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Author Topic: Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]  (Read 67745 times)

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theory

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Finals order [plus a point/card counter debate]
« on: July 02, 2012, 03:06:56 pm »
0

1: Personman
2: jtl005
3: ednever

1 2 3
2 3 1
3 1 2
1 3 2
2 1 3
3 2 1

WanderingWinder withdraws.
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timchen

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2012, 03:09:26 pm »
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Hey! if he withdraws can I substitute?

From my point of view I should have the right to play...
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theory

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2012, 03:10:29 pm »
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The thought did not occur to me to sub you in.  Are you available now?  The match already started, but I can conceivably ask them to restart.
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timchen

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2012, 03:10:41 pm »
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yes.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 03:11:42 pm »
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Allowing timchen in would be unfair to a mess of other participants.

Qvist

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 03:19:44 pm »
+1

WanderingWinder withdraws.

I just wanted to say that it's kinda sad how this ended.
I do really not want to start the discussion, but I want to add, that tournaments serve at least 2 purposes IMO:
1.) The best should win
2.) It should be fun

If one player withdraws, we will never find out, if the first point was achieved and the second definitely not.

theory

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2012, 03:28:11 pm »
+1

I don't think I can justify subbing in timchen. 

I'm glad this damn thing is over, at least.
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2012, 03:37:18 pm »
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Interesting to see that, despite the huge crapshoot that is 4p, still the final 4 are all highly-ranked on the leaderboard (WW at level 49, ednever at level 40, jtl005 at level 38, Personman at level 36). Disappointing that we don't get to see if WW can follow up his dominant performance in the semis.
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Kirian

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2012, 03:37:48 pm »
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Quote
WanderingWinder withdraws.

:(

I do want to note that whoever goes to nationals probably should do some practicing without the point counter.  Because, you know, it won't exist there...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 03:38:17 pm by theory »
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DStu

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2012, 04:11:06 pm »
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I'm glad this damn thing is over, at least.

So where was this discussion? I only got the fallout in several other threads, but seem to have missed the main thread...
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theory

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 04:14:37 pm »
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Much of it was done over email.  It was just a bit of a hassle, trying to coordinate everyone's schedules, while simultaneously trying to manage one of the all-time Dominion Top Ten Debates because our original ruleset wasn't comprehensive enough.

I think we ended up with a decent compromise, though I'm genuinely sorry WW decided to withdraw.
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Davio

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 04:22:41 pm »
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Why did he withdraw? Was it because of the video thing?
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rrenaud

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 04:27:20 pm »
+3

It was basically the point counter debate all over again.  There were reasonable, but very strong views on both sides, and we couldn't come to a compromise that made everyone happy within the time constraints.  We really don't want to rehash this over and over.  We regret that WW resigned withdrew.  He is a great Dominion player and a great participant in this community.
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Davio

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 04:48:57 pm »
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It was basically the point counter debate all over again.  There were reasonable, but very strong views on both sides, and we couldn't come to a compromise that made everyone happy within the time constraints.  We really don't want to rehash this over and over.  We regret that WW resigned.  He is a great Dominion player and a great participant in this community.
But it was to be played over the internet right?

For such a game, NOT including the point counter would cause people to just jot everything down on a piece of paper and this would slow the game down way too much. Not that I want to start the argument again, but wouldn't it be better to have all the points be synchronously available to all players instead of waiting 5 minutes every time some one buys a Silk Road?

Would be even more fun with Vineyards, Silk Roads, Fairgrounds etc.
"Joe just bought an Island, break out the abacuses everybody!"

I mean, I can understand people generally not caring or wanting it in regular 2p games, but for the finals, man, you kind of have to do this.  :-\
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rrenaud

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 04:51:42 pm »
+4

We can keep talking about this and get into the same argument.  But hey, I just got through the worst apartment move ever where a guy threatened to keep a truck full of my (and girlfriend's) possessions, so I've got better things to do than argue about point counters on the internet again.

If I could perma-ban myself from reading this thread again, I would ;).
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Davio

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2012, 04:54:33 pm »
+1

* Davio sees the word Possession in rrenaud's post.
* Davio must constrain himself not to make a pun, because it's such a serious story.
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theory

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2012, 05:03:25 pm »
+8

Keep in mind those possessions included Council Room itself!!

Who knew that Thief/Council Room was a combo.
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Kirian

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2012, 06:15:25 pm »
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I mean, I can understand people generally not caring or wanting it in regular 2p games, but for the finals, man, you kind of have to do this.  :-\

Go right ahead and do that at nationals or any in-person tournament.  I dare ya!
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2012, 07:45:39 pm »
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WW gave up a 1-in-4 chance of an expenses-paid trip to the US finals over the point counter? Wha?
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GigaKnight

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2012, 08:43:32 pm »
+1

WW gave up a 1-in-4 chance of an expenses-paid trip to the US finals over the point counter? Wha?

I'm also confused.  I have zero desire to argue about what should / shouldn't happen, but I am very curious to know what did happen.  The tournament rules state this:

Quote
Games must be played with randomly selected cards, no veto mode, identical starting hands, and with the official point counter enabled unless all players agree otherwise.

I'm not seeing what's unclear about this as it relates to the point counter.  Was somebody trying to use an extension point counter that created a problem?
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greatexpectations

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2012, 08:51:46 pm »
+2

i am as curious as the next person as to what went down. but at the same time i think that if theory and/or WW had wanted the information of precisely what happened made publicly available they would have done so by now.  i would recommend not pressing the issue too much here, especially given that things seemed to be a little tense at the time of the decision.
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2012, 09:21:18 pm »
0

WW gave up a 1-in-4 chance of an expenses-paid trip to the US finals over the point counter? Wha?

I'm also confused.  I have zero desire to argue about what should / shouldn't happen, but I am very curious to know what did happen.  The tournament rules state this:

Quote
Games must be played with randomly selected cards, no veto mode, identical starting hands, and with the official point counter enabled unless all players agree otherwise.

I'm not seeing what's unclear about this as it relates to the point counter.  Was somebody trying to use an extension point counter that created a problem?

Let me see if I can summarize the issue of the point counter in a neutral manner. (Disclaimer: I use the point counter extension.)

Isotropic's built-in point counter gives you just the minimum information a point counter can give you: the points each player had at the beginning of the current turn. The point counter extension existed first and gives you more information: the current points of each player, along with the current deck contents of each player. The tracking of deck contents is a side effect of tracking points, since you need that information to calculate the value of fairgrounds, silk road, etc.

The point counter extension makes point information available in two ways. One is that it can be seen at any time, by either player, by typing "!status" into the chat box. The other is that the current points information is shown next to the chat box, for the player running the extension.

The point counter extension makes deck content information available in two ways, also. Similar to points information, it can be seen by typing "!details" into the chat box. A few months ago, that was the only way to see it. Somewhat more recently, I believe on April 1st with the release of version 5.1 of the extension, the deck contents information started to display next to the supply. While I can't speak for other users of the extension, I didn't pay much attention to the deck content information until this UI change. However, all the information provided by the UI change was previously available by typing "!details".

Since there's no visible change to people who don't use the extension, initially only users of the extension were aware of the UI change. I believe that changed with this post in the Isotropic Discussion forum, so that's why it's becoming a hot topic now.

Opinions on the point counter extension are mixed. As theory summarized:
Quote
Consider yourself on notice that the unofficial "point counter extension" can count much more than points.  Some think this is cheating, some think this is unethical, some think this is both, some think this is neither.

Actually going over the pro and con arguments is a different discussion, and there are reasonable arguments on both sides. I suspect the issue here was that the tournament rules did not address the point counter extension, just the official isotropic point counter.
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GigaKnight

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2012, 09:37:30 pm »
0

I appreciate the summary but I wasn't actually asking about what the point counter did.  I'm trying to figure out why WW withdrew (and I'm trying to do it without setting off a powder keg).  My read of it from the forum is:

- At least 1 player likes to use the unofficial point counter and plans to use it in the finals
- WW objects
- Tournament organizers rule that unofficial point counter is OK
- WW withdraws

If there's concern that answering this will start an argument, one can always confirm / deny / correct this series of events and then lock the thread.  It happened.  It's over.  Whether people like or dislike it can be the subject of other threads.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 09:43:42 pm by GigaKnight »
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Robz888

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2012, 10:31:25 pm »
0

WW gave up a 1-in-4 chance of an expenses-paid trip to the US finals over the point counter? Wha?

I'm also confused.  I have zero desire to argue about what should / shouldn't happen, but I am very curious to know what did happen.  The tournament rules state this:

Quote
Games must be played with randomly selected cards, no veto mode, identical starting hands, and with the official point counter enabled unless all players agree otherwise.

I'm not seeing what's unclear about this as it relates to the point counter.  Was somebody trying to use an extension point counter that created a problem?

Let me see if I can summarize the issue of the point counter in a neutral manner. (Disclaimer: I use the point counter extension.)

Isotropic's built-in point counter gives you just the minimum information a point counter can give you: the points each player had at the beginning of the current turn. The point counter extension existed first and gives you more information: the current points of each player, along with the current deck contents of each player. The tracking of deck contents is a side effect of tracking points, since you need that information to calculate the value of fairgrounds, silk road, etc.

The point counter extension makes point information available in two ways. One is that it can be seen at any time, by either player, by typing "!status" into the chat box. The other is that the current points information is shown next to the chat box, for the player running the extension.

The point counter extension makes deck content information available in two ways, also. Similar to points information, it can be seen by typing "!details" into the chat box. A few months ago, that was the only way to see it. Somewhat more recently, I believe on April 1st with the release of version 5.1 of the extension, the deck contents information started to display next to the supply. While I can't speak for other users of the extension, I didn't pay much attention to the deck content information until this UI change. However, all the information provided by the UI change was previously available by typing "!details".

Since there's no visible change to people who don't use the extension, initially only users of the extension were aware of the UI change. I believe that changed with this post in the Isotropic Discussion forum, so that's why it's becoming a hot topic now.

Opinions on the point counter extension are mixed. As theory summarized:
Quote
Consider yourself on notice that the unofficial "point counter extension" can count much more than points.  Some think this is cheating, some think this is unethical, some think this is both, some think this is neither.

Actually going over the pro and con arguments is a different discussion, and there are reasonable arguments on both sides. I suspect the issue here was that the tournament rules did not address the point counter extension, just the official isotropic point counter.

I didn't realize this at all. In other words, every person with the "Auto Count" thing next to their name has this ability?
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blueblimp

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Re: Finals order
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2012, 10:31:54 pm »
0

WW gave up a 1-in-4 chance of an expenses-paid trip to the US finals over the point counter? Wha?

I'm also confused.  I have zero desire to argue about what should / shouldn't happen, but I am very curious to know what did happen.  The tournament rules state this:

Quote
Games must be played with randomly selected cards, no veto mode, identical starting hands, and with the official point counter enabled unless all players agree otherwise.

I'm not seeing what's unclear about this as it relates to the point counter.  Was somebody trying to use an extension point counter that created a problem?

Let me see if I can summarize the issue of the point counter in a neutral manner. (Disclaimer: I use the point counter extension.)

Isotropic's built-in point counter gives you just the minimum information a point counter can give you: the points each player had at the beginning of the current turn. The point counter extension existed first and gives you more information: the current points of each player, along with the current deck contents of each player. The tracking of deck contents is a side effect of tracking points, since you need that information to calculate the value of fairgrounds, silk road, etc.

The point counter extension makes point information available in two ways. One is that it can be seen at any time, by either player, by typing "!status" into the chat box. The other is that the current points information is shown next to the chat box, for the player running the extension.

The point counter extension makes deck content information available in two ways, also. Similar to points information, it can be seen by typing "!details" into the chat box. A few months ago, that was the only way to see it. Somewhat more recently, I believe on April 1st with the release of version 5.1 of the extension, the deck contents information started to display next to the supply. While I can't speak for other users of the extension, I didn't pay much attention to the deck content information until this UI change. However, all the information provided by the UI change was previously available by typing "!details".

Since there's no visible change to people who don't use the extension, initially only users of the extension were aware of the UI change. I believe that changed with this post in the Isotropic Discussion forum, so that's why it's becoming a hot topic now.

Opinions on the point counter extension are mixed. As theory summarized:
Quote
Consider yourself on notice that the unofficial "point counter extension" can count much more than points.  Some think this is cheating, some think this is unethical, some think this is both, some think this is neither.

Actually going over the pro and con arguments is a different discussion, and there are reasonable arguments on both sides. I suspect the issue here was that the tournament rules did not address the point counter extension, just the official isotropic point counter.

I didn't realize this at all. In other words, every person with the "Auto Count" thing next to their name has this ability?

Yes.
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