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[popsofctown]

I literally have no understanding or idea, I just guess at it.

[Tables]

Well, when there's Colonies on the board, definitely.

If not, I think it depends on the board. If I'm building an engine, probably. If I haven't got a Gold yet (and not an excessive number of silver), probably. If I already have an early Gold and it's a big money type board, then... it's possibly worth it. Otherwise probably not.

[Jedit]

Well, when there's Colonies on the board, definitely.

If not, I think it depends on the board. If I'm building an engine, probably. If I haven't got a Gold yet (and not an excessive number of silver), probably. If I already have an early Gold and it's a big money type board, then... it's possibly worth it. Otherwise probably not.

If you haven't got a Gold or an excessive amount of Silver, you're probably not going to be buying a Grand Market.

[qmech]

The more general question is "When should you buy a Grand Market?"  Grand Market works well in engines, as it provides a bit of everything you need (it's a great card to KC).  In a money game, GM will do much less for you and you almost always want Province over GM, although you're happy to take GM over Gold if it comes up.  In an engine game you need to make the same judgement that you'd need to make with any engine deck about whether it's time to stop building and start greening.

[Tables]

Well, when there's Colonies on the board, definitely.

If not, I think it depends on the board. If I'm building an engine, probably. If I haven't got a Gold yet (and not an excessive number of silver), probably. If I already have an early Gold and it's a big money type board, then... it's possibly worth it. Otherwise probably not.

If you haven't got a Gold or an excessive amount of Silver, you're probably not going to be buying a Grand Market.

It's not unusual to draw 3 Silver, 2 Copper once you've gotten to about 4 silvers in deck.

[popsofctown]

It's not unusual to be loved, by Mother Luck

[Tombolo]

And when I draw GSCCE, it's not unusual to see me cryin'.

[PSGarak]

If my I'm going for Grand Markets and my opponent is not, if their deck isn't too unusual I'll let them start greening, and then green myself on my next turn. Grand Markets are powerful enough that you can purchase multiple victory cards per turn, so it's usually ok to spend as much time as possible investing in the engine.

[chwhite]

Well, when there's Colonies on the board, definitely.

If not, I think it depends on the board. If I'm building an engine, probably. If I haven't got a Gold yet (and not an excessive number of silver), probably. If I already have an early Gold and it's a big money type board, then... it's possibly worth it. Otherwise probably not.

If you haven't got a Gold or an excessive amount of Silver, you're probably not going to be buying a Grand Market.

Unless you have a Vault (or Horse Traders, or Peddlers/Conspirators, or any number of other things, though Vault is generally fastest).

[qmech]

And when I draw GSCCE, it's not unusual to see me cryin'.

I never realised that the UK school-leaving qualification is also a valid Dominion hand.

[Jedit]

If you haven't got a Gold or an excessive amount of Silver, you're probably not going to be buying a Grand Market.

Unless you have a Vault (or Horse Traders, or Peddlers/Conspirators, or any number of other things, though Vault is generally fastest).

Hence my use of the word "probably".  It's possible to buy a GM with a good terminal money card (or Oasis/Peddler/Tournament) plus a couple of Silvers or a Quarry - though that again is back to having lots of Silver - but unless you have Vault in your kingdom, odds are on that you will need a Gold.  I'm sure you can provide many counterexamples, but it would be fairly pointless as they all boil down to chance in the draw or chance in the kingdom setup.  I accept the odds are not outlandish, I just think it's more likely to work the other way.

[Kahryl]

Just about never buy a GM over a province. But always buy one over a gold. And buy two over a province (if you have $12 and a +buy and don't have four coppers)

GM is just too slow on non-colony boards, usually. A better plan is to Upgrade your way to them.

[blueblimp]

(Let's assume that you actually want a Province, which obviously is not always true, e.g. Colonies, Goons, etc.) Possibly ridiculous rule of thumb: if you expect to be able to play it four or more times before the game ends. The reasoning being that, apart from the +buy, Grand Market is basically $2 that doesn't take space in your hand. You'd need to get that $2 four times to receive $8 total, the cost of a Province.

[shark_bait]

(Let's assume that you actually want a Province, which obviously is not always true, e.g. Colonies, Goons, etc.) Possibly ridiculous rule of thumb: if you expect to be able to play it four or more times before the game ends. The reasoning being that, apart from the +buy, Grand Market is basically $2 that doesn't take space in your hand. You'd need to get that $2 four times to receive $8 total, the cost of a Province.

Hmmm... I don't think that is quite right.  I would think you would just need the $2 to get you from Duchy range to Province range a total of 2 times.  That gives you 12 points from 2 Provinces as opposed to 12 points from 1 Province/2 Duchy.

[blueblimp]

(Let's assume that you actually want a Province, which obviously is not always true, e.g. Colonies, Goons, etc.) Possibly ridiculous rule of thumb: if you expect to be able to play it four or more times before the game ends. The reasoning being that, apart from the +buy, Grand Market is basically $2 that doesn't take space in your hand. You'd need to get that $2 four times to receive $8 total, the cost of a Province.

Hmmm... I don't think that is quite right.  I would think you would just need the $2 to get you from Duchy range to Province range a total of 2 times.  That gives you 12 points from 2 Provinces as opposed to 12 points from 1 Province/2 Duchy.

Good point, although going from Duchy to Province twice is a total of $6, which is more like 3 plays of GM. And the flipside is that if a play of GM only takes you from a Copper to an Estate, then that play only got you 1 extra point, instead of the 1.5 points you want on average over 4 plays.

[shark_bait]

Yeah... 2 plays is really the best case scenario.  And 4 plays may be a little on the worst case scenario.  I guess for BM type games, 3 would probably be the happy medium then?

[blueblimp]

Also my analysis missed that, by buying the GM, you are avoiding junking your deck with a Province. So maybe 3 is fair. It illustrates why GM is weak in money games, anyway.

[shark_bait]

Yeah... with little draw/trashing, you just won't play it nearly enough.  Even if you get it semi early by say turn 6/7, you're still fighting an uphill battle to play it enough.