

The tricky part is getting to the Goons, of course.  It may be worth Ambassador/Silver or something to get one early, and pick up a Potion in the second shuffle.

[dondon151]

Familiar is ignorable in the presence of an engine with Ambassador.

[shark_bait]

Scrying Pool will not be good if your deck isn't slick.  Therefore priority numero uno for me is trimming my deck.  This means opening Ambassador/Ambassador while picking up FV's with subsequent $3's.  Grab your potion when you have $4.  And then Scrying Pool at $2P.  Then work your way up to Goons.  At this point, continue to pile drive the Villages, Goons and even a Navigator or two would be useful for making the most effective use of your SP's.  You will have won the Ambassador war, so Jester is not necessary because your opponent will not have that good of cards.

[Kirian]

This is an engine board (FV+SP+Goons), and engines love Ambassador.  The aim should be to thin out your deck as much as possible, then start buying engine parts.  With a thin enough deck, two Ambassadors will neatly reflect any Curses thrown by Familiar, so Familiar is ignorable (as Cursers often are on Ambassador boards).  Open Amb/FV, get Amb+Silver on shuffle two, then Potion in the next shuffle if possible.  You'll need the early Silver to pick up your first Goons, but once you have that first Goons you should be able to ignore cash.  Consider the following (solitaire):

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/25/game-20120725-191533-ab71f6f3.html

Obviously the last couple of turns are meaningless, but even with Curses flying, the Ambassadors will keep your deck clean, and the stacks of FV and Goons will make SP unstoppable.

[shark_bait]

Open Amb/FV.....

Has this argument ever been resolved?

[verikt]

ambassador potion. as soon as you had a fishing village buy transmute scrying pool and return coppers, transmute estates to gold. absolutely ignore familiar. scrying pool, fishing village goons. worst case buy a second ambassador. you could be drawing your whole deck, ignoring his discard attack and returning your extra copper buys with ambassador while he's dealing with a bloated deck.

[eHalcyon]

ambassador potion. as soon as you had a fishing village buy transmute scrying pool and return coppers, transmute estates to gold. absolutely ignore familiar. scrying pool, fishing village goons. worst case buy a second ambassador. you could be drawing your whole deck, ignoring his discard attack and returning your extra copper buys with ambassador while he's dealing with a bloated deck.

Why would you want Transmute?  Ambassador will do a better job, clearing up to two cards at a time and slowing down your opponent as well.  You don't really want the Gold because it will just get in the way of your SP.  Going after Transmute would just be so very slow.

[verikt]

Why would you want the transmute? Because amb fishing village transmute estate to gold will get you to goons faster than buying fishing villages or silver will.

[RisingJaguar]

Why would you want the transmute? Because amb fishing village transmute estate to gold will get you to goons faster than buying fishing villages or silver will.

That's a neat little trick, but I doubt gold is the card you wanna stuff your deck with, especially at the cost of a buy and transmute to set that up.  I think the time is much better spent buying another scrying pool.

Although I do agree with the general sentiment that getting money quickly is more of a key than most ambassador heavy games.

[verikt]

That's a neat little trick, but I doubt gold is the card you wanna stuff your deck with, especially at the cost of a buy and transmute to set that up.  I think the time is much better spent buying another scrying pool.

Who says it's at the cost of a buy? If you draw amb 2 coppers potion I'd say you'd be better off returning the 2 coppers and buying transmute than getting another scrying pool.

[blueblimp]

Familiar is ignorable in the presence of an engine with Ambassador.

I disagree. If Amb returns 2 curses to the supply, a familiar play throws one of those right back. Also, if you return 2 of your curses and then play a familiar, it sends another curse. Keep in mind that, unless trashed, those 10 curses are going to be somewhere, and with multiple familiar plays per turn, they aren't going to be in the supply. I'd rather they are in your deck than mine.

That said, with so many power cards here, familiar is maybe not a priority.

[dondon151]

I disagree. If Amb returns 2 curses to the supply, a familiar play throws one of those right back. Also, if you return 2 of your curses and then play a familiar, it sends another curse. Keep in mind that, unless trashed, those 10 curses are going to be somewhere, and with multiple familiar plays per turn, they aren't going to be in the supply. I'd rather they are in your deck than mine.

My point is that not only are you returning Curses as a defense, but once your engine is up and running, you don't need a Familiar to throw all of the Curses at your opponent. You lose a lot of tempo trying to pick up a Familiar.

[RisingJaguar]

That's a neat little trick, but I doubt gold is the card you wanna stuff your deck with, especially at the cost of a buy and transmute to set that up.  I think the time is much better spent buying another scrying pool.

Who says it's at the cost of a buy? If you draw amb 2 coppers potion I'd say you'd be better off returning the 2 coppers and buying transmute than getting another scrying pool.

Yeah in the short term it sounds okay, it just seems like a lot of work for a gold.  Then the transmute gets a little... useless near the end although maybe i'm missing something here? 

[HiveMindEmulator]

That's a neat little trick, but I doubt gold is the card you wanna stuff your deck with, especially at the cost of a buy and transmute to set that up.  I think the time is much better spent buying another scrying pool.

Who says it's at the cost of a buy? If you draw amb 2 coppers potion I'd say you'd be better off returning the 2 coppers and buying transmute than getting another scrying pool.

Yeah in the short term it sounds okay, it just seems like a lot of work for a gold.  Then the transmute gets a little... useless near the end although maybe i'm missing something here?

Well at least it's a useless action, which Scrying Pool can draw right through. And at best you can grab an extra Duchy with it at the end. I think Transmute works nice with Ambassador in general, since it gets your economy up without having to spend much coin ever, and the general slowness of Transmute doesn't matter all that much in the Ambassador game.

[Kirian]

Open Amb/FV.....

Has this argument ever been resolved?

I'm uncertain.  The argument is usually Amb/Amb vs. Amb/Silver.  Amb/FV is a different animal that would be worth testing.  In this particular case, though, FV all but guarantees Potion/Amb on shuffle 2.

Against an opponent who ignores Amb, I'd imagine Amb/Amb is not as big a deal.

[Morgrim7]

Open Amb/Amb, pursue Scrying Pool/Goons/Fishing Village. Maybe even pick up one or two Familiar later in the game once you can pretty consistently draw your deck.

[qmech]

Ambassador/Fishing Village is my favourite Ambassador opening as the Fishing Village acts as a Silver, providing the same brake on destroying your economy, and all but eliminates bad collisions after you pick up your second Ambassador on the first reshuffle.

[DG]

Nobody has mentioned jester yet but jester is good here too if you have a spare 5 coins. They are so good that I wouldn't dismiss a strategy with a high jester: goons ratio.

Familiars can't be dismissed but they do need to be well timed.

[thirtyseven]

Yeah, DG, especially with a top-deck inspector like Scrying Pool

Thanks for all the input so far, everyone.