Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[gkrieg13]

@EFHW, I was seeing a lot of posts like that last game too, when Math was town.

One thing I've noticed about Math is that he sort of describes things in black and white. In a way, it makes sense for a game like mafia because either you're scum or you're town. But he doesn't often seem to leave room for the uncertainty of things like "you might be town" or "you might be right, but you might be wrong." But the way he said I'm either super helpful or lying scum, it's like he had this gut reaction and he didn't even consider the in between.

And I think I was seeing that from Math and having a hard time not scum reading it in Oz as well.

I'll be honest. I'm still having trouble not reading every third thing Math says as scum. But I think there are enough reasons to consider him town right now that he shouldn't be the exile today. IMO we need to look elsewhere.

Why shouldn't math be the exile today? We have many wagons to look at on him, so knowing his flip would be very informative, and also, people have made pretty strong stances on him either way.

[gkrieg13]

Okay, fair point on D2 busy. I am missing the town!joth pushing the game forward bit. Instead he's doing that scummy thing of "wait for it..." and we wait.

I know I am especially suspicious of him because I am townreading so many people and he is on the edge of that (out past the edge are 2.7 and gkrieg). So, while I am not voting for him yet, I think that is probably where I end up. If he's not scum, then at least his flip is informative.  (So freaking smart for scum to off someone whose flip gave us no information at all. Grrrrr.)

Not exactly sure why, but the last parenthetical really seems like Didds waving her fist at herself.

[gkrieg13]

going to iso Joth and faust, will post thoughts then go from there.

I’m trying something new. Which in itself should probably suggest town for reasons I’m not going to spell out.

New things are fun, let's not exile you D1

Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.

I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.

Just you wait. It's going to crack this game wide open.

Its going to be a good one, lets not exile Joth D2.

That being said, I feel as thought Joth is playing a very open unafraid game that I associate with town. Basically, you know who you are, you don't know who anyone else is, and you just go for it. His D1 reads evolved in a very (in my opinion) natural way as opposed to scum trying to force a read. Opening D2 talking about reading LaLight's posts and deciding to vote MiX could be WIFOM coming from scum who did that analysis at night, but it felt very town just rereading the game to me.

Really, nothing from Joth sticks out as scummy.  I disagree with him at points, but I don't see his positions coming from scummy motives.

This post about Joth is very reasonable from e.

[gkrieg13]

Okay I just said I'm not joining the mathdude wagon but I have to put my vote somewhere more useful than where it is, and I prefer mathdude to the other options. Sorry folks, but I'm going to have to turn it in. Might be around for another 10 minutes or so if there are any last-minute questions or anything.

Vote: mathdude

I realize I'm after those 10 minutes, and I'm guessing you voted me solely for self-preservation since I had the most votes. But you really should have looked at one of the people others have actually expressed a willingness to vote for. Someone whose some will actually give us reads on other people once we see a flip.

I honestly don't get the votes on me. There's nothing to defend against.

e voted me early, hasn't moved, hasn't participated much.

Iguana is the only vote I respect. He's looked at others, and decided to stick with me. It's wrong, but I respect it. And until his post just before this, it was like a tunnel, joth-like, not planning to go anywhere else (though I can no longer say that, since he's now said he's willing to move to get an exile).

gkrieg had a naked vote, I believe as well. And he hasn't said much else... regarding me or others. Just let the vote stick.

If we're going to exile someone, Jimmmmm seems the most helpful, and IMO, most likely to be scum.
EFHW should also be good tp get future reads on people, but I think she's town so I won't vote there.
Joth would also be a good vote, or maybe MiX.

I like this post.  Just honest run-through on the wagon.  2 lurker votes, good vote from iguana, self-preservation from Jimmmmm.  Feels like frustrated town (maybe frustrated isn't the right word, but something along those lines). My reread leaves me much townier on math.

vote: faust

MiX, did you ever talk about why you opened up on faust? Don't answer, I am reading you next.  I will find it if it is there.

Is it just that post that lands you townie on mathdude? It seems like you skipped over the posts that other people have found scummy.

[gkrieg13]

I'm sorry but the case for faust is not forthcoming because I have decided that faust is probably town for reasons. I will continue re-reading and come at you guys with a great, wonderful, game-changing case on someone else TBD.

Unvote

Wow. Ok. So with this, joth slips into the mode of fading into the background that other people were saying he does in his scum games.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: faust

When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.

Or gkrieg.

Interested in hearing more about your faust vote. Seems very....random? I mean, you vote faust then just completely ignore both before and after.  By my count, you have 4 posts interacting with faust prior to your vote and a single post after your "when you can't find scum its faust" post. Did you even look at faust or just felt like you could get some traction on faust because no one will take the time to reread everything he posted and you can build a wagon of people who start getting antsy when faust stays alive too long (thinking of the whole "If Robz is alive D4 he is scum" line of thinking, which I know faust has experienced as well)?

I don't know, your vote just doesn't sit well with me. 

vote: iguana

I'm agreeing a lot with e right now

[gkrieg13]

Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.

And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.

That's my general impression.

Read this game.

So, I was reading this game, and I was like, holy crap, Joth is playing so good here. I knew he was scum, did not know his partners (except McMc, who flipped D1), did not know his role. Then... this:

I found the traitor role to be very freeing. My reads were fake, but my interactions were genuine, which made the game like 50% easier, if that makes sense.

See, I think I get Joth. He has a really hard time with scum because he thrives on uncertainty. Knowing his partners takes the uncertainty out of the game and replaces it with duplicity, and I think he has a really hard time with that.

As a result, in the one example of a mafia game where he really played his heart out and fooled people, he was a traitor. The uncertainty was very much alive because he didn't know his partners.

So I guess if I am reading Joth correctly here, then that's because we are cut from the same cloth in that way. Both of us really struggle with being mafia. So as someone else who tends to lurk as scum and overplay as town, I guess I am seeing similar things from Joth's record and his current game. So he's actually one of the people I'm more confident in. The fact that he was traitor in that game really seals it.

I think Joth is town.

My issue with joth is that it looks like he is playing the kind of game you play if you know you are bad at playing scum. He regularly does things to avoid interacting with people. His going back and reading LaLight's posts is an easy way to create reads and look like you are townie (scumhunting) without actually having to interact with people. Same thing with saying he has a case on faust, and stringing it along to just end up with nothing.

[gkrieg13]

Doubly good becuase now this is no longer OMGUS:

Vote: 2.71828.....

Interesting. This is not the conclusion I expected faust to draw.

[2.71828.....]

Sorry, I kind of disappeared over the weekend.

I will read the people I haven't read, then go back and look at our top wagons. I should be around most of the day tomorrow except a few hours leading up to deadline (dinner, getting kids to bed), but I will be here at deadline

[gkrieg13]

I would like to hear more from gkrieg about EFHW (and in general of course).

An EFHW who kind of hangs back and doesn't seem to develop strong reads tends to be a town EFHW. I think she is town here.

I was just recently in a game with her where we were both town and the game came down to the final 3 (BSG 2?) and she read a lot like she does here.

[gkrieg13]

But also,

Vote: gkrieg

Will you join me, iguana?

I will join you fausty!

Vote: gkrieg

So these two posts are how my wagon starts? and I'm at X-1?

[2.71828.....]

Join me on faust

[gkrieg13]

But also,

Vote: gkrieg

Will you join me, iguana?

Do you scumread gkrieg?

Would you answer the question "why are you voting gkrieg" meaningfully if I asked it now? Do you think I would consider the answer meaningful?

Why are you voting gkrieg?

I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.

Ok.

Vote: gkrieg

I would argue that I have done townie things this game. I have been making cases on the people I scum read, I've been sharing town reads of players when I find them. I haven't been very active, but I have been trying to get into the game by asking people questions (which they don't usually respond to).

Also, how is this due to PoE with 11 people alive? You don't find anyone scummy right now? You would rather just exile a lurker that no one has really voiced hard reads about?

[gkrieg13]

I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.

Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.

In a game where we no-exiled D1, the N1 kill was a lurker, and there has been a lot of discussion around several people (faust, joth, math), you want to exile someone because of PoE and XAL? How does my flip help you for the rest of the game?

When I flip town and someone like e is killed in the night, where does that leave town for the rest of the game?

[gkrieg13]

I'm kind of shocked that no one amongst all the veteran players voting gkrieg has brought this up yet.

This is why I was scumreading MiX and faust. As e points out, they are doing the vast majority of the posting and the laziest possible scumhunting. It feels like scum trying to lead town down a road to nowhere.

Now I know I said that I had a townread on faust but man I'm not sure now.

The case I was going to make was about MiX and faust playing a truly audacious scum game because their metas allow them to get away with it and they know it. I know that's a big swing, but tell me it doesn't pretty neatly explain the game so far!

Exactly this.

[gkrieg13]

I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.

It’s not just the lurking… it’s that he’s outside of my town list. Now, I know my town list it too big, but if reduce my voting pool to those outside of it, it makes the choice easier.

So, since the tides are turning back to town!Joth, whose on the outs for you?

I don't think lurkers tend to be on people's town lists.

[gkrieg13]

I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.

Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.

I also find myself agreeing with faust's statements here.  And I add to that the fact that gkrieg camped on me all day, D1, with very flimsy reasoning (and when I responded to his one actual concern, that he thought I said "we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers", even though I responded to that, showing that's not at all what I said, and he didn't respond anymore).

He's posting just enough to feel like he's participating, but he's not really adding anything.  Just trying to stay relevant.  And it's not working.
--snip--

I actually thought I did respond to that. Either way, it was the way you furthered the idea from MiX. Instead of saying, hey that's a good idea, I will look into the lurkers and pick one to target, you just passed on the buck, saying that we as a whole should do it. That is something that looks townie, without actually moving anything forward or expressing reads on any of the lurkers.

I've been pretty busy, and getting very behind in this game, where it takes quite a bit of time to catch up properly and not really miss things. Trying to stay relevant is not a bad thing, as it keeps me engaged in the game.

[mathdude]

But also,

Vote: gkrieg

Will you join me, iguana?

I will join you fausty!

Vote: gkrieg

So these two posts are how my wagon starts? and I'm at X-1?

Reminds me of the late D1 wagon on me. You and e sat on me most of the day, then all of a sudden I was 1 of the final 2 wagons.

I honestly don't know what the case is on me. But I do agree that there are finally enough thoughts and stances on me that it could help us D3 if I'm exiled today. However, that still puts us behind, so it would be better to just vote out scum.

gkrieg hasn't said anything to convince me he's town. But he does raise some valid points on faust. I don't know if both could be scum (I guess maybe... if he's godfather, and he figures it's better to bus a goon?) But likely at least 1 of them are.

And on top of that, there are definitely more people's opinions stated on faust, compared to gkrieg. I think a switch to faust could be a good idea.

PPE: 4

[gkrieg13]

And gkrieg is a high caliber player, who has also done nothing but push Math and lurk. So I would say that yes the things he has done are scummy things.

Thanks for the flattery. If you look at any of my games, I am a much better player once some flips have happened and I'm able to go back and reread things and form opinions. I have a pretty bad short-term memory, so if I don't look at things all at once, I don't tend to form opinions that last, so I would rather read things all at once to form stronger reads.

This whole game has been a little like a long D1 for my style of play. Rereading people right now does not allow for analysis with flips to inform my reads on people, so it's all the part of the game that I don't like very much and am not very good at.

Which is why I was willing to change my vote at EoD D1. I just really wanted to get an exile so we could have a good flip.

[MiX]

I mean, faust is still town. Do I need to talk about this?

[mathdude]

I mean, faust is still town. Do I need to talk about this?

You don't have to. But your stance is very helpful if we flip faust instead of me or gkrieg.

[gkrieg13]

Okay, Gkrieg reread is the only one I have time for since it's going to be so short:

So his first several posts are meta-related. In a way that just reflects where we were at that stage of the game, but it's also worth noting that it's incredibly easy for scum to give that type of participation and nothing more.

so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is but he's being pleasant and helpful.

idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.

Vote: EFHW

Wait a minute - are you salty too?

Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.

This doesn't seem like scum!EFHW. Too bold.

To me, this seems potentially scummy. Partially because I am scumreading EFHW but also because it doesn't strike me as a particularly bold post that you could form a townread off of that. It does look like gkrieg and EFHW could be partners.

Still haven’t reread. I have just been reading things while I have time. Nothing has convinced me that mathdude is not scum yet.

Vote: mathdude

This is basically gkrieg's only contribution to D2. Just want to say, it is hard to fake changing your reads. Especially so if you are busy and having trouble keeping up as scum. But it is incredibly easy to just post a read, give a reason, then stick with that for the entire game. And that is what gkrieg is doing here so far.

Also, while I initially was townreading gkrieg for his case on Math, I think that because Math is an easy player to pick on, he's an easy target. So I can see the scum narrative there too in terms of trying to pick a town player as scum who looks scummy in order to have a case and look town. And then you naturally end up on someone who is misexiled often.

So, to me, it's not just gkrieg lurking. It's also the content of the lurking.

Ugh, I just posted something long in relation to this post and then closed the window... stupid PPEs.

Anyway, it is easy for someone to change their reads. Everyone posts townie and scummy things, so you just cherrypick one of their posts and say it has changed your reads. Especially when there haven't been many flips.

At that point, math still hadn't done anything that screamed town to me, and a vote on someone is better than no vote.

[jotheonah]

I think all three scum are active and they’re just, idk, good at the game.

I really think Swowl is likely to be scum. But in the name of consolidation I’m moving to vote: mathdude who I at least think is more likely to be scum than gkrieg.

I would also switch to faust if that got viable. He’s being intentionally obtuse about this gkrieg/Swowl thing in a way that I don’t think town!faust does unless he knows something.


As for the TvT thing I think I just got swept up in a shorthand everyone else was using without really thinking about it. It was somewhat unclear I’ll admit.

The top of this post is a contradiction, no? Swowl is not active

He’s been quite active day 2.

[jotheonah]

Well, at least let me catch up reading. I'm excited to get to the case on me.

Don’t be too excited because as far as I can tell there isn’t one.

[jotheonah]

Sorry I’m having a lurky D2. I am reading along and planning to do some rereading but life is busy rn.

I thought you were going to give us the incredible case you have built on me. I guess those were empty promises.

Just you wait. It's going to crack this game wide open.

Not sure why joth keeps promising this, but not just doing it.

It’s a bit. It’s really funny.