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Author Topic: Optimizing Play  (Read 6559 times)

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Titandrake

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Optimizing Play
« on: June 15, 2012, 09:19:41 pm »
+3

If you're looking for strategy about cards to buy, you're not going to find it. This is about playing each hand as well as possible. I've noticed some people making mistakes in how they play their hands. They're small, but they add up fast. So, I figured I'd write a short article about it. I think a lot of people here already know this stuff, but whatever...

I tried to keep this short, but apparently I'm just long-winded like that :/

Using Throne Room/King's Court in an engine.

TR/KC the engine component that you need the most. If your engine relies on TR/KCed cantrips for +Actions, do that. If your engine is in the middle of firing off, TR/KC a +Cards. If you've pretty much drawn your deck, TR/KC a +$ card. TR/KC on a village should be avoided if possible as these effects are much weaker, but if you need to dig further or don't have alternatives then do it. If you only have Villages as non TR/KC actions, then play all but 1 Village and hope you draw into a better action to double/triple. And as always, TR/TR and KC/KC take priority.

Play Golems early in an action chain.

The later you play Golem, the fewer actions you have left in your deck. If you have multiple Golems, you want to make sure as many as possible play 2 Actions. Try to get 2 Actions before playing Golem to guarantee that your chain continues in case you hit 2 terminals. If Golem is being used for +Actions like the TR/KC cantrip scenario above, then play it first.

Watch your reshuffles.

Whenever you would trigger a reshuffle, pause to consider if it's worth losing the cards in play/hand for the next deck cycle. Far too many scenarios to talk about here, but just remember that you're choosing between "play Action, lose cards in hand/play for some turns" and "don't play Action, don't lose cards in hand/play in next deck cycle".

Discard junk (unless you have a plan).

Instead of thinking of Militia as "discard 2 cards", think of it as "choose a 3 card hand". You don't always want to discard junk. For instance, if you have a trasher like Remake/Steward, keep the cards you want to trash. It's not like you're doing much else with your turn. If you don't have much else, then yeah, discarding the bad cards is the right move.

Try to use trash for benefits on high cost cards.

TFBs work terrible on Coppers. The better the trashed card, the better the reward. If you choose Copper to trash, it often means that you've played a terminal trasher that trashes 1 card for little benefit, which is definitely not a good card effect. So, if possible, you generally want to avoid trashing Coppers to cards like Salvager, Remodel, Expand, Develop, etc.

However, there are some noticeable exceptions to this. Apprentice and Upgrade work okay on Copper because they are both non-terminal. Remake trashes 2 cards, which trashes Copper fast enough for it to be worth it. Bishop's VP chips don't increase your buying power this turn, which is why you generally trash Copper to it.

It's okay to trash cards aggressively if you really need to make an important purchase, like Goons or King's Court. On the other hand, if you trash too aggressively, you won't have enough high quality cards left to last in the endgame. You don't always want to trash a Gold or Platinum or Lab, but leave the option open. Of course, if you don't need that Copper and don't have anything better, just trash it anyways.

As a final note: trashing a Curse is considerably better than trashing a Copper, and should be seriously considered. When you trash a Curse, you get an implicit +1 VP. This has exactly the same effect as Bishop trashing a Copper, except without the opponent benefit.

Use cyclers aggressively early game.

Navigator discarding okay hands and Cellar discarding Coppers early is fine. You want that fast reshuffle to get good cards into your draw pile. As the game progresses, tone down how often/how much you discard cards.

Don't give information by playing cards needlessly.

Please don't play treasures one by one, it disguises little. However, if you have to play them one by one anyways (Bank, Fool's Gold), play as many as you need and no more. No point telling people you drew 5 Fool's Gold when 3 is enough for Province. Don't play a Venture if you already have enough $ and might trigger an unwanted reshuffle either.

Play Bank and Horn of Plenty last, play Contraband first.

Bank and Horn of Plenty will give more benefit if they are played last. More treasures in play, and more of a variety in play. Contraband has potential mindgames if you play other treasure first, but I don't think it's worth it.

If I've missed anything, tell me and I'll add it in.

Edit:

Throne Room/King's Court with choice cards.

The options on choice cards can often be split into limiting or expanding options. By limiting or expanding, I mean that the options either let you play more cards or let you play fewer cards in exchange for a guaranteed benefit. Some examples are below.

Minion: +$2 (limiting) or draw new hand of 4 cards (expanding)
Pawn: +1 card/+$1 (expanding), +1 Action/+1 Buy (limiting)  (There is an amazing amount of grey area in which options you consider expanding/limiting, so your opinion may vary here.)
Torturer attack: Gain a Curse (expanding), discard 2 cards (limiting)

This matters because when you TR/KC a choice cards, you generally want to choose the expanding option first. This way, if you don't like the results you end up with, you can expand again. You only choose the limiting option if you can guarantee that you will be able to use the benefit. Examples of this would be Minion if you already have plenty of money in hand, Pawn if you have actions in hand you know you want to play, etc.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:19:14 pm by Titandrake »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 09:42:18 pm »
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but just remember that you're choosing between playing the Action and losing the cards in hand/play for some turns.

You're not choosing between those two.  Those two are part of one choice; the other choice is "not playing the action and having the cards in hand/play after the next shuffle". ;)

Use trash-for-benefits on higher cost cards.

TFBs work terrible on Coppers. The better the trashed card, the better the reward. It's okay to trash expensive cards aggressively. This is especially true if it's the greening stage and you need to maintain tempo. That one extra Province from Apprenticing a Gold is often well worth losing that card, as long as you're careful with regards to not over-trashing your good cards. You don't always want to trash a Gold or Platinum or Lab, but leave the option open.

(The exception is the gain-exactly cards. Upgrade and Remake work well on Coppers because no $1 card exists.)

I think your exception isn't really an exception.  You say TFB on Copper is bad because it confers no benefit, but Upgrade or Remake on copper doesn't give you benefit either.  I think the reason why those two cards are better for Copper is because Upgrade is a cantrip, thus a "free" trash, and Remake can trash two Copper at once, which is much more efficient. 

Also I don't think it's a problem to using TFB on Copper if you have nothing better to do and don't need the Copper.  The advice is really to not be afraid of trashing good things.  But it's OK to trash weak things as well! :)
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ycz6

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 09:43:48 pm »
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Contraband mindgames usually only work once per game, if at all. But god are they amazing when they do.

More importantly, play Horn of Plenty last. This of course contradicts with an existing rule.
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Titandrake

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 09:59:59 pm »
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but just remember that you're choosing between playing the Action and losing the cards in hand/play for some turns.

You're not choosing between those two.  Those two are part of one choice; the other choice is "not playing the action and having the cards in hand/play after the next shuffle". ;)

Woops, I'm fixing the choice thing. As for the TFB on copper, I think that's more of a self-evident thing: it's all upside if you don't need the Copper, so I'm not sure whether it's worth listing. The Upgrade/Remake trashing bit could be clearer, so I'll add that.

Edit: I added the Copper thing anyway.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 10:02:34 pm by Titandrake »
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Young Nick

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 10:58:08 pm »
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A useful tip would be to explain when to go TR->KC and when to go KC->TR. Also worth noting are the rare cases that you don't want to do TR-TR-Smithy with no actions in hand. You might draw into an unwanted Ambassador, Masquerade, or other mandatory trasher.

Great idea for an article, though.
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XnFM

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 11:13:10 pm »
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Use trash-for-benefits on higher cost cards.

TFBs work terrible on Coppers. The better the trashed card, the better the reward. It's okay to trash expensive cards aggressively. This is especially true if it's the greening stage and you need to maintain tempo. That one extra Province from Apprenticing a Gold is often well worth losing that card, as long as you're careful with regards to not over-trashing your good cards. You don't always want to trash a Gold or Platinum or Lab, but leave the option open.

(The exception is the gain-exactly cards. Upgrade and Remake work well on Coppers because no $1 card exists.)

I think your exception isn't really an exception.  You say TFB on Copper is bad because it confers no benefit, but Upgrade or Remake on copper doesn't give you benefit either.  I think the reason why those two cards are better for Copper is because Upgrade is a cantrip, thus a "free" trash, and Remake can trash two Copper at once, which is much more efficient. 

Also I don't think it's a problem to using TFB on Copper if you have nothing better to do and don't need the Copper.  The advice is really to not be afraid of trashing good things.  But it's OK to trash weak things as well! :)

I'm pretty sure he was thinking primarily of Remodel here, where you're generally forced to gain a "bad" card if you trash a copper. Upgrade and Remake are different from Remodel in that you're never forced to gain an unwanted card when you trash a copper or a curse. As far as most of the other trash for benefit cards go, the correct card to trash really depends on what phase of the game you're in. And if you have: Silver, Copper, [non-Remodel trasher], Curse, Curse, I think the correct trashing choice is very rarely the higher cost card.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 11:25:39 pm »
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Use trash-for-benefits on higher cost cards.

TFBs work terrible on Coppers. The better the trashed card, the better the reward. It's okay to trash expensive cards aggressively. This is especially true if it's the greening stage and you need to maintain tempo. That one extra Province from Apprenticing a Gold is often well worth losing that card, as long as you're careful with regards to not over-trashing your good cards. You don't always want to trash a Gold or Platinum or Lab, but leave the option open.

(The exception is the gain-exactly cards. Upgrade and Remake work well on Coppers because no $1 card exists.)

I think your exception isn't really an exception.  You say TFB on Copper is bad because it confers no benefit, but Upgrade or Remake on copper doesn't give you benefit either.  I think the reason why those two cards are better for Copper is because Upgrade is a cantrip, thus a "free" trash, and Remake can trash two Copper at once, which is much more efficient. 

Also I don't think it's a problem to using TFB on Copper if you have nothing better to do and don't need the Copper.  The advice is really to not be afraid of trashing good things.  But it's OK to trash weak things as well! :)

I'm pretty sure he was thinking primarily of Remodel here, where you're generally forced to gain a "bad" card if you trash a copper. Upgrade and Remake are different from Remodel in that you're never forced to gain an unwanted card when you trash a copper or a curse. As far as most of the other trash for benefit cards go, the correct card to trash really depends on what phase of the game you're in. And if you have: Silver, Copper, [non-Remodel trasher], Curse, Curse, I think the correct trashing choice is very rarely the higher cost card.

TFB also includes Apprentice, Salvager, Develop, Expand... yeah, Remodelling Copper is usually bad, but that's just one case. :)
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Schlippy

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2012, 07:25:33 am »
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Contraband mindgames usually only work once per game, if at all. But god are they amazing when they do.

More importantly, play Horn of Plenty last. This of course contradicts with an existing rule.
That really depends. There are situations with Bank where you do not want to play HoP last.
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DG

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2012, 07:37:14 am »
+1

Perhaps you should have left the apprentice play out of the article since it is more complicated. If you trash a silver and draw two coppers and an estate then you're probably going backwards. Your deck needs to have sufficient quality before you can make use of trash high/draw many. If you need to trash out coppers early in the game to make sure later apprentice draws are better then you bite the bullet and do it.
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Varsinor

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2012, 11:26:28 am »
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Contraband mindgames usually only work once per game, if at all. But god are they amazing when they do.

More importantly, play Horn of Plenty last. This of course contradicts with an existing rule.
That really depends. There are situations with Bank where you do not want to play HoP last.

Sure, and there are also situations where you do not want to play Bank last when you have HoP - that's why ycz6 added that the two rules of thumb to play both Bank and HoP last obviously contradict.
But it is still good advice that you always want to play these two last - it's just when you have both of them that this rule obviously isn't sufficient and you need to make a decision which may not be a non-brainer. (You'll still always want to play both of them after all other treasure barring situations where you don't want to let your opponent see that you prefer a $5 card over Gold for instance.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 11:29:58 am by Varsinor »
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mnavratil

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 10:32:02 am »
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Perhaps worth also explicitly mentioning KC/Choice cards. Minion is the big one here. Discard the hand first (if you planned to anyway). Take the money only after you have drawn up another minion/whatever you want to dig for. Same type of thing with pawn. If you have no other actions in hand, you don't need the action right now anyway.

Also, probably doesn't need mentioning, but villages THEN conspirators. I don't know how many times I get into auto-pilot mode and just click on that conspirator first with two other villages/cantrips in hand.
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Titandrake

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Re: Optimizing Play
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 01:43:04 pm »
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Perhaps worth also explicitly mentioning KC/Choice cards. Minion is the big one here. Discard the hand first (if you planned to anyway). Take the money only after you have drawn up another minion/whatever you want to dig for. Same type of thing with pawn. If you have no other actions in hand, you don't need the action right now anyway.

Also, probably doesn't need mentioning, but villages THEN conspirators. I don't know how many times I get into auto-pilot mode and just click on that conspirator first with two other villages/cantrips in hand.

Oh I completely forgot this one, I'll add it. Also I'll add HoP too.

As for the whole Apprentice/Trash for benefit thing in general, there's quite a bit of grey area there. I think the real idea is that you leave the option of trashing higher cost cards open all the time, and not just in the endgame.
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