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Author Topic: Dominion Regional Qualifier, June 23 2012 @ Oakland University, Michigan  (Read 20859 times)

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questioneer

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Just a little note.  My sbcglobal email account got hacked so it doesn't work.  Please use the gmail account on the flyer instead- shilohc888@gmail.com.  With 10 days left or so, its very safe to say that there is room for everyone.  We have 25 or so signed up so far.  We will have room for 64 just in case but that's not probable.  So if you didn't register just show up with your entry fees and we'll get you in.  See you at the tourny!!! ;D
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ednever

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Anyone here going to this?

Goblue1616 and I just registered and will be there.

Ed
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Kirian

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Anyone here going to this?

Goblue1616 and I just registered and will be there.

Ed

I was originally registered but won't be able to go after all for multiple reasons, alas.  Perhaps next year.
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Robz888

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Anyone here going to this?

Goblue1616 and I just registered and will be there.

Ed

I plan to be there!
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shark_bait

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Anyone here going to this?

Goblue1616 and I just registered and will be there.

Ed

As will I! 

Edit:  I will be the guy wearing a blue shirt with some marine life one it.  Look for me!  :)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 07:55:17 am by shark_bait »
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

ednever

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Nice.

Will be cool to meet you guys.

Are either of you going tonight?

Let's try our best NOT to play each other in the prelims so we can meet in the semis/finals.

I'll wear a green tshirt tomorrow (brown hoodie tonight). Maybe an Ironman baseball cap if I remembered to bring it.

Ed
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rrenaud

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Nice.

Will be cool to meet you guys.

Are either of you going tonight?

Let's try our best NOT to play each other in the prelims so we can meet in the semis/finals.

I'll wear a green tshirt tomorrow (brown hoodie tonight). Maybe an Ironman baseball cap if I remembered to bring it.

Ed

Shadiness ;P.

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Robz888

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I don't know what I'll be wearing, but just about everything I own is blue. Uh, I am blond haired... my name is Robby... oh, I'm left handed! That'll give me away.
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theory

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I suspect he'd look something like this, or possibly this.
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shark_bait

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I don't know what I'll be wearing, but just about everything I own is blue. Uh, I am blond haired... my name is Robby... oh, I'm left handed! That'll give me away.

Those lefties... making a scene at dinner parties across the globe.  :P

To avoid hard feelings if it wasn't apparent... jk, you lefties are pretty awesome!

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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

questioneer

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Plenty of room for everyone if you are in the area- just show up- we have 25-30 players.  See you tomorrow!!! :)

BTW- I also am a lefty and I will be wearing something cool- don't know what yet.
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ednever

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Just finished the tournament. Very well run.

Full update to come tonight.

For now, know that Robz, shark bait, goblue and I all played each other in the finals and/or semi finals.

And, if you want to test your strategy chops, this was the final kingdom:

Loan
steward
Fortune teller
Pirate ship
Remake
scout
cartographer
Lab
Expand
Bank

How would you play it?

One more tidbit: one of the semi final sets was random, but could easily be designed to make scout powerful. So good in fact it was almost the third pile - and not due to a pile rush...

More to come when I get in front of a computer instead of this iPhone...

Ed
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shark_bait

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A brief bit more to add.  I went 4 - 1 in the prelims.  Losing only to GoBlue on turns in a Workshop/Gardens rush.  Then in the semifinals, I was matched up with ednever and GoBlue.  I ended up being defeated by ed 50 - 48 - 43 (for GoBlue I think) in the semis. 

All in all, it was a great time.  A comment about the format, it honestly didn't seem like the prelims mattered.  At all.  If you won 2 games out of 5, you were in.  The winner of the tournament was actually an alternate who had only won a single game (although he had a two or three second places).  My thoughts are that less prelim games should be played and score based on place (as opposed to winner only counts and 2-4 are all the same).  Then there is more time for a few more games in the finals so that the games between the best players aren't one and done. 

But regardless, I had a great time and met some great people.  And in the end, it's just fun to play dominion.  So thanks are out to Shiloh for organizing such a great and fun tourney!
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

questioneer

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Tournament went great.  Everyone seemed very pleased and most importantly all had a great time.
Some tidbits...

22 players in all- not bad for the first qualifier
We had a few players fly in from Seattle and Arizona- in hindsight, I will give 2-4 special prizes out for players who fly in from far distances.

Format- 5 rounds for everyone.  Players try to get as many wins as possible.  Half of the players- 11 would make it to Single-Elimination rounds.  The problem I had with 11 players is that I wanted 4 games for the semi-finals, getting a winner each and make a 4-player final.  With 4 games in the semis I would have a 3-3-3-2 type games and I could not have a 2 player game.  So I need to add another player.  There were a couple of 1 win players that probably wouldn't have gotten in if we would have had a few more players in the tournament.  Coincidently, one of the 1-win players made it to the finals and won the whole thing.

In his defense, I've watched the player play once before and he is a very dedicated player.  In fact, he only won 1 game in pre-lims but I believe he had 2 or 3 second place finishes.  So his win record really wasn't reflective of his ability.  So in a sense, it didn't surprise me that he won- though he really had to fight for it in the semis and finals- which were both very very close games.  All the players seemed fine with his play and enjoyed the Single Elimination rounds.

We will definitely press to get more players in.  My desire is to get at least 32 players so that we don't have these issues.  The more players you have these issues tend to statistically fizzle away. 

This definitely makes me think about a way to incorporate 2nd and 3rd places finishes in games, however VPoints cannot be used b/c of the high ceiling for points in a game like for Prosperity.  I think I could establish a "tournament point" system that is simple enough to use.  However, this would undermine the priority of a "straight-up wins" approach which is the current system in the Nationals and the Worlds.  In those tournaments, second place means nothing.  Its high-risk, high reward.  That system still gives the underdog a chance as all they need focus on is getting a couple wins.  In either case though, once you get to single-elimination rounds its win or go home.

As I looked at our tournament, the people that made it to Single Elimination rounds deserved to be there for the most part.  The benefit of playing 5 rounds as opposed to 3 or 4 is that the better players WILL rise to the top and gain more wins.  I think the current format we have is a great balance of a good taste of the cut-throat competition that one would taste in the Nationals and Worlds yet still gives people a chance to make it to Single Elimination rounds.

Playing devil's advocate, one could say that even though our tournment copys that of the National and Worlds, in the end only ONE person will go there so why should we feel the need to copy their format- let the winner deal with the cut-throat competition of the Nationals and Worlds when they get there.  This is a great argument, which makes me seriously consider a simple "tournament point" system format that rewards people who get few wins but several 2nd place finishes.  I definitely think there can be tweeks and room for improvement to add this kind of system in place.

There is also the possiblity to have 2 days of 4 rounds each, giving players the ability to give it a shot a second time if the first day goes bad for them.  Though that may water down the attendence as some players will qualify the first day and not play the second day possibly.  If our attendance gets past 40 I think I will consider this.

BTW- Time frame- 40min seemed about right.  We finished early at least 3 out of the first 5 rounds with mostly 3 player games so that means with 4 player games 40 minutes rounds is solid.  Most games finished between 20-40 min.

People also seemed to enjoy the sets a lot.  The Pre-lim sets were pre-chosen and everyone had access to these sets on the web/flyer.  The Single Elimination sets were randomized at the tournament- there were a couple of times where we randomized a couple of times until we knew a good sets would show up and seem to get some good play.  We did leave a set that had Seaside and Intrigue with Sabatour and Witch with no blue cards.  We purposely did that to throw a wrench in there.  I think you always gotta throw in a set that challenges players in different ways it can't always be candy- we only did that in Single-Elimination though where there was a little more time.

Also, I guess there is current debate about players who start first in a 3-4 player game having an advantage.  Until we get more clarification on this from the top dawgs of the game and Donald X, I simply tell players if one person has an issue with it, do a random draw for players to go first or roll a die or good ol' "paper, rock, scissors"- that seems to solve it. 

For those that went or not, what do you think???  I want to get some good feedback while it fresh in our minds. :)
For those that came thanks for your great sportmanship and support.

Shiloh
"The Questioneer"
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 10:44:08 am by questioneer »
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shark_bait

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One comment about the games would regard the premade sets.  Specifically regarding the pure base set that had gardens in it.  In this game, there was only 1 optimal strategy.  I know that both robz and I played it and both times, the game was over in about 5 minutes with the game being decided by one player having an extra turn over another player.   The players just bought Workshops/Gardens and anyone who didn't, lost because there was no other strategy to counter it.  There is the argument that if one player doesn't know that winning strategy then what does it matter b/c the better player will win.  But on the flip side, a game between two skilled players comes solely down to both luck of the draw and turn order.  With premade sets, it would be nice to avoid games like this so that good players have a chance to show why they are good players.

All of the other sets I played were fantastic but the few sets that were like that were a little dull to play.  To add my thoughts, imo the base game itself isn't very complex.  Games get more and more interesting as all of the expansions are mixed together.  It would be fun if for future preliminary rounds, the kingdoms could have more representation from different sets (I think all the kingdoms had 10 cards from a single expansion).
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

questioneer

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I agree sharky.  This will be changed next year.  All Pre-lim sets will involve at least 2 sets.

Yes, I put the Workshop/Gardens set in there as a test and get feedback.  Your opinion was the general consensus.  Other than this combo, what other combos are troublesome???

Also, for next year I plan on doing the 5-round pre-lims differently.  I will use a "tournament point" system.  It will go like this: 

1st place= 5pts (includes extra bonus point for the win)
2nd place= 3pts
3rd place= 2pts
4th place= 1pts

Highest pts. (top half) will advance to Single Elimination rounds.  I think this will be much better for all.
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shark_bait

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I agree sharky.  This will be changed next year.  All Pre-lim sets will involve at least 2 sets.

Yes, I put the Workshop/Gardens set in there as a test and get feedback.  Your opinion was the general consensus.  Other than this combo, what other combos are troublesome???

Also, for next year I plan on doing the 5-round pre-lims differently.  I will use a "tournament point" system.  It will go like this: 

1st place= 5pts (includes extra bonus point for the win)
2nd place= 3pts
3rd place= 2pts
4th place= 1pts

Highest pts. (top half) will advance to Single Elimination rounds.  I think this will be much better for all.

I personally didn't have a problem with any other sets, but I think some other players said that one of the sets was solely a BM+X type of game. 

As for the gardens game, the main problem is that was the only good thing present.  There was chapel, the supreme engine enabler, but there was nothing to build an engine with.  No +buy and no actions that did anything useful for an engine.  The presence of Witch is pointless b/c that just slows the pace of the game for non-gardeners and doesn't affect gardeners b/c all they need is a workshop in hand.
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

atariman486

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I had a blast at this tournament as well! I wore an orange shirt, lol. Thank you to Shiloh for organizing it and therefore sitting out on the tournament you wanted to play in (I believe they call this 'taking one for the team').

Highlights for me:
-Playing with a bunch of awesome people!
-Winning one of the base card sets in a raffle - love the curse art with the raven!
-Going 4-1 in prelims, though that was mostly due to getting lucky and not having to play any games with shark, Robz, and ednever :) My loss was in a game with goblue (who came in 2nd I think)
-Winning a game by 1 over an opponent who had purchased a curse early to ambassador, and ended with it still in deck :) To top it off, his last turn he played salvager with curse in hand, but needed to salvage a card with some value in order to obtain a province.
-Watching that final game! Went right down to the wire, and really everyone was in it at the end. It was just a really bizarre kingdom.

For suggestions on the tournament format, I like the idea of giving weighted points to different places. I was going to suggest 8-5-2 or 6-3-1 for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, but that was mainly because it was either the cost or point value of province-duchy-estate and I thought that was cool :) But 5-3-2-1 would actually give more significance to a 1st place finish, which seems a requirement given that's the real goal. For breaking potential ties, I've seen before where you keep track of the cumulative difference in points between your score and first for your game. So those who were closer to 1st point-wise are favored in the event of a tie. While this may actually place a slight disadvantage on prosperity games where the spread might be bigger because of colonies, it seems mostly fair, and is after all only for breaking ties.

Really, so glad I went to this though. It exceeded my expectations in the fun department, which were already pretty high.
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Ozle

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But who won the Mafia side game tough?
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theory

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Robz888 was on track to win the tournament, but was lynched by a vote of his fellow players in the final round.
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Robz888

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Robz888 was on track to win the tournament, but was lynched by a vote of his fellow players in the final round.

Gar! In all seriousness I was super closing to winning--well Ed was closer, fine--and man did I blow it on that last board, the Priate Ship one. I'll write up my (very positive) thoughts about the tournament soon.
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Invincible Overlord

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Also, for next year I plan on doing the 5-round pre-lims differently.  I will use a "tournament point" system.  It will go like this: 

1st place= 5pts (includes extra bonus point for the win)
2nd place= 3pts
3rd place= 2pts
4th place= 1pts

Highest pts. (top half) will advance to Single Elimination rounds.  I think this will be much better for all.

This is what they did at the tournament at Gencon last year (3 rounds 1st/2nd/3rd 5/3/1 points). You still need to have a couple of 1st place wins to have enough points to advance.
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questioneer

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Also, for next year I plan on doing the 5-round pre-lims differently.  I will use a "tournament point" system.  It will go like this: 

1st place= 5pts (includes extra bonus point for the win)
2nd place= 3pts
3rd place= 2pts
4th place= 1pts

Highest pts. (top half) will advance to Single Elimination rounds.  I think this will be much better for all.

Just saw this on the homepage here for the online tourny:

For a four-player game:
 
6 points for the winner
4 points for second place
2 points for third place
0 points for fourth place
 
For a three-player game:
 
6 points for the winner
3 points for second place
0 points for third place
 
Ties will be broken in favor of most wins, then a playoff.


I like this a lot.  This is a more refined "tournament point" system than mine.  I will probably use this next year.  I would change the last players points to "1" instead of "0" for psychological reasons.  It would suck to end the day with "0" in my opinion. 

The only thing I don't like about the online tourny is the 4-pod/4games idea.  Playing the same people for 4 rounds is not really fun for players.  Don't know why they did this.  Simplicity I suppose.
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Invincible Overlord

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I agree sharky.  This will be changed next year.  All Pre-lim sets will involve at least 2 sets.

Yes, I put the Workshop/Gardens set in there as a test and get feedback.  Your opinion was the general consensus.  Other than this combo, what other combos are troublesome???

Also, for next year I plan on doing the 5-round pre-lims differently.  I will use a "tournament point" system.  It will go like this: 

1st place= 5pts (includes extra bonus point for the win)
2nd place= 3pts
3rd place= 2pts
4th place= 1pts

Highest pts. (top half) will advance to Single Elimination rounds.  I think this will be much better for all.

I personally didn't have a problem with any other sets, but I think some other players said that one of the sets was solely a BM+X type of game. 

As for the gardens game, the main problem is that was the only good thing present.  There was chapel, the supreme engine enabler, but there was nothing to build an engine with.  No +buy and no actions that did anything useful for an engine.  The presence of Witch is pointless b/c that just slows the pace of the game for non-gardeners and doesn't affect gardeners b/c all they need is a workshop in hand.

I actually did the Village/Smithy/Library combo and spun through my deck quite effectively, much to the chagrin of Ednever... However I thought I had card-counted his deck to 48 cards, and not 50. Hence he won 50 points that round to my 47. That and I only had 29 cards with my 3 gardens in my deck...  :o

Had I counted correctly, I would have tried to end the game by expiring a 3rd pile earlier...

It was a great experience, and 4 out of my 5 games were very close. Back to the grindstone...
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questioneer

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Robz888 was on track to win the tournament, but was lynched by a vote of his fellow players in the final round.

Gar! In all seriousness I was super closing to winning--well Ed was closer, fine--and man did I blow it on that last board, the Priate Ship one. I'll write up my (very positive) thoughts about the tournament soon.

I was going to "seed" that final by record to see who went first, but when I got to the table you guys had all agreed to draw cards so I left it alone.  Next year for Single Elimination rounds- starting player will go by seed from top to bottom.

All the Semi-finals and Finals were very close- loved that. :)
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