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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise  (Read 414183 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #550 on: October 02, 2014, 04:56:25 pm »
0

Kingdom card .xcf documents!

FloodgateCombo.xcf
2 Auction
2 Redistrict
3 Floodgate
4 Craftsman
4 Terrace
5 Axeman
5 Cathedral
5 Conclave

MillTownCombo.xcf
2 Clerk
3 Gambler
3 Mill Town
4 Committee
4 Dignitary
5 Barrister
5 Barter
5 Wheelwright

GeneralCombo.xcf
2 Jubilee
3 Convoy
3 Refurbish
4 Profiteer
4 Vendor
5 Barracks (put Conscripts in hand version)
5 Fund
5 General
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 05:01:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #551 on: October 02, 2014, 04:57:16 pm »
0

Ancillary Card .xcf documents!
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mustang255

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #552 on: October 02, 2014, 07:54:51 pm »
+1

Quote
Redistrict: Man, the whole point of the wording is to be clear. The "chosen card" is the one you "choose" at the top of the card. I'm not sure how I could make that more clear. The fact that you can gain a card costing $2 more without gaining one costing $1 more is a side-effect of this wording.

The best I can come up with is:

Trash a card from your hand.
Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
You may trash this. If you do, gain a card costing exactly $2 more as well.

Any other wording I can think of; "the chosen card", "the trashed card", or even "it" could potentially erroneously refer to either Redistrict, or the first gained card. I may be overthinking it though, as I did obviously understand how the card was supposed to work.

Quote
Auction: All Treasure cards that do something on-play say, "When you play this…" Most that are worth varying amounts say, "Worth…"

Right you are. I am too used to the wording on Action cards.

Quote
Committee: "If you did" is necessary to avoid players gaining Provinces (or Colonies in a Colony game) when they have just one kind of card in their deck/discard. If you didn't reveal 2 differently named cards, you don't gain or trash anything.

Oh, OK, I see now. I like the attention to detail you put into your cards, taking edge cases like this into account.
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #553 on: October 02, 2014, 08:38:20 pm »
+1

Oh, OK, I see now. I like the attention to detail you put into your cards, taking edge cases like this into account.

LastFootnote is quite the master of all card-creation considerations by now!  :D
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Nic

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #554 on: October 02, 2014, 09:45:46 pm »
+1

For people who just need to print out some of the updated cards, here's the TeX document that I used. It gives a little more white space between cards than I would've liked, but it wasn't a big enough deal for me to spend half an hour to fix it. To add another page, use the \newpage command followed by a second \noindent and eight more pictures. Just compile it in the same folder as the hi-res .png files.

Code: [Select]
\documentclass[11pt]{article}

\usepackage{pdflscape}
\usepackage{graphicx}
\usepackage[margin=.6in]{geometry}
\begin{document}

\pagestyle{empty}
\begin{landscape}

\noindent
\includegraphics[width=59 mm,height=91 mm]{auction}
\includegraphics[width=59 mm,height=91 mm]{barrister}
\includegraphics[width=59 mm,height=91 mm]{barter}
\includegraphics[width=59 mm,height=91 mm]{cathedral}\\
\includegraphics[width=59 mm,height=91 mm]{craftsman}
\includegraphics[width=59 mm,height=91 mm]{floodgate}
\includegraphics[width=59 mm,height=91 mm]{mill_town}
\includegraphics[width=59 mm,height=91 mm]{profiteer}

\end{landscape}

\end{document}
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #555 on: October 03, 2014, 03:49:50 pm »
+1

Oh, OK, I see now. I like the attention to detail you put into your cards, taking edge cases like this into account.

LastFootnote is quite the master of all card-creation considerations by now!  :D

Thanks, I try to cover all the bases. I'm definitely not infallible, though. And sometimes I need to learn to try the simpler wording and see if it actually creates problems before jumping to the more complex one.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #556 on: October 13, 2014, 03:53:04 pm »
+4

Played a two-player game using Barter and Cathedral. To be more specific, it used:
Quote
Courtyard, Lookout, Alchemist, Militia, Plaza, Taxman, Barter, Cathedral, Venture, Border Village
With Colonies and Estates
With Platinum available, Taxman of course dominated the table in a big way.
I played a largely Treasure centric strategy between Taxman, Venture, and Platinum. I later bought a Barter, gaining 3 Trade tokens as I did so. The Barter let me trash for Victory cards as I planned, but I also had unfortunate collision between Taxman and Courtyard that I was able to manipulate thanks to Bartering a Border Village to hand.
My partner played an engine using Cathedral and Border Village, with Barter providing a great deal of flexibility as he gained Trade tokens by purchasing Victory cards with multiple Cathedrals in play. He never used the Trade token ability of Cathedral since his draw engine began to reach critical mass by the time we started greening.

I ended up winning, but it was a close and fun game. My partner enjoyed both Cathedral and Barter.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #557 on: October 13, 2014, 05:44:48 pm »
0

Played a two-player game using Barter and Cathedral. To be more specific, it used:
Quote
Courtyard, Lookout, Alchemist, Militia, Plaza, Taxman, Barter, Cathedral, Venture, Border Village
With Colonies and Estates
With Platinum available, Taxman of course dominated the table in a big way.
I played a largely Treasure centric strategy between Taxman, Venture, and Platinum. I later bought a Barter, gaining 3 Trade tokens as I did so. The Barter let me trash for Victory cards as I planned, but I also had unfortunate collision between Taxman and Courtyard that I was able to manipulate thanks to Bartering a Border Village to hand.
My partner played an engine using Cathedral and Border Village, with Barter providing a great deal of flexibility as he gained Trade tokens by purchasing Victory cards with multiple Cathedrals in play. He never used the Trade token ability of Cathedral since his draw engine began to reach critical mass by the time we started greening.

I ended up winning, but it was a close and fun game. My partner enjoyed both Cathedral and Barter.

Thanks, Fragasnap! I'm glad it was a fun game.

If Cathedral's ability turns out to be never worth using, I'll have to change it up. I think it hinges on you buying Victory cards earlier than you otherwise would. But maybe that's unreasonable. Maybe nobody is ever buying Victory cards until their deck is already junk-free. Maybe I need to up the number of cards trashed. More likely I need to allow you to gain tokens without buying Victory cards, but I'm not sure how to do that. If you can gain a token with any buy, I think that probably gets crazy. It's possible the whole idea just won't work.

EDIT: Oh, also I updated the OP. I wanted to get more testing in before doing so, but I noticed that some of the card images had disappeared (I recently cleaned a bunch of stuff out of my imgur account).
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #558 on: October 13, 2014, 05:48:25 pm »
+1

I thought Wheelwright  was out. so why is it still in?

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #559 on: October 13, 2014, 06:01:35 pm »
+3

I thought Wheelwright  was out. so why is it still in?

My rules are arbitrary and ever-changing! :P
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #560 on: October 13, 2014, 06:39:06 pm »
+2

I have a Kingdom generator with Enterprise programmed into it. I recently was generating a bunch of Kingdoms with General in it because I wanted to see some of its interactions with Enterprise's one-shots, but I was surprised at how few Kingdoms appeared that made use of that ability of General's. While I don't worry that General is too weak (though, having not played it, that is simply in my approximation), it struck me as odd that General's fanciest ability was rarely useable even in Enterprise heavy games.

As it stands, there are 5 cards in Enterprise that interact with General's "don't trash it" ability: Conscripts, Gambler, Jubilee, Redistrict, and Vendor-- and Redistrict's on-trash ability requires that it be trashed, so General's interaction is irrelevant.

I'm a bit disappointed reflecting upon how few cards are actually one-shots in Enterprise (not because they don't interact with General, but because that was the purported theme). Accounting for all the cards, 9 of the 24 cards are one-shots or pseudo-one-shots: Barter, Convoy, Floodgate, Fund, Gambler, Jubilee, Redistrict, Terrace, and Vendor. If we add interacting with Coppers as a primary mechanic, that only adds Clerk, Mill Town, and Wheelwright to the mechanically relevant list.
I believe there is still a lot of room for high-level play to be introduced to Dominion through your mechanical theme of effects with limited uses and I would like to encourage you to cut cards that don't fit in with that idea.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #561 on: October 13, 2014, 07:15:52 pm »
+1

I have a Kingdom generator with Enterprise programmed into it. I recently was generating a bunch of Kingdoms with General in it because I wanted to see some of its interactions with Enterprise's one-shots, but I was surprised at how few Kingdoms appeared that made use of that ability of General's. While I don't worry that General is too weak (though, having not played it, that is simply in my approximation), it struck me as odd that General's fanciest ability was rarely useable even in Enterprise heavy games.

As it stands, there are 5 cards in Enterprise that interact with General's "don't trash it" ability: Conscripts, Gambler, Jubilee, Redistrict, and Vendor-- and Redistrict's on-trash ability requires that it be trashed, so General's interaction is irrelevant.

I'm a bit disappointed reflecting upon how few cards are actually one-shots in Enterprise (not because they don't interact with General, but because that was the purported theme). Accounting for all the cards, 9 of the 24 cards are one-shots or pseudo-one-shots: Barter, Convoy, Floodgate, Fund, Gambler, Jubilee, Redistrict, Terrace, and Vendor. If we add interacting with Coppers as a primary mechanic, that only adds Clerk, Mill Town, and Wheelwright to the mechanically relevant list.
I believe there is still a lot of room for high-level play to be introduced to Dominion through your mechanical theme of effects with limited uses and I would like to encourage you to cut cards that don't fit in with that idea.

I think that's a worthy goal. As I come up with more on-theme cards, I am bound to cut some of the off-theme ones. That being said, I think a set full of one-shots—even optional one-shots—is bound to be a little lopsided. Meaning, where are all the Kingdom cards at the end of the game? In the trash. Trade token cards are a way around that, which is why I embraced that mechanic. I would argue that even when a card gives Trade tokens other than on-buy or on-gain, it still falls under the limited-uses theme because the uses are so heavily gated. The way I see it, this is how the cards are currently broken up among themes:

Cards that trash themselves: Jubilee, Redistrict, Gambler, Vendor, Fund, Conscripts (and therefore Profiteer and Barracks)
Cards that use Trade tokens: Jubilee, Convoy, Craftsman, Terrace, Barter, Cathedral
Cards that care about Treasures: Clerk, Mill Town, Refurbish, Vendor, Barrister, Barter, Wheelwright
Misc one-shot stuff: Floodgate, General
Off-theme: Auction, Committee, Dignitary, Axeman, Conclave

(Originally Dignitary was supposed to tie into the theme by being able to trash itself with the Reaction. It can technically still do that, but with this top half you're probably not going to. Back when it gained Silvers, it was at least plausible.)

So by that yardstick, the set doesn't have so very much off-theme stuff. 5 cards. Now maybe the cares-about-Treasure theme is invisible. And it's a theme that Prosperity has, but hey, that's no big deal. Intrigue and Hinterlands both have a cares-about-Victory theme.

Anyway, Committee, Dignitary, and Axeman are providing player interaction. It would be cooler to get that interaction from on-theme cards, and I'm open to that. Maybe I could do a one-shot or Trade token Laboratory variant instead of Conclave.

Quote
Conclave
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. You may pay a Trade token to put all of them into your hand. Otherwise, put one into your hand and discard the rest.

When you gain this, take a Trade token per different type (Action, Attack, etc.) on cards you have in play.

Eh, I guess that might be OK.

I could try one-shot tops on Dignitary, though usually you want to keep the Reaction. I could instead try different one-shot reactions, though probably they wouldn't react to Attacks? If the ability is strong enough that you have to trash the card, maybe players avoid playing attacks in order to keep you from activating it.

I could test Conquest (one-shot attack that makes each opponent trash a good card; gain one of them to hand). The set is pretty flush with trashing attacks, though. I guess I could replace Axeman if it works out.

Some themes are just not as conducive to taking over a whole set as others. Look at Cornucopia. 4 off-theme cards in just 13 cards. Of course one solution is to have more themes. If the cares-about-Treasure theme isn't doing it for people or is too invisible, I could cut those cards and look for another theme; one that meshes well with one-shots and Trade tokens.

Maybe General just needs to lose the one-shot clause. I know that would make some people happy. It wouldn't have much tying it to this set at that point, but so it goes. Maybe there's a better Throne Room variant I could try. I originally had [Take a token; You may play an Action card from your hand; You may spend a token to play it again; You may spend a token to play it a third time]. Not a huge crowd-pleaser. Maybe I just wasn't trying it with the right crowd, though.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 07:17:36 pm by LastFootnote »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #562 on: October 13, 2014, 11:13:39 pm »
+2

my 2c: Every expansion has a few off-theme cards, and that's fine. nothing wrong with that. I think Dignitary especially is great as is.

OT PS: I've also made a little kingdom chooser program which includes Enterprise (along with my other favorite fan made cards -several from the fan card contests, my expansion of course, a couple from NoMoreFun's expansion, a few from Silverspawn's expansion, and I'll be adding a few from Co0kieL0rd's expansion too).

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #563 on: October 14, 2014, 03:34:03 am »
+2

my 2c: Every expansion has a few off-theme cards, and that's fine. nothing wrong with that. I think Dignitary especially is great as is.

I was going to say the same thing. Just stick with Dignitary as it is ;)

OT PS: I've also made a little kingdom chooser program which includes Enterprise (along with my other favorite fan made cards -several from the fan card contests, my expansion of course, a couple from NoMoreFun's expansion, a few from Silverspawn's expansion, and I'll be adding a few from Co0kieL0rd's expansion too).

I feel honoured! But I'd advise you to ask me about the cards you want to include because my set is currently undergoing frequent change. It's definitely not as far developed as Enterprise.
That reminds me I need to update the kingdom generator I use to implement all the changes you made to your set. I want to test your cards but mine need a lot of testing, too. Boy, developing a set is a lot of work!
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #564 on: October 14, 2014, 03:54:43 pm »
0

Alternate Cathedral in case I need it:

Cathedral
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. +1 Buy. Pay any number of Trade tokens and trash that many cards from your hand. Take a Trade token.

Or to keep more the spirit of the original:

Cathedral
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. +1 Buy. Pay any number of Trade tokens and trash that many cards from your hand.

While this is in play, when you buy an Action card, take a Trade token.

OR:

Entrepreneur
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. +1 Buy. Pay any number of Trade tokens and trash that many cards from your hand.

While this is in play, when you buy a card you don't have a copy of in play, take a Trade token.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 04:10:40 pm by LastFootnote »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #565 on: October 14, 2014, 04:39:12 pm »
+1

Are coin tokens supposed to share a similar value on all cards? Trash one card seems to be worth much less than other effects that other cards can "buy" with tokens.

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #566 on: October 14, 2014, 04:41:20 pm »
0

Are coin tokens supposed to share a similar value on all cards? Trash one card seems to be worth much less than other effects that other cards can "buy" with tokens.

Maybe. Trashing is powerful, though. More so when you have a large selection of cards to choose from, like after drawing 3 cards.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #567 on: October 14, 2014, 04:48:37 pm »
+1

So, they are supposed to have a similar value? Or was maybe only directed to the second assumption?

I like the variety version, variety always makes the game more fun. That could cause you to buy unconventional cards. Rewarding you for buying Action cards doesn't really do anything, you want to buy action cards anyway. Well, maybe you green a little bit later. But probably not, because you don't care much about trashing anymore once you start to green.

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #568 on: October 14, 2014, 05:09:39 pm »
0

So, they are supposed to have a similar value?

Yes, they are meant to have roughly similar value. One token for one trashed card may be too weak. But I think it's worth testing.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #569 on: October 14, 2014, 07:08:55 pm »
+3

I played a game with a friend using the following kingdom cards:

Quote
Vagrant, Oasis, Forager, Develop, Gambler, Committee, Mining Village, Minion, Barrister, Altar

I chose the three enterprise cards because I like them, the rest was random.
I opened Gambler/Forager and my friend opened Gambler/Gambler. On my first gamble I had to trash my Domain (I figured it's the right decision to trash it 'cause I could get it back later) while my opponent got very lucky and trashed at least 6 cards with his Gamblers before they had to retire. He said Gambler was much fun to use.
He bought the only Committee but we focused on gaining with Altar. Once his Committee revealed Barrister and Minion which was the only tough decision for me (would I rather have him gain Barrister or Minion? ... definitely Barrister). Other than that, as expected, most of the time Committee offers non-decisions (there's only one reasonable choice). The player who chooses the card has the more interesting decision to make. Unfortunately, that Committee eventually dropped under the sofa and we didn't notice until the game was almost over  ::)
Minion was dominating the game, as usual. Barrister doesn't synergize with Minion at all. Still, 8 copies of it were bought and Domains changed proprietor a few times which surprised me because our decks were both pretty big. My friend won, the points from Domains didn't matter for the final score and we wouldn't have bought Barrister at all if we had anticipated were this was going. We agree it's a great card, just not on Minion boards :P
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 08:06:00 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #570 on: October 15, 2014, 01:43:01 pm »
0

Thanks for the test game, Co0kieL0rd! Yeah, I can't imagine Barrister is very useful in a Minion game. I'm glad it was fun for you guys, though. I have had 2-player games where the Domains won it for me, but they're not super-common. I think it's a more exciting card in 3 or 4-player games and I'm willing to live with that.

The decision you make with Committee (keeping or trashing a card) is almost always trivial (or non-existent in the case of a card that isn't in the Supply). The choice that the player to your left makes is meant to be the real decision and I have often found it to be a tough one. I think it's toughest when it's a choice between a bad card they'll trash and a good card they'll gain. Which is better for their deck? Especially when the good card is cheap, like Silver or Caravan, it's not clear whether it's better to gain a copy of it or trash an Estate. I think it's fine that the right decision is sometimes obvious. Embassy and Advisor often have obvious calls as well, and this is a similar choice.

Gambler/Committee is a pretty decent combo in my experience. Gambler clears away a lot of the trash so that Committee is gaining good cards more often.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 01:44:55 pm by LastFootnote »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #571 on: October 15, 2014, 03:14:06 pm »
+2

We played another game using the following kingdom cards:

Quote
Oracle, Great Hall, Convoy, Ironmonger, Trader, Terrace, Procession, Cathedral, Mandarin, Harem

Cathedral was a monster here, both because of the draw and especially because of its trashing ability, it just blatantly outclassed Convoy. Cathedral was also greatly supported by Ironmonger and Harem; the three synergize very smoothly.
We both pursued similar strategies but I focused on thinning earlier while my friend gained Silvers with Trader first. We built big engines with Silvers and Harems as our payload, and eventually we both trashed our Traders and Convoys (Sorry, Convoy! My cogs can take care of themselves.). With the Harem-Cathedral combo I was able to green earlier and trash faster which put me in a significant lead that he could never surmount.
I also used Ironmonger more than Terrace because of the synergy mentioned above. Terrace was a mere village for us. I think we both used the mulligan option just once each but gaining a few Terraces early provided the first Trade Tokens Cathedral needed to get started. Later we just loaded up on tokens and no one used them anymore.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 03:15:10 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #572 on: October 16, 2014, 06:21:23 pm »
+2

I think that's a worthy goal. As I come up with more on-theme cards, I am bound to cut some of the off-theme ones. That being said, I think a set full of one-shots—even optional one-shots—is bound to be a little lopsided. Meaning, where are all the Kingdom cards at the end of the game? In the trash. Trade token cards are a way around that, which is why I embraced that mechanic. I would argue that even when a card gives Trade tokens other than on-buy or on-gain, it still falls under the limited-uses theme because the uses are so heavily gated.
I agree that too many one-shots would be overwhelming. I also agree that Trade tokens are a smart way to get around too many one-shots, which is why I included them in this list:
Accounting for all the cards, 9 of the 24 cards are one-shots or pseudo-one-shots: Barter, Convoy, Floodgate, Fund, Gambler, Jubilee, Redistrict, Terrace, and Vendor.
I did not include Craftsman or Cathedral since they make Trade tokens literally and nearly infinite (respectively) making them not nearly so gated as Convoy or Floodgate-- even Barter can provide many Trade tokens. Conscripts, on the other hand, is not a one-shot at all since the cards that gain them are not one-shots.

my 2c: Every expansion has a few off-theme cards, and that's fine. nothing wrong with that. I think Dignitary especially is great as is.
Mechanically off-theme cards are fine, especially if they are necessary to round out all the abilities needed in a set, but on-theme cards are vastly preferred-- and that preference becomes stronger as the mechanic becomes harder to see. Right now, I don't believe a player would immediately identify "conditional one-shots\limited use abilities" as the primary theme of Enterprise without being told.

Dignitary is a fine card: Reasonably strong, flexible, and provides choices on-play, but it, the "cares about Treasures" theme, as well as the other off-theme cards ultimately obfuscate the "limited use" theme from the player. Further, with the introduction of Trade tokens, I believe that a set of 25 to 27 thematic cards that fulfill the mechanical theme of Enterprise can be found that will fulfill all the needs of an expansion. I encourage every designer to not settle for off-theme cards if not absolutely necessary. Any set that is pursuing some mechanical idea should do so to the fullest extent that it can, and I think there is more room to explore in the "limited use abilities" that Enterprise possesses.
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Dominion: Avarice 1.1a, my fan expansion with "in-games-using-this" cards and Edicts (updated Oct 18, 2021)

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #573 on: October 20, 2014, 06:32:59 pm »
+3

So, yeah. I haven't had much Enterprise playtesting since May because all my Dominion time has been taken up with playtesting the next official expansion. A very big thank you to those of you who have been playtesting Enterprise cards during this period when I wasn't able to.
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #574 on: October 20, 2014, 06:45:27 pm »
+2

So... any cards that you are going to remove from Enterprise?  ;)
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