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Author Topic: I will try to post a game here every day.  (Read 39426 times)

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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2012, 02:48:05 pm »
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Hmmmmk.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/15/game-20120715-112252-284ea5ec.html

I won this one, but I'm curious if I can do better.

What I went for: Hoard/Salvager/Great Hall
What he went for: Almost BM/Vault
What I wound up with: PROVINCE RUSH

Hoard is one of my personal favorite cards.  I almost always go for it if there's anything resembling support (sometimes even when there's not really!) but it seems to work out more often than not. (although checking council room, my win rate isn't as special as it used to be, and I do better without >_>)  My game plan here was to Salvage and Vault the Estates and Duchies I accumulated, and use the Salvager +buy to pick up some Great Halls on my way to a decent big money type situation.  I always commit very thoroughly to Hoard, even though I only take one or two...I will almost always buy as many victory cards as possible with Hoard hands, even if I have to take crappy ones.  Luckily here, I was able to slingshot to Province fairly quickly, and didn't even have to touch Duchies or Estates.  On the other hand, I only hit Salvager/Hoard once.  I found myself scoring Provinces before my opponent's Colony deck could get off the ground, so I decided to keep it that way and focus on draining Provinces instead of trying to build up a lead I might not've been able to hold at the Colony level.  He tried Embargoing Province but I took the Curses in the face and managed to end the game in time.

-How much do you guys even like Hoard in this game?  I feel like I am more pro-Hoard than most here, and admittedly it can struggle in Colony games, but I think Salvager and Vault and GH were good enablers.
-Was it a good idea to go for Provinces and try to end game early?  I feel it threw him off his tempo, but it was kinda risky, especially with his Embargo that wound up on Provinces.
-Even given my decision to rush Provinces, I am not sure how I should have prioritized them vs. Colony or Plat when I had enough money available.  There were a few times I wound up with 9 or 11 (turns 11 and 18, for example) and my responses were mostly random.

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ehunt

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2012, 03:14:40 pm »
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Hmmmmk.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/15/game-20120715-112252-284ea5ec.html

I won this one, but I'm curious if I can do better.

What I went for: Hoard/Salvager/Great Hall
What he went for: Almost BM/Vault
What I wound up with: PROVINCE RUSH

Hoard is one of my personal favorite cards.  I almost always go for it if there's anything resembling support (sometimes even when there's not really!) but it seems to work out more often than not. (although checking council room, my win rate isn't as special as it used to be, and I do better without >_>)  My game plan here was to Salvage and Vault the Estates and Duchies I accumulated, and use the Salvager +buy to pick up some Great Halls on my way to a decent big money type situation.  I always commit very thoroughly to Hoard, even though I only take one or two...I will almost always buy as many victory cards as possible with Hoard hands, even if I have to take crappy ones.  Luckily here, I was able to slingshot to Province fairly quickly, and didn't even have to touch Duchies or Estates.  On the other hand, I only hit Salvager/Hoard once.  I found myself scoring Provinces before my opponent's Colony deck could get off the ground, so I decided to keep it that way and focus on draining Provinces instead of trying to build up a lead I might not've been able to hold at the Colony level.  He tried Embargoing Province but I took the Curses in the face and managed to end the game in time.

-How much do you guys even like Hoard in this game?  I feel like I am more pro-Hoard than most here, and admittedly it can struggle in Colony games, but I think Salvager and Vault and GH were good enablers.
-Was it a good idea to go for Provinces and try to end game early?  I feel it threw him off his tempo, but it was kinda risky, especially with his Embargo that wound up on Provinces.
-Even given my decision to rush Provinces, I am not sure how I should have prioritized them vs. Colony or Plat when I had enough money available.  There were a few times I wound up with 9 or 11 (turns 11 and 18, for example) and my responses were mostly random.

Your strategy in this game is fantastic. It's rare the province rush is right in a colony game, but in this game, we see two of hoard's best friends: salvager and great hall, and one of province-rushing's best friends: vault.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2012, 11:19:59 am »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/16/game-20120716-065305-281ed527.html

What I went for: Minion/Oasis/Smuggler
What he went for: Pretty much the same
What I wound up with: ....Essentially what I wanted.

This was nuts.  Tons of great 5's, and some interesting Minion interactions.  I figured this was a Smuggler board if ever there was one- lots of great 5's, none of which really clashed with each other.  I figured Minion was the key card here, with a cute combo with Oasis and a decent counter to Torturer, so that's what I went for, and apparently he did too.  We both picked up Torturers because...Torturer.  I picked up a "why the heck not" Forge with a $7 turn, but only managed to trash two coppers with it over the course of the game, which surprised me a bit.  I feel like shuffle luck bit me a bit- even with all the Bazaars, my terminals kept clashing with each other or Minion discards, and that kinda sucked.  For that reason, I never got around to Merchant Ship even though I wanted to.

-I broke PPR here, because I felt my deck was holding up better than his and there was no +buy to outpace him on Duchies.  Good idea or bad idea?  I break PPR somewhat often when I feel it's my best shot, but I could probably use a better handle of when that's advisable.
-Can I blame Forge's uselessness on shuffle luck, or was it a bad buy?  Or...should I have prioritized it more often? (I discarded it to Minion a lot)
-Smugglers IS pretty rockin' on this board, right?  It's one of those cards I seem to like more than most, but I am fairly convinced this was a good place for it.
-Should I have gone Torturer earlier? (or ditched Minion altogether for Torturer/Bazaar chaining?)  Worked in Merchant Ship at some point?
-I love Philosopher's Stone, but it wasn't worth it here, right?
-Maybe less Treasure?  ....Or more?
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carstimon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2012, 12:39:38 pm »
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-I'm not the best at endgame, but I think you did the right thing breaking ppr.  In his last 8 turns he hit $8 once.
-Forge is a bad buy.  You're playing with oasis and minion.  You're probably going to have 3 or 4 cards in your hand when you're ready to play forge.  That's rarely going to be enough for a nice trashing.  If you had gotten more torturers, then you would be much happier with your forge.
-Yeah smugglers is fine
-I don't think you have enough +action for merchant ships.  Fitting torturer chains into your deck is going to be a little bit awkward:
--If it weren't for minions, you would buy your first torturer before bazaar.  But if you want your minions first, you need to get enough bazaars into your deck so that you don't play your torturer and draw minions dead.  So you have these options: run out minions, buy like 3 bazaars, alternate torturer/bazaar OR torturer, bazaars (about 3) & smuggling minions maybe, then more minions, bazaars, torturers in some magical ratio.  It's really too many $5s when you have no awesome way to get them.
--With your 4 card hands from opponent's and your minions, it's harder to get bazaar/torturer together.  You can also get bazaar, minion discard, torturer; but that's also not that easy.
-No philosophers stone; too expensive and you don't need more treasure and if you play 5 minions that's 5 less cards for phil stone.
-You want less treasure.  Prefer oasis to silver after you get about 2 silvers (so you can hit $5 for your first minions) and minions/bazaars/torturers to gold.

I think I would play to win the minion split at first.  If I get 6+ minions, I get oasis/bazaar or duchy/province.  Otherwise, I try to set up a torturer chain.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2012, 12:38:06 am »
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Had a lot of trouble today finding a game worthy of submission- most of them were either games where my friend and I derped around with kc/golem/tac boards or games where I made some obvious and dumb mistake.  Nevertheless!

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/17/game-20120717-211717-6e0a745c.html

What I went for: Island/Smugglers/IGG
What he went for: IGG RUSH/Tournament/Lighthouse
What I wound up with: IGG/ISLAND RUSH

I'm pretty into Island, and didn't initially see Remodel on the board in the mass of 4's, so the plan was to Smuggle whatever he got, Island away curses and estates, grab an IGG or two, and see what happened.  I quickly got sucked into the IGG fight, and grabbed Remodel when I noticed it was available.  I split IGG 6-4, and then by then most of the Islands were gone.  I thought about trying to 3-pile quickly, but he picked up a Province to take the lead.  I tripped over a Province myself shortly thereafter, though, and he had a string of bad hands, allowing me to drain the Islands without any issues.

-It worked out well, but I don't think I needed both Remodel AND Islands.  And Tournament is as tempting as always, too.  And Horse Traders....what should I prefer at $4 here?
-I suppose it was a good idea on Turn 16, but should I have Remodeled the Curse into an Estate on 11?
-....Smugglers seems to work nicely for an IGG rush, or maybe that's just me.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2012, 01:11:56 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/18/game-20120718-095737-96f19b2d.html

What I went for: Goons/Familiar/Salvager
What he went for: Lab/Salvager/Goons
What I wound up with: What I wanted plus OMG SILVER

I went for Familiar off the bat, and was surprised when I wasn't fought at all for it.  I think he planned on Salvaging the Curses, and it went pretty well for him, I suppose.  I picked up a Salvager myself, and focused on hitting $6 for Goons while he built a Lab engine.  I picked up a Lab myself- would've liked more, but only hit 5 once before late game.  I kept rolling with Goons and Familiar, going very light on actions.  He was naturally able to Province better than I was, but I actually managed to surge from behind on VP and +Buy, and sneak away with the win at the last second.

-I had no idea what to do with all the $4 turns I kept getting.  I was wary of terminal clash, so I stayed at one Salvager, I don't think I needed multiple Potions, Spy and Oracle didn't impress me, and I didn't want Swindler when I was poised to drain curses on my opponent.  I wound up with a buncha Silver, but is that a bad call?
-Goons.  I know the adage of Dominion is "one good thing beats two decent things," but that applies less with Goons buys, right?  I feel that Silver/Silver was the right choice for my $6 Goons turns, at least this game, but I'd like to hear arguments for Gold/Copper or Gold/nothing if I'm wrong.
-I thought three Familiars was probably too much, but I managed to give him the 9th and 10th Curses on the last turn.  Should I have gotten more?  Fewer?
-Should I have picked up Expand earlier?  It could've helped in endgame, but I don't think I ever hit $7 exactly and my Provinces seem kinda crucial.  Or...would Forge have been good since Goons decks tend to be junky?
-I was worried about terminal clash, but I don't think it was ever an issue.  Could I maybe have picked up an extra one or two?
-How viable is it to just eat Curses like that?  I've had a few games like this where I am the only one picking up a good Curser, and laugh maniacally as I dump all 10 on the other guy, but then as often as not they still give me a good run or even pick up the win.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 01:14:40 pm by Tombolo »
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methods of rationality

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2012, 01:37:32 pm »
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Terminals- In a 40 card deck, 4 terminals, none of them being terminal draw cards, Is not too much. I think You could have picked up 1 or 2 more. Also, salvager collision is not so bad because you could just trash 1 with the other.
Ignoring cursers - I only do it with masq or amb on the board or a really good bane on a young witch board, Or workshop-gardens (+ its variants - ironworks gardens, ironworks silk roads etc). That being said, familiar is probably the worse curser, so I could see ignoring it every now and then especially on a 5 -2 split. But I think you were correct to not ignore it here.
Goons- I think gold nothing is usually better than silver, silver but I could be wrong.
Expand/Forge- Outside of engines I don't really like expand and forge (Well forge is useful if you are getting cursed but you were not over here)
3 Familiars- Is usually the correct number to buy
Other comments- I would have opened swindler, potion since, in case he goes for familiar, swindler might prevent him from buying one till after the second reshuffle but I guess he didn't go for it anyway.
Goons/familiar - this is anti synergy because the attack of goons is not as potent if he could just discard the curses. I guess familiar makes the game longer which is good for goons, so maybe it was OK.
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ehunt

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2012, 02:27:41 pm »
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Your opponent would have won if he'd salvaged his salvager on turn 9 and picked up a forge. I think lab/forge may be enough to make familiar ignore-able, although it's a gamble. I lost a tournament game (I think to shark_bait) doing this. Certainly tactician forge is enough to make it ignoreable. On the flip side lab forge definitely loses to mountebank.

Basically: your opponent has a roughly 30% chance of not being able to get a familiar after the first shuffle. If this happens, lab/forge should crush familiar.

Otherwise, he gets a familiar, and then I think it's roughly 60-40 that he'll be able to do significant damage before you get a forge and enough labs to take advantage of the forge.
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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2012, 02:33:43 pm »
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Labs are a very strong support card here. They would have helped you cycle the familiars quickly and could have helped the trashing cards to function despite goons inflicting 3 card hands. If you have labs you don't need more than 2 familiars and can look to forge the deck into value. The drawing and cycling in the early game is more important than extra goons points (buying 2 silvers).
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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2012, 03:08:36 pm »
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Your opponent would have won if he'd salvaged his salvager on turn 9 and picked up a forge. I think lab/forge may be enough to make familiar ignore-able, although it's a gamble. I lost a tournament game (I think to shark_bait) doing this. Certainly tactician forge is enough to make it ignoreable. On the flip side lab forge definitely loses to mountebank.

Basically: your opponent has a roughly 30% chance of not being able to get a familiar after the first shuffle. If this happens, lab/forge should crush familiar.

Otherwise, he gets a familiar, and then I think it's roughly 60-40 that he'll be able to do significant damage before you get a forge and enough labs to take advantage of the forge.

You did.  But it wasn't the presence of Familiar that was key.  It was scheme.  Without Scheme I would not have filled you with curses before you got your Lab/Forge up and running.  So in a general sense, I would say that Lab/Forge > Familiar
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carstimon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2012, 04:19:36 pm »
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I don't like the silver/silver.  I think gold/nothing or lab/nothing or goons/nothing will do you better.  You get to play your goons more in the end, and you are better set up to buy provinces.  Of course buy the copper if you are close to the end.

I don't think you want the expand.  You would always prefer to play a goons instead of an expand.  The only thing good to expand is estate->lab.  You trash your estates with salvager.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2012, 01:14:00 pm »
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What about if I have 2-4 Goons in play?  Is using more buys more viable then?  I almost always maximize my Goons buys even if I have to resort to Copper, so if I'm playing that wrong I should re-evaluate.  Is that a good general principle, or just on that board?

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/19/game-20120719-095725-1f0d8e0b.html

What I went for: Random terminals/Nobles
What he went for: Apothecary/Coppersmith/Bridge
What I wound up with: An unfocused mess that somehow got 7 Provinces

I don't even know what I was doing here, and I feel like it shows, but I somehow won.  I suspect it's mostly because my opponent was trying to experiment.  I am certain I bought too many terminals, which was mitigated somewhat by Nobles....but Nobles probably shouldn't be relied on heavily as a +Action, I reckon.  The thing here was that I didn't see any real combos- just a jumble of mediocre stuff, most of it terminal.  I think I won because I Swindled his Swindler early on and he didn't notice until towards the end. >_>  Swindler did me proud here- hit several Coppers, and gave him a few Lookouts, both of which really hampered what he was trying to do.

-.....What even do I do on this board?  The more I think about it, the more I think maybe I should have just gone BMX with Swindler and/or Explorer or something.  Some boards I just skip the whole "strategy" idea and buy random shiny things, and once in a while it works out.  This is one of them.
-What do I prefer at $5 in midgame here?  With a bunch of terminals already, Explorer's a hard sell, HoP is unlikely to do much better than $4 ever, Bridge would be better if there were cheap cards I wanted, more Lookout or Swindler would be overkill, Coppersmith....is Coppersmith, and Silver just seems lame at $5.
-Apothecary/Coppersmith/Bridge seems a decentish engine.  What went wrong for my opponent besides Swindlers?
-How bad of an idea is it to pick up a bunch of Nobles primarily for +Action?
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carstimon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2012, 01:44:50 pm »
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What about if I have 2-4 Goons in play?  Is using more buys more viable then?  I almost always maximize my Goons buys even if I have to resort to Copper, so if I'm playing that wrong I should re-evaluate.  Is that a good general principle, or just on that board?
Well, there are different types of goons games:
1. It's not feasible to play multiple goons, because of no village or no draw...
1a) the board is decently fast otherwise.  Most of your points will be coming from provinces.  Then you should look at goons as a good attack, and worth some bonus vp.  It's not worth it to buy the copper, because your main priority should be hitting $8.
1b) you think you're in for a slog.  Hard attacks, no powerful ways to get to $8, no good trashing.  Then I think you usually want to buy the copper.  It might end on piles of things worth less than $8... duchies, curses, something else?
2. You can play more than one goons in a turn.  This takes more finesse.  You need to decide how many goons you can reasonably expect to be playing.  If you play n goons you're guaranteed n^2 points.  You want to keep your engine going until you see a 3-pile ending in sight, THEN start buying copper.  Be very careful of getting excited when you hit 2 goons in play if it's feasible to get 3 or 4 or 5.
Compare my turn 11 here to my opponents turn 12:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120630-050145-838e4524.html
my opponent I think too vp tokens too early.
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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2012, 02:17:12 pm »
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Quote
What even do I do on this board?  The more I think about it, the more I think maybe I should have just gone BMX with Swindler and/or Explorer or something.

That's about it. You probably don't even need the explorer since your opponent will swindle your treasures into less useful actions. The swindler pretty much messes up the apothecary.
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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2012, 08:55:36 am »
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Your opponent would have won if he'd salvaged his salvager on turn 9 and picked up a forge. I think lab/forge may be enough to make familiar ignore-able, although it's a gamble. I lost a tournament game (I think to shark_bait) doing this. Certainly tactician forge is enough to make it ignoreable. On the flip side lab forge definitely loses to mountebank.

Basically: your opponent has a roughly 30% chance of not being able to get a familiar after the first shuffle. If this happens, lab/forge should crush familiar.

Otherwise, he gets a familiar, and then I think it's roughly 60-40 that he'll be able to do significant damage before you get a forge and enough labs to take advantage of the forge.

You did.  But it wasn't the presence of Familiar that was key.  It was scheme.  Without Scheme I would not have filled you with curses before you got your Lab/Forge up and running.  So in a general sense, I would say that Lab/Forge > Familiar

oh man, there was scheme that game? i'm a noob. (clarification: i'm not a noob for miscalculating lab/forge vs. scheme/familiar, anyone could do that. i'm a noob for remembering the basic narrative of that game without remembering scheme! that's scary. it reminds me of when people who are new to dominion will tell me yeah man i had this awesome game where i bought all the gardens and coppers with markets. and then you find out there was workshop on the board, untouched pile of ten...)
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2012, 01:47:22 pm »
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/20/game-20120720-103443-3d426657.html

What I went for: Trading Post/Goons/Warehouse
What he went for: Envoy/Trading Post

Hrm, I tried the newer, softer Goons strategy, and came up a bit short.  I figured Trading Post would be helpful here, so I opened Warehouse/Feast to get it quickly and cycle it through often.  Even though I intended to not let the Goons buy lure me into Copper, my brain still went "Goons game?  Trashing's good," so I was focused on that even more than hitting $6 at first.  He ramped up more quickly than I did, and I almost caught up at the end, but I couldn't quite seal the deal.

-Did I maybe want Envoy sooner, or to use it a bit more?  I was worried about terminal clash, and only picked it up at all because I noticed how effectively he had used it.  I wasn't quite as action-light as him, though, so it didn't work as well for me.  I'm wondering if Envoy/BM wasn't the way to go here, though, maybe with a Goons or two or Warehouse in there somewhere.
-How was my Goonsing this time?  Were they even really worth pursuing?
-Did I resort to Duchies too early?  Too late?  I wasn't sure what to prefer in late/endgame at 5-7.
-Broke PPR.  Seem like a good idea?
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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2012, 02:37:16 pm »
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In a Goon's game with no village support, you don't want envoy at all.  Goons/BM is actually fairly powerful.  You attack your opponent and accrue VP tokens over time.  You want enough to play them consistently so 3 is probably fine.  The issue is that with 3, your Warehouse's/Envoy/TP become less effectual because you won't get the chance to play them.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2012, 05:11:31 pm »
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So Goons/BM beats Envoy/BM?  I should really figure out how to work the simulators.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/21/game-20120721-140124-cf6ce7f5.html

What I went for: Vineyard/Market/Haven
What he went for: Market/Bureaucrat?
What I wound up with: The slowest pile rush ever

I decided to try Vineyard here just for fun- I don't have much respect for Vineyard, but it seemed a decentish board to give it a shot with Market.  In retrospect, I don't think it was that great an idea, but things worked out okay somehow.  I am not sure how I managed to take control of this game, but my opponent was able to manage only three Provinces before I ended the game with a comfortable lead.  I tried to slingshot myself fairly quickly, knowing that Market was crucial to both picking up Vineyards and pumping them.  Salvager/Trading Post/Loan might have been overkill, but I dunno since I was able to Salvage them pretty quickly once they outlived their usefulness.  I went for Haven as my third pile since it was a cantrip, but I'm not sure how much it helped.  I figure I needed another cantrip to end the game on piles, though, and my options were fairly limited.  I figured I was kinda screwed with this strategy, but my opponent's deck never really seemed to kick in.  He got more Markets than I realized, which hurt my Vineyards a bit, but....by the time he started catching up in points, it was just a matter of a few more +Buy to shut the game down.

-...Was Vineyard actually that advisable here?  I was able to get Vineyard/Action or 2 actions almost every turn, but...they weren't particularly GREAT actions beyond the +Buy and chainability.
-Salvaging silver and gold- good idea or bad idea here?  It helped me out but I also found myself wishing I had a bit more buying power....but did I actually need that buying power when I was just going for 5P at most?
-On a related note, would it have been advisable to pick up more treasure at some point?
-I didn't really know what to Haven on most turns, since I rarely wanted Salvager and usually needed all the coin I could get.  I eventually just started using them on Vineyards.  Was that a good idea?
-Should I have mixed in more actions instead of going straight for 3-piling once my deck was sufficiently trimmed?  I don't think Forge was a good buy for this deck but maybe some Native Villages and a Bureaucrat or two might've pumped Vineyard more....but would it have been worth taking the time?  I was going for a rush but it was a pretty slow rush.
-Should I have waited longer to green?  My deck might've worked a bit more efficiently if I'd picked up more Markets and Havens before rushing green, but I figured since I needed to hit Potion 8 times it behooved me to start early.  Then again, it might've worked better to load up actions and then buy two Potions...but then he might've been able to pick up a Province or two and three-pile before I could really get rolling.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 05:14:58 pm by Tombolo »
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Rabid

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2012, 05:36:38 pm »
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I would have rushed Fools Gold on this board.
Opening Salvager / FG.
On any board without curses and with + buy, FG rush is an option.
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eHalcyon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2012, 06:18:01 pm »
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If you wanted to go Vineyards, you should probably have picked up at least a second Potion.  In that case, you can spend more time pumping up your deck, then grab two Potions and drive through your deck with cantrips to grab multiple Vineyards each turn.  More Markets would definitely have helped because there are TWO cheap action card options in Haven and NV.
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qmech

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2012, 04:53:55 am »
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Vineyards and Fool's Gold have a very interesting interaction.  Fool's Gold alone is not enough to get 8 Provinces, so Vineyards often have all the time they need.  The extra factor here is Salvager, which can be used by the Province player to accelerate the game end.  I can't get on Isotropic to test how quick it is though.

An extra Potion is always useful when buying Vineyards.

EDIT: It seems Salvager fixes the FG stalling problem nicely.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 05:51:35 am by qmech »
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ehunt

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2012, 02:46:16 am »
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I would, like you, have gone for vineyards instead of salvager + fool's gold on this board. I tend to underestimate fool's gold badly. Still, on this board, there's +buy, 2cost actions, light trashing, and cycling; vineyards are going to be really good. Certainly without fool's gold they would be dominant.

That being said, I think you make a mistake getting a trading post. You already have a loan, and a salvager. You don't want the silver that much, so trading post is basically trashing one card at a time. Vineyard, like scrying pool, is happy with pretty slow trashing; it doesn't need you to be aggressive. It also doesn't care much about money - yeah, money's ok in a vineyard deck, but +buy and finding your potion are both more important. You want as many markets as you can get. Really all you want to do is cycle your deck to find your potion over and over again. A turn where you buy a haven and a vineyard is a great turn for you. Also, two potions, definitely.
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ehunt

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2012, 02:47:57 am »
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Vineyards and Fool's Gold have a very interesting interaction.  Fool's Gold alone is not enough to get 8 Provinces, so Vineyards often have all the time they need.  The extra factor here is Salvager, which can be used by the Province player to accelerate the game end.  I can't get on Isotropic to test how quick it is though.

An extra Potion is always useful when buying Vineyards.

EDIT: It seems Salvager fixes the FG stalling problem nicely.

I'm not allowed to play on isotropic on pain of losing five hundred dollars, but do you think you can beat that score in 20 turns with vineyards? If you have enough +buy to buy an average of an action every turn and empty the vineyard pile, yes, else probably no. hmm... I think it's close.
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DStu

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2012, 05:06:46 am »
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I don't have much respect for Vineyard, but it seemed a decentish board to give it a shot with Market.

You should give them some more tries. In the beginning, I also really don't like them, but the more I play them the better they get. The point is (I think) that VY play (or can play) very very different from "normal" games. First, already mentioned, you usually want more than one Potion. Probably even 3. For the Potion, you spend $4, which gives you a benefit of about $2+bonus. And for this $2+bonus, you buy VPs almost worth a Province in the end. In this game. Often more.  You have the buys, you even have ways of getting rid of the Potions once you don't need them anymore, so just buy them.
Then, this board here was far from optimal for Vineyards. Market is quite good, and some trashing, but the rest is really not so strong. No real cehap Cantrip, a bad Village, nothing that enlarges your handsize, so you are stuck with fairly small hands. Haven is OK, but there are tons of cards which would fit in here.

In extreme VY games, you wouldn't even want "real" money. Some money comes from actions, the VPs comes from Potions, all you want is massive cheap Cantrips and +buys.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2012, 01:00:16 pm »
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I played SO MANY GAMES yesterday but none of them seemed worth posting.  Here's an interesting one from just now though:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/23/game-20120723-094300-c0fbe803.html

What I went for: Trader/Familiar
What he went for: Familiar/Lab/Trader

I won commandingly here, I think because Trader shut down Familiar so badly.  I am not sure I played optimally though.  I got Familiar on pace with my opponent, and went double Trader as soon after as possible.  He went very heavy Familiar, and pumped my deck with Silver as a result.  He still split curses 5-5 with me and managed to trash most of his, but I think it wound up helping more than hurting.  I thought briefly about Minion, but decided to see what happened if I ignored it- with Familiar and Trader, I figured the deck would be too full of Curse and Silver to really optimize Minion, and I figured those two were more important here.  It also didn't jive well with Caravan or Lab.  I picked up Caravan at 4, City at 5, and Gold at 6.  I would've preferred Lab, but I didn't hit 5 exactly until after Curses had drained.  Cities didn't fully activate though, and I had really low terminal density, so I guess that was a wash either way. 

-How was my early prioritizing?  I thought briefly about opening Trader over Potion just to get my defenses up quickly.  I was also unsure if double Trader was a good call that early, but if anything I might've wanted even more Trader-y goodness.
-Was ignoring Minion the right call here?  I think it was due to synergy but...it's freakin' Minion, so I don't know.
-Did I want more Cities or Labs?  Maybe some terminals?  I almost bought Lab at 6 a couple of times, and a City stack might've been nice even if they never fully activated....which would've given me enough +action for stuff like Adventurer, which might've been nice with a mostly silver deck.  It was resilient and quick enough, though, that more actions might've been a waste of time.
-Two Familiars.  Too many?  Not enough?  For a moment I even thought about ignoring them and seeing if I could just slingshot with Trader.  Might've gone triple Trader in that scenario.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:02:14 pm by Tombolo »
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