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[Kirian]

All,

In the last couple of days, you may have noticed a bit of a to-do about drheld's card counter addon for Chrome.  In particular, a tournament finalist who has previously held the #1 position on the isotropic leaderboard, and had more than a passing chance of winning, felt the need to remove himself from the tournament due to use of said card counter.

For those who haven't been following this, a screenshot of what the addon does is available in this post by blueblimp.  Many of the abilities of the addon have only been brought to light in the last few weeks.

Let me be perfectly clear: this addon is not, despite its name, a point counter.  It is a card counter.

It has been suggested that the addon could be modified so as to be invisible to those not running it.  This creates an untenable situation in which, sadly, cheaters will prosper.  Though there is no evidence that it has been done, just the fact that it could be done is problematic and anathema both to the community and sportsmanship in general.  I therefore make the following open, public statements:

1.  I call on the community to vociferously condemn use of the card counter, especially in tournament situations.
2.  I ask those who run online tournaments to disallow use of the card counter in their tournaments, and have already done so in mine.
3.  I ask drheld to remove his addon from github and the Chrome addon library.
4.  I ask dougz--if he has time, and insofar as it may be possible--to cause isotropic to be unavailable to those using the addon.
5.  I ask FunSockets to condemn the use of such a card counter, and ask them not to include such a mechanism inside their online implementation.
6.  I personally abjure users of the card counter, condemn it as tantamount to cheating, and refuse to play against you; I call on others to do the same.

It has been discussed for years whether automatic point counting is an acceptable variant.  There are good points on both sides, and on isotropic the official point counter can be turned on or off easily.  However, drheld's addon goes too far.  It is demonstrably not a point counter; it is a card counter, and is against the spirit of the game.  There are plenty of other games with perfect public information (chess, for instance); Dominion is not one of those.  Indeed, part of the skill of Dominion is counting what is in your deck and others' decks.  This card counter obviates that skill.

[Fabian]

"Many of the abilities of the addon have only been brought to light in the last few weeks."

I think this is kinda disingenuous. Just to be clear, what has changed in the last couple months is the way the information is being presented. All other functionality has been available for a year or something, and has been automatically typed in the chatbox ("type !details" etc) of every game that's been played with it. It has surprised me that some people have reacted so strongly, since I assumed 99% of the players on isotropic were aware of what the add-on did (since every game starts with the automated message).

[eHalcyon]

"Many of the abilities of the addon have only been brought to light in the last few weeks."

I think this is kinda disingenuous. Just to be clear, what has changed in the last couple months is the way the information is being presented. All other functionality has been available for a year or something, and has been automatically typed in the chatbox ("type !details" etc) of every game that's been played with it. It has surprised me that some people have reacted so strongly, since I assumed 99% of the players on isotropic were aware of what the add-on did (since every game starts with the automated message).

But apparently it doesn't?  Someone posted that one of the possible settings for the add-on is that it is invisible, but can be disabled.  So that means someone might be using it, but the message doesn't appear.  I don't think it's reasonable that people who'd rather not play with the counter would have to type !disable at the start of every game, just in case.

[Robz888]

But I did not understand that the information being presented to the player who used the addon was so much easier to comprehend. Actually, I'm shocked by it.

I actually like the point counter--I think it's a sensible extension of moving Dominion online--but just the one that isotropic provides. A card counter, as Kirian noted, goes way too far.

If it means not having the point counter at all, of course I prefer that to allowing some of the player a nice little card counter appearing next to the supply piles.

[Fabian]

eH,

Someone might have said that, but they're wrong. Someone said it's possible in principle to rewrite the code (as it apparently is possible for all Chrome extensions). No matter if the add-on is set to !disable or not, it will post a message at the start of each game, with or without the !disable line. If !disable is not possible, it will show up as a status message in the lobby, and will require the use of the isotropic point tracker.

Robz,

Just so we're clear though, you knew this extension was a card counter long before this debate of the last few days, right?

[blueblimp]

"Many of the abilities of the addon have only been brought to light in the last few weeks."

I think this is kinda disingenuous. Just to be clear, what has changed in the last couple months is the way the information is being presented. All other functionality has been available for a year or something, and has been automatically typed in the chatbox ("type !details" etc) of every game that's been played with it. It has surprised me that some people have reacted so strongly, since I assumed 99% of the players on isotropic were aware of what the add-on did (since every game starts with the automated message).

But apparently it doesn't?  Someone posted that one of the possible settings for the add-on is that it is invisible, but can be disabled.  So that means someone might be using it, but the message doesn't appear.  I don't think it's reasonable that people who'd rather not play with the counter would have to type !disable at the start of every game, just in case.

The message always appears at the beginning of the game. The status message is optional only if disabling is enabled, but whether or not the status message is enabled, the chat message always appears. It is impossible for anyone to play a game with a player using the extension unless they either: saw the status message when accepting the auto-match, OR chose not to disable the extension once the game started.

Furthermore, it is impossible to make the point counter invisible without using programming skill to change the source code. Yes, this is easy for someone who knows anything about programming. But... so what? (Edit: My point here being: cheaters gonna cheat.)

[Robz888]

eH,

Someone might have said that, but they're wrong. Someone said it's possible in principle to rewrite the code (as it apparently is possible for all Chrome extensions). No matter if the add-on is set to !disable or not, it will post a message at the start of each game, with or without the !disable line. If !disable is not possible, it will show up as a status message in the lobby, and will require the use of the isotropic point tracker.

Robz,

Just so we're clear though, you knew this extension was a card counter long before this debate of the last few days, right?

I only thought you could see how many cards, etc., if you typed !status. Whenever I was in a game where my opponent didn't do that, I assumed he did not know how many cards, etc. I see now I was wrong.

[eHalcyon]

"Many of the abilities of the addon have only been brought to light in the last few weeks."

I think this is kinda disingenuous. Just to be clear, what has changed in the last couple months is the way the information is being presented. All other functionality has been available for a year or something, and has been automatically typed in the chatbox ("type !details" etc) of every game that's been played with it. It has surprised me that some people have reacted so strongly, since I assumed 99% of the players on isotropic were aware of what the add-on did (since every game starts with the automated message).

But apparently it doesn't?  Someone posted that one of the possible settings for the add-on is that it is invisible, but can be disabled.  So that means someone might be using it, but the message doesn't appear.  I don't think it's reasonable that people who'd rather not play with the counter would have to type !disable at the start of every game, just in case.

The message always appears at the beginning of the game. The status message is optional only if disabling is enabled, but whether or not the status message is enabled, the chat message always appears. It is impossible for anyone to play a game with a player using the extension unless they either: saw the status message when accepting the auto-match, OR chose not to disable the extension once the game started.

Furthermore, it is impossible to make the point counter invisible without using programming skill to change the source code. Yes, this is easy for someone who knows anything about programming. But... so what? (Edit: My point here being: cheaters gonna cheat.)

OK, so status message can be hidden but chat message cannot (barring source code modification).  I was thinking that "status message" meant "message in chat regarding status of point counter", but I see what you mean now.  Thanks for clarification!

[Fabian]

eH,

If status message is hidden, the extension can be disabled. Just so we're super clear.

[eHalcyon]

eH,

If status message is hidden, the extension can be disabled. Just so we're super clear.

Yep.

[Personman]

I would like to refer everyone to this ongoing thread, to save myself the effort of re-typing my arguments against Kirian. E has also seemed to somewhat retract some of the more personal affronts to those of us who use the extension in more recent posts.

I've linked to the beginning of the thread for completeness, but the discussion doesn't heat up until a little ways in.

[timchen]

@Kirian: I have thus far failed to see how a card counter is qualitatively different from a point counter. They all record open information in the game. Thus they only save you from actually memorizing those information.

The way that it can be modified to be hidden is a unfortunate fact and is not limited to the current point counter. Banning this kind of thing for all games I think is just crazy.

If you think memory is an important skill then sure you can ban it in the tournament you organize. I think online play should be open enough and for any official implementation (ie, funsocket's) there should be an official point counter which does the same thing. It can be enabled or disabled per user/tournament director request.

Seriously, I can see some tournaments leading to IRL tournaments the point counter should be banned. I can see tournaments banning it by default, due to personal preferences. However, I don't understand at all this cheating accusation. Fine. Don't play with me. Play your own little memory game if you wish.

[DStu]

3.  I ask drheld to remove his addon from github and the Chrome addon library.

There are 16 forks on github. You won't get this back...

4.  I ask dougz--if he has time, and insofar as it may be possible--to cause isotropic to be unavailable to those using the addon.

I don't really believe it's possible. The server can check for addons, but no one can force the addon to tell the truth to the server. So you can probably easily ban this addon, but you can easily circumvent it.

Furthermore, it is impossible to make the point counter invisible without using programming skill to change the source code.

I'm not really sure if I would call it "programming skills" to find out what you need to do with

Code: [Select]

if (!allow_disable) setOption('status_announce', true);

I'm afraid, as much as I would like not to, I'm with Personman for the moment.  We would have a policy that is trivial to circumvent and nearly impossible to enforce. Now that alone is not reason enough to just don't have it, with this reasoning one would legalize doping in sports.  But the question is how much would it change the game?  I would guess not much.  Of course it is part of the game to memorize what has happend, but would we all be playing Dominion if it had a point/card counter from the beginning?  I guess we would.

I really don't like getting forced the rules by "hey, we don't care what the actual rules are, you can do nothing against it anyway", but I'm not sure if it is worth the trouble in this case...

Edit: Thinking more about it I think Funsockets should have an as detailed point counter as possible that can be disabled.  The more detailed as is, the less motivation for everybody to write their own inofficial, and the more likely it is to enforce a "no point counter" rule in any tournament that likes to enforce it.

[Kirian]

@Kirian: I have thus far failed to see how a card counter is qualitatively different from a point counter.

The point counter counts (and displays) only points, whereas the card counter counts (and displays) all of the cards purchased by each player.

However, I don't understand at all this cheating accusation.

Most people who didn't use the addon didn't know until recently just what the addon could do.  And what it can do for the user is much more than what it can do for the non-user.  Already there is a large population who feel the point counter alone is cheating and prefer not to play with it; certainly you can understand why people would consider this "variant" cheating as well.

Fine. Don't play with me. Play your own little memory game if you wish.

You mean the game we call Dominion?  That game?

[Personman]

Edit: Thinking more about it I think Funsockets should have an as detailed point counter as possible that can be disabled.  The more detailed as is, the less motivation for everybody to write their own inofficial, and the more likely it is to enforce a "no point counter" rule in any tournament that likes to enforce it.

Yes! Yes! This! Please!

...I would honestly pay $200 for the development of this feature, on top of whatever access to the client will cost. That probably wouldn't cover the dev time, but I'm only one user. I wonder if we could create a kickstarter-esque fund that would result in a full-featured official, cleanly disableable FunSockets point counter once a certain goal is met...

[timchen]

The point counter counts (and displays) only points, whereas the card counter counts (and displays) all of the cards purchased by each player.

So? both are things that are open information to everyone, and are things a good player (in 2p anyway) will memorize. I don't see why one is okay while the other is not.

Most people who didn't use the addon didn't know until recently just what the addon could do.  And what it can do for the user is much more than what it can do for the non-user.  Already there is a large population who feel the point counter alone is cheating and prefer not to play with it; certainly you can understand why people would consider this "variant" cheating as well.

I can understand this as an anger from surprise. But seriously, say in a minions game, do you expect your opponent not knowing the minions split without the point counter? Or how many golds you have bought?

I really don't think there is a large population who feel the point counter is cheating. There may be a large population who does not want to play with point counter. But they respect the players that do want point counters, and if they do not want to play a game with point counters they just don't play with those player, or disable their point counter. Sorry, but cheater is a rather strong word for me.

You mean the game we call Dominion?  That game?

I meant the game you call Dominion. Not the game I call Dominion. Seriously, I am not that interested in arguing what Dominion is (I can accept officially you are right), but what is the problem of having more options?

[blueblimp]

4.  I ask dougz--if he has time, and insofar as it may be possible--to cause isotropic to be unavailable to those using the addon.

I don't really believe it's possible. The server can check for addons, but no one can force the addon to tell the truth to the server. So you can probably easily ban this addon, but you can easily circumvent it.

It might be possible by making it really hard to read log messages from an extension. That wouldn't be bullet-proof, but it'd be good enough to discourage developers.

Furthermore, it is impossible to make the point counter invisible without using programming skill to change the source code.

I'm not really sure if I would call it "programming skills" to find out what you need to do with

Code: [Select]

if (!allow_disable) setOption('status_announce', true);


Well I guess what I was thinking of here is:

• First, you have to realize that changing the source code is even an option. To programmers, that's obvious, but to non-programmers, maybe not.
• Then you have to get the source code (from github, probably) or find it on your machine. Non-programmers are not likely to be able to do this.
• You need to identify every place that the extension might reveal itself to the other player: status message, welcome message, !status, !details, etc. If you miss anything, you're exposed as a cheater, so it's pretty high-risk for someone not confident in their programming skills.
• Finally, you need to load the extension into Chrome. Trivial enough for a programmer, but maybe not for a non-programmer.

I'm afraid, as much as I would like not to, I'm with Personman for the moment.  We would have a policy that is trivial to circumvent and nearly impossible to enforce. Now that alone is not reason enough to just don't have it, with this reasoning one would legalize doping in sports.  But the question is how much would it change the game?  I would guess not much.  Of course it is part of the game to memorize what has happend, but would we all be playing Dominion if it had a point/card counter from the beginning?  I guess we would.

While in general I'm sympathetic to not making rules you can't enforce (hello Throne Room), in this situation, most players will happily abide by tournament rules.

[Davio]

Here's my open letter, just 1 point though:

1. I openly encourage Kirian to get himself examined by a professional therapist, because he's taking his hate mongering campaign too seriously.

It's just Dominion, man, go play offline without any counters, maybe you'll like it.
Seriously asking the programmer to remove the code and the programmer of Iso to actively ban it? Ha, made me laugh and cry at the same time.

In regards to his point 1, I would like to post this addendum.
1b. I openly encourage everybody to approve the use of point counter extensions with the exception that it can't be turned off and that the information that one player running the extension has, can be shared by the other players. The only reason I want this is to help out less technical users who can't or won't install extensions. I would rather see this extension be merged with Isotropic so everyone has the same advantage.

[ftl]

Hah. I had no idea that that's what the point counters did until reading this thread.

I'm not gonna launch a big crusade like Kirian or anything, but I will try to remember to automatch with point counter disabled...

[Personman]

Well, if nothing else this whole mess seems to have educated a lot of people about what the extension actually does, which can only be a good thing. So that's nice I guess.

[Davio]

Well, if nothing else this whole mess seems to have educated a lot of people about what the extension actually does, which can only be a good thing. So that's nice I guess.

Plus it made the start of my day a lot more interesting.

[DG]

If we call this add-on a play aid then just what information could play-aids potentially give the user through card counting
- specific counters for gardens, silk roads, fairgrounds, vineyard points and how purchases would change scoring
- specific split of cards between your draw pile and discard pile
- rough split of cards between an opponent's draw deck and discard pile
 - probabilities for the top card(s) of the draw deck
- chances of a specific card being an opponent's hand (copper, curse, moat, young witch bane, etc)
- chance of an opponent having a hand capable of buying a province, vineyard, etc
- measures and advice on when to start buying victory cards
- estimates of the purchasing capacity of an opponent
Other sources could provide
- links to stats on best openings
- links to game histories on similar kingdoms

If play aids develop further then where is the line to be drawn? A tournament organiser has decided now to draw the line. This seems entirely necessary for tournament play. I don't see any value about arguing where the line has been drawn since no two players will agree exactly where the line should be drawn.

I don't support the argument along the lines of : this is really bad, but you can't stop it, so everyone has to play second rate dominion. We are a friendly community and we can aspire for better play in our tournaments.

(I don't see the need to ban players who agree to comply with the tournament rules but that's the organiser's decision).

[Kirian]

1. I openly encourage Kirian to get himself examined by a professional therapist, because he's taking his hate mongering campaign too seriously.

OK, now we've gone to ad hominem attacks.  Very nice, man.  I generally try not to stoop that low.  It's enough that I can safely ignore arguments from you, though.

While in general I'm sympathetic to not making rules you can't enforce (hello Throne Room), in this situation, most players will happily abide by tournament rules.

Except of course that the entire reason we're having this conversation right now is that it did affect a tournament, because until that point we didn't know what the addon did.  WW took affront to being unable to disable the addon, Personman refused to allow it, and the sponsors, our hosts, who didn't even realize it could be a problem, had to allow that they hadn't ruled against it at the start of the tournament.  I'm sure that will change next time.

You mean the game we call Dominion?  That game?

Seriously, I am not that interested in arguing what Dominion is (I can accept officially you are right)

Well, that was easy.

[theory]

I feel like this is just leading to ill will at this point, and I'm not confident that all this argument is productive, or going to get us anywhere.